Improving US 101 in NorCal (split from Least Favorite Fwy in NorCal thread)

Started by nexus73, May 01, 2012, 03:01:54 AM

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nexus73

Mod Note: This post was made in response to the "Least Favorite Freeway Stretch in Northern California" thread. The first page of this thread was originally located in that topic. --roadfro



Freeway 101 between Klamath and Orick gets one of my nods.  It was built high up inland so winter weather brings snow to it.  If the original 101 route had been modernized into a freeway, the route would have been a couple miles shorter and much lower in elevation.  The left lanes get bordered by a way-too-close concrete median barrier for a good part of the 12 mile stretch of freeway.  We who live in south coast Oregon and north coast California depend on 101 as our lifeline.  It was a waste of $120 million to build it the way CalTrans wanted IMO.

Expressway 101 in Prunedale is a real Blood Alley.  This section of 101 should have been modernized/upgraded 50 years ago.  The fact that CalTrans still does not have it dealt with shows a real inability in the Git 'er Done department.  Joe Stalin would have consigned those bureaucrats to the gulag a long time ago.

Those are just two of the many poor sections of 101 and there's plenty more to say on the subject but I don't feel like writing a book tonight...LOL!  Make me King Of America and I promise you there will be the greatest highway in the history of mankind built where the current 101 is.  It beats trying to toss money by the billions and trillions into the eternal cauldron that's the Middle East!  

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.


agentsteel53

Quote from: nexus73 on May 01, 2012, 03:01:54 AM
Freeway 101 between Klamath and Orick gets one of my nods.

is Newton B. Drury Scenic Drive the old 101 between those two endpoints? 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

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TheStranger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 01, 2012, 12:19:30 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on May 01, 2012, 03:01:54 AM
Freeway 101 between Klamath and Orick gets one of my nods.

is Newton B. Drury Scenic Drive the old 101 between those two endpoints? 

Yes: https://www.aaroads.com/california/us-101hp_ca.html

According to Wikipedia the designation of that road under its current name occurred in 1993, so that's when the freeway was probably built.  The bypass was created to avoid having to remove any old-growth redwoods along the original 101 alignment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton_B._Drury
Chris Sampang

agentsteel53

Quote from: TheStranger on May 01, 2012, 12:39:36 PMThe bypass was created to avoid having to remove any old-growth redwoods along the original 101 alignment:

thanks for the info!  the preservation of the redwoods does explain the bypass which Rick thinks to be a bit excessively long.

offhand, I do not remember it, as I have not driven it in several years.  I do know that I am a fan of the undivided freeway segments of 101 a bit further south (the bypass of Avenue of the Giants, the bypass of what is now CA-271, etc).  Rand McNally labels it a freeway, and CalTrans considers it to be a full freeway as well, but the median is simply a double yellow line with a rumble strip.  I believe it was built around 1962 but don't quote me on that.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

nexus73

Quote from: agentsteel53 on May 01, 2012, 01:22:05 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on May 01, 2012, 12:39:36 PMThe bypass was created to avoid having to remove any old-growth redwoods along the original 101 alignment:

thanks for the info!  the preservation of the redwoods does explain the bypass which Rick thinks to be a bit excessively long.

offhand, I do not remember it, as I have not driven it in several years.  I do know that I am a fan of the undivided freeway segments of 101 a bit further south (the bypass of Avenue of the Giants, the bypass of what is now CA-271, etc).  Rand McNally labels it a freeway, and CalTrans considers it to be a full freeway as well, but the median is simply a double yellow line with a rumble strip.  I believe it was built around 1962 but don't quote me on that.

