Tulsa Trip Notes

[M86]

I'm not sure if this is allowed for a new thread (basically a trip log), but I just took a trip up north from Rogers, AR (I-49/US 71) to Joplin then to Tulsa on I-44 (Will Rogers Turnpike).  Drove around quite a bit in eastern Tulsa.  I came back east on US 412 and took the Scenic/Alt route of 412.

Wow... I complain about Arkansas's highways, but I'm pretty sure my car will need a new alignment from my trip to Tulsa.
There was a section of I-44 in East Tulsa/Catoosa that would rival amusement park rides.

The signage on the Will Rogers Turnpike made my OCD go crazy!  Totally random... Actually ODOT signage in general.

And, does ODOT maintain the Scenic/Alt 412 of the Cherokee Turnpike?  Or is it local maintenance?

Anyone from Tulsa on the forum?  Some of the streets I drove were awful... and they were main arterials... Was I just unlucky?

I hate to be negative here, and the flying spaghetti monster knows I can be negative, but I'd love to here any locals input.

[Scott5114]

Welcome to Oklahoma! Now do you see why I complain so much?

The signage issue is a statewide issue. Unlike most states, ODOT and OTA don't have a 'house style' giving consistency from sign to sign. Unlike New Mexico, this seldom results in anything cool, and usually just results in signs that make you want to pour bleach in your eyes.

ALT US-412 (designation changed from Scenic a few years back) is maintained by ODOT. It was formerly SH-33 before US-412 was extended into Oklahoma.

I can't speak to Tulsa arterials–Tulsa resident bugo would be more qualified there–but yes, Tulsa's freeways are an unholy mess. They are slowly getting a little better over time as construction occurs–back in 2007 or so, I-44 through Tulsa (the Skelly Drive) was a deathtrap. Oklahoma City's freeway system is a little better than Tulsa's, but it still has its share of OH SHIT! moments.

I always recommend to people without business in Tulsa to spend the extra few bucks to bypass the whole thing on the Creek Turnpike (secret SH-364).

[M86]

Welcome to Oklahoma! Now do you see why I complain so much?

The signage issue is a statewide issue. Unlike most states, ODOT and OTA don't have a 'house style' giving consistency from sign to sign. Unlike New Mexico, this seldom results in anything cool, and usually just results in signs that make you want to pour bleach in your eyes.

ALT US-412 (designation changed from Scenic a few years back) is maintained by ODOT. It was formerly SH-33 before US-412 was extended into Oklahoma.

I can't speak to Tulsa arterials–Tulsa resident bugo would be more qualified there–but yes, Tulsa's freeways are an unholy mess. They are slowly getting a little better over time as construction occurs–back in 2007 or so, I-44 through Tulsa (the Skelly Drive) was a deathtrap. Oklahoma City's freeway system is a little better than Tulsa's, but it still has its share of OH SHIT! moments.

I always recommend to people without business in Tulsa to spend the extra few bucks to bypass the whole thing on the Creek Turnpike (secret SH-364).

Hahaha... New Mexico signage actually crossed my mind while traveling through.

That damn Skelly Drive f'ed up my navigation on my phone while I was there... Sometimes a good ol' paper atlas/map is the best.

I don't really have a problem with Tulsa's freeways (except for the inconsistencies)... If anything, I envy them for NWA.  Tulsa Metro has a million plus.  Northwest Arkansas just hit half a million, and we'll be the 3rd largest fastest growing metro through 2020... and we have I-49 that is very slowly being upgraded to 3 lanes in each direction... Even though the study recommends 4 lanes through much of I-49.

I'd love Tulsa's freeway network here.  Since we have half of Tulsa's metro population, half of Tulsa's freeway network would be a godsend.

[Rick1962]

M86, as one who has the (mis)fortune to live in Tulsa, let me say that, yes, our roads here are terrible.

While the City of Tulsa has been aggressively addressing the deplorable condition of our arterials and neighborhood streets the past several years, the previous decades of mismanagement and neglect are overwhelming the system.

Tulsa has experienced tremendous suburban sprawl in the past 30 years, but unlike most cities, arterial widening and maintenance has been very hit or miss (mainly miss). South Tulsa is suffering with two-lane arterials that should have been widened 20 or 30 years ago. Many of the arterials in the midtown area are potholed and poorly patched, and while the city has plans to repair them, the problem is so widespread that it will be many years before some are fixed.

