Sorry about the poor quality of the image below. I took it on the spur of the moment, using an iPhone, on Saturday when we were stopped at a red light that has annoyed me for years. If I can get a better picture sometime this week I will edit this post. This light is at the westbound end of Eisenhower Avenue at Van Dorn Street in Alexandria, Virginia. There are four lanes on Eisenhower and we were in the leftmost one at this point, a left-turn-only lane onto southbound Van Dorn. There are two right-turn-only lanes and a left-or-straight lane; the light for our lane is out of the picture to the left.
The thing that annoys me at this intersection is the combination of the traffic lights and that white sign that's visible. It may not be apparent from this image, but the two right-turn lights use red arrows. Then there is that small white sign up there. It says "Right Turn on Red from Curb Lane Only." (Those of you who drive in Virginia no doubt know that VDOT is obsessed with this issue and usually posts signs for the second lane from the right using some variant on the phrase "No Turn on Red This Lane.")
The issue at this intersection is–why have a red arrow at all if you're allowing turns on red? I like the idea of the red arrow for the second lane, from which turns on red are prohibited, and I think it would be a useful tool at other intersections, especially because out-of-state drivers aren't always aware of Virginia's prohibition on turns on red from other than the curb lane and because at large intersections the small white sign is sometimes hard to read (especially at night). But at least across the river in DC the red arrow is normally interpreted to mean that you cannot go in the direction of the arrow until you have a green light–that is, the red arrow seems like it should be a prohibition on a specific movement along the lines of "even if there is a green light, you cannot turn in this direction right now." Doesn't allowing a turn on red defeat the purpose of a red arrow?
(Virginia's statutes allowing right turns and left turns on red do not specifically speak to red arrows–they just say that "vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal" may make a right or left on red after stopping unless a sign prohibits the maneuver.)
What is the rule elsewhere around the country? Off the top of my head I can't think of any other red arrows in Virginia, but they're pretty common in DC.
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Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
The issue at this intersection is–why have a red arrow at all if you're allowing turns on red?
In general, because if you put a red ball on top, you have no way to give straight traffic a green but right-turning traffic a red (for example, if there's heavy pedestrian traffic or a parallel rail line).
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
Doesn't allowing a turn on red defeat the purpose of a red arrow?
No, since a red arrow logically means that traffic turning that way has a red light, and that the normal rules for red lights apply to that movement. Unfortunately the MUTCD seems to recommend the opposite - that a red arrow has its own set of rules.
See also http://knowledge.fhwa.dot.gov/cops/opspublic.nsf/discussionDisplay?Open&id=1BBE8C2ED2678129852570BC006DB229&Group=Signals&tab=DISCUSSION
Quote from: NE2 on May 09, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
In general, because if you put a red ball on top, you have no way to give straight traffic a green but right-turning traffic a red (for example, if there's heavy pedestrian traffic or a parallel rail line).
That's why they use the light-up "No Right Turn" signs (arrow with a slash) here in Florida, or occasionally a light-up "No Turn On Red" sign although those are not as common.
Of course we live in one of the few states that allows right turns on red arrows.
I don't know if they do this on purpose, but it seems like red arrows often are a good indicator of lane use as well.
Quote from: NE2 on May 09, 2011, 09:17:53 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
The issue at this intersection is–why have a red arrow at all if you're allowing turns on red?
In general, because if you put a red ball on top, you have no way to give straight traffic a green but right-turning traffic a red (for example, if there's heavy pedestrian traffic or a parallel rail line).
....
I suppose that's a common use of the red arrows in DC. I can think of one spot in particular (18th & Constitution NW) where the left lane becomes left-turn-only (though 95% of the drivers ignore it and go straight) and the next lane over is left-or-straight, with a red arrow prohibiting the left turn at times when the straight-thru traffic has a green ball. Needless to say, you put yourself in grave danger if you stop in the left-or-straight lane because you want to go left. Google Street View here: http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=38.892135,-77.04212&spn=0.012376,0.033023&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.892127,-77.041963&panoid=uGRC9WUioL-DIyxUUxu1Yw&cbp=12,119.05,,0,12.22
The particular intersection referred to in my post above doesn't fall within any of those categories, though–all four lanes get the green at the same time. The two right-turn lanes do sometimes get a green arrow when the other two lanes have a red (this because of the green-arrow phase for traffic on the other street making a left onto eastbound Eisenhower, i.e. in the picture above traffic coming from our right and making a left to head back to where we were coming from). This is why I find the use of the red arrow very puzzling there.
Quote from: realjd on May 09, 2011, 09:48:32 AM
I don't know if they do this on purpose, but it seems like red arrows often are a good indicator of lane use as well.
