The burbs

[kphoger]

Is it fair to say that people who live anywhere near L.A. just simply don't understand the concept of a suburb?

If the locale has an actual downtown area unto itself, then let it be a distinct suburb. If not, then let it be part of something else. Bel Aire, KS, and Carol Stream, IL: I'm looking at you.

So each borough of NYC is at least one suburb if not several? And then there is NJ where you have towns with downtowns mixed with large townships without a downtown. What's Cherry Hill? Haddonfield to the southwest, Voorhees to the south, Moorestown to the northeast, Pennsauken to the Northwest are all suburbs by your definition. Is it supposed to annex or be annexed by one of them or be split between them or something?

No, they're all part of New York City.  My post was not intended to break up towns/cities which have more than one central business district, but rather to eliminate towns that have no central business district.

[bzakharin]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

[NE2]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

A suburban enclave?

[TheStranger]

Is it fair to say that people who live anywhere near L.A. just simply don't understand the concept of a suburb?

Another way of looking at it: the Bay Area and metro Los Angeles are set up in such a way that the core downtowns of the largest cities are not the only obvious job centers in the region.

[bandit957]

And there's places that are incorporated as cities but are actually rural in character. For instance, Ryland Heights, Ky. It became its own city because it's actually rural, not suburban. It incorporated so they could pass their own zoning rules to stop suburban development.

[kkt]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

How big does a business district have to be before it's a downtown?  Does a 7-11 and a Starbucks make a town?

[PHLBOS]

What... this isn't a movie thread? 

[DTComposer]

Is it fair to say that people who live anywhere near L.A. just simply don't understand the concept of a suburb?

I wouldn't say that - in fact, L.A. has pretty much the entire gamut:

-Older cities with established retail/commercial downtowns that started as satellite cities and have since become absorbed into the urban core: Pasadena, Long Beach, Santa Monica, Glendale, Santa Ana, etc.

-Older, smaller cities that are primarily residential, or may have small downtowns/commercial districts, but generally have functioned as suburbs from the beginning: Inglewood, South Pasadena, Huntington Park, etc.

-Cities that developed from 1950-2000 that, though they may have significant retail/commercial districts, lack a true downtown and fall under the current most common definition of suburbs: La Mirada, Lakewood, Garden Grove, Diamond Bar, etc.

-Same as above in terms of function, but within the city of Los Angeles: most of the San Fernando Valley districts.

-Newer cities with a retail/commercial presence that rivals (even surpasses) some of the older, "traditional" cities, but without a true downtown, who would otherwise be considered a suburb: Irvine, Carson, etc.

-Satellite cities: Thousand Oaks, Santa Clarita, etc.

What L.A. lacks is a singular dominant downtown retail/commercial/cultural core (or at least, one proportionate to the size of the city/metro area), but it could be argued that, with downtown, Hollywood, Miracle Mile, Westwood, Century City, etc., and perhaps up to Universal City, there is a corridor that functions not unlike Manhattan (admittedly a very diluted/less dense version).

[TheStranger]

Is it fair to say that people who live anywhere near L.A. just simply don't understand the concept of a suburb?

I wouldn't say that - in fact, L.A. has pretty much the entire gamut:

Palmdale and Lancaster would be more "exurbs" than even satellite cities, correct?  (The distance from Palmdale to Sylmar is about as long as it is from the south edge of San Francisco to the north edge of San Jose)

[bing101]

What about Tracy, CA that city tends to be mentioned as an exburb of Oakland and San Jose. It's Basically the Palmdale of the Bay area but its in the San Joaquin Valley.

[Zeffy]

So here's an interesting question - is Camden a suburb? Philadelphia is less than 5 miles from it, and surely it has influenced the growth of Camden in some ways. The only problem is no one wants to live in Camden (yet) whereas people will still live in Philadelphia, which is usually the opposite (people want to live in the suburbs and not the city), so I have to think Camden isn't a suburb of Philadelphia.

[bzakharin]

So here's an interesting question - is Camden a suburb? Philadelphia is less than 5 miles from it, and surely it has influenced the growth of Camden in some ways. The only problem is no one wants to live in Camden (yet) whereas people will still live in Philadelphia, which is usually the opposite (people want to live in the suburbs and not the city), so I have to think Camden isn't a suburb of Philadelphia.

