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US-41 Interstate Conversion

Started by ssummers72, February 10, 2009, 09:43:31 AM

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skluth

Quote from: jprocknow on October 22, 2014, 04:18:36 PM
Because they don't have money, which is because they're spending (likely) a million some dollars (or more) to unnecessarily sign this corridor which is already signed for a 41 N-S, which is once again my point.  I regret ever saying anything about the numbering grid!  They painted themselves into a corner with capacity by allowing properties to be built right up next to the interstates, ignored mass transit options, and failing to build proper alternate routes.    :banghead:

The interstate conversion costs money, but the entire point of upgrading 41 to interstate standards was to improve business in the Fox Valley. When community leaders want to sell their community to business, it sounds much better to say your city has an interstate to/through it than your city has a freeway that connects to the interstate system. Interstates have much higher standards than freeways. It's why we have interstates terminating in Lubbock, Wichita Falls, and Quincy. The $12 million in sign modifications will more than pay for itself in the business it attracts. I grew up in Green Bay. I-43 means almost as much economically as the Packers.


SEWIGuy

Quote from: jprocknow on October 22, 2014, 11:36:59 PM
Now you're just trolling.


No I'm not.  You are complaining about the cost of signage, but then you said that the I-43E / I-43W idea "isn't half bad."  But of course to do that you would have to change every I-43 sign to I-43E from the Hale interchange to Green Bay. 

I'm just pointing out inconsistencies in your arguments.

FightingIrish

Quote from: skluth on October 23, 2014, 12:00:36 AM
Quote from: jprocknow on October 22, 2014, 04:18:36 PM
Because they don't have money, which is because they're spending (likely) a million some dollars (or more) to unnecessarily sign this corridor which is already signed for a 41 N-S, which is once again my point.  I regret ever saying anything about the numbering grid!  They painted themselves into a corner with capacity by allowing properties to be built right up next to the interstates, ignored mass transit options, and failing to build proper alternate routes.    :banghead:

The interstate conversion costs money, but the entire point of upgrading 41 to interstate standards was to improve business in the Fox Valley. When community leaders want to sell their community to business, it sounds much better to say your city has an interstate to/through it than your city has a freeway that connects to the interstate system. Interstates have much higher standards than freeways. It's why we have interstates terminating in Lubbock, Wichita Falls, and Quincy. The $12 million in sign modifications will more than pay for itself in the business it attracts. I grew up in Green Bay. I-43 means almost as much economically as the Packers.

You are absolutely correct. The sign funds are an investment, and one that will attract returns and then some. The Lake Winnebago area has been growing fast for years, and the corridor through the northwest Milwaukee suburbs has been exploding as well. US 41 has long been a major commercial route, with a significant presence of heavy trucks. And upgrades around the Zoo Interchange are moving very quickly. This is one of the most important routes in the state, and is certainly worthy of interstate status.

jprocknow

Quote from: skluth on October 23, 2014, 12:00:36 AM
The interstate conversion costs money, but the entire point of upgrading 41 to interstate standards was to improve business in the Fox Valley. When community leaders want to sell their community to business, it sounds much better to say your city has an interstate to/through it than your city has a freeway that connects to the interstate system. Interstates have much higher standards than freeways. It's why we have interstates terminating in Lubbock, Wichita Falls, and Quincy. The $12 million in sign modifications will more than pay for itself in the business it attracts. I grew up in Green Bay. I-43 means almost as much economically as the Packers.
Quote from: FightingIrish on October 23, 2014, 10:10:08 AM
You are absolutely correct. The sign funds are an investment, and one that will attract returns and then some. The Lake Winnebago area has been growing fast for years, and the corridor through the northwest Milwaukee suburbs has been exploding as well. US 41 has long been a major commercial route, with a significant presence of heavy trucks. And upgrades around the Zoo Interchange are moving very quickly. This is one of the most important routes in the state, and is certainly worthy of interstate status.