Yes, good point. If you see a red arrow over a lane as you're approaching the intersection, that's a good indication that the lane will be right turn only, and is more visible than a right lane must turn right sign.
By the way, here in Florida, in my experience they will generally allow turning right from all right turn lanes, not just the rightmost.
In Delaware, red arrows mean no turn on red in all cases. I thought that that was the universal rule when it came to those and was surprised to find out that in Florida, red arrows do not prohibit turning while red, and that if they do, accompanying signs will be posted.
Quote from: Alex on May 09, 2011, 12:52:16 PM
In Delaware, red arrows mean no turn on red in all cases. I thought that that was the universal rule when it came to those and was surprised to find out that in Florida, red arrows do not prohibit turning while red, and that if they do, accompanying signs will be posted.
It's the same in Illinois. They do not prohibit turning on red. Instead, a sign must be posted stating "NO TURN ON RED", "LEFT/RIGHT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY", or "RIGHT TURN ON RED FROM RIGHT LANE ONLY".
In California, a red arrow mean no turn on red period. Signs may be posted along with the red arrows but are not required.
During a recent trip to Portland, Oregon, I quickly found out that Oregon's laws regarding red right-turn arrows is different than California's. I encountered a red right arrow so I waited for it to turn green when I got honked at by the person behind me. I should have known I was doing something wrong since the cars in the lane next to me (it was a double right turn lane) were making the turn against the red arrow.
In Quebec, there is some red arrows like this one in Montreal at the exit of 1st avenue on A-20 in Lachine sector
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.444468,-73.663684&spn=0.005088,0.013733&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.444573,-73.663613&panoid=I12k6fuKepi2Q0SRfTXS8A&cbp=12,293.28,,0,0
However in Sherbrooke, they use a regular red light instead of a red arrow like this one at the corner of King Street and Belvedere Street http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.398736,-71.896806&spn=0.00461,0.027466&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.398731,-71.896808&panoid=3PRhlCavg5MZZ96xI72jnQ&cbp=11,87.42,,0,0.7
In Colorado RTORA (right turn on red arrow) is prohibited. Normally there is a supplemental sign but I know of an instance in Sterling where there isn't. The road is leaving a shopping center and there are 3 lights; two left arrow RYG and one right arrow RYG. This is as close as Streetview gets to it: http://goo.gl/maps/IMSN
That would appear to be a great safety enhancement money maker when you consider that there are no supplemental signs. :pan:
Most Flashing Yellow Arrow signals use a Red Arrow.
Texas has a hit & miss attitude to Red Arrows: some signals have them, many don't.
Paris, TX uses a Double Red Ball for their left turn signals
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As does Lumberton
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Quote from: myosh_tino on May 09, 2011, 04:15:32 PM
In California, a red arrow mean no turn on red period. Signs may be posted along with the red arrows but are not required.
During a recent trip to Portland, Oregon, I quickly found out that Oregon's laws regarding red right-turn arrows is different than California's. I encountered a red right arrow so I waited for it to turn green when I got honked at by the person behind me. I should have known I was doing something wrong since the cars in the lane next to me (it was a double right turn lane) were making the turn against the red arrow.
I suppose when you really get down to it, not making the turn if you have any doubt is the prudent way to proceed, especially if there's a cop around and you're concerned that he might ticket you if you turn and it's not allowed.
In other words, you're never required to turn on red if you don't want to do so, even if it bugs the crap out of the people waiting on line behind you. I can think of times when I haven't turned on red simply because I felt I couldn't see well enough to be able to determine whether the road was clear.
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 09, 2011, 04:29:06 PM
In Quebec, there is some red arrows like this one in Montreal at the exit of 1st avenue on A-20 in Lachine sector
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.444468,-73.663684&spn=0.005088,0.013733&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.444573,-73.663613&panoid=I12k6fuKepi2Q0SRfTXS8A&cbp=12,293.28,,0,0
....
I panned around to see the rest of the intersection. It looks like that one may be similar to the DC example in my post from 10:11 this morning–I clicked back to where the red car is and then panned back to look at the lights and it appears that the light assembly with the red arrow is exclusively for left turns and that the other assembly on the far side of that street is for straight-ahead and right-turn traffic. Hard to tell from Street View whether they ever have a cycle where the red arrow is on but the other lanes still have a green. (The use of the red arrow anywhere in Montreal is potentially interesting in view of it being illegal to make a right on red anywhere on the Island of Montreal.)