The new section of freeway is sitting at too high of an altitude and it's design is not good for those who are driving in the left hand lane.  101 must be snowfree as possible so it can function as the backup to I-5 when the Siskiyous get snowed in.  I'd rather lose some redwoods than the entire route when the worst of winter comes.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

NE2

Quote from: nexus73 on May 01, 2012, 01:40:43 PM
the backup to I-5 when the Siskiyous get snowed in
Shouldn't this be US 97-OR 58 (which has better grades than even I-5)?
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

agentsteel53

Quote from: NE2 on May 01, 2012, 01:59:41 PM

Shouldn't this be US 97-OR 58 (which has better grades than even I-5)?

isn't the overall elevation a bit higher, though?  I-5 tops out at around 4300 feet, while US-97 I think goes to 5300

but yes, I agree that 97-58 is a better alternative to the Siskiyou Trail than 101, especially given that the east-west connections between 5 and 101 are all fairly obscure and winding between San Francisco and Portland.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

nexus73

Quote from: NE2 on May 01, 2012, 01:59:41 PM
Quote from: nexus73 on May 01, 2012, 01:40:43 PM
the backup to I-5 when the Siskiyous get snowed in
Shouldn't this be US 97-OR 58 (which has better grades than even I-5)?

The short and sweet answer is "NO!!!!".

Look at the map.  US 97 starts right in the heart of the mountains of Northern California.  The object is to avoid them when they're snowed in.  Now go up US 97 to 58. See how it crosses the Cascades, another mountain range?  Yikes!  Willamette Pass is a freakin' SKI RESORT AREA!  You want to go to Eugene or Salem?  You'll run into Santiam Pass (US 20).  PDX?  Once again it's going to take going through the snowbound Cascades on US 26.

To agentsteel: The routes that go E-W are obscure to you.  They are not to me.  I've driven every single one in Oregon and rural northern California along with every single inch of US 101.  I know what I am talking about!  What needs to be dealt with in order to maximize the value of this winter detour are the slide-prone sections of 101 in Curry County and getting those curves in Richardson Grove taken care of.  CalTrans has a plan in hand for Richardson Grove.  199 is also getting some work so the large trucks can move on that route.  However, the best E-W routes connecting 101 to I-5 are 42, 38 and to a lesser extent due to fewer passing lanes, 126.  That's how you bypass a snowed in Siskiyou Summit and keep the truck traffic flowing to the Oregon Coast, Willamette Valley, PDX and points north!

CenVlyDave and CentralCAroadgeek, I am fully aware of CalTrans' Prunedale Bypass project.  Until it's completed, that area is still a Blood Alley and the question still remains about how CalTrans let it slide right on by for half a century.

101 is the b*st*rd child of main north-south routes on the West Coast.  If it was in my power to do so, I'd get the Washington, Oregon and California governors behind the wheel of a huge RV or an 18-wheeler and make them drive the whole d*mn*d thing from Olympia to LA so they get the Full White Knuckle Treatment.  Then and maybe then, they'll grasp what US 101 needs to be a 21st century highway that can carry commercial traffic, tourists and locals safely and efficiently.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

CenVlyDave

Rick, I will agree the 101 is the red-headed stepchild of the west coast major North-South corridors.  My guess is that with the building of I-5 that the state started treating the 101 as a local route more or less, so improvements along it took a backseat in favor of construction and maintenance of the interstate.  I know this does not account for a full 50+ years of neglect, but still a possible theroy.

kkt

Quote from: CenVlyDave on May 02, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Rick, I will agree the 101 is the red-headed stepchild of the west coast major North-South corridors.  My guess is that with the building of I-5 that the state started treating the 101 as a local route more or less, so improvements along it took a backseat in favor of construction and maintenance of the interstate.  I know this does not account for a full 50+ years of neglect, but still a possible theroy.

Even before I-5 was built, 99 was acknowledged as the primary long-distance route along the west coast.

And 101 being a modest route is not just because of lack of funds.  Mountainous terrain that's prone to landslides, and the parks with old-growth redwoods also play a part.  A lot of 101's users are tourists who are driving to get to those parks.  We should not destroy the reason they are driving in order to make the drive easier.  There's also a lot of houses and businesses fronting on 101.  I'd rather see old 101 bypassed in more places.  I don't remember snow being that much of a problem, but if you say so maybe one or two of the east-west routes through the Coast Range should be improved.

nexus73

Quote from: kkt on May 02, 2012, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: CenVlyDave on May 02, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Rick, I will agree the 101 is the red-headed stepchild of the west coast major North-South corridors.  My guess is that with the building of I-5 that the state started treating the 101 as a local route more or less, so improvements along it took a backseat in favor of construction and maintenance of the interstate.  I know this does not account for a full 50+ years of neglect, but still a possible theroy.

