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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Topic started by: golden eagle on August 09, 2010, 11:15:38 PM

Title: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: golden eagle on August 09, 2010, 11:15:38 PM
I wish Mississippi would do like the surrounding states (minus Tennessee) and outline the state's shape on its highways. The white circle with black numbers gets a little old. What are your opinions on state shapes on highways? I think the beehive on Utah's is ugly but unique.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: corco on August 09, 2010, 11:18:03 PM
I like how Wyoming and Colorado use slightly mis-proportioned cutout state outlines, that's for sure
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: golden eagle on August 09, 2010, 11:18:23 PM
While looking at some past threads, I discovered one like this that was already made last year. This can be deleted if necessary.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Bickendan on August 10, 2010, 12:50:31 AM
At least link us to the old one first!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: huskeroadgeek on August 10, 2010, 03:55:16 AM
My favorite general design of state highway shields are the state outline shields. The reason is that a state's outline is one of the most recognizable and unique things about each state and makes the shield easily identifiable. The exception of course is Colorado and Wyoming whose outlines look almost indistinguishable from each other. The plain black and white shapes without the state name or are my least favorite because some of them look identical to ones in other states and aren't easily identifiable.

Utah's beehive is an interesting one-when a friend and I were traveling through Utah back in the mid 90s, we discussed with each other what that shape was on the state highway signs. I don't think I figured out what it was until later when I heard Utah called "The Beehive State" and I figured out that must be what the outline is.

Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: froggie on August 10, 2010, 07:24:51 AM
A couple relevant pages:

James Lin's state highway markers (http://www.routemarkers.com/states/), showing the current route markers in use.  A quick count shows 15 states (plus DC) using the state outline in some form or another.  I don't count Colorado or Wyoming since both states are rectangular and these are square shields (though both states have other redeeming qualities on their route markers).

The Great International Highway Makeover (http://www.us-highways.com/new_signs.htm), originally created by CC Slater...since hosted by RV Droz.  User-submitted ideas for new/redone route markers for every state, some Canadian provinces, and several countries.  My own proposals are listed for both Mississippi (http://www.us-highways.com/newms.htm) and Louisiana (http://www.us-highways.com/newla.htm).
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: golden eagle on August 10, 2010, 12:44:28 PM
Quote from: froggie on August 10, 2010, 07:24:51 AM
My own proposals are listed for both Mississippi (http://www.us-highways.com/newms.htm) and Louisiana (http://www.us-highways.com/newla.htm).


The Mississippi 40 sign is definitely similar to what I had in mind, but I was thinking of a black background and numbers with the state design being white rather than the other way around.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 12:52:09 PM
Colorado is not rectangular.  Like Arizona's abstracted state outline, Colo takes liberties as well.  :pan:

I really do wish Arizona would bring back the correct Colorado River shape on the left side of the shield.  I do not know why they went away from it - it does make centering the number a bit easier, but given that the state name is not centered I don't see a problem.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/AZ/AZ19601641i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Rover_0 on August 10, 2010, 01:05:59 PM
I'd like to see Arizona return to a more correct Colorado River outline, as well, but I wouldn't mind seeing something like the simplified Colorado River outline (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=AZ19731791).

As for Utah, I like the beehive symbol enough, though the shield could use a bit of a facelift to accommodate 3-digit numbers better, as well as using some amount of color.  I don't think that all states need to use state outlines for their shields; in a sense, that makes state route markers follow a relatively boring template, though it would be light years ahead of the circle and square, at least being unique.

What about using symbols from state flags?  Alaska does it (Big Dipper), Utah (Beehive), New Mexico (Zia Sun), South Carolina (Palmetto), Washington (Geroge Washington's head), Oregon (spade-shield), and others I can't think of right now.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 01:11:27 PM
something like what?  the 504 is the correct outline.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Bryant5493 on August 10, 2010, 05:55:37 PM
I like the route number inside of the outline of the state. It makes it more clear what state you're in, if you're going border to border on a certain route, that changes across state boundaries.


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
I don't know if one necessarilly needs a state shape for a unique route marker.  Let's be honest, it just doesn't work well for Illinois or Indiana.  That's been tried and rejected.  I prefer unique shapes rather than circles or squares, or even stretched out state shapes made to fit around the numbers but don't resemble the state in any shape or form or alternate reality.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 10, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
I prefer unique shapes rather than circles or squares

California's spade, New York's colonial seal, Pennsylvania's keystone, and Kansas's sunflower all work nicely to this effect - though it'd be nice if the latter three were still cutouts!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 06:32:03 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
I don't know if one necessarilly needs a state shape for a unique route marker.  Let's be honest, it just doesn't work well for Illinois or Indiana.  That's been tried and rejected.  I prefer unique shapes rather than circles or squares, or even stretched out state shapes made to fit around the numbers but don't resemble the state in any shape or form or alternate reality.

yep, Alabama stretched its state outline.  Illinois and Indiana need to come up with something better than that horrid square, though.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 06:32:19 PM
I prefer unique shields as well.  Also Oregon's upside-down spade and Washington's head in Washington.  I don't think Washington ever used Cut-outs.  The cut-outs in Oregon were quite cool.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/OR/OR19550971i1.jpg)

Apparently this sign no longer exists.  :(
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 06:32:39 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 10, 2010, 06:04:43 PM

California's spade, New York's colonial seal, Pennsylvania's keystone, and Kansas's sunflower all work nicely to this effect - though it'd be nice if the latter three were still cutouts!

the sunflower was never a cutout.  Think of the sawblade effect!  "Toto, I don't think my head is attached anymore."
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 06:32:19 PM
I prefer unique shields as well.  Also Oregon's upside-down spade and Washington's head in Washington.  I don't think Washington ever used Cut-outs.  The cut-outs in Oregon were quite cool.
Apparently this sign no longer exists.  :(

it does not, but there are some eagle shields left if you know where to look.  no more US cutouts as far as I know, though.  Oregon switched to black squares in 1974.  The newer Oregon looks like the head of a Grey Alien - they really to put that eagle back on the shield.

