Harrisburg Expressway: How was it signed pre 581?

[briantroutman]

The thread on the I-83/PA 581 interchange got me thinking–PA 581 wasn't designated until 1992, so how was the Harrisburg Expressway signed for the first 30+ years of its existence?

I understand that the section from the US 15 cloverleaf west to Carlisle Pike has been designated US 11 since it opened to traffic, but what about the segment between US 11/15 and I-83? Was it unnumbered? PennDOT maps from the late '50s through the early '90s simply list it as "Harrisburg Expressway" .

And how were pull-throughs signed? Just "TO I-83"  at the western end and "TO US 11"  at the eastern end, or with control points "Harrisburg"  and "Mechanicsburg" –or was it signed by name, as the Central Scranton Expressway is?

Unfortunately, the designation of PA 581 in 1992 occurred right around the time I started traveling around the state, and I can only remember this signed as 581. But it wasn't that long ago–surely someone must remember (and perhaps have pictures).

[jemacedo9]

From I-83 North, the exit was signed TO 11 / 15 - Camp Hill.  The section between I-83 and US 11/15 was unnumbered.  I'd imagine that heading eastbound, it was signed TO I-83 - Harrisburg.

[amroad17]

I concur with jemacedo9--both I-83 North and South had the Harrisburg Expressway signed as TO US 11/15 - Camp Hill.  I believe the western end was signed TO I-83 - Harrisburg, York IIRC.

Where PA 581's interchange is with I-81 now had apparently been planned for at least 25-30 years before it opened.  The ramps and flyovers were graded at least since 1972 (the first time I ever rode by there).  It was originally EXIT 19 until PA went to the mileage based exit numbers in 2002.  As an aside, isn't this the location where a beam fell off a crane and crushed a car that was driving on I-81, killing a young woman?  And because of this incident, did DOT's start shutting down highways whenever they were putting bridge beams over the highway?  Just asking to see if anyone has info on this.

[CentralPAGal]

\

Where PA 581's interchange is with I-81 now had apparently been planned for at least 25-30 years before it opened.  The ramps and flyovers were graded at least since 1972 (the first time I ever rode by there).  It was originally EXIT 19 until PA went to the mileage based exit numbers in 2002.  As an aside, isn't this the location where a beam fell off a crane and crushed a car that was driving on I-81, killing a young woman?  And because of this incident, did DOT's start shutting down highways whenever they were putting bridge beams over the highway?  Just asking to see if anyone has info on this.

I remember seeing the ramps from 81 before 581 was finished out that far, but I didn't realize that they had been there for that long. As for the falling beam, if memory serves, that was when they were building a new bridge over the Carlisle Pike in 1995 or 96.

[Alex]

\

Where PA 581's interchange is with I-81 now had apparently been planned for at least 25-30 years before it opened.  The ramps and flyovers were graded at least since 1972 (the first time I ever rode by there).  It was originally EXIT 19 until PA went to the mileage based exit numbers in 2002.  As an aside, isn't this the location where a beam fell off a crane and crushed a car that was driving on I-81, killing a young woman?  And because of this incident, did DOT's start shutting down highways whenever they were putting bridge beams over the highway?  Just asking to see if anyone has info on this.

I remember seeing the ramps from 81 before 581 was finished out that far, but I didn't realize that they had been there for that long. As for the falling beam, if memory serves, that was when they were building a new bridge over the Carlisle Pike in 1995 or 96.

The interchange sat unused for years. I-81 was three lanes south ahead of the eventual left-hand ramp for PA 581 east, with the third lane ending just before the future gore point.

I videotaped through there in 1993 and 1995 and remember the seemingly random pull through panel for I-81 (sign bridges were in place for the future left-hand exit years in advance).

