Question about indenpendent cities and consolodations

[roadman65]

I was noticing that in the US there are a total of 41 independent cities.  38 of them are in Virginia, one is Baltimore, one other is St. Louis, and the other is Carson City, NV.

I understand how these all operate, but does not Philadelphia, Jacksonville, and even Denver where the respected cities are the counties operate the same way?  Also why is not Arlington, VA considered an independent city when it is governed like one as well.  I did read into Arlington that was originally Alexandria County until 1920, and it seems that DC giving Virginia back its land was something to do with it.  That would explain why Arlington and DC both together form almost a perfect square as it was intended for DC to be a square district.  Part of Alexandria North East of VA 7 would have completed the square as King Street runs between the line Arlington/ Fairfax and where the DC Line with MD comes to a head in the Potomac just south of the Wilson Drawbridge.

Anyway, to me it all seems the same whether the city is without a county or is the same entity as the county.  Even in NYC as even though it has five counties that are with NYS, all five are the City itself, so even NYC should be an independent city.  So what really are the differences other than name classification.  Why does VA really call Arlington a county when it could be classified like Richmond as it operates the same?

[oscar]

So what really are the differences other than name classification.  Why does VA really call Arlington a county when it could be classified like Richmond as it operates the same?

Among the differences, Arlington County doesn't have an elected mayor like Alexandria independent city, just an elected county board, a board chairman elected by fellow board members, and a county manager appointed by the board.  Another difference, from the roadgeek standpoint, is that in Virginia independent cities have more control over road signage and maintenance than counties (so independent cities are the place for cutout-hunting), though Arlington County has a special arrangement with the state giving it more control over non-primary routes than does adjacent Fairfax County which has a multitude of state-maintained minor secondary routes.

I don't know all the differences (having lived in Arlington County for more than thirty years, and independent city Falls Church for only a few months), but I would not assume that Arlington "operates the same" as Alexandria.

Just to clarify, Virginia has Richmond County, which is in a different part of the state from, and otherwise completely unrelated to, Richmond independent city.

[Scott5114]

In the case of Wyandotte County, KS, there are some parts of Wyandotte County which are not part of Kansas City–Edwardsville and Bonner Springs among others. I don't know how the details work, but I would guess that the governments of these towns are free to conduct their own municipal functions and only rely on the WyCo Unified Government for whatever functions a county normally provides to municipal governments.

[1995hoo]

Local government law is a Big Deal in Virginia and is usually the main topic of at least one essay question on the bar exam. I'll try to distill down some of the key points I remember as much as possible.

–Counties are considered an extension of the Commonwealth and share in the Commonwealth's sovereign immunity except where specifically abrogated (meaning you can't sue them most of the time unless you jump through special hoops).

–Independent cities are not part of the surrounding counties and are created by act of the General Assembly granting a city a charter. A city does not share sovereign immunity and may be sued for various things for which a county cannot. The city has no right to exist absent the charter.

–A city has the powers enumerated in its charter and only those powers unless a state statute is made generally applicable to cities.

–A county has whatever powers the Commonwealth delegates to the counties, but only those powers (this is the Dillon Rule, which is a big deal in Virginia). A county doesn't have a charter like a city does.

–Cities can impose certain taxes counties can't, but cities have certain financial obligations most counties don't (road maintenance being the main one).

–Cities hold local elections sometime in May or June. Counties hold theirs on the normal November date.

–Sometimes cities and counties have an agreement to provide certain unified services. Fairfax City participates in the Fairfax County school system, for example. Rockingham County shares its courts with Harrisonburg City (there are historical reasons behind this).

–School districts in Virginia are not independent. The cities and counties provide schools (sometimes unified, as noted above). Fairfax County has 22 high schools, 23 junior highs, 3 secondary schools (combined junior high and high school), and 196 elementary schools, for example.

One historic peculiarity is that two counties have the word "city" in their names (Charles City County and James City County) but are legally counties for reasons dating back to the 1630s. They're counties because of the form of government created in those areas by King Charles I.

[bandit957]

Virginia won't let Arlington become a city, because they don't want Arlington to be able to do anything about high housing costs.

[roadman65]

I noticed that Williamsburg is the County Seat of James City County, but it is independent of the county itself.
Also, that in your post 1995, is most likely why VDOT won't assume maintainance in the big cities either. That is why Business US 1 in Fredericksburg is still signed as mainline US 1 even though its been moved over 40 years ago.
ALT US 1 (which is now mainline) is still signed on the Rapannhock River Bridge gantry upon US 1 entering Fredericksburg from the north. 