Even before I-5 was built, 99 was acknowledged as the primary long-distance route along the west coast.

And 101 being a modest route is not just because of lack of funds.  Mountainous terrain that's prone to landslides, and the parks with old-growth redwoods also play a part.  A lot of 101's users are tourists who are driving to get to those parks.  We should not destroy the reason they are driving in order to make the drive easier.  There's also a lot of houses and businesses fronting on 101.  I'd rather see old 101 bypassed in more places.  I don't remember snow being that much of a problem, but if you say so maybe one or two of the east-west routes through the Coast Range should be improved.

We don't need to cut down all the redwood trees to get 101 modernized.  We don't even need to cut the majority of them.  Treehugging sentimentalism has been carried way too far and that stymies progress.  How many redwood trees do you have to see to be happy?

Snow is a BIG problem on I-5 in the winter.  Until the Redwood Freeway Bypass was built, 101 was rarely affected by snow.  That's due to the lower elevation and closeness to the Pacific Ocean's moderating influence.  

Slides are a problem in one area regularly, Curry County.  When the new 101 route between Brookings and Gold Beach was built, the serpentine soil became a major headache.  ODOT didn't figure out how to keep hillsides well drained, so they get waterlogged and slide out.  Today there are various slide abatement projects that have been completed and the result has been fewer slides.  

CalTrans took care of their worst slideprone area, Confusion Hill.  They built two new bridges and a new route that bypassed that mess.  

There's no insoluble problems on 101.  What is lacking is a view of seeing the route in a system perspective.  You don't drive a few miles of it when you're a tourist or a trucker, you drive long stretches.  Yet the repairs and modernizations are just little teensy bandaids in comparison to the length of the highway.  If we had approached the Interstate system the way we deal with 101, we'd be lucky to have half the Interstate mileage we have now.

The tourism industry is projected to be the largest one on the planet in the 21st century.  The Pacific Coast of the USA is one of this planet's great wonders.  I wonder why we don't have a highway to match?  As economically depressed as the coastal regions of Washington, Oregon and rural Northern California are, we sure don't need any more obstacles like substandard highways holding back a chance at recovering our share of the pie.  

Oh well, between the environmentalists, bureaucrats, politicians and funding, we're screwed, blued and tattooed.  That is a story which goes back many decades.  Read about the "State of Jefferson" (look it up on your own!) and you'll know what it's like out here to be ignored by Salem and Sacramento.  We even have "Jefferson Public Radio" in rural Northern California and Southern Oregon as a tribute to our region's interests being shunted aside so many times for so long.

You who are outsiders Just Don't Get It.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

myosh_tino

Quote from: nexus73 on May 02, 2012, 11:59:57 PM
We don't need to cut down all the redwood trees to get 101 modernized.  We don't even need to cut the majority of them.  Treehugging sentimentalism has been carried way too far and that stymies progress.  How many redwood trees do you have to see to be happy?

Snow is a BIG problem on I-5 in the winter.  Until the Redwood Freeway Bypass was built, 101 was rarely affected by snow.  That's due to the lower elevation and closeness to the Pacific Ocean's moderating influence.  

There's no insoluble problems on 101.  What is lacking is a view of seeing the route in a system perspective.  You don't drive a few miles of it when you're a tourist or a trucker, you drive long stretches.  Yet the repairs and modernizations are just little teensy bandaids in comparison to the length of the highway.  If we had approached the Interstate system the way we deal with 101, we'd be lucky to have half the Interstate mileage we have now.

The tourism industry is projected to be the largest one on the planet in the 21st century.  The Pacific Coast of the USA is one of this planet's great wonders.  I wonder why we don't have a highway to match?  As economically depressed as the coastal regions of Washington, Oregon and rural Northern California are, we sure don't need any more obstacles like substandard highways holding back a chance at recovering our share of the pie.  

