Does it really matter where to place a flag in a room?

[roadman65]

I was wondering as I got into a flame war almost with a fellow parishioner of mine while worshiping a few years back.  He got all bent out of shape when our pastor displayed the American Flag on the right side of the altar.  He started complaining during typical men gossip about how disrespectful our pastor is to the US flag because its not on the left side of the room.  Then, of course, I told him who cares as there is a lot of things more important to raise your blood pressure then to worry about the church's flag.  Of course to me as long as you have a flag and fly it is all that matters.

However, the argument he made is that somebody made a rule years ago that you fly a flag indoors on the left side of a stage always and that is where it always stood!  Then some other man later said that its a law that congress made when the US was first founded that you must place a flag on the left side of an assembly which I find hard to believe that George Washington and our founding fathers would actually care which side of a room you are to place our icon of freedom and what our great nation stands for.

Is this propaganda, or a custom that people just followed without thinking?

[Roadrunner75]

Here are two relevant pages for the US Flag Code:
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Flag_Code
US Flag.org:  http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

Apparently it was originally codified in 1923, and it does require the flag on the left side of the room (audience's left).

[mhh]

At the risk of starting a flame war, which I really don't want to do, I'll give my personal opinion. The American flag is a secular symbol, and a church is a Christian building. It's really not appropriate to have a national flag in church, just as it's not appropriate to have a cross or crucifix in a government building. In a church, Christian symbols should be predominant.

[formulanone]

The American flag is a secular symbol, and a church is a Christian building. It's really not appropriate to have a national flag in church, just as it's not appropriate to have a cross or crucifix in a government building.

I've been to Jewish synagogues with a single American flag in them. At risk of putting out a flame war, I think that's what makes our country so great.

On the other hand, I've never seen too much reason for a Flag Code. After all, our nation even allows you to legally fold, spindle, or mutilate the said object. To put it lightly, it's just considered bad form to do so at certain times.

[ZLoth]

Is this propaganda, or a custom that people just followed without thinking?

It's proper protocol, and shows respect. If I am in another country and they are leading a pledge to that country's flag, I would stand out of respect.

[1995hoo]

The American flag is a secular symbol, and a church is a Christian building. It's really not appropriate to have a national flag in church, just as it's not appropriate to have a cross or crucifix in a government building.

I've been to Jewish synagogues with a single American flag in them. At risk of putting out a flame war, I think that's what makes our country so great.

....

I'm Catholic and most parishes I've visited in the US have both a US flag and the flag of the Holy See in the sanctuary, almost always with the US flag to the congregation's left (the flag's own right). Of course in other countries the US flag isn't there. The one exception was a parish that put both flags in the lobby right outside the sanctuary doors due to arguments similar to those made by "mhh." (Come to think of it, I believe St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans had a lot of historic flags hanging from the walls up above the congregation.) As a general matter, though, Catholic discipline doesn't object to the flag being in the church because the church generally recognizes the legitimacy of local authorities–consider the biblical reference to giving to Caesar what is Caesar's.

[english si]

I've been to Jewish synagogues with a single American flag in them. At risk of putting out a flame war, I think that's what makes our country so great.

Jewish, Christian, whatever, there's no difference: you actually all worship stars and stripes...

...which, as an outsider, is one of the worst things about America.

Sure, it's the Republic and ideals for which the flag stands (which are great, btw - and my inheritance as an Englishman, denied throughout history by tyrants like Billy and Chaz, proclaimed and fought for by British patriots who sought to preserve true-Britain across the water while Britain itself lost its way) that you worship via the flag, but the Pledge of Allegiance etc strike me as something that runs counter those ideals and would be more at home under one of the totalitarian regimes that you fought (normally coming late to the party) during the 20th century...

As for the flag code: ditto - it turns patriotism into following the rules. I can't think of a greater disrespect for the flag and the ideals for which it stands than a codification of the 'right' way to treat it whereby everything else is disrespect.

As a general matter, though, Catholic discipline doesn't object to the flag being in the church because the church generally recognizes the legitimacy of local authorities–consider the biblical reference to giving to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Given this:

Of course in other countries the US flag isn't there.

is also true of other countries flags most of the time - certainly not true in 'tyrannous' Britain - perhaps Caesar is asking too much? Sure, it's actually the American Civil Religion that's demanding it rather than the Republic itself, but...

