Question about the construction at I-44 and US-169 (Tulsa)

[sprjus4]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

[Bobby5280]

Texas seems to have more directional stack interchanges than any other state. But they don't build stacks at every freeway to freeway interchange. West Texas has a lot of "volleyball" interchanges or partial ones with only one or two flyover ramps. Still, it's impressive just how many complete stacks have been built in Texas.

By comparison, Oklahoma doesn't have diddly. I'm crossing my fingers about that proposed I-35 stack between Norman and Moore. But I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if OTA ended up watering down the design.

[Plutonic Panda]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

Loop ramps don't need to suffice. Flyovers do the job much better.

[Plutonic Panda]

I'm crossing my fingers about that proposed I-35 stack between Norman and Moore. But I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if OTA ended up watering down the design.

Yeah I'm right there with you. It would be a bummer if they did that but I wouldn't be surprised.

[sprjus4]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

Loop ramps don't need to suffice. Flyovers do the job much better.

They suffice.

[Plutonic Panda]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

Loop ramps don't need to suffice. Flyovers do the job much better.

They suffice.

Nope.

[kphoger]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

Loop ramps don't need to suffice. Flyovers do the job much better.

They suffice.

Nope.

They suffice.

[Plutonic Panda]

It should all flyovers even if traffic counts are lower. Flyovers are more efficient and time saving versus cloverleafs you don't have to slow down as much.

Flyovers also cost much greater, and if there is not the traffic warrants - a loop ramp will suffice. This isn't just an Oklahoma thing. Texas is one of the only, or just a few states, that puts in flyovers at every single junction.

Loop ramps don't need to suffice. Flyovers do the job much better.

They suffice.

Nope.

They suffice.

Nope.

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

[kphoger]

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

I think I've actually used more cloverleaf interchanges in Texas than in Oklahoma.  Offhand, I can think of I-35E/US-287 in Waxahachie, I-10/I-410 in San Antonio, and I-410/I-35 in San Antonio.

In Oklahoma, I can only think of I-35/US-412 in Noble County.  It's possible I've used one somewhere in Tulsa, but I'm not sure.

[Plutonic Panda]

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

I think I've actually used more cloverleaf interchanges in Texas than in Oklahoma.  Offhand, I can think of I-35E/US-287 in Waxahachie, I-10/I-410 in San Antonio, and I-410/I-35 in San Antonio.

In Oklahoma, I can only think of I-35/US-412 in Noble County.  It's possible I've used one somewhere in Tulsa, but I'm not sure.

Cloverleaves would be a bit more bearable if ODOT actually put stack in your changes in cities where they need to be. I get cloverleaf fatigue when I'm in Oklahoma. I can deal with them in Texas. it's also understandable that Texas leaves some interchanges as volleyball interchanges so they can upgrade them to stacks in the future. I understand Texas can't afford to build every single interchange as a stack at once. I'd rather Oklahoma build volleyball interchange with roads and plan to do it right rather than build a Cloverleaf interchange where that'll be there for the next 40-50+ years.

[Scott5114]

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

I feel like if Tim Gatz ever saw I-15 in Las Vegas he'd have to go back to the room and lie down for a while.

[Plutonic Panda]

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

I feel like if Tim Gatz ever saw I-15 in Las Vegas he'd have to go back to the room and lie down for a while.

One of the best stretches of freeway out there IMO. I do wish they'd go back to the dual free express lanes each way though.

BTW congrats on your Vegas move! I love that town. I go chance I get.

[Scott5114]

Thank you! I'm enjoying it here so far. Definitely a totally different culture than the OKC area. Much more laid back.

I-15 is pretty awesome from the sheer engineering spectacle of it all, but with the whole Tropicana interchange project going on, it's kind of a huge pain. I bet it's a blast when it's at 100% capability though.

[rte66man]

But if you think they do you'll love Oklahoma! Maybe one day our leaders can take a trip across the red river and get a clue.

I think I've actually used more cloverleaf interchanges in Texas than in Oklahoma.  Offhand, I can think of I-35E/US-287 in Waxahachie, I-10/I-410 in San Antonio, and I-410/I-35 in San Antonio.