Oh well, between the environmentalists, bureaucrats, politicians and funding, we're screwed, blued and tattooed.  That is a story which goes back many decades.  Read about the "State of Jefferson" (look it up on your own!) and you'll know what it's like out here to be ignored by Salem and Sacramento.  We even have "Jefferson Public Radio" in rural Northern California and Southern Oregon as a tribute to our region's interests being shunted aside so many times for so long.
Wait... what?  Aren't the great redwoods along the northern California coast one of the main attractions for the tourists along with the unspoiled natural scenery of the coast?  If so then why ruin it by "modernizing" US 101?  Are you proposing that Caltrans (and ODOT) widen and expand US 101 to a 4-lane freeway in the name of "progress"?  Wouldn't that spoil the natural beauty of the region?  Like kkt said, I-5 (and it's predecessor US 99) is the primary north-south long distance route for the region (California, Oregon and Washington).

US 101 as an alternative to I-5?  Not in California!  You mentioned in an earlier post responding to Agentsteel that OR-38, OR-42 and OR-126 are good routes to get to 101 from I-5 but what about in California? The only routes are CA-96, CA-299, CA-36 and CA-20.  CA-96 and 299 would definitely be snowed in and impassable if I-5 is closed due to snow.  Not sure about CA-36 and if you're going to use CA-20, it might be quicker to dive down into Vallejo and take CA-37 from I-80 to US 101.  Let's face it, there "might" be some alternates in Oregon but there are very few alternates in California once you are north of Sacramento.

Quote from: nexus73 on May 02, 2012, 11:59:57 PM
You who are outsiders Just Don't Get It.
Hmmm... I guess you right... ignore what I posted above because I'm an "outsider"  :angry:

Note to mods: Perhaps it might be a good idea to split the "101 North Coast Freeway" discussion into it's own thread.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

nexus73

Myosh, you missed a very important point.  The objective of 101 is to offer a bypass for traffic when snow closes up the Siskiyous.  The purely California E-W routes are thus irrelevant to this discussion.  Look at a map for gawdsakes!  199 is Ore/Cal and it's a crooked narrow highway in enough parts that STAA rigs can't get through, although CalTrans has a plan in hand for that.  Did you even know that???

Losing a small slice of redwoods for a better highway seems to be a real problem with you.  Treehugging back in the day would have meant no 101 freeway/expressway right through the redwoods south of Eureka and north of Leggett as there is today.  Maybe you have never been up here and thus you speak with no knowledge.  If you have driven that section of 101, then why do you exaggerate the cutting down of some trees?

Oh well, you being an outsider don't get it so yes, I am 100% right on that! .

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

myosh_tino

Quote from: nexus73 on May 03, 2012, 11:23:34 AM
Myosh, you missed a very important point.  The objective of 101 is to offer a bypass for traffic when snow closes up the Siskiyous.  The purely California E-W routes are thus irrelevant to this discussion.  Look at a map for gawdsakes!  199 is Ore/Cal and it's a crooked narrow highway in enough parts that STAA rigs can't get through, although CalTrans has a plan in hand for that.  Did you even know that???
That's all fine and well (and I'll admit, I totally forgot about US 199) but if the destination is Sacramento or Los Angeles, how will all that detoured traffic find it's way back to I-5 or are you suggesting that 101 (and 199?) be converted into a freeway so drivers do not need to get back to I-5?  Are you suggesting that detoured traffic stay on 101 until reaching the S.F. Bay Area before heading back east to I-5?  Your comment about using 199 is fine and dandy for southbound traffic but what about northbound traffic?  Northbound traffic is going to be "beyond the point of no return" once they get north of Sacramento.

