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What are your thoughts on School Zones?

Started by CrossCountryRoads, February 05, 2013, 02:14:31 PM

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vdeane

Quote from: Billy F 1988 on February 11, 2013, 10:19:43 AM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 08, 2013, 09:32:47 PM
School zones are worthless

Wait a second. Where's the logic behind this? Why do you think school zones are worthless? They're actually necessary for the safety of children and parents crossing the arterial. What if that was your child going through a crosswalk in a 25 MPH school zone and some dummy blasts the red light at 40 and hits your child? See where I'm getting at?
If someone's blasting a red light, do you really think they're going to pay attention to a 25mph school zone (which would actually be really high for a school zone; I have only seen one that high)?  Though, for the record, I have never observed anyone blasting red lights either; 100% of red light running I've observed is cases of yellows that are too short (so people can't stop in time) or the common problem of "I'm tailgating so I don't have to obey traffic laws" where a line of cars will follow one driver who entered the intersection at the tail end of a yellow.

Quote from: ilvny on February 11, 2013, 12:38:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 10, 2013, 12:48:20 PM
In NY we don't even have flashers most of the time - it's just 15/20 any time between 6 AM and 6 PM Mon-Fri (sometimes "school days").

Is this New York City?  I'd hate to have to drive slower like that during that time period, since most of my driving is in the morning and afternoon.
Nope - upstate; most of my experience is in the Finger Lakes region.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.


silverback1065


kkt

Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across.  I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised.  Am I just weird?

It sounds like you were raised in a very small town.  Here in Seattle, if you only crossed when there was no car nearby, you'd remain on your own block for hours.  Prevailing speeds outside of school zones are 30-40 mph, and at that speed drivers cannot see a pedestrian stepping into the street in time to stop.  Hence, the need for school zones.

Maybe they aren't ideal locations for schools, but most of the schools built facing arterials were built more than 60 years ago when there was much less car traffic and what traffic there was was much slower.  It's not terribly helpful to suggest closing them and rebuilding elsewhere now that the city is densely built.  The school district expects students who live within 3/4 mile of their school to walk and generally does not provide busing for such short distances, and that's healthier for the students and their parents too.

Incidentally, Seattle just started red light cameras in school zones, and they're surprised by how many drivers are caught speeding through.  The revenue does not go into the general fund, it goes into traffic safety improvements and education.  The school zone speed limit here is 20 mph, and even at that they catch a lot of speeders. 

kkt

Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"

Is a male student attending a historically all-women's college a co-ed?

I would use the term "women" unless there's some reason to emphasize that the college just started admitting women recently.

tdindy88

On the Seattle story, are those school zones all day or just at certain hours in the morning and the afternoon. I'm fine with school zones, but only in the cases that certain hours (7-9, 3-5 for example) are listed or the sign says "When Children are Present." I see no reason for me to be slowing down when I drive by a school when the children are INSIDE the school. My car going the legal speed limit should not be a threat to them when they are inside a brick/stone structure.

kkt

Quote from: tdindy88 on February 11, 2013, 06:16:36 PM
On the Seattle story, are those school zones all day or just at certain hours in the morning and the afternoon. I'm fine with school zones, but only in the cases that certain hours (7-9, 3-5 for example) are listed or the sign says "When Children are Present." I see no reason for me to be slowing down when I drive by a school when the children are INSIDE the school. My car going the legal speed limit should not be a threat to them when they are inside a brick/stone structure.

Most of them are "when children are present".  The rest have flashing lights shortly before and after school and are "when lights flash or when children are present".


theline

Quote from: kkt on February 11, 2013, 05:56:18 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 05, 2013, 05:15:52 PM
I was about to say, "They're called girls, by the way", but then I looked it up and found out the term coed has referred to female students since the late 19th Century. :palmslap"

Is a male student attending a historically all-women's college a co-ed?

I would use the term "women" unless there's some reason to emphasize that the college just started admitting women recently.

