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Expanded Kansas/Oklahoma/Texas toll transponder interoperability on the horizon

Started by route56, February 25, 2016, 07:36:35 AM

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rte66man

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 24, 2016, 05:20:31 PM
Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 24, 2016, 04:30:00 PMI can't wait for OTA to rebuild the Walters and Chickasha toll plazas on the H.E. Bailey Turnpike. If I recall correctly they were scheduled to be rebuilt in 2016 (Chickasha) and 2018 (Walters). Does anyone know if that schedule is still good or have those projects been pushed back years later?

Chickasha tollbooth relocation contract (HEB-MC-59) was advertised with an opening date last May 10:

https://www.pikepass.com/Engineering/ProjectInformation.aspx

It is my understanding OTA has to get this done before ODOT can start work on the Chickasha bypass as the removal of the existing toll plaza is needed as the bypass will intersect the Bailey very near there.
http://www.odot.org/meetings/a2013/130724/intchg_i44.pdf
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra


Bobby5280

What is the construction time line on that bypass and cloverleaf interchange? Is the project even funded?

I'd love to see that Chickasha toll booth replaced ASAP, but I'm pretty surprised a freeway quality bypass has been proposed for Chickasha. I understand it's mainly to get heavy truck traffic on US-81 diverted away from downtown Chickasha. But that's a common problem in many communities in Oklahoma. The US-69 corridor in Oklahoma from the Red River to Big Cabin is absolutely pigged with heavy truck traffic. That entire road needs to be an extension of I-45. But that's not going to happen any time soon. From my own selfish concerns I'd like to see Rogers Lane in Lawton upgraded to an Interstate from I-44 out West. Right now that glorified street is a dangerous wannabe Interstate which can be upgraded rather easily to full Interstate quality.

J N Winkler

My best guess is that construction will start on the Chickasha tollbooth relocation sometime this summer, assuming one month for contract award and a further one to two months for issuance of notice to proceed.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Other than from I-35 to Tulsa and back several years ago, the Bailey is the only turnpike I've driven in Oklahoma, so I just figured the Chickasha and Walters toll booth were typical Oklahoma (Okie) design. Apparently there are more modern/convenient ones out there? Who knew!

Are there any plans to rehabilitate the Walters service plaza? On last year's trip, we had planned to eat lunch at the McDonald's there, but it had been torn down and we had to push on to Burkburnett. Plus, the welcome center had signs up stating they would be closing their doors the following week (in fact, the return trip may have been on their last day open).

When I get our PikePass soon, I'll probably opt for keeping it detached and simply sticking it on with masking tape during road trips. The primary reason for this is that the windshield location for mounting it is exactly the same as for Mexican import stickers, and I'd rather keep that area uncluttered, especially since our new car has a blue sun strip which pushes all stickers farther down into my line of sight.

My boss today was calling on company toll violations in Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas. One fun conversion was about some guys having gone to Dallas to bring some work trucks to our Tulsa regional office. The driver's weren't aware of Texas' ticketless tolling and unintentionally incurred toll violations on all those vehicles. The Dallas manager didn't want to pay the fines because the vehicles aren't his office's anymore, the Tulsa manager didn't want to pay the fines because the violations didn't happen in his region, et cetera. Fun times.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2016, 07:29:47 PMOther than from I-35 to Tulsa and back several years ago, the Bailey is the only turnpike I've driven in Oklahoma, so I just figured the Chickasha and Walters toll booth were typical Oklahoma (Okie) design. Apparently there are more modern/convenient ones out there? Who knew!

Here's what ORT looks like on the Kilpatrick Turnpike:

Ramp plaza on SH 66 exit ramp

Wilshire Blvd. mainline toll plaza--Exit for cash traffic

Wilshire Blvd. mainline toll plaza--View of mainline toll gantry with RFID readers

The toll gantry on the ramp between I-40 westbound and the Kilpatrick Turnpike northbound, which surprised me and was one main factor in my deciding no longer to try holding the RFID sticker to the windshield or fastening it in place with masking tape, appears not yet to be shown on StreetView imagery.

Quote from: kphoger on May 26, 2016, 07:29:47 PMWhen I get our PikePass soon, I'll probably opt for keeping it detached and simply sticking it on with masking tape during road trips. The primary reason for this is that the windshield location for mounting it is exactly the same as for Mexican import stickers, and I'd rather keep that area uncluttered, especially since our new car has a blue sun strip which pushes all stickers farther down into my line of sight.

I wouldn't hassle with masking tape, since that still leaves an air gap between the RFID sticker and the windshield and OTA advises that air bubbles between the sticker and windshield are enough to cause blown reads.

Unless the Mexicans have changed the design of their import stickers enormously in the last 13 years, the preferred location is the upper left corner of the windshield, which is where my stickers went.  This is not the location either OTA or KTA advise for RFID stickers, though OTA says it is acceptable.

