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Road Rage

Started by ParrDa, September 14, 2017, 09:05:15 PM

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kkt

You think there are no unreported fender benders in Boston or other cities?

I've seen people driving on sidewalks in Seattle a couple of times... to get around a vehicle blocking traffic in the street usually.


jakeroot

Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 05:21:40 PM
I've seen people driving on sidewalks in Seattle a couple of times... to get around a vehicle blocking traffic in the street usually.

Of all the cities in the PNW, I've always thought Seattle drivers were the best. They hardly look at their phone, don't doddle along (always moving at speed limit or higher), always maneuver around turning traffic (as you describe), scoot over to allow oncoming drivers to overtakes stopped vehicles, always pull forward to turn left (rather than camping at the stop line à la every other PNW city), and so on.

My measure of "best" and "worst" is not the number of crashes. A minor fender bender is not a big deal. The "worst" drivers are those that are slow, inattentive, and generally uninterested in being in a car at all, and therefore suck at driving in general. The kind of people that immediately start using their phones at a red light.

jakeroot

Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 10:35:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 03:31:18 PM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:52:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:47:57 PM
I was attempting to speak from the perspective of a driver who has the opportunity to move over, but chooses not to (instead, forcing their opinion of a safe speed on the driver behind them by brake-checking them into oblivion). If I was in your situation (nowhere to move, but already overtaking), I would signal right, and try to squeeze in to the line of cars in the number 2 lane, to let the fast driver by. I think it's very selfish to enforce your own speed limit on the road. I understand the temptation is to get angry. You feel like you're doing everything right (except speeding, you hypocrite :-D). But the only sure-fire way to diffuse the situation is to simply not let the tailgating happen. And the only way to do that is to move out of the way.

IMO that's where your logic, though not your intention, is flawed. Keep in mind that by being in the left lane and passing, you are forcing your speed on everyone else anyways, tailgaters or otherwise.
Moving over at all costs will likely get you some enemies in the right (or center) lane and disrupt the flow of the left lane as well, since you'll inevitably have to slow down first.
I'm all about efficiency  :D

That's kind of a straw man argument, don't you think? I was talking about a very specific scenario.

Actually, you were talking about two very specific scenarios. My response was to what you said about the second scenario: (nowhere to move, but already overtaking). I assumed everything you said afterwards was with reference to the second scenario. My apologies if not.

Either way, if you'd like to call my response an argument, it's certainly not a baseless one. One does not have to be brake-checking to be in control of the maximum speed others can drive on the freeway. If I'm going 70 in the left lane, passing someone doing 60, who is passing someone doing 55, I am in effect "enforcing" my speed on anyone who approaches (until I finish passing and move over). And there is nothing wrong or selfish about me doing that.
As to your suggested means of dealing with scenario 2; I think it's obvious that it would lead to the effects I mentioned.
I guess I believe there's a happy medium between controlling others and letting others control you.
And I also believe that it's possible to neither diffuse nor exacerbate a tailgating scenario; let them ride your bumper until you're finished passing.

The "scenarios" all have the same root cause: someone is tailgating you (however close that is, is up to you). My suggestion to solve this was to move over. Signal first (preferrably) and then change lanes. You then proposed the idea that this may actually annoy someone else. While that certainly may be true (cutting in close can be annoying), I was under the impression that we were talking about drivers who are "road raging", which is to say, driving extremely close, perhaps gesturing or honking (maybe even leaning out the window and swearing), and how we might deal with them. If you cut someone off, attempting to get out of the way of someone raging on you, only to find that you enraged someone else, then just change lanes again, or pull off into the shoulder, and assess your life.

You are only forcing your speed on someone else if you aren't keeping right. In the scenario you describe, yes, you are enforcing a 70 mph limit on the left lane. That's not a problem unless someone is approaching from behind, or is already right up on you. Or, if you are able to move right, but refuse because you think 70 (or whatever speed you're doing) is plenty (the case for a lot people, and IMO the cause of a lot of road rage).

jakeroot

Quote from: ParrDa on September 19, 2017, 11:30:54 PM
^ So I guess we were envisioning different levels of road rage. In most cases, tailgating is not that severe. If it was to the point you described (and I hope I'm never in a situation that escalates that far) then I don't have any problem with your solution. I think at that point others on the road would realize your intentions and allow you to get out of the way.

