New Jersey

[vdeane]

Boy, it's got to be hard leaving the house with such sensibilities.  I don't feel it's the sign's job to be anything but clear and informative and thus safe.  When the TTF is healthy again (stop laughing) maybe beautiful can be discussed.

Not really.  NYSDOT signs tend to look good, and as someone who both lives and works in the suburbs, I don't have to deal with run-down areas.

What's TTF?

Well, the signs are harder to read with the black border, for one.

Again, I have never found this to be the case.

I do.  When I look at them, my eyes focus on the border and not the rest of the shield.  Plus, if white on black was the best contrast, it would be what we use for guide signs instead of green on white.  Maybe it's that I have young eyes?  Or the fact that I've been staring at freeway signage ever since I was an infant?

Having the black border on guide signs has always been New Jersey's thing - and should continue to be. Plus, it matches up with the assembly markers that also have a black border, and really, there's NO harm in NJDOT's use of the black bordered US / State route, so I honestly don't see what the big deal is.

Well, the signs are harder to read with the black border, for one.  Plus, road signs should be beautiful; the yellow background CR shields in particular make me want to gouge my eyes out.  The borders look VERY sloppy.

Please provide proof that they are prohibited by the MUTCD - if there is no such... FWHA has no leg to stand on.

Beautiful. *scoff*

Things like this make states unique - if NJ has to change, then I would argue California must change their ways.

If I had my way, the entire universe would be one big work of art.

Personally, I wouldn't mind if California had to change.  Caltrans signage makes me want to throw up.

FYI, I'm not against uniqueness.  I would mourn if all the NYSDOT regions and NYSTA standardized their mile markers, for example.  And even though I advocate for NY to convert to mile-based numbers since it's a better system, the sequential numbers will always have a place in my heart.  And I love Canadian signage (Ontario's inability to keep its font size consistent notwithstanding).

Well, what most states do is a black outline of the shield shape.

That's what I'd do too.

[hbelkins]

I do.  When I look at them, my eyes focus on the border and not the rest of the shield.

Could that be because you, like most of us, aren't used to that practice because it's not widely used outside of New Jersey? I've seen a few examples in some other states, and because it's so unusual, it automatically jumps out at you.

[PHLBOS]

"Should" is not defined in the MUTCD the same as in the English language. "Should" doesn't mean "we recommend this, but do as you will." "Should" means, "You have to do this unless you have a sound engineering reason not to." In contrast, "shall" means, "You can't have a policy in place that goes against this, but you can contravene in individual cases where it's impossible to comply." Is there a sound engineering reason to keep the black border, or is it just an aesthetic choice? I'd argue the latter, unless someone can demonstrate the added cost of cutting out a US shield (or printing it directly on the sign, with today's technology) versus attaching a separate black-background shield.

Although this is OT, if that is indeed MUTCD's definition of the word should; then why are local townships/cities/boroughs in PA (primarily southeastern PA) allowed to erect & use STOP signs as a means of speed control on their (non-PennDOT) roads even though the wording of MUTCD Section 2B.04.05 states:

YIELD or STOP signs should not be used for speed control.

Heck, over 15 years ago; one road near me, the township actually took it back from PennDOT so that they could erect 3 (later 4) STOP along the main road, one of them was at an intersection w/a dead-end street.

I also know that anyone who receives tickets from running these particular STOP signs usually has the charge on the ticket listed as failing to obey a traffic-control device rather than failing to stop at a STOP sign.  Supposedly, the former does not have as stiff a penalty vs. the latter; although I personally think it's their (police/township) way of avoiding being brought to court if the defendant just happens to be aware of MUTCD's criteria for erecting STOP signs.

[Pete from Boston]

Boy, it's got to be hard leaving the house with such sensibilities.  I don't feel it's the sign's job to be anything but clear and informative and thus safe.  When the TTF is healthy again (stop laughing) maybe beautiful can be discussed.

Not really.  NYSDOT signs tend to look good, and as someone who both lives and works in the suburbs, I don't have to deal with run-down areas.

What's TTF?

The perennially destitute New Jersey Transportation Trust Fund.

If I had my way, the entire universe would be one big work of art.