One note for 1995hoo: given the location, this signal installation would be under the city of Alexandria's purview, instead of VDOT's. I only know of two VDOT left red arrow installations statewide (and no red right arrows)...one in Spotsylvania, the other in Fairfax Co (US 1 at Beacon Hill). If one sees a red arrow in Virginia (in either direction), it's most likely because one is in one of the Independent Cities, who are responsible for their own non-Interstate maintenance instead of VDOT. VDOT's standard has long been circular reds for turn signals.
South Carolina has red arrows on US 17 in the Myrtle Beach area and took the "Left Turn Signal" signs off at intersections.
Connecticut avoids this issue by just not using red arrows, ever. :rolleyes:
Red arrows are pretty much common here in Kentucky. It's rare to have red ball yellow arrow and green arrow since Kentucky pretty much follow national MUTCD. Also, we do have red right arrow here in Lexington but it's rare too.
Isn't using red arrows for left turn signals now a MUTCD requirement? I know Indiana finally legislated red arrows in preparation of the switch.
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2011, 05:54:29 PM
I suppose when you really get down to it, not making the turn if you have any doubt is the prudent way to proceed, especially if there's a cop around and you're concerned that he might ticket you if you turn and it's not allowed.
In other words, you're never required to turn on red if you don't want to do so, even if it bugs the crap out of the people waiting on line behind you. I can think of times when I haven't turned on red simply because I felt I couldn't see well enough to be able to determine whether the road was clear.
Something I've wondered: can you wait here for eight hours until the light turns green? http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=35.218759,-80.835364&spn=0.007284,0.020599&t=k&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.218616,-80.835317&panoid=XtfTmHxSq9fhdRrxL_1Luw&cbp=12,280.33,,1,-6.94
So why is there that time restriction is the first place?
Regarding the right turn on red arrow after stop, is there some reason a flashing red arrow cannot or is not used?
Regarding use of red arrows, they are becoming more common in Missouri as MoDOT is now using them with the flashing yellow arrow installations. Previously they were used sporadically on other roads.
Red arrows seem to be common in Illinois excluding District 8 of IDOT, which uses a louvered red ball that is only visible from the left turn lane.
There is one instance in Pittsburgh at the intersection of Fort Duquesne Boulevard and Stanwix Street, but Philadelphia is the only place in Pennsylvania that uses red arrows extensively in their left turn signals. In both cities, the use of "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs in conjunction with the arrows is standard procedure.
Philadelphia provided the template for what has become the standard signal installation (mast arms, 12" yellow signal heads, and black backplates) state-wide, but for some reason PennDOT left out the red arrows. Then again they followed the beat of their own MUTCD until recently.
Quote from: Zmapper on May 09, 2011, 08:59:37 PM
So why is there that time restriction is the first place?
Because it's a parking exit that doesn't need its own phase except during afternoon rush hour.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 09, 2011, 09:08:03 PM
Regarding use of red arrows, they are becoming more common in Missouri as MoDOT is now using them with the flashing yellow arrow installations. Previously they were used sporadically on other roads.
MoDOT has done strange things with arrows before. In Springfield there are tons of intersections (mainly on BL 44) that feature green up arrows instead of balls.
Quote from: Scott5114 on May 09, 2011, 09:23:54 PM
MoDOT has done strange things with arrows before. In Springfield there are tons of intersections (mainly on BL 44) that feature green up arrows instead of balls.
Or at the Diverging Diamonds:
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^ The up arrows were (are?) the MoDOT standard where left turns from the opposite direction were protected only or nonexistent.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 09, 2011, 10:18:13 PM
^ The up arrows were (are?) the MoDOT standard where left turns from the opposite direction were protected only or nonexistent.
Seems like Bus 65 in Springfield has (or used to have) a bunch of 4 lens signals: R-Y-G(UP)-G (Right)
Are green up arrows not common? I seem to find them everywhere in the northeast...
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I asked GDOT about turning right against a red arrow. In short, as long as the way is clear it's okay, unless there's a sign prohibiting a turn against a red arrow. There should be some kind of standard nationwide, though, due to differing laws. I think of the red arrow of more directing you in the direction that you must turn, not that the turn is prohibited. But I do know, if I drive in California, a red turn arrow means no turns are allowed. :-)
Be well,
Bryant
Nevada law makes no distinction between a circular red and a red arrow. Thus, a right turn on red arrow is technically permitted.
However, of all the red right arrow installations in the Las Vegas and Reno areas, I can't think of a single time where red right arrows are installed without "no turn on red" signs installed as well (generally, red arrows are installed at locations with two or more right turn only lanes where the volume won't benefit much from RTOR anyway). Thus, the 'de facto' rule in Nevada is that you can't turn right on a red arrow.
Quote from: PennDOTFan on May 09, 2011, 10:46:22 PM
Are green up arrows not common? I seem to find them everywhere in the northeast...
