Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[jakeroot]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

The article shows an image and video depicting a double left turn with the FYA, which doesn't appear to have been there previously. Looking at Google Maps/Street View, I didn't see the dual left turns in either (what could be dual lefts appearing to have been marked as a buffer and future turn lane). There are also wider medians at the intersection that are at least a lane's width wide.

If all that is the case, then removing FYA might be the right call for that intersection. I would have concerns with a dual FYA when you also have a wide median. For this intersection, it appears a driver in the outside left turn lane might have to be looking over a distance of 4-5 lanes left to see gaps in the two lanes of opposing through traffic. I would imagine the outside left turn lane could have sight distance issues in seeing gaps when there are multiple cars queued in the opposing turn lanes. That seems like it could be a contributing factor to the crash issues.

There is a possibility that everything you said is true. Even being a proponent of dual permissive turns, I will concede that they don't work everywhere. But I'm not sure they've been installed long enough to get a realisitic picture of how well they function. A local jurisdiction near me saw an increase in collisions the first year following several FYA installations, but a drop-off after that to lower than pre-FYA collision levels. That's two years worth of data. Fort Worth is going off of a few weeks. That's ridiculous.

[SignBridge]

FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

[jakeroot]

FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words!

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

[SignBridge]

Fightin' words? No problem jakeroot. LOL Plenty of room on this board for healthy differences in traffic management theory. It's all good.

[jeffandnicole]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.

[cl94]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.

Looking at it myself, I think it's more due to them installing a dual permissive at the same time. With the median, can't see oncoming vehicles. That's why dual permissives are generally not used in most of the country.

[jakeroot]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.

Looking at it myself, I think it's more due to them installing a dual permissive at the same time. With the median, can't see oncoming vehicles. That's why dual permissives are generally not used in most of the country.

The medians need to be between the left turn and through lanes, not between the left turn and opposite through lanes (as is often the case, and is the case here as well). The visibility from the stop line (where people sometimes wait, like the truck in the Star Telegram video) is much better when the left turns are offset. Most of Tucson's double lefts have a sizeable painted median between the left and through lanes, to ensure good visibility in the event that the oncoming left turn lanes are full of cars.

One thing that I wish this country would do (yet I've only seen it done once), is paint "waiting lines" in the intersection (for both single and double lefts, where applicable). I feel if we painted some sharks teeth out in the middle of the intersection, or wherever visibility is best, people wouldn't blindly wait at the stop line and fly out into the intersection the second they think it's clear. I see that a lot around here (people really don't like waiting in the intersection in western Washington, minus Seattle); the second they think it's clear, they floor it through the intersection. If they had pulled forward, they would have had much better visibility, and nowhere near as much intersection to clear.

[roadfro]

FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words!

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).

[mrsman]

FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words!

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).

I could see how the difficulty of negotiating the turn can be a problem.  I (and many others) have a learned (correctly or incorrectly) way of negotiating a permitted left turn (of any type) of advancing to the middle of the intersection and waiting for a gap in traffic before turning and then turning at the end of the cycle (yellow light) if there is no earlier gap.  It becomes difficult to do that in a dual left turn if there aren't any wait lines in the intersection, unless the left turn were a lagging left turn.  (In that case, the gap at the end of the cycle coincides with the protected phase so no problem.)

The one permitted double left that I regularly encounter (at US 29 and NH Ave in Silver Spring discussed in another thread) is at an on-ramp to a type of parclo b4 (not the standard 6 ramp, but a 7 ramp version and this is the only left turn from street to freeway onramp).  There is no full intersection over here and there is no traffic of any kind coming from the right when making the left turn, so advancing to the middle is simply unnecessary.  MD is not Tucson so this situation is very rare, but it works here because of several factors:  FRA left turn where everyone has to stop before turning during the permitted phase, no traffic coming from the right, no opposing left turn, great visibility, low volume of left turns at most hours, except for rush hour.

