Seeing reports on Twitter that an I-85 overpass northeast of downtown Atlanta has collapsed due to a fire. One report mentioned it's near Piedmont Rd. Another traffic cam screen capture confirms that.
https://twitter.com/ajc/status/847586038142742528
https://twitter.com/wsbtv/status/847586247883317250
I live in Gwinnett County and I just heard about it. It is going to be a mess around here. BTW, the new Braves stadium opens tomorrow night in Cobb County. The extra traffic on I-285 and I-75 is going to make it an interesting evening.
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.
Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fsfvwuq.jpg&hash=7202e00f92636edfa1b7d1d01c456b149638fc14)
Usually what happens is something under the bridge catches on fire, which weakens the rebar in the concrete or the steel girders, which leads to the collapse.
Cutting off both I-85 and GA 400 from downtown is going to create a mess for a while. The old I-85 alignment (GA 13) will be able to relieve some of the traffic but nowhere near enough. The lack of redundancy due to the absence of I-475 and I-420 is going to bite the city in the ass for the next month or two until a replacement can be put in service.
Quote from: lordsutch on March 30, 2017, 07:49:19 PM
The old I-85 alignment (GA 13) will be able to relieve some of the traffic but nowhere near enough.
That assumes it even remains open. Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't be shocked if at least the southbound lanes of GA 13 are shut down for at least a couple days as well.
The loss of this segment of I-85 essentially severs the link between downtown and the north and northeast suburbs. I-75 toward Cobb County is going to be so overloaded as to be effectively unusable. Anywhere north of I-20 will be a nightmare for probably the next two months. Today I have a new reason to be thankful that I can take MARTA to work.
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 30, 2017, 07:44:34 PM
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.
Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fsfvwuq.jpg&hash=7202e00f92636edfa1b7d1d01c456b149638fc14)
not unusual for a fire to damage a bridge, probably a semi crash, but it looks like it's something flammable that caught fire. could it be arson?
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 30, 2017, 10:20:45 PM
it looks like it's something flammable that caught fire.
http://www.ajc.com/news/traffic/breaking-deal-declares-state-emergency-after-bridge-collapse/FRzANVZ9vgyWW2WZfyN6jI/
Quote
... the cause of the fire is not yet known but “the speculation I’ve heard is that there are some PVC products that caught fire.” Witness James Shilkett was driving by the fire around 6:15 p.m. when he said he saw PVC piping on fire.
The PVC pipes were stored under the freeway and are visible in Street View:
https://goo.gl/maps/pVqSKzan51T2
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Flyk8fZV.jpg&hash=981b20945310877eca3c53acb92d2552af12d0c7)
Quote from: Kniwt on March 30, 2017, 11:12:01 PM
The PVC pipes were stored under the freeway and are visible in Street View:
https://goo.gl/maps/pVqSKzan51T2
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Flyk8fZV.jpg&hash=981b20945310877eca3c53acb92d2552af12d0c7)
PVC is not fire proof, but generally fire resistant... Something serious has to happen to make it burn, not just a cigarette butt..
Here is a picture of the beginning of the fire.
https://twitter.com/WSBTVCameraMan/status/847615823640383488
That was an accident waiting to happen, accidental or arson.I left Atlanta in '09 and that collection of barrels and PVC piping sat there for at least 15 years before that. Glad no one was hurt, and yeah it's deffinetly going to be a mess for a while. It's a miracle nobody was on the bridge when the collapse occurred.
Quote from: Eth on March 30, 2017, 07:59:35 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on March 30, 2017, 07:49:19 PM
The old I-85 alignment (GA 13) will be able to relieve some of the traffic but nowhere near enough.
That assumes it even remains open. Based on what I've seen, I wouldn't be shocked if at least the southbound lanes of GA 13 are shut down for at least a couple days as well.
The loss of this segment of I-85 essentially severs the link between downtown and the north and northeast suburbs. I-75 toward Cobb County is going to be so overloaded as to be effectively unusable. Anywhere north of I-20 will be a nightmare for probably the next two months. Today I have a new reason to be thankful that I can take MARTA to work.
Through the weekend things will be a mess. Lots of folks will undoubtedly be taking an unplanned day off work tomorrow.
Beyond that, the saving grace here is that the southbound structure did not collapse. They'll need to inspect it to confirm but if it's in usable condition it can fit three lanes each way with no shoulders. So we'll probably see two way traffic on that side until the collapsed section can be replaced. Still a huge traffic headache, but much better than nothing.
The downside is that there's really no way to preserve northbound access to GA 400 with this setup, so that's shot until the bridge is replaced. Traffic will need to use GA 13 to get there.
Actually, that brings up an idea for what might be an interesting alternative: keep 4 or 5 lanes of SB I-85 on that structure, with only 1 or 2 lanes of NB I-85 on it. These lanes would have an HOV restriction during peak hours. Then, run GA 13 in contraflow mode - northbound traffic on both roadways. At the north end, traffic on the normally northbound roadway would be forced onto the ramp to I-85 north, while traffic on the normally southbound roadway would get shunted over to the northbound roadway here, and given the option to either continue up GA 13 or make the left to get to GA 400. With no through southbound traffic on GA 13, this left turn would be protected for the entire green phase.
In this setup you'd probably also want to close the offramp from GA 13 to Monroe Dr, and then restripe the NB GA 13 roadway so it narrows down to one lane prior to the ramp from I-85 NB. This way said ramp can add the second lane back and not need to merge.
Whatever the case with the roads, MARTA should run as many trains to North Springs and Doraville as they can. Though I don't know how much spare rolling stock they have (I assume the tracks themselves can handle more frequent service than is currently scheduled).
Quote from: kalvado on March 30, 2017, 11:30:29 PM
Quote from: Kniwt on March 30, 2017, 11:12:01 PM
The PVC pipes were stored under the freeway and are visible in Street View:
https://goo.gl/maps/pVqSKzan51T2
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Flyk8fZV.jpg&hash=981b20945310877eca3c53acb92d2552af12d0c7)
PVC is not fire proof, but generally fire resistant... Something serious has to happen to make it burn, not just a cigarette butt..
That looks more like direct-burial fiber optic riser cable innerduct than just plain old PVC pipe. This was most likely a staging area for a fiber install along GDOT's ROW. Either for their own uses or to lease the bandwidth out to someone else.
Quote from: ATLRedSoxFan on March 30, 2017, 11:54:23 PM
It's a miracle nobody was on the bridge when the collapse occurred.
Fortunately, the PVC pipes/whatever was under the bridge created some thick, black smoke that was enough to get the lanes above it shut-down before the bridge collapsed. But yea, it was a good thing no-one was on the bridge when it happened.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
Beyond that, the saving grace here is that the southbound structure did not collapse. They'll need to inspect it to confirm but if it's in usable condition it can fit three lanes each way with no shoulders. So we'll probably see two way traffic on that side until the collapsed section can be replaced. Still a huge traffic headache, but much better than nothing.
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/large-fire-shuts-down-interstate/507589453)) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.
Well, the only thing worse would be if that happened in Los Angeles! It and Atlanta are easily the two worst places to get stuck in traffic, and I once lived in the former city from 1994 1988-2000. I-75, I-20 and I-285 will be an even bigger mess because of the severed connection in I-85.
EDIT: I actually moved from Chicago to Los Angeles in 1988 due to attending UCLA, and became a permanent resident in 1992, but I do remember the 1994 earthquake well.