Washington indeed never used a cutout. 
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: tdindy88 on August 10, 2010, 09:42:58 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 06:32:03 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
I don't know if one necessarilly needs a state shape for a unique route marker.  Let's be honest, it just doesn't work well for Illinois or Indiana.  That's been tried and rejected.  I prefer unique shapes rather than circles or squares, or even stretched out state shapes made to fit around the numbers but don't resemble the state in any shape or form or alternate reality.

yep, Alabama stretched its state outline.  Illinois and Indiana need to come up with something better than that horrid square, though.

Funny, this is mentioned, because there is a sign in southern Bloomington, Indiana on what is locally called Walnut Street that is the shape of the state of Indiana. I know of a second shield that is located literally on top of the dam for Monroe Reservoir directing traffic toward SR 37. Not sure how it would look on three-digit numbers, but it looks great on two-digit numbers. Here's a Google Maps view of that sign:


http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bloomington,+IN&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bloomington,+Monroe,+Indiana&ll=39.107236,-86.531496&spn=0,0.019205&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.107324,-86.531483&panoid=cvEHF_9OTQ6hVYagrjqqrQ&cbp=12,257.08,,0,5 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bloomington,+IN&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bloomington,+Monroe,+Indiana&ll=39.107236,-86.531496&spn=0,0.019205&z=16&layer=c&cbll=39.107324,-86.531483&panoid=cvEHF_9OTQ6hVYagrjqqrQ&cbp=12,257.08,,0,5)

The sign should be in the norhtwest corner of the intersection of Walnut and Church Lane.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: ctsignguy on August 10, 2010, 09:52:37 PM
Old Indy and Illy shields....

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu102%2Fctsignguy%2Find124.jpg&hash=507fa85fd8ddbc99e7aebd60a50512e083390a92)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu102%2Fctsignguy%2Fill42.jpg&hash=13584ecfbe1d8cb506d76ee8df52692e354162ca)

as jake says, the shape of the State kinda makes reverting back to them rather difficult under current MUTCD regs...

Idaho has a nice solution to the problem tho...
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi166.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fu102%2Fctsignguy%2Fid77.jpg&hash=2aaba8b0eeedcd01dab02c5777c624a4fb6fce67)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: golden eagle on August 10, 2010, 10:03:53 PM
This is one ugly Georgia highway shield (http://www.gribblenation.com/gapics/gallery/ga9-120e-williams.JPG). But I do like the ones on the BGS's (http://www.gribblenation.com/gapics/gallery/ga141s-i285-tillymill-kerr.jpg). While Michigan doesn't use a state outline, I do like the block M (similar to the University of Michigan M) on their signs.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 06:36:04 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 06:32:19 PM
I prefer unique shields as well.  Also Oregon's upside-down spade and Washington's head in Washington.  I don't think Washington ever used Cut-outs.  The cut-outs in Oregon were quite cool.
Apparently this sign no longer exists.  :(

it does not, but there are some eagle shields left if you know where to look.  no more US cutouts as far as I know, though.  Oregon switched to black squares in 1974.  The newer Oregon looks like the head of a Grey Alien - they really to put that eagle back on the shield.

Washington indeed never used a cutout. 
Last time I went to the Cheesecake Factory in Washington Square (Tigard), I think I saw a classic SR-217 shield.  Perhaps the next time I go to Togo's in the Portland Area, I'll take a photo.

The New Oregon shield looks like they just flipped the California shield, made it white and put it on a black bg sign. 
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
Last time I went to the Cheesecake Factory in Washington Square (Tigard), I think I saw a classic SR-217 shield.  Perhaps the next time I go to Togo's in the Portland Area, I'll take a photo.

The New Oregon shield looks like they just flipped the California shield, made it white and put it on a black bg sign. 

217 is one of the numbers that floats around.

an Oregon 66 looks much like a Hawaii 99.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Eth on August 10, 2010, 11:24:31 PM
Quote from: golden eagle on August 10, 2010, 10:03:53 PM
This is one ugly Georgia highway shield (http://www.gribblenation.com/gapics/gallery/ga9-120e-williams.JPG). But I do like the ones on the BGS's (http://www.gribblenation.com/gapics/gallery/ga141s-i285-tillymill-kerr.jpg). While Michigan doesn't use a state outline, I do like the block M (similar to the University of Michigan M) on their signs.

Believe me, Georgia has far worse (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=GA19795755).  I constantly wanted to throw up when I saw these showing up everywhere several years ago.  That 141 is a good one, though.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: nyratk1 on August 10, 2010, 11:44:37 PM
Quote from: Rover_0 on August 10, 2010, 01:05:59 PM
What about using symbols from state flags?  Alaska does it (Big Dipper), Utah (Beehive), New Mexico (Zia Sun), South Carolina (Palmetto), Washington (Geroge Washington's head), Oregon (spade-shield), and others I can't think of right now.

New York has a simplified version of their flag's shield.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 03:29:43 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 10, 2010, 06:04:43 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2010, 06:01:39 PM
I prefer unique shapes rather than circles or squares

California's spade, New York's colonial seal, Pennsylvania's keystone, and Kansas's sunflower all work nicely to this effect - though it'd be nice if the latter three were still cutouts!

Kansas was never a cutout.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 03:49:34 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 03:29:43 AM

Kansas was never a cutout.

Yeah, I just checked James Lin's site earlier and saw that. 

That does bring up a good question: excluding California, how many states HAVE used cutouts of their shield shape?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: KEK Inc. on August 11, 2010, 07:49:52 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 10, 2010, 10:15:47 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on August 10, 2010, 10:09:16 PM
Last time I went to the Cheesecake Factory in Washington Square (Tigard), I think I saw a classic SR-217 shield.  Perhaps the next time I go to Togo's in the Portland Area, I'll take a photo.

The New Oregon shield looks like they just flipped the California shield, made it white and put it on a black bg sign. 

217 is one of the numbers that floats around.

an Oregon 66 looks much like a Hawaii 99.
I don't think the angle is that sharp.  :P  Hawaii's is practically a triangle with rounded corners.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: US71 on August 11, 2010, 08:15:56 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 03:49:34 AM

That does bring up a good question: excluding California, how many states HAVE used cutouts of their shield shape?

Arkansas & Missouri have
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 08:24:10 AM
Do you consider a yellow diamond a "cutout"? OK's first shield was pretty much a yellow version of Michigan's "cutout" with "OK" replacing the M.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 11:12:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 08:24:10 AM
Do you consider a yellow diamond a "cutout"? OK's first shield was pretty much a yellow version of Michigan's "cutout" with "OK" replacing the M.

