New York MTA vetoes Kentucky's membership in E-ZPass

Started by hbelkins, October 12, 2015, 09:16:27 PM

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Rothman

Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?

O.o.  If I made a political donation and they gave my kid a toll collector job, I'd want my money back. :D
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.


Brandon

Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road.  Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling.  They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.

Why?  Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier.  Yes, there is leakage, but ORT can also be so attractive to most folks that they get a transponder so they never have to roll down their window and stop.  Making electronic tolls half the price of cash tolls never hurt as a carrot either.

Out of curiosity, what are the ETC rates for the MTA and other toll authorities, particularly those on the east coast?  I know that ISTHA runs about 87% ETC using the above ideas (ORT, 1/2 price electronic tolls, no monthly fee).
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

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hbelkins

Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Quote from: Henry on October 14, 2015, 12:23:06 PM
Well, I guess I was a bit confused. Still, NY should not have interfered with KY's plans.

New York is a stakeholder in the technology. If Kentucky wanted a resident discount plan, why didn't they just use what's already available on E-ZPass instead of using a separate system? It certainly raises a bit of suspicion. Is Kentucky trying to hide something? From an engineering perspective, it would probably cost more money to use two technologies instead of one because you'd have to have the infrastructure to support both.

There are actually going to be three technologies -- E-ZPass transponders, the commuter stickers and toll-by-plate for vehicles that don't have either of those two.

Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein.  :-P


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

cl94

Quote from: Brandon on October 14, 2015, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road.  Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling.  They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.

Why?  Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier.  Yes, there is leakage, but ORT can also be so attractive to most folks that they get a transponder so they never have to roll down their window and stop.  Making electronic tolls half the price of cash tolls never hurt as a carrot either.

Out of curiosity, what are the ETC rates for the MTA and other toll authorities, particularly those on the east coast?  I know that ISTHA runs about 87% ETC using the above ideas (ORT, 1/2 price electronic tolls, no monthly fee).

Depends greatly.

Here are the Thruway statistics from August 2015. On the the western ticket system, slightly over half of users have E-ZPass, with 2/3 on the main ticket system. Most of the E-ZPass usage on the main system is likely concentrated between Exits 16 and 25A. Discounts are about 10%. NYSTA will never switch to ORT and, given the amount of cash users, it would make things a big PITA. Tourists to Niagara Falls, the Adirondacks, Canada, and New England likely won't get E-ZPass if they'll never use it.

The MTA runs at 85% and they are switching over to AET. They're taking things slow so they can be able to go after CT drivers who don't pay. E-ZPass discounts are huge.

Point is, with a lot of the stuff in the Northeast, especially stuff that runs on a ticket system, there are a lot of tourists from out of the region.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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cl94

Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road.  Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling.  They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.

Quote from: cl94 on October 14, 2015, 12:31:47 PM
Take the Atlantic Beach Bridge on Long Island that won't join E-ZPass because it would open their accounting to outside audit. There's a lot of corruption in that agency that can't be fully exposed because they're hiding their finances.
Don't they also use toll collector jobs as patronage positions?

They are used as patronage positions. Children of friends/family members often get part-time evening, weekend, and summer work as toll collectors. Having this in the MTA service area probably makes them a little extra cautious about revenue sources that can't be easily audited.

The MTA would probably also lose the most by a technology shift. MTA tags go to everyone in NYC, Long Island, and some of the lower Hudson Valley (IIRC). Some people in CT may have them as well to get the NY discount. As the vast majority of vehicles in the region have E-ZPass, it's one of the largest issuers of tags. The New York service center is likely the largest tag issuer by volume. A change would force them to reissue every tag and there are probably over a million scattered around New York, surrounding states and southern Ontario.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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empirestate


Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein.  :-P

Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?


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hbelkins

Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 07:32:21 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein.  :-P

Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?

I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just saying that's probably what more than a few people in the Louisville region are saying.