I think in the local mindset, just about any part of NJ is a suburb of either New York or Philadelphia. Newark has the same problem as Camden, though to a smaller degree. People still want to live in New York, but Newark residents are moving to "The Oranges", but people certainly think of Newark as a suburb of New York.

[kphoger]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

A suburban enclave?

Something that should be divided up into those other towns. I don't care if Carol Stream, IL, had a million people in it: I say divide it up between Wheaton and Glendale Heights.

[TXtoNJ]

So here's an interesting question - is Camden a suburb? Philadelphia is less than 5 miles from it, and surely it has influenced the growth of Camden in some ways. The only problem is no one wants to live in Camden (yet) whereas people will still live in Philadelphia, which is usually the opposite (people want to live in the suburbs and not the city), so I have to think Camden isn't a suburb of Philadelphia.

Camden is a neighborhood of Philly, as much as no one wants to recognize or admit it.

[PHLBOS]

So here's an interesting question - is Camden a suburb? Philadelphia is less than 5 miles from it, and surely it has influenced the growth of Camden in some ways. The only problem is no one wants to live in Camden (yet) whereas people will still live in Philadelphia, which is usually the opposite (people want to live in the suburbs and not the city), so I have to think Camden isn't a suburb of Philadelphia.

Camden is a neighborhood of Philly, as much as no one wants to recognize or admit it.

WHAT????  Camden, New Jersey isn't even in the same state as Philly.  It's a separate city in and of itself.  The fact that it's in close proximity to Philadelphia (separated only by the Delaware River) is coincidental.

Is it considered part of the Metropolitan Philadelphia area, yes.
Is it part of the City of (or County of) Philadelphia, no.

[TXtoNJ]

So here's an interesting question - is Camden a suburb? Philadelphia is less than 5 miles from it, and surely it has influenced the growth of Camden in some ways. The only problem is no one wants to live in Camden (yet) whereas people will still live in Philadelphia, which is usually the opposite (people want to live in the suburbs and not the city), so I have to think Camden isn't a suburb of Philadelphia.

Camden is a neighborhood of Philly, as much as no one wants to recognize or admit it.

WHAT????  Camden, New Jersey isn't even in the same state as Philly.  It's a separate city in and of itself.  The fact that it's in close proximity to Philadelphia (separated only by the Delaware River) is coincidental.

Is it considered part of the Metropolitan Philadelphia area, yes.
Is it part of the City of (or County of) Philadelphia, no.

Demonstrating my point exactly.

Camden behaves like a very run-down neighborhood of Philadelphia that is coincidentally in another state. It is/was as dense as central Philly, has an entire transportation infrastructure based either on connections with Philly or aggregating South Jersey connections to funnel into Philly, and has no economic base other than government, tourism draws from Philadelphia, and educational investments arising from its population density, which arose because of its proximity to Philadelphia.

When it comes to population dynamics, I've noticed that state lines mean almost nothing in the Northeast Megalopolis, while people tend to think they mean a lot.

[freebrickproductions]

Madison, AL is probably the closest thing to a suburb in Huntsville because Huntsville has annexed a lot of land around the city to the point where Madison is now encapsulated in Huntsville. There are also a couple of unincorporated towns (Brownsboro and Ryland) that probably count as suburbs too.
Birmingham, AL definitely has several suburbs around it, all of which are better off than the city itself.

[ET21]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

How big does a business district have to be before it's a downtown?  Does a 7-11 and a Starbucks make a town?

That honestly depends on the town geography and personal opinion. My opinions for some example cities:

I live in DeKalb for school. Technically downtown (in my view) is located between 1st (West) and 7th (East) streets with maybe Pine St (North). The southern border isn't really clearcut, you have businesses that stretch along the tracks with residential starting to take over. That's the historic district. But our businesses stretch along IL-38 and northward along IL-23 with residential pockets mixed in.

I then look at a town like Big Rock, Illinois along US 30 which has a gas station, a few garages, a minor industry, and a couple shops. I can't really decipher a downtown because there's really no central point. Big Rock's downtown would be basically the entire US 30 stretch in the city limits because that's their business district.

