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Author Topic: The Great Interstate 238 Debate  (Read 83085 times)

agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #100 on: November 27, 2009, 06:23:52 PM »

I also don't care for Agentsteel's suggestion to route CA-120 along the current I-205 because those 13 miles are currently "Chargable Interstate Mileage" and would be lost if the route was "downgraded" to state route status.

it's a renumbering scheme, not a 'split the nose-hairs of vagueries of federal law, just so Arnie can have more money to burn' scheme.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #101 on: November 27, 2009, 06:32:10 PM »

I also don't care for Agentsteel's suggestion to route CA-120 along the current I-205 because those 13 miles are currently "Chargable Interstate Mileage" and would be lost if the route was "downgraded" to state route status.

it's a renumbering scheme, not a 'split the nose-hairs of vagueries of federal law, just so Arnie can have more money to burn' scheme.
I understand that but I'm being realistic.  No state, in their right mind, is going to give back chargeable interstate mileage (turning down Federal highway dollars) for the sake of renumbering.
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agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #102 on: November 27, 2009, 06:32:33 PM »


it's a renumbering scheme, not a 'split the nose-hairs of vagueries of federal law, just so Arnie can have more money to burn' scheme.

speaking of which, the easiest way to solve the I-238 problem is if the Hayward Fault spontaneously eats it.
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agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #103 on: November 27, 2009, 06:33:32 PM »

I'm being realistic.

such a notion is explicitly forbidden in highway renumbering threads!  :sombrero:
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #104 on: November 27, 2009, 06:46:11 PM »


it's a renumbering scheme, not a 'split the nose-hairs of vagueries of federal law, just so Arnie can have more money to burn' scheme.

speaking of which, the easiest way to solve the I-238 problem is if the Hayward Fault spontaneously eats it.
If there's a major quake on the Hayward fault it will probably wipe out most of I-580 from I-238 to I-80 in Oakland.  Then again, damaged/destroyed freeways may be the least of our worries in the event of the "big one".
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #105 on: November 27, 2009, 07:56:29 PM »

I also don't care for Agentsteel's suggestion to route CA-120 along the current I-205 because those 13 miles are currently "Chargable Interstate Mileage" and would be lost if the route was "downgraded" to state route status.
I-120 ? At least there is an I-20 to be it's parent!

I'll get my coat...
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agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #106 on: November 27, 2009, 08:17:08 PM »

If there's a major quake on the Hayward fault it will probably wipe out most of I-580 from I-238 to I-80 in Oakland.  Then again, damaged/destroyed freeways may be the least of our worries in the event of the "big one".

this would never happen if the freeway were US-50 as God intended!
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #107 on: November 28, 2009, 03:59:50 AM »

The frequency of biggish quakes in California will probably prevent the Big One along the San Andreas and its related faults. The Pacific Northwest won't be so lucky.

Here's an alternative to the renumbering:
I-205: Left as is (extend it east on CA 120! ).
I-238: Eliminated.
I-580: Replaces I-238.
I-705: Takes the entirety of the old I-580 route.

Reasoning: I-580 acts as the major Los Angeles-Bay connection. It's also functions more of a x05 than an x80. By routing I-705 along the length of I-580, I-5 now has the direct access to the Bay area it had as I-5W, especially as the route directly serves Oakland and more importantly, the Bay Bridge. This also puts an x05 into the North Bay area and into Richmond. This also gives I-238 an x80 number without shuffling CA 180 around to another route number, which isn't likely to happen, and doesn't return the 'hated' I-480 designation.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #108 on: November 28, 2009, 06:11:06 PM »

I also don't care for Agentsteel's suggestion to route CA-120 along the current I-205 because those 13 miles are currently "Chargable Interstate Mileage" and would be lost if the route was "downgraded" to state route status.

it's a renumbering scheme, not a 'split the nose-hairs of vagueries of federal law, just so Arnie can have more money to burn' scheme.
I understand that but I'm being realistic.  No state, in their right mind, is going to give back chargeable interstate mileage (turning down Federal highway dollars) for the sake of renumbering.