I-85 carries 222,000 vehicles per day at that location. In addition, GA-13 carries another 71,000, bringing the total detour traffic to almost 300,000 vehicles per day. That's huge.
How are they going to detour that kind of traffic? For example the ramp at I-75 north to I-285 east is only a single lane. I-20 east to I-285 north is also only a single lane. I can understand why they call this a transportation crisis.
will SR 13 be open? there's really nothing good about the detour, you could use surface streets, but most everyone will use the interstates in the area. this will be a mess for a while!
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2017, 10:06:28 AM
will SR 13 be open? there's really nothing good about the detour, you could use surface streets, but most everyone will use the interstates in the area. this will be a mess for a while!
Georgia 13 is also closed in both directions.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
Actually, that brings up an idea for what might be an interesting alternative: keep 4 or 5 lanes of SB I-85 on that structure, with only 1 or 2 lanes of NB I-85 on it. These lanes would have an HOV restriction during peak hours. Then, run GA 13 in contraflow mode - northbound traffic on both roadways. At the north end, traffic on the normally northbound roadway would be forced onto the ramp to I-85 north, while traffic on the normally southbound roadway would get shunted over to the northbound roadway here, and given the option to either continue up GA 13 or make the left to get to GA 400. With no through southbound traffic on GA 13, this left turn would be protected for the entire green phase.
Speaking of HOV, the Express Lanes are operating at HOV-3+ as a result of the I-85 closure:
https://twitter.com/AtlantaTraffic/status/847796844965056512
Birmingham lost an overpass on I-65 early this century. The replacement bridge was done within 60 days. Pretty good work for ALDoNT. :bigass:
https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/02sep/05.cfm (https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/02sep/05.cfm)
(https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/publications/publicroads/02sep/images/05i65bridge1.jpg)
^^
Actually lost 2 bridges at that interchange. Another accident damaged a different bridge a few years later.
Steel is strong, but very vulnerable to heat. Next time, don't store burnable materials underneath.
Quote from: Chris on March 31, 2017, 09:41:31 AM
How are they going to detour that kind of traffic? For example the ramp at I-75 north to I-285 east is only a single lane. I-20 east to I-285 north is also only a single lane. I can understand why they call this a transportation crisis.
Basically, they don't. They'll create an 'official' detour route for interstate travelers that would've just traveled thru the area, and then maybe a shorter route closer to the roads/highways that are closed for more local traffic, but for the most part motorists will be on their own to find the best way to/from their destinations.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2017, 12:36:51 PM
Steel is strong, but very vulnerable to heat. Next time, don't store burnable materials underneath.
You can bet that today's #1 job for those not dealing with this incident is to remove anything else stored underneath overpasses in Atlanta, and probably Georgia.
In the 49 other states, the press may ask their Transportation Departments if they are in similar situations. In 49 other states, they will respond no.
Reminds me of the closure of multiple routes through the Oakland maze due to a gasoline truck overturning and igniting on the lowest level in 2007:
https://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Tanker_truck_fire_causes_collapse_on_Oakland_Freeway
It may be possible that the southbound bridge may be able to be strengthened in it's current form and not need to be demolished (at least immediately) due to the fire. If this is the case (it may not be), they might be able to at least get some form of a temporary detour around the northbound structure open within a few days or weeks.
A similar incident occurred on the 401 in Toronto back in 2008. A semi-truck caught fire on a ramp beneath the collector lanes causing significant damage to the structure overhead. The structure was temporarily strengthened during the week following the fire, and was replaced almost a decade later during a construction project:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/bridge-fire-to-snarl-morning-commute-on-401/article17971117/
Yep, time for the newspapers to remember the good times from their own local incidents.
This tire fire under 95 occurred 21 years ago in Philly. http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/real-time/Atlanta-Interstate-fire-recalls-Philly-I-95-fire-21-years-ago.html. Took a few weeks to repair the better bridge, knock down the jersey barriers and build what was necessary for the contra-flow on the better bridge until the collapsed bridge could be rebuilt.
A similar incident happened in NJ back in 1989 involving garbage under I-78 in Newark. Below is the quote from NYCRoads. Similar situation to the Atlanta area, a very wide and busy highway was effected, but luckily didn't collapse.
QuoteIn the early morning hours of August 7, 1989, a multiple-alarm fire at an illegal garbage dump underneath I-78 near Newark Airport caused heavy damage to the freeway overpass. The source of the fire was a mound of trash 25 feet tall and hundreds of yards long consisting of scrap wood, plastics and paper. The heat of the fire buckled the ten-inch concrete surface and melted steel support beams, and the resulting weight shifts from the highway (which had sagged nearly a foot) damaged bearings and support columns. Hours after the fire was extinguished, smoke continued to seep through the overpass, and the asphalt was still hot enough to push a pen through the surface.
State and local officials immediately closed this 12-lane elevated section of I-78, disrupting a route that more than 90,000 commuters per day had used, and seriously affecting the flows of goods to and from the Newark Airport and Elizabeth Seaport areas. In the ensuing months, as repairs were made to the structure, some lanes of I-78 were reopened to traffic. It was not until the summer of 1990 that all 12 lanes of I-78 were reopened.
I bet the state will get serious about funding MARTA now :bigass:
Quote from: plain on March 31, 2017, 02:21:11 PM
I bet the state will get serious about funding MARTA now :bigass:
There'll be a lot of screaming and hollering for it, but at the same time they're going to be a lot of people screaming and hollering that roads need to be improved, and better alternative routes need to be built.
In the end, there's not going to be any significant difference in the way roads or mass transit are funded!
Quote from: Eth on March 31, 2017, 08:38:03 AM
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/large-fire-shuts-down-interstate/507589453)) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.
So what was compromised that caused the whole section of deck to collapse? Yes, a hot fire can damage steel, but just what failed? Rebar? Expansion joints?
Quote from: VTGoose on March 31, 2017, 02:44:36 PM
Quote from: Eth on March 31, 2017, 08:38:03 AM
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/large-fire-shuts-down-interstate/507589453)) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.
So what was compromised that caused the whole section of deck to collapse? Yes, a hot fire can damage steel, but just what failed? Rebar? Expansion joints?
A PE on Reddit hypothesised that it was the prestressing strands for the reinforced concrete.
Which smells right to me. They yielded too much and separated from the supports.
Cincinnati had its turn at an overpass collapse a couple years ago.
http://www.cincinnati.com/story/news/2015/01/19/bridge-collapse-75-south/22031429/
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta-collapse-what-was-underneath/NxLP4IhjaD48YgbuUaP3vN/
Apparently the storage goes back to 2012.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aKvbPqs-ZNo
Here is Freewayjim filming what I-85 used to look like before the fire.
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/31/15133232/atlanta-traffic-help-bridge-collapse
WSB-TV is reporting that three people are now in custody over the I-85 fire.
http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/3-charged-in-connection-with-fire-that-led-to-i-85-collapse/507974468
Quote from: Eth on March 31, 2017, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
Beyond that, the saving grace here is that the southbound structure did not collapse. They'll need to inspect it to confirm but if it's in usable condition it can fit three lanes each way with no shoulders. So we'll probably see two way traffic on that side until the collapsed section can be replaced.
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/large-fire-shuts-down-interstate/507589453)) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.
Ouch. Welp, then MARTA comes into the spotlight. Still, there's only so much parking at the stations. Those lots will fill up.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2017, 12:36:51 PM
Steel is strong, but very vulnerable to heat. Next time, don't store burnable materials underneath.
