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New Jersey Gas Tax Increase

Started by cpzilliacus, September 30, 2016, 07:58:57 PM

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PHLBOS

Quote from: vdeane on November 02, 2016, 07:29:04 PMIt seems that most people are ignoring that aspect of my point while fixating on one aspect of it.
From your earlier post (reposted below with bold emphasis added):

Quote from: vdeane on November 01, 2016, 06:17:54 PMAnd that's on top of losing the people who only went to NJ to get gas, or were specifically maximizing the amount bought in NJ.
I hate to say this but you were the first one on this thread to insinuate that many were driving to NJ just to get gas and then return.

My reply to your earlier post was based on 26 years of living near the Delaware River (outside of Philly) and from my own observations.  If it weren't for the numerous tolled crossings; maybe there would be more people border-hopping into the Garden State strictly for the purpose of refueling.
GPS does NOT equal GOD


jeffandnicole

And if you think the elected officials may want to consider self-serve...well, it's a consideration dead on arrival:  http://www.nj.com/politics/index.ssf/2016/11/will_lawmakers_end_the_self-serve_gas_ban_to_ease.html#incart_river_home

And in other road related news, this question (which has been answered many times in the newspaper already) was asked and answered again, regarding traffic light sensors:
http://www.nj.com/traffic/index.ssf/2016/11/are_those_cameras_perched_on_traffic_lights_spying.html#incart_river_home

bzakharin

Someone recently said to me in a conversation about this that full serve is actually cheaper than self serve because the lower insurance charged for having trained professionals pump your gas offsets the extra expense of hiring the attendants. This argument sounds fishy to me. Is there any truth to it?

cl94

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 09:04:02 AM
My reply to your earlier post was based on 26 years of living near the Delaware River (outside of Philly) and from my own observations.  If it weren't for the numerous tolled crossings; maybe there would be more people border-hopping into the Garden State strictly for the purpose of refueling.

That's different from North Jersey, where people in Rockland, southern Orange and driving on the Thruway would pop over to 17 or Montvale for a cheap fill-up. I know I'm far from the only person who did that because I have seen many get gas and immediately turn around and return to New York.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

PHLBOS

Quote from: cl94 on November 03, 2016, 01:11:41 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 09:04:02 AM
My reply to your earlier post was based on 26 years of living near the Delaware River (outside of Philly) and from my own observations.  If it weren't for the numerous tolled crossings; maybe there would be more people border-hopping into the Garden State strictly for the purpose of refueling.

That's different from North Jersey, where people in Rockland, southern Orange and driving on the Thruway would pop over to 17 or Montvale for a cheap fill-up. I know I'm far from the only person who did that because I have seen many get gas and immediately turn around and return to New York.
That area's one exception.  From the metropolitan NYC area and south; the tolled river/border crossings make such cost prohibitive.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

cl94

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 01:18:18 PM
Quote from: cl94 on November 03, 2016, 01:11:41 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 09:04:02 AM
My reply to your earlier post was based on 26 years of living near the Delaware River (outside of Philly) and from my own observations.  If it weren't for the numerous tolled crossings; maybe there would be more people border-hopping into the Garden State strictly for the purpose of refueling.

That's different from North Jersey, where people in Rockland, southern Orange and driving on the Thruway would pop over to 17 or Montvale for a cheap fill-up. I know I'm far from the only person who did that because I have seen many get gas and immediately turn around and return to New York.
That area's one exception.  From the metropolitan NYC area and south; the tolled river/border crossings make such cost prohibitive.

Depends on the savings and size of the fill-up. Up near the Canadian border, people cross just for gas all the time, even near Buffalo where it's a $3.50 toll and a long wait at customs.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

vdeane

Quote from: bzakharin on November 03, 2016, 12:34:45 PM
Someone recently said to me in a conversation about this that full serve is actually cheaper than self serve because the lower insurance charged for having trained professionals pump your gas offsets the extra expense of hiring the attendants. This argument sounds fishy to me. Is there any truth to it?
If there was, I would think we'd have a lot more full serve across the rest of the country.