I can't disagree with either of you at all.  I've seen the huge growth from Oshkosh and northward and am absolutely for an interstate designation through there.  Then travelers know what they're going to get; a high-speed, limited-access highway with lots of facilities and close proximity to large towns, as opposed to US highways, which take all different forms.  That investment is definitely worth it, whatever fraction of the $8-12 million it costs.
You might not have read my earlier argument, but the part I'm against is designating I-41 south of the Zoo.  Whatever that specific cost is to sign from the Zoo to the I-94/US 41 split is not, in my mind, worth it.  It won't bring any extra business to that region and is superfluous.  But obviously, WisDOT paid somebody some money and was told that it's worth it.  I'd love to see that report.

merrycilantro

My opinion is, going along with the idea that bringing an Interstate through the Fox Valley and Fox Cities will attract business and what not, Taking I-41 down as far as it can go (i.e. 0.9 miles into Illinois) goes hand in hand with what you are saying. "I can take I-41 from Chicago to Green Bay" is easier for someone unfamiliar with the area, than "OK so you're gonna go 94 to Milwaukee, and when you get to the 894 bypass, go west and  follow that to I-41." I am all for the "One Number" philosophy, which is why I was big on bringing 55 or 57 up. Because why create another number? But we all know how that went. Now, 41 coming into Illinois, I believe, would bring more traffic up this way, because it makes 41 not "just another weird Wisconsin intrastate". At the same time encouraging, or at the very least, leaving the door open, for Illinois to follow suit and bring it even further into Chicago, perhaps to one of the major East-West Cross Country Interstates (thinking I-80, or I-90). I mean one could even argue to decommission US 41 from Indiana say, all the way to Marquette Michigan (where I believe it ends). Then there's no problem with Duplex of I-41/US41.

Long story short (too late), I'm calling it the Lizard Effect, how they can dip their tails into warm or cool water to regulate their temperature, We're dipping our tail as far into Illinois as possible to bring  bigger stuff northward and show the nation that we exist. This all makes sense in my head so if I've lost anyone I do apologize. Having a hard time using my words today apparently.

I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

Henry

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
My opinion is, going along with the idea that bringing an Interstate through the Fox Valley and Fox Cities will attract business and what not, Taking I-41 down as far as it can go (i.e. 0.9 miles into Illinois) goes hand in hand with what you are saying. "I can take I-41 from Chicago to Green Bay" is easier for someone unfamiliar with the area, than "OK so you're gonna go 94 to Milwaukee, and when you get to the 894 bypass, go west and  follow that to I-41." I am all for the "One Number" philosophy, which is why I was big on bringing 55 or 57 up. Because why create another number? But we all know how that went. Now, 41 coming into Illinois, I believe, would bring more traffic up this way, because it makes 41 not "just another weird Wisconsin intrastate". At the same time encouraging, or at the very least, leaving the door open, for Illinois to follow suit and bring it even further into Chicago, perhaps to one of the major East-West Cross Country Interstates (thinking I-80, or I-90). I mean one could even argue to decommission US 41 from Indiana say, all the way to Marquette Michigan (where I believe it ends). Then there's no problem with Duplex of I-41/US41.

Long story short (too late), I'm calling it the Lizard Effect, how they can dip their tails into warm or cool water to regulate their temperature, We're dipping our tail as far into Illinois as possible to bring  bigger stuff northward and show the nation that we exist. This all makes sense in my head so if I've lost anyone I do apologize. Having a hard time using my words today apparently.

