Is KC really going to remove i-70 downtown?

[silverback1065]

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/01/30/10-urban-freeways-that-need-to-come-down/

I saw this yesterday on my phone, is this serious? or just some crackpot blogger trying to get more people to talk about it?

[hbelkins]

some crackpot blogger trying to get more people to talk about it?

Yes.

[froggie]

It's not crackpot.  Freeways are expensive to maintain.  When they come to the end of their physical life, it's a very valid consideration to see if other alternatives are worthwhile.  And as Baloo just noted, the city, MPO, and state have been looking into it, at least as far back as this past summer.

I've conceptualized a way to potentially remove parts of the northern (I-35/70) leg of the downtown loop, namely the leg between US 169 and MO 9.  It would involve upgrades to I-670 (it's theoretically possible to squeeze another lane in each direction on 670's part of the downtown loop, even under the Convention Center), connecting US 169 to the west (I-35) leg, and better connecting MO 9 to 29/35, but it's theoretically possible and would better tie downtown and the Financial District to the River Market area.

I'm not convinced that removing a much larger segment of I-70 is feasible, but I do think the above-mentioned segment has potential.

I've also read some suggestions about relocating I-35 to a corridor along/next to the railroads from the state line up to I-70, but the topography (there's a decent hill just east of the tracks) plus the design of the 12th St Bridge make that doubtful.

[silverback1065]

I actually think i-70 should be routed onto 670, and realign 169 to meet the NW corner of the loop

[Brandon]

Adam, it's very crackpot.  You're not taking about a glorified ramp here, but a major cross country freeway.

[froggie]

^ A "major cross country freeway" with at least one viable alternative and a couple bypass options outside of the downtown area.  It's not as crackpot as you're making it out to be.

[mvak36]

I'm not sure that I like it because you're going to be putting a lot of traffic on that one stretch of highway. Both are used pretty heavily (at least all the times I've been through there).

The other thing to keep in mind is that MODOT doesn't have the money to take on this big of a project. My guess would be KCMO would have to pay a huge chunk of the project cost to do this. But they have their own issues. They're trying to get an $800 million infrastructure bond passed in April that would go towards maintenance of roads, bridges, curbs, sidewalks, etc. After that, they are probably going to try to get a new airport terminal built at MCI because of the threat (perceived or real) of Kansas building a brand new airport in Johnson County, which they just might if the people in KCMO still want to keep the existing terminals the way they are. So I'm not sure it's that much of a priority for them either.

But if these New Urbanists want to pay for it, they're more than welcome to.

[Brandon]

^ A "major cross country freeway" with at least one viable alternative and a couple bypass options outside of the downtown area.  It's not as crackpot as you're making it out to be.

It's quite crackpot.  Name the real viable alternate options, and I-670 doesn't cut it due to sheer lack of size.

[Plutonic Panda]

Hopefully the sensible decision is made and it is rebuilt and widened as needed if it needs it.

[hbelkins]

I never understood why I-670 is the through route and I-70 takes such a convoluted route.

[The Ghostbuster]

I think if streetsblog.org had their way, all urban freeways would be demolished. Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration. I'm not a proponent of freeway demolition, my main concern about such is where would the traffic that uses the existing targeted freeway go? It's not like its just going to magically disappear.

[Bobby5280]

I'm guessing some of these New Urbanist types have never experienced getting into a true Manhattan style grid-lock traffic jam. They must believe the larger glut of stop & go traffic will all just somehow move in harmony. Or maybe they think people will only use mass transit to get to or go thru the downtown areas. Nevertheless there are at least a few proposals or projects in progress across the country to remove significant downtown sections of freeway:
- Rochester Inner Loop
- Alaskan Way Viaduct, Seattle
- I-70 North of Downtown Denver
- I-45 around the west side of Downtown Houston
- US-75 between Downtown Dallas & Deep Ellum
- I-280 in Downtown San Francisco
- I-980 in Downtown Oakland
- I-375 in Downtown Detroit
- I-81 in Downtown Syracuse
- I-190 in Downtown Buffalo

I think very disruptive changes to outlets of entertainment and brick & mortar retail may threaten a lot of this "new urbanist" activity. I'm a big movie fan, but I think that entire industry may have a very bleak future thanks to very idiotic moves that are marginalizing the theater business. Without theaters there will be no movie industry. It will all just be TV. The music industry is a shadow of its former self, yet concert ticket price inflation has been outrageous in recent years. Rising pro sports event ticket prices could be their own bubble economy. Stadium price inflation is breaking the bank. More taxpayers are saying no to these billion dollar proposals. Many brick & mortar retailers are under increasing pressure from online merchants, with sales tax being a major problem for retailers with a store front. All is not good in just about every area of "downtown redevelopment" in major cities. But they're plowing along as if these problems don't exist. Let's also not forget the living spaces in many of these downtown mixed use developments usually carry prices so high they should be considered obscene.