I've only ever seen them in the St Louis area.
EDIT: I completely missed the previous page's discussion on Missouri using them. But yes, I've only ever really seen them in St. Louis.
When I was in High School, I went on tour with the HS Church Choir. One of our stops was in St Louis and as the bus took us through town, the Choir Director commented on how fortunate we were to get so many green signals without having to stop. Of course, I don't think he realized that V (down arrows) were not traffic signals :spin:
Quote from: froggie on May 09, 2011, 06:45:16 PM
One note for 1995hoo: given the location, this signal installation would be under the city of Alexandria's purview, instead of VDOT's. I only know of two VDOT left red arrow installations statewide (and no red right arrows)...one in Spotsylvania, the other in Fairfax Co (US 1 at Beacon Hill). If one sees a red arrow in Virginia (in either direction), it's most likely because one is in one of the Independent Cities, who are responsible for their own non-Interstate maintenance instead of VDOT. VDOT's standard has long been circular reds for turn signals.
Hmm, interesting point. Obviously I'm well aware that intersection is in the city (funny thing, Van Dorn doesn't have one of the usual signs telling you when you've entered the city limits), but I never really considered the point about the independent cities (plus Arlington and Henrico counties) maintaining their own roads and signals. I kind of assumed–and I know it may not necessarily be a valid assumption–that to the extent Virginia law, or some standard VDOT practice, applies, they'd demand that the independent cities follow those as well. "Standard VDOT practice" here would refer to things like prohibiting turns on red from other than the curb lane, as the statute allowing for rights and lefts on red doesn't impose that sort of restriction.
But I suppose two things cut against my assumption–(1) the independent cities have done their own thing from time to time in the past, such as Alexandria' adoption of the flashing yellow left-turn arrows at several lights on Duke Street near Cameron Station and Foxchase long before they were used elsewhere in Virginia; (2) VDOT itself doesn't necessarily show a lot of consistency in some of their signage for the turns on red (I can think of at least five different styles of signs to that effect just within two miles of my house, all with different wording, different sign shapes, different positioning, etc.).
Off the top of my head I can't picture the red arrow at Beacon Hill. I may have to swing past there this afternoon or later this week. I used to go through that area fairly often on my morning commute downtown as a way of bypassing the springtime daily backup on Van Dorn Street, but since I no longer work downtown I no longer go that way.
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 09, 2011, 09:08:03 PM
Red arrows seem to be common in Illinois excluding District 8 of IDOT, which uses a louvered red ball that is only visible from the left turn lane.
Gotta love IDOT. Each district seems to go its own way with regards to signals and signage.
Tennessee also makes no distinction between red balls and red arrows for right turn on red.
http://www.tntrafficsafety.org/htm/Laws/ped110.htm
______________
There's also a bill in the state legislature to remove the stop provision on ROTR to make it a YIELD. (This is what most Tennesseans do anyway.)
Bill Text: http://www.capitol.tn.gov/Bills/107/Bill/SB0425.pdf
Status: http://e-lobbyist.com/gaits/TN/SB0425
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 09, 2011, 08:46:59 AM
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Resurrecting this thread from May because I noticed yesterday that the light shown above has been changed: The curb lane now uses a red ball indicator while the second lane retains its red arrow. The sign about right on red being allowed only from the curb lane remains. I was rather startled to see the change, but (as is clear from my original comments) I think it was logical.
Here's a GMSV view of an upward-right pointing red arrow. This is a special kind of intersection, where a two-way frontage road becomes one-way with no room to spare.
http://goo.gl/maps/nOFNF (http://goo.gl/maps/nOFNF)
I have noticed two instances (one in Philly and one in Bel Air, MD) where red arrows are used for two right turn lanes at an intersection but both have signs indicating the curb lane can turn on red after stopping, while the inside turn lane cannot. I was also under the assumption that a red arrow, as quoted in the PA driver's manual, means you cannot turn, but I guess a sign can override it to the affirmative (as "No Turn on Red" overrides to the negative).
This has always been one of my pet peeves with the MUTCD and the UVC. In one case (red ball), you are allowed to make a right turn on red unless a sign is posted. In the other case (red arrow), you can't make the same right turn on red UNLESS a sign is posted.
Unless, of course, you live in a state (like Massachusetts) where the law permits RTOR on any "red indication" (arrow or ball) uless a sign is posted.
So much for uniformity in traffic control.
I didn't even know that no right on red arrow was the norm. I would naturally treat it the same as a red ball.
Quote from: kphoger on August 08, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
I didn't even know that no right on red arrow was the norm. I would naturally treat it the same as a red ball.
Conversely, in Massachusetts I was taught that red arrow specifically means no turn on red which is opposite what roadman said. I wonder if they were going off of something from out of state when they said that?