Here is an animated gif from the July 6, 1995 video I shot showing I-81 south at the future PA 581 exit:

[sbeaver44]

\

Where PA 581's interchange is with I-81 now had apparently been planned for at least 25-30 years before it opened.  The ramps and flyovers were graded at least since 1972 (the first time I ever rode by there).  It was originally EXIT 19 until PA went to the mileage based exit numbers in 2002.  As an aside, isn't this the location where a beam fell off a crane and crushed a car that was driving on I-81, killing a young woman?  And because of this incident, did DOT's start shutting down highways whenever they were putting bridge beams over the highway?  Just asking to see if anyone has info on this.

I remember seeing the ramps from 81 before 581 was finished out that far, but I didn't realize that they had been there for that long. As for the falling beam, if memory serves, that was when they were building a new bridge over the Carlisle Pike in 1995 or 96.

I too remember the Exit 19 ramps, and although I remember 581 before the extension to 81, I am too young to remember pre-581 signage (born in '87).  I actually think the falling beam happened when they were working on where PA 581 goes over PA 641 and it fell off and crushed the driver.  '96 sounds about right.

[jpi]

I can remember as far back as the late 70's the part from 11/15 interchange in Camp Hill to 83 was unsigned" there was "To 11-15 Camp Hill" signs at the 83 exit and "To I-83 Harrisburg\ Hershey" at the 11/15 exit. As for the bridge beam, it was like sbeaver44 said, it crushed a motorist on PA 641 when they were re-building\ widening that part of the freeway in 96, sad.

[LeftyJR]

Why isn't 581 designated as an interstate?

[jpi]

Not sure off the top of my head, it is up to interstate standards, I am hopeing eventually in my life time it will be but my home state does tend to like have near interstate grade freeways signed at state highways (283, 33, 28 and 309 to name a few)

[Mr_Northside]

my home state does tend to like have near interstate grade freeways signed at state highways (283, 33, 28 and 309 to name a few)

28 might be grade-separated & limited access from PGH (at least in a couple of months) to Kittanning, but -especially from Blawnox/Fox Chapel to the city - it's hardly "near interstate" standard.

[Roadsguy]

This doesn't really answer the question, but if there was ever an older revision of the West Shore Expressway plan that had it start at the York Split (and perhaps through Enola and directly connect to the 11/15 "expressway" as it crosses 81, extending then up to Duncannon?), then the entire Harrisburg Expressway was probably planned to be 11, with 11 and 83 "bumping" at the York Split (like with 76/80 in Ohio). Though that wouldn't explain having 11 and 15 cross each other, then come back together north of Camp Hill for the multiplex.

[briantroutman]

I was looking through a scan of a Reading Eagle issue from 1966 and stumbled upon the photo below. All of you who remembered  "TO 11 - 15 - Camp Hill"  were exactly correct.

[billpa]

I was looking through a scan of a Reading Eagle issue from 1966 and stumbled upon the photo below. All of you who remembered  "TO 11 - 15 - Camp Hill"  were exactly correct.

Nice find.

HTC6525LVW

[roadman65]

It was signed for " TO US 11/15" Camp Hill- Gettysburg going south on I-83. No name and the interchange for PA 581 on I-81 was always there and like Alex said had lane drops there from six to four lanes SB on 81 and four to six NB with the overhead signs in place already.

PennDOT most likely used reference route numbers to identify pre 1992.

[NE2]

PennDOT most likely used reference route numbers to identify pre 1992.

SR 2022 (which replaced LR 767 in 1987). The part west of US 11 was LR 1067, but may not have had a state route number until it was built.

[jpi]

I was looking through a scan of a Reading Eagle issue from 1966 and stumbled upon the photo below. All of you who remembered  “TO 11 - 15 - Camp Hill” were exactly correct.

Nice find.

HTC6525LVW

I agree, that signage was there as recently as 92 and then replaced with PA 581 West signage, a classic true PA button copy overhead :-)

[amroad17]

That group of signs looks great!  I wish signage could look like that today. 