Absolutely, considering that while it's the same shape as the square, it doesn't involve painting the design on a square but rather the physical route shield representing a design.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:31:48 AM
nearly all of them.

Alabama - white square since when they changed away from a diamond
Alaska - been the white square since the beginning
Arizona - yes
Arkansas - yes
California - yes
Colorado - used to be a boring white square, and before that an orange and white circle
Conn - been a boring square since the beginning
Delaware - used to be a boring square before they went to the boring circle
DC - used to be a city route size (11") US shield shape with DC in the crown
Florida - been the white square since they changed away from a diamond
Georgia - yes
Hawaii - yes
Idaho - was a white square with state outline before the current black square
Illinois - was a white rectangle with state outline
Indiana - another one that was white rectangle with state outline
Iowa - was a cutout boring circle
Kansas - been a black square since the beginning
Kentucky - was a cutout boring circle
Louisiana - used to be a diamond (along with other southeastern states) that featured a pelican before going to a white square with state outline
Maine - been a boring square since the beginning
Maryland - been a boring rectangle since the beginning
Massachusetts - been a boring square since the beginning
Michigan - yes
Minnesota - used to be a north star before going to a black and white boring square and then the current design
Mississippi - used to be cutout triangle, then triangle on white square and then black square until recently
Missouri - yes
Montana - been a boring square since the beginning
Nebraska - used to be a diamond shape but the covered wagon design has been there since the beginning
Nevada - was a white square from the beginning, never a cutout
New Hampshire - been a boring square since the beginning
New Jersey - yes
New Mexico - yes
New York - yes
North Carolina - yes
North Dakota - started out as a white square but same basic layout
Ohio - yes
Oklahoma - yellow diamond at the beginning, then boring square, then boring circle, and now cleaver
Oregon - yes
Pennsylvania - yes
Rhode Island - been a boring square since the beginning
South Carolina - was at one point a white square with state outline, then boring square for a while, now rectangle
South Dakota - yes - was state outline cutout, then a boring square for many years, then Rushmore design, then current state outline
Tennessee - was a cutout triangle, then white square triangle, then black square triangle, then current style
Texas - used to be a five-pointed star on a white square
Utah - big letter U was changed to beehive in 1961.  all big U shields were cutouts
Vermont - been a boring square since the beginning
Virginia - yes
Washington - been a black square since the beginning
West Virginia - been a boring square since the beginning
Wisconsin - used to be a simple triangle, then they added the oblong behind it, and this cutout form was turned into a black square
Wyoming - the first generation was a porcelain rectangle with a triangle on it, and then they introduced the cowboy
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Michael in Philly on August 11, 2010, 11:53:43 AM
Connecticut apparently went through a phase where they were using a white square, with an outline of the state in it (and "Conn." above it, maybe?) and the number inside the outline.  15 to 20 years ago you saw a lot of these on the Merritt Parkway.

New Hampshire has the Old Man of the Mountain outline.  Someone here's got it in his avatar.

Unless, by "boring square," you mean the signs themselves were always square, never cutout....

Added:  Vermont used to use circles, now a green-and-white thing with a sort of cross-bar above the route number with "Vermont" in it - reminiscent of the font they use on their license plates - and the number in a sort of flattened circle.

Edit 2:  I like Maryland's markers, which are not a simple boring rectangle.  (And give the state extra points for having one of the best flags in the world.)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:57:51 AM
Quote from: Michael in Philly on August 11, 2010, 11:53:43 AM
Connecticut apparently went through a phase where they were using a white square, with an outline of the state in it (and "Conn." above it, maybe?) and the number inside the outline.  15 to 20 years ago you saw a lot of these on the Merritt Parkway.

were those ever used outside of the Merritt area?  that's the only place I've ever seen them - either Route 15 trailblazers, or for other numbers, shields that appeared on the parkway itself.

QuoteNew Hampshire has the Old Man of the Mountain outline.  Someone here's got it in his avatar.

they only switched to that sometime around the 60s or 70s.  Before that, it was the square from 1926 on.  Every New England state used the boring square because that was the symbol for the New England highway system.

QuoteUnless, by "boring square," you mean the signs themselves were always square, never cutout....

nope, I mean a square with no other design - just number and state name (and sometimes not even that).  Not even a cowboy.

QuoteAdded:  Vermont used to use circles, now a green-and-white thing with a sort of cross-bar above the route number with "Vermont" in it - reminiscent of the font they use on their license plates - and the number in a sort of flattened circle.

yep, but they were a square state from 1926 to 1973 or so.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Michael in Philly on August 11, 2010, 01:25:48 PM
It wasn't clear to me you were talking about history before a certain date.  I don't know the answer about Connecticut-outline signs away from the Merritt.  Is this your site - www.aaroads.com/shields/ ?  That's impressive.  You should try to get hold of the old Interstate-shaped shields for the RI 195 expressway (which may no longer exist - I mean the route itself may no longer exist.  It was the shape of an Interstate marker, but black on white, with "Rhode Island" where "Interstate" would normally be (and, obviously, nothing below the horizontal line.  Why am I going on about this?  Because the Interstate-configured DC-US 1's (which I never knew about) reminded me of it.))
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:27:39 PM
If I can ever find a photo of one of those RI-195s I'd love to see it.  They were around in the 80s but I haven't seen one in years.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: yakra on August 11, 2010, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: ctsignguy on August 10, 2010, 09:52:37 PMas jake says, the shape of the State kinda makes reverting back to them rather difficult under current MUTCD regs...
What prevents this?

Maine humorist Gary Crocker on the Boring Square:
http://www.garycrocker.com/sound/22mph-grandmother.mp3
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: yakra on August 11, 2010, 01:42:20 PM
Quote from: ctsignguy on August 10, 2010, 09:52:37 PMas jake says, the shape of the State kinda makes reverting back to them rather difficult under current MUTCD regs...
What prevents this?

the current MUTCD states that all route numbers must be at least Series C wide, and all shields at least 24x24 inches with at least 8" high digits, which is just topologically inconsistent with the older 12x18 Illinois shields and that vertically oriented state outline.

one thing to do would possibly be what Florida does - cut away enough of the state outline to fit in the number.  In fact, Illinois did that as well.  Maybe just put this shield style on a wider blank?

