NC Senate Drafts Anti-Left Lane Hog Bill

[mvak36]

You are not technically "blocking the left lane" as long as you are acutally passing cars in the right lane.

I agree with this lol. I was driving back to KC from St. Louis one day and I ended up staying in the left lane all the way from Warrenton to just east of Columbia. There were so many trucks that day it was crazy. It was a long line of cars in the left lane and I kept pace with the car in front of me.

But, I usually move over unless I'm passing someone. There are times when the car ahead of me is going slow and I can't merge into the right lane so I'm basically stuck behind the slow car (and a bunch of cars behind me are stuck too). I'd be favor of all states passing this kind of law.

[1995hoo]

What slorydn1 describes is what I sometimes call the "Grandpa cruise control pass." You're on an Interstate or similar with two lanes on a side, say like I-81 in Virginia, and you come up on a line of trucks in the right lane that are all going just a smidgen under the speed limit. Grandpa is up ahead in his big old American boat (I always picture a big Oldsmobile or similar) with the cruise control set right at the speed limit, so he's been catching up with the trucks, and he decides to pass them but leaves the cruise control set and does not touch the accelerator. Traffic piles up in both lanes since nobody can go anywhere, and it sometimes gets worse when one of the truck drivers pulls out in front of Grandpa and forms a wall.

[orulz]

The people I have a problem are the douchebags that run door handle to door handle with one car for miles on end, with nothing in front of them in either lane for a quarter mile or more. Then, if they do finally get past the last car on the right they don't move over

Yes, I agree I don't like it when drivers do this. But it's not that big of a deal to me. Very seldom am I stuck in such a situation for more than 5 minutes or so, so I just relax, give my 2~3 seconds of safe following distance, and eventually one side winds up ahead of the other. Never in my life have I had to drive across the entire country stuck behind some people doing that. If I did, I think I would just get off at the next exit or rest area and take a breather for a while. Not worth the stress.

However, I encounter this far less often than I do tailgaters in BMWs who impatiently aren't satisfied with somebody passing another car at +5mph. I guess it must be getting in the way of their "Ultimate Driving Experience."

This is why I am skeptical of any heavy handed "Keep Left Except To Pass" law. It encourages a sense of entitlement that leads to even more impatience and dangerous driving behavior like tailgating. In effect, legitimizing it. The fact that NJ has such a law makes perfect sense to me, given the relative ubiquity of impatient drivers and tailgating in that state. (No offense to any NJ forumers, but I think you'll probably agree that NJ drivers are pretty impatient!) (But at least they use their turn signals, unlike here in NC...)

[kphoger]

Without a left lane law, people still feel entitled to the left lane, because keeping right is common courtesy. But what having no left lane law does is to allow left lane hogs a similar sense of entitlement. A person holding up traffic by going 5 to 10 mph slower than everyone else in the left lane is doing nothing illegal without a left lane law, and that just shouldn't be so.

[orulz]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

[kphoger]

I'd rather see speed demons tailgating every so often while someone is completing a slow pass than see speed demons hot-dog from right to left to right to left lane because the other drivers aren't making way.

[Thing 342]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.

[kalvado]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.

Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both  from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...

[Rothman]

I don't see how per-lane speed limits would help and find their benefit specious at best where they have been implemented.

The only answer is for the slower vehicle to move over.

[kalvado]

I don't see how per-lane speed limits would help and find their benefit specious at best where they have been implemented.

The only answer is for the slower vehicle to move over.

Well, first step is realistic speed limit 
But overall, there is some - probably Gaussian - distributions of comfortable speeds. Naturally in moderate density traffic only a few can move at comfortable speed, and most have to go with speed of the lane. So best case scenario, as I can see it, is establishing several speed "buckets" to choose from - that indeed slows down high end of spectrum -= but we want to do that anyway.
Now that approach opens up possibility of RObin Hood tax (aka speeding tickets) for everyone in left lane with artificially low speed limits..
And yes, per-lane limits wouldn't work if they are well below natural flow speed...

[broadhurst04]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

This seems impossible. A person cannot tailgate without another to be stuck behind, and a person cannot hog the left lane without someone to impede. They exist as a result of one another, and thus the problems caused by them are equal and the same. Solving one problem should therefore take care of the other.

Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both  from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...

Excellent suggestion!

[kphoger]

Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both  from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...

