Red arrows

[flowmotion]

under California law, red ball means that right on red is allowed, unless signed otherwise - and red right arrow means "no right turn allowed at this time".

Perhaps because I live in California, this seems intuitively correct. A right red arrow should function similarly to a left red arrow, as an additional restriction. Otherwise, what's the point? Just use a red ball or a flashing yellow arrow.

[kphoger]

Well, if you are legally able to turn there on red, what aspect the light is displaying only relevant to whether you stop before you turn and whether you have other traffic to yield to. If you are not turning when the way is clear you are in fact blocking the way for others–if you were not there, others would certainly be turning, and you are the only element preventing them from doing so. This seems fairly clear to me.

You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn".  And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".

[1995hoo]

I'm not saying it's OK to sit there blasting the horn at the guy who doesn't turn right on red, and I'm also not saying you should beep the horn if you cannot see for certain that the other road is clear (meaning if, say, a truck or big SUV is blocking your view and your only basis for thinking it's clear is that you haven't seen a car go past, then you shouldn't honk). Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate. But as "kphoger" says, and as I acknowledged in my original comment, you're never required to turn on red, so anything more than a quick beep or two is overdoing it.

[agentsteel53]

in California we also have a flashing red right arrow, which means "right turn permitted after stop".  this is used when the mainline is green, and the interchange has visibility issues preventing one from evaluating, without a stop, the behavior of oncoming traffic making an unprotected left.

[agentsteel53]

You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn".  And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".

this is the equivalent of sitting at an unsignalized entrance to a major road - either a stop sign, or no signage*.  if you can make the right turn to get onto a main road, and you do not do so, you are indeed blocking the traffic behind you.

*usually this is a private driveway, but sometimes a public street won't have a STOP sign at the end.  the street I live on indeed doesn't.

[kphoger]

You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn".  And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".

this is the equivalent of sitting at an unsignalized entrance to a major road - either a stop sign, or no signage*.  if you can make the right turn to get onto a main road, and you do not do so, you are indeed blocking the traffic behind you.

*usually this is a private driveway, but sometimes a public street won't have a STOP sign at the end.  the street I live on indeed doesn't.

No.  Traffic is required by law to not sit at a STOP sign indefinitely.  Which makes sense, as STOP signs never turn green.  Stoplights are governed by a different set of laws.

Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate

Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed.  Yeah, that still doesn't help.  If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).

[agentsteel53]

Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed.  Yeah, that still doesn't help.  If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).

I once had someone start honking at me about 4 seconds before the light turned green.  (it was a protected left, not a right turn situation.)  as it was just him and me, I waited until the light went from green to yellow (all the while, he was honking like a maniac), and then floored it, trapping him in another cycle of red.

alas, he floored it right behind me and blatantly ran the red.  damn.

[kphoger]

Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed.  Yeah, that still doesn't help.  If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).

I once had someone start honking at me about 4 seconds before the light turned green.  (it was a protected left, not a right turn situation.)  as it was just him and me, I waited until the light went from green to yellow (all the while, he was honking like a maniac), and then floored it, trapping him in another cycle of red.

alas, he floored it right behind me and blatantly ran the red.  damn.

Yeah, that never quite works out as nicely as you hope, does it?  In Chicago, that would NEVER work, since it's normal practice for three people to run the red after the arrow disappears.

EDIT:  Chicago suburbs, since the city itself is amazingly devoid of left turn arrows.

[1995hoo]

Problem is nowadays even when lights turn green so many drivers don't move because they're not paying attention for whatever reason (around here, usually playing with their stupid phones), so I think a quick beep of the horn to say, "Hey, the road's clear, let's go" is entirely appropriate

Some people don't notice that lights turn green, therefore you honk your horn at me when I am not obligated to proceed.  Yeah, that still doesn't help.  If you were to honk at me while I was stopped at a red light, I would probably sit there for a few seconds after the light turned green just to mess with you (no, I'm not proud of this personality trait of mine).