If you put the sticker next to the mirror mount on the passenger side, it will be invisible to the driver since it will be blocked by the mirror body.  I have my KTA sticker mounted in this place and I cannot see it at all unless I lean quite far out of my normal driving position.

One RFID sticker poses no special difficulties.  The trouble comes when you have to run multiple transponders for different toll agencies that do not yet have interoperability.  I am facing this situation right now:  I would like to go up to Chicago next month, and am thinking about setting up an I-Pass account and using a transponder since the northeastern Illinois toll system is quite expensive on a cash basis, infested with electronic-only exits, and has no convenient way to pay missed tolls online (the online facility that is available requires you to make separate payment for each missed toll, for which you are expected to record the time, location, and your license plate number).  I am not sure there is enough space on the driver's side of the mirror mount to place an I-Pass transponder so that it is invisible.

One thing I would like to know, but have not yet asked any toll agencies, is whether there is any special reason to avoid the sun strip as a mounting location.  If it is acceptable for use, then transponders on the sun strip on the passenger's side are unlikely to obstruct the driver's view of overhead signs or traffic signals.  The tinting is inside the windshield, so it is not damaged by using a razor or a solvent like naphtha to remove adhesive residue.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

rte66man

Quote from: Bobby5280 on May 26, 2016, 01:23:19 PM
What is the construction time line on that bypass and cloverleaf interchange? Is the project even funded?

According to the ODOT 8 Year Plan, ROW and Utilities are scheduled for FFY2018:

2016-05-26_23-31-00 by rte66man, on Flickr
When you come to a fork in the road... TAKE IT.

                                                               -Yogi Berra

kphoger

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 26, 2016, 09:38:46 PM
I wouldn't hassle with masking tape, since that still leaves an air gap between the RFID sticker and the windshield and OTA advises that air bubbles between the sticker and windshield are enough to cause blown reads.

Our best friend mounts his PikePass this way exclusively, using it for his personal vehicle, the church bus, his work truck, other family members' vehicles.  Zero issues.

QuoteUnless the Mexicans have changed the design of their import stickers enormously in the last 13 years, the preferred location is the upper left corner of the windshield, which is where my stickers went.  This is not the location either OTA or KTA advise for RFID stickers, though OTA says it is acceptable.

The preferred mounting location for the import permit is immediately to the driver's side of the center mirror.  Because of the blue tinting on our car, I've already considered using the location you describe instead for better visibility; the downside is that, since those stickers leave substantial residue, I would need to work my way down instead of across for subsequent trips in order to maintain that visibility.

QuoteIf you put the sticker next to the mirror mount on the passenger side, it will be invisible to the driver since it will be blocked by the mirror body.  I have my KTA sticker mounted in this place and I cannot see it at all unless I lean quite far out of my normal driving position.

One RFID sticker poses no special difficulties.  The trouble comes when you have to run multiple transponders for different toll agencies that do not yet have interoperability.

Good.  I was wondering if the passenger side was acceptable.  Since the Mexican import stickers have a passive RFID inside, I would rather keep it as far-removed from the PikePass as possible, as the RFID in the import sticker registers time-stamps of our vehicle's movement at interior checkpoints and I wouldn't want to interfere with those transmissions.

QuoteI am facing this situation right now:  I would like to go up to Chicago next month, and am thinking about setting up an I-Pass account and using a transponder since the northeastern Illinois toll system is quite expensive on a cash basis, infested with electronic-only exits, and has no convenient way to pay missed tolls online (the online facility that is available requires you to make separate payment for each missed toll, for which you are expected to record the time, location, and your license plate number).  I am not sure there is enough space on the driver's side of the mirror mount to place an I-Pass transponder so that it is invisible.

It's been a long time since I lived in the Chicago area (moved away from there in 2006) but, back then, you could use the big clunky plastic I-Pass, keep it down in the center console when not in use, and then just hold it up to the windshield at toll gantries.  This was before they went to open-road tolling, and I don't know if the transponder technology has changed since then (I'm not tech-savvy).

QuoteOne thing I would like to know, but have not yet asked any toll agencies, is whether there is any special reason to avoid the sun strip as a mounting location.  If it is acceptable for use, then transponders on the sun strip on the passenger's side are unlikely to obstruct the driver's view of overhead signs or traffic signals.  The tinting is inside the windshield, so it is not damaged by using a razor or a solvent like naphtha to remove adhesive residue.

While it may not present a problem for toll gantries (I don't know either), my main concern is leaving room for the import stickers, and those need to be clearly visible to real-life police officers and immigration agents.