It's worth pointing out that PVC has an ignition temperature of 850 degrees Fahrenheit (way too high to be lit by a spark or a stray cigarette butt) and due to its chlorine content actually has fairly good flame retardant properties. Getting that pile of PVC to go up in flames like that would have pretty much required either someone putting effort into torching it on purpose (which it appears may have been what happened, given the arrests), or for there to be adjacent materials of greater flammability that catch fire first.
The decision to store it under the highway therefore does not strike me as reckless or negligent. There was little hazard of an
accidental fire.
Nonetheless, I'm sure that now that this has happened people will bend over backwards to stop storing anything remotely flammable under bridges, since no unusual incident can ever happen without measures being taken to prevent a repeat, even if a repeat is already extremely unlikely (c.f. post-9/11 airport security).
I've never been to Atlanta so i have a question, what is the purpose of that parallel SR 13 route? Is it a toll road or something? Or was it planned as a longer route that got cancelled?
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2017, 09:42:50 PM
I've never been to Atlanta so i have a question, what is the purpose of that parallel SR 13 route? Is it a toll road or something? Or was it planned as a longer route that got cancelled?
it's the old pre-Interstate freeway, kept as a collector-distributor road. The northern end was modified to tie into Buford Highway, and the southern end to feed the West Peachtree-Spring Streets one-way pair.
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/31/15133232/atlanta-traffic-help-bridge-collapse
If there is a problem with public transportation system - it needs more investment!
If there is a problem with road system - public transportation needs more investment!
If it is business as usual - public transportation system needs more investment!
Quote from: kalvado on March 31, 2017, 09:51:06 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/31/15133232/atlanta-traffic-help-bridge-collapse
If there is a problem with public transportation system - it needs more investment!
If there is a problem with road system - public transportation needs more investment!
If it is business as usual - public transportation system needs more investment!
This sort of rhetoric coming from Vox is not surprising, given how leftist they are.
Holy shit.
I'm not talking politics here. They make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive. More choices need to be given for transportation there. But as long as it's cheap and easy to drive there it won't happen.
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 01, 2017, 08:36:09 AM
I'm not talking politics here. They make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive. More choices need to be given for transportation there. But as long as it's cheap and easy to drive there it won't happen.
FWIW, there were other freeways proposed beside the I-420, I-485 and GA 400 and GA 410 extensions. The :sombrero: Outer Perimeter Highway was proposed in the 1980s. It was scaled back to just the Northern Arc between I-75 and I-85, by 1999. Funding issues first stopped progress, then environmental concerns killed it. I did some research on it when updating Atlanta interstate pages in 2015, and have a section on it at http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-285_ga.html
Quote from: compdude787 on April 01, 2017, 01:42:32 AM
Quote from: kalvado on March 31, 2017, 09:51:06 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on March 31, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/3/31/15133232/atlanta-traffic-help-bridge-collapse
If there is a problem with public transportation system - it needs more investment!
If there is a problem with road system - public transportation needs more investment!
If it is business as usual - public transportation system needs more investment!
This sort of rhetoric coming from Vox is not surprising, given how leftist they are.
That's nothing compared to what Beforeitsnews mentionned about the I-85 fire. http://beforeitsnews.com/strange/2017/03/atlanta-i-85-bridge-collapses-after-red-mercury-reported-downtown-2467357.html
Even Mulder and Skully of the X-Files doesn't seem to be interested in this conspiracy theory...
Looking at some of the pillars after the fire, a lot of them look too damaged to save. I'd imagine all the pillars near the origin of the fire are going to have to be rebuilt.
I agree that a city as big as Atlanta would be better off investing in more mass transit. Imagine the commute in the New York metro area WITHOUT it's rail and transit network.
Quote from: PColumbus73 on April 01, 2017, 10:38:21 AM
Looking at some of the pillars after the fire, a lot of them look too damaged to save. I'd imagine all the pillars near the origin of the fire are going to have to be rebuilt.
GDOT stated that the support columns will indeed be rebuilt, not just the bridge deck & beams.
There are 12 beams for each section, on each side of the freeway. Times six that means 72 beams need to be manufactured on short notice. With 350 feet of bridge to be replaced, that's ~ 8,400 ft (1.6 mi) of beams.
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 01, 2017, 08:36:09 AMThey make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive.
Is Atlanta really that different from other U.S. cities (not counting the transit legacy cities)? Pretty much all U.S. cities have sprawling suburbs and a high share of people who drive alone. Atlanta has a lower density than most U.S. metro areas, but the transit share is low in most U.S. cities. A few percentage points higher or lower automobile usage doesn't make a city / urban area that different from the rest imho.
http://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/245059796-story
Here is an update for one of the detained facing arson allegations related to I-85.
Quote from: Chris on April 01, 2017, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 01, 2017, 08:36:09 AMThey make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive.
Is Atlanta really that different from other U.S. cities (not counting the transit legacy cities)? Pretty much all U.S. cities have sprawling suburbs and a high share of people who drive alone. Atlanta has a lower density than most U.S. metro areas, but the transit share is low in most U.S. cities. A few percentage points higher or lower automobile usage doesn't make a city / urban area that different from the rest imho.
I don't think so. The only city where there is significant public transit usage is NYC because the city proper is so dense.
Some good news, I-85 has reopened north of the I-75 split to the Buford Springs Connector exit. You can take I-85, exit onto the connector, bypass the bridge collapse, and get back onto I-85 north. It's very narrow so there will be traffic issues, but it's something. No word on when the southbound connector will reopen, hopefully after the damaged bridge sections are taken down. http://www.ajc.com/news/local/northbound-how-bypass-the-bridge-collapse-and-return/BrpS2UgrC9MLqUuFx0AGrO/
Quote from: Henry on March 31, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Well, the only thing worse would be if that happened in Los Angeles! It and Atlanta are easily the two worst places to get stuck in traffic, and I once lived in the former city from 1994-2000. I-75, I-20 and I-285 will be an even bigger mess because of the severed connection in I-85.
Of course if you lived in Los Angeles in 1994, you certainly remember the several freeway bridges that collapsed during the earthquake.
Somebody else referenced the overturned tanker truck that caught fire and collapsed a freeway transition at the MacArthur Maze in the Bay Area. I remember that one well. This closure's gonna be a mess for a year.
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 09:14:08 PM
Quote from: Eth on March 31, 2017, 08:38:03 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on March 31, 2017, 12:07:32 AM
Beyond that, the saving grace here is that the southbound structure did not collapse. They'll need to inspect it to confirm but if it's in usable condition it can fit three lanes each way with no shoulders. So we'll probably see two way traffic on that side until the collapsed section can be replaced.
GDOT just confirmed in the last half hour or so (per WSB (http://www.wsbtv.com/news/local/atlanta/large-fire-shuts-down-interstate/507589453)) that the southbound bridge was also compromised, so that option is out.
Quote from: kkt on March 31, 2017, 12:36:51 PM
Steel is strong, but very vulnerable to heat. Next time, don't store burnable materials underneath.
It's worth pointing out that PVC has an ignition temperature of 850 degrees Fahrenheit (way too high to be lit by a spark or a stray cigarette butt) and due to its chlorine content actually has fairly good flame retardant properties. Getting that pile of PVC to go up in flames like that would have pretty much required either someone putting effort into torching it on purpose (which it appears may have been what happened, given the arrests), or for there to be adjacent materials of greater flammability that catch fire first.