The city proper has also missed out on the population growth that other regional cities have experienced. The suburbs are booming, but the city's population has held near steady for 20 years or so. The City of Tulsa is also experiencing severe financial problems, so even maintaining basic amenities like neighborhood pools and parks is going by the wayside.

Our expressway system is also a mess, I-44 widening notwithstanding. Pavement conditions are deplorable in many areas, and repairs are frequently slipshod, if they are attempted at all. Asphalt cold-patching is a city trademark. ODOT has plans to replace the miserable cloverleafs along I-44, US 169 and the Broken Arrow Expressway, but that's years in the future, if they can get the money together to do it.

New construction seems to begin falling apart much more quickly in Tulsa than other parts of the state, and the difference between northeastern Oklahoma and surrounding states is night and day. The arterials under the new I-44 construction at Harvard and Yale already have crumbling curbs. The south side of the downtown loop is incredibly bad. It's only 30 years old, but the pavement is disintegrating, and the spalling on some of the bridge piers is unreal.

I apologize for the negative tone. Tulsa really isn't a bad place on its own, (as long as you don't have to drive anyplace), and has some very nice amenities for a city its size, but when you look at the progress other cities in the region have made in the past 20 years, and then look at Tulsa, you see that Tulsa has fallen so far behind that it will likely never catch up.

[US71]

I've only explored bits & pieces of Tulsa, usually passing through to someplace else. I need to spend a day or two just driving around and see what hidden "gems" I might find.

[bugo]

Wow... I complain about Arkansas's highways, but I'm pretty sure my car will need a new alignment from my trip to Tulsa.
There was a section of I-44 in East Tulsa/Catoosa that would rival amusement park rides.

Cherokee Curve at the I-44/OK 66 left exit split?

And, does ODOT maintain the Scenic/Alt 412 of the Cherokee Turnpike?  Or is it local maintenance?

Yep, it's an ODOT-maintained state highway.

Anyone from Tulsa on the forum?  Some of the streets I drove were awful... and they were main arterials... Was I just unlucky?
I hate to be negative here, and the flying spaghetti monster knows I can be negative, but I'd love to here any locals input.

I'm not originally from here but I've been here seven years and can attest to the rough streets.  Peoria from I-44 north to 41st was in terrible, terrible shape until they repaved it.  It only took a couple of weeks to do the paving which shocked me.  I expected it to take months.

What questions do you have for "ask a local"?

[bugo]

I can't speak to Tulsa arterials–Tulsa resident bugo would be more qualified there–but yes, Tulsa's freeways are an unholy mess. They are slowly getting a little better over time as construction occurs–back in 2007 or so, I-44 through Tulsa (the Skelly Drive) was a deathtrap. Oklahoma City's freeway system is a little better than Tulsa's, but it still has its share of OH SHIT! moments.

I-44 is now excellent between the eastern I-244 split and the US 75 cloverleaf.  It is six lanes with shoulders.  East of I-244 it is scary in places, but they're slowly converting it into a six lane freeway.

I always recommend to people without business in Tulsa to spend the extra few bucks to bypass the whole thing on the Creek Turnpike (secret SH-364).

Speaking of the Creek Turnpike and roller coasters, the bridge just east of the US 64/169 split is really bumpy.  Whoever built this bridge needs to refund OTA their money so they can replace the bridge.  It isn't very old either.

[Scott5114]

I-44/Skelly Drive is definitely a lot better than it used to be. I haven't had reason to go up that way in quite a while, so most of what I've seen has been through your photos and videos, trip reports, and Google imagery. Unfortunately, some bad spots seem to remain–I seem to remember I-244 and I-444 having some questionable design decisions–and there are far too many outdated interchanges.

The Oklahoma City area has a similar patchwork of good and bad. I-35 through Moore and Norman are both very nice, and the new I-40 Crosstown south of downtown is probably the best freeway in the state (I'm sure if Governor Fallin can be believed when she claims to have been personally pushing the project along, it must have helped a lot). But in the meantime you still have issues going unaddressed like the west half of I-240 (you can use the satellite imagery to illustrate the concept of 'weaving') and the I-35/I-240 cloverleaf, I-35 between I-40 and I-44, too many TOTSOs, etc.

[rte66man]

I-44/Skelly Drive is definitely a lot better than it used to be. I haven't had reason to go up that way in quite a while, so most of what I've seen has been through your photos and videos, trip reports, and Google imagery. Unfortunately, some bad spots seem to remain–I seem to remember I-244 and I-444 having some questionable design decisions–and there are far too many outdated interchanges.