As far as a standard tailgating scenario (which IMO is when headlights are not visible) where no ones life or vehicle is in danger, I think we're on the same page and my points still stand  :D

Note that I said "perhaps". I wasn't envisioning every scenario involving gesturing and horn-blaring. Even if someone was following close (no headlights visible seems very reasonable to me), I'd consider that to be a mild display of anger/rage. I'd still move over as quickly as possible. Here in Seattle, the standard rush-hour following distance (when travelling between 45 and 65 mph) is about .5 to 1 second...maybe? If someone gets closer than that, they clearly are in a rush and I see no reason to get in their way. I'd signal right, wait for a gap, and then move over (I wouldn't cram in). On a two-lane road, I'd definitely pull off into the shoulder. The longer they have to wait behind me, the angrier they'll probably get.

Quote from: ParrDa on September 19, 2017, 11:30:54 PM
Back on a strictly thread-related note, I would like to think that I would never do anything to make someone mad enough to fly into road rage. Personally, I never regard my own speed as "fast enough". I think the combination of keeping right and moving a little faster than the "average" speed, is the best way to avoid generating anger on the road. If someone wants to pass me, I let them by and take it as an indication that I can/should go faster, something I'm rarely afraid to do  :D
Therefore,  if I'm in a road rage incident (And I'm starting to think I'm fairly liberal with the use of that term), it's probably me that was mad first.

Thank fuck! The number of people who feel their own speed is suddenly the maximum limit is alarming. I see it all the time, even in my parents (who drive just as fast as I do (usually 10-15 over on the freeways)). I try to tell them, but they always respond with the same "I think XX is fast enough". Total bullshit.

I pretty much drive the same as you. I always let faster drivers by, stay right when possible, don't get angry at people driving faster than me, etc. Self-righteousness is a terrible trait for a driver.

1995hoo

Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).

Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.
On this, we agree. Tailgating in the right lane is rare enough in my area that I'd presume they're either irate or in an emergency.

See, people here tailgate everywhere. Last night someone was riding my rear bumper in the Metro parking garage. I wasn't crawling, but I don't speed through parking either because of cars suddenly backing out without looking, pedestrians appearing from between big SUVs, etc.

If you go 65 mph in the right lane on the Beltway (speed limit is 55), usually someone will come up close behind you. If that happens to me, I won't move. There are three other lanes to the left.
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jakeroot

Quote from: 1995hoo on September 20, 2017, 08:39:01 AM
Quote from: ParrDa on September 18, 2017, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2017, 01:25:56 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 18, 2017, 07:35:43 AM
For those who say "get out of the tailgater's way," do you feel that way even when it's happening in the far right lane? People around here will tailgate in every lane at any time. I certainly feel no obligation whatsoever to speed up or move out of the way if I'm in the far right lane (I do try to move left to accommodate traffic entering the highway, but that's a separate situation.....and there are people around here who will cut over to the right into the acceleration lane to pass).

Unlike most people, I prefer to diffuse situations, instead of exacerbating them. In the case of someone tailgating in the right lane, I would make every attempt to get out of their way. Either by speeding up to allow them to change lanes, pulling into the shoulder, etc. If someone is tailgating in the right lane, they must be desperate. I see no reason to get in their way.
On this, we agree. Tailgating in the right lane is rare enough in my area that I'd presume they're either irate or in an emergency.

See, people here tailgate everywhere. Last night someone was riding my rear bumper in the Metro parking garage. I wasn't crawling, but I don't speed through parking either because of cars suddenly backing out without looking, pedestrians appearing from between big SUVs, etc.

If you go 65 mph in the right lane on the Beltway (speed limit is 55), usually someone will come up close behind you. If that happens to me, I won't move. There are three other lanes to the left.