The decision to store it under the highway therefore does not strike me as reckless or negligent. There was little hazard of an accidental fire.
Nonetheless, I'm sure that now that this has happened people will bend over backwards to stop storing anything remotely flammable under bridges, since no unusual incident can ever happen without measures being taken to prevent a repeat, even if a repeat is already extremely unlikely (c.f. post-9/11 airport security).
Unfortunately, given that somebody apparently deliberately set the fire that collapsed the bridge, you can do all these measures afterward for not storing flammables under freeway bridges, pass laws, this, that and the other thing,
but you can't fix stupid!! :pan: :banghead: A little word of wisdom: As soon as you make something idiot-proof, along comes a bigger idiot.
Recently, in Roanoke, Texas, a section of a large railroad bridge collapsed while a train was going over it. The railroad was able to get the gap spanned and rail service restored in one week.
They did this by using a quick install bridge system that involves driving piles for supports and installing a pre-fab deck
Quote from: hm insulators on April 02, 2017, 12:38:09 AM
Quote from: Henry on March 31, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
Well, the only thing worse would be if that happened in Los Angeles! It and Atlanta are easily the two worst places to get stuck in traffic, and I once lived in the former city from 1994-2000. I-75, I-20 and I-285 will be an even bigger mess because of the severed connection in I-85.
Of course if you lived in Los Angeles in 1994, you certainly remember the several freeway bridges that collapsed during the earthquake.
Somebody else referenced the overturned tanker truck that caught fire and collapsed a freeway transition at the MacArthur Maze in the Bay Area. I remember that one well. This closure's gonna be a mess for a year.
I did live in Los Angeles in 1994 and do remember the freeway closings.
One of the most interesting parts of something like this, from a roadgeeking perspective, is watching what the DOT does to alleviate the traffic situation. Hopefully, it's more than just "the road is closed, use an alternate." Sometimes, they make changes to the alternates to do what they can to alleviate the traffic.
In Los Angeles, I remember that to accommodate the closure of I-5 in the Newhall Pass, they fastracked the opening of a Metrolink commuter rail line. The existing San Fernando Road was also an option.
The I-10 bridge over Fairfax Ave also collapsed. Here, Caltrans and LADOT got really creative and traffic moved surprisingly well, given the circumstances. Of course, traffic was encouraged to simply avoid the freeway altogether, so all of the major east-west corridors, including the recently opened I-105, got more traffic. The main detour was for westbound traffic to exit I-10 at La Brea, go north to Venice, and then rejoin the freeway at La Cienega. Carpoolers could take the Fairfax exit, drive on Electric Drive (then known as Apple St) and merge right back onto the freeway on-ramp. Eastbound was harder as traffic had to travel on surface streets for a longer distance. I-10 traffic exited onto Robertson, use Venice to La Brea and then return to the freeway. Carpoolers could exit onto La Cienega south, continue to Washington and then re-enter the freeway at that ramp. There were many surface street closings. Fairfax, of course, was closed because the construction was taking place there. But many other major surface streets in the area were closed to provide priority to the detour traffic, even when the closures were not necessary for the needs of safety or construction. There were additional left turn arrows installed and other turn restrictions employed. I particularly remember that it was especially difficult to reach Washington Blvd, even from streets that were very far away from the incident. The city reserved the road for carpoolers and tried to push other traffic to other roads as much as possible.
EDITED TO ADD: Here's a link to a special report that shows some of the detours employed in LA in 1994: https://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/sites/rita.dot.gov.bts/files/publications/journal_of_transportation_and_statistics/volume_01_number_02/jts_v1_n2.pdf
In 2007, the I-35W bridge over the Mississippi River in Minneapolis collapsed. The main detour that was set up was to use MN-280. At the time, MN-280 was a partial freeway and partial expressway, with several at-grade intersections with traffic signals. This was quickly changed to accommodate the detour, and many of the changes were even made permanent. Per wikipedia:
Quote
Because of the I-35W Mississippi River Bridge Collapse in nearby Minneapolis on August 1, 2007, Highway 280 was designated by Mn/DOT as the official detour route for I-35W, resulting in its temporary conversion into a full freeway by closing the intersections at County Road B, Broadway Street, Walnut Street, and Roselawn Avenue. Despite the replacement I-35W bridge's opening on September 18, 2008, many of 280's at-grade intersections were not reopened.[10]
Plans for a permanent 280 reconfiguration, per information provided by Mn/DOT officials at the open house meeting on October 21, 2008, involved the following:
Closing access to County Road B on 280's east side, but keeping a right-in/right-out private entrance on the west side for the business there, Paper Calmenson.
Closing Roselawn Avenue access completely.
Closing Walnut Street access completely, except for emergency vehicles only.
For Broadway Street, southbound traffic on 280 will be allowed to make right-in/right-out turns. Traffic on Broadway Street will not be able to make a left turn to head northbound on 280, but northbound traffic on 280 will be allowed to make a left turn onto Broadway Street to enter the businesses on that side. This unique intersection will effectively make northbound 280 a freeway while still making a stoplight at Broadway Street necessary for traffic heading southbound on 280. MnDOT proposed making 280 a complete freeway, but pressure from the businesses on the west side caused them to do the aforementioned reconfiguration.
The crosswalk at Broadway Street will be removed.
Construction began in the Spring of 2009, along with the replacement for the Larpenteur Avenue/East Hennepin Avenue interchange along 280. The construction project was completed in December 2009.
It will be interesting to see what accommodations Atlanta officials will make for I-85 traffic other than "use an alternate."
http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/02/us/i-85-fire-collapse/
New allegation to a person of interest detained in the I-85 arson.
They always say it'll take forever, but usually it's a lot faster than what the officials say.
The I-276 bridge in PA was supposed to be closed until this month but opened last month after a crack was found in it.
In CT, a section of I-95 burned down in Bridgeport after a car cut off a tanker truck. They had at least one direction with a temp bridge open within a few days.
Another point....I'm always amazed at how the action of 1 can affect so many other people.
and another point...is it me but I don't see the tear down the freeways people coming out of the woodwork here?
Quote from: Alex on April 01, 2017, 09:55:18 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 01, 2017, 08:36:09 AM
I'm not talking politics here. They make a good point Atlanta has big sprawl problems, and too many people drive. More choices need to be given for transportation there. But as long as it's cheap and easy to drive there it won't happen.
FWIW, there were other freeways proposed beside the I-420, I-485 and GA 400 and GA 410 extensions. The :sombrero: Outer Perimeter Highway was proposed in the 1980s. It was scaled back to just the Northern Arc between I-75 and I-85, by 1999. Funding issues first stopped progress, then environmental concerns killed it. I did some research on it when updating Atlanta interstate pages in 2015, and have a section on it at http://www.interstate-guide.com/i-285_ga.html
Compared to CT and the Northeast....I'd say Atlanta has a pretty good baseline of freeways. If it were CT, I-285 would be partially built and the downtown connector would be three lanes each way.
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
Quote from: the article
So far, the results are consistent with what we've seen in Los Angeles and Minneapolis. Monday morning came, and something funny happened: traffic wasn't so bad.
And Google Maps showed that late in the morning, traffic looked pretty normal:
So what's going on here? Arguably, our mental model of traffic is just wrong.
Or maybe it's, you know, spring break. Such is the case for at least half of my coworkers' kids, anyway. Get back to me if traffic's still light next week.
