Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

Started by NJRoadfan, June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM

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mrsman

Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
Puyallup, Washington has been installing some new flashing yellow arrows. They mostly replace 5-section heads, but some are new outright.

The biggest catch with these new signals is how pedestrians play into the phasing. Check out this snippet from the formal document according the city $530k in federal grants:

Quote from: same quote repeated throughout document
...replace traffic signal controllers, conflict monitors, and cabinets; modify peak hour signal timings to disable the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed; and do incidental work required to accomplish this.

I've brought up disabling the flashing yellow arrow during pedestrian phasing prior to now. While the idea has been dabbled with by cities outside of Seattle, namely Bellevue and Redmond, Puyallup appears to be the first major city, at least in Washington, to outright ban permissive phasing during times when the pedestrian crossing phase is activated, at all intersections. I actually wasted a bunch of time today, going around and checking out the current FYA's around Puyallup. Sure enough, the red arrow pops up when the crosswalk is activated. I'm not really sure what they mean when they say "peak hour", because all of the crossings I tested disabled the phase in the middle of the afternoon. I'll need to go back and check later, at different times of the day, to see whether or not the time of day plays into whether or not the red arrow or flashing yellow arrow is called.

I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.

Are the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?


jakeroot

Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PM
Are the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

Last I checked, the entire phase. But I'll need to check again to confirm that this is the case.

mrsman

Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 05:43:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
I don't think Washington State should roll out these FYAs until some real world numbers come in that indicate they are indeed safer for pedestrians.

By all accounts, Bellevue, WA's rollout is a study of their effectiveness. If they don't work, they'll rip them out (err, disable the phasing). If they do, they'll keep them.

When I was up in Bellevue today, I noticed that some of the FYA's gave the crosswalk the walk sign before the FYA was turned on, so that pedestrians were well into the crosswalk before drivers could proceed (to make it plain, not all of Bellevue's FYA's have 24/7/365 "ped minus left" phasing -- the only signals that have them, were ones that were previously protected only, and they're only enabled during peak hours). I've seen this phasing a lot in Downtown Seattle, and other cities across the US (pedestrian pre-emption or something like that).

LPI or leading ped interval.  Very common in areas where there is no turn on red.  Allow the peds to walk for a few seconds before red turns to green, so that turners can actually see the peds in the crosswalks.  What you discuss above is a great application in the context of turning left and is not quite as onerous as the "ped minus left" which seems to mean that no left turns at all, if there is a ped signal actuated.

I know of an intersection in Baltimore that does this, but it is slightly different as this is a left turn from one-way to one-way.  When the light first turns green, peds and straight traffic can go, but left turners see a red arrow.  After about 10 seconds, the red arrow disappears and now left turners operate with a green ball - a permissive left, yielding to peds.

See here:  https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2866892,-76.6135629,3a,75y,185.24h,79.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sefofjL7wZFXZZo-FOAaCvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



Another similar issue - in  a different context - are the midblock signalized ped crossings.  A ped pushes the button.  The signal goes from green-yellow-red.  The ped crosses and walks relatively fast so he gets to the other side of the street.  Meanwhile traffic is held up with a red light.  To address these issues, there are some special signals that allow for the car traffic to go, becuase the solid red will then become a flashing red (HAWK signals, flashing red signals in Downtown LA). 

The LPI is a similar thing, peds only at the start of the cycle, cars may proceed after a few seconds, if there are no pedestrians present.

tradephoric

Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here). 

mrsman

Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here).

The Ped minus left signal setting is still an improvement over a completely protected only left turn.  I'm guessing that their might be some political reasons for suggeting this phasing - that there may be resistance among pedestrian activist types.  The ped minus left phasing provides the exact same level of safety for peds that push buttons and wait for the walk signal as protected only left turns.

But it is still annoying because you would have to wait even if there is nobody there.

An LPI would provide a very reasonable compromise.  Red arrow for only the first 5-10 seconds of the crossing, and then permissive left turns.  If you are the only one there (no peds, no opposing vehicles) then you can turn.

tradephoric

Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 02:27:58 PM
An LPI would provide a very reasonable compromise.  Red arrow for only the first 5-10 seconds of the crossing, and then permissive left turns.  If you are the only one there (no peds, no opposing vehicles) then you can turn.

Opposing through traffic can act as a natural barrier protecting pedestrians during the first 5-10 seconds of a permissive left turn phase.   Drivers have enough confusion with the FYA that it might not be a great idea to start the FYA in the middle of a through green phase.   That said, more agencies are applying LPI for through phases (and assuming the FYA isn't allowed to start flashing until the through green is on, it has the same effect as what you are describing).   I'd be on board with that compromise.

vdeane

Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here). 

Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here).