It sounds to me as though you're missing my point. You seem to be interpreting my comment to mean that I'd sit there and blast the horn at someone who's not going right on red. I wouldn't. I'd blast the horn at someone who doesn't go on green if he fails to respond to a quieter "beep-beep" type thing or who stops at a YIELD sign when nobody's coming on the other road, but that's different. The issue with the right on red is that probably 99% of drivers will ordinarily make a right on red; around here, many of them will do it even when it's not safe to do so. So if you're at a red light waiting to turn right and the guy in front of you isn't going, AND you can see that the other road is clear, I think most people would not assume–as you seem to be suggesting they should do–that the guy in front has decided to avail himself of his option to decline to go right on red, and I think most people are quite rational in not making that assumption. More often than not the times I've been behind someone who isn't going right on red it's been a situation where there was a lot of traffic coming through for a time and then the road suddenly cleared, the guy in front of me doesn't go so I give a quick "beep-beep" on the horn (two short honks that aren't loud or belligerent), and almost always the driver kind of acts startled and then goes, often with a sheepish kind of a wave. It's readily apparent in those situations that the driver's attention had probably wandered while watching all that traffic go by–whether it wandered to a mobile phone, the radio, playing with a sat-nav, tending to a crying baby, whatever, who knows.

But there have been a few times over the years (thankfully very few) when I've been behind people who simply won't go right on red. Most of them have been elderly people. When a quick "beep-beep" on the horn doesn't work, then I think it's pretty obvious you're going to have to wait and so I don't honk further. I've seen plenty of other people go nuts blasting the horn, but I think that's a waste of time because (a) turning on red is not required and (b) as you suggest, it may just piss the guy off and make him obstinate.

The other thing that factors into the equation is that in Virginia it's almost always the case that right turns on red are allowed from the curb lane only and there is almost always a sign prohibiting turns on red from any other lane. So you can't just move into the other right turn lane, if there is one, to get around the inattentive driver.

(The only time I've blown my horn at someone in a LEFT on red situation was at an intersection in Fairfax City, Virginia, where there was a sign that said "Left Turn on Red Permitted After Stop." If there is no sign, then I assume the person is ignorant of the law allowing it and therefore won't go.)


BTW, all of the above assumes that it's a right-turn-only lane. If it's an option lane for right or straight, then you never honk because the guy might be going straight (given how many people think turn signals are optional). I try not to be in the right lane in that situation if I'm going straight so that I don't block right-turners, but most drivers don't think that way.

Also, to return to the original topic, I wouldn't blame anyone for not turning right on a red arrow, because I think it's extremely reasonable to assume that a red arrow prohibits movement in the direction of the arrow when it's illuminated.

[agentsteel53]

Yeah, that never quite works out as nicely as you hope, does it?  In Chicago, that would NEVER work, since it's normal practice for three people to run the red after the arrow disappears.

EDIT:  Chicago suburbs, since the city itself is amazingly devoid of left turn arrows.

NYC as well... when the light turns red, traffic queued up continues to go through until it is all cleared out.

this was a relatively quiet San Diego office park area.  not the sort of place you envision these sorts of idiot-maniac types.

[Scott5114]

Well, if you are legally able to turn there on red, what aspect the light is displaying only relevant to whether you stop before you turn and whether you have other traffic to yield to. If you are not turning when the way is clear you are in fact blocking the way for others–if you were not there, others would certainly be turning, and you are the only element preventing them from doing so. This seems fairly clear to me.

You're still turning "permitted to turn" into "ought to turn".  And a red light does not indicate "ought to turn".

I'm not arguing the legal facts. Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No. But if they do sit there instead of going when they are able, they are needlessly holding up the traffic behind them and impeding others' progress without cause. They are not considering the other drivers' need to get somewhere and instead only focusing on their own desire to sit at the light for whatever reason. This makes them an asshole.