It could still be assigned an unsigned I-number. Works for Tulsa. But then again roadgeeks hate those too.

Honestly the best idea would have been for AASHTO to play hardball and force Caltrans to use I-180 and tell them where they can shove their anti-number-duplication rule. If the choice is between keeping CA-180 and losing out on federal funds for 238, or to make 238 into I-180 and renumber CA-180, do you really think they'd give Fresno's route number history a second thought?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 06:13:44 PM by Scott5114 »
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #109 on: November 28, 2009, 06:24:46 PM »


Honestly the best idea would have been for AASHTO to play hardball and force Caltrans to use I-180 and tell them where they can shove their anti-number-duplication rule. If the choice is between keeping CA-180 and losing out on federal funds for 238, or to make 238 into I-180 and renumber CA-180, do you really think they'd give Fresno's route number history a second thought?

CA-180 could become CA-186 easily, and people would not think much beyond it being a typo.  Screw that 6 foot long road down to the Mexican border at Andrade.  
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 07:10:46 PM by agentsteel53 »
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #110 on: November 30, 2009, 12:35:27 AM »

1)They renumber it Interstate 480.
2)introduce 4 digit numbers, using an oversized shield and name it "2380" or "1080"
3)Or do like what they did with I-210 with CA 57, sign it back as CA 238 but keep part of the Interstate Highway system.There are many unsigned interstates, so I don't see this as something that would be hard to do.




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agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #111 on: November 30, 2009, 12:46:11 AM »

"2380"

when I was first in the east bay in 1998 and discovered I-238, I really did think it was short for "I-2380".  Having seen enough x80s, I figured they ran out of numbers and internally they called it 2380 but didn't bother to sign it as such.

that said, 1180 would be a number that would fit extant three-digit sign designs. 
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #112 on: November 30, 2009, 01:07:28 AM »

Quote
Honestly the best idea would have been for AASHTO to play hardball and force Caltrans to use I-180 and tell them where they can shove their anti-number-duplication rule. If the choice is between keeping CA-180 and losing out on federal funds for 238, or to make 238 into I-180 and renumber CA-180, do you really think they'd give Fresno's route number history a second thought?

It may not be that easy.  Much of Caltrans' design department is headquartered in Fresno, so they may put up a fight about giving "180" to the Bay Area.  (They're probably still bitter about the loss of I-880.)   :angry:

Although.... given Fresno's desire for an interstate freeway, maybe the CA 180 switch could work, if somehow coupled with the upgrade of CA 99 to I-7?  Or maybe just extend I-180 out to Fresno?   ;-)
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #113 on: November 30, 2009, 11:46:01 AM »

Honestly the best idea would have been for AASHTO to play hardball and force Caltrans to use I-180 and tell them where they can shove their anti-number-duplication rule.

Agreed.  Other states (Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, etc) have no problem with duplicating numbers.  Shoot, Illinois has both I-24 and US-24.  Personally, I think duplicating numbers would help, not hurt Caltrans.  I have noticed fewer route shield mistakes in states that duplicate versus states that don't duplicate (yes, I'm looking at you, WisDOT!).
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agentsteel53

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #114 on: November 30, 2009, 12:27:36 PM »

and I am looking at you, Georgia and Florida.  I just know that sometime US-27 will intersect itself in Georgia, as will US-17, US-17, and US-17 in Florida.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #115 on: November 30, 2009, 08:45:14 PM »

I always wondered why there was no I-180 in the Bay Area.  Yea, I say that number needs to be used soon.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #116 on: December 01, 2009, 12:36:52 AM »

Wonder if you can run out of 3di interstates in one state...
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #117 on: December 01, 2009, 05:49:57 AM »

CA has a long way to go to use all it's numbers - the following interstates would need to be added:
I-705
I-108, I-208, I-308, I-408, I-508, I-608, I-708, I-808, I-908
I-310, I-410, I-510, I-610, I-810
I-115, I-315, I-415, I-515, I-615, I-715, I-815, I-915
I-140, I-240, I-340, I-440, I-540, I-640, I-740, I-840, I-940
I-180, I-480
add to this I-9 and that's 43 more 3dis you'd need.

and given you can have I-238, doesn't that mean you'd need 900 3dis to run out?