Just to clarify, if they come up on you in the right lane, and get close enough that the headlamps aren't visible, you won't do anything to try and change things? I also don't like people riding my bumper. But, unlike a lot of people it would seem, I actually try and do things to get them off my bumper. Brake-checking is dumb because you're likely to cause an accident. I'd change lanes and just let them by. Especially if there were two or three packed lanes to my left (i.e. they are attempting to pass on the right).

jakeroot

Quote from: ParrDa on September 21, 2017, 12:58:42 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 20, 2017, 12:29:14 AM
Note that I said "perhaps". I wasn't envisioning every scenario involving gesturing and horn-blaring. Even if someone was following close (no headlights visible seems very reasonable to me), I'd consider that to be a mild display of anger/rage. I'd still move over as quickly as possible. Here in Seattle, the standard rush-hour following distance (when travelling between 45 and 65 mph) is about .5 to 1 second...maybe? If someone gets closer than that, they clearly are in a rush and I see no reason to get in their way. I'd signal right, wait for a gap, and then move over (I wouldn't cram in). On a two-lane road, I'd definitely pull off into the shoulder. The longer they have to wait behind me, the angrier they'll probably get.

See, I don't necessarily think of tailgating as a sign of anger. I mean, sure, if you did something to obstruct flow first, or if they continue getting closer or do it for a long time, then it becomes obvious. But I wouldn't move over just for them the second they get too close, I would finish passing. Though I do agree that they'll probably become more angry over time, that's their problem, and I'll usually find a gap in traffic in the next lane over within a mile or so anyways (unless there's congestion, which stands alone IMO).

I wouldn't change lanes within seconds of them approaching me. I'm extremely observant, but even I will wait a couple seconds before determining whether or not they are just being light on the brakes (using just enough brakes to not hit me, but not enough to maintain a reasonable following distance). When braking (since I drive a 6-speed), I will downshift when I see cars slowing in front of me. I will only use the brakes if my downshift doesn't provide enough braking power to keep from getting really close. Sometimes I get really close when doing this, close enough that I can sense the annoyance of the driver in front of me. I usually back off quickly to keep them from attempting to brake-check me.

JKRhodes

I've had the finger directed at me twice; once, when I was 17, headed to Phoenix, before US 60 was divided near Superior. Long line of cars, SUV was tailgating me and I had to hit the brakes to avoid a cyclist coming into the lane from the shoulder. SUV driver took this as an act of brake checking, had his passengers flip me off once they got ahead of me.

The other instance was about a year ago, at a 4-way stop; high school kid didn't know the order, we both entered at the same time without slowing, and they put up a finger as they passed by. Caught on my dash cam.

With regard to the big discussion on tailgating and brake checking earlier in the thread, I try my best to appease tailgaters, to the point that as soon as I see someone approaching my back bumper, I get into the other lane. This gets irksome when they get on my bumper but refuse to pass; I will go 5-10 over if conditions allow it... I will not be somebody's trail blazer. Pass or get off my ass.

webny99

Have you ever been mad another driver and reacted in a way that you now regret?

I did just that, this morning on NY 104. The left lane camping (and slow passing) on that road through Webster is terrible. So my strategy is to show by example, and move into every available space in the right lane. A bit of lane changing, sure, but I'm convinced that it improves overall flow.
Anyways, this morning, two drivers around me must gotten annoyed with my switching back and forth, and decided not to let me back into the left lane. Well, that irked me, because had they moved right (there was plenty of space to do so), I would not have been on the right in the first place. So I sped up and wedged my way back in where there clearly was no longer space to do so, causing the Buick behind me to hit the brakes and give me a not-so-friendly honk. I then tapped my own brakes, put on my four-way-flashers for about ten blinks or so, and then roared off.
Now, I feel like an idiot for doing that when there were so many better and less disruptive solutions, none of which would have resulted in irking other drivers  :-( But I still hate left-lane campers  ;-)

abefroman329

Quote from: kkt on September 18, 2017, 04:49:57 PM
Quote from: Brandon on September 18, 2017, 10:36:51 AM
That's about par for the course here.  Chicagoland is the bad driving capital of the US.