(Keep in mind I am considering ideal conditions here. If someone is unwilling to risk the RTOR because of limited sight distance due to geometry or weather conditions that's completely acceptable.)

Someone, I think it was Jake, mentioned once that one hallmark of a good driver is that the traffic patterns would stay utterly the same if they were not there at all. I think this is one example of the sort of situation that truism was describing.

[NE2]

Is it legal to sit here for eight hours?

[kphoger]

I'm willing to give foreigners more of a pass on this issue because not all countries allow turns on red. Several European friends have said to me that they are reluctant to turn on red when they visit the USA because it's illegal in their countries and it's just very hard for them to overcome that. I guess I can understand that sort of thing–especially the Brits who are already adjusting to driving on the wrong side of the road when they come here.

* kphoger wonders how, exactly, one can determine by looking through the rear window of a driver's car that (s)he is British.

I'm not arguing the legal facts. Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No. But if they do sit there instead of going when they are able, they are needlessly holding up the traffic behind them and impeding others' progress without cause. They are not considering the other drivers' need to get somewhere and instead only focusing on their own desire to sit at the light for whatever reason. This makes them an asshole.

Is a motorist legally able to sit there until the light turns green? Of course. Are they legally obligated to go? No.  This makes anyone who honks their horn at them an asshole.

Is it legal to sit here for eight hours?

Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?

[NE2]

Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?

Because there are conflicting green movements?

[kphoger]

Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?

Because there are conflicting green movements?

Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.

[NE2]

Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?

Because there are conflicting green movements?

Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.

I don't think there are any times it would be a green arrow.

[kj3400]

Why exactly is the light not turning green for 8 hours?

[NE2]

Why exactly is the light not turning green for 8 hours?

Because it's a parking garage exit at a busy intersection, and there's no need to give it any priority until the afternoon.

[kphoger]

Why on earth was an eight-hour green right-turn arrow not used instead?

Because there are conflicting green movements?

Then it should just turn red during those conflicting movements, then revert to a green arrow.

I don't think there are any times it would be a green arrow.

Ah, I was thinking it was the entrance, not the exit.  So then I guess my next question would be why it doesn't simply go to flashing red mode instead of solid red, with cross traffic receiving a flashing yellow.  Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.

[NE2]

Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.

You can click the link to street view and move around.

[kphoger]

Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.

You can click the link to street view and move around.

Thanks.  I see that opposing traffic has dual left turn lanes which are striped in such as way as to leave two of the four intersecting lanes open.  So I see no reason why the parking garage couldn't get a green right turn arrow whenever opposing traffic gets a green:  their turn movements should not conflict; in fact, there should be a whole empty lane between them.

[kj3400]

I assume they thought that people coming off I-277 would not be courteous enough to get in the leftmost two lanes.

[Alps]

Basically, I guess I'm just not familiar with the intersection.

You can click the link to street view and move around.

Thanks.  I see that opposing traffic has dual left turn lanes which are striped in such as way as to leave two of the four intersecting lanes open.  So I see no reason why the parking garage couldn't get a green right turn arrow whenever opposing traffic gets a green:  their turn movements should not conflict; in fact, there should be a whole empty lane between them.

Can't do that without physical separation.

[Central Avenue]

Can't do that without physical separation.

That was my first thought too. Just because the lanes are striped that way doesn't mean you won't get people turning left into the far right lane anyway.

[1995hoo]

Can't do that without physical separation.

That was my first thought too. Just because the lanes are striped that way doesn't mean you won't get people turning left into the far right lane anyway.

I'd go a step further and say that based on what I observe in day-to-day driving, it is virtually certain that unless you have physical separation, you will get people turning into the far lane. Around here I see people doing that even when there are multiple turn lanes–they just turn into whichever lane they want without bothering to look to see if it's clear. I think around here one reason for that is Virginia's insistence on prohibiting turns on red from any lane other than the curb lane, so when people turn right they tend to favor the curb lane.