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/IL/IL19564601i1.jpg)

if you play it well, you could even fit the word ILLINOIS in there without compromising legibility.  Tonight, if I have the time, I'll put together a mockup.

that said, I am not 100% sure if Florida is in compliance with the current MUTCD, since they feature an outline shield, as opposed to a solid background.  The 1961 MUTCD states that the state route shield is to be "fundamentally similar" to the US route shield, and that is why a lot of states switched from outline designs to solid ones in that year, as the 1948 style outline shield white square US marker was changed to the current black square.

For example, this North Dakota style gave way to the current one.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/ND/ND19600241i1.jpg)

I haven't looked in detail at an MUTCD more recent than 1961.  
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:48:54 PM
The 1961 MUTCD states that the state route shield is to be "fundamentally similar" to the US route shield, and that is why a lot of states switched from outline designs to solid ones in that year, as the 1948 style outline shield white square US marker was changed to the current black square.

In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

I really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

CA uses the last federal cutout US marker style - the "US only" that was, in 1961, specified to be paired with an interstate shield as a freeway reassurance marker.  A lot of states have used them in a lot of contexts - I've got a photo of a US 167 trailblazer from Arkansas that is the California style, for example.  As far as I know, though, CA is the one state that has ever used them universally.  Well, more power to them, as they did invent the style in 1956.

QuoteI really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!

and loop roads, farm roads, ranch roads, beltways, park roads, NASA access roads, etc etc.  Texas sure gets a lot of mileage out of the boring square!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:00:05 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 01:54:38 PM
In that vein, since California has continued to use the 1961-style cutouts, are they in compliance by using cutout state spades?

CA uses the last federal cutout US marker style - the "US only" that was, in 1961, specified to be paired with an interstate shield as a freeway reassurance marker.  A lot of states have used them in a lot of contexts - I've got a photo of a US 167 trailblazer from Arkansas that is the California style, for example.  As far as I know, though, CA is the one state that has ever used them universally.  Well, more power to them, as they did invent the style in 1956.

I wonder if the cost savings to go all-square as opposed to cutout are negligable, though California has plenty of milage that they'd be ordering in bulk (and having a better economy of scale) regardless of what shape they used.

It's not as if the Golden State has ever regularly used or even considered painted squares, and for whatever reason, they don't seem motivated to start now (which is awesome).


Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
QuoteI really like that the three route designations in use here (state, US, Interstate) are represented with different colors and cutout shapes - I didn't truly appreciate it until my Austin trip where you have to differentiate between black-on-white US and black-on-white state shields (all painted in square blanks)!

and loop roads, farm roads, ranch roads, beltways, park roads, NASA access roads, etc etc.  Texas sure gets a lot of mileage out of the boring square!

It's understandable given Texas's size, but I'm amused by the fact that with all the variants of state-route types, one can theoretically reuse the same state route number 4 or 5 times for different types of road!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 02:03:25 PM
as for them using cutout state route markers - that's a bit tougher to answer.  The 1948 MUTCD specified 24" outline shields on the white background for intersection markers, which quite a few states (Miss, Washington, New Jersey etc) took to mean "more abstract cutouts".  The 16" reassurance marker was still present in the 1961 MUTCD - with the state/US style for US routes.  Though by then some states had switched to 16" cutouts with no state name or other adornment (see Virginia), which was not quite compliant but as it was more legible than what was compliant, nobody cared. 

the 1970 MUTCD did not say anything on the topic of cutouts for reassurance, but did mandate that all shields be at least 24 inches, which for most states meant the dropping of the cutout style, and the use of the large 24" intersection markers (black squares) in all contexts. This kept inventory a lot simpler.  Though some states, like Minnesota and Nebraska, simply moved to 24" black squares while keeping the state/US style.

Since California did not have any state or US markers in 1970 that were smaller than 24 inches, they were technically in compliance and did not change any of their shield styles. 

Never mind that they had, and still have, 21x18 interstate shields on the books, and in fact still put them up every so often.  I do not remember what the 1970 MUTCD had to say on the topic of 18" interstate shields.


Post Merge: August 12, 2010, 02:10:06 PM

Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:00:05 PM
I wonder if the cost savings to go all-square as opposed to cutout are negligable, though California has plenty of milage that they'd be ordering in bulk (and having a better economy of scale) regardless of what shape they used.

It's not as if the Golden State has ever regularly used or even considered painted squares, and for whatever reason, they don't seem motivated to start now (which is awesome).

it certainly simplifies things for inventory control.  A 24" square with rounded corners is a 24" square with rounded corners.  In fact, a lot of places order the blanks in bulk with the holes punched for both square and diagonal mounting.

This sign from Kansas has two sets of mounting holes, with only one receiving any use.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19680561i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:22:50 PM
How much more legible are 24" markers in comparison to 16" markers?  Surely the removal of the crossbar and the statename should've helped for the latter...

It's an interesting coincidence that the larger marker came into prevalance around the time that California was looking to eliminate the lengthy US route concurrencies...essentially, one larger sign supplanting four or so smaller shields!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 02:26:05 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:22:50 PM
How much more legible are 24" markers in comparison to 16" markers?  Surely the removal of the crossbar and the statename should've helped for the latter...

the 16" shields are so rare that every time I run across one I remark just how tiny they are!  Especially when mounted high (to deter theft), 16" signs can really take their sweet time revealing themselves.  Virginia's a good place to see lots of 16" shields in the wild.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:28:51 PM
I've see photos of Virginia's US-route cutouts and thought they were pretty neat.  Were they the last non-California state to use US route cutouts extensively?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 02:33:44 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 02:28:51 PM
I've see photos of Virginia's US-route cutouts and thought they were pretty neat.  Were they the last non-California state to use US route cutouts extensively?

yes.  most states stopped in 1970, or just a few years thereafter, but they were using the state-named style.  Oregon, 1974.  Missouri, 1973.  Kansas, 1978, may have been the last state putting up the state-named style but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s. 

I do not know when Montana switched away from the California-style cutouts, but they were still using them in 1973. 