I was the first to use "coed" in this thread and I admit to being a person from another era. Kphoger points out that the term has been in use since the late 19th century. I deny that I'm old enough to be the first to use it.  :-D

If someone can provide an authoritative cite that the term is considered pejorative, I'll quit using it. Otherwise, I'll go right ahead.

empirestate

My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.

SidS1045

"A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves." - Edward R. Murrow

exit322


silverback1065


agentsteel53

Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:07:57 PM
So I made a mistake in spelling, big deal, it happens to everyone, even you.

you're just digging your hole even further, with the absurd combination of college-education braggartry and careless sentence construction.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

silverback1065

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:07:57 PM
So I made a mistake in spelling, big deal, it happens to everyone, even you.

you're just digging your hole even further, with the absurd combination of college-education braggartry and careless sentence construction.

I'm not bragging, you're starting a flame war and that is absurd.  Also before you insult me, make sure your own house is in order, you also aren't practicing proper grammar. 

agentsteel53

Quote from: silverback1065 on February 12, 2013, 02:39:05 PM
I'm not bragging, you're starting a flame war and that is absurd.  Also before you insult me, make sure your own house is in order, you also aren't practicing proper grammar.

I'm not the one who declared school zones to be worthless. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

kphoger

Quote from: US81 on February 10, 2013, 09:59:21 AM
Quote from: ilvny on February 09, 2013, 08:13:25 PM

I hate it when I drive in an active school zone (lights flashing and "15" lit) and there are no students anywhere.  I'm like, "Why the heck am I slowing down?"

The absolute most annoying thing about the school zones is this:
When school is closed for an inservice, holiday, break, bad weather, etc, nobody turns off the signs.  That means I'm driving 15 mph just because the signs are on.


This is true where I live as well, with signs that explicitly say "school zone"..."when lights are flashing."   It is annoying to know that it's spring break, summer recess or whatever, and yet the law - with the high-priced penalties - is still the law. Conversely, sometimes one drives past a school that is clearly in session, children everywhere and yet the lights are not flashing. Somehow I suspect the law is still enforced.

To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.

Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.

Really?  We're all going to war about they're and their, yet nobody is bothered by referring to a child as "it"?   :D
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

NE2

Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Actually the implication is that you'd be more inclined to blow past a crosswalk where a kid is waiting to cross when driving at a higher speed.
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

vdeane

Quote from: kkt on February 11, 2013, 05:48:36 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 06, 2013, 11:25:22 AM
When I was that young I knew to look both ways, cross only when there's no car in sight (or the only cars are very far away) and to run across.  I've always assumed that it's the way I was raised.  Am I just weird?

It sounds like you were raised in a very small town.  Here in Seattle, if you only crossed when there was no car nearby, you'd remain on your own block for hours.  Prevailing speeds outside of school zones are 30-40 mph, and at that speed drivers cannot see a pedestrian stepping into the street in time to stop.  Hence, the need for school zones.

Maybe they aren't ideal locations for schools, but most of the schools built facing arterials were built more than 60 years ago when there was much less car traffic and what traffic there was was much slower.  It's not terribly helpful to suggest closing them and rebuilding elsewhere now that the city is densely built.  The school district expects students who live within 3/4 mile of their school to walk and generally does not provide busing for such short distances, and that's healthier for the students and their parents too.

Incidentally, Seattle just started red light cameras in school zones, and they're surprised by how many drivers are caught speeding through.  The revenue does not go into the general fund, it goes into traffic safety improvements and education.  The school zone speed limit here is 20 mph, and even at that they catch a lot of speeders. 
Not really, but I did grow up in the suburbs, and my family pretty much just drove everywhere.  The only time I dealt with walking and arterial roads was walking to high school, and I didn't have to cross the street.  Given the current state of Rochester, we didn't usually have much reason to go to the city, and the crosswalks there are all controlled by traffic lights anyways.  It's probably safe to say that I had a sheltered childhood.