In Oklahoma, I can only think of I-35/US-412 in Noble County.  It's possible I've used one somewhere in Tulsa, but I'm not sure.

I44/US64 and I44/US169 are the 2 biggies in Tulsa. They also have some blended interchanges where you have some flyovers and some loop ramps (I244/US169, CreekTpk/US75,I44/US412) and one in transition (I44/US75).  Despite all the whining from other board regulars, ODOT does build full interchanges without loop ramps. US75/OK11 comes to mind as well as all of the IDL corner quadrant interchanges.

I do not count OK364/OK351 as I will admit that is all OTA will ever do given the choice.

[Plutonic Panda]

Once again interchanges that are fully directional but have left exits are just as bad as cloverleafs in fact I'd rather have cloverleafs with right exits if that's the only option. As much as I hate cloverleafs I hate left exits even more.

[swake]

Once again interchanges that are fully directional but have left exits are just as bad as cloverleafs in fact I'd rather have cloverleafs with right exits if that's the only option. As much as I hate cloverleafs I hate left exits even more.

Why?

[Bobby5280]

Why are left exits bad? Weaving issues. In some cases the weaving issues are worse. Exiting traffic has to use what is traditionally the passing lane in order to exit. You end up with slow pokes in the left lane and more people trying to pass on the right. And then there are doofus types who don't know which lane to take, so they might come to a complete dead stop.

[swake]

Why are left exits bad? Weaving issues. In some cases the weaving issues are worse. Exiting traffic has to use what is traditionally the passing lane in order to exit. You end up with slow pokes in the left lane and more people trying to pass on the right. And then there are doofus types who don't know which lane to take, so they might come to a complete dead stop.

That doesn't bother me at all. Oklahoma and other drivers that have no idea how to merge, especially on and off a cloverleaf in heavy traffic, that scares me. Let's all come to a complete stop for no reason right before entering a highway going at 70mph? Sounds great!

[Bobby5280]

Here in Lawton there are no on-ramps for I-44 that are immune from some jack-ass coming to a full stop at the end of the ramp. The I-44 interchange with Cache Road and 2nd Street has a couple of different left exit points, particularly the EB I-44 to WB Cache Road off ramp. It's lots of fun if you're driving on that curving bridge over the railroad tracks and a clown cuts you off trying to exit left from the right lane at the last second.

[DJStephens]

I-40/I-44 is a substandard interchange with left exits and Tulsa's is the same thing.
Not this https://maps.app.goo.gl/rGwpn9b1gtS3QZrM8?g_st=ic  that's a joke

Very similar to the original "big I" in downtown Albuquerque.  Left exits, weaving, etc .  Worked in 1967 when new, but not in the nineties.   They, meaning ODOT, did spend a significant amount on this "glorified cloverleaf", meaning the bridging, they spent a significant fraction of having done it right, meaning two flyovers.  Not a full stack, but two flyovers.  44 EB to 169N, and 44WB to 169S.  That's where the demand is. Part of a national trend of design regression.     

[Plutonic Panda]

I-40/I-44 is a substandard interchange with left exits and Tulsa's is the same thing.
Not this https://maps.app.goo.gl/rGwpn9b1gtS3QZrM8?g_st=ic  that's a joke

Very similar to the original "big I" in downtown Albuquerque.  Left exits, weaving, etc .  Worked in 1967 when new, but not in the nineties.   They, meaning ODOT, did spend a significant amount on this "glorified cloverleaf", meaning the bridging, they spent a significant fraction of having done it right, meaning two flyovers.  Not a full stack, but two flyovers.  44 EB to 169N, and 44WB to 169S.  That's where the demand is. Part of a national trend of design regression.     

NMDOT did a great job on the Big I and it also helps that's basically the only major interchange in the state lol.

[DJStephens]

The big I redo was not perfect.  Several mistakes were made.  25 & 40 should have been four lanes in each direction through the core.  Several of the one lane flyovers probably should have been two lanes.   But overall, it was a big improvement upon the original 1966 interchange.   

I-10 and I-25, on S side of Las Cruces is the other interstate junction.  It's "rebuild' was not as good and was done on the Cheap.   Compression, of the entire interchange to the SE in order to "squeeze" in a future diamond interchange for Arrowhead Blvd on I-10 was likely the reason.