Post Merge: August 12, 2010, 02:10:19 PM

as for small highway markers, Oregon is the last state to regularly use 18" shields.  I am quite sure they're still being put up, especially at T-intersections underneath a set of green distance signs in either direction.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 03:27:55 PM
Quote from: corco on August 09, 2010, 11:18:03 PM
I like how Wyoming and Colorado use slightly mis-proportioned cutout state outlines, that's for sure

I don't think those were intended to be outline maps of Colorado and Wyoming; they were just meant to be square signs. At least these two states employ some creativity on their state highway markers; Colorado's is the best of all 50 in my opinion.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 03:29:23 PM
Quote from: hm insulators on August 11, 2010, 03:27:55 PM
I don't think those were intended to be outline maps of Colorado and Wyoming; they were just meant to be square signs. At least these two states employ some creativity on their state highway markers; Colorado's is the best of all 50 in my opinion.

Colorado's marker has great promise, but the resultant "squashed" field for the number is a bit disproportionate.  I'd decrease the flag's height, while keeping the general layout, to vaguely make it resemble a Minnesota marker in proportion.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Brandon on August 11, 2010, 04:04:04 PM
RE: US shield cutouts,

Michigan was using a US cutout that omitted the "US" at the top.  No idea when they dropped this, but I think it should make a comeback.
US-23 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19690231), US-27 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19610691), US-127 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19691271).
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 04:12:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 11, 2010, 04:04:04 PM
RE: US shield cutouts,

Michigan was using a US cutout that omitted the "US" at the top.  No idea when they dropped this, but I think it should make a comeback.
US-23 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19690231), US-27 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19610691), US-127 (//www.aaroads.com/shields/show.php?image=MI19691271).

I had forgotten about Michigan.  that's an example of a state that interpreted the 1948 spec to say "large cutout", as opposed to "large white square".  those shields were used 1948-1970.  In 1970 is when Michigan caught up to the federal standard - before that, the freeway junction and signs were of that cutout style, and other contexts got MICHIGAN/US shields in 16, 24, and 36 inch sizes.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:11:15 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:31:48 AM
Tennessee - was a cutout triangle, then white square triangle, then black square triangle, then current style

The black square triangle is very much in use for Tennessee's secondary state highways.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3350%2F3663618354_092056827c.jpg&hash=3c649d2b57e35ebead0996e91bf0a9dccc464dd2)
TN46 by mightyace, on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyace/3663618354/)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 05:15:14 PM
different style.  this is the old primary marker.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/TN/TN19660681i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
^^^

Agreed.

Though, the current SSH marker is certainly a descendant of the old primary one.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 05:20:48 PM
Quote from: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
^^^

Agreed.

Though, the current SSH marker is certainly a descendant of the old primary one.

what did they use for secondary routes before 1982?  or was such a system not in place?  1982 is when they introduced the current style of primary marker.

also, note on that TENN 68 the extra two diagonally placed mounting holes.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:23:37 PM
^^^

As the first time I was in Tennessee was 1987 or 1988, I can't say.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 05:26:32 PM
I was first in Tennessee in 1986 and I remember the "evil robot shields" very distinctly. 

that "TENN" looks like quite the set of teeth to a five-year-old's imagination!  :sombrero:
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:28:10 PM
According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

QuoteNote 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.

Off topic but interesting:
QuoteNote 1: The Tennessee Department of Transportation maintains these routes under the "State Highways" title of state law, but designates them as "state routes".
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 05:41:54 PM
Quote from: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:28:10 PM
According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

QuoteNote 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.

well, close enough - one has the state name, the other does not.  and they are differently shaped.  but Wikipedia tends to be pretty balky at accurate highway sign representations!  :pan:
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Alex on August 11, 2010, 06:43:57 PM
Quote from: mightyace on August 11, 2010, 05:28:10 PM
According to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_state_routes_in_Tennessee

QuoteNote 2: The triangle design (above) was the primary design until 1982, when Tennessee divided its routes into primary and secondary routes.


The official state map also reflects the 1982 switch, indicating the partition of the state highways into a primary and secondary based system. They probably figured by coming up with the square design, that shield replacements could be grandfathered in, rather than all at once, of those old triangle shields with TENN to the new rounded end triangle shields you find today.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 06:47:29 PM
Quote from: AARoads on August 11, 2010, 06:43:57 PM

The official state map also reflects the 1982 switch, indicating the partition of the state highways into a primary and secondary based system. They probably figured by coming up with the square design, that shield replacements could be grandfathered in, rather than all at once, of those old triangle shields with TENN to the new rounded end triangle shields you find today.

I wonder if there are any secondary routes that are marked with the old-style triangle.  I know of two state-named triangles left in Tenn, but I believe both are for primary routes.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 07:16:10 PM
A bit of a guess here:  the 1982 shield change was timed for the Knoxville World's Fair?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 02:33:44 PM
but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s.

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:39:12 PM

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

that was an earlier controversy.  South Dakota, North Carolina, Illinois, and some other states eliminated "US" around 1950, and were forced to bring it back in 1956.  Thus the existence of no-US shields on embossed state-named blanks, and with-US completely flat shields.

as far as I can tell, Washington got off scot-free, as I have never seen a flat WASHINGTON/US shield, but have seen them without US.

some states like Ohio and Tennessee moved the US into the crown.  OHIO-US, TENN-US, etc.  Those, apparently, were not called out, as they did not bring the US back "downstairs".
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 11:45:21 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:39:12 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 02:33:44 PM
but they had eliminated the "US" by the early 1960s.

Apparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

Robert Droz's page goes into detail about the US/neutered controversy of the 1950s:
http://www.us-highways.com/ussign.htm
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:48:58 PM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 11, 2010, 11:45:21 PM
Robert Droz's page goes into detail about the US/neutered controversy of the 1950s:
http://www.us-highways.com/ussign.htm

from Robert Droz's page:

QuoteThis design was very popular in the Plains states as well, including Texas.
negative - Texas had a shield style with US in the crown, and no state name.  And only a partial border.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/TX/TX19480751i1.jpg)

QuoteIn 1953, AASHO put their foot down and required the "US" be placed back on the signs.

oops, '53 not '56.  I had misremembered.

QuoteThis lead to yet another design change in 1954, when Ohio, and many of the eastern states decided to place an abbreviation and the US on the top line of the sign and remove the divider line.
not quite.  Ohio and Tenn had the OHIO-US and TENN-US, with divider line, by 1948.  Ohio did indeed remove the divider line in 1954, but it was the only state, as far as I know, that did not have the divider line.  They used this style until 1961.