[freebrickproductions]

My church has both the US flag and a church flag. The flag is always on the left.

[formulanone]

I've been to Jewish synagogues with a single American flag in them. At risk of putting out a flame war, I think that's what makes our country so great.

Jewish, Christian, whatever, there's no difference: you actually all worship stars and stripes...

...which, as an outsider, is one of the worst things about America.

I've been to a variety of houses of worship, with varying amounts of nationalistic pride mentioned (ranging from zero to OMG pray for our leaders and hope they don't blow us all up to smithereens).

The flag is supposed to be there wherever people congregate formally, I suppose for the reasons of some sort of united purpose, vaguely at the same time. Another words, church, school, government buildings, stadia...but not most restaurants, for example.

I don't think we really worship our country, per se. Since we're the product of many different cultures, backgrounds, and traditions, I guess it forms a bit national identity. Our history is only about 240 years old, after all. Some people just get more wrapped up in the fervor than others do. There's still people who fly the Confederate Flag. We're typically just as critical of our nation, as we enjoy certain things about it.

[english si]

The flag is supposed to be there wherever people congregate formally, I suppose for the reasons of some sort of united purpose, vaguely at the same time. Another words, church, school, government buildings, stadia...but not most restaurants, for example.

But why? Isn't 'supposed to behave like this' kind of what is bad about other countries but not America?

I don't think we really worship our country, per se.

Sure, I was being a bit hyperbolic, but certainly, as an outsider, and perhaps specifically because I'm a British (or even English) outsider, you think far too highly of your country, and to display the flag prominently in places of worship is something rather off-putting.

Worse is schools - now I'm with Gove in schools should be promoting British values, but having flagpoles, pledging allegiance, yuck. I'm trying to think if I ever, yes ever, saw a British/English flag on display at school. Nope. Patriotic songs? There was the one that my French teacher made us sing after France won the World Cup about how they put three past Brazil. Oh, and we did the French national anthem as part of a collection of French songs for a 'learn French' course that someone's mum was creating when at primary school (our two fingered salutes as we sung it being the most nationalistic thing we did in 14 years of state education - and that something we'd get in trouble for if we'd have been caught).

Since we're the product of many different cultures, backgrounds, and traditions, I guess it forms a bit national identity.

You've conflated cultural imperialism, racism and traditionalism for nationalism here.

Oh, and we have that attitude so sown down, that the very idea of 'British values' fills our mouths with vomit and our speech with terms like 'not British to have that'.

Our history is only about 240 years old, after all.

And that stops you from zealously parading the flag and all how?

Germany was about 60 years old when it elected a goose-stepping militaristic racist that took them to war on the grounds of Germanic superiority... Oh, and they had already had a war before where Germanic superiority was a driving cause of it... I'm certainly not saying that American patriotism is like Hitler (though I will say he'd love the flags in places of worship and allegiance pledges in schools and flag codes - though not to America, obviously!), I'm saying that how long a country has been around for means nothing.

Arguably, the countries that have been around a long time, don't get patriotic as much as other countries - there's no zealots like converts, and your whole country is pretty much built on people coming over and 'converting' from Mexican, British, Irish, German, Dutch, French, Latvian, Vietnamese, Kyrgyzstani, etc (which links in with the previous thing I quoted).

Some people just get more wrapped up in the fervor than others do.

Yes, but your default state is simply not caring what side of the religious building to display the national symbol. Our default state is cynicism and dislike of any PDA, which is falling off the other side of the wrong horse, but, as an outsider, it looks like you treat the flag as a religious symbol and you can find it in most places of worship, having syncretized it in...

Your whole country is wrapped in the fervour more than the UK at its most patriotic. Two years ago, in the summer of 2012, with the Jubilee and the Olympics, we actually waved flags and (whisper it) felt proud to be British. Of course, business as usual has returned and we're back to our national sport of complaining about everything British...

We're typically just as critical of our nation

Nonsense:

as we enjoy certain things about it.