Oh, to be young again.  In any case, art need not be tied to beauty.  But eye of the beholder, and all that.

[jeffandnicole]

Bill to prohibit NJ MVC from turning over vehicle information to other states when requested for automated enforcement violations gaining traction: http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/senate_transportation_chairman_wants_to_hit_the_gas_on_anti-traffic_camera_bill_the_auditor.html

NJ does have red light cameras, under a 5 year "test".  The testing period is set to expire in December, at which case the state can say all contracts are null and void, or continue with the program.  How well is the program working?  Depends on who you ask...and based on the respondent, the answers are fairly predictable.

[Roadrunner75]

Bill to prohibit NJ MVC from turning over vehicle information to other states when requested for automated enforcement violations gaining traction: http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2014/08/senate_transportation_chairman_wants_to_hit_the_gas_on_anti-traffic_camera_bill_the_auditor.html

NJ does have red light cameras, under a 5 year "test".  The testing period is set to expire in December, at which case the state can say all contracts are null and void, or continue with the program.  How well is the program working?  Depends on who you ask...and based on the respondent, the answers are fairly predictable.

The program works great for scaring people into no longer making rights on red.  I'm very happy that Brick, NJ pulled the plug on them.

[_Simon]

There's no way the owners of the strip mall north of the circle would allow any of their land to be used. I wish this could be a signalized intersection, but I truly honestly don't know how you could make that work.

[_Simon]

Also,  as far as I'm concerned, it's not a "black border",  it's part of the shield design.   The New Jersey state route shield is not a white circle on a black "background",  it's a white square with four rounded black arcs in the corners, framing the route number.   This is evident when you look at a 3DNJ shield -- it's not an "oval" or stretched out circle,  it's a rectangle with the same 90 degree round arcs in all of the corners.  It gives the shield the appearance of almost a lottery ball.   

If the NJ shield were merely a white circle, then:
* The "border", if any, would be a black circle around the perimeter of the white circle
* The "black background" would not, in and of itself, have curved edges, and would resemble a RIDOT shield with sharp square edges

Check out this page and tell me that those shields are not uniquely and intrinsically more identifiable as NJ shields in a way that simple white circles would not.

I also applaud the fact that they are the same whether or not they are on a BGS or not.    If you omit the background on a BGS, why wouldn't you omit it on a freestanding sign?  If the black part adds contrast on standalone signs, why would it not add the same contrast on a BGS?   I honestly think it makes the sign clearer,  easier to read,  makes the sign look more aligned,  makes the fact that it's a NJ route stand out (as opposed to a DE route),  and serves an added bonus when it's being plastered on top of a shield of a different size.

[vdeane]

Have you ever driven in New York?  Notice how our free-standing signs have rounded corners even though our shields don't have a black border?  Some states use rounding corners on all their signs.  NJ is one of them Also note that the Turnpike does NOT have the background.

The green background on a BGS provides contrast.  Having the black background too just makes the sign busier.

Wikipedia having the background doesn't mean anything.  They put backgrounds on all state shields.

[_Simon]

The fact that the turnpike, parkway, and ACE don't have black backgrounds only give credibility to the premise that the black background is part of the "circle" design,  as if it were "just something NJ does on signs", they'd do the same thing to the other shields.

[cl94]

Have you ever driven in New York?  Notice how our free-standing signs have rounded corners even though our shields don't have a black border?  Some states use rounding corners on all their signs.  NJ is one of them Also note that the Turnpike does NOT have the background.

The green background on a BGS provides contrast.  Having the black background too just makes the sign busier.

Wikipedia having the background doesn't mean anything.  They put backgrounds on all state shields.

You say that like New York doesn't use them.

[Alps]

The fact that the turnpike, parkway, and ACE don't have black backgrounds only give credibility to the premise that the black background is part of the "circle" design,  as if it were "just something NJ does on signs", they'd do the same thing to the other shields.

The black background is not part of the design, sorry, go back to start. The NJ Turnpike Authority doesn't use it, and they presumably know what the standard is. DOT just has always applied shields directly to signs instead of using cutouts. Well, now they're going to start using cutouts.

