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Daylight Saving Time

Started by english si, March 08, 2015, 10:46:03 AM

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wxfree

I love the extended evening daylight.  I'm fine with darker mornings.  My mornings are indoors where I can turn on lights.  Driving in the dark doesn't bother me, especially in town where you're unlikely to hit a deer.  I hate the dark-at-5:30 Christmas season; it makes me sad.  I like later light because later in the day is when I'm likely to be outside.

I never notice when the sun reaches its highest point; the time when that happens has no effect on me.  What makes a difference to me is whether it gets dark at 5:30 or at 9:30.  Of course, my southerly location means the length of daylight doesn't change as drastically as it does closer to the poles, so I might think differently if faced with 10 am sunrise or 11 pm sunset.
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bandit957

Quote from: 1995hoo on March 09, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
Florida being split was one of the issues in the 2000 election–some networks "called" Florida while polls in the Panhandle were still open.

There was at least one year (1992, I think) when Indiana was called while the polls in the Central Time Zone (mostly around Gary) were still open. A lot of folks in Gary didn't vote, as a result.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

kkt

Quote from: cl94 on March 08, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I know a lot of people don't like this, but I wouldn't mind if DST stuck around all year. Yeah, it would get light later in the morning, but the fact that the sun is still high in the sky makes me happy.

What?  How?  If it was DST year-round here, in the winter it would still be pitch dark by 8:00 AM when most people are either at work or on their way.

Clocks are not natural, they are works of people and there's nothing wrong with adjusting them to suit people's natural tendency to get up about dawn.

roadman65

Quote from: cabiness42 on March 09, 2015, 12:23:32 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 08, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I know a lot of people don't like this, but I wouldn't mind if DST stuck around all year. Yeah, it would get light later in the morning, but the fact that the sun is still high in the sky makes me happy.

Getting light later in the morning is great, if you don't care at all about millions of kids at higher risk for accidents and attacks while waiting for school buses in the dark.  But that's insignificant compared to adults wanting more daylight in the evening.
Then change the school sessions then.

BTW Daylight or Standard time kids in Orlando go to school in the dark!
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

texaskdog

Quote from: kkt on March 09, 2015, 01:03:09 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 08, 2015, 05:41:51 PM
I know a lot of people don't like this, but I wouldn't mind if DST stuck around all year. Yeah, it would get light later in the morning, but the fact that the sun is still high in the sky makes me happy.

What?  How?  If it was DST year-round here, in the winter it would still be pitch dark by 8:00 AM when most people are either at work or on their way.

Clocks are not natural, they are works of people and there's nothing wrong with adjusting them to suit people's natural tendency to get up about dawn.


Year round DST...I'd even say 2 hours of it.   I hate winter where even though it's not cold here in Austin we can't go hiking after work all winter.

hbelkins

What really stinks is being on the eastern edge of a time zone during standard time. If it's more or less dark by 5:30 p.m. in Elizabethtown or Monticello, Ky., that means it's more or less dark by 4:30 p.m. in Leitchfield or Albany.

Who really cares if the time is off "normal" or the sun isn't directly overhead at noon? I don't.

Quote from: cabiness42 on March 09, 2015, 12:23:32 PM

Getting light later in the morning is great, if you don't care at all about millions of kids at higher risk for accidents and attacks while waiting for school buses in the dark.  But that's insignificant compared to adults wanting more daylight in the evening.

Isn't this OMG FEAR!!!! instead of a real legitimate safety concern?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

english si

Quote from: hbelkins on March 09, 2015, 04:38:11 PMIsn't this OMG FEAR!!!! instead of a real legitimate safety concern?
I find that the lighter later bunch are worse at this sort of fearmongering.

For instance, year round summer time in the UK is often argued as 'kids shouldn't have to walk home in the dark' ignoring that would have to walk to school in the dark, and don't typically have to walk home in the dark either.

DeaconG

Quote from: oscar on March 09, 2015, 11:52:32 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2015, 11:31:24 AM
Is this a good idea, or should states (with possible exception for very large states like Alaska and Texas) be on one time zone?

Even huge Alaska is mostly in one time zone, except for far western Alaska in the Aleutian time zone, which has almost no population (Dutch Harbor and Nome are on Alaska time).  Alaska used to have four time zones (one covering only a few hundred people in the Yakutat part of the southeastern panhandle), so the current situation is a big improvement.