Back to my work story from earlier...  Apparently, not all the toll violations incurred in our company vehicles were from transporting them from state to state.  The bills include up to a year's worth of toll violations, the great majority of which were incurred in Texas.  Yet those vehicles are now in Tulsa (OK) and Springdale (AR) inventory.  One even had violations adding up to about $60.  This is the kind of thing that makes me believe there should always be a cash option for all toll roads.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMOur best friend mounts his PikePass this way exclusively, using it for his personal vehicle, the church bus, his work truck, other family members' vehicles.  Zero issues.

What does he do about tape residue?

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMThe preferred mounting location for the import permit is immediately to the driver's side of the center mirror.  Because of the blue tinting on our car, I've already considered using the location you describe instead for better visibility; the downside is that, since those stickers leave substantial residue, I would need to work my way down instead of across for subsequent trips in order to maintain that visibility.

I don't think they were using RFID back in 2001-02 or 2002-03.  It sounds like there have indeed been substantial changes.  I do remember the adhesive residue (that seems not to have changed), but naphtha will lift it unless it has had a lot of time to bake in the sun, in which case you probably have to use a razor blade as well.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMGood.  I was wondering if the passenger side was acceptable.  Since the Mexican import stickers have a passive RFID inside, I would rather keep it as far-removed from the PikePass as possible, as the RFID in the import sticker registers time-stamps of our vehicle's movement at interior checkpoints and I wouldn't want to interfere with those transmissions.

Multiple RFID stickers in the same location on the windshield won't interfere with each other.  In fact, OTA recommends you just mount stickers next to each other if you have to run multiple stickers (not an uncommon scenario for commercial vehicles).  The key considerations when choosing mounting location are avoiding sightline obscuration and locations where removal is likely to result in damage to surface coatings like anti-glare stippling.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMIt's been a long time since I lived in the Chicago area (moved away from there in 2006) but, back then, you could use the big clunky plastic I-Pass, keep it down in the center console when not in use, and then just hold it up to the windshield at toll gantries.  This was before they went to open-road tolling, and I don't know if the transponder technology has changed since then (I'm not tech-savvy).

I think the tech has changed, but I am not completely sure.  I-Pass has long advertised compatibility with EZ-Pass.  About ten years ago the norm for EZ-Pass transponders was a clunky hardshell case into which you had to load your own batteries (taking care to ensure they had enough juice not to result in blown reads, any toll violations resulting therefrom being your financial responsibility), and mount to the windshield using Velcro strips.  The current I-Pass comes in a slimline plastic case with adhesive backing on one side and does not require batteries, but does require removal from the windshield and mailing back to the Tollway in undamaged condition if you want a refund of the $20 deposit.

The old hardshell transponder with batteries was designed for transfer from vehicle to vehicle, so you could take it with you for business travel, but even then there were gotchas.  With the Illinois Tollway you had to register the license plate of the new vehicle pronto (an online facility was provided for this), otherwise reads with your transponder would not be accepted.  About ten years ago someone came on MTR to complain about being dinged by the Tollway for toll violations for not registering a car he borrowed to take down to Chicagoland with his transponder, and many of the replies implied he was a horrible human being for failing to make it his life's work to study the fine print in his Tollway contract and log on to register the plate of the borrowed car.  (In fairness, MTR had a tendency to bring out the worst in people.)  Nowadays the Tollway is not interested in your license plate number except in the context of paying a missed toll, and a transponder is no longer easily transferable from one vehicle to another once the backing has come off and it has gone onto the windshield.

Back in the old days, people tried to get away with not using the Velcro strips, and simply held the hardshell EZ-Pass transponder to the windshield.  Blown reads resulting from this were treated very unsympathetically by the Eastern toll road agencies (ISTR a Dr. Gridlock article in the Washington Post dealing with this issue).

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMWhile it may not present a problem for toll gantries (I don't know either), my main concern is leaving room for the import stickers, and those need to be clearly visible to real-life police officers and immigration agents.

I think the play here is simply to ensure that the Mexican import sticker is visible to the naked eye (i.e., outside the sun strip, preferably in a location that does not conflict with a toll transponder or your view of overhead fixtures) and work out a procedure for 100% removal of residue so the same location can be reused, instead of having to have the sticker location "walk" along the windshield.

In the future, with full toll interoperability across the US, it should be possible to run just one toll transponder, but the progression will be messy in the next few years.  E.g., if I go ahead and get an I-Pass, and KTA and the Illinois Tollway set up reciprocity with a third toll agency but not with each other, and I then travel on that third agency's facilities, I will have to remove one transponder to avoid double billing, and then figure out how to reinstall it or order a replacement when I want to go back to using KTA and ISTHA facilities.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMBack to my work story from earlier...  Apparently, not all the toll violations incurred in our company vehicles were from transporting them from state to state.  The bills include up to a year's worth of toll violations, the great majority of which were incurred in Texas.  Yet those vehicles are now in Tulsa (OK) and Springdale (AR) inventory.  One even had violations adding up to about $60.  This is the kind of thing that makes me believe there should always be a cash option for all toll roads.