I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.
Yes, that's another way to go. For one, everyone in Chicago calls it Lake Shore Drive, not US 41, so they wouldn't miss the number if it were gone from there.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

jprocknow

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
My opinion is, going along with the idea that bringing an Interstate through the Fox Valley and Fox Cities will attract business and what not, Taking I-41 down as far as it can go (i.e. 0.9 miles into Illinois) goes hand in hand with what you are saying. "I can take I-41 from Chicago to Green Bay" is easier for someone unfamiliar with the area, than "OK so you're gonna go 94 to Milwaukee, and when you get to the 894 bypass, go west and  follow that to I-41." I am all for the "One Number" philosophy, which is why I was big on bringing 55 or 57 up. Because why create another number? But we all know how that went. Now, 41 coming into Illinois, I believe, would bring more traffic up this way, because it makes 41 not "just another weird Wisconsin intrastate". At the same time encouraging, or at the very least, leaving the door open, for Illinois to follow suit and bring it even further into Chicago, perhaps to one of the major East-West Cross Country Interstates (thinking I-80, or I-90). I mean one could even argue to decommission US 41 from Indiana say, all the way to Marquette Michigan (where I believe it ends). Then there's no problem with Duplex of I-41/US41.

Long story short (too late), I'm calling it the Lizard Effect, how they can dip their tails into warm or cool water to regulate their temperature, We're dipping our tail as far into Illinois as possible to bring  bigger stuff northward and show the nation that we exist. This all makes sense in my head so if I've lost anyone I do apologize. Having a hard time using my words today apparently.

I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I've got no issue with the "one number" philosophy.  It makes total sense and obviously simplifies giving directions.  The problem, clearly, is that not everyone is coming from the same place.  In your scenario, you'll still have to get a driver from Chicago to I-41 to send them to the Fox Valley, so you can't just say "take I-41 the whole way."  Do you remove one or two numbers while going through Milwaukee by designating I-41 to the border?  Yes, but I think it starts to split hairs when one asks, how many extra route interchanges is one too many.
As proposed right now, taking I-41 to IL is kind of poking them to continue it south (to where, exactly?), I agree with that.  But as it is, it IS one of those weird WI interstates, and is actually weirder to me by just taking it into IL <1 mile, especially when WisDOT uses that <1 mile as justification that it's now a bonafide inTERstate.  So what's stopping them from putting I-43 to Rockton Road?  Not consistent and just obscure all around.  Besides, AASTO (who yes, approved this I-41 plan) has a policy of limiting concurrencies between major junctions or cities.  It's an old policy, but I don't see how in today's world it's now obsolete.  Maybe routing it there is the impetus for some agency (or IL themselves) to extend I-41 to Chicago proper some day, but until then it's just strange (to me).  And unnecessarily expensive.

Brandon

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

merrycilantro

I just realized that before I could edit it. I'm thinking perhaps of US 51. Whole 'nother ball game. If they were to truncate 41, logically speaking, I-41 could go all the way to I-80 duplexed on I-294 or even supplanting if they so chose. Thus making it a truly Chicago-Northward interstate and providing number continuity throughout. Maybe even ditching I-94 and having that end in Milwaukee, but that would mean a whole bunch of re-signing and headaches and money. Not to mention delving into the Fictional Highways Realm.

I'm still pointing the finger of blame at IDOT here.

Brandon

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 02:02:31 PM
I'm still pointing the finger of blame at IDOT here.

Oh, IDiOT (and the IDPW) deserves a lot of the blame.  Had they simply extended I-57 or I-55 (I-57 would've been easy), all of this would've been unnecessary.  But, IDOT (and IDPW) is fairly pig-headed when it comes to A) working with other states, and B) building/widening roads for nonpolitical reasons.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

merrycilantro

The B) Option makes it sound all 1920's Al Capone. :) Just had to make that reference. But no, I'm right there with ya on the 55/57 thing.

I guess one can now say no matter where you are in Eastern Wisconsin, "All 41s lead to Chicago"...one way or another...regardless of the color of the sign :)

Maybe someone will come along and reconfigure all the numbering...and all we'd have to do is just swap signs for some (money saver!) to make the Interstate System make way better sense once again. Or, relegate the sign making to the prisoners like they do for license plates! gotta keep them busy anyway!

mgk920

Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I've also posited in several branches of AARoads the idea of someday further extending 'I-41' southward from the Tri-State Tollway (after replacing I-94 through the 'city') via IL 394 to ultimately replace US 41 and the Pennyrile Parkway to end at I-24 near Hopkinsville, KY.