QuoteExamples were "OHIO-US", "MASS-US, "CONN-US, "D.C.-US", "MISS-US", "TENN-US" etc.
I've never seen MASS-US, CONN-US, or MISS-US.  D.C.-US had the crossbar consistently.

TENN-US was first placed only on the oversize 24x24 white squares.  The smaller reassurance markers continued to have TENN and US on separate lines.  Then they moved the TENN-US to one line on the cutouts too, then finally eliminated the cutouts, using - by 1958 or so - the 24" white squares for reassurance.

QuoteBy way of contrast, both the Carolinas went as far as to spell out "UNITED STATES" using series "A" on the top of their signs, however, this design was very short lived as well, because series "A" is very hard to read. (I'm looking for pictures of these. Let me know if you find any.)
I have definitely never seen a picture of this!!  
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:53:36 PM
I'd like to see an even more in-depth description of what happened with that. What justification did FHWA have for keeping "US" on the signs? What did they hang over the states' heads to keep it on the shields? If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?

I tend to find myself not trusting older roadgeek sites as much as I once did. We know so much more about the history of things now than we did when a lot of those sites went online. This is primarily due to the webmasters of old not having all the information in front of them so they made educated guesses to fill in the gaps. Often they were mostly right, but further research tends to turn up previously unknown, more short-lived variants that fill in the gray areas.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 11, 2010, 11:56:30 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:53:36 PM
I'd like to see an even more in-depth description of what happened with that. What justification did FHWA have for keeping "US" on the signs? What did they hang over the states' heads to keep it on the shields? If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?

I tend to find myself not trusting older roadgeek sites as much as I once did. We know so much more about the history of things now than we did when a lot of those sites went online. This is primarily due to the webmasters of old not having all the information in front of them so they made educated guesses to fill in the gaps. Often they were mostly right, but further research tends to turn up previously unknown, more short-lived variants that fill in the gray areas.

Rob Droz is still very much around, so I can ask him for some source material.

even I'm guessing on some of the exact years - for example, Tennessee, did they drop the cutouts in '58?  who knows, but by '61 they were gone ... plain black squares all around.  Except for this one, which is an old white square that they repainted!

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/TN/TN19660251i4.jpg)

that one threw me for years before I figured out what it meant!  Looking at the sign up close and seeing the repaint certainly helped.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 12:34:26 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:53:36 PM
If it was so important that "US" was there in 1950, why did it suddenly not matter in 1961?


Wasn't the 1961 "California cutout" shield basically only originally intended for freeway trailblazers or something in that vein?  That it is the only surviving cutout design seems to have been an accident of circumstance.

I would guess that the removal of state name had to do with legibility issues (and maybe why the state-name plate has always been much smaller on the Interstate shields as a result).
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 12:42:25 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 12:34:26 AM

Wasn't the 1961 "California cutout" shield basically only originally intended for freeway trailblazers or something in that vein?  That it is the only surviving cutout design seems to have been an accident of circumstance.

freeway reassurance, to be posted directly underneath an interstate shield, according to AASHO 1961 manual.  36" interstate and 24" US shield.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/SD/SD19720901i1.jpg)

don't mind the funny shape; that is the correct application.

a lot of states used it incorrectly - my guess is, it happened mainly because the cutout was sitting in the sign shop when a marker of a given number was needed.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MO/MO19620501i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 12:48:41 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 12:42:25 AM

freeway reassurance, to be posted directly underneath an interstate shield, according to AASHO 1961 manual.  36" interstate and 24" US shield.

That actually explains EXACTLY why there's no state name in the 1961-spec US shield - in theory, the state name would already be in the Interstate shield above it!

I'm biased as a California native but I really appreciate the aesthetics of this look and wish more states still used it. 

Did Division of Highways use it "incorrectly" (basically, as it is used now - general-purpose US route trailblazer) from the start?  Were there any California US shields in the older state-name format made/installed after 1961, besides the historic-route markers?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 01:02:33 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 12:48:41 AM
Did Division of Highways use it "incorrectly" (basically, as it is used now - general-purpose US route trailblazer) from the start?  Were there any California US shields in the older state-name format made/installed after 1961, besides the historic-route markers?

yes.  California has been using this style exclusively since 1957.  The Feds borrowed the style from CA.  

by 1956, the need for simpler signs for high-speed contexts was becoming evident, so CA introduced this 24" style:

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19520701i1.jpg)

at the same time, the CALIFORNIA/US 18" shields were being made.  In March, 1957, the logo was dropped and this style of 24" shield was introduced.  The last porcelain independent-mount route marker style.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19560991i1.jpg)

then in May, 1957 the aluminum retroreflective cutout was introduced, and at that time it appears the 18" state-named shields went away.  My layout sheet is 5-28-57 for the new style and specifies either 18" or 24" size.

By 1958 the state-named US shields were certainly not being specified for use anywhere.

I am not 100% sure when the 18" no-state-name cutout was dropped, but I think around 1963.  I'll have to check - I believe I have a layout sheet from '63 that specifies only 24".
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 01:20:34 AM
I guess calling it the "1961-spec" (while true) really only makes sense in a federal context...it seems that the general concept (Series D/Series E numerals, no state name or crossbar, "US" in Series D) comes from the 1957 California look, and that the federal restrictions on its use ran counter to what was already established Division of Highways practice. 

When were the last button-copy-on-numeral variants of this shield produced?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 02:31:06 AM
Quote from: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 01:20:34 AM
I guess calling it the "1961-spec" (while true) really only makes sense in a federal context...it seems that the general concept (Series D/Series E numerals, no state name or crossbar, "US" in Series D) comes from the 1957 California look, and that the federal restrictions on its use ran counter to what was already established Division of Highways practice.  

When were the last button-copy-on-numeral variants of this shield produced?

the general concept had been around a lot longer.  

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/CA/CA19360911i1.jpg)

I believe the cutout style was used by Missouri a few years earlier.  Just a different shield shape.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/MO/MO19550401i1.jpg)

it is basically a 1948 spec 24" shield, just a cutout that also has US in it.  A lot of states had the cutout with no US as early as 1948.