Ya the Minnesota one is bs, there was a freeway alternate not to far away it had 2 signals but I think they removed them during the detour.
Not sure the Minneapolis one is relevant, as not only did they remove the two signals along MN 280, but they added an emergency lane to each direction along I-94 between I-35W and MN 280. Furthermore, while traffic overall evened out, there were some commutes that became noticeably longer. There was also a reduction in economic activity that was estimated by the state as around $400K per day.
I remember driving in that region of Atlanta and seeing that PVC pile under the overpass. It was a disaster waiting to happen.
INDOT released a design memo today explicitly talking about how to store flammable materials under bridges due to this.
GDOT has announced the early completion bonus (http://www.dot.ga.gov/AboutGeorgia/Pages/GDOTAnnouncementDetails.aspx?postID=185) for the replacement spans. By my math, if the contractor completes the work by Tuesday, May 9, they can pocket a $3 million bonus, so I expect they will push hard to make that date, even though the contract gives them until Thursday, June 15.
so what is the official story as to how this fire was started?
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 30, 2017, 07:44:34 PM
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.
Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fsfvwuq.jpg&hash=7202e00f92636edfa1b7d1d01c456b149638fc14)
Atlanta is always like that...
Quote from: Interstate 69 Fan on April 13, 2017, 09:09:13 PM
Quote from: CtrlAltDel on March 30, 2017, 07:44:34 PM
First, how often does it happen that a bridge starts on fire? I would have assumed them to be essentially fireproof.
Also, just for posterity, here is my evidence that I am glad to not be in Atlanta at the moment. There's a lot of very dark red in this picture:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2Fsfvwuq.jpg&hash=7202e00f92636edfa1b7d1d01c456b149638fc14)
Atlanta is always like that...
Seattle's like that pretty much every commute hour and lots of weekends. We learn to love the bright red, because at least it's not the blood red.
So the moral of the story is, never store flammable items under a busy highway bridge!
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85) and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes. They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 14, 2017, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85) and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes. They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.
if that actually happened, atlanta traffic would be insane, probably blood red everywhere, every day
Quote from: Anthony_JK on April 14, 2017, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on April 04, 2017, 11:52:20 AM
now i'm seeing articles that are trying to use this to promote freeway removals and road diets
https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/04/what-happened-to-atlantas-carmageddon/521805/?utm_source=SFFB
If Citylab had its way, Atlanta's Downtown Connector (I-75/I-85) and I-20 would be reduced to 4-lane boulevards, everyone would be diverted around via I-285, and all roads would be converted to rail for streetcars and light rail and bicycle lanes. They are the whackadoodles of transportation planning....and as bad as the "toll every road" crowd on the other side of the coin.
Purely anecdotal evidence, but I work in Buckhead, near Lenox Square and Phipps Plaza shopping centers. During the holiday season, traffic is horrendous as shoppers are doing their thing. This week, with the return of Spring Breakers, traffic has been worse than the holidays. I cannot wait until they repair I-85.
I am curious as to the experiences of others in the metro Atlanta area.
Virtually no effect for me, but then, I'm not really a typical case. I already commuted via MARTA anyway, and not on the portions that have had big ridership increases (live in Decatur, work in Midtown), and almost everywhere else I go is within walking distance. About all I can say is that the intersection of Scott Blvd and Clairemont (where US 23 splits off from US 29/78) sucks a little more than usual.
Just some travel advice, for mid-May (probably before the mess is cleared up).
MY tentative plan had been to pass through Atlanta early afternoon on a weekday, from Augusta to Chattanooga. One option is to take the easternmost exit from I-20 to I-285, heading counter-clockwise on I-285 to I-75. The other is to stay on I-20 past downtown, then head clockwise on I-285 to I-75. Subject to last-minute checks on traffic reports, which is likely to be the less unpleasant way through the Atlanta area?
Quote from: oscar on April 14, 2017, 11:17:31 PM
Just some travel advice, for mid-May (probably before the mess is cleared up).
MY tentative plan had been to pass through Atlanta early afternoon on a weekday, from Augusta to Chattanooga. One option is to take the easternmost exit from I-20 to I-285, heading counter-clockwise on I-285 to I-75. The other is to stay on I-20 past downtown, then head clockwise on I-285 to I-75. Subject to last-minute checks on traffic reports, which is likely to be the less unpleasant way through the Atlanta area?
I think the traffic reports will determine which way you go, but I would opt for the I-20 route through Atlanta. Pretty good view of downtown skyline. Also, if I-85 is still being repaired, you would probably encounter some of the rerouted traffic cutting across on I-285 to GA 400 and I-75. But, from a roadgeek perspective, if you have never experienced Spaghetti Junction (!-85/I-285 interchange - 2nd busiest in country?) you may want to take that route.
Also, if you want a better glimpse of upper deck of SunTrust Park (Braves' new ball park - I-75/I-285 interchange) as you drive by take the I-285 counterclocwise route.
If I were you I might actually consider taking I-20 into the city and I-75 N from there. Traffic may be lighter than usual on the connector.
I guess we can just add to the Atlanta road madness. I-20 west east of downtown Atlanta closed after a gas leak buckled the HOV lane.
https://twitter.com/tomreganWSB/status/854001014411808769
What the hell? How could a gas leak do that? Did Godzilla eat 5,000 burritos and burrow under the freeway?
Quote from: MrDisco99 on April 17, 2017, 12:38:50 PM
If I were you I might actually consider taking I-20 into the city and I-75 N from there. Traffic may be lighter than usual on the connector.
Never mind... I-20 WB inside 285 is closed as well. Looks like north perimeter is your only option.
Atlanta can't get a break.
http://www.11alive.com/mb/news/local/air-pocket-blow-out-rips-through-surface-of-i-20/431861804
Update apparently an air pocket is blamed here.
At least that area has been fixed, so good news for I-20!
Next Tuesday, Piedmont Road under the viaduct will be closed for the setting of new precast beams!
Let the rebuild begin :)
The I-85 bridge fire reminds of the time a tanker truck crashed into a bridge pillar on 400 underneath the I-285 overpass in 2001. The truck caught fire and burned a hole into the 285 bridge and caused a mess. It happened in the wee hours of a Saturday morning, but traffic was snarled much of that weekend.
I'm surprised that nobody's mentioned it, but there has never been a proper overhead sign in advance of the 85-400 split, just this pitiful butterfly mount at the half-mile point (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8118965,-84.3696972,3a,60y,69.35h,88.47t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQjb4ozTgJQkpeXcoX0plbw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and this one awkwardly cantilevered beyond the soon-to-dropped right lane at a mile and a half (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.803689,-84.3843161,3a,15.9y,44.12h,91.9t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQrCf9dk-wAKq0VNLBIwFAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). There's nothing at the one mile point. I haven't heard anything about it and I'm afraid to jinx it by asking, but IMO it'd be good if one or even two proper APL's, or at least their foundations, could be installed while highway is closed
And, since no one else has mentioned it, detours directing 85 traffic onto GA 13 were put in place quite promptly. Northbound, the one-lane ramp from northbound 85 onto 13 was restriped for two lanes, and the ramp from GA 13 back to 85, built for one lane, has been striped for two for decades. And, the GA 13 connection from Peachtree and West Peachtree is open, or at least was. I haven't driven it, so my information comes from a 3am video that a friend made a couple of days after the fire. At that time, it appeared that both lanes of 13 northbound were open, which would've led to a bit of a free-for-all at the merge with the two lanes of traffic from 85. I wouldn't be surprised if the 13 connection has been striped down to one lane or closed off altogether.