Boston.

Maryland, and I saw the following while living in Virginia:

I was living on the south side of a one-way street going eastbound, three lanes wide.  A woman pulled over while my roommate and I were outside and asked for directions.  We gave them to her, they involved "go back the other way."  She thanked us, got back in her car, made a U-turn, and drove the wrong way up the one-way street.

Bruce

Yesterday, while walking in Renton, Washington, I was assaulted by a driver. She got out of her car and punched me in the face.

My crime? Using a crosswalk and crossing a slip lane when I had a legal right to do so. A driver had stopped there and waited for me (as required by state law, and common courtesy), while the lady behind him (the one who punched me) honked like there was no tomorrow.

Looking at legal options right now, but I'm sick and tired of pedestrians being treated like garbage in this country.

Flint1979

In all my experiences driving I would say Boston is the worst city to drive in. Combine the narrow streets with people that don't know how to drive, they weave in and out of lanes, tailgate excessively. It's really not just Boston either but all of Massachusetts as Springfield and Worcester are the same way.

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on February 14, 2018, 08:43:41 PM
Yesterday, while walking in Renton, Washington, I was assaulted by a driver. She got out of her car and punched me in the face.

My crime? Using a crosswalk and crossing a slip lane when I had a legal right to do so. A driver had stopped there and waited for me (as required by state law, and common courtesy), while the lady behind him (the one who punched me) honked like there was no tomorrow.

Looking at legal options right now, but I'm sick and tired of pedestrians being treated like garbage in this country.

This sounds like an edge case. I'm aware of the occasional difficulties faced by pedestrians at slip lanes, but this is far worse than the errant "get out of my way" honk. How exactly did it escalate to the point that a woman punched you? I don't hear of that happening very often.

webny99

^ I agree. People are (usually) more courteous and forgiving in situations involving pedestrians. Car vs. person is not even close to fair game - and besides, who gets irked by pedestrians? We all know they have the right-of-way, and it's not like you're encountering them on high-speed roads anyways.

In fact, as a general principle, I'd say road rage is rare period on non-freeways. That leads me to conclude that this case is... well... a little strange, for lack of better terms.

Beltway

#64
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2017, 07:29:18 AM
Quote from: plain on September 14, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
The last time I actually got that mad myself was about 13 years ago, I was on I-64 EB just east of Exit 192 in the left lane using my pop's '80 Chevy pickup to move a couple of dressers (not the greatest stopping power as you can imagine). A lady in a convertible got in the left lane and then slowed all of a sudden to turn into the "authorized vehicles only" cut to perform a U-turn. I slammed on brakes and came within inches of hitting her. I threw the Big Gulp I was drinking and it landed right on the back of her head... that was followed by me yelling "bitch!!!"
Nowadays in Virginia they might prosecute you for that.

Technically assault and battery practically anywhere.  Even throwing water on someone in an aggressive manner could as well.  Even when they "deserve it".

Fighting is illegal, and that is what most road rage incidents are.  Legal definition of fighting is an altercation that both parties contributed to the escalation thereof.
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Beltway

#65
Quote from: jakeroot on September 17, 2017, 11:38:11 PM
Quote from: Jardine on September 17, 2017, 09:15:34 PM
Surprise brake check without the brakelights:
downshift your automatic transmission
Actually, this is a fact of life for many drivers of manual gearboxes. I often downshift to brake, especially when approaching a signal from a distance. This means that my brake lights don't actually come on until I'm a dozen car-lengths back from the stop line, and I need my actual brakes to bring me to a halt. In heavy (but quick-moving) traffic, I often change gears to slow down, rather than constantly tapping my brakes. In some instances, this gives the impression that I'm brake-checking without braking, but that's never my intent (I don't brake check, ever).

I do that routinely with an automatic, downshifting rather than riding the brakes down a long grade.  With the modern 6-speed trans there are a number of gears to choose from.
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