[bzakharin]

The fact that the turnpike, parkway, and ACE don't have black backgrounds only give credibility to the premise that the black background is part of the "circle" design,  as if it were "just something NJ does on signs", they'd do the same thing to the other shields.

ACE does put the backgrounds on state shields in most places. A better argument would be US shields, which also get the background and, clearly, the background is not part of the design of the US Shield since it's federally mandated. On the other hand, the county pentagons have a yellow background on BGSs, but not free-standing assemblies. I wonder why that would be.

[MikeSantNY78]

Have you ever driven in New York?  Notice how our free-standing signs have rounded corners even though our shields don't have a black border?  Some states use rounding corners on all their signs.  NJ is one of them Also note that the Turnpike does NOT have the background.

The green background on a BGS provides contrast.  Having the black background too just makes the sign busier.

Wikipedia having the background doesn't mean anything.  They put backgrounds on all state shields.

You say that like New York doesn't use them.

Ah, the dreaded Five Corners in Orchard Park: Almost a necessity for signage, but true - the rare occurrence of Black-BG route shields on NY's B/LGSs...

[cl94]

Have you ever driven in New York?  Notice how our free-standing signs have rounded corners even though our shields don't have a black border?  Some states use rounding corners on all their signs.  NJ is one of them Also note that the Turnpike does NOT have the background.

The green background on a BGS provides contrast.  Having the black background too just makes the sign busier.

Wikipedia having the background doesn't mean anything.  They put backgrounds on all state shields.

You say that like New York doesn't use them.

Ah, the dreaded Five Corners in Orchard Park: Almost a necessity for signage, but true - the rare occurrence of Black-BG route shields on NY's B/LGSs...

Everything about that intersection's assemblies is wrong. For a while, there were a few of them on NY 33 in Buffalo and Cheektowaga. Quite a few signs in the area use standalone black and white lane signage on BGSes while, IIRC, the standard is a white arrow directly on the green background. Typical Region 5 signage.

[jeffandnicole]

The fact that the turnpike, parkway, and ACE don't have black backgrounds only give credibility to the premise that the black background is part of the "circle" design,  as if it were "just something NJ does on signs", they'd do the same thing to the other shields.

ACE does put the backgrounds on state shields in most places. A better argument would be US shields, which also get the background and, clearly, the background is not part of the design of the US Shield since it's federally mandated. On the other hand, the county pentagons have a yellow background on BGSs, but not free-standing assemblies. I wonder why that would be.

The newer signs on the ACX WB Exit for NJ 73 does not have the black background.  The one remaining older sign does.  Same with NJ 168.  (Personally, it looks naked without the black background!)

[_Simon]

The fact that the turnpike, parkway, and ACE don't have black backgrounds only give credibility to the premise that the black background is part of the "circle" design,  as if it were "just something NJ does on signs", they'd do the same thing to the other shields.

The black background is not part of the design, sorry, go back to start. The NJ Turnpike Authority doesn't use it, and they presumably know what the standard is. DOT just has always applied shields directly to signs instead of using cutouts. Well, now they're going to start using cutouts.

For the last god knows how many years,  I've read your website and you always point out when someone forgets the black background.  I always thought to myself, "wow, he really cares about that black background".   I'm really surprised I'm the one here rooting for the black background, which I never used to give two shits about.   It's tradition.  It's the same reason we'll never have self-service gas.   The same reason we eat pork roll, and the same way we get a buttered roll in the morning.  We're New Jersey -- when you cut us off, you get the horn AND the finger.   You go right to turn left because our medians are narrower than our big floppy slices of pizza.  We have high speed, fast action traffic circles and we sign them with a picture of a hamburger with the word CIRCLE on it.  And we most certainly put black backgrounds behind the shields on our goddamn BGSs.