Out of curiosity, do you know how many times I-5 is closed over the Siskyous in a calendar year?  I know that Caltrans will not close a freeway unless it's essentially a white-out (not sure about ODOT).  I-80 over the Sierra Nevadas is hardly ever closed to all traffic and even when it is, it's only for a few hours.  Chain controls may last for multiple days but the freeway is never closed for multiple days.  The only exception to this is if there's a landslide, mudslide or avalanche.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

kkt

Quote from: nexus73 on May 02, 2012, 11:59:57 PM
Quote from: kkt on May 02, 2012, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: CenVlyDave on May 02, 2012, 12:22:36 AM
Rick, I will agree the 101 is the red-headed stepchild of the west coast major North-South corridors.  My guess is that with the building of I-5 that the state started treating the 101 as a local route more or less, so improvements along it took a backseat in favor of construction and maintenance of the interstate.  I know this does not account for a full 50+ years of neglect, but still a possible theroy.

Even before I-5 was built, 99 was acknowledged as the primary long-distance route along the west coast.

And 101 being a modest route is not just because of lack of funds.  Mountainous terrain that's prone to landslides, and the parks with old-growth redwoods also play a part.  A lot of 101's users are tourists who are driving to get to those parks.  We should not destroy the reason they are driving in order to make the drive easier.  There's also a lot of houses and businesses fronting on 101.  I'd rather see old 101 bypassed in more places.  I don't remember snow being that much of a problem, but if you say so maybe one or two of the east-west routes through the Coast Range should be improved.

We don't need to cut down all the redwood trees to get 101 modernized.  We don't even need to cut the majority of them.  Treehugging sentimentalism has been carried way too far and that stymies progress.  How many redwood trees do you have to see to be happy?

Um... all the ones in the parks that are set up to protect them.

The current proposal for Richardson Grove is ridiculous.  It proposes cutting down a couple of dozen old growth redwoods, endangering the root systems of many more, and it won't even give an adequate route for big trucks!  It'll just be more to cut down in another few years.  Instead, it should be bypassed out of the park.  The highway through the park is never going to be adequate for large trucks and they shouldn't try.

Quote
Snow is a BIG problem on I-5 in the winter.  Until the Redwood Freeway Bypass was built, 101 was rarely affected by snow.  That's due to the lower elevation and closeness to the Pacific Ocean's moderating influence. 

I really don't think 101 was used as a bypass for 99/5 much even back in the day.  Much more likely to divert east, along 97 or 395 as needed.  The storms come off the Pacific; when there's snow on the Siskiyous there's probably pouring rain and landslides along 101.
Can't you continue to drive on old 101 if the bypass is snowy?

Quote
Slides are a problem in one area regularly, Curry County.  When the new 101 route between Brookings and Gold Beach was built, the serpentine soil became a major headache.  ODOT didn't figure out how to keep hillsides well drained, so they get waterlogged and slide out.  Today there are various slide abatement projects that have been completed and the result has been fewer slides. 

CalTrans took care of their worst slideprone area, Confusion Hill.  They built two new bridges and a new route that bypassed that mess. 

Good.  Bypassing the problem areas is a good response to the problem.  Diminishing the parks that people have come to see is not.

Quote
There's no insoluble problems on 101.  What is lacking is a view of seeing the route in a system perspective.  You don't drive a few miles of it when you're a tourist or a trucker, you drive long stretches.  Yet the repairs and modernizations are just little teensy bandaids in comparison to the length of the highway.  If we had approached the Interstate system the way we deal with 101, we'd be lucky to have half the Interstate mileage we have now.

The tourism industry is projected to be the largest one on the planet in the 21st century.  The Pacific Coast of the USA is one of this planet's great wonders.  I wonder why we don't have a highway to match?  As economically depressed as the coastal regions of Washington, Oregon and rural Northern California are, we sure don't need any more obstacles like substandard highways holding back a chance at recovering our share of the pie. 

Why do you think tourists come to the Pacific coast?  Not to see freeways.  I'm all for better roads, but the parks should be bypassed and most of old 101 should be bypassed.  If you're trying to grow industries, you'll want better access than a 2-lane highway can possibly provide.

Quote
Oh well, between the environmentalists, bureaucrats, politicians and funding, we're screwed, blued and tattooed.  That is a story which goes back many decades.  Read about the "State of Jefferson" (look it up on your own!) and you'll know what it's like out here to be ignored by Salem and Sacramento.  We even have "Jefferson Public Radio" in rural Northern California and Southern Oregon as a tribute to our region's interests being shunted aside so many times for so long.