You enjoy things about your country? Disgraceful - you'd never do that if you didn't start the treasonous rebellion and remain part of Britain: for criticising our nation is our national hobby, and even a religion to some

[roadman65]

I have no problem about where the flag should be hung at all.  I just was wondering if there is a such ruling backed by law like a friend of mine said there is for sure.  I just find it odd that people would take the time to actually make a ruling of where a flag should be located in a room when it seems so petty.  Like I we going to die if we hang the flag on the right side of a room or audience?  However, the pledge part does make sense though as you are to use your right arm to pledge with.  With that said, I guess it would be awkward to pledge on the right of you with your right arm.

As far as church goes,  planting a flag inside the church is not going between church and state as doing the opposite.  If the congregation believes in individual nations, then they can make whatever ruling they want towards having a flag on the altar or in the narthex or wherever.  My take on it, not that everyone should believe the way I do, but just pointing out my opinion and how I feel towards that.

Anyway, Happy Independence Day to everyone!  May you all be safe this whole weekend.

[formulanone]

The flag is supposed to be there wherever people congregate formally, I suppose for the reasons of some sort of united purpose, vaguely at the same time. Another words, church, school, government buildings, stadia...but not most restaurants, for example.

But why? Isn't 'supposed to behave like this' kind of what is bad about other countries but not America?

I don't think we really worship our country, per se.

Sure, I was being a bit hyperbolic, but certainly, as an outsider, and perhaps specifically because I'm a British (or even English) outsider, you think far too highly of your country, and to display the flag prominently in places of worship is something rather off-putting.

Worse is schools - now I'm with Gove in schools should be promoting British values, but having flagpoles, pledging allegiance, yuck. I'm trying to think if I ever, yes ever, saw a British/English flag on display at school. Nope. Patriotic songs? There was the one that my French teacher made us sing after France won the World Cup about how they put three past Brazil. Oh, and we did the French national anthem as part of a collection of French songs for a 'learn French' course that someone's mum was creating when at primary school (our two fingered salutes as we sung it being the most nationalistic thing we did in 14 years of state education - and that something we'd get in trouble for if we'd have been caught).

Since we're the product of many different cultures, backgrounds, and traditions, I guess it forms a bit national identity.

You've conflated cultural imperialism, racism and traditionalism for nationalism here.

Oh, and we have that attitude so sown down, that the very idea of 'British values' fills our mouths with vomit and our speech with terms like 'not British to have that'.

Our history is only about 240 years old, after all.

And that stops you from zealously parading the flag and all how?

Germany was about 60 years old when it elected a goose-stepping militaristic racist that took them to war on the grounds of Germanic superiority... Oh, and they had already had a war before where Germanic superiority was a driving cause of it... I'm certainly not saying that American patriotism is like Hitler (though I will say he'd love the flags in places of worship and allegiance pledges in schools and flag codes - though not to America, obviously!), I'm saying that how long a country has been around for means nothing.

Arguably, the countries that have been around a long time, don't get patriotic as much as other countries - there's no zealots like converts, and your whole country is pretty much built on people coming over and 'converting' from Mexican, British, Irish, German, Dutch, French, Latvian, Vietnamese, Kyrgyzstani, etc (which links in with the previous thing I quoted).

Some people just get more wrapped up in the fervor than others do.

Yes, but your default state is simply not caring what side of the religious building to display the national symbol. Our default state is cynicism and dislike of any PDA, which is falling off the other side of the wrong horse, but, as an outsider, it looks like you treat the flag as a religious symbol and you can find it in most places of worship, having syncretized it in...

Your whole country is wrapped in the fervour more than the UK at its most patriotic. Two years ago, in the summer of 2012, with the Jubilee and the Olympics, we actually waved flags and (whisper it) felt proud to be British. Of course, business as usual has returned and we're back to our national sport of complaining about everything British...

We're typically just as critical of our nation

Nonsense:

as we enjoy certain things about it.

You enjoy things about your country? Disgraceful - you'd never do that if you didn't start the treasonous rebellion and remain part of Britain: for criticising our nation is our national hobby, and even a religion to some

You put the same damned leader on all your coinage and bestow titles on each other, along with other needless frippery and regalia...Please, it's just another act with the same actors and a different set in the same playhouse.