[_Simon]

Also, 

The westbound lanes (14th St) of at-grade I-78 do not have traditional traffic signal street signage,  but the eastbound lanes (12th St) do.   You'd think they would mention I-78 or NJ-139. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.730265,-74.043054,3a,26.3y,174.42h,100.03t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sjJzcRjv7PHYK7U-Af5jWtw!2e0

[Roadrunner75]

For the last god knows how many years,  I've read your website and you always point out when someone forgets the black background.  I always thought to myself, "wow, he really cares about that black background".   I'm really surprised I'm the one here rooting for the black background, which I never used to give two shits about.   It's tradition.  It's the same reason we'll never have self-service gas.   The same reason we eat pork roll, and the same way we get a buttered roll in the morning.  We're New Jersey -- when you cut us off, you get the horn AND the finger.   You go right to turn left because our medians are narrower than our big floppy slices of pizza.  We have high speed, fast action traffic circles and we sign them with a picture of a hamburger with the word CIRCLE on it.  And we most certainly put black backgrounds behind the shields on our goddamn BGSs.

Agreed with this.  It's not a state highway in New Jersey without the black backgrounds. 

[Zeffy]

For the last god knows how many years,  I've read your website and you always point out when someone forgets the black background.  I always thought to myself, "wow, he really cares about that black background".   I'm really surprised I'm the one here rooting for the black background, which I never used to give two shits about.   It's tradition.  It's the same reason we'll never have self-service gas.   The same reason we eat pork roll, and the same way we get a buttered roll in the morning.  We're New Jersey -- when you cut us off, you get the horn AND the finger.   You go right to turn left because our medians are narrower than our big floppy slices of pizza.  We have high speed, fast action traffic circles and we sign them with a picture of a hamburger with the word CIRCLE on it.  And we most certainly put black backgrounds behind the shields on our goddamn BGSs.

Agreed with this.  It's not a state highway in New Jersey without the black backgrounds.

This and what was quoted. New Jersey is different because we're different. Call us a shadow of New York City and you'll end up in a hospital. For the New Jerseyans that actually care about their state - our pride is greater than Texan's love for Texas. Removing our black backgrounded state and US route shields on guide signs is killing a part of New Jersey. We're New Jersey - if you hate us, don't worry, we hate you too! 

[signalman]

For the last god knows how many years,  I've read your website and you always point out when someone forgets the black background.  I always thought to myself, "wow, he really cares about that black background".   I'm really surprised I'm the one here rooting for the black background, which I never used to give two shits about.   It's tradition.  It's the same reason we'll never have self-service gas.   The same reason we eat pork roll, and the same way we get a buttered roll in the morning.  We're New Jersey -- when you cut us off, you get the horn AND the finger.   You go right to turn left because our medians are narrower than our big floppy slices of pizza.  We have high speed, fast action traffic circles and we sign them with a picture of a hamburger with the word CIRCLE on it.  And we most certainly put black backgrounds behind the shields on our goddamn BGSs.

Agreed with this.  It's not a state highway in New Jersey without the black backgrounds.

This and what was quoted. New Jersey is different because we're different. Call us a shadow of New York City and you'll end up in a hospital. For the New Jerseyans that actually care about their state - our pride is greater than Texan's love for Texas. Removing our black backgrounded state and US route shields on guide signs is killing a part of New Jersey. We're New Jersey - if you hate us, don't worry, we hate you too! 

Well said.  That about sums up the sentiment of long time NJ residents who are proud to call the Garden State home.

[roadman65]

You know I lived in NJ for years.  I did notice the NJT not using black borders on its signs and never gave it a second thought, but do not forget Texas.  They use totally different signs on their BGSes than they do for stand alone shields.  The FM highways have square shields on BGSes, but state outlines on the stand alone shields.  At least NJ keeps the circles no matter what. 

[hbelkins]

So many states carve out their own exceptions to the MUTCD, I can't understand why New Jersey won't continue to do so for route markers on guide signs.

[Alps]

So many states carve out their own exceptions to the MUTCD, I can't understand why New Jersey won't continue to do so for route markers on guide signs.

I think this is getting a bit overblown for the most picayune of arguments. If you really feel that a black background defines the essence of New Jersey, let's start with the fact that we're still using the most boring of all shield shapes. Are we a boring circle?

[agentsteel53]

the most boring of all shield shapes

nah, that's the MA square.  the circle is based on the classic state-named double-circle shield.



don't ask me when the state outline or the triangle were used, but my guess is early 20s.




I stand corrected.  the most boring is just writing on a post, as with NJ 1 on that last photo.