Delaware is known for using side-by-side ball and arrow reds, with the arrow lighted meaning No Turn On Red, usually with a sign posted to the effect of "no turn on red arrow". Usually that happens when there is a pedestrian phase or protected turn that they don't want turns on red interfering with.
under California law, red ball means that right on red is allowed, unless signed otherwise - and red right arrow means "no right turn allowed at this time".
Virginia just places a "no turn on red" sign next to the signal where it's prohibited.
Quote from: PurdueBill on August 08, 2012, 05:37:02 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 08, 2012, 04:49:27 PM
I didn't even know that no right on red arrow was the norm. I would naturally treat it the same as a red ball.
Conversely, in Massachusetts I was taught that red arrow specifically means no turn on red which is opposite what roadman said. I wonder if they were going off of something from out of state when they said that?
Delaware is known for using side-by-side ball and arrow reds, with the arrow lighted meaning No Turn On Red, usually with a sign posted to the effect of "no turn on red arrow". Usually that happens when there is a pedestrian phase or protected turn that they don't want turns on red interfering with.
While the Massachusetts Driver's Manual states that you shall not turn right on a steady red arrow, current state law permits RTOR at any red indication (ball or arrow) unless a sign indicating otherwise is posted.
From the Massachusetts General Laws - Chapter 89, Section 8:
At any intersection on ways, as defined in section one of chapter ninety, in which vehicular traffic is facing a steady red indication in a traffic control signal, the driver of a vehicle which is stopped as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk or the near side of the intersections or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersection in obedience to such red or stop signal, may make either (1) a right turn or (2) if on a one-way street may make a left turn to another one-way street, but shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection, except that a city or town, subject to section two of chapter eighty-five, by rules, orders, ordinances, or by-laws, and the department of highways on state highways or on ways at their intersections with a state highway, may prohibit any such turns against a red or stop signal at any such intersection, and such prohibition shall be effective when a sign is erected at such intersection giving notice thereof. MassHighway (now MassDOT) attempted to correct this discrepancy in 2003 in their MUTCD amendments by requiring that all new right red arrow installations also include a "No Turn On Red" sign. For some reason, this language has since been omitted from the 2009 MUTCD amendments - although the RTOR language in the state law remains the same.
As evidenced by other comments on this thread, it remains my opinion that the MUTCD and UVC "red ball-OK without sign, but red arrow - not OK without sign" conflicting rules do nothing but add confusion for drivers and unnecessarily slow down traffic flow.
For the record, I've lived in Massachusetts all my life, and was aware of this discrepancy between the Driver's Manual and state law even when I first got my learner's permit in 1977. And, no, I'm not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV).
Slightly related, but the people that irk me sometimes are the people that assume that a simple "Right Turn Signal" signal, with just a red ball (but a green arrow at times), also denotes a "No Turn On Red" situation. Which I've encountered a good bit over the years.
In my experience, a right-red-arrow is pretty rare in PA. In fact, Left-Red-Arrows still seem very uncommon here as well. (Though I can't vouch for the eastern half of the state)
I've encountered some people, usually elderly, who simply WILL NOT turn right on red no matter if you blow the horn. I know nobody is ever required to turn right on red, but it sure is annoying when that happens and there's no real reason for it. (If visibility around the corner is bad or traffic is heavy, then sure, you err on the side of safety.)
I'm willing to give foreigners more of a pass on this issue because not all countries allow turns on red. Several European friends have said to me that they are reluctant to turn on red when they visit the USA because it's illegal in their countries and it's just very hard for them to overcome that. I guess I can understand that sort of thing–especially the Brits who are already adjusting to driving on the wrong side of the road when they come here.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 09, 2012, 05:59:39 PM
I've encountered some people, usually elderly, who simply WILL NOT turn right on red no matter if you blow the horn. I know nobody is ever required to turn right on red, but it sure is annoying when that happens and there's no real reason for it. (If visibility around the corner is bad or traffic is heavy, then sure, you err on the side of safety.)
I'm willing to give foreigners more of a pass on this issue because not all countries allow turns on red. Several European friends have said to me that they are reluctant to turn on red when they visit the USA because it's illegal in their countries and it's just very hard for them to overcome that. I guess I can understand that sort of thingespecially the Brits who are already adjusting to driving on the wrong side of the road when they come here.
You mean you blow your horn at people who don't turn right on red? Wow, that would totally piss me off if I were the one not turning. It's a RED LIGHT!
Yeah, but you have to agree that blocking the way for others when there is little reason for you to do so is a dick move.
One might even call it... cock blocking.