I even noticed that many independent cities do not sign business routes as such anyways and still use old cutout shields.  Then there is VA Beach that will not sign neither US 58 or US 60 in many places leaving one lost to find where US 60 really ends and no acknowledgement from US 58 and vice versa its existence.

[oscar]

I noticed that Williamsburg is the County Seat of James City County, but it is independent of the county itself.

IIRC, the county seat of James City County is outside the Williamsburg city limits, but is in a part of the county with a Williamsburg postal address.  That is a common situation in Virginia, with for example much of Fairfax County (including its main government offices in the Fair Oaks area) with the same postal addresses as the independent cities of Fairfax, Alexandria, and Falls Church, and the Richmond postal address extending into Henrico County including the latter's main government offices. 

AFAIK, only in southwestern Alaska is there a U.S. county seat physically located in another county (Lake and Peninsula Borough, whose county seat is in King Salmon in Bristol Bay Borough). 

[oscar]

Also, that in your post 1995, is most likely why VDOT won't assume maintainance in the big cities either. That is why Business US 1 in Fredericksburg is still signed as mainline US 1 even though its been moved over 40 years ago.
ALT US 1 (which is now mainline) is still signed on the Rapannhock River Bridge gantry upon US 1 entering Fredericksburg from the north.

I think route signage in independent cities is handled mostly or entirely by the cities rather than VDOT.  Plus is that the cities are where you can still find cutout route markers.  Minus is that the cities are sometimes really, really sloppy about route signage (Richmond is a prime offender).

[NJRoadfan]

Local government law is a Big Deal in Virginia and is usually the main topic of at least one essay question on the bar exam. I'll try to distill down some of the key points I remember as much as possible.

Whats the deal with incorporated towns that are NOT independent cities? What kind of powers do those get? ex: Ashland, Herndon, and Newsoms (Southhampton County).

The reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.

[froggie]

though Arlington County has a special arrangement with the state giving it more control over non-primary routes than does adjacent Fairfax County which has a multitude of state-maintained minor secondary routes.

This is because, unlike every other county in Virginia, Arlington County did not give up its roads to VDOT's predecessor during the Great Depression.

Virginia won't let Arlington become a city, because they don't want Arlington to be able to do anything about high housing costs.

That has absolutely nothing to do with it...

I think route signage in independent cities is handled mostly or entirely by the cities rather than VDOT.

Correct.  Hoo alluded to this earlier, but except for the freeways (which are still maintained by VDOT), independent cities have maintenance responsibility over the roads in their city.  Hence why you see a hodgepodge of route signage in the cities.

The reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.

Never had that problem during the times I've traveled through Newsoms.  Heck, I haven't ever even seen a cop in that area.

Regarding Virginia independent cities, something Hoo missed on his list is the requirement that all independent cities must provide the same services/governmental functions that a county does.

It should also be noted that there are at least two cases of independent cities that were created in order to avoid annexation by another cities.  This is SOLELY the reason why Virginia Beach was created out of Princess Anne County (to avoid annexation by Norfolk), and is a big reason (but not the only one) behind the creation of Chesapeake.

[1995hoo]

Towns are part of the county but handle certain things on their own. You have to register your car with the town, for example. I don't really remember the story there (hey, I took the bar exam 16 years ago and I don't practice local government law). There are a number of instances of independent cities that have "reverted" to town status–Clifton Forge comes to mind (in part because I have some friends there). The town carries a much smaller financial burden than a city does.

As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county. Charlottesville is the county seat of Albemarle County, for example, despite being independent (God knows I remember standing on line to get my county sticker one year at the county office building located in downtown Charlottesville!). Fairfax City used to be the county seat of Fairfax County until the county built a new office complex in the county–but the courthouse and jail are still in Fairfax City.

The reason why VDOT won't assume road maintenance in the independent cities (except for Interstates, certain US routes, and certain primary routes) dates back to the early 1930s. It's state law that VDOT not do so. You can find a reasonable explanation on Wikipedia, and that's the type of article that's less likely to be vandalized because most people aren't interested enough to bother. Of course, now that I said that, NE2 will probably see this and go vandalize the article just to be a prick!

....

Regarding Virginia independent cities, something Hoo missed on his list is the requirement that all independent cities must provide the same services/governmental functions that a county does.