I think a fully-protected ped interval is a fairly reasonable compromise in town centers, but, ridiculous elsewhere. Out in the "burbs", a crossing may only have one or two pedestrians at a given time, so a leading pedestrian interval works better.

As for dual-left turns, the same phasing for single lane left turns should apply to dual left turns. I'd like to see FYA's installed at all left turn locations, regardless of the number of lanes, and have them operate on a TOD schedule (after all, dual and triple turns only exist because of high volumes, which are irrelevant outside of peak hours), or alternatively, permit all-day dual permissive turns if there is a left turn off-set for the oncoming left turn lane.

Frankly, I'd rather see all-way walks in downtown cores over ped minus left, to cut down on both left- and right-turn pedestrian conflicts. But, that idea seems to be dying.

tradephoric

Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?

This law is out of Colorado: 
42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles

10. b. A person shall not ride a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle upon and along a sidewalk or pathway or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk where such use of bicycles or electrical assisted bicycles is prohibited by official traffic control devices or local ordinances. A person riding a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle shall dismount before entering any crosswalk where required by official traffic control devices or local ordinances.

But I rarely see cyclists dismount when entering a crosswalk.  Probably only becomes an issue if a cyclist gets struck in the crosswalk.

myosh_tino

Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 08:24:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?

This law is out of Colorado: 
42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles

10. b. A person shall not ride a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle upon and along a sidewalk or pathway or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk where such use of bicycles or electrical assisted bicycles is prohibited by official traffic control devices or local ordinances. A person riding a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle shall dismount before entering any crosswalk where required by official traffic control devices or local ordinances.

But I rarely see cyclists dismount when entering a crosswalk.  Probably only becomes an issue if a cyclist gets struck in the crosswalk.

I do but it's almost always children riding their bikes to and from school.  I have never seen an adult do this unless they were riding with their kids (presumably to set a good example).
Quote from: golden eagle
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Jim

Maybe this is not news, but it's the first I saw it.  The lone traffic signal in Williamstown, Mass., now includes a flashing yellow left turn signal.  It was at least a year since my last ride through there, so maybe it's been there a while.  I was there on June 25.

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cl94

Saw a couple on NY 30A in Johnstown earlier today that were not there a year ago.
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Quillz

I just came back from vacation recently and came across flashing yellow turn arrows in Idaho, Montana, and Washington.

Quillz

So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

Ace10

Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

swbrotha100

Arizona has these in various cities, but the city of Phoenix will have their first one activated soon:

https://www.phoenix.gov/news/streets/1393

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.

kj3400

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.
Call me Kenny/Kenneth. No, seriously.

Ace10

I'll rephrase that first sentence.

The separate flashing arrow [signal] allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while [through traffic is simultaneously halted by a separate through signal].

I didn't mean to imply that the flashing arrow also simultaneously halts through traffic, even though that's pretty much exactly what I wrote initially. I meant to place more emphasis on the fact that the flashing arrow signal is separate from the through movement signals.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.

I'm not sure which direction you're referring to, but it's mostly incorrect.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing left arrow, my direction may also have a green ball for straight thru traffic.  It could also have a red ball if the opposing direction has a green arrow.  But it's definitely not implied, and in this case, the yellow flashing arrow has nothing to do with my direction's straight thru traffic light color.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing yellow left arrow, the opposing direction will have a green ball, allowing for straight thru traffic.  If the opposing direction had a red ball, I should be approaching the intersection seeing a solid green left arrow.

jakeroot

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.

I'm not sure which direction you're referring to, but it's mostly incorrect.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing left arrow, my direction may also have a green ball for straight thru traffic.  It could also have a red ball if the opposing direction has a green arrow.  But it's definitely not implied, and in this case, the yellow flashing arrow has nothing to do with my direction's straight thru traffic light color.

Oh for fucks sake. Ace10's entire second paragraph (quoted below) has to do with parallel through traffic seeing a red light. The "implication" that kj3400 refers to is Ace10's use of the word "red" twice in this paragraph, which is (IMO) enough to conclude that the final sentence involves parallel through traffic seeing a red orb.

I'm sorry you couldn't figure this out, but, guessing by the fact that you were the only one to respond to him, I think it's safe to say that you were the only one confused. :-P

Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

kj3400

Call me Kenny/Kenneth. No, seriously.

Stephane Dumas


20160805

To update about Appleton, WI:

They're everywhere now in Appleton and the neighboring Grand Chute Twp.  Neighboring Menasha also has at least two.

Personally I'm indifferent about them; I guess they're just what they put in now.
Left for 5 months Oct 2018-Mar 2019 due to arguing in the DST thread.
Tried coming back Mar 2019.
Left again Jul 2019 due to more arguing.

MASTERNC

Not sure if someone already posted this but the flashing yellow arrow has made an appearance in Midtown Manhattan (7th Ave & 31st Street, in front of Penn Station).




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