The bigger question is, why shouldn't states split between time zones consider realignments of their state lines, such as for example adding Pensacola and other Central Time parts of Florida to Alabama? 

Hey, the Florida panhandle has always been known as LA-Lower Alabama...and if you look at American history at one time it WAS projected to be part of Alabama, IIRC...
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SSOWorld

Much of US Central Time is at the equivalent of Canadian and longitudinal Eastern time.  The US Eastern time is shifted east to accomodate all of the east coast (some of which would be in Atlantic time ordinarily)
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6a


Quote from: SSOWorld on March 09, 2015, 08:38:18 PM
Much of US Central Time is at the equivalent of Canadian and longitudinal Eastern time.  The US Eastern time is shifted east to accomodate all of the east coast (some of which would be in Atlantic time ordinarily)

This is the quirk of US geography. The western 2/3 of the eastern time zone is behind solar noon, obviously getting progressively worse going west, as the poster citing Cincinnati shows. The problem lies with New York City, DC, and the business world in general.  Yes, Cincinnati and a good chunk of the U.S. Eastern time zone should be shifted but that will never happen, but I can't imagine Cincinnati shifting time zones without Columbus and Cleveland shouting out the fact they're still on NYC time. The U.S. operates on two time zones, with allowances for the others as needed.

formulanone

Quote from: DeaconG on March 09, 2015, 07:21:36 PM
Quote from: oscar on March 09, 2015, 11:52:32 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2015, 11:31:24 AM
Is this a good idea, or should states (with possible exception for very large states like Alaska and Texas) be on one time zone?

Even huge Alaska is mostly in one time zone, except for far western Alaska in the Aleutian time zone, which has almost no population (Dutch Harbor and Nome are on Alaska time).  Alaska used to have four time zones (one covering only a few hundred people in the Yakutat part of the southeastern panhandle), so the current situation is a big improvement.

The bigger question is, why shouldn't states split between time zones consider realignments of their state lines, such as for example adding Pensacola and other Central Time parts of Florida to Alabama? 

Hey, the Florida panhandle has always been known as LA-Lower Alabama...and if you look at American history at one time it WAS projected to be part of Alabama, IIRC...

Things might change in Alabama...which will be somewhat awkward. We'll stay forward, but not back, effectively putting it in Eastern Time during late-autumn and winter, and then "back" to Central in spring, summer, and early-autumn. I don't think it's terribly fair to Florida's Panhandle between the Appalachicola River and the border with Alabama...it will be a bit of an hourly "exclave" for five months out of the year.

I live close to the Tennessee border, so that just adds a little confusion if I go north, but I guess they deal with it.

vdeane

I wouldn't be surprised if much of the complaining about DST comes from early birds who don't understand that "but you can just get up earlier if you want your daylight" isn't a valid argument.  Personally, as someone who would sleep in to 11 every day if given the chance, I welcome the "extra" daylight.

I don't understand the obsession some people have with solar noon being at a time other than 12:00.  Seriously, who cares?  We haven't used sundials in centuries.

It doesn't take me long to recover from the shift at all, especially since I don't actually lose an hour of sleep; since I don't have a set time I wake up at outside of work days, I just take the hour from being awake instead.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

What makes any more sense than solar noon being roughly 12:00? We keep time based on the passage of the sun across the sky; the midpoint of our timekeeping system ought to correlate to the midpoint of the sun's path.

Would it make sense to have 6:00 PM be solar noon, because we don't use sundials anymore?
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KEVIN_224

I was told that Phenix City, AL, which is just west of Columbus, GA, basically observes Eastern time, despite being in the Central Time Zone.

Does the Eastern Time Zone have a true "center"? Something like 75 degrees west? I'm a little past 72 degrees west here in central Connecticut.

Duke87

Quote from: kphoger on March 09, 2015, 10:41:14 PM
What makes any more sense than solar noon being roughly 12:00? We keep time based on the passage of the sun across the sky; the midpoint of our timekeeping system ought to correlate to the midpoint of the sun's path.

Objectively, scientifically... nothing.