(https://encrypted-tbn1.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRD2e9yQA4YZ6K4mdRvc_6tGhDCHtpI4omMVxHHFzi5cUY1TcNE)
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2012, 06:52:23 PM
Yeah, but you have to agree that blocking the way for others when there is little reason for you to do so is a dick move.
I'm not 'blocking the way for others' if I'm waiting for a light to turn green. I choose my routes through the city partly based on whether I think I'll be able to turn right on red or not, but I would never honk my horn at someone not turning right on red in front of me.
Well, if you are legally able to turn there on red, what aspect the light is displaying only relevant to whether you stop before you turn and whether you have other traffic to yield to. If you are not turning when the way is clear you are in fact blocking the way for others–if you were not there, others would certainly be turning, and you are the only element preventing them from doing so. This seems fairly clear to me.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 08, 2012, 05:39:51 PM
under California law, red ball means that right on red is allowed, unless signed otherwise - and red right arrow means "no right turn allowed at this time".
Perhaps because I live in California, this seems intuitively correct. A right red arrow should function similarly to a left red arrow, as an additional restriction. Otherwise, what's the point? Just use a red ball or a flashing yellow arrow.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2012, 07:55:54 PM
Well, if you are legally able to turn there on red, what aspect the light is displaying only relevant to whether you stop before you turn and whether you have other traffic to yield to. If you are not turning when the way is clear you are in fact blocking the way for others–if you were not there, others would certainly be turning, and you are the only element preventing them from doing so. This seems fairly clear to me.
You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn". And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".
I'm not saying it's OK to sit there blasting the horn at the guy who doesn't turn right on red, and I'm also not saying you should beep the horn if you cannot see for certain that the other road is clear (meaning if, say, a truck or big SUV is blocking your view and your only basis for thinking it's clear is that you haven't seen a car go past, then you shouldn't honk). Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate. But as "kphoger" says, and as I acknowledged in my original comment, you're never required to turn on red, so anything more than a quick beep or two is overdoing it.
in California we also have a flashing red right arrow, which means "right turn permitted after stop". this is used when the mainline is green, and the interchange has visibility issues preventing one from evaluating, without a stop, the behavior of oncoming traffic making an unprotected left.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2012, 11:44:11 PM
You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn". And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".
this is the equivalent of sitting at an unsignalized entrance to a major road - either a stop sign, or no signage*. if you can make the right turn to get onto a main road, and you do not do so, you are indeed blocking the traffic behind you.
*usually this is a private driveway, but sometimes a public street won't have a STOP sign at the end. the street I live on indeed doesn't.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2012, 11:44:11 PM
You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn". And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".
this is the equivalent of sitting at an unsignalized entrance to a major road - either a stop sign, or no signage*. if you can make the right turn to get onto a main road, and you do not do so, you are indeed blocking the traffic behind you.
*usually this is a private driveway, but sometimes a public street won't have a STOP sign at the end. the street I live on indeed doesn't.
No. Traffic is required by law to not sit at a STOP sign indefinitely. Which makes sense, as STOP signs never turn green. Stoplights are governed by a different set of laws.
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 10, 2012, 09:19:45 AM
Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate
Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed. Yeah, that still doesn't help. If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed. Yeah, that still doesn't help. If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).
I once had someone start honking at me about 4 seconds before the light turned green. (it was a protected left, not a right turn situation.) as it was just him and me, I waited until the light went from green to yellow (all the while, he was honking like a maniac), and then floored it, trapping him in another cycle of red.
alas, he floored it right behind me and blatantly ran the red. damn.
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2012, 01:40:28 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed. Yeah, that still doesn't help. If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).
I once had someone start honking at me about 4 seconds before the light turned green. (it was a protected left, not a right turn situation.) as it was just him and me, I waited until the light went from green to yellow (all the while, he was honking like a maniac), and then floored it, trapping him in another cycle of red.
alas, he floored it right behind me and blatantly ran the red. damn.
Yeah, that never quite works out as nicely as you hope, does it? In Chicago, that would NEVER work, since it's normal practice for three people to run the red after the arrow disappears.
EDIT: Chicago suburbs, since the city itself is amazingly devoid of left turn arrows.
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2012, 01:35:25 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 10, 2012, 09:19:45 AM
Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate
Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed. Yeah, that still doesn't help. If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).
