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New Guide Signs within Caltrans D7

Started by AndyMax25, May 27, 2015, 11:17:27 PM

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AndyMax25

I figured I would start this new topic since I think there will be a lot of cases to post as District 7 will be replacing many guide signs.

Just saw this new advance guide sign for the CA 23 South / Westlake Blvd exit along NB Ventura Freeway (US 101) at the Lindero Canyon Exit.  I'm wondering why they chose to put a horizontal separator line?  This is a completely new structure and sign, it was not a replacement.

The second picture is of the NB gore point sign and third is of the SB advance sign at the Hampshire Rd on-ramp.







andy3175

Hi Andy, I hadn't seen the new SR 23 sign and haven't seen any in the state that use a horizontal line like that. Thank you for sharing.
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

DTComposer

I could perhaps understand this if CA-23 and Westlake Boulevard were distinct roadways, sorta like how they included the ampersand for the CA-126 "&" Newhall Ranch Road exit from I-5. And perhaps since CA-23 is only southbound on Westlake they were trying to emphasize that?

But mostly I feel like it's just another District 7 lack of design oversight.

Quillz

That new sign went up about a month ago, IIRC. I figured it was tied to the reconstruction of the Hampshire Road and CA-23 interchange a few miles up.

I don't think the horizontal separator looks that bad, actually. And it was unusual to see a totally new signpost, usually older ones just get greenout.

JustDrive

Quote from: Quillz on May 28, 2015, 01:38:17 AM
That new sign went up about a month ago, IIRC. I figured it was tied to the reconstruction of the Hampshire Road and CA-23 interchange a few miles up.

I don't think the horizontal separator looks that bad, actually. And it was unusual to see a totally new signpost, usually older ones just get greenout.

Yeah, the old sign was attached to the Lindero Canyon overpass. Still, I can't think of any other sign in D7 that has the horizontal separator.

Quillz

It's a first, I think. I know the US-101/CA-27 signs have a vertical separator (at least on the westbound lanes).

AndyMax25

Here are some new signs with double shielding. I believe both locations had original double shields.



Occidental Tourist

Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 16, 2015, 01:01:09 AM
Here are some new signs with double shielding. I believe both locations had original double shields.




Thanks, Andy. 

I have a question about this for someone in the know:  Does anyone in the sign shop review new signs to determine conformance with the California MUTCD, or is it a fait accompli by the the time it gets there?  I know the 118 sign was originally designed out-of-spec with two shields for some reason (probably due to the lack of control city), but the double-shield on the 110 sign was a greenout job to cover up the former dual route designation of the Harbor Freeway.  At a minimum, somebody should have caught and corrected the 110 sign before it went out.

andy3175

QuoteThanks, Andy. 

I have a question about this for someone in the know:  Does anyone in the sign shop review new signs to determine conformance with the California MUTCD, or is it a fait accompli by the the time it gets there?  I know the 118 sign was originally designed out-of-spec with two shields for some reason (probably due to the lack of control city), but the double-shield on the 110 sign was a greenout job to cover up the former dual route designation of the Harbor Freeway.  At a minimum, somebody should have caught and corrected the 110 sign before it went out.

While I've seen some replaced signs with significant changes from the old signs, in many cases I've seen "carbon copies" of the old signs. This is why some legacy issues such as double shields remain. But I think there's been direction to get rid of the freeway names whenever possible, and of course in many cases space is made for exit numbers (but not all cases, which I still think is a mistake).
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

myosh_tino

#9
Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 16, 2015, 01:01:09 AM


I did a redesign on the signs in the above photo adding a control city for CA-118 and an exit tab for I-405.



Note: Looking at the this exit in Google Maps, I noticed that you can get to I-405 south from both lanes so I guess my redesign might cause some unnecessary lane changes as drivers wanting to reach I-405 south might think they have to get in the far right lane.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

AndyMax25

These just went up within the last week along southbound San Diego Freeway I-405.  Some thoughts.

The middle sign at the Century exit was replaced one for one.  Seems like it could have been cleaned up.


Looks like the BOLD setting was left on when designing the 105 east Norwalk heading.


As noted in other threads, CT has not been including city names on the overhead guide signs approaching an exit. However Manhattan Beach was replaced one for one on both of the Rosecrans exit signs.