I think cash is on its way out permanently because, after a certain point, it will always be cheaper for toll agencies to adopt a forgiving policy toward online retroactive payment than to maintain 24/7 human staffing at each toll payment point.  Withdrawing union protection from toll collectors (a typical consequence of toll road privatization agreements, such as the Indiana Toll Road concession) merely delays this process.

I wonder if the violations on your work vehicles have anything to do with there being a longstanding expectation of no effective enforcement in Texas for out-of-state plates.  I have heard at least one story of people driving all over Austin on the toll roads on Kansas plates with no comeback.  This is obviously not sustainable over the long term, and Texas has so many toll operators that inevitably some will be more further along the curve in collecting from out-of-staters.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2016, 11:51:49 AM
Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 10:30:27 AMOur best friend mounts his PikePass this way exclusively, using it for his personal vehicle, the church bus, his work truck, other family members' vehicles.  Zero issues.
What does he do about tape residue?

There's not much of a residue issue with masking tape, especially when it hasn't been stuck on for a long time.

QuoteI don't think they were using RFID back in 2001-02 or 2002-03.  It sounds like there have indeed been substantial changes.  I do remember the adhesive residue (that seems not to have changed), but naphtha will lift it unless it has had a lot of time to bake in the sun, in which case you probably have to use a razor blade as well.

The manufacturer of the RFIDs states on its website that this was implemented in 2001.  My only border crossing in 2001 was by taxi, and all the ones before that were only in the border zone (no importation required) or by commercial airline, so I have no personal experience with the stickers before 2006.  Some border agents keep a razor blade in the kiosk to hand you if needed to aid in removing the sticker, but there's always at least some residue left behind nonetheless.  If you know what to look for, you can occasionally find vehicles with multiple residue spots on the windshield for this reason; the neighbor three houses down from me, in fact, has as many as nine spots on his windshield–some barely visible and others a full rectangle.

QuoteMultiple RFID stickers in the same location on the windshield won't interfere with each other.  In fact, OTA recommends you just mount stickers next to each other if you have to run multiple stickers (not an uncommon scenario for commercial vehicles).  The key considerations when choosing mounting location are avoiding sightline obscuration and locations where removal is likely to result in damage to surface coatings like anti-glare stippling.

I think the play here is simply to ensure that the Mexican import sticker is visible to the naked eye (i.e., outside the sun strip, preferably in a location that does not conflict with a toll transponder or your view of overhead fixtures) and work out a procedure for 100% removal of residue so the same location can be reused, instead of having to have the sticker location "walk" along the windshield.

That's great to know.  Sight-line is my main consideration, and knowing that RFIDs can be placed next to each other will make things simpler for me.  I frankly prefer the old location (far upper—driver's side corner of the windshield) for the permit, since it's closest to police officers and border agents, but I suppose the desired location has been moved to near the mirror for the same reason as for toll tags:  visibility by gantries.  I wonder how much of a problem the bottom—driver's side corner is compared to top-center mounting, assuming my sticker locations will end up "walking" downward rather than laterally.

QuoteI wonder if the violations on your work vehicles have anything to do with there being a longstanding expectation of no effective enforcement in Texas for out-of-state plates.  I have heard at least one story of people driving all over Austin on the toll roads on Kansas plates with no comeback.  This is obviously not sustainable over the long term, and Texas has so many toll operators that inevitably some will be more further along the curve in collecting from out-of-staters.

We certainly used to operate under this premise.  Basically, all techs with work trucks plated in states other than Oklahoma or Texas had free reign on the toll roads, confident they would not receive any violations.  This is because the agency Texas contracted out to for toll collection didn't have agreements with any states except Oklahoma and Louisiana (as memory serves) for access to DMV information–i.e., they had no way of finding the personal information attached to a license plate number.  With interoperability now, I would no longer assume that to be true for Kansas, but it probably still remains true for other states.  But many of the trucks in question were Texas-plated, so I'm not sure why the violations were simply accrued for months before sending us the bill.