It sounds to me as though you're missing my point. You seem to be interpreting my comment to mean that I'd sit there and blast the horn at someone who's not going right on red. I wouldn't. I'd blast the horn at someone who doesn't go on green if he fails to respond to a quieter "beep-beep" type thing or who stops at a YIELD sign when nobody's coming on the other road, but that's different. The issue with the right on red is that probably 99% of drivers will ordinarily make a right on red; around here, many of them will do it even when it's not safe to do so. So if you're at a red light waiting to turn right and the guy in front of you isn't going, AND you can see that the other road is clear, I think most people would not assume–as you seem to be suggesting they should do–that the guy in front has decided to avail himself of his option to decline to go right on red, and I think most people are quite rational in not making that assumption. More often than not the times I've been behind someone who isn't going right on red it's been a situation where there was a lot of traffic coming through for a time and then the road suddenly cleared, the guy in front of me doesn't go so I give a quick "beep-beep" on the horn (two short honks that aren't loud or belligerent), and almost always the driver kind of acts startled and then goes, often with a sheepish kind of a wave. It's readily apparent in those situations that the driver's attention had probably wandered while watching all that traffic go by–whether it wandered to a mobile phone, the radio, playing with a sat-nav, tending to a crying baby, whatever, who knows.
But there have been a few times over the years (thankfully very few) when I've been behind people who simply won't go right on red. Most of them have been elderly people. When a quick "beep-beep" on the horn doesn't work, then I think it's pretty obvious you're going to have to wait and so I don't honk further. I've seen plenty of other people go nuts blasting the horn, but I think that's a waste of time because (a) turning on red is not required and (b) as you suggest, it may just piss the guy off and make him obstinate.
The other thing that factors into the equation is that in Virginia it's almost always the case that right turns on red are allowed from the curb lane only and there is almost always a sign prohibiting turns on red from any other lane. So you can't just move into the other right turn lane, if there is one, to get around the inattentive driver.
(The only time I've blown my horn at someone in a LEFT on red situation was at an intersection in Fairfax City, Virginia, where there was a sign that said "Left Turn on Red Permitted After Stop." If there is no sign, then I assume the person is ignorant of the law allowing it and therefore won't go.)
BTW, all of the above assumes that it's a right-turn-only lane. If it's an option lane for right or straight, then you never honk because the guy might be going straight (given how many people think turn signals are optional). I try not to be in the right lane in that situation if I'm going straight so that I don't block right-turners, but most drivers don't think that way.
Also, to return to the original topic, I wouldn't blame anyone for not turning right on a red arrow, because I think it's extremely reasonable to assume that a red arrow prohibits movement in the direction of the arrow when it's illuminated.
Quote from: kphoger on August 10, 2012, 01:53:44 PM
Yeah, that never quite works out as nicely as you hope, does it? In Chicago, that would NEVER work, since it's normal practice for three people to run the red after the arrow disappears.
EDIT: Chicago suburbs, since the city itself is amazingly devoid of left turn arrows.
NYC as well... when the light turns red, traffic queued up continues to go through until it is all cleared out.
this was a relatively quiet San Diego office park area. not the sort of place you envision these sorts of idiot-maniac types.
Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2012, 11:44:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 09, 2012, 07:55:54 PM
Well, if you are legally able to turn there on red, what aspect the light is displaying only relevant to whether you stop before you turn and whether you have other traffic to yield to. If you are not turning when the way is clear you are in fact blocking the way for others–if you were not there, others would certainly be turning, and you are the only element preventing them from doing so. This seems fairly clear to me.
You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn". And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".
I'm not arguing the legal facts. Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No. But if they do sit there instead of going when they are able, they are needlessly holding up the traffic behind them and impeding others' progress without cause. They are not considering the other drivers' need to get somewhere and instead only focusing on their own desire to sit at the light for whatever reason.
This makes them an asshole.(Keep in mind I am considering ideal conditions here. If someone is unwilling to risk the RTOR because of limited sight distance due to geometry or weather conditions that's completely acceptable.)
Someone, I think it was Jake, mentioned once that one hallmark of a good driver is that the traffic patterns would stay utterly the same if they were not there at all. I think this is one example of the sort of situation that truism was describing.
Is it legal to sit here for eight hours?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.tinypic.com%2Fnogg05.jpg&hash=dbd5c6b96a1bb80877268cef8d9ae385ab105a35) (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35.218662,-80.835259&spn=0.001955,0.004128&gl=us&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.218616,-80.835317&panoid=XtfTmHxSq9fhdRrxL_1Luw&cbp=12,279.04,,1,-8.44)
Quote from: 1995hoo on August 09, 2012, 05:59:39 PM
I'm willing to give foreigners more of a pass on this issue because not all countries allow turns on red. Several European friends have said to me that they are reluctant to turn on red when they visit the USA because it's illegal in their countries and it's just very hard for them to overcome that. I guess I can understand that sort of thing–especially the Brits who are already adjusting to driving on the wrong side of the road when they come here.
/me wonders how, exactly, one can determine by looking through the rear window of a driver's car that (s)he is British.