For practical human purposes... well, everyone's schedule is different. Yes, waking up in the dark sucks, but I'm rarely out of bed before 9 AM so this is never a problem for me. I would much rather have more sunlight during hours when I am actually awake as opposed to snoozing through it. So, put me in the "we should have DST year round" camp.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

bandit957

Quote from: 6a on March 09, 2015, 09:24:48 PM
This is the quirk of US geography. The western 2/3 of the eastern time zone is behind solar noon, obviously getting progressively worse going west, as the poster citing Cincinnati shows. The problem lies with New York City, DC, and the business world in general.

Cincinnati is bad, but Louisville and Indianapolis are worse, and TERRE HAUTE is worst of all!

The Wikipedia article about time in Indiana says the movement to maximize Eastern Daylight Time in that state is whipped up by the state's Big Business community, which wants Indiana synchronized with Wall Street. That makes no sense, because Wall Street is nowhere near Indiana. I'm from very close to Indiana, and the average working-class person in the area has a deep-seated disgust for Wall Street. We couldn't care less what Wall Street wants.

Also, rural farming areas should be as close to natural time as possible. A farmer's day is scheduled along the natural time cycle. With EDT in effect in Indiana, farmers miss activities that are scheduled for late in the evening.
Might as well face it, pooing is cool

6a


Quote from: bandit957 on March 10, 2015, 12:58:25 AM
The Wikipedia article about time in Indiana says the movement to maximize Eastern Daylight Time in that state is whipped up by the state's Big Business community, which wants Indiana synchronized with Wall Street. That makes no sense, because Wall Street is nowhere near Indiana. I'm from very close to Indiana, and the average working-class person in the area has a deep-seated disgust for Wall Street. We couldn't care less what Wall Street wants.

Well, yes, it does make sense, if you're in big business (which I am not, BTW.) This exchange right here highlights the sharp divide in the "average working-class person in the area" and their disgust for Wall Street, and Wall Street itself which considers the area to be "flyover country".

Personally I'm with roadman - set it 1/2 hour off and stop fucking with it.

doorknob60

Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 09, 2015, 11:31:24 AM
Always found it curious that relatively small parts of some states are on a different time zone from the major population centers.  One example I was not aware of is western Kansas, which is on Mountain time, not Central time (the time zone boundary is signed on I-70, which is how I learned that).  Similarly, the western part of the Florida panhandle is on Central time. 

Is this a good idea, or should states (with possible exception for very large states like Alaska and Texas) be on one time zone?
Shouldn't be a requirement. Ontario, OR shouldn't be forced into Pacific Time just because Oregon's population centers are in that time zone. They should be allowed to use the same time zone as nearby Boise, Mountain Time. Having the state line divide the time zone there would be problematic, especially for people in communities near the border like Payette and Fruitland, ID that do business in Ontario (the retail center of this area, partially because no sales tax in Oregon).

slorydn1

#68
I spent my early childhood until 9 years old (through 3rd grade) in the Grand Rapids Michigan area, so the western end of the Eastern Time Zone.
I distinctly remember arriving at school during the winter (so in standard time) with it still being dark with only the hint of orange in the eastern sky-so my entire walk was in the dark. I also remember the oddity of it being even darker in April than in mid winter because of the change to DST.

I also remember falling asleep waiting for the fireworks at the high school baseball field on the 4th of July because it didn't get completely dark until after 10pm and they wouldn't light them off until it was completely dark. That first test shot (you know, the really loud one) was quite the wake up call, lol.

I lived in the suburbs of Chicago (eastern end of Central Time) from the summer between 3rd and 4th grade until I was 21. I am being completely truthful when I say that either way, standard or daylight time really didn't seem to make a difference to me then. The sun would be coming up just as I was leaving for school during the winter, and during the summer with daylight time it was getting dark just before 9. What I really do miss the most about the Central Time Zone either way was the fact that network prime time began at 7pm instead of 8pm, and the "late local news" was at 10pm. I can still remember the deep voice of the announcer on WBBM-TV Channel 2 as he said "Bill Kurtis, Walter Jacobsen, John Coughlin's weather, and Johnny Morris on sports: You are watching THE 10 o'clock news (and the coolest TV news theme song EVER). I could stay up and watch the late news and still be in bed by 10:30, or later on as a teenager go out and hit a party (lol).


