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Tappan Zee Bridge replacement moving at a snail's pace

Started by SidS1045, June 27, 2012, 11:38:49 AM

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Alps

Quote from: hbelkins on August 14, 2012, 09:40:44 PM
Is there a particular reason that 84 near Danbury jams up so badly as to be the stuff of legends?
Truth be told, I haven't had problems with Danbury. Waterbury is the typical jam, and then along the way between Danbury and Waterbury the 2-lane section is often slow going. The problem in Danbury is the merge and diverge with US 7, which is a 2+2=3 and 3=2+2 zipper with a couple of exits between.


vdeane

Traffic was heavier in Danbury than Waterbury when I went to New Haven last year, though there was some construction and it wasn't to levels to cause delays.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

PHLBOS

Quote from: hbelkins on August 14, 2012, 09:40:44 PM
Is there a particular reason that 84 near Danbury jams up so badly as to be the stuff of legends?
Here are some:

1.  There is a mall (Danbury Mall(?)) located near Exit 3 (US 7 South).  During the holidays, traffic leading to mall can literally back up onto I-84.  Note: Exit 3 is also a Left Lane Exit from I-84 West.

2.  West of Exit 7 (US 7 North & US 202 East), I-84 drops from 6 lanes to 4 lanes w/an occasional climbing lane.  Exit 7 is a Left lane Exit from I-84 East.  Given the amount of through-traffic this highway gets, this part of I-84 (west of Exit 7) needs to be wider than just 4 lanes.

3.  US 7 traffic multiplexing with I-84 between Exits 3 and 7.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

shadyjay

In my experience, Danbury itself wasn't as bad as the stretch climbing up to Waterbury, and of course Waterbury itself.  Of course on a Friday afternoon, it didn't matter what road you took - I-84, I-95, or the Merritt... they were all bad.


Duke87

Quote from: PHLBOS on August 15, 2012, 02:35:09 PM
There is a mall (Danbury Mall(?)) located near Exit 3 (US 7 South).

Technically known as the "Danbury Fair Mall", though everyone I've ever talked to calls it "the Danbury mall"... unless you're from Danbury, in which case it's just "the mall".
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

cpzilliacus

TOLLROADSnews: New York Governor gets metro area OK for new Tappan Zee Bridge - now after TIFIA loan

Quote2012-08-21: A new Tappan Zee Bridge plan championed by the governor of New York State Andrew Cuomo got the unanimous approval of the New York Metropolitan Transportation Commission (NYMTC) in a special meeting Monday allowing the New York State Thruway Authority owner of the bridge to apply for a federally supported TIFIA loan. Immediately after the vote the state Governor emailed US sec-trans Ray LaHood urging his support for the project.

QuoteCuomo said in a statement: "After over a decade of delay caused by political dysfunction, this letter demonstrates that we are making real progress towards constructing a stronger, transit-ready bridge that will reduce congestion for year to come."
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

NE2

I know there was a discussion somewhere about the Port Authority district and how the Tappan Zee was built outside it, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's a map of the district boundaries: http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/PortAuthorityDistrict1979/index.htm
Yep, it crosses the Thruway just east of the bridge.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Alps

Quote from: NE2 on September 15, 2012, 10:12:52 AM
I know there was a discussion somewhere about the Port Authority district and how the Tappan Zee was built outside it, but I can't find it. Anyway, here's a map of the district boundaries: http://mapmaker.rutgers.edu/PortAuthorityDistrict1979/index.htm
Yep, it crosses the Thruway just east of the bridge.
District for what? It crosses through the middle of Westchester Co. Airport and includes some other ones (Passaic County) that aren't PA property. If it's just bridges, why not just show the Hudson?

NE2

pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Duke87

Interesting. I was told by someone who works for the Port Authority that their jurisdiction was defined as a circle with a radius of 25 miles centered at the Statue of Liberty, and I've definitely heard similar from other sources. Must be a common misconception.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: Duke87 on September 16, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Interesting. I was told by someone who works for the Port Authority that their jurisdiction was defined as a circle with a radius of 25 miles centered at the Statue of Liberty, and I've definitely heard similar from other sources. Must be a common misconception.
Why would they know any better than anyone else? Employees aren't in charge of monitoring ports. I guess the map is only good for water mapping, and doesn't cover other PA facilities?

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Steve on September 17, 2012, 07:33:00 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on September 16, 2012, 10:20:24 AM
Interesting. I was told by someone who works for the Port Authority that their jurisdiction was defined as a circle with a radius of 25 miles centered at the Statue of Liberty, and I've definitely heard similar from other sources. Must be a common misconception.
Why would they know any better than anyone else? Employees aren't in charge of monitoring ports. I guess the map is only good for water mapping, and doesn't cover other PA facilities?