Before last year, my annual runs to México involved keeping money in a day pass account specific to the Camino Colombia (TX-255).  I would update vehicle information every year, depending on who was driving with us and what license plate numbers had changed.  Over the years, unbeknownst to me, gantries on that road recorded violations–I assume because I failed to update our info correctly or enough in advance.  But, our vehicles always being Kansas-plated, we never received any notice.  Two years ago, however, we used the new TX-130 bypass from Georgetown to Seguin.  A month or two after we got back home, we received the pay-by-mail bill, and–lo! and behold–there were charges included from previous years' violations on the Camino Colombia on both our vehicle and our friend's.  This makes me a little concerned that, if and when Texas gains access to other states' DMV information (such as Kansas), people will get bills in the mail from violations incurred years ago they thought they'd never be fined for.  I wonder if they store these violations in a database, and it's just a matter of time before they one day have a way of sending out the bills.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PMThe manufacturer of the RFIDs states on its website that this was implemented in 2001.  My only border crossing in 2001 was by taxi, and all the ones before that were only in the border zone (no importation required) or by commercial airline, so I have no personal experience with the stickers before 2006.

I didn't photograph or dismantle a sticker on either of my visits to Mexico, but if they were using RFID back then, it was not anything like that used in current-generation KTA or OTA transponder stickers.  The import stickers were flat and were designed to tear if peeled off after an initial application to a windshield (apparently designed to prevent the same sticker from being used in multiple vehicles).  They might have been depleting outdated stock, or perhaps RFID was initially rolled out to vehicles other than private passenger cars.

Preferred mounting location for the import sticker back then was the driver's side upper corner (the first time I entered, the clerk walked out and applied the sticker there, I think so he could claim a M$20 "gratuity" away from the PGR poster in the Banjercito office saying that no gratuities were required and anyone asking for them should be reported).

The KTA transponder sticker (and, I presume, OTA's as well) has a hard bulge in the middle where the RFID chip sits.  Both agencies express a preference for center mounting, but OTA does not insist on it.  I suspect part of the purpose is to minimize the chance that a valid transponder read will be rejected because the sticker was not in the spatial envelope the vehicle overlaps when it goes under the gantry.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PMSome border agents keep a razor blade in the kiosk to hand you if needed to aid in removing the sticker, but there's always at least some residue left behind nonetheless.

The worst case I had (which I could not really shift with naphtha) was after my second visit, but that was largely because I left the residue on for months before I attempted cleanup.  I think I got 100% of the residue from the first sticker with just naphtha.  I didn't try a razor blade on the residue I couldn't move; it might have allowed 100% removal but since I no longer own the car in question, I cannot run out and try it.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PMI wonder how much of a problem the bottom—driver's side corner is compared to top-center mounting, assuming my sticker locations will end up "walking" downward rather than laterally.

I'd be concerned about blown reads if a RFID sticker transponder was mounted at the bottom of the windshield.  My first blown reads with the KTA sticker were with it sitting at the bottom of the windshield, backing side out, no tape affixing it to the windshield (I had first checked the defogger vent to verify that there is a screen preventing credit-card-sized objects from falling into the HVAC box).  Visibility to the gantry is the same as for locations further up the windshield, so I don't know if the sticker has to be above a certain level to generate a valid read, or the air gap between sticker and windshield was too large.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PMBut many of the trucks in question were Texas-plated, so I'm not sure why the violations were simply accrued for months before sending us the bill.

I suspect it has to do with keeping collection expense per unpaid toll down.

Quote from: kphoger on May 27, 2016, 01:41:03 PMBefore last year, my annual runs to México involved keeping money in a day pass account specific to the Camino Colombia (TX-255).  I would update vehicle information every year, depending on who was driving with us and what license plate numbers had changed.  Over the years, unbeknownst to me, gantries on that road recorded violations–I assume because I failed to update our info correctly or enough in advance.  But, our vehicles always being Kansas-plated, we never received any notice.  Two years ago, however, we used the new TX-130 bypass from Georgetown to Seguin.  A month or two after we got back home, we received the pay-by-mail bill, and–lo! and behold–there were charges included from previous years' violations on the Camino Colombia on both our vehicle and our friend's.  This makes me a little concerned that, if and when Texas gains access to other states' DMV information (such as Kansas), people will get bills in the mail from violations incurred years ago they thought they'd never be fined for.  I wonder if they store these violations in a database, and it's just a matter of time before they one day have a way of sending out the bills.

My guess is that the toll agencies will try to collect as far back as they can, with as many fines as they can, and with as little opportunity as possible for the consumer to dispute alleged violations that are arguably a result of an agency's administrative error (such as not correctly attributing your vehicle and passenger information to the Camino Colombia account).  I don't foresee that this behavior will be curbed until the agencies are required to adhere to certain limits on collection procedure, including a provision for certain unpaid tolls to "age out" of violation so that consumers do not get surprise bills for tolls for which they no longer have the documentation to dispute.