You who are outsiders Just Don't Get It.

I've never lived year-around on the north Pacific coast, but I've visited there more times than I can count from homes in the Bay Area, Ben Lomond, and Seattle.  My parents took me when I was little, I've gone on my own as an adult, now I take my daughter there.  I don't need to look up Jefferson.  I know why I come there, and it's the trees and the beaches, not a freeway.  If a freeway can be built bypassing the parks, fine; if not, the parks are more important.  And they should be more important to you, too, if you want tourists to continue to visit.

kkt

Quote from: nexus73 on May 03, 2012, 11:23:34 AM
Myosh, you missed a very important point.  The objective of 101 is to offer a bypass for traffic when snow closes up the Siskiyous. 

101's objective is to provide access to and from the coastal communities and the parks and beaches, not to provide a bypass for I-5.  If I-5 is closed, which usually isn't for more than half a day at a time, people divert east to 97 or 395.  Or just wait for it to be cleared.  When there's a storm big enough to close I-5, 101 is going to be pretty rough going too.

nexus73

You folks who don't live here don't know what's going on.  You're as far removed from our "front lines" as the Allied generals on the Western Front were removed from the troops in their front lines in World War I.  Come up here and live 10 years, then you'll get it.  Obviously my explanations aren't getting through to you so it's time for the School Of Hard Knocks to open it's doors and you're invited to see what we have to deal with in this section of the USA.

We have had enough ignorance from Salem and Sacramento to last several lifetimes.  If roadgeeks have a very hard time accepting what our reality is, imagine the struggle we have had at the state level, let alone the Federal level, in terms of getting our one main lifeline (101) up to a modern standard.  There is no railroad line paralleling 101 in Humboldt, Del Norte, Curry and half of Coos County.  The airports with scheduled service at Arcata, Crescent City and North Bend are prone to weather closures.  The US Merchant Marine isn't carrying cargo to the ports of this region.  It's either have that one thin line of asphalt and concrete in good order or be left as isolated as Nome, which is something that isn't going to be sustainable for moderate to long stretches of time.  Being able to bypass the inland snows ensures the Willamette Valley and Puget Sound stay connected with California on the ground.  

As far as connecting 101 with I-5 during a snow closure, on the north end you preferably use Oregon's 38.  On the south end you use California 20 for trucks heading to the Central Valley and/or SoCal.  That avoids routing the trucks through urban areas and provides the best possible road quality situation at this time. Those are the best E-W routes for most trucks to use if bypassing a snowbound I-5 in Northern California/Southern Oregon.  Trucks using 101 as a bypass that are heading for the SF Bay Area can use 101 to finish their journey.

CalTrans had a freeway bypass planned for Richardson Grove.  It involved running along the very edge of the park, building tunnels and there would have been steep grades.  As funding for projects ran low, the Richardson Grove Bypass Project was canned.  The currently planned project is "just enough" to keep trucks from tracking across the center line on the worst curves.  The amount of redwoods lost is tiny compared to what would be left but the treehuggers want to put trees ahead of the needs of people, which doesn't add up very well in my neck of the woods and believe me, we live in the woods!

Like I say, come up here and live with us for 10 years.  You'll see what we go through in a most thorough fashion and maybe even grasp what it will take to make our area function at it's best from an economic and infrastructure standpoint.

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

Bickendan

Generally speaking, if I-5 through the Siskiyous is closed, ODOT's closed off the Gorge and the Cascade crossings... up to and including the three/four summits between Roseburg and Grants Pass.


ODOT bashing...: GO!

myosh_tino

Quote from: nexus73 on May 03, 2012, 10:14:30 PM
As far as connecting 101 with I-5 during a snow closure, on the north end you preferably use Oregon's 38.  On the south end you use California 20 for trucks heading to the Central Valley and/or SoCal.  That avoids routing the trucks through urban areas and provides the best possible road quality situation at this time. Those are the best E-W routes for most trucks to use if bypassing a snowbound I-5 in Northern California/Southern Oregon.  Trucks using 101 as a bypass that are heading for the SF Bay Area can use 101 to finish their journey.
CA-20?  That's your proposed route for detoured traffic to get back to I-5?  I've driven CA-20 from Upper Lake to I-5 and while it's a very scenic drive as you skirt around Clear Lake, there are a number of built-up areas and CA-20 is only a 2-lane conventional highway.  I (as others have) will ask again... how often is I-5 closed over the Siskyous and how long do the closures last?