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 10, 2012, 08:10:49 PM
I'm not arguing the legal facts. Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No. But if they do sit there instead of going when they are able, they are needlessly holding up the traffic behind them and impeding others' progress without cause. They are not considering the other drivers' need to get somewhere and instead only focusing on their own desire to sit at the light for whatever reason. This makes them an asshole.
Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No. This makes anyone who honks their horn at them an asshole.
Quote from: NE2 on August 10, 2012, 08:14:35 PM
Is it legal to sit here for eight hours?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi50.tinypic.com%2Fnogg05.jpg&hash=dbd5c6b96a1bb80877268cef8d9ae385ab105a35) (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=35.218662,-80.835259&spn=0.001955,0.004128&gl=us&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=35.218616,-80.835317&panoid=XtfTmHxSq9fhdRrxL_1Luw&cbp=12,279.04,,1,-8.44)
Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?
Because there are conflicting green movements?
Quote from: NE2 on August 11, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?
Because there are conflicting green movements?
Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 11, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?
Because there are conflicting green movements?
Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.
I don't think there are any times it would be a green arrow.
Why exactly is the light not turning green for 8 hours?
Quote from: kj3400 on August 11, 2012, 04:06:42 PM
Why exactly is the light not turning green for 8 hours?
Because it's a parking garage exit at a busy intersection, and there's no need to give it any priority until the afternoon.
Quote from: NE2 on August 11, 2012, 03:27:30 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 02:47:39 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 11, 2012, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 11, 2012, 01:41:00 PM
Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?
Because there are conflicting green movements?
Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.
I don't think there are any times it would be a green arrow.
Ah, I was thinking it was the entrance, not the exit. So then I guess my next question would be why it doesn't simply go to flashing red mode instead of solid red, with cross traffic receiving a flashing yellow. Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.
You can click the link to street view and move around.
Quote from: NE2 on August 12, 2012, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.
You can click the link to street view and move around.
Thanks. I see that opposing traffic has dual left turn lanes which are striped in such as way as to leave two of the four intersecting lanes open. So I see no reason why the parking garage couldn't get a green right turn arrow whenever opposing traffic gets a green: their turn movements should not conflict; in fact, there should be a whole empty lane between them.
I assume they thought that people coming off I-277 would not be courteous enough to get in the leftmost two lanes.
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 09:31:27 AM
Quote from: NE2 on August 12, 2012, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.
You can click the link to street view and move around.
Thanks. I see that opposing traffic has dual left turn lanes which are striped in such as way as to leave two of the four intersecting lanes open. So I see no reason why the parking garage couldn't get a green right turn arrow whenever opposing traffic gets a green: their turn movements should not conflict; in fact, there should be a whole empty lane between them.
Can't do that without physical separation.
Quote from: Steve on August 13, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
Can't do that without physical separation.
That was my first thought too. Just because the lanes are
striped that way doesn't mean you won't get people turning left into the far right lane anyway.
Quote from: Central Avenue on August 14, 2012, 01:58:02 AM
Quote from: Steve on August 13, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
Can't do that without physical separation.
That was my first thought too. Just because the lanes are striped that way doesn't mean you won't get people turning left into the far right lane anyway.
I'd go a step further and say that based on what I observe in day-to-day driving, it is virtually certain that unless you have physical separation, you will get people turning into the far lane. Around here I see people doing that even when there are multiple turn lanes–they just turn into whichever lane they want without bothering to look to see if it's clear. I think around here one reason for that is Virginia's insistence on prohibiting turns on red from any lane other than the curb lane, so when people turn right they tend to favor the curb lane.
Quote from: Steve on August 13, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 09:31:27 AM
Quote from: NE2 on August 12, 2012, 08:55:33 AM
Quote from: kphoger on August 12, 2012, 08:21:42 AM
Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.
You can click the link to street view and move around.
Thanks. I see that opposing traffic has dual left turn lanes which are striped in such as way as to leave two of the four intersecting lanes open. So I see no reason why the parking garage couldn't get a green right turn arrow whenever opposing traffic gets a green: their turn movements should not conflict; in fact, there should be a whole empty lane between them.
Can't do that without physical separation.
Really? I've personally driven through at least one intersection like that. The stoplight I'm thinking of is the Harlem exit off I-290 (the Eisenhower) in Oak Park, Illinois (http://goo.gl/maps/9x623 (http://goo.gl/maps/9x623)). Eastbound traffic turning north gets a green left turn arrow at the same time that westbound traffic turning north gets a green right turn arrow. At least, that's the way it was as recently as 2000. And, in that location, there's not even a "buffer lane" in between, such as there is at the location mentioned up-thread.