[Gnutella]

Not sure off the top of my head, it is up to interstate standards, I am hopeing eventually in my life time it will be but my home state does tend to like have near interstate grade freeways signed at state highways (283, 33, 28 and 309 to name a few)

The segment of PA 581 from I-83 to the U.S. 11 South split has a narrow median, and there doesn't appear to be enough right-of-way to correct this either. Every other aspect of the highway appears to meet Interstate standards, though.

my home state does tend to like have near interstate grade freeways signed at state highways (283, 33, 28 and 309 to name a few)

28 might be grade-separated & limited access from PGH (at least in a couple of months) to Kittanning, but -especially from Blawnox/Fox Chapel to the city - it's hardly "near interstate" standard.

North of Blawnox, PA 28 appears to meet Interstate standards, but south of Blawnox, about the farthest I can see it being successfully upgraded to Interstate standards is to the Highland Park Bridge. South of there, the median is too narrow, and there are too many left-exits.

[CentralPAGal]

The segment of PA 581 from I-83 to the U.S. 11 South split has a narrow median, and there doesn't appear to be enough right-of-way to correct this either. Every other aspect of the highway appears to meet Interstate standards, though.

About 6 to 8 years back, PennDOT redid a portion of 581 from the US 15 interchange almost to the I-83 interchange. This included adding one lane eastbound (technically a CD lane) and completely redesigning the bridge and interchange at US 15, a well as widening an existing viaduct carrying 581. If PennDOT really had the will (and the finances), they could have easily, imo, redone that portion correctly: 6 lanes with 10' inside and outside shoulders (and no goddamn stoplights in the US 15 interchange!)

[Roadsguy]

Sorry to bump the thread, but the 1990 Type 10 map for Cumberland County contains some interesting relevant information. Some of my observations:

• Like NE2 already said, the unsigned segment was SR 2022 (with the US 11 segment being SR 0011), and the proposed segment had a legislative route number of 1067. I initially thought this was the temporary quadrant route (which today PennDOT uses SR 6xxx for, so it would probably be 6581 today), since it coincidentally is four digits and is in the northeast quadrant of the county, where routes start with 1.
• Interestingly, though Brian said 581 wasn't signed until 1992, the unsigned portion has a PA 581 shield on it in this 1990 map, despite not even being SR 0581 yet.
• The ramps at I-81 were already given their SR designation, SR 8034. Interestingly, today it's SR 8033, so at one point it was changed for some reason.
• They must have been anticipating the I-581 designation when they completed 581, as the entire thing was made SR 0581, even the US 11 segment. Are there any other places in the state where a lower type of route trumps a higher one for the SR designation?

[OracleUsr]

I remember travelling through Carlisle in the late 80's and seeing a sign gantry on I-81 that just had the pull through signs on both directions of I-81, no indication of what it was.  I used to call it "Phantom Junction" and, later someone told me that, yes, that was the future PA 581 (Exit 59/old 19)

[roadman65]

I remember travelling through Carlisle in the late 80's and seeing a sign gantry on I-81 that just had the pull through signs on both directions of I-81, no indication of what it was.  I used to call it "Phantom Junction" and, later someone told me that, yes, that was the future PA 581 (Exit 59/old 19)

It also had a lane drop as the six lanes became four at that interchange.  Going south to Carlisle it was four and north to I-83 was six respectively.

[qguy]

They must have been anticipating the I-581 designation when they completed 581, as the entire thing was made SR 0581, even the US 11 segment.

When the portion from US 11 to I-81 was under construction, the Community Relations Coordinator (CRC) for District 8-0 told me that they were planning on signing the entire length from I-83 to I-81 as I-581. When PennDOT wimped out on bringing the older segment up to anything approaching even Roman Empire roadway standards, they gave up on that idea and signed the entire length PA 581 instead.

[roadman65]

They must have been anticipating the I-581 designation when they completed 581, as the entire thing was made SR 0581, even the US 11 segment.

When the portion from US 11 to I-81 was under construction, the Community Relations Coordinator (CRC) for District 8-0 told me that they were planning on signing the entire length from I-83 to I-81 as I-581. When PennDOT wimped out on bringing the older segment up to anything approaching even Roman Empire roadway standards, they gave up on that idea and signed the entire length PA 581 instead.

It figures.

[ixnay]

today's sign:

That graininess is so 2007 GSV. 

ixnay