DTComposer

Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 29, 2015, 10:24:34 PM
The middle sign at the Century exit was replaced one for one.  Seems like it could have been cleaned up.


Doesn't ANYONE look at the signs before replacing to see if they could be made more accurate/efficient/elegant/etc? I've said this before, but I would volunteer my time to do this sort of thing.

That said, here's my amateur attempt at clean-up:


myosh_tino

These signs were part of a major sign replacement project (Caltrans Project 07-1w2204) that drew a lot of attention (and criticism) from people on these forums due to some funky layouts and the omission of control cities on pull-through signs even though there was plenty of space on the panels.

Although it's late, I took a whack at re-creating all 3 signs following the signing plans and here's what I came up with...



I suspect the odd layout of the middle sign was due to the fact that the existing supports on the overpass were re-used instead of installing new ones and is the reason why the two signs could not be combined.

If it was possible to combine the two signs into a single panel, here's my redesign...

Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

AndyMax25


Quote from: Occidental Tourist on August 17, 2015, 07:55:04 PM
Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 16, 2015, 01:01:09 AM
Here are some new signs with double shielding. I believe both locations had original double shields.



Thanks, Andy. 

I have a question about this for someone in the know:  Does anyone in the sign shop review new signs to determine conformance with the California MUTCD, or is it a fait accompli by the the time it gets there?  I know the 118 sign was originally designed out-of-spec with two shields for some reason (probably due to the lack of control city), but the double-shield on the 110 sign was a greenout job to cover up the former dual route designation of the Harbor Freeway.  At a minimum, somebody should have caught and corrected the 110 sign before it went out.

Here is the plan sheet for the 110 double shield sign. As mentioned by Myosh, lots of folks on this forum looked at these plans and I actually got Caltrans to make some changes before he signs were fabricated. This particular one did not have any comments. At least it will resemble the original style for at least another 50 years.  Also, I purposely did not comment on keeping the Harbor freeway name on the new signs. We will take what we can get.


andy3175

Quote from: myosh_tino on August 30, 2015, 05:57:19 AM
If it was possible to combine the two signs into a single panel, here's my redesign...



I like this version! Very nice and easy to read.
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

andy3175

Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 29, 2015, 10:24:34 PM

Looks like the BOLD setting was left on when designing the 105 east Norwalk heading.



The predecessor signs (from the early 1990s) were oddly faded, so I am glad these got replaced. I think they added some exit numbers to the approach signs for I-105?

Thanks as always Andy for posting these. I really appreciate the updates. There have been few sign replacements anywhere in District 11, except for a few new signs along I-805 north near Sorrento Valley/Mira Mesa Blvd interchange, I-805 south at SR 52, and I-15 northbound at Poway Road/Rancho Penasquitos Blvd. Most of these arrived in the past six months.
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

AndyMax25


Quote from: andy3175 on August 31, 2015, 12:56:24 AM
Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 29, 2015, 10:24:34 PM

Looks like the BOLD setting was left on when designing the 105 east Norwalk heading.



The predecessor signs (from the early 1990s) were oddly faded, so I am glad these got replaced. I think they added some exit numbers to the approach signs for I-105?


Here is the original sign. Yes I believe these were the originals from when I-105 was completed.  Some of the last button copy signs installed in District 7. IMO they were in decent shape.  In general the red on the older signs kept its color unlike most of the recent signs and the darker green provided better contract and a crisper look.

andy3175

Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 31, 2015, 01:21:50 AM
Here is the original sign. Yes I believe these were the originals from when I-105 was completed.  Some of the last button copy signs installed in District 7. IMO they were in decent shape.  In general the red on the older signs kept its color unlike most of the recent signs and the darker green provided better contract and a crisper look.


Yes I think it was the loss of the red color that I recall as fading in this general area. The darker green signs, porcelain enamel or not, are becoming less common, but they are still not hard to find on most Southern California freeways.

Whoever noted that exit numbers in California will take decades to be fully signed (another thread) is most likely correct given the current timeframe in which new signs are being placed in the Southland. Exit numbers are much easier to find along rural stretches of freeway, such as I-5 and CA 99 in the Central Valley.
Regards,
Andy

www.aaroads.com

mrsman

Quote from: andy3175 on August 31, 2015, 12:53:49 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 30, 2015, 05:57:19 AM
If it was possible to combine the two signs into a single panel, here's my redesign...