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

NWI_Irish96

Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein.  :-P

The true cultural dividing line between the Midwest and South is I-70.
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

empirestate

Quote from: hbelkins on October 15, 2015, 03:22:07 PM
Quote from: empirestate on October 14, 2015, 07:32:21 PM

Quote from: hbelkins on October 14, 2015, 06:15:24 PM
Still, this does little to dispel the stereotypes southerners/midwesterners (since there seems to be some debate about where Louisville actually belongs, I used both regions) have about NYC and the Northeast and the practices of the people and agencies therein.  :-P

Be that as it may, we don't have any indication that those stereotypes bear a resemblance to the MTA's true motivations, do we? We had been discussing quite rationally the idea that they were concerned about a competing technology being used; that's not a stereotypical trait of the Northeast, is it?

I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just saying that's probably what more than a few people in the Louisville region are saying.

Oh, I've no doubt. But I'd be surprised if a whole lot of folks were saying it specifically in reference to the E-ZPass situation–is it really that much in the public eye? Or were you just thinking of the present comment?

Duke87

Quote from: Brandon on October 14, 2015, 04:31:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 14, 2015, 03:19:58 PM
I suspect that the MTA wants no part of 6C transponders and is afraid allowing Kentucky in would result in a technology change down the road.  Remember, this is the agency that didn't demolish the eastbound half of the Verrazano toll barrier for YEARS after it went to one-way tolling.  They also still use gate arms at almost all of their toll plazas.

Why?  Open road tolling is a great thing and makes traveling down a tollway so much easier.

Unions. Currently there are TBTA police officers patrolling the toll plazas on foot. If you get stuck in an EZpass lane without an EZpass, a cop comes over to collect your toll and possibly write you a ticket, and then manually open the gate for you. Hence, the gates can't easily be removed because laying off the workers manning them is politically problematic.

As for why the MTA would veto Kentucky's entry, the aforementioned reason is exactly correct - currently MTA crossings can only read hard case active transponders. They don't want anyone on the EZpass board issuing passive stickers because they don't want to have to spend money installing equipment to read them.

The stickers of course are cheaper to make and are used by most non-EZpass toll agencies. It's understandable that Kentucky would want to partially use them since it's likely that in the future that will become the national standard. But the MTA wants none of that since they have their set way of doing things and don't want to change it.

In other words, Kentucky... the MTA is introducing you to a good ol' NYC-style turf war. If you want to alter the status quo you had better be prepared to prove that you're more stubborn than they are. Good luck.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

NWI_Irish96

So does this mean my I-Pass will not work on the new bridges??
Indiana: counties 100%, highways 100%
Illinois: counties 100%, highways 61%
Michigan: counties 100%, highways 56%
Wisconsin: counties 86%, highways 23%

lordsutch

No, just means Kentucky will probably have to levy a slightly higher toll rate to cover the per-toll fee to the consortium for E-ZPass (IAG) tag reads, like apparently is the case in NC, who also are predominantly 6C sticker with an IAG tag option.

cl94

Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 01:05:18 PM
No, just means Kentucky will probably have to levy a slightly higher toll rate to cover the per-toll fee to the consortium for E-ZPass (IAG) tag reads, like apparently is the case in NC, who also are predominantly 6C sticker with an IAG tag option.

Or they can just drop the 6C sticker. How many toll users use the hard case in comparison to a 6C sticker? Most people from out of the area would have a hard case as neighboring states tend to use E-ZPass or a compatible system.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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AlexandriaVA

If you want to join a club, you gotta play by the club's rules.

lordsutch

Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 02:09:09 PM
Or they can just drop the 6C sticker. How many toll users use the hard case in comparison to a 6C sticker? Most people from out of the area would have a hard case as neighboring states tend to use E-ZPass or a compatible system.

The passive 6C stickers are far cheaper (less than $1 each in bulk) than active tags, and they don't have to share any money with IAG for 6C tag reads. Even a portable passive 6C tag would be substantially cheaper than IAG, although I don't think anyone offers these (yet) since the "tape it to your windshield" hack is widely-enough known.

On a commuter bridge the vast majority of users are going to be local. So for KY there's a huge cost savings for going with 6C for people who don't plan to drive the Indiana Toll Road at the other end of the state or use the WV Pike, the two closest E-ZPass facilities of consequence.

And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.

vdeane

Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass.  If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now.  Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?

Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place?  Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways.  Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated.  Which would you rather see on a statement:

10/20/15 NYSTA 16 12:45:37 3 18 1:13:49 1 $1.38

OR

10/20/15 NYSTA NBG 12:45:37 2 --- --------- - $1.19
10/20/15 NYSTA NPZ 12:58:24 1 --- --------- - $0.71

And that's just two exits.  I would have used a longer example, but calculating travel times and toll amounts takes WORK.  The first example is a nice, readable entry summarizing the trip with the entry and exit points and the total cost.  The second example is a spammy, less readable thing filled with filler data and requiring math if someone wants to figure out the total cost for a single trip on the Thruway.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

oscar

#41
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place?  Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways.  Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated.

SunPass seems to work fine with both active and passive transponders in the SunPass customer base (mine was a passive sticker tag), both of them working the same on ticketed roads (like most of Florida's Turnpike) and the ones with barrier tolls (such as the rest of the Turnpike).

I'd rather have an active transponder for all the systems I travel, so I can easily switch between vehicles. But sticker tags cost less than active transponders. Sunpass stickers cost about $5-6, while the TxTag sticker in my truck was free.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
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cl94

Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass.  If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now.  Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?

Let's put it this way: 26 states have toll roads. 15 accept E-ZPass. How many of the other ones even have barriers that require cash customers to stop? Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas, not counting toll bridges. Only Oklahoma's system predates E-ZPass. The main difference is technology. When it all started, there were two protocols. Why one wasn't chosen and the other abandoned is beyond me, but the result is a system where most of the infrastructure is E-ZPass-compatible, but there is enough that isn't compatible to inhibit cross-honoring.

Additionally, passive and active refers to the technology, not the type of transponder. Passive technology can come in hard cases.

Edit: Listed Kansas twice instead of Texas
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

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hbelkins

Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.

Don't be so sure. Kentucky just got another extension to RealID requirements for driver's licenses, so it's entirely possible that the mandate will be delayed yet again.

(Kentucky's issue with RealID is that driver's licenses are not issued by the Transportation Cabinet or other state offices, but by the circuit court clerk's office in each county. This is the same office that handles lawsuits, payment of fines, etc., and the issue is that the courthouses will need to meet stringent federal security requirements before Kentucky will be RealID-compliant.)


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

cl94

Quote from: hbelkins on October 20, 2015, 09:31:25 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on October 20, 2015, 04:20:57 PM
And, as mentioned earlier, IAG members are going to have to suck it up and accept non-local 6C tags (and 6B tags like SunPass and TxTag) anyway due to the interop mandate next year. Technology marches on.

Don't be so sure. Kentucky just got another extension to RealID requirements for driver's licenses, so it's entirely possible that the mandate will be delayed yet again.

(Kentucky's issue with RealID is that driver's licenses are not issued by the Transportation Cabinet or other state offices, but by the circuit court clerk's office in each county. This is the same office that handles lawsuits, payment of fines, etc., and the issue is that the courthouses will need to meet stringent federal security requirements before Kentucky will be RealID-compliant.)

Given the current state of political affairs, I wouldn't be so certain that everything remains in the county clerk's office for much longer, either
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1995hoo

Quote from: oscar on October 20, 2015, 08:50:01 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Can passive transponders even WORK in a true ticket system in the first place?  Just accepting them would seem to require a complete redesign of the tolling systems for many highways.  Besides, ticket systems are just much more elegant than the barrier systems that are being proliferated.

SunPass seems to work fine with both active and passive transponders in the SunPass customer base (mine was a passive sticker tag), both of them working the same on ticketed roads (like most of Florida's Turnpike) and the ones with barrier tolls (such as the rest of the Turnpike).

I'd rather have an active transponder for all the systems I travel, so I can easily switch between vehicles. But sticker tags cost less than active transponders. Sunpass stickers cost about $5-6, while the TxTag sticker in my truck was free.