NY's exhausted all its I-x90s. I-5 in CA is next closest, and after that it's I-40 in NC or something.

Theoretically possible, practically impossible.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #118 on: December 01, 2009, 01:16:49 PM »

CA has a long way to go to use all it's numbers - the following interstates would need to be added:
I-705
I-108, I-208, I-308, I-408, I-508, I-608, I-708, I-808, I-908
I-310, I-410, I-510, I-610, I-810
I-115, I-315, I-415, I-515, I-615, I-715, I-815, I-915
I-140, I-240, I-340, I-440, I-540, I-640, I-740, I-840, I-940
I-180, I-480
add to this I-9 and that's 43 more 3dis you'd need.

and given you can have I-238, doesn't that mean you'd need 900 3dis to run out?

NY's exhausted all its I-x90s. I-5 in CA is next closest, and after that it's I-40 in NC or something.

Theoretically possible, practically impossible.

Maryland has 195, 295, 395, 495, 595 (unsigned), 695, 795, 895...so that's another one that's cutting close.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #119 on: December 01, 2009, 05:10:05 PM »

CA has a long way to go to use all it's numbers - the following interstates would need to be added:
I-705
I-108, I-208, I-308, I-408, I-508, I-608, I-708, I-808, I-908
I-310, I-410, I-510, I-610, I-810
I-115, I-315, I-415, I-515, I-615, I-715, I-815, I-915
I-140, I-240, I-340, I-440, I-540, I-640, I-740, I-840, I-940
I-180, I-480
add to this I-9 and that's 43 more 3dis you'd need.

and given you can have I-238, doesn't that mean you'd need 900 3dis to run out?

NY's exhausted all its I-x90s. I-5 in CA is next closest, and after that it's I-40 in NC or something.

Theoretically possible, practically impossible.
You'll need to add I-910 to your list.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #120 on: December 01, 2009, 06:52:38 PM »

Wonder if you can run out of 3di interstates in one state...
Maine probably comes closest - it uses the first four out of a possible 9 Interstates.  Then again, if things got too dire, it could commission 92 or 98 and work with that.

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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #121 on: April 11, 2010, 06:20:43 PM »

What if the Southern Bay Crossing ever became real and you connected I-980 to I-380? I-380 would sucumb to I-980 and you could give I-380 to I-238!!
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #122 on: April 12, 2010, 04:51:21 AM »

They should have I-238, I-580 (between Castro Valley and the W. terminus for I-205), I-205, and CA-120 be I-52.  I-580 between I-205 and I-5 could be I-252 and CA-152 can be I-152 with a few upgrades.  Hell, duplex I-52 with I-880 to CA-92 and route that bugger all the way to I-280!

One Caltran official also thought this was a great idea.   :sombrero:

« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 04:57:30 AM by KEK Inc. »
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #123 on: April 12, 2010, 12:04:05 PM »

What if the Southern Bay Crossing ever became real and you connected I-980 to I-380? I-380 would sucumb to I-980 and you could give I-380 to I-238!!

Funny enough, IIRC the 2003 Southern Crossing study looked at a direct 238-380 connection.
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Re: The Great Interstate 238 Debate
« Reply #124 on: April 12, 2010, 01:40:52 PM »

What if the Southern Bay Crossing ever became real and you connected I-980 to I-380? I-380 would sucumb to I-980 and you could give I-380 to I-238!!

Funny enough, IIRC the 2003 Southern Crossing study looked at a direct 238-380 connection.
That would be the most logical place for a new bridge across San Francisco Bay and it would solve the whole I-238 mess that has caused such an uproar among roadgeeks.  Unfortunately, that new bridge would have to span the bay at it's widest point and would have to be a low-level causeway to keep from interfering with air traffic from San Francisco International.  I think the reality is, while the Southern Crossing would help alleviate traffic on the Bay Bridge, it probably won't be built in our lifetimes.
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