I also have seen a photo from Oregon, that I believe is 1953, that has a US-only shield on a white illuminated-from-behind lane indicator.  I'll have to upload that photo.

as for California, the last discrete-reflectored variant would likely have been produced just before the spec of May 28 1957 took effect... so probably not too long after that date.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: J N Winkler on August 12, 2010, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:39:12 PMApparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

What is the textual source for this particular controversy?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on August 12, 2010, 02:50:04 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 12, 2010, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 11, 2010, 11:39:12 PMApparently this really cheesed FHWA off! I seem to recall they got rather fussy about it.

What is the textual source for this particular controversy?

Looking at Robert Droz's page (http://www.us-highways.com/ussign.htm) about the US shield changes, he cites the following:

Quote"From Names to Numbers: The Origins of the U.S. Numbered Highway System" by Richard F. Weingroff, FHWA Information Liason Specialist, published in AASHTO Quarterly, Spring 1997.
American Highways April 1927, Vol. VI No. 2
Florida: Trails to Turnpikes 1919-1964 by Baynard Kendrick, 1964
Older MUTCD information, especially about the smaller 'city use' US shields, and the wonderful 66 shield, Bob Ross
A great deal of the US shield information, the Texas 1950's picture, the Ohio-US, the Business 66, Kansas 24 and Washington 99 - Ron Wilbanks - you could even say he wrote much of this page.

---

Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 02:31:06 AM

as for California, the last discrete-reflectored variant would likely have been produced just before the spec of May 28 1957 took effect... so probably not too long after that date.

Do you know of any still-standing examples, or examples that lasted into the 80s or later?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 03:09:16 AM
Quote
A great deal of the US shield information, the Texas 1950's picture, the Ohio-US, the Business 66, Kansas 24 and Washington 99 - Ron Wilbanks - you could even say he wrote much of this page.

that explains much of the factual incorrectness  :ded:

QuoteDo you know of any still-standing examples, or examples that lasted into the 80s or later?

I do not, offhand.  Certainly none are surviving to this day.  The intermediate styles (1955-57, including the 29" California/US and bear shields of 1955) are very hard to find even in collections - for example, I do not know any shields of this style that exist anywhere.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/misc/23x27%201956%20spade%2039.png)

that is the state route equivalent of the US 60/70/99 that I just showed a photo of.  1956.

I know of one 1955-spec California/US shield, no 1955-spec huge bears (29" high, basically a scaled up version of the 18" bear), one 1956 spec US shield like that 60/70/99, as mentioned zero spades of that spec, and as for the early 1957 spec, I know three US (50, 66, 99) and two spade (49, 88).  

the only way I was able to reconstruct the 1956 narrow spade is because I'm looking at the specification sheet as we speak... it's on that CD I sent you, but don't ask me what page of that huge pdf file!  :-D
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: J N Winkler on August 12, 2010, 03:27:04 AM
Jake--have you considered setting up the shield generator for the five widths of outline guide-sign US shield as used in California?  Also, have you seen any photos of an outline version of the Kansas state route marker?  I can't imagine the "outline shield" schema working very well for that.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 09:12:38 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 12, 2010, 03:27:04 AM
Jake--have you considered setting up the shield generator for the five widths of outline guide-sign US shield as used in California? 

hmm, not with too much seriousness - I threw on the two widths of 1961 guide-sign US shield, and that's as far as I've gone with that.

QuoteAlso, have you seen any photos of an outline version of the Kansas state route marker?  I can't imagine the "outline shield" schema working very well for that.

I have not.  I have, however, seen this sign, which leads me to believe that a) Kansas used colored route markers, and b) in the case of needing an outline shield, they may have gone with something simpler.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19630691i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on August 12, 2010, 09:38:51 AM
What I mean about 1961 is not the CA-style cutout shield (which is part of an AASHTO document, not the MUTCD), but the shield as we know it today–black square and numbers with white shield. 1961 is when the cutout with state name was deleted and the 1948 "oversize" white square US route marker was colored black and became the sole "official" US route shield (the CA-style cutout notwithstanding). Why would there be this big controversy about "US" being on the marker in the early 1950s, and then in 1961 the MUTCD people do a 180 and introduce this spec with no US?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Quillz on August 31, 2010, 12:27:37 AM
California's is pretty neat... A cutout of a miner's spade. The fact that it's the last remaining cutout state route highway, and isn't stock black and white makes it very distinctive, I think.

I also like Minnesota's. They have a colorful square shield that at least has a silhouette of the state on it somewhere.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Quillz on October 28, 2010, 05:20:44 PM
People have said that New York's state route shield is based on its "colonial seal," but I'm not seeing it.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv45%2FNidoking%2FHighway%2520Shields%2Fth_NY-747_5a.jpg&hash=ac1db3e843692c7b10e249d2d032122919005f2c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Nidoking/Highway%20Shields/?action=view&current=NY-747_5a.jpg)

Can someone post the colonial seal? I've looked at the state flag and the symbol on the flag looks nothing like the shape used for the shields.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Quillz on October 28, 2010, 05:21:22 PM
Also, is Idaho the only state to have white numerals against a black background? I always thought white-on-black shields looked cool, especially since black-on-white is so overused and generic.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 05:44:44 PM
for modern signs, I can't think of any other than Idaho, but historically - offhand, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Florida, and Arizona come to mind - and I'm sure I could think of more if I considered it for a longer period of time.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Quillz on October 28, 2010, 05:59:03 PM
Yeah, I was specifically asking about modern signs. I've not seen any outside of Idaho, either. I've certainly seen various road signs with black backgrounds before, but they always intended to be read while at a stop, not while in motion.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: TheStranger on October 28, 2010, 06:12:36 PM
Arizona did use white-on-black for Loop 303 for a few years, but haven't the color shields for the Phoenix loops been reverted to the regular state shield?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Alps on October 28, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
This thread is crying out for a link: http://www.routemarkers.com/states/

Maine and Louisiana shields need updating...

California - white on green, cutout
Minnesota - white on blue
South Carolina - blue numerals
Vermont - green numerals
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Revive 755 on October 28, 2010, 06:58:18 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on August 12, 2010, 09:12:38 AM
(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19630691i1.jpg)

Fluke, or did Kansas once sign its junctions similar to how Nebraska still does?