The Oklahoma City area has a similar patchwork of good and bad. I-35 through Moore and Norman are both very nice, and the new I-40 Crosstown south of downtown is probably the best freeway in the state (I'm sure if Governor Fallin can be believed when she claims to have been personally pushing the project along, it must have helped a lot). But in the meantime you still have issues going unaddressed like the west half of I-240 (you can use the satellite imagery to illustrate the concept of 'weaving') and the I-35/I-240 cloverleaf, I-35 between I-40 and I-44, too many TOTSOs, etc.

The I35/I240 interchange is in the 5 Year Plan.  I believe actual construction will begin next year.  Of course it will take another 10 years to finish.

[-NCX75-]

I'm not from Tulsa, but I have been there a couple of times and I can say that Arkansas' roads are amazing in comparison to Oklahoma's. Along with the other spots mentioned upthread, I can vouch for the US 75/I 244 bridge approaching Downtown from the south as a problem point. Bump Bump Bump. Oklahoma roads in general are ill signed and ill maintained. Arkansas roads are decent, the only problems there are the state route inconsistencies and the lack of lighting. But at least in Arkansas you aren't hoping to drive out of the state as fast as possible on a road trip because of the roads.

[bugo]

The I-244 Arkansas River bridge is being replaced and traffic has been rerouted to the new SB bridge.  As far as bad signage, at least ODOT posts all highways that share pavement.

[Arkansastravelguy]

I've been in Oklahoma clinching roads lately and I disagree with the Sooner hate. All the state roads I have been on are in good shape and very well signed. The interstates suck, but the state roads themselves are maintained (and co-signed) well.

[Brandon]

Our expressway system is also a mess, I-44 widening notwithstanding. Pavement conditions are deplorable in many areas, and repairs are frequently slipshod, if they are attempted at all. Asphalt cold-patching is a city trademark. ODOT has plans to replace the miserable cloverleafs along I-44, US 169 and the Broken Arrow Expressway, but that's years in the future, if they can get the money together to do it.

New construction seems to begin falling apart much more quickly in Tulsa than other parts of the state, and the difference between northeastern Oklahoma and surrounding states is night and day. The arterials under the new I-44 construction at Harvard and Yale already have crumbling curbs. The south side of the downtown loop is incredibly bad. It's only 30 years old, but the pavement is disintegrating, and the spalling on some of the bridge piers is unreal.

Change the names, and you just described Chicago and Illinois.  Of course, we had many legislators and even the governor in the pocket of road construction companies for decades, both R and D (Bill Cellini).  Instead of building quality roads, they built crap so they could replace them faster using state money.

If Tulsa and Oklahoma are just incompetent, that's fine.  Incompetence is tolerable to corruption.

[Scott5114]

I've been in Oklahoma clinching roads lately and I disagree with the Sooner hate. All the state roads I have been on are in good shape and very well signed. The interstates suck, but the state roads themselves are maintained (and co-signed) well.

I can agree with that. Signage of rural state highways is usually performed by ODOT itself, not a contractor. Most of the bad stuff in Oklahoma is created by a contractor, since ODOT seems unwilling to send work back to the contractors to have it redone. Since ODOT handles the signage on state routes, it's also a lot more consistent than the Interstates.

One gripe I have with rural state highways is ODOT's tendency in recent years to surface them with chip seal instead of asphalt or concrete. This is obviously meant as a money-saving tactic.

[CrossCountryRoads]

I always found it interesting that the last exit of the Will Rogers Turnpike as you're heading west into Tulsa is marked with a Creek Turnpike mileage exit number:  Exit 34.  So basically, all the exits before it are in the 200's, then suddenly there is an Exit 34 right before the ramp to stay on I-44 toward downtown Tulsa.  Does the Will Rogers Turnpike actually end a few miles before this interchange and the Creek Turnpike take over at some point before the interchange?  The mile markers don't reflect that to my memory.  Can someone shed some light on why that one exit is marked Exit 34 even though you're still on I-44 West (Will Rogers Turnpike)?  It really has had me wondering.