Complaints are easy, even a baby can do it. That's the disgraceful thing, but when a norm becomes the exception, and vice versa, that's what society is left with. The older I get, the more I'd rather deal with the positive, rather than folks who would complain just as slavishly about things as much as those who worship everything or blindly follow anything.

To be fair, I live in a nation in which Red versus Blue is a sporting match compared to nations where Communism versus Marxism is the order of the day, or the threat of an overthrown dictator (soon to be replaced with another tyrant) is a real threat.

I think you're mixing up 'Merica memes with reality. Or the flag(s) concern you more than they really ought to.

[SP Cook]

Thoughts.

- The flag code's legal effect has been by implication invalidated by the Supreme Court's ruling on flag burning. 

- There are people that get off on the various rules about the flag, such as it never dipping, on the right, all of that.  If that is your thing, then fine, but you can take anything to an extreme.

- I was a guest, not too long ago, at one of these "mega-churches".  The kind that operate in a gym like building rather than a traditional church building.  It had a "flags of all nations" theme covering up the sports stuff along the walls.  Problem was the set of flags they had bought was 25 years out of date, with the flag of East Germany included and the commie symbols on all of the other captive nations' flags.  Odd to worship near a flag of a regime that tortued people for the same thing, and in some cases still do.  They also included various flags such as Saudi Arabia that contain verses from the Koran.  I don't think the people there really knew that.  Made me unfortable.

- I've been to churches in Canada that had the Canadian flag next to the chuch flag.  I didn't feel this made me feel unwelcome.

- Went to the Reds game versus the Blue Jays a couple weeks ago.  Normally they have a center flag pole that is slightly higher flanked by the Ohio and Cincinnati city flags on the sides.  They had moved the US flag to the right lower pole, put a Maple Leaf flag on the left and left the center empty.  Also, they had the guy who usually does O Canada from the Blue Jackets, who did the amagimated French and English version of the song (BTW, it is two different sets of lyrics, not a translation).  Announcer asked us to stand and remove caps for both.  No one was harmed by doing so. 

- I've been to some college games where they sing the state song with the intonation to remove caps and all of that.  UT-Knoxville does among others.  Again no one on the visitors side was harmed by standing for it.

- We have an auto parts stamping plant that flies the US flag (on the right) and then the flags of its various customers's home countries, which changes from time to time.  For example currently some of their production current goes to a Freightliner plant (in South Carolina) so they fly the German flag.  The flags and the number of poles changes as customers change.

- The local ice rink has the flags of the 50 states on the wall.  Skipping Mississippi.  I hate PC pandering.

- (Highway related content).  The WV Welcome Center operated by the Turnpike has a military theme, with lots and lots of flags, including the Canadian flag, the Australian flag, the flags of the five armed services, the WV and Virginia state flags, the flag now associated with the Tea Party movement, the South Vietnamese flag, the POW/MIA flag and I forget what else. 

[J N Winkler]

. . . but the Pledge of Allegiance etc strike me as something that runs counter those ideals and would be more at home under one of the totalitarian regimes that you fought (normally coming late to the party) during the 20th century...

It used to be worse--the Pledge used to be said with the Bellamy salute.

Years ago I remember driving through a part of Ireland (either County Leitrim or County Donegal) and coming on a flag display which had the US flag, the Irish flag, and the EU flag.  The Union Jack was pointedly absent.

[roadman]

- (Highway related content).  The WV Welcome Center operated by the Turnpike has a military theme, with lots and lots of flags, including the Canadian flag, the Australian flag, the flags of the five armed services, the WV and Virginia state flags, the flag now associated with the Tea Party movement, the South Vietnamese flag, the POW/MIA flag and I forget what else. 

I've got it!  Raise the Flags Of All Nations!

From The Big Bus

[roadman65]

I want to know what a tuxedo has to do with being American?  I noticed the Knights of Columbus for their Fourth Degree, that is supposed to be about American Patriotism, requires to be one of its members you MUST wear a tux for the initiation to its grouping, and therefore own a tux afterwards so you can where those costumes with the plumed hats, the large cape, and the fake swords.  The members of the Fourth consider that to be part of patriotism and NO they do not remove their hats in front of the flag like all civilians are supposed to.