According to Transportation in Iowa: A Historical Summary by William H. Thompson (or possibly some other book I'm confusing it with), the very first state highway shields (those used before the US routes came along) used a number inside the outline of the state on a square or rectangular background.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 07:04:42 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 28, 2010, 06:58:18 PM

Fluke, or did Kansas once sign its junctions similar to how Nebraska still does?

they did, kinda.  The sign is more analogous to this one.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19700561i1.jpg)

the white guide sign with colored shields seems to be some kind of an experiment.  don't ask me why the state route shield is a square. 
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: US71 on October 28, 2010, 07:08:30 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 28, 2010, 06:58:18 PM

According to Transportation in Iowa: A Historical Summary by William H. Thompson (or possibly some other book I'm confusing it with), the very first state highway shields (those used before the US routes came along) used a number inside the outline of the state on a square or rectangular background.

Missouri used an oval, originally.

Arkansas used an outline and the roads were numbered A-1, A-2, B-1, etc.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: DRMan on October 28, 2010, 10:30:45 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 07:04:42 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on October 28, 2010, 06:58:18 PM

Fluke, or did Kansas once sign its junctions similar to how Nebraska still does?

they did, kinda.  The sign is more analogous to this one.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19700561i1.jpg)

the white guide sign with colored shields seems to be some kind of an experiment.  don't ask me why the state route shield is a square. 

Why did they use a green shield for US 56?  Or is that a business route?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 10:34:46 PM
the green was used to mark the Santa Fe Trail.  The route was marked in green from its inception in 1957 to about the mid-1970s.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/KS/KS19500563i1.jpg)
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: US71 on October 28, 2010, 10:38:02 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 10:34:46 PM
the green was used to mark the Santa Fe Trail.  The route was marked in green from its inception in 1957 to about the mid-1970s.


That I didn't know. I thought it was simply an experiment.

Learn something new everyday, I guess.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: SidS1045 on October 28, 2010, 10:52:59 PM
Quote from: Quillz on October 28, 2010, 05:20:44 PM
People have said that New York's state route shield is based on its "colonial seal," but I'm not seeing it.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv45%2FNidoking%2FHighway%2520Shields%2Fth_NY-747_5a.jpg&hash=ac1db3e843692c7b10e249d2d032122919005f2c) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v45/Nidoking/Highway%20Shields/?action=view&current=NY-747_5a.jpg)

Can someone post the colonial seal? I've looked at the state flag and the symbol on the flag looks nothing like the shape used for the shields.

Last I heard, it was what you got if you draw an approximate outline around the illustration inside the state seal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Seal_of_New_York.svg

VERY approximate.

And for whoever said they had never seen MASS-US, it's on this page:  http://www.maroads.com  The one shown on the page is gone now.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Hot Rod Hootenanny on October 28, 2010, 10:54:41 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on October 28, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
This thread is crying out for a link: http://www.routemarkers.com/states/

Maine and Louisiana shields need updating...

When's the last time anyone spoke to James Lin? That webpage hasn't been updated in 3 years.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on October 28, 2010, 10:52:59 PM

And for whoever said they had never seen MASS-US, it's on this page:  http://www.maroads.com  The one shown on the page is gone now.

that page has few images, and about 75 links - most of them hardcore devotees of the Cult of 404.  Having clicked through some, I do not feel much desire to click through the rest.

Can you please give me an exact direct link to the MASS-US shield you refer to?  thanks!
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Alps on October 28, 2010, 11:10:22 PM
Quote from: Adam Smith on October 28, 2010, 10:54:41 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on October 28, 2010, 06:17:26 PM
This thread is crying out for a link: http://www.routemarkers.com/states/

Maine and Louisiana shields need updating...

When's the last time anyone spoke to James Lin? That webpage hasn't been updated in 3 years.
But it has the new South Carolina shield.  Gotta wonder.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 11:13:17 PM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on October 28, 2010, 11:10:22 PM

But it has the new South Carolina shield.  Gotta wonder.

that shield is a 2007 creation, no?  so the dates line up.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Alps on October 28, 2010, 11:19:49 PM
Oh crap, that means... I'm getting old!!!  :-o
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Quillz on October 28, 2010, 11:36:41 PM
Does anyone know if the states that don't have a custom state route shield but rather use the default (I think there are only four or so) once had a unique state shield, or have they always used the bog standard?
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Scott5114 on October 29, 2010, 12:15:24 AM
I am pretty sure only Kentucky and New Jersey have always used the circle.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Brandon on October 29, 2010, 10:30:59 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on October 29, 2010, 12:15:24 AM
I am pretty sure only Kentucky and New Jersey have always used the circle.

IIRC, Iowa has as well.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: agentsteel53 on October 29, 2010, 10:34:46 AM
Quote from: Brandon on October 29, 2010, 10:30:59 AM

IIRC, Iowa has as well.

according to some early 1920s maps, when Iowa was still painting highway shields onto telephone poles they used a state outline with a number on it.  But any shields made of metal and independently mounted were indeed all circles starting in 1926.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Roadsign199qc on October 29, 2010, 12:03:32 PM
And in Canada, Québec has always used cutouts.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: SidS1045 on October 29, 2010, 10:43:17 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on October 28, 2010, 11:01:22 PM
Quote from: SidS1045 on October 28, 2010, 10:52:59 PM

And for whoever said they had never seen MASS-US, it's on this page:  http://www.maroads.com  The one shown on the page is gone now.

that page has few images, and about 75 links - most of them hardcore devotees of the Cult of 404.  Having clicked through some, I do not feel much desire to click through the rest.

Can you please give me an exact direct link to the MASS-US shield you refer to?  thanks!

The method used to code that page preclues a direct link to the picture of the shield, however the picture is still on the home page, on the right side near the top, to the right of the site proprietor's proposed shield for Massachusetts roads.  (When I said the shield was gone, I meant it's gone in real life...not gone from the page.)

And yes, the site has not been kept up.  I stopped counting after about ten dead links.
Title: Re: State shapes on highway signs
Post by: Alps on October 29, 2010, 11:48:32 PM
NJ's circle was more intricate early on.  In the 1920's, it in fact used the state outline with a black band across the middle and reverse color numerals in the band, and only after 1929 was the circle introduced.

The Mass. US shield on maroads.com is not an old one by any means - it was an experiment by the MDC sometime within the past 30 years to try to recreate the old style.  The dimensions are all off, and they gave up with two 3's and I believe one other shield somewhere.  One of the 3s was still around EB past the JFK bridge when I was up there through 2006.