I drove the southbound detour on Thursday morning since I needed to stop by a vendor in the Armour industrial district on my way to Carrollton and Google, to my amazement, routed me that way. It's a lot less impressive, with only the single lane from the southbound flyover from 85 to 13 carried through the construction zone and the onramp from Piedmont adding a second lane. Wisely, there's an anti-rubbernecking fence between the road and the construction site. As with the northbound direction, the one-lane ramp from 13 to 85 has been restriped for two. To my amazement, the sign for the exit from 13 onto 85 was modified to correctly show the existence of an option lane.This was done in pre-2009 MUTCD style with one green-on-white and one black-on-yellow arrow, but with the arrows pointing up and to the right! AFAIK, this has never been done in Georgia-- before compliance with the 2009 MUCTD began in 2014 or so, arrows at multilane exits pointed down, and usually straight down.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fz3sxmHd.jpg%3F1&hash=da4cc20febabf78c84bb5b5951664317aac61d2b)
Quote from: Brian556 on April 17, 2017, 01:52:11 PM
What the hell? How could a gas leak do that? Did Godzilla eat 5,000 burritos and burrow under the freeway?
:-D :clap:
according to Marc Mastronardi, Construction Director of GDOT, the first bridge deck pour could be tonight.
source: WSB TV last night
For the last two evenings, GPS has routed my trip from Carrollton to Lawrenceville via the burned bridge detour. I'm not gonna post photos, but I'll tell you that:
Most of the asphalt that's closed to traffic has been milled in preparation for repaving. It was in pretty hammered shape, too,
A section of the median barrier on I-85 just south of the viaduct has been cut out, surely for installation of a decades-overdue overhead sign gantry. The new overhead is one mile from the 400 split.
To my amazement, both lanes of old 85, a.k.a GA 13, are open and continuous throughout the detour. Of the two lanes from 85 onto the detour, the right one has to exit at Monroe Drive and the left just ends immediately after the Monroe Drive exit. It's horribly operationally unsound, but people seems to approach it with a cooperative attitude.
Believe it or not, the conspiracy nuts are using this for more enemy propaganda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-OmL5wMlls&
Timelapse video of the reconstruction here: https://app.oxblue.com/open/GADOT/I85BridgeRebuild
Press the play button at the bottom.
I-85 will reopen for Monday morning rush hour.
per Nathan Deal and Russell McMurry.
maybe the best $3.1 million GDOT ever spent
Followup on my previous post (reply #74) in this thread.
I drove through Atlanta today about 3:00, on my way from Charleston SC to Chattanooga. I decided to cut through Atlanta in I-20, to take the west side of I-285 up to I-75, since traffic reports indicated congestion both counter-clockwise on the northeast quadrant ot I-285 and on I-75/85 through downtown. No problem until I got to I-75, which looked like early afternoon rush hour congestion. I didn't even notice the repairs done to reopen I-20 east of downtown -- that part was a breeze.
Multiple work zones on I-20 in the Augusta area caused me more delays than anything in Atlanta.
I-85 NB has now reopened! SB will reopen by Sunday.
https://twitter.com/11AliveNews/status/863183411619516416
http://www.myajc.com/news/local/northbound-lanes-reopen-atlanta/8FJkU2X75t8tMILwkkOuUM/
Courtesy of the paywall from the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Their summary of it all...
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
Congratulations to GDOT for reopening so quickly!
Both directions now open. A tip of my hat to GDOT and the contractors.
As you can see, traffic is quite a bit greener, but then again, today is Sunday.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi65.tinypic.com%2F693p1k.png&hash=64d76565fc38f0ebc82fdf4505f82e07b4c3434b)
Quote from: kkt on May 14, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
Congratulations to GDOT for reopening so quickly!
Now that's progress! :)
Quote from: D-Dey65 on May 04, 2017, 09:19:37 PM
Believe it or not, the conspiracy nuts are using this for more enemy propaganda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-OmL5wMlls&
Let me guess. Mothman was sighted within the PVC pipes two days before the fire.
Quote from: roadman on May 16, 2017, 12:10:12 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on May 04, 2017, 09:19:37 PM
Believe it or not, the conspiracy nuts are using this for more enemy propaganda:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-OmL5wMlls&
Let me guess. Mothman was sighted within the PVC pipes two days before the fire.
Or maybe it's the Illuminati, because 8-5=3, and there are three sides on a triangle.
Quote from: Henry on May 16, 2017, 09:16:24 AM
Quote from: kkt on May 14, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
Congratulations to GDOT for reopening so quickly!
Now that's progress! :)
They did a great job designing and constructing the replacement bridge spans and completing the project quickly.
Now, we need national standards to be promulgated regarding not storing flammable materials underneath major bridges.
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 16, 2017, 09:16:24 AM
Quote from: kkt on May 14, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
Congratulations to GDOT for reopening so quickly!
Now that's progress! :)
They did a great job designing and constructing the replacement bridge spans and completing the project quickly.
Now, we need national standards to be promulgated regarding not storing flammable materials underneath major bridges.
INDOT released one for indiana. i bet a lot of states did the same
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:52:25 PM
Quote from: Henry on May 16, 2017, 09:16:24 AM
Quote from: kkt on May 14, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
Quote from: Thing 342 on April 04, 2017, 11:22:34 AM
I-85 to reopen by 15 June, per GDOT: http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/ (http://www.ajc.com/news/breaking-reopen-june-officials-say/fQcpIeQxcrptK4jarOZSqM/)
Congratulations to GDOT for reopening so quickly!
Now that's progress! :)
They did a great job designing and constructing the replacement bridge spans and completing the project quickly.
Now, we need national standards to be promulgated regarding not storing flammable materials underneath major bridges.
Given that PVC is considered fire retardant...
Quote from: kalvado on May 16, 2017, 02:36:00 PM
Quote from: Beltway on May 16, 2017, 01:52:25 PM
They did a great job designing and constructing the replacement bridge spans and completing the project quickly.
Now, we need national standards to be promulgated regarding not storing flammable materials underneath major bridges.
Given that PVC is considered fire retardant...
Well something obviously burned and in a large enough quantity that it produced enough thermal heat to collapse several bridge spans on each roadway.
Quote from: Tom958 on April 27, 2017, 10:17:20 PMA section of the median barrier on I-85 just south of the viaduct has been cut out, surely for installation of a decades-overdue overhead sign gantry. The new overhead is one mile from the 400 split.
No. To my shock and horror, that section of barrier has been poured back with no provision for a sign gantry. Really, I could understand if a new sign and gantry couldn't be fabricated and installed before the bridge was reopened, but to not even stick a bit of extra concrete and rebar and some big anchor bolts in a hole they'd already made? What the actual... I'm told that some effort was made to incorporate new signage, but something went wrong. Wow.
Now, as before, the only notice of a lane drop for the 400 split is actually beyond the nose of the gore c/o this thing of beauty (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8161808,-84.3631858,3a,18y,37.56h,94.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sB6MNkVmI9oJVxEvmJkCDeA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (actually, it's fun to explain why that sign looks like that! :clap: ). And this after the huge effort and expense put into signing (and re-signing!) across metro Atlanta. Sometimes I think that GDOT's motto must be Derp Omnia Vincit.