I've driven on such a highway.  The free highway between Monterrey and Saltillo (Mexico) has/had a speed limit of 80 km/h for the right lane and a speed limit of 100 km/h for the left lane.  It seems fine at first glance, but what if you want to drive 90 km/h?  You would technically be required to drive in the left lane exclusively and, if anyone wanted to pass you, you'd have to slow down just to make way for them.  It doesn't make things any better.

[kalvado]

Probably true solution would be implementing gradient of speed limits, with say 10 MPH step per lane. That would remove entitlement both  from someone going 55 in left lane, and someone going speed limit+40...

I've driven on such a highway.  The free highway between Monterrey and Saltillo (Mexico) has/had a speed limit of 80 km/h for the right lane and a speed limit of 100 km/h for the left lane.  It seems fine at first glance, but what if you want to drive 90 km/h?  You would technically be required to drive in the left lane exclusively and, if anyone wanted to pass you, you'd have to slow down just to make way for them.  It doesn't make things any better.

None of those is going to be ideal.
Imagine you're going speed limit in right lane, and approaching someone at SL-10. Left lane flows at SL+15 around you slowpokes. What would you do?
Or you're comfortable driving 35 on 1-lane road posted at 45.. Maybe you are just driving a heavy truck?
Any restriction and any traffic pattern would make someone uncomfortable...

[orulz]

My problem is the slippery slope here.

Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?

Take the below situation:

Code Select Expand


LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5  >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) -gap-- (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >)


There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?

I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.

[kalvado]

My problem is the slippery slope here.

Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?

Take the below situation:

Code Select Expand


LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5  >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) -gap-- (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >)


There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?

I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.

I've seen people who wanted to have left lane open for passing when right is congested and moving at 30 mph...
And  that is something I think may be addressed with split and realistic  speed limit - no need to guess if most people are ok with SL+15 in left lane, or local tradition is SL+30...

[VTGoose]

My problem is the slippery slope here.

Is the idea that somebody in the left lane, ALWAYS, is obligated to move over, whether due to laws or due to just out of consdieration, whenever somebody faster than them comes up from behind, absolutely as soon as possible?

Take the below situation:

Code Select Expand


LEFT LANE : (+25 >) (+10 >) (+5  >) ---------gap----------------------------------
RIGHT LANE: (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) -gap-- (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >) (-5  >)


There is a +5 car in the left lane, followed by me, wanting to go +10, followed by a car that wants to go +25. They are passing a long line of cars going -5 in the right lane. At some point in the line, there is a gap. Not a large gap, but just large enough for one car to get over. Is the +5 driver obligated to do legally? Should they do so out of consideration? Even though they are still clearly going above the speed limit, and still clearly passing the slower cars in the right lane? If the +5 driver doesn't take the gap, Am *I*, the +10 driver, obligated to get out of the way of the +25 driver (who is tailgating me by the way) so that he can proceed to tailgate the +5 driver and try to make him speed up and get right too?

I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.

This is pretty much the discussion from years ago on misc.transit.road with the DIGs ("Damn! I'm Good") expecting anyone and everyone to keep the left lane clear for them to travel at excessive speeds without having to slow down.

In the case you present, the first car in the left lane is in "control" and as long as he/she is passing that line of slower vehicles at a reasonable clip, then anyone behind who wants to go even faster has to wait. Just because there is a gap that would require that driver to hit the brakes hard to fit in doesn't mean that is what should be done (although the DIG drivers would expect it, with the guy followed by the second car squeezing into whatever space remains). You are correct in believing you don't need to get out of the way of the third car just so he can go "faster" -- unless he has flashing red or red/blue lights.

Bruce in Blacksburg

[broadhurst04]

I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.

THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.

[Gnutella]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.

[kalvado]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.

Gnutella, I prefer to put it in a different way: Always remember that you're not the only idiot on the road.
That really helps when considering both actions of other drivers, as well as your actions as they see them.

[orulz]

I see both 'left lane hogs' and 'tailgating jerks' as a problem. My personal observations indicate that tailgaters FAR outnumber 'left lane hogs', and are far more dangerous to boot. If you can solve the left lane hogs WITHOUT making tailgating worse, then feel free. I continue to be skeptical.

"Tailgating jerks" are a symptom. "Left-lane hogs" are the disease.

The number of times I have been tailgated while going +10 while truly passing in the passing lane suggests otherwise. Tailgating is a disease all by itself.