I personally would never use a toll road in Texas on a bill-by-mail basis because there have been far too many horror stories of people being falsely billed (right license plate number, wrong state scenario) or receiving bills in the thousands of dollars for small numbers of unpaid tolls.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kphoger

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2016, 04:09:50 PM
I didn't photograph or dismantle a sticker on either of my visits to Mexico, but if they were using RFID back then, it was not anything like that used in current-generation KTA or OTA transponder stickers.  The import stickers were flat and were designed to tear if peeled off after an initial application to a windshield (apparently designed to prevent the same sticker from being used in multiple vehicles).  They might have been depleting outdated stock, or perhaps RFID was initially rolled out to vehicles other than private passenger cars.

For what it's worth, here is a picture of our sticker from 2009.


The current design is the same, just the colors seem to change periodically.  The RFID is not obvious, and I wasn't 100% sure without looking up more info that there's even one in there.  They are indeed flat and designed to tear when peeled off.  I suspect that you, as I, simply weren't aware there was circuitry in there.  I've even been told at the border that I needed to peel more residue off the windshield from the previous year's sticker before she would clear my vehicle for re-entry to the USA; apparently she was worried too much remaining would actually cause issues.

QuoteI personally would never use a toll road in Texas on a bill-by-mail basis because there have been far too many horror stories of people being falsely billed (right license plate number, wrong state scenario) or receiving bills in the thousands of dollars for small numbers of unpaid tolls.

But, unfortunately, that's the only option on some roads without signing up for TxTag.  With the Camino Colombia, we had the option to use a day pass account, but no such option exists for the southern portion of TX-130.  On that stretch of highway, it's either TxTag or pay-by-mail.  K-Tag and PikePass do not work that far south either.  There should always be a cash option.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Brandon

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2016, 11:51:49 AM
I think the tech has changed, but I am not completely sure.  I-Pass has long advertised compatibility with EZ-Pass.  About ten years ago the norm for EZ-Pass transponders was a clunky hardshell case into which you had to load your own batteries (taking care to ensure they had enough juice not to result in blown reads, any toll violations resulting therefrom being your financial responsibility), and mount to the windshield using Velcro strips.  The current I-Pass comes in a slimline plastic case with adhesive backing on one side and does not require batteries, but does require removal from the windshield and mailing back to the Tollway in undamaged condition if you want a refund of the $20 deposit.

The old hardshell transponder with batteries was designed for transfer from vehicle to vehicle, so you could take it with you for business travel, but even then there were gotchas.  With the Illinois Tollway you had to register the license plate of the new vehicle pronto (an online facility was provided for this), otherwise reads with your transponder would not be accepted.  About ten years ago someone came on MTR to complain about being dinged by the Tollway for toll violations for not registering a car he borrowed to take down to Chicagoland with his transponder, and many of the replies implied he was a horrible human being for failing to make it his life's work to study the fine print in his Tollway contract and log on to register the plate of the borrowed car.  (In fairness, MTR had a tendency to bring out the worst in people.)  Nowadays the Tollway is not interested in your license plate number except in the context of paying a missed toll, and a transponder is no longer easily transferable from one vehicle to another once the backing has come off and it has gone onto the windshield.

Back in the old days, people tried to get away with not using the Velcro strips, and simply held the hardshell EZ-Pass transponder to the windshield.  Blown reads resulting from this were treated very unsympathetically by the Eastern toll road agencies (ISTR a Dr. Gridlock article in the Washington Post dealing with this issue).

It's changed slightly, but you're way off.  The transponder is still held to the windshield using dura-lock strips that allow for the transponder to be easily moved from vehicle to vehicle.  In fact, you can still register multiple vehicles with ISTHA for a single I-Pass.  The plate is need if the transponder is not read, not just because you have the vehicle (it's been that way since 2003, when I got a transponder).  if not read, but you have the plate on your account, you will get what is called a vToll.  In other words, a vToll is when the plate is matched to one of the ones you have registered on your account.  The really old transponder with loadable batteries is  from 2000 or before, and those have pretty much all been replaced.  Even the older Mark IV transponder is in the process of being replaced with a newer, slimmer model.

http://www.illinoistollway.com/tolls-and-i-pass/about-i-pass;jsessionid=DFBC44CB90E42D738EBCA258F4E85326

http://www.illinoistollway.com/tolls-and-i-pass/about-i-pass/i-pass-transponder

http://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/10157/66235/I-PASS+Owners+Manual.pdf

(There's a photo of the newest transponder on the Owner's Manual.)
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kphoger

Quote from: J N Winkler on May 27, 2016, 04:09:50 PM
The KTA transponder sticker (and, I presume, OTA's as well) has a hard bulge in the middle where the RFID chip sits.  Both agencies express a preference for center mounting, but OTA does not insist on it.  I suspect part of the purpose is to minimize the chance that a valid transponder read will be rejected because the sticker was not in the spatial envelope the vehicle overlaps when it goes under the gantry.