....

I thought it was clear enough I wasn't trying to present an exhaustive list!

[NJRoadfan]

Never had that problem during the times I've traveled through Newsoms.  Heck, I haven't ever even seen a cop in that area.

http://www.tidewaternews.com/2012/09/07/speeding-motorists-fund-72-of-newsoms-budget/

They generally sit after the 20mph drop on the westbound side of General Thomas Highway/SR-671. The limit drops are about 1/4 mile long and bam, there is a cop sitting just past some trees at a curve in the road. Whats interesting is the revenue is going to the town. I thought in VA the ticket money went to the state..... unless they are pulling the local ordinance loophole Hopewell was using.

[roadman65]

Would all the cities and towns in Connecticut be considered independent then?  Remember, CT does not have a county form of government.  Counties in CT are for regional purposes and serve no other purpose there as well as some in MA.  I think Nantucket County does not have its own county government but falls under the City of Boston for control.

BTW I am learning a lot from the talk about VA here.  It is very interesting to learn what goes on inside the commonwealth.

[kkt]

The City and County of San Francisco have the same boundaries and the same government.  The Board of Supervisors is the elected body in charge, which is what county elected bodies are called in California, but S.F. has an elected mayor like cities have instead of a county executive like counties have.  There is a S.F. Sheriff's Dept., but they have no unincorporated land to patrol so they're a small body.

[6a]

1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls.  I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.

Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.

Edit 2: regarding the Dillon rule, cities in states that have home rule are *very* protective of that status.  I remember Charlotte harassing the state to all hell just to adjust a speed limit in a work zone because they didn't have the power to do it themselves.


vvv that's a fantastic article, thanks for sharing.

[cpzilliacus]

1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls.  I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.

Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.

As I understand it, in theory, cities can still annex land from nearby counties, but there is a "temporary moratorium" on so-called "hostile" annexations of cities by land in an adjoining county.

That "temporary moratorium" was imposed by the Virginia General Assembly sometime in the 1970's 1980's and is still in effect.

Now if a city and county can reach an agreement regarding annexation, then the city may annex land from an adjoining county.  The City of Manassas annexed a fairly large piece of land from Prince William County not so many years ago along Va. 234 (Prince William Parkway).

There is an excellent and comprehensive discussion of annexation in Virginia and related matters in the January 2012 issue of the The Virginia News Letter, put out by the Weldon Cooper Center for Public Service at the University of Virginia.

[6a]

1995hoo might have more clear information on this, but cities in Virginia are effectively banned from annexing land going back to 1976, I believe. The problem is especially apparent in areas such as Richmond. The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls.  I have heard of lawsuits being filed for annexations to take place and, when they are allowed, are usually fairly large in area.

Edit: regarding Arlington, I believe there is actually a law, one of those weirdly specific ones, that says a county over 800,001 in population or whatever cannot become a city.

As I understand it, in theory, cities can still annex land from nearby counties, but there is a "temporary moratorium" on so-called "hostile" annexations of cities by land in an adjoining county.

That "temporary moratorium" was imposed by the Virginia General Assembly sometime in the 1970's and is still in effect.

Now if a city and county can reach an agreement regarding annexation, then the city may annex land from an adjoining county.  The City of Manassas annexed a fairly large piece of land from Prince William County not so many years ago along Va. 234 (Prince William Parkway).

Now that you mention that it jogs my memory of a similar situation with Danville and Pittsylvania Co. 

Whats the deal with incorporated towns that are NOT independent cities? What kind of powers do those get? ex: Ashland, Herndon, and Newsoms (Southhampton County).

The reason I listed Newsoms is that they are a classic "speed trap" town with their own 2 person police force that exists to write tickets and not much else and they likely don't have the 1000 people needed (according to wiki) to incorporate. I didn't think such things were possible in Dillon Rule states.

Again, actual lawyers probably have more specific info...but while there may be a population minimum to *become* a town, if the population falls at a later date the town status stays.

[cpzilliacus]

one is Baltimore,

As I understand it, other cities in Maryland could become "independent" cities like Baltimore, but have not, probably because as an independent city they would have to take on "county" responsibilities like public schools, a judicial system, a jail and other matters.

Annapolis threatened to secede from Anne Arundel County a few times (mostly in disputes over transportation funding), but nothing ever came of it.

[cpzilliacus]

As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county.

Lexington is the county seat of Rockbridge County.
Winchester is the county seat of Frederick County.
Williamsburg is the county seat of James City County.