Spending my entire adult life in eastern NC has meant a return to Eastern Time, which means the news is late, Monday Night Football quite often becomes Tuesday Morning Football. At least we are far enough east at 77 degrees west that the sunrises/sunsets seem to be closer to what I remember Chicago being like than what Grand Raids was like. As I type this at 6:58am the sky is brightening to the east, my 15 year old is on the bus to school. It really seems to me that being at the eastern edge of a time zone makes any time shifts easier than being at the western edge of a time zone, at least that has been my experience throughout my life.


I lol'd when I read the majority of this thread at the people who were complaining about the loss of sleep. Not out of disrespect, but because I was working night shift when the time change happened so I only had to work 11 hours instead of my normal 12. By a quirk of my 2 week shift cycle I just happen to be  on the shift that always works the short night, and always gets the extra hour of sleep in November as I am on dayshift that weekend. The shift that worked this weekend dayshift always gets screwed out of that hour of sleep in March and always gets stuck working 13 hours in November. I used to be on that shift, so I felt their pain as they came in whining Sunday morning.
Please Note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of any governmental agency, non-governmental agency, quasi-governmental agency or wanna be governmental agency

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1995hoo

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on March 09, 2015, 11:34:32 PM
I was told that Phenix City, AL, which is just west of Columbus, GA, basically observes Eastern time, despite being in the Central Time Zone.

....

They do, even the city government (but not state or federal offices; I suppose it makes sense that state offices would be on the same time as Montgomery). Phenix City is the easternmost town in Alabama and it's directly across the river from Columbus. They simply find it easier to operate on the same time as the much larger city across the state line. (If it's like it used to be, people head over to Columbus constantly for things like buying gas, which used to be substantially cheaper in Georgia. Don't know if that's still the case.)
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texaskdog

Quote from: hbelkins on March 09, 2015, 04:38:11 PM
What really stinks is being on the eastern edge of a time zone during standard time. If it's more or less dark by 5:30 p.m. in Elizabethtown or Monticello, Ky., that means it's more or less dark by 4:30 p.m. in Leitchfield or Albany.

Who really cares if the time is off "normal" or the sun isn't directly overhead at noon? I don't.

Quote from: cabiness42 on March 09, 2015, 12:23:32 PM

Getting light later in the morning is great, if you don't care at all about millions of kids at higher risk for accidents and attacks while waiting for school buses in the dark.  But that's insignificant compared to adults wanting more daylight in the evening.

Isn't this OMG FEAR!!!! instead of a real legitimate safety concern?

I can hear the blades of the helicopter parent spinning

texaskdog

Quote from: bandit957 on March 10, 2015, 12:58:25 AM
Quote from: 6a on March 09, 2015, 09:24:48 PM
.

Also, rural farming areas should be as close to natural time as possible. A farmer's day is scheduled along the natural time cycle.

Then farmers shouldn't care what the artificial time is

Pete from Boston


Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2015, 10:00:51 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if much of the complaining about DST comes from early birds who don't understand that "but you can just get up earlier if you want your daylight" isn't a valid argument.  Personally, as someone who would sleep in to 11 every day if given the chance, I welcome the "extra" daylight.


I wouldn't be surprised if much of the support for DST comes from late risers who don't understand that "but you can just get up later if you want your daylight" isn't a valid argument.  Personally, as someone who has to be at work at the reasonable hour of 8 am, I welcome the "extra" daylight in the morning.

(The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our sun, but in ourselves.)

kphoger

Let's set the clocks eight hours off, so people who work graveyard shift are no longer frustrated by having to sleep during the daylight hours.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

english si

Quote from: vdeane on March 09, 2015, 10:00:51 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if much of the complaining about DST comes from early birds who don't understand that "but you can just get up earlier if you want your daylight" isn't a valid argument.  Personally, as someone who would sleep in to 11 every day if given the chance, I welcome the "extra" daylight.
Quote from: Pete from Boston on March 10, 2015, 08:10:44 AMI wouldn't be surprised if much of the support for DST comes from late risers who don't understand that "but you can just get up later if you want your daylight" isn't a valid argument.  Personally, as someone who has to be at work at the reasonable hour of 8 am, I welcome the "extra" daylight in the morning.
I find that it is mostly the other way around, though I have met some who fit Pete's description.

It's the early risers who don't care about darker mornings as they get up before the sun (~6am solar time) anyway in Spring/Fall, and late risers who need the dawn to help them awake if they want to not be out of sync all day.



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