Quote from: nexus73 on May 03, 2012, 10:14:30 PM
CalTrans had a freeway bypass planned for Richardson Grove.  It involved running along the very edge of the park, building tunnels and there would have been steep grades.  As funding for projects ran low, the Richardson Grove Bypass Project was canned.  The currently planned project is "just enough" to keep trucks from tracking across the center line on the worst curves.  The amount of redwoods lost is tiny compared to what would be left but the treehuggers want to put trees ahead of the needs of people, which doesn't add up very well in my neck of the woods and believe me, we live in the woods!
I got a look at the Caltrans feasibility study for the Richardson Grove project done in 2001.  In the report there were 3 alternate routings for a 4-lane freeway/expressway presented.  Alternate A would still pass through the state park but would have trouble getting approval from the FHWA and would cost around $100 million.  Alternate B would avoid the park but would have steep grades (8%), has geotechnical issues and would cost $450-600 million.  Alternate C would tunnel under the park at a cost of around $400 million.  Widening the existing road would probably not get approval from the FHWA and would definitely be rejected by the California Dept of Parks and Rec.  The study also projects AADT of 7,300 in 2021 (it was 5,100 in 2001).  By comparison, I-5's AADT ranges from 14,000 to 64,000 between the Oregon state line and Woodland.

The way I see it, Caltrans is between a rock and hard place.  Yes, 101 through this area needs improvement but all of the alternatives are way too expensive ($100-600 million) given the amount of traffic it handles.  Perhaps Caltrans should consider the tunnel option and toll the road to pay for it or maybe raise the sales tax like so many other counties do to pay for road improvements.

What I also found interesting is the feedback from the locals collected during the study.  A good 80% of the comments wanted nothing done (the "no-build" alternative).
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

nexus73

Myosh, the closure times on Siskiyou vary from year to year.  Sometimes there's a lot of snow and other times we get blessed with a milder winter.  The time element is irrelevant as any closure blocks the flow of trucks and passenger traffic on the West Coast's #1 traffic artery.

How many times can you survive a heart attack?  LOL!

The no-build NIMBY factor is high in rural NorCal.  CalTrans had put together an elaborate plan for a freeway in Eureka using tunnels.  You would think if the freeway was put out of the way that the locals would be satisfied.  They weren't.  The expressway section of 101 between Eureka and Arcata is a Safety Corridor and it's been a bloody fight to get any sort of support to upgrading it to a freeway.

Oh well, let the NIMBY's and CAVE's win and pretty soon we won't have to build anything anytime anyplace anywhere.  That'll save us lots of money! *sigh-LOL!*

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

NE2

Quote from: nexus73 on May 04, 2012, 12:30:27 PM
How many times can you survive a heart attack?  LOL!
More like how many times can you get a good night's sleep.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

kkt

Quote from: myosh_tino on May 04, 2012, 03:36:30 AM
I got a look at the Caltrans feasibility study for the Richardson Grove project done in 2001.  In the report there were 3 alternate routings for a 4-lane freeway/expressway presented.  Alternate A would still pass through the state park but would have trouble getting approval from the FHWA and would cost around $100 million.  Alternate B would avoid the park but would have steep grades (8%), has geotechnical issues and would cost $450-600 million.  Alternate C would tunnel under the park at a cost of around $400 million.  Widening the existing road would probably not get approval from the FHWA and would definitely be rejected by the California Dept of Parks and Rec.  The study also projects AADT of 7,300 in 2021 (it was 5,100 in 2001).  By comparison, I-5's AADT ranges from 14,000 to 64,000 between the Oregon state line and Woodland.