My office is just on the far side of the bridge, so I had to deal with the whole time. Powers Ferry south of Windy Ridge Parkway (right where it drops from 3 lanes southbound to 2) was a parking lot every morning.
Lots of this mess could have been avoided had people taken the idea of a tunnel to connect 400 to 675 seriously back when it was brought up in 2010.
Quote from: Finrod on May 28, 2017, 02:17:21 AMLots of this mess could have been avoided had people taken the idea of a tunnel to connect 400 to 675 seriously back when it was brought up in 2010.
Maybe, but now we'll never know for sure. And then again, this is proof that I-420, I-485 and I-675 should've been built out when the opportunity was still there.
Good luck getting any new freeway (or new tollway) corridors built in the greater Atlanta area, no matter how bad the traffic is or will get. As a long-time resident of suburban Atlanta and having spent my entire career in transportation project development, I can testify that this entire metro area is full of smug and militant NIMBY's. Look what happened with the Northern Arc. The outcry from a subdivision (existing or proposed, I don't remember which) in Forsyth County, which in-turn embroiled it in a governor's race basically killed it. You will see a system of toll lanes added to many of the existing freeway corridors plus various interchange improvements, but I would be pleasantly shocked to ever see another single mile of new alignment limited access roadway built anywhere that serves regional needs.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on May 30, 2017, 05:33:23 PM
Good luck getting any new freeway (or new tollway) corridors built in the greater Atlanta area, no matter how bad the traffic is or will get. As a long-time resident of suburban Atlanta and having spent my entire career in transportation project development, I can testify that this entire metro area is full of smug and militant NIMBY's. Look what happened with the Northern Arc. The outcry from a subdivision (existing or proposed, I don't remember which) in Forsyth County, which in-turn embroiled it in a governor's race basically killed it. You will see a system of toll lanes added to many of the existing freeway corridors plus various interchange improvements, but I would be pleasantly shocked to ever see another single mile of new alignment limited access roadway built anywhere that serves regional needs.
compared to the Northeast, I'd say Atlanta is pretty lucky. CT would never have a 16-lane freeway or full beltway. NIMBYs killed it all.
It seems that the "no more freeways" trend is going nationwide.
I suppose the next goal for the New Urbanists will be to call for existing "throughpass" freeways to be torn down, have through traffic diverted to the beltway loops, and have surface at-grade boulevards and light rail networks replace the central freeways for serving downtown and the central neighborhoods...all in the name of "redevelopment".
How all that will handle actual traffic patterns is still up in the air.
We know how the closing of an existing "throughpass" freeway worked out in Atlanta this spring. The collapse of the I-85 bridge served as an unwitting six week experiement. I-285 is normally bad anyway during the workweek anyway. It got even worse. Much of the roadway was virtually undrivable for the majority of daylight hours, even on weekends. I live more than 20 miles from the bridge collapse area and I don't communte downtown, but the indirect traffic effects of that closure even affected me.
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on May 30, 2017, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on May 30, 2017, 05:33:23 PM
Good luck getting any new freeway (or new tollway) corridors built in the greater Atlanta area, no matter how bad the traffic is or will get. As a long-time resident of suburban Atlanta and having spent my entire career in transportation project development, I can testify that this entire metro area is full of smug and militant NIMBY's. Look what happened with the Northern Arc. The outcry from a subdivision (existing or proposed, I don't remember which) in Forsyth County, which in-turn embroiled it in a governor's race basically killed it. You will see a system of toll lanes added to many of the existing freeway corridors plus various interchange improvements, but I would be pleasantly shocked to ever see another single mile of new alignment limited access roadway built anywhere that serves regional needs.
compared to the Northeast, I'd say Atlanta is pretty lucky. CT would never have a 16-lane freeway or full beltway. NIMBYs killed it all.
Do we need all of these freeways? The tolling of I-65's Kennedy Bridge over the Ohio River, and the tolling of I-265 over the Ohio River (both in Louisville) has demonstrated that even with a modest toll, traffic levels will collapse and will remain low - even during rush hour. Congestion pricing and tolls is a great method to encourage mass transit development.
Quote from: Anthony_JK on May 31, 2017, 12:29:21 AM
It seems that the "no more freeways" trend is going nationwide.
I suppose the next goal for the New Urbanists will be to call for existing "throughpass" freeways to be torn down, have through traffic diverted to the beltway loops, and have surface at-grade boulevards and light rail networks replace the central freeways for serving downtown and the central neighborhoods...all in the name of "redevelopment".
How all that will handle actual traffic patterns is still up in the air.
they're already at this point, they want to kill i-70 in denver (thankfully failed), and 980 in oakland. neither make any sense to do, and i've yet to see any evidence that their methods actually work to lower traffic, americans like to drive, nothing will change that. they think that they can turn every city into NYC in terms of transit and density, but now I'm reading that people actually aren't moving back downtown like everyone says, it's starting to go back to suburbs (i'll try to post the articles on this if i have time later)
Quote from: seicer on May 31, 2017, 07:09:51 AM
Quote from: Mergingtraffic on May 30, 2017, 07:36:23 PM
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on May 30, 2017, 05:33:23 PM
Good luck getting any new freeway (or new tollway) corridors built in the greater Atlanta area, no matter how bad the traffic is or will get. As a long-time resident of suburban Atlanta and having spent my entire career in transportation project development, I can testify that this entire metro area is full of smug and militant NIMBY's. Look what happened with the Northern Arc. The outcry from a subdivision (existing or proposed, I don't remember which) in Forsyth County, which in-turn embroiled it in a governor's race basically killed it. You will see a system of toll lanes added to many of the existing freeway corridors plus various interchange improvements, but I would be pleasantly shocked to ever see another single mile of new alignment limited access roadway built anywhere that serves regional needs.
compared to the Northeast, I'd say Atlanta is pretty lucky. CT would never have a 16-lane freeway or full beltway. NIMBYs killed it all.
Do we need all of these freeways? The tolling of I-65's Kennedy Bridge over the Ohio River, and the tolling of I-265 over the Ohio River (both in Louisville) has demonstrated that even with a modest toll, traffic levels will collapse and will remain low - even during rush hour. Congestion pricing and tolls is a great method to encourage mass transit development.
In Atlanta, most certainly, using Louisville as an example here is completely irrelevant. And I'd say Louisville doesn't need all the freeways it has. Using congestion pricing in Atlanta won't turn it into what happened in Louisville, 85 and really all of Atlanta's highways are in the middle of a large, dense population, 265 and 65 (referring to the bridges) are in the sparely populated northern suburbs in Indiana, and there are 2 free alternatives (31 and 64) nearby. traffic also looks to be increasing as well http://www.wdrb.com/story/35225397/traffic-increasing-on-ohio-river-toll-bridges-riverlink-says
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 31, 2017, 07:29:24 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on May 31, 2017, 12:29:21 AM
It seems that the "no more freeways" trend is going nationwide.
I suppose the next goal for the New Urbanists will be to call for existing "throughpass" freeways to be torn down, have through traffic diverted to the beltway loops, and have surface at-grade boulevards and light rail networks replace the central freeways for serving downtown and the central neighborhoods...all in the name of "redevelopment".