[oscar]

As far as county seats go, it's not unprecedented in Virginia for a county seat to be located inside an independent city that's not part of the county.

Lexington is the county seat of Rockbridge County.
Winchester is the county seat of Frederick County.
Williamsburg is the county seat of James City County.

The county government office for James City County is just outside Williamsburg city limits, even though it has a Williamsburg postal address.

Frederick and Rockbridge Counties indeed have their county government offices within the city limits of, respectively, Winchester and Lexington.

Albemarle County has two county government office buildings, one within Charlottesville city limits and the other just south of the city.  The main county office seems to be the one within Charlottesville city limits.

Where you find the courthouses for Virginia cities and counties may be a different story, especially for those with consolidated court systems.  This can be a headache for the subspecies of county-counters (some of whom I met at the Extra Miler Club annual meeting in Rochester last weekend) who try to visit or photograph the courthouse in each jurisdiction they count as "visited".

[Mapmikey]

The City of Fredericksburg has also gotten bigger since 1990 to obtain what is now the Central Park development off I-95/VA 3.  It had been a golf course and Spotsylvania County agreed to let Fredericksburg have it if the city would also take the area where Fall Hill Ave crosses I-95 which was a higher crime area at the time.  Spotsy has regretted this move many times since as Central Park is a huge revenue stream for Fredericksburg which was able to lower property taxes while maintaining a high level of services...

A list of former Independent Cities in Virginia:

These reverted back to towns:
South Boston
Clifton Forge
Bedford

These were absorbed/merged into larger cities:
Denbigh
Warwick
Phoebus
South Norfolk

One was renamed:
Nanesmond

The list in 1932: Alexandria, Bristol, Buena Vista, Charlottesville, Clifton Forge, Covington, Danville, Fredericksburg, Hampton, Harrisonburg, Lynchburg, Martinsville, Newport News, Petersburg, Portsmouth, Pulaski, Radford, Richmond, Roanoke, Salem, S. Boston, S. Norfolk, Staunton, Suffolk, Waynesboro, Winchester

Mapmikey

[1995hoo]

I don't have much to add to what the others have said.

Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City). They want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose. I'm not sure what the process would involve–I think a referendum is a prerequisite to the General Assembly doing anything about it–but I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years. The cost of road maintenance would be SUBSTANTIAL and the people who are interested in the idea seem to be doing their best not to mention that as a city, we'd have to maintain our own roads instead of VDOT doing it. I've heard some people suggest Fairfax could do a better job than VDOT, which may be true, but there's that issue of paying for it.

[hbelkins]

The city cannot annex land and reap the various tax benefits its own existence helped create because, being independent, that would remove the same property from the county tax rolls.

Didn't we have a huge blowup on a thread here several months ago where someone claimed that people living in suburbs were cheating the city, because they get all the benefits of living in a metro area (jobs, cultural activities, etc.) without having to pay for them?

At any rate, this isn't the case in Kentucky. Property owners within city limits pay taxes to both the city and the county, and there is no credit to offset the difference. I get tax bills from both the city and county on property I own within the city limits.

Recently some Democrats ... want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose.

Well, THAT certainly reinforces political stereotypes. 

[oscar]

Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City).

They could go with Fairfax County City, to go along with James City County and Charles City County.

Or maybe they could seek a merger with Fairfax city?

[Mapmikey]

I don't have much to add to what the others have said.

Recently some Democrats in Fairfax County have expressed interest in trying to get the Commonwealth to allow the county to become an independent city (I don't know what it'd be called, given that there's already a Fairfax City). They want to be able to impose taxes that only cities are currently allowed to impose. I'm not sure what the process would involve–I think a referendum is a prerequisite to the General Assembly doing anything about it–but I don't believe there have been any new independent cities in over 40 years. The cost of road maintenance would be SUBSTANTIAL and the people who are interested in the idea seem to be doing their best not to mention that as a city, we'd have to maintain our own roads instead of VDOT doing it. I've heard some people suggest Fairfax could do a better job than VDOT, which may be true, but there's that issue of paying for it.

VDOT would still be sending money for road maintenance.  In fact I thought I read somewhere that VDOT would be forced to send MORE money if Fairfax County <b>either</b> opted out of VDOT maintenance or became an independent city.

Several links on this page that discuss jurisdictional funding though not where VDOT is responsible for the maintenance themselves.

Mapmikey