Finally I go back to my hometown of Oak Lawn, Illinois a suburb of Chicago. Downtown Oak Lawn in my view is between Central Ave and Cicero Ave along 95th street. Some would argue that you could see it extend maybe to Kostner Ave due to the hospital complex. But in that stretch, you have the library, your emergency services, and city hall. There are some older style buildings mixed now with 4-5 story condo buildings which were just recently built.

So you could really say that a "downtown" could be just the majority vote of people's opinions along with some sort of geography and location of city services.

[bandit957]

I think downtown is the point where the city was founded, and grew from there. If the city was built on a single residential development, it could be the location of a model home.

[Scott5114]

I don't understand the difference between a suburb and a distinct town. Either that or I don't understand how one can be both.

In my mind, a suburb is a town that's close to a major city and whose identity and existence are tied to that city.

So if "distinct" means a separate political entity, then all suburbs are distinct towns as I understand the word. If it's not a separate political entity, then I just call it a neighborhood.

But if "distinct" means culturally and economically separate, then no distinct towns are suburbs. They're just... towns.

You might consider Norman, Oklahoma an example of a town that is both a town and a suburb.

Norman existed as the county seat of Cleveland County before the concept of a suburb was established. Its economic anchor was the University of Oklahoma.

As the concept of the suburb became more well defined, Norman began to take on more suburban qualities, especially after I-35 was built and it became easy to commute from Norman to Oklahoma City.

Now, you have a city that is a mixture of both. The West Side of Norman (I'd draw the line at about Berry Road or so and increasing the further west you go) is very suburban and most of the people living there probably commute to Oklahoma City. The central parts and the East Side are more geared toward supporting the university (cheap student housing, etc.) and have more of a distinct identity. Norman has its own central business district, centered around the county courthouse, that includes things like law and accounting firms, as well as independent restaurants and small retail shops.

So Norman is kind of a mixture of both. You can definitely live life without ever really needing to get out of town (I hardly ever leave town except for work, and I don't commute to Oklahoma City, but rather McClain County), but if you need anything in Oklahoma City, it's right there.

[Scott5114]

ok, but what do you call a large town without a downtown surrounded by smaller towns that do have downtowns?

How big does a business district have to be before it's a downtown?  Does a 7-11 and a Starbucks make a town?

In Oklahoma, the sure sign of a healthy small town is a Sonic Drive-In, at least one gas station (often with a mom & pop restaurant inside) and a Dollar General. You know you've made it big when you get a second fast-food restaurant.

[kphoger]

I don't understand the difference between a suburb and a distinct town. Either that or I don't understand how one can be both.

In my mind, a suburb is a town that's close to a major city and whose identity and existence are tied to that city.

So if "distinct" means a separate political entity, then all suburbs are distinct towns as I understand the word. If it's not a separate political entity, then I just call it a neighborhood.

But if "distinct" means culturally and economically separate, then no distinct towns are suburbs. They're just... towns.

You might consider Norman, Oklahoma an example of a town that is both a town and a suburb.

Norman existed as the county seat of Cleveland County before the concept of a suburb was established. Its economic anchor was the University of Oklahoma.

As the concept of the suburb became more well defined, Norman began to take on more suburban qualities, especially after I-35 was built and it became easy to commute from Norman to Oklahoma City.

Now, you have a city that is a mixture of both. The West Side of Norman (I'd draw the line at about Berry Road or so and increasing the further west you go) is very suburban and most of the people living there probably commute to Oklahoma City. The central parts and the East Side are more geared toward supporting the university (cheap student housing, etc.) and have more of a distinct identity. Norman has its own central business district, centered around the county courthouse, that includes things like law and accounting firms, as well as independent restaurants and small retail shops.

So Norman is kind of a mixture of both. You can definitely live life without ever really needing to get out of town (I hardly ever leave town except for work, and I don't commute to Oklahoma City, but rather McClain County), but if you need anything in Oklahoma City, it's right there.

Joliet, IL, is similar.  Some people there never travel to Chicago.  Others go to Chicago almost every day.