[compdude787]

Yeah, I don't understand the need to tailgate someone who is going over the speed limit. As long as the person in front of me is driving at or above the speed limit and is passing cars in the lane(s) to his/her right, then I'm happy. But if they are being a slowpoke or a left lane hog, then I get mad at them.

[jeffandnicole]

What orulz alludes to is the syndrome of 'I make the rules'. 

One rule is: Don't drive over the speed limit.
Another rule is: Keep Right Except to Pass.

Granted, the KRETP can vary from state to state, but at the very least it's common courtesy.  One rule isn't more important than any other rule.  The fact that you're going +10 is meaningless.  I've heard many people say "What...(my speed) isn't fast enough"?  It doesn't matter.  You don't set the rules.   Sure, you're going 10 over.  Maybe most people go 15 over.  Or 20 over.  It doesn't matter.  If you're going 10 over and there's a stack of people behind you, complete your passing and merge back over.  Or...pass the person you're passing, merge back over, let others pass you, then merge back to pass the next person. 

Once you're going over the speed limit, it doesn't matter what speed you're going.  It's against the law.  Trying to say that 10 over is fast enough not only is wrong, but if you are intentionally holding others back because you decided you make the rules, then it's also a form of aggressive driving.

If you think the speed limit is the ultimate rule, then by all means, drink a beer while you drive.  When you get pulled over, let the cop know it's OK to drink the beer - you were only going 10 mph over the limit.  Clearly, that doesn't make sense.  Neither does saying a certain speed over the limit is fine.

[orulz]

Never did I say I don't get over after completing my pass, I still get tailgated all the same.

My number one priority when driving cannot and will not be to never ever cause anyone to slow down behind me. Sorry. If you think that makes me a left lane hog, then so be it.

Here is another scenario. Driving in fairly light traffic. There are two lines of cars in the right lane separated by a decent distance, but not too long, say 200 yards. I pass the first group, note nobody is immediately behind me, and decide to stay left. I catch up to and begin overtaking the second group of cars. At some point while overtaking them, a car catches up to me from behind. Was I obligated to get right between the two groups, slow down, and wait for the faster driver to go by? Even though it means I would have to slow down in the right lane? I'm not talking about a long line of cars piled up behind me. Just one. Why would it be more important for that person to go their desired speed than me? Especially since I am truly passing cars, using the left lane fort its  intended purpose.

[kphoger]

I think too many people think that driving in the left lane should give them a free pass to go however fast they want and expect traffic to part like the red sea before Moses. Again, that encourages tailgating.

THIS. The right way to pass is to accelerate TO the posted speed limit get around cars moving well BELOW the posted speed limit (ex. - 60 in a 70). The wrong way to pass is to accelerate ABOVE the speed limit (and stay there) to get around cars that are moving AT the posted speed limit. You shouldn't be able to use one law as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with.

If someone else's speed determines whether or not you think he is entitled to get around you, then you are indeed using one law (the speed limit) as an excuse to break another one you don't agree with (keep right).

[slorydn1]

Never did I say I don't get over after completing my pass, I still get tailgated all the same.

My number one priority when driving cannot and will not be to never ever cause anyone to slow down behind me. Sorry. If you think that makes me a left lane hog, then so be it.

Here is another scenario. Driving in fairly light traffic. There are two lines of cars in the right lane separated by a decent distance, but not too long, say 200 yards. I pass the first group, note nobody is immediately behind me, and decide to stay left. I catch up to and begin overtaking the second group of cars. At some point while overtaking them, a car catches up to me from behind. Was I obligated to get right between the two groups, slow down, and wait for the faster driver to go by? Even though it means I would have to slow down in the right lane? I'm not talking about a long line of cars piled up behind me. Just one. Why would it be more important for that person to go their desired speed than me? Especially since I am truly passing cars, using the left lane fort its  intended purpose.

In the cases you mentioned in this and the previous post, I don't consider that to be hogging, and I don't have a problem with being behind the car that is doing that, as long as they finish up and get over after they clear the last car they are passing. I too have found myself passing the lead car of the first group only to note that getting over would mean that I am now going to be about to run over tail end Charlie of the second group, and I stay in the left lane to pass that group as well.

I don't get tailgated very often, TBH. When it does happen, it is usually because I am being held up by someone else in front of me preventing me from completing my pass so I can clear the lane. I usually find myself getting pissed off at 2 people then: the dipstick who is camping and the moron who is tailgating me as if I had some way to remedy the situation that the camper is creating.