It's also worth noting that a sticker tag can be transferred between vehicles, instructions notwithstanding. Based on advice I received on this forum, I attached my SunPass Mini sticker tag to my windshield using scotch tape and I never removed the tag's backing paper. I have two cars registered to my SunPass account but just the one tag. It's been stuck up there with tape for somewhat more than four years now and it still works just fine (on the ticket-system part of the Turnpike, the various ORT facilities, and the old-style plazas with "SunPass Only" lanes). As it happens I've never moved it to another car because we never take Ms1995hoo's car on long trips (mine is just more comfortable) and I haven't rented a car in Florida since 2008, but if we ever fly down and rent a car, I'll bring my SunPass Mini with me (and probably add the rental to my account while I'm driving it).
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
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oscar

#46
Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 09:25:16 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 20, 2015, 08:19:38 PM
Honestly, I'd rather the rest of the country just adopt E-ZPass.  If the other states had jumped on the E-ZPass system when electronic tolling was being deployed in the rest of the US, we wouldn't have these issues now.  Why did they feel the need to reinvent the wheel?

Let's put it this way: 26 states have toll roads. 15 accept E-ZPass. How many of the other ones even have barriers that require cash customers to stop? Florida, Kansas, Oklahoma, and Kansas, not counting toll bridges.

Some additional states (like Texas) use "barrier" systems, but most or all their toll roads are cash-less (either transponder, or pay-by-plate). California might be similar -- using hard-case transponders that aren't interoperable with E-ZPass -- though I'm not sure whether it's gone as far as Texas in going cash-less. 

Quote from: 1995hoo on October 20, 2015, 09:39:14 PM
It's also worth noting that a sticker tag can be transferred between vehicles, instructions notwithstanding. Based on advice I received on this forum, I attached my SunPass Mini sticker tag to my windshield using scotch tape and I never removed the tag's backing paper. I have two cars registered to my SunPass account but just the one tag. It's been stuck up there with tape for somewhat more than four years now and it still works just fine (on the ticket-system part of the Turnpike, the various ORT facilities, and the old-style plazas with "SunPass Only" lanes). As it happens I've never moved it to another car because we never take Ms1995hoo's car on long trips (mine is just more comfortable) and I haven't rented a car in Florida since 2008, but if we ever fly down and rent a car, I'll bring my SunPass Mini with me (and probably add the rental to my account while I'm driving it).

Yeah, I permanently mounted my SunPass Mini to my car's windshield, so it did not survive when I cracked the windshield in Saskatchewan. Next time I'm down in Florida, I'll have to buy another SunPass sticker, and this time use the scotch-tape trick.

I'm not sure the same trick would work for my truck's TxTag sticker (looks similar to a SunPass Mini), which came with rather fussy mounting instructions that knowledgeable users might successfully ignore.
my Hot Springs and Highways pages, with links to my roads sites:
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vdeane

The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

1995hoo

Quote from: vdeane on October 21, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
The tape method of attaching the stickers has always struck me as inelegant.

It is, but who cares? I'd rather maintain portability than have it permanently affixed there.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

hbelkins

Quote from: cl94 on October 20, 2015, 09:36:28 PM
Given the current state of political affairs, I wouldn't be so certain that everything remains in the county clerk's office for much longer, either

Not the county clerk, the circuit clerk. That's an easily forgiven mistake because a lot of Kentuckians get the offices confused. The official titles are county court clerk and circuit court clerk. They have vastly different duties.

The county clerk is responsible for keeping minutes of fiscal court meetings. The fiscal court in Kentucky is basically the county legislature. It is made up of a county judge-executive and either magistrates or commissioners, depending on the county's preference. Years ago the CJE and magistrates actually had judicial powers concerning traffic offenses, and I think minor misdemeanors, but the judicial system was revamped by state constitutional amendment to remove their judicial powers. Now the fiscal court passes ordinances and approves the county budget.

The county clerk's office is also responsible for recording documents like deeds (and yes, issuing and recording marriage licenses), registering voters, administering elections and issuing license plates.

The circuit court clerk's office maintains court dockets for criminal and civil cases in district (misdemeanor, traffic and small claims suits) and circuit (felonies and other lawsuits) courts. They also issue driver's licenses, and can also register voters with the advent of "motor-voter" laws.

Moving driver licensing duties from the circuit clerk's office to KYTC would result in KYTC having to obtain office space in each of the 120 counties, plus possibly satellite offices in some of the larger counties. It would result in an additional expense.

My guess is that the court system is responsible for driver licensing because the decision was made that it would be logical since traffic offenses can result in license suspensions or revocations.


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