:nod:

Mike

triplemultiplex

Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I am for having a gap in US 41 after the promotion.
"That's just like... your opinion, man."

merrycilantro

mgk and triple, i just wrote a post in the Fictional Board yesterday about how I think 41 could be truncated...I'll have to poke around and look but i'd be interested to see how the ideas jive.

Henry

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 02:02:31 PM
I just realized that before I could edit it. I'm thinking perhaps of US 51. Whole 'nother ball game. If they were to truncate 41, logically speaking, I-41 could go all the way to I-80 duplexed on I-294 or even supplanting if they so chose. Thus making it a truly Chicago-Northward interstate and providing number continuity throughout. Maybe even ditching I-94 and having that end in Milwaukee, but that would mean a whole bunch of re-signing and headaches and money. Not to mention delving into the Fictional Highways Realm.

I'm still pointing the finger of blame at IDOT here.
Well, there's still I-92 for the Chicago-Detroit route. I think that was actually proposed some time ago.
Go Cubs Go! Go Cubs Go! Hey Chicago, what do you say? The Cubs are gonna win today!

SEWIGuy

Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I've also posited in several branches of AARoads the idea of someday further extending 'I-41' southward from the Tri-State Tollway (after replacing I-94 through the 'city') via IL 394 to ultimately replace US 41 and the Pennyrile Parkway to end at I-24 near Hopkinsville, KY.

:nod:

Mike


Have you ever been on that stretch of US-41?  The northern part from Lake County down to I-74 is very lightly traveled.  The current four lane set up works just fine.

The southern section between I-74 and Evansville is busier but I still don't think is worthy of any sort of upgrade.

mgk920

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 28, 2014, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I've also posited in several branches of AARoads the idea of someday further extending 'I-41' southward from the Tri-State Tollway (after replacing I-94 through the 'city') via IL 394 to ultimately replace US 41 and the Pennyrile Parkway to end at I-24 near Hopkinsville, KY.

:nod:

Mike


Have you ever been on that stretch of US-41?  The northern part from Lake County down to I-74 is very lightly traveled.  The current four lane set up works just fine.

The southern section between I-74 and Evansville is busier but I still don't think is worthy of any sort of upgrade.

I'm thinking that a big part of its 'lightly-traveled' thing is that it is not a full freeway, complete with the STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP thing that such Indiana highways are famous for.  It would be a direct shot between the upper Great Lakes region and the USA's southeast without having to pass through any other big city metro areas between Chicagoland and Nashville.

Mike

merrycilantro

Perhaps at some point they will get new and improved talking heads in IDOT and those in charge of WisDOT will get together and figure it out...maybe 50 years in the future when the Interstate system is obsolete LOL.

Realistically speaking though I'd push for a Joliet to Escanaba Route, at least have the one number nice-ness from the Heartland up to the UP where the only Interstate they have is 75 way on the East.

SSOWorld

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 29, 2014, 03:41:05 PM
Perhaps at some point they will get new and improved talking heads in IDOT and those in charge of WisDOT will get together and figure it out...maybe 50 years in the future when the Interstate system is obsolete LOL.

Realistically speaking though I'd push for a Joliet to Escanaba Route, at least have the one number nice-ness from the Heartland up to the UP where the only Interstate they have is 75 way on the East.
They won't
Scott O.

Not all who wander are lost...
Ah, the open skies, wind at my back, warm sun on my... wait, where the hell am I?!
As a matter of fact, I do own the road.
Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

merrycilantro

does anybody know when Congress is supposed to meet to approve or disapprove the exception so the covers can be taken off of I-41?

SEWIGuy

Quote from: mgk920 on October 28, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 28, 2014, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I've also posited in several branches of AARoads the idea of someday further extending 'I-41' southward from the Tri-State Tollway (after replacing I-94 through the 'city') via IL 394 to ultimately replace US 41 and the Pennyrile Parkway to end at I-24 near Hopkinsville, KY.