And Stewart Airport, which is now run by the PANYNJ is rather far beyond that boundary near Newburgh, in Orange County, N.Y.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Dougtone

Federal approval of the environmental impact statement for the Tappan Zee Bridge replacement has been announced.  On to the next stage now...

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Feds-approve-impact-report-for-NY-s-new-Tappan-Zee-3894075.php

cpzilliacus

Quote from: Dougtone on September 26, 2012, 07:29:24 AM
Federal approval of the environmental impact statement for the Tappan Zee Bridge replacement has been announced.  On to the next stage now...

http://www.timesunion.com/news/article/Feds-approve-impact-report-for-NY-s-new-Tappan-Zee-3894075.php

Is it safe to assume that the Sierra Club and the TSTC will be filing suit in federal court in a bid to force a remand of the environmental impact statement?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

cpzilliacus

Bloomberg Op-Ed: Don't Build a New Tappan Zee Bridge

QuoteThe Tappan Zee Bridge up the Hudson River from New York City should never have been built in the first place. Spanning three miles between Rockland County in the west and Westchester County in the east, about 20 miles north of Times Square, the bridge is built at one of the widest points in the Hudson, defying basic precepts of good engineering.

QuoteThe bridge was built to suit New York politicians, who didn't want to have to share the bridge with New Jersey. If it had been built south a few miles, as geography dictates, it would have connected two states and been under the control of the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey.

QuoteNow the bridge is congested with traffic and, in its old age, has become expensive to maintain. So New York has decided to replace it with a new, wider bridge, at a cost of $5.2 billion.
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Alps

It would cost far more to build a new bridge somewhere else and have to rout I-87/287 to meet it. Not to mention that the article is wrong about why the bridge wasn't built farther south. We just discussed the Port Authority circle of influence, but fact is, there was an agreement just to the south, and the Thruway wasn't going to have the Port Authority in charge of one of its bridges. (Good idea.)

cpzilliacus

#66
Quote from: Steve on September 28, 2012, 08:08:57 PM
It would cost far more to build a new bridge somewhere else and have to rout I-87/287 to meet it.

And consider the impact on the built environments of Westchester and Rockland Counties.

Quote from: Steve on September 28, 2012, 08:08:57 PM
Not to mention that the article is wrong about why the bridge wasn't built farther south. We just discussed the Port Authority circle of influence, but fact is, there was an agreement just to the south, and the Thruway wasn't going to have the Port Authority in charge of one of its bridges. (Good idea.)

I don't know enough about how the Port Authority runs its crossings to make any statement either way, though they seem to me to be in decent enough condition (I hate the Port Authority's three big airports (JFK, LGA and EWR), and won't use them under any circumstances after too many bad experiences with overseas connections - fortunately, there is decent overseas service out of IAD (a vastly better airport than anything run by the Port Authority) and to a lesser extent out of BWI (still, a much better airport than the ones run by the Port Authority)).

Regarding the Thruway, it seems to maintain its highways well, and as a practical matter, it would be stupid to have the two sections of the Thruway "interrupted" by a crossing under Port Authority jurisdiction.  Though didn't we have something like that when "free" I-84 was maintained by the Thruway Authority with the Beacon Bridge "in the middle" over the Hudson River at Newburgh?
Opinions expressed here on AAROADS are strictly personal and mine alone, and do not reflect policies or positions of MWCOG, NCRTPB or their member federal, state, county and municipal governments or any other agency.

Dougtone

Thanks to LoHud.com and the New York State Archives, we get an oldie, but a goodie.  This is a road video from yesteryear, well actually a promotional film from the 1950s regarding the New York Thruway's Tappan Zee Bridge.
http://polhudson.lohudblogs.com/2012/09/27/video-the-tappan-zee-bridge-in-1955/

Alps

Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 28, 2012, 09:19:24 PM
Quote from: Steve on September 28, 2012, 08:08:57 PM
Not to mention that the article is wrong about why the bridge wasn't built farther south. We just discussed the Port Authority circle of influence, but fact is, there was an agreement just to the south, and the Thruway wasn't going to have the Port Authority in charge of one of its bridges. (Good idea.)

I don't know enough about how the Port Authority runs its crossings to make any statement either way, though they seem to me to be in decent enough condition (I hate the Port Authority's three big airports (JFK, LGA and EWR), and won't use them under any circumstances after too many bad experiences with overseas connections - fortunately, there is decent overseas service out of IAD (a vastly better airport than anything run by the Port Authority) and to a lesser extent out of BWI (still, a much better airport than the ones run by the Port Authority)).