This actually caused me some misgivings about mounting it to the windshield:  I didn't want to damage the RFID inside the bulge, yet it's important to press firmly all over the sticker in order to mount it completely flat to the glass.  I took a test drive on the turnpike in advance of our trip last week just to be sure my tag worked.  I also figured, if mounting the thing were all that sensitive, then there'd be a LOT more fools out there with nonworking tags.

FWIW, here is how I mounted the PikePass and the Mexican import sticker.  Our friend has basically the same vehicle, and he mounted his inside the blue strip at the top.  Upon our cancellation of the permits heading north on Saturday, the border agent didn't say one word about that not being an acceptable location.  We never did encounter a police stop while in Mexico, though.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2016, 02:27:31 PMThis actually caused me some misgivings about mounting it to the windshield:  I didn't want to damage the RFID inside the bulge, yet it's important to press firmly all over the sticker in order to mount it completely flat to the glass.  I took a test drive on the turnpike in advance of our trip last week just to be sure my tag worked.  I also figured, if mounting the thing were all that sensitive, then there'd be a LOT more fools out there with nonworking tags.

The chips are small enough (smaller than the tip of my little finger) that they are pretty hard to spindle without purposely attacking them with a tool.  They also have some padding from the thick plastic that encases them in the transponder.

When I first got my K-Tag back in April, I think the Southern Terminal still had swinging barriers across the K-Tag lanes.  As of my last transit on July 31 (as part of a day trip to Oklahoma City), they are gone in both directions.  The 20 limit is still signed but I have gotten good reads sailing through at 35.  In the southbound direction (not sure about northbound), there are now three signs mounted on the same post on the K-Tag lane approach:  the top one tells motorists to keep moving, the middle says "Tolling Video Enforced," and the bottom says "This Plaza."  I suspect barrier removal is going to be an ongoing process, though I don't recall seeing a schedule for it in any issue of the "Turnpike Times" e-newsletter that has come out in the last three months.

Quote from: kphoger on August 09, 2016, 02:27:31 PMFWIW, here is how I mounted the PikePass and the Mexican import sticker.  Our friend has basically the same vehicle, and he mounted his inside the blue strip at the top.  Upon our cancellation of the permits heading north on Saturday, the border agent didn't say one word about that not being an acceptable location.  We never did encounter a police stop while in Mexico, though.


I will try to remember to post a picture of the current layout of transponders in my roadtrip vehicle; it turns out the inside rearview mirror is large enough to hide both a K-Tag and an I-Pass from the driver's seat.  (The I-Pass, by the way, has worked quite well, except for one suspected blown read when I zipped through Plaza 37 at 40 instead of the posted 15 limit, and got a yellow flash instead of the usual blue flash.  However, when I checked my account later, I discovered that transit had been recorded, the correct toll had been deducted, and it was not a video toll, so the transponder read must have been good.)

Neither of the two Mexican temporary vehicle import stickers you have posted pictures of, from 2009 and 2016, look anything like the stickers I got in 2001 and 2002.  Those were square, not oblong, and were both smaller and of uniform density throughout.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Brandon

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 10, 2016, 12:28:42 AM
I will try to remember to post a picture of the current layout of transponders in my roadtrip vehicle; it turns out the inside rearview mirror is large enough to hide both a K-Tag and an I-Pass from the driver's seat.  (The I-Pass, by the way, has worked quite well, except for one suspected blown read when I zipped through Plaza 37 at 40 instead of the posted 15 limit, and got a yellow flash instead of the usual blue flash.  However, when I checked my account later, I discovered that transit had been recorded, the correct toll had been deducted, and it was not a video toll, so the transponder read must have been good.)

The yellow means that you dipped slightly below $10 when the toll was recorded.  I've gotten the same from time to time.  By the time you reached the next toll plaza, the amount you requested to be added as charged to your card on file (typically $20 or $40 - mine is set at $40).
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

J N Winkler

Quote from: Brandon on August 10, 2016, 01:20:23 PMThe yellow means that you dipped slightly below $10 when the toll was recorded.  I've gotten the same from time to time.  By the time you reached the next toll plaza, the amount you requested to be added as charged to your card on file (typically $20 or $40 - mine is set at $40).

That can't have been the reason here, since I have yet to trigger replenishment.  I opened the account with $30 ($10 transponder deposit plus $20 available for tolls), set the replenishment threshold at $10, and did no more than $9.15 worth of driving on Tollway infrastructure while I was in Chicago.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

route56

Quote from: J N Winkler on August 10, 2016, 12:28:42 AM
When I first got my K-Tag back in April, I think the Southern Terminal still had swinging barriers across the K-Tag lanes.  As of my last transit on July 31 (as part of a day trip to Oklahoma City), they are gone in both directions.  The 20 limit is still signed but I have gotten good reads sailing through at 35.  In the southbound direction (not sure about northbound), there are now three signs mounted on the same post on the K-Tag lane approach:  the top one tells motorists to keep moving, the middle says "Tolling Video Enforced," and the bottom says "This Plaza."  I suspect barrier removal is going to be an ongoing process, though I don't recall seeing a schedule for it in any issue of the "Turnpike Times" e-newsletter that has come out in the last three months.