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 09:04:02 AM
Quote from: vdeane on November 02, 2016, 07:29:04 PMIt seems that most people are ignoring that aspect of my point while fixating on one aspect of it.
From your earlier post (reposted below with bold emphasis added):

Quote from: vdeane on November 01, 2016, 06:17:54 PMAnd that's on top of losing the people who only went to NJ to get gas, or were specifically maximizing the amount bought in NJ.
I hate to say this but you were the first one on this thread to insinuate that many were driving to NJ just to get gas and then return.

My reply to your earlier post was based on 26 years of living near the Delaware River (outside of Philly) and from my own observations.  If it weren't for the numerous tolled crossings; maybe there would be more people border-hopping into the Garden State strictly for the purpose of refueling.
I have expanded the bold emphasis and included underlining to emphasize the rest of my point, which you seem to be ignoring so you can attack me.  And yes, I remember people at the Tuxedo roadmeet mentioning dipping into NJ before heading back north to get gas.  You may think of the Hudson Valley/Northern NJ area as an exception, but as a lifelong resident of upstate NY, my perspective is of this area, not down south.

And I'm not the first.  From a comment on one of the articles jeffandnicole just shared:
QuoteI'm amazed that there's actually a school of thought that people come over from New York or Pennsylvania for the "convenience" of full serve. People drive to NJ to fill up because its cheaper. That's it. Waiting for a gas attendant to finally come over to your car to fill the tank and take your payment, then wander off to another vehicle, then another, then another, then finally come back to your car so you can actually leave is not a convenience.

And yeah, it's not convenient at all to have to deal with a jockey.  I intent to never refuel in NJ again if I can avoid it on that count alone.  It was one thing when it was cheap.  It's another when the price is nearly the same as everywhere else.  There are others on this forum who wouldn't get gas in NJ even when it was cheap because of the self-serve ban.  If they care so much about having full serve, make it mandatory for gas stations to offer it on at least half the pumps.  Don't take away the choice from the rest of us.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jwolfer

Quote from: bzakharin on November 03, 2016, 12:34:45 PM
Someone recently said to me in a conversation about this that full serve is actually cheaper than self serve because the lower insurance charged for having trained professionals pump your gas offsets the extra expense of hiring the attendants. This argument sounds fishy to me. Is there any truth to it?
Pumping gas is VERY difficult and complex. 

I am certain gas stations in New Jersey spend a lot on training for their attendants. Sending them off to gas pumping seminars for weekends

Here's an idea, the state could start requiring licenced gas pump attendants. There could be a $250 fee for the licence. And to protect the public there should be $1000 fine for unlicenced gas pumping.

LGMS428

PHLBOS

Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2016, 01:26:58 PMIf they care so much about having full serve, make it mandatory for gas stations to offer it on at least half the pumps.  Don't take away the choice from the rest of us.
In southeastern PA, some stations do offer full-serve pumps along with self-serve pumps; but the price for full-serve, on average, is about 30 cents/gallon higher than the adjacent self-serve price.

In eastern MA (North Shore area), stations offering full-service are getting rarer but the prices were comparable to self-serve stations.  My mother, who never pumped her own gas in her 60 years of driving, cursed the day that the Salem, MA Prime Energy station expanded but eliminated full-serve.  When that happened, I jokingly recommended that she move to NJ or Oregon.  Fortunately, for her, there are still a couple of stations in neighboring Swampscott that offer full-serve.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

cl94

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2016, 01:26:58 PMIf they care so much about having full serve, make it mandatory for gas stations to offer it on at least half the pumps.  Don't take away the choice from the rest of us.
In southeastern PA, some stations do offer full-serve pumps along with self-serve pumps; but the price for full-serve, on average, is about 30 cents/gallon higher than the adjacent self-serve price.

In eastern MA (North Shore area), stations offering full-service are getting rarer but the prices were comparable to self-serve stations.  My mother, who never pumped her own gas in her 60 years of driving, cursed the day that the Salem, MA Prime Energy station expanded but eliminated full-serve.  When that happened, I jokingly recommended that she move to NJ or Oregon.  Fortunately, for her, there are still a couple of stations in neighboring Swampscott that offer full-serve.