[bugo]

I always found it interesting that the last exit of the Will Rogers Turnpike as you're heading west into Tulsa is marked with a Creek Turnpike mileage exit number:  Exit 34.  So basically, all the exits before it are in the 200's, then suddenly there is an Exit 34 right before the ramp to stay on I-44 toward downtown Tulsa.  Does the Will Rogers Turnpike actually end a few miles before this interchange and the Creek Turnpike take over at some point before the interchange?  The mile markers don't reflect that to my memory.  Can someone shed some light on why that one exit is marked Exit 34 even though you're still on I-44 West (Will Rogers Turnpike)?  It really has had me wondering.

The entrance ramp from Pine to I-44 points toward the Creek Turnpike instead of I-44 or the Will Rogers Turnpike. That makes me think the switchover is at the junction of the old highway with the new one. However, there are signs west (really true south)  of US 412 that say "Will Rogers Turnpike maintenance ends, Creek Turnpike maintenance ends". There is a similar sign headed in the opposite direction. This is about 1/2 to 1 mile south ("west") of US 412. So who really knows.

[bugo]

There are 4 possible endings of the Creek Turnpike: the aforementioned "end maintenance" signs, the middle of the US 412 interchange, the merge point where I-44 merges into the toll road or at the point where the new alignment ends. There are, as I've mentioned before, signs at Pine Avenue pointing towards the eastbound Creek Turnpike. As I said, who knows.

[CrossCountryRoads]

Very strange indeed.  It must be messed up if a large group of road enthusiasts can't figure it out, lol!

[Scott5114]

I tend to believe the switchover point is at the US-412 interchange, which would be the most sensible.

As for why Exit 34 is numbered the way it is, that interchange was built along with the Creek Turnpike. Prior to that, the Will Rogers followed a diagonal path between the curve north of Pine Street and the OK-66 interchange. This old alignment is mostly still in place but closed to traffic. Creek Turnpike exit numbering is strange in general: only the eastmost section, which is the most recently constructed section, is numbered.

[roadman65]

I was just in Tulsa, but I did not notice that the west end of the Will Rogers was realigned to meet dead on with the new Creek Turnpike.  I see from Google Satellite that an abandon freeway exists from the I-44 and OK 66 split to the curve just to the north of the big interchange between US 412, I-44, and The Creek Turnpike. I was there at night and traveling EB so it does not notice.

In addition they filled in underneath the overpass carrying EB OK 66 over the former I-44 WB and GSV shows E Pine Street doing the same, but in the process.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Tulsa,+OK/@36.1708111,-95.7492452,524m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x87b692b8ddd12e8f:0xe76910c81bd96af7!6m1!1e1

What really gets me is now the EB I-44 exits itself on the right instead of the former Y set up where old Route 66 now splits from the freeway.

[roadman65]

Yeah but the fact remains that the bridges were left and not removed.  In most instances the bridges are either removed or left in place (like the PA Turnpike over US 30 in Breezewood decades after the Tpk realignment took place).

This is unusual for that anyway.  Of course weather will beat the crap out of roads in areas that change in temperature annually between seasons.  Heck I have seen some NJ roads last only a couple of years after being built going to the dogs.  Yes, I read when it was done and why so and it was 13 years since.  My map was older than I thought as I thought it was my 4 year old map and it was my 15 year old map that still is with me.

[corco]

Yeah but the fact remains that the bridges were left and not removed.  In most instances the bridges are either removed or left in place (like the PA Turnpike over US 30 in Breezewood decades after the Tpk realignment took place).

If these bridges were not removed and bridges normally are not removed, how is this unusual?

[HockeyGuy]

I can't glean from this conversation what improvements have been done to I-44 Skelly Drive since I was last in Tulsa (in 2011). I remember not really steering, but more like aiming my car down the narrow lanes with everyone either going 70 mph...or creeping at 15 mph...nothing in between. I'm used to fabulous, wide, smooth urban highways (metro Louisville, KY) with one stretch of I-65 between the inner and outer beltways 16 lanes wide-and they're all needed! Is this an OKC vs Tulsa funding disparity?

(BTW, that stretch adjoins the UPS Air Worldport international cargo hub, one of our two Ford assembly plants, the huge Kentucky Expo Center with an amusement park, major east-west road connections and the airport terminal-all busy ALL the time! It's I-65, MM 125-132.)

[Scott5114]

I-44 has basically been modernized. There's still a few rough interchanges, but for the most part, Skelly Drive is a modern freeway now.

[rte66man]

I-44 has basically been modernized. There's still a few rough interchanges, but for the most part, Skelly Drive is a modern freeway now.

Everything east of the Arkansas River is modern (debatable about the BA and 169 interchanges).  West of the river is another matter.