The same "Video Tolling enforced" signs are present eastbound at the Eastern Terminal. However, all 20 MPH signing has been removed heading east, making for an implied 35 MPH zone through the K-TAG lane. However, the westbound K-TAG lane does not indicate video enforced tolling and, although the gates are not present, there is still a 20 MPH limit.

It's been a while since I checked East Topeka, but I think there are no video enforced lanes and the K-TAG lanes are 20 MPH in both directions.
Peace to you, and... don't drive like my brother.

R.P.K.

mtantillo

Multiple RFID tags on a windshield shouldn't be a problem....unless more than one is valid for paying the toll, in which case you run the risk of double billing. But an I-Pass tag with Florida SunPass and TxTag stickers is not a problem. If the Texas toll lane reads the Florida transponder, it is "junk" data that is basically ignored. The Texas tag will be read simultaneously and will process as a valid toll payment.

But when FL and Texas go interoperable, then pick one account and close the other.

bmorrill

Quote from: mtantillo on August 22, 2016, 01:32:39 AM
Multiple RFID tags on a windshield shouldn't be a problem....

At one time I had both a TxTag and a PikePass sticker on my car. The PikePass instruction sheet said that as long as the stickers weren't touching I was good-to-go.

mtantillo

Back in the day, there used to be a problem with multiple transponders. In the early days of E-ZPass, the system was programmed to only look for one transponder per vehicle. If the first transponder it detected was a Virginia Smart Tag (from the days before interop between those two systems), it would return an invalid result and trigger a violation, and would never 'look again' for another valid transponder. So I specifically remember guidance from Smart Tag telling customers to put their E-ZPass away when in VA and put their Smart Tag away when in E-ZPass territory if you had both. But technology is advanced enough now where this type of malfunction no longer occurs.

Bobby5280

If I recall correctly, if you have both a NTTA Toll Tag and a OK Pike Pass you'll get double charged driving on the managed lanes on Dallas Fort Worth super highways. I don't know how Texas' 3 different toll tags work together or conflict with each other (or with OK Pike Pass). If I had a TX Tag sticker I could drive on a lot more toll roads in Texas, but not all of them (a couple in Houston take only the HCTRA tags). But I still might get double billed driving in Dallas since TX Tag and Pike Pass both get dinged on DFW toll roads.

These new sticker-based RFID tags can't be removed from a windshield without damaging them once they're applied to the glass. It's not like the old days with the soap bar style Pike Pass transponders that were much easier to put away when not needed.

Even if OTA, NTTA and other agencies can get their toll gates to properly read multiple tags on a windshield and bill correctly for them, I'm still 100% for simplifying everything down to where a driver needs only one tag for any toll road. Having a bunch of sticker spam/trash cluttering the center of a windshield is stupid. The visual garbage on the glass needs to be kept down to a minimum. Needing to have only one tag also translates into needing to maintain only one turnpike account.

dfwmapper

All of the Texas tags are accepted on all toll roads in Texas, including oddballs like the Camino Colombia and the express lanes in El Paso. They may or may not actually be signed as such, but they still work.

kphoger

But not all highway tolls, I still should point out. AFAIK, no tags are accepted at border bridges.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

lordsutch

Quote from: kphoger on August 22, 2016, 10:22:36 PM
But not all highway tolls, I still should point out. AFAIK, no tags are accepted at border bridges.

There is a "Laredo Trade Tag," which I gather is popular with drayage haulers (the Mexican truckers who haul stuff from Mexican terminals into the border zone for transshipment on US/Canadian trucks) and is required for access to the SENTRI lane at Bridge 2. Apparently there's some way to get it associated with a TxTag account but web-accessible information is scarce.

kphoger

Quote from: lordsutch on August 22, 2016, 11:01:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 22, 2016, 10:22:36 PM
But not all highway tolls, I still should point out. AFAIK, no tags are accepted at border bridges.

There is a "Laredo Trade Tag," which I gather is popular with drayage haulers (the Mexican truckers who haul stuff from Mexican terminals into the border zone for transshipment on US/Canadian trucks) and is required for access to the SENTRI lane at Bridge 2. Apparently there's some way to get it associated with a TxTag account but web-accessible information is scarce.

Information on the subject may be scarce, but the following is quite pertinent:

Quote from: TxTag – Camino Colombia – Frequently Asked QuestionsIf you open a TxTag account, you should not install the TxTag sticker if you have a Laredo Trade Tag on your windshield.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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