How all that will handle actual traffic patterns is still up in the air.
they're already at this point, they want to kill i-70 in denver (thankfully failed), and 980 in oakland. neither make any sense to do, and i've yet to see any evidence that their methods actually work to lower traffic, americans like to drive, nothing will change that. they think that they can turn every city into NYC in terms of transit and density, but now I'm reading that people actually aren't moving back downtown like everyone says, it's starting to go back to suburbs (i'll try to post the articles on this if i have time later)
They've already killed I-710 out in Pasadena.
this is a list of some freeways these new urbanists want to kill https://www.citylab.com/transportation/2017/01/the-highway-hit-list/514965/?utm_source=FB_CL_P_514965_1
Quote from: Henry on May 31, 2017, 08:56:45 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on May 31, 2017, 07:29:24 AM
Quote from: Anthony_JK on May 31, 2017, 12:29:21 AM
It seems that the "no more freeways" trend is going nationwide.
I suppose the next goal for the New Urbanists will be to call for existing "throughpass" freeways to be torn down, have through traffic diverted to the beltway loops, and have surface at-grade boulevards and light rail networks replace the central freeways for serving downtown and the central neighborhoods...all in the name of "redevelopment".
How all that will handle actual traffic patterns is still up in the air.
they're already at this point, they want to kill i-70 in denver (thankfully failed), and 980 in oakland. neither make any sense to do, and i've yet to see any evidence that their methods actually work to lower traffic, americans like to drive, nothing will change that. they think that they can turn every city into NYC in terms of transit and density, but now I'm reading that people actually aren't moving back downtown like everyone says, it's starting to go back to suburbs (i'll try to post the articles on this if i have time later)
They've already killed I-710 out in Pasadena.
Not the same thing as demolishing an existing freeway.
Although the I-85 collapse is a short-term experiment, everyone knew it would be short term, so they didn't undertake long-term solutions like moving to nearer where they work. Although I'm glad I-85 is back, temporary closure is not a representative experiment of what would happen if it was gone permanently.
In Atlanta it would be a good experiment. Besides the sheer size of the metro area and the large population, there are two problems that Atlanta would have in removing any in-town freeways (not that anybody has ever seriously proposed such a thing) - (1) Lack of redundancy in the existing freeway network. Some cities have parallel freeways that could at least take up part of the slack if a freeway is removed. NOT HERE. (2) Very primitive street and arterial grid (what a laugh) network of surface streets. Atlanta nor its suburbs have a well-developed interconnected system of surface roadways. Mant main roads follow ridge lines and have been there for many decades, and there are few connecting roadways in many areas. Streets are often curvy and narrow, often forcing significant traffic onto the freeways that do exist, just for local trips.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on May 31, 2017, 02:54:30 PM
In Atlanta it would be a good experiment. Besides the sheer size of the metro area and the large population, there are two problems that Atlanta would have in removing any in-town freeways (not that anybody has ever seriously proposed such a thing) - (1) Lack of redundancy in the existing freeway network. Some cities have parallel freeways that could at least take up part of the slack if a freeway is removed. NOT HERE. (2) Very primitive street and arterial grid (what a laugh) network of surface streets. Atlanta nor its suburbs have a well-developed interconnected system of surface roadways. Mant main roads follow ridge lines and have been there for many decades, and there are few connecting roadways in many areas. Streets are often curvy and narrow, often forcing significant traffic onto the freeways that do exist, just for local trips.
Most cities with parallel freeways don't have much excess capacity, so the whole "there's no parallel freeways" thought isn't relevant, as the other highway will quickly become jammed. Or the traffic network to and from that alternative route would be congested. If anything, Atlanta's issue worked out WELL because they have a significant beltway around the city. Traffic could get to I-20 or I-75 with relative ease. Yep, it was jammed, because a major route was out of commission.
Even in cities where there is duplication, that may be the case for one or two highways, but probably not all of them.
The likelihood of any highway being out of commission is pretty rare. While traffic engineers and coordinators try to plan for such events, the location of the incident is a major factor. If the I-85 incident happened a few miles to the north, the necessary detours would've been much different.
"Atlanta's issue worked out WELL because they have a significant beltway around the city."
I am not trying to start an argument here. But I live here and I lived through the bridge outage. I-285 is indeed a significant beltway, but it had no reserve capacity to begin with. Adding 50,000 to 100,000 vehicles per day to it, made significant parts of it a parking lot all day every day. It didn't work out well, traffic-wise. I-20 and I-75 were adversely affected as well, although I-285 and surface streets in parts of Atlanta got hurt the worst.
The bridge got fixed in 6 weeks, because this area was going to choke in traffic otherwise otherwise. Kudos to GDOT for getting this fixed quickly.
Quote from: RoadWarrior56 on May 31, 2017, 03:57:06 PM
"Atlanta's issue worked out WELL because they have a significant beltway around the city."
I am not trying to start an argument here. But I live here and I lived through the bridge outage. I-285 is indeed a significant beltway, but it had no reserve capacity to begin with. Adding 50,000 to 100,000 vehicles per day to it, made significant parts of it a parking lot all day every day. It didn't work out well, traffic-wise. I-20 and I-75 were adversely affected as well, although I-285 and surface streets in parts of Atlanta got hurt the worst.
The bridge got fixed in 6 weeks, because this area was going to choke in traffic otherwise otherwise. Kudos to GDOT for getting this fixed quickly.
I couldn't agree with this more. I-285 is a nightmare during rush hour under normal conditions; Atlanta has grown to where half the metro area population is outside of it, and so it's not a 'bypass' any more by any reasonable definition.
Personally I had little sympathy for the traffic problems that central Dekalb County had, because it was the fault of the NIMBYs there that there wasn't any extra freeway capacity or grid to handle it, because those bastards got all those freeways canceled. Go to wikipedia and put in 'Atlanta freeway revolts' to see what the planned expressway map of Atlanta was supposed to look like.
While looking around in Street View near the I-85 bridge, I noticed a photo sphere (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8139678,-84.366289,3a,100.7y,117.68h,88.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCAoSLEFGMVFpcE5rOTZFYVh3MmZPdld5TzJZekJNckloVTdRVUdjR2szd01WTnNh!2e0), and it was a picture of the construction.
Quote from: Michael on January 24, 2018, 02:05:00 PM
While looking around in Street View near the I-85 bridge, I noticed a photo sphere (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8139678,-84.366289,3a,100.7y,117.68h,88.96t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sCAoSLEFGMVFpcE5rOTZFYVh3MmZPdld5TzJZekJNckloVTdRVUdjR2szd01WTnNh!2e0), and it was a picture of the construction.
Almost looks like they are building a wooden bridge
Just happened to have this 5-year video retrospective of the event pop up for me on YouTube. It's a good watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RN7wOO331Lg
That was a fun local news doc. Though I do have one large criticism; how does one put together a three-part report 17 minutes long about that topic and not include ONE SINGLE MAP! I mean come on! That's a huge oversight in my mind.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 20, 2022, 12:01:22 PM
That was a fun local news doc. Though I do have one large criticism; how does one put together a three-part report 17 minutes long about that topic and not include ONE SINGLE MAP! I mean come on! That's a huge oversight in my mind.
My thought exactly. I had to listen to the cop talking to find the right place.
But if the piece is designed for local consumption, they assume the audience already knows where Piedmont Street is.
Quote from: triplemultiplex on April 20, 2022, 12:01:22 PM
That was a fun local news doc. Though I do have one large criticism; how does one put together a three-part report 17 minutes long about that topic and not include ONE SINGLE MAP! I mean come on! That's a huge oversight in my mind.
You're a roadgeek. They are not.