Regarding the Thruway, it seems to maintain its highways well, and as a practical matter, it would be stupid to have the two sections of the Thruway "interrupted" by a crossing under Port Authority jurisdiction.  Though didn't we have something like that when "free" I-84 was maintained by the Thruway Authority with the Beacon Bridge "in the middle" over the Hudson River at Newburgh?
That latter point is the spirit of my statement - that one state agency (other than DOT) does NOT like it when another state agency tries to tread on their turf. The reason it's a good idea to avoid that situation is all the interagency coordination that's needed down the road. Let's say the NYSTA was ready to widen the Thruway to 5 lanes each way on either side, but the Port Authority said nah, we like our 6-lane Tappan Zee the way it is. At least this way, one authority maintains one continuous road.

mc78andrew

You have to love op-Ed's like this.  The author states that both counties are irredeemably auto oriented yet still fantasizes that people will be better off without a new bridge.  I'll say what I always say about people who do not live in the real world. "Must be nice"!

Zmapper

4 kilometers long, 8 lanes wide, over a shipping channel, designed by Parsons, built in America. Price tag: $700 Million.

As long as the Tappan Zee exceeds that figure eightfold, and will likely increase in price as construction starts, the financially responsible answer is a clear no-build. Unless and until the cost can be knocked down to under 2 Billion (still nearly thrice as much as the Cooper River bridge), then any new bridge will be little more than welfare spending to unions and politically favorable corporations.

The Tappan Zee isn't even considered structurally deficient, nor are trucks restricted. Fears that the bridge will collapse like I-35W are overblown, and groups spreading that lie are generally those who will receive the welfare check.

If the problem is a capacity issue, then it can be fixed by converting the toll booth to license plate tolling like E-470 in Denver or 407 in Toronto feature (sorry unionized overpaid toll collectors, you're out!), and extending the fourth lane westbound to the Palisades Interstate Parkway. Furthermore, additional buses could be operated, perhaps even converting the reversible lane in the center to HOV only.  There are very easy and cost effective ways to add capacity without spending billions on a new bridge.

mc78andrew

The cooper river bridge is a beauty and a bargin too. 

This isn't sc though and it never will be.  I have no real bid for the unions as I agree they make things more expensive.  That said, they are never going away.  So it's either pay them now or pay them later IMO. 

Having drivin this bridge on weekedays twice a day for 3.5 years your suggestion for continuing that 4th lane to the palisades pkwy makes a great deal sense.  Although I would guess that cost would run into the high several hundred millions.  Clearly eliminating the toll booths would help, but there are no toll booths headed westbound now and traffic is a disaster. 

Unfortuneatly, your two additional approach enhancements combined with the new bridge are the only real answers.  Status quo is just not an option at almost any real cost....5B, 10B or whatever. 

I know we are not really debating sprawl here, but you have to consider the cost of housing in westchester versus rockland and beyond. Commuting is the only option for most people given the high cost of housing.  I moved from northern nj to westchester to be closer to my job once the TZB commute got to be too much.  I pay triple the property taxes in westchester and my house is not a nice but cost about the same.  I can afford it, but most cannot.  Even a crushing 14 dollar toll is still cheaper than moving to westchester, thus another reason the 5B is worth it IMO.

Metro ny can be a nightmare, but it's home.

NE2

Quote from: Zmapper on September 29, 2012, 10:15:15 PM
4 kilometers long, 8 lanes wide, over a shipping channel, designed by Parsons, built in America. Price tag: $700 Million.
Hmmm. River depths are the same too (40 feet). Fuck unionized AARoads modding for changing sarcasm into apparent agreement.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

Duke87

Consider not just the river depth but the soil conditions underneath. Can't speak for Cooper River, but the bed of the Hudson at the Tappan Zee has such poor soil that it can't support the bridge on top of it and thus about a third of the current bridge's weight is supported by buoyancy with hollow caissons. I'd imagine that adds significantly to the cost of building a new bridge there.

Not going to deny that union work rules (you must have at least three guys standing around watching for every one guy actually doing something) balloon costs around here though. As does the fact that the cost of living is higher, though that can't be helped.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: NE2 on September 29, 2012, 11:12:59 PM
Quote from: Zmapper on September 29, 2012, 10:15:15 PM
4 kilometers long, 8 lanes wide, over a shipping channel, designed by Parsons, built in America. Price tag: $700 Million.
Hmmm. River depths are the same too (40 feet). Fuck unionized AARoads modding for changing sarcasm into apparent agreement.
If you didn't violate our policies on excessive swearing, we wouldn't have had to moderate your post in the first place. Please take that to heart.



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