I like this version! Very nice and easy to read.

I've always wondered about the wisdom of the signage at this interchange.  The first ramp leads to La Cienega north of Century.  Making a left at the light on LC and then a right on Century West leads right to the Airport.

The second ramp leads you to go further down the  C/D lanes.  The first exit from the C/D ramps leads to LC south of Century, for a right and a right to Century East.  Conceivably, you could take this ramp and then make a left on Century to the Airport, but why??

The third ramp also leads to LC but close to Imperial Highway.  Imperial is less congested than Century, but it is still a long way out of the way to go to reach teh passenger terminals.

I would sign only the Century West exit as leading to LAX.

myosh_tino

Quote from: mrsman on September 04, 2015, 03:55:51 PM
The second ramp leads you to go further down the  C/D lanes.  The first exit from the C/D ramps leads to LC south of Century, for a right and a right to Century East.  Conceivably, you could take this ramp and then make a left on Century to the Airport, but why??

This was probably done so you aren't overloading the first exit to La Cienega.  Besides, in either case you have to make a left to get to the airport (left onto La Cienega, right onto Century *or* right onto La Cienega, left onto Century... granted you might have to wait a little longer to make the left onto Century).
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

SignBridge

Every time I see new signage from Caltrans I have the same reaction. WTF! They just can't seem to get a lot of the basics correct. It's like they're drunk when they do the specs.

Some of the above signs had city names on them like Manhattan Beach. What's up with that? I thought Caltrans' policy was not to include city names with local street names.

myosh_tino

There are a number of sign replacement projects within District 4 (San Francisco Bay Area) that are going out to bid over the next couple of weeks.  It'll be interesting to see which signs are being replaced and how those new signs are going to be laid out.  I suspect/fear that a lot of older button copy signs are going to be targeted for replacement.
Quote from: golden eagle
If I owned a dam and decided to donate it to charity, would I be giving a dam? I'm sure that might be a first because no one really gives a dam.

AndyMax25


Quote from: andy3175 on August 31, 2015, 10:59:10 PM
Quote from: AndyMax25 on August 31, 2015, 01:21:50 AM
Here is the original sign. Yes I believe these were the originals from when I-105 was completed.  Some of the last button copy signs installed in District 7. IMO they were in decent shape.  In general the red on the older signs kept its color unlike most of the recent signs and the darker green provided better contract and a crisper look.


Yes I think it was the loss of the red color that I recall as fading in this general area. The darker green signs, porcelain enamel or not, are becoming less common, but they are still not hard to find on most Southern California freeways.

Andy, yes there are still many button copy signs around in the LA area.  What I meant was these particular signs associated the 105 freeway were some of the last new button copy signs to be installed in D7.  Shortly after the completion of the freeway, Caltrans started changing to the current reflective standards.

AndyMax25

More strange things going on with this replacement project.  Despite providing comments on this and brining it to CT's attention, they still decided to place some route shields associated with arterial streets on the left side of the sign panel.  I believe the though was that since they now put the freeway route shields on the left side, they wanted to do the same for the arterials.

Inconsistency still looms as other signs not included in the original plans were replaced one for one with the normal configuration having the route shield to the right of the street name. See examples below. 

The Rosecrans/Inglewood/Hawthorne and Inglewood/Hawthorne/Redondo Beach signs was replaced one for one.





However, the Hawthorne/Redondo Beach/Artesia and Redondo Beach/Artesia/Crenshaw signs follow this strange new convention.




DTComposer

That does parse out very oddly to me - on first glance it does give the impression that the Artesia exit would put you on a freeway, and since CA-91 is a freeway for the majority of its length, I would imagine a less-informed motoring public would think the same - then find themselves on three miles of surface street before hitting the freeway.

Is the intention to direct motorists heading towards destinations on the freeway portion of CA-91 (Fullerton, Corona, Riverside, etc.) actually to send them on Artesia Boulevard for three miles, rather than continue on I-405 to I-110 to CA-91?

I know westbound on CA-91 signs direct you onto I-110 south to access I-405, rather than continuing onto Artesia Boulevard, so I wonder why it wouldn't be the same in reverse?



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