There is another double left that I used to encounter in Downtown LA at 5th Street and Central - but it was very odd.  Left turn + an option lane to turn left from Central to 5th (one-way only), but in that case the left turn was the favored movement.  No signal and opposing traffic faced a stop sign.  You can see this at old streetview photos of the intersection.  It has since been converted to a standard signal with a dual protected=only left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0415444,-118.2397813,3a,75y,344.17h,82.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZU4D9wspqbsso9PhNOlBIA!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

[SectorZ]

https://goo.gl/maps/dvJR1XLmdU92

This one here had an FYA from the time Massachusetts starting putting them in, but in the past week, it disappeared and is now just a green/yellow/red arrow situation. First FYA I've seen disappear. For 20 years before it was an FYA, it was a standard green arrow to green ball.

[SignBridge]

Might have been a little too modern and radical for Massachusetts drivers. 

[plain]

FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words!

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).

I could see how the difficulty of negotiating the turn can be a problem.  I (and many others) have a learned (correctly or incorrectly) way of negotiating a permitted left turn (of any type) of advancing to the middle of the intersection and waiting for a gap in traffic before turning and then turning at the end of the cycle (yellow light) if there is no earlier gap.  It becomes difficult to do that in a dual left turn if there aren't any wait lines in the intersection, unless the left turn were a lagging left turn.  (In that case, the gap at the end of the cycle coincides with the protected phase so no problem.)

The one permitted double left that I regularly encounter (at US 29 and NH Ave in Silver Spring discussed in another thread) is at an on-ramp to a type of parclo b4 (not the standard 6 ramp, but a 7 ramp version and this is the only left turn from street to freeway onramp).  There is no full intersection over here and there is no traffic of any kind coming from the right when making the left turn, so advancing to the middle is simply unnecessary.  MD is not Tucson so this situation is very rare, but it works here because of several factors:  FRA left turn where everyone has to stop before turning during the permitted phase, no traffic coming from the right, no opposing left turn, great visibility, low volume of left turns at most hours, except for rush hour.

There is another double left that I used to encounter in Downtown LA at 5th Street and Central - but it was very odd.  Left turn + an option lane to turn left from Central to 5th (one-way only), but in that case the left turn was the favored movement.  No signal and opposing traffic faced a stop sign.  You can see this at old streetview photos of the intersection.  It has since been converted to a standard signal with a dual protected=only left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0415444,-118.2397813,3a,75y,344.17h,82.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZU4D9wspqbsso9PhNOlBIA!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Saw this a few minutes ago while playing around on Google Maps...
Not a FYA but dual doghouses instead, which is just as dumb smdh. And in Alabama no less

https://goo.gl/maps/GVH14jWSgRt

[cl94]

I've seen a few double doghouses in my travels. Can't remember where in New York for the life of me, as permissive double lefts are basically unheard of in NY and they'll usually only give one right turn arrow even if there are 2 lanes. In the case of split-phasing where there are double turn lanes, there is usually at least one all-arrow face. However, there are a ton of twin four-head left turn signals on Long Island.

There are a few double doghouses around Columbus, Ohio, such as this one at Easton. Until the FYA, Ohio only used doghouses for protected-permissive movements, so this was the only option if there was to be the possibility of an arrow for each lane.

[SignBridge]

That double left-arrow 4-stack in the above link is coming out of the Roosevelt Field Mall onto Old Country Rd. in Carle Place. BTW, as you can see Old Country Rd. is about 8 lanes wide in that area. LOL We've come a long way on Long Island. Also in that photo there are new poles and wires in place for new signals about to be installed. There was a recent complete rebuilding of many signals along Old Country Rd. in the Carle Place-Westbury area.

Another interesting Long Island intersection is in Syosset at South Oyster Bay Rd. and the north service rd. of the L.I. Expwy. (I-495) where northbound there is a double "side-by-side" which is an alternative to the traditional doghouse.

The signals at both locations were erected by the Nassau County DPW.

[cl94]

That double left-arrow 4-stack in the above link is coming out of the Roosevelt Field Mall onto Old Country Rd. in Carle Place. BTW, as you can see Old Country Rd. is about 8 lanes wide in that area. LOL We've come a long way on Long Island. Also in that photo there are new poles and wires in place for new signals about to be installed. There was a recent complete rebuilding of many signals along Old Country Rd. in the Carle Place-Westbury area.