Quote from: NE2 on February 12, 2013, 05:42:21 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.
Actually the implication is that you'd be more inclined to blow past a crosswalk where a kid is waiting to cross when driving at a higher speed.
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past.  It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross.  Which strikes you as more efficient?  In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

kphoger

Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past.  It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross.  Which strikes you as more efficient?  In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).

That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road.  There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all.  In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Alps

Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
Quote from: empirestate on February 11, 2013, 10:49:21 PM
My only thought about school zones is that I rather resent the implication that if I were to spot a child crossing the street outside of such a zone, I would somehow be more inclined to run it over.

Really?  We're all going to war about they're and their, yet nobody is bothered by referring to a child as "it"?   :D
I'm bothered by the lack of signage stating "School Zone: Points Doubled"

agentsteel53

Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.

the general public has little way of knowing where the speed traps are at any given moment. 

furthermore, if the lights are on all the time, and people get used to thinking that during the summer they aren't enforced... then there will be cognitive dissonance, possibly with harmful consequences, on the one day of the weekend/holiday/summer when there's a special event at the school.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

kphoger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 06:53:00 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 05:38:10 PM
To be fair, I've never seen a cop sitting there clocking people's speed on days when school is not in session.

the general public has little way of knowing where the speed traps are at any given moment. 

furthermore, if the lights are on all the time, and people get used to thinking that during the summer they aren't enforced... then there will be cognitive dissonance, possibly with harmful consequences, on the one day of the weekend/holiday/summer when there's a special event at the school.


This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

agentsteel53

Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.

however, the only counter-argument which will actually get you off without penalty is to declare verbally that traffic tickets are illegal, and stomp out of the courtroom.
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

kphoger

Quote from: agentsteel53 on February 12, 2013, 07:15:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 07:00:41 PM
This is one case where Alanland actually has a one-up on the USA, since cognitive dissonance is expressly permitted under the 2012 VCG, and is even a legitimate counter-argument (rather, the only legitimate counter-argument) to a traffic ticket.

however, the only counter-argument which will actually get you off without penalty is to declare verbally that traffic tickets are illegal, and stomp out of the courtroom.

Man refuses to pay ticket, storms from courtroom, evades penalty...
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Brandon

Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past.  It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross.  Which strikes you as more efficient?  In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).

That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road.  There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all.  In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.

Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross.  Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kkt

Quote from: Brandon on February 12, 2013, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: kphoger on February 12, 2013, 06:22:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on February 12, 2013, 05:56:58 PM
It takes them two seconds (if that) of waiting for a car to go past.  It takes the car 30 seconds of waiting for them to cross.  Which strikes you as more efficient?  In fact, when I'm a pedestrian, I always feel bad when a single car decides to stop to let me cross (unless I'm in a hurry or the weather's bad, in which case I feel bad for being such a selfish little brat; either way, I'll feel guilty somehow).

That only holds true if there's only one car coming down the road.  There are many roads where a pedestrian would need to wait a couple of minutes for a true break in traffic; due to signal timing, it's sometimes even improbable to find a true "break" at all.  In cases like that, the comparison would be 30 seconds of waiting for a few cars (who actually takes 30 seconds to cross one lane of traffic, anyway?; I'd say it's more like slowing down a bit or pausing for a few seconds) to a couple of minutes of waiting for the pedestrian.

Then walk a flipping block over to the signal and then cross.  Don't be a dumbass and cross where it is impossible to get a good break in traffic.

Okay, here the signals are about every quarter mile.  A pedestrian probably walks about 4 mph.  So you're saying the pedestrian should walk 1/8 mile to the light, wait for the light, walk 1/8 mile back, say 6 minutes -- in order to save a driver 30 seconds waiting for a pedestrian to cross?  You think a driver's time is 12 times as valuable as a pedestrian's?



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