:nod:

Mike


Have you ever been on that stretch of US-41?  The northern part from Lake County down to I-74 is very lightly traveled.  The current four lane set up works just fine.

The southern section between I-74 and Evansville is busier but I still don't think is worthy of any sort of upgrade.

I'm thinking that a big part of its 'lightly-traveled' thing is that it is not a full freeway, complete with the STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP thing that such Indiana highways are famous for.  It would be a direct shot between the upper Great Lakes region and the USA's southeast without having to pass through any other big city metro areas between Chicagoland and Nashville.


But again, that isn't how most people use interstates.  Interstates are used mostly for regional traffic between metropolitan areas.  And I don't think it is worth it to dump a bunch of money into US-41 so people can avoid Indianapolis and Louisville...which are the two metropolitan areas that you would bypass.

If traffic on I-65 is that much of a problem, add a lane.  A much cheaper alternative than throwing money into a corridor that is arguably overbuilt with a four lane road.

SEWIGuy

Quote from: merrycilantro on October 30, 2014, 09:23:13 AM
does anybody know when Congress is supposed to meet to approve or disapprove the exception so the covers can be taken off of I-41?


There will be a lame duck session after the elections.

english si

Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 30, 2014, 11:14:36 AMIf traffic on I-65 is that much of a problem, add a lane.  A much cheaper alternative than throwing money into a corridor that is arguably overbuilt with a four lane road.
Adding a lane usually costs the same as building a new four lane route due to traffic management.

Certainly France has a tendency to build a parallel route rather than widen, but recently (A79, A24) environmental issues get in the way and their economy sucks, so they've shelved many duplication plans.

With parts already freeway and most 4-lane, you'd not have that much construction to do on US41 in IN, but at the same time, you'd have some traffic management costs. Widening I-65 might work out cheaper, but probably not much cheaper.

merrycilantro

I had heard once that IDOT wanted to be the state with the most interstates, or maybe the most interstates in the region, or something like that...Anyway, you'd think then, that they wouldn't mind bringing I-41 down thru Chicagoland instead of just letting I-41 dip its toes in the waters of Illinois...although, if that statement were true, what's the difference between 0.9 miles and say 60 miles (i don't know the actual distance it would be if it would go to I-80), I-41 still goes into IL so it counts...Technicalities...

thefro

Quote from: mgk920 on October 28, 2014, 08:17:12 PM
Quote from: SEWIGuy on October 28, 2014, 02:10:25 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on October 23, 2014, 07:23:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 23, 2014, 01:39:52 PM
Quote from: merrycilantro on October 23, 2014, 12:51:59 PM
I *JUST* looked at Google Maps and figured out this could be a possiblity. Truncate US 41 at Hammond, IN, where it meets I-80.  PROBLEM SOLVED. BOOM.

I'm sure Menominee, Escanaba, Marquette, and Houghton will be ever-so-pleased, NOT!

And, BTW, US-41 ends just past Copper Harbor, Michigan.

I've also posited in several branches of AARoads the idea of someday further extending 'I-41' southward from the Tri-State Tollway (after replacing I-94 through the 'city') via IL 394 to ultimately replace US 41 and the Pennyrile Parkway to end at I-24 near Hopkinsville, KY.

:nod:

Mike


Have you ever been on that stretch of US-41?  The northern part from Lake County down to I-74 is very lightly traveled.  The current four lane set up works just fine.

The southern section between I-74 and Evansville is busier but I still don't think is worthy of any sort of upgrade.

I'm thinking that a big part of its 'lightly-traveled' thing is that it is not a full freeway, complete with the STOPSTOPSTOPSTOPSTOP thing that such Indiana highways are famous for.  It would be a direct shot between the upper Great Lakes region and the USA's southeast without having to pass through any other big city metro areas between Chicagoland and Nashville.

Mike

There's only a 30 mile difference in length between US 41 and the I-65 route.  I could see it making some sense for Indiana to upgrade US 41 to a full freeway between Evansville and Terre Haute, but it would serve no purpose between Terre Haute and Lake County.



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