Another interesting Long Island intersection is in Syosset at South Oyster Bay Rd. and the north service rd. of the L.I. Expwy. (I-495) where northbound there is a double "side-by-side" which is an alternative to the traditional doghouse.

The signals at both locations were erected by the Nassau County DPW.

I knew I had seen a double side-by-side somewhere on the Island. Couldn't remember where.

But looking at GSV from a few weeks later, the new signals on Old Country Rd are exactly like the old ones, except the 5-stacks are now side-by-sides. Why Region 10 and NCDPW love those side-by-sides so much is beyond me - they're not used anywhere else in the country that I've seen.

[SignBridge]

Cl94, as a Long Island resident, I kind of like the side-by-side arrangement 'cause it's visually logical and intuitive. But there was nothing wrong with 4 and 5-stacks either. I don't know specifically why NCDPW has converted them.

But I can tell you Nassau County has also done some other strange things on this Old Country Rd. project. Like only installing 2 heads in each direction at most locations in Westbury, unlike every other project in recent years where they've had 3 heads for each approach on four-lane sections of county roads.   They also still use mostly 8-inch heads for the intersecting roads, instead of just using all 12-inch heads in new installations.

[RestrictOnTheHanger]

A triple side by side on LI, southbound Indian Head Rd (Suffolk CR14) at Jericho Tpk (NY25)

https://goo.gl/maps/8Pqd5FRBoCS2

This approach is one left turn lane, one thru lane, and 2 right turn lanes.

The signal setup was recently replaced but nearly identical to the old one.

The 2 signals on the right could have been FYAs with an additional thru signal. In fact the NY25 approaches would do well with FYAs there due to the geometry and signal sequence.

[Revive 755]

There are a couple locations with side by side doghouses in St. Louis, Missouri:

* Eastbound Landsdowne Avenue at Wabash Avenue

* Northbound Skinker Boulevard at Forest Park Parkway

[jakeroot]

Is there a difference between "side by side" and "doghouse"? I see that, in most NY arrangements, the red is above the other two orbs (versus the typical doghouse arrangement with the red centred above the orbs and arrows). I primarily see this setup in other areas of the Northeast and in Colorado.

In other words, are the terms differentiated by the placement of the red orb?

[cl94]

Is there a difference between "side by side" and "doghouse"? I see that, in most NY arrangements, the red is above the other two orbs (versus the typical doghouse arrangement with the red centred above the orbs and arrows). I primarily see this setup in other areas of the Northeast and in Colorado.

In other words, are the terms differentiated by the placement of the red orb?

Yes. Most of the country (including most of New York and the rest of the northeast, for that matter) uses the "standard" doghouse. The "side by side" is the one with the red ball over the other balls instead of centered. That's the setup on Long Island and in Colorado.

[signalman]

The "side by side" is the one with the red ball over the other balls instead of centered. That's the setup on Long Island and in Colorado.

West Virginia belongs on that list as well.

[SignBridge]

Between the two, I prefer the S-B-S. It's neater looking, and more logical. On the other hand, I like traditional 4 and 5 stack heads too and prefer them in some installations, especially post or pole mounted heads.

[US 89]

In UT, they only use the one with the red ball centered. That's the one I prefer because I'm used to it and there's something about the asymetrical design of the side by side version that annoys me.

[wxfree]

Today I drove into Fort Worth and found that FYA signals are being used without the sign.  The FYA is now familiar, and is so intuitive that at least one big city no longer thinks it needs to be explained.  I never saw the older, left turn yield on green, signals unsigned.  I agree that the new arrangement is more intuitive.  It'll be interesting to note whether other places start unsigning them.

For reference, I noticed this on city streets.  I didn't notice whether the TxDOT roads were the same.

[jakeroot]

^^^
In my area, most agencies still utilise the "YIELD ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW" sign. Some even use the modified "RIGHT TURN YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW".

Three agencies in my area do not utilise the white guidance sign. Seattle, Tacoma, and Pierce County. Maybe others that I haven't taken notice of.