Heck, there are even a decent amount of full-serve stations here in Albany. I can think of several within a 10-15 minute drive of my apartment. Buffalo has quite a few as well.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jwolfer on November 03, 2016, 01:31:50 PM
...And to protect the public there should be $1000 fine for unlicenced gas pumping.

LGMS428


There is a fine to the gas station if they allow someone to pump their own gas.  From anything I can tell, no one has ever been charged with this 'crime'. I don't even know if it's something the police would deal with, or if it's another organization from the state that would be in charge of fining a station.

Quote from: cl94 on November 03, 2016, 01:25:05 PM
Depends on the savings and size of the fill-up. Up near the Canadian border, people cross just for gas all the time, even near Buffalo where it's a $3.50 toll and a long wait at customs.

Why would someone cross the border to save a few dollars ($20 at the most) for gas but yet wait an hour or two in line...wasting that gas?

Again, I can see people fueling up prior to crossing, but I doubt there's very many that would take up their afternoon just to get gas.


cl94

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 03, 2016, 02:14:54 PM
Why would someone cross the border to save a few dollars ($20 at the most) for gas but yet wait an hour or two in line...wasting that gas?

Again, I can see people fueling up prior to crossing, but I doubt there's very many that would take up their afternoon just to get gas.

Depends on fuel economy, size of tank, exchange rate and whether or not they have NEXUS. It's only about a $9 savings if getting 10 gallons with the current exchange rate, but when things were par, you could save $20, especially if they crossed at the Whirlpool Bridge which never has a wait (NEXUS only).
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

bzakharin

Quote from: PHLBOS on November 03, 2016, 01:53:44 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2016, 01:26:58 PMIf they care so much about having full serve, make it mandatory for gas stations to offer it on at least half the pumps.  Don't take away the choice from the rest of us.
In southeastern PA, some stations do offer full-serve pumps along with self-serve pumps; but the price for full-serve, on average, is about 30 cents/gallon higher than the adjacent self-serve price.

In eastern MA (North Shore area), stations offering full-service are getting rarer but the prices were comparable to self-serve stations.  My mother, who never pumped her own gas in her 60 years of driving, cursed the day that the Salem, MA Prime Energy station expanded but eliminated full-serve.  When that happened, I jokingly recommended that she move to NJ or Oregon.  Fortunately, for her, there are still a couple of stations in neighboring Swampscott that offer full-serve.
I remember a Mobil station in Northeast Philly proudly proclaiming "We pump your gas - Sam Price!". Of course, said price was around what other full serve stations in that area charged.

NJRoadfan

Plenty of people duck into NJ to get fuel and other things that are taxed less, like smokes. The size of the stations on NJ-23 in Montague off of I-84 NY Exit 1 is proof enough. People from PA cross over all the time to go to liquor stores that don't suck and have better hours, the cheap gas is part of the trip.

PHLBOS

Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 03, 2016, 04:40:53 PMPlenty of people duck into NJ to get fuel and other things that are taxed less, like smokes.
The varying cigarette taxes, depending on the state, can conceivably create a situation where a pack or carton sold in State A costing twice as much as the same item sold in State B.  Definitely an incentive to buy outside or across state lines for sure.

However, I don't believe we've gotten to the point yet where the total price per gallon of gas in one state costing twice as much as in a nearby or adjacent state.   

BTW, Delaware has lower taxes on cigarettes than PA and NJ.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jeffandnicole

Quote from: NJRoadfan on November 03, 2016, 04:40:53 PM
Plenty of people duck into NJ to get fuel and other things that are taxed less, like smokes. The size of the stations on NJ-23 in Montague off of I-84 NY Exit 1 is proof enough.

I see 6 stations there.  Not unusual. Using GSV, none of them have all that many cars at the stations.

Basically, there's a bunch of stations off an interstate highway interchange.  A sight repeated thousands of times everywhere.

vdeane

Obviously nobody was driving all day just to get gas in NJ.  That would be absurd.  But if you live or are passing by the border, I could see people getting gas where they otherwise wouldn't have, which was the whole point, which people seem to miss.  Now, NJ 23 is a rural area, so it's mainly going to see people who know that the NY/NJ/PA tripoint is near there.  But somewhere more urban, or more obvious (like a highway service plaza)?  Sure.  But, of course, hoards don't all descent at once; the out of state travelers don't all coordinate with posts like "lets all get gas right when the Google street view car goes by".  There's only so far that's economical to divert, or to top off.