Someone told me that whenever you have a weapon attached, be a sword, or a gun, the hat removal is considered null and void and that includes many churches allowing that one instance when a man can wear a hat.  That is why the military is allowed to keep dressed in full uniform at all times, even in the presence of the flag, because they are armed for battle when in full uniform whether dress or field.  Supposedly the full dress uniform, although not worn in actual duty, is symbolic of that, so it is allowed.  I do not know if that is the reason or not, but the armed forces do not remove hats for normal hat removing events.

[spooky]

I want to know what a tuxedo has to do with being American?  I noticed the Knights of Columbus for their Fourth Degree, that is supposed to be about American Patriotism, requires to be one of its members you MUST wear a tux for the initiation to its grouping, and therefore own a tux afterwards so you can where those costumes with the plumed hats, the large cape, and the fake swords.  The members of the Fourth consider that to be part of patriotism and NO they do not remove their hats in front of the flag like all civilians are supposed to.

A tuxedo doesn't have anything to do with patriotism, but formality and ritual has a lot to do with membership in fraternal organizations like the Knights of Columbus.

[Scott5114]

I never got how removing your hat is supposed to be a sign of respect, anyway. Oh, look, you can see my hair, which is probably super messy because I've been wearing a hat all day! This means I respect you!

My high school was big on this. No hats on in the building, it's disrespectful! (Of course, having to enforce "respect" for an institution kind of makes me question whether anyone actually respects it otherwise...)

[formulanone]

I never got how removing your hat is supposed to be a sign of respect, anyway. Oh, look, you can see my hair, which is probably super messy because I've been wearing a hat all day! This means I respect you!

My high school was big on this. No hats on in the building, it's disrespectful! (Of course, having to enforce "respect" for an institution kind of makes me question whether anyone actually respects it otherwise...)

I guess the theory is that whether it's a hat or crown or anything denoting rank, it's supposed to be removed showing deference to the flag. I guess it symbolically shows equality, but I suppose religious headgear would be exempt from removal.

I'm not sure where the "no hats in a building" thing came from. Maybe in a time of tall or wide hats, it could become a bit of a nuisance to wear them indoors, especially in close quarters.

[mhh]

I never got how removing your hat is supposed to be a sign of respect, anyway. Oh, look, you can see my hair, which is probably super messy because I've been wearing a hat all day! This means I respect you!

My high school was big on this. No hats on in the building, it's disrespectful! (Of course, having to enforce "respect" for an institution kind of makes me question whether anyone actually respects it otherwise...)

It's actually a biblical concept: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+corinthians+11&version=ESV

[roadman]

My high school was big on this. No hats on in the building, it's disrespectful!

Our high school principal used to get really bothered by this as well.  I recall one day where my buddies and I, having finished lunch early, were waiting for our next class to start.  Because it was before class, and as I was not in the hallway, I put my baseball cap on.  The classroom, which was on the first floor, looked out on a pathway between the dining hall and the building we were in.

As the principal is walking back from the dining hall, he glances over at the classroom building and sees me with my hat on.  Next thing I know, he comes storming into the classroom and demands I take my hat off, to which I complied.

Several years after I graduated, my mother told me that, at a parent-teacher conference shortly after the incident, the principal mentioned what happened.  She then noted that, at the time, both she and my father considered the matter to be one of the most ridiculous things they'd ever heard in all their years of raising seven children.

Footnote:  Once a year, usually two weeks before finals, our high school had a hat day.  Because of this incident, every year I made a point of finding the most unusual hat I could wear.  I recall that sophomore year I wore a Navy Officer's hat (my oldest brother was in the Navy for a short stint), a tan shirt and pants, and had a corncob pipe in my mouth.  Our European History teacher got the biggest kick out of it.

[kkt]

I suppose displaying a flag in the wrong wall of a room grates on some people, just like an interstate with an out-of-grid number.

Taking your hat off to show respect comes from taking your helmet off and making yourself vulnerable to an attack.  Same principle as firing a ceremonial salute to a friendly country's ship: old cannon couldn't fire again for several minutes after they'd been fired, so if you fired without shot your ship was vulnerable to being fired upon without being able to fire back for several minutes.