Yes, that study is online for anyone who wants to look at it:
http://www.dot.ca.gov/dist1/d1projects/richardson_grove/richardson_grove_feasibility_study_2001.pdf

As I see it, the main highway should not bisect the park at all.  What's now 101 should be a small access road for people going to the park.  Lots of people walk across the road, the narrow road helps keep speeds down, the park's quiet should be minimally disturbed.  So widening the current highway through the park should definitely be out, and alternative A should be out.  Alternative C could work, and I'm surprised they could do the tunnels for less than Alternative B.  Alternative B would cost more than Alternative C without being better in any respect -- road worse geometrically when it's done, massive amounts of dirt to dispose of, visually cutting the ridgeline.

Quote
The way I see it, Caltrans is between a rock and hard place.  Yes, 101 through this area needs improvement but all of the alternatives are way too expensive ($100-600 million) given the amount of traffic it handles.  Perhaps Caltrans should consider the tunnel option and toll the road to pay for it or maybe raise the sales tax like so many other counties do to pay for road improvements.

What I also found interesting is the feedback from the locals collected during the study.  A good 80% of the comments wanted nothing done (the "no-build" alternative).

I'm not really surprised.  Better roads bring development, and they don't want to turn Humbolt County into Marin North.  If they surveyed people from Eureka and Arcata as well, they might get different reactions, but it's still going to be a contentious issue.  Ideally the counties would put in land use controls to limit development rather than relying on inadequate roads to keep development out.

kkt

Quote from: nexus73 on May 04, 2012, 12:30:27 PM
Myosh, the closure times on Siskiyou vary from year to year.  Sometimes there's a lot of snow and other times we get blessed with a milder winter.  The time element is irrelevant as any closure blocks the flow of trucks and passenger traffic on the West Coast's #1 traffic artery.

Snow happens.  Donner Pass closes sometimes, Snoqualmie Pass closes sometimes, the routes through the Rockies close sometimes.  It's just part of life where there are mountains.  Most of the time you're better off waiting for the road to reopen than seeking a bypass.

myosh_tino

Quote from: nexus73 on May 04, 2012, 12:30:27 PM
Myosh, the closure times on Siskiyou vary from year to year.  Sometimes there's a lot of snow and other times we get blessed with a milder winter.  The time element is irrelevant as any closure blocks the flow of trucks and passenger traffic on the West Coast's #1 traffic artery.
Blocks it for HOW LONG?  A few hours?  A day?  A couple of days?  When I-80 get's shutdown over Donner Pass (a primary route for trucks heading to and from the Port of Oakland) what do the truckers do?  They wait until Caltrans can get the freeway reopened which typically takes a few hours to maybe a day max.  Are you going to suggest then that US 50 should be expanded to a freeway from Placerville to Carson City so I can be an adequate bypass for I-80?  Would you advocate plowing through the Sierras and placing a freeway on the shores of Lake Tahoe?

Quote
How many times can you survive a heart attack?  LOL!
Huh?  I don't see the relevance of this statement.

QuoteThe no-build NIMBY factor is high in rural NorCal.  CalTrans had put together an elaborate plan for a freeway in Eureka using tunnels.  You would think if the freeway was put out of the way that the locals would be satisfied.  They weren't.  The expressway section of 101 between Eureka and Arcata is a Safety Corridor and it's been a bloody fight to get any sort of support to upgrading it to a freeway.
Route 17 over the Santa Cruz Mountains and route 152 east of Gilroy are also Safety Corridors but you don't see a major rush to convert those to freeways.  Caltrans makes safety improvements (new center barriers, rumble strips, repaving, etc) but everyone knows the cost to upgrade these roads to freeways is simply too high.  There are plans to re-route 152 and make it a limited-access road but to do so they are talking about tolling the road to pay the construction costs.

Finally, this is my last comment on this matter as it has strayed WAY off topic.  I did put in a request to the mods to move this discussion into it's own topic.
Topic split performed. Feel free to continue discussing! --roadfro
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

nexus73

Myosh, one of my joke statements is that you can lead a horse to water but sometimes when you get him there, all you can do is drown the SOB.  Right now that's how we're both feeling about each other...LOL!

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.



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