Conflicting school zone signage

[kkt]

Washington Administrative Code defines "when children are present" for Washington school zones:

WAC 468-95-335
When children are present.
Amend MUTCD Section 7B.15 by adding the following to paragraph 07:
The supplemental or lower panel of a School Speed Limit 20 sign which reads When Children are Present shall indicate to the motorist that the 20 mile per hour school speed limit is in force under any of the following conditions:
(1) School children are occupying or walking within the marked crosswalk.
(2) School children are waiting at the curb or on the shoulder of the roadway and are about to cross the roadway by way of the marked crosswalk.
(3) School children are present or walking along the roadway, either on the adjacent sidewalk or, in the absence of sidewalks, on the shoulder within the posted school speed limit zone extending 300 feet, or other distance established by regulation, in either direction from the marked crosswalk.

Sounds pretty reasonable, so you don't have to slow down because the kids are all in their classrooms.

[jakeroot]

Washington Administrative Code defines "when children are present" for Washington school zones:
...

Sounds pretty reasonable, so you don't have to slow down because the kids are all in their classrooms.

That is actually very reasonable. I had no idea the law was that precise. Nice to have some clarification there. I would have spent hours rummaging through the RCW; never thought of the WAC.

[iBallasticwolf2]

Reviving a thread here, but I can say this is a good example of conflicting signage.

[roadfro]

Not only conflicting control messages, but also conflicting speeds.

If there is a beacon and "when flashing" message, then that is the least ambiguous control that I would follow–the "when children are present" control should be removed. However, depending on the situation, I would keep the slower school speed.

[hbelkins]

How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?

In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.

I'm surprised Jeremy Moses hasn't reported that to the district office in northern Kentucky.

[kkt]

How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?

With their eyes.  Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder.  If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on).  That's in Washington, your state law may vary.

In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.

And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.

[jeffandnicole]

How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?

With their eyes.  Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder.  If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on).  That's in Washington, your state law may vary.

In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.

And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.

In New Jersey, "When Children Are Present" is defined as 1/2 hour before school, during recess, and 1/2 hour after school.  So the definitions can vary.

[hbelkins]

How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?

With their eyes.  Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder.  If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on).  That's in Washington, your state law may vary.

In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.

And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.

Sorry, but I interpret "when children are present" to mean "during school hours when classes are in session," not "if you can see them." And I think my interpretation is a reasonable one.

[Rothman]

How is the traveling public supposed to know when children are present?

With their eyes.  Children are present if they are in the crosswalks, sidewalks, at the curb or shoulder.  If the children are inside or on the playground, you don't have to slow down (unless the flashers are on).  That's in Washington, your state law may vary.

In most instances in Kentucky, the school zone speed limit flashers are only operating during morning and afternoon hours when students are arriving and departing at the school.

And that's why the addition of the "when children are present" sign, in case there's a crowd of kids getting out late who were in detention, at a spirit rally, school play, or there was an early dismissal day, and the flashers aren't on.

Sorry, but I interpret "when children are present" to mean "during school hours when classes are in session," not "if you can see them." And I think my interpretation is a reasonable one.

I'm with Kkt, here.  I think it's pretty clear that by "present" that they mean that there are children visible in the vicinity.  Doesn't make sense for someone to assume that there are children hidden in the school somewhere, especially when non-parents don't keep track of curriculum days and other special days off.