I was talking about people who live in Ramapo getting gas in Mahwah, or people with 3/4 tank refueling at the last station in NJ, not people driving dozens of miles just for some gas.  Good grief.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

NJRoadfan

They definitely dip down from Rockland, at one point I recall it was $1/gal less to fill up in NJ!

jeffandnicole

Quote from: vdeane on November 03, 2016, 09:25:23 PM
But, of course, hoards don't all descent at once; the out of state travelers don't all coordinate with posts like "lets all get gas right when the Google street view car goes by".  There's only so far that's economical to divert, or to top off.

I know that...but the points of people saying that people come down all the time and pointing out all the gas stations there, combined with a random drive by of the gsv vehicle, shows that there aren't legions of vehicles lining up for gas.

And while I hear your points loud and clear that some people may have gotten gas that otherwise wouldn't have, and now they'll just keep driving...we'll just have to wait and see. Some people may continue to do it out of habit. Then again, I see plenty of people getting gas on 95 In Delaware which has historically been much higher in price.  For many people, they simply see that their tank is 1/4 full and it's time to get gas. They don't even see the price on the sign.

KEVIN_224

I've been to the Citgo at the NY/NJ line off of I-84 Exit 1 from NY. I don't remember what the prices were, but was amazed that the parking lot's north edge was literally only a couple feet from the line. My friend wasn't buying gas. I believe this was back in 2011.

PHLBOS

Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 03, 2016, 09:58:59 PMThen again, I see plenty of people getting gas on 95 In Delaware which has historically been much higher in price.  For many people, they simply see that their tank is 1/4 full and it's time to get gas. They don't even see the price on the sign.
Especially if they're paying with plastic (credit or debit card).
GPS does NOT equal GOD

Zeffy

9 gallons today cost me $19. Gas price was $2.25 per gallon. That's maybe a $3 increase from what it was last week.

I guess it would have more of an impact on cars that have bigger fuel tanks, but at least for me it's nothing I will complain about.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

jeffandnicole

Quote from: Zeffy on November 04, 2016, 02:04:53 PM
9 gallons today cost me $19. Gas price was $2.25 per gallon. That's maybe a $3 increase from what it was last week.

I guess it would have more of an impact on cars that have bigger fuel tanks, but at least for me it's nothing I will complain about.

It should be about a $2.25 increase.  Gas went up 23 cents overnight, along with about 2 +/- cents for daily variations.

9 gallons last week, at about $2.00 a gallon, would've cost you $18.00.

9 gallons this week, at about $2.25 a gallon, would've cost you $20.25.

If you paid $19 at $2.25/gallon, then you got 8.444 gallons, which would've cost you $16.89 last week.

Per Gasbuddy, there still are a few stations under $2 a gallon.  And I noticed that the highest priced stations, that charged $2.99 or $2.79 and never changed them previously, appears to still not be changing them and eating the cost increase.  Then again, they're probably not trying real hard to sell gas either.

Zeffy

The 8.4 gallons sounds about right. I was rounding everything because I didn't feel like digging out the receipt from this morning.
Life would be boring if we didn't take an offramp every once in a while

A weird combination of a weather geek, roadgeek, car enthusiast and furry mixed with many anxiety related disorders

Brandon

Quote from: jwolfer on November 03, 2016, 01:31:50 PM
Quote from: bzakharin on November 03, 2016, 12:34:45 PM
Someone recently said to me in a conversation about this that full serve is actually cheaper than self serve because the lower insurance charged for having trained professionals pump your gas offsets the extra expense of hiring the attendants. This argument sounds fishy to me. Is there any truth to it?

Pumping gas is VERY difficult and complex. 

So complex, any idiot can do it.  Oh, wait, I see it all the time here in Illinois, people pumping their own gasoline without a gas jockey.  Oh, the horror!  Oh, the humanity!

/And I'm sincerely hoping jwolfer meant his comment as snark.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg



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