With all that being said, freeways are still going to be very very important. And the suburbs are only going to get bigger and bigger. With so much entertainment and commerce taking place online there is less and less need to hop some light rail train to the downtown area.

[Duke87]

I never understood why I-670 is the through route and I-70 takes such a convoluted route.

I-670 west of I-35 wasn't finished until ca. 1990, a good ~25 years after I-70 through KC was completed.

It stands to reason that when this section opened KS and MO opted to simply extend the 670 designation rather than potentially cause confusion changing the signs on the road everyone already knew as I-70. Or didn't even consider moving I-70 since we're putting more thought into this right now than they did then.

[silverback1065]

I'm guessing some of these New Urbanist types have never experienced getting into a true Manhattan style grid-lock traffic jam. They must believe the larger glut of stop & go traffic will all just somehow move in harmony. Or maybe they think people will only use mass transit to get to or go thru the downtown areas. Nevertheless there are at least a few proposals or projects in progress across the country to remove significant downtown sections of freeway:
- Rochester Inner Loop
- Alaskan Way Viaduct, Seattle
- I-70 North of Downtown Denver
- I-45 around the west side of Downtown Houston
- US-75 between Downtown Dallas & Deep Ellum
- I-280 in Downtown San Francisco
- I-980 in Downtown Oakland
- I-375 in Downtown Detroit
- I-81 in Downtown Syracuse
- I-190 in Downtown Buffalo

I think very disruptive changes to outlets of entertainment and brick & mortar retail may threaten a lot of this "new urbanist" activity. I'm a big movie fan, but I think that entire industry may have a very bleak future thanks to very idiotic moves that are marginalizing the theater business. Without theaters there will be no movie industry. It will all just be TV. The music industry is a shadow of its former self, yet concert ticket price inflation has been outrageous in recent years. Rising pro sports event ticket prices could be their own bubble economy. Stadium price inflation is breaking the bank. More taxpayers are saying no to these billion dollar proposals. Many brick & mortar retailers are under increasing pressure from online merchants, with sales tax being a major problem for retailers with a store front. All is not good in just about every area of "downtown redevelopment" in major cities. But they're plowing along as if these problems don't exist. Let's also not forget the living spaces in many of these downtown mixed use developments usually carry prices so high they should be considered obscene.

With all that being said, freeways are still going to be very very important. And the suburbs are only going to get bigger and bigger. With so much entertainment and commerce taking place online there is less and less need to hop some light rail train to the downtown area.

280 (east of us 101) and 375 should go, 81 never should have went through syracuse.  the rest need to stay.  they should also realign the freeway stub for us 101 to completely line up with van ness ave.  190 seriously makes no sense to me, where would that traffic go? they're already removing 198

[RoadMaster09]

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/01/30/10-urban-freeways-that-need-to-come-down/

I saw this yesterday on my phone, is this serious? or just some crackpot blogger trying to get more people to talk about it?

If that were to come down, the most logical routing IMO would be via I-235 around the northwest corner, with the rest of what is now I-70 becoming some odd I-x70.

[Scott5114]

http://usa.streetsblog.org/2017/01/30/10-urban-freeways-that-need-to-come-down/

I saw this yesterday on my phone, is this serious? or just some crackpot blogger trying to get more people to talk about it?

If that were to come down, the most logical routing IMO would be via I-235 around the northwest corner, with the rest of what is now I-70 becoming some odd I-x70.

Do you mean I-435? I-235 is in Wichita.

[stwoodbury]

I'm guessing some of these New Urbanist types have never experienced getting into a true Manhattan style grid-lock traffic jam. They must believe the larger glut of stop & go traffic will all just somehow move in harmony. Or maybe they think people will only use mass transit to get to or go thru the downtown areas. Nevertheless there are at least a few proposals or projects in progress across the country to remove significant downtown sections of freeway:
- Rochester Inner Loop
- Alaskan Way Viaduct, Seattle
- I-70 North of Downtown Denver
- I-45 around the west side of Downtown Houston
- US-75 between Downtown Dallas & Deep Ellum
- I-280 in Downtown San Francisco
- I-980 in Downtown Oakland
- I-375 in Downtown Detroit
- I-81 in Downtown Syracuse
- I-190 in Downtown Buffalo

I think very disruptive changes to outlets of entertainment and brick & mortar retail may threaten a lot of this "new urbanist" activity. I'm a big movie fan, but I think that entire industry may have a very bleak future thanks to very idiotic moves that are marginalizing the theater business. Without theaters there will be no movie industry. It will all just be TV. The music industry is a shadow of its former self, yet concert ticket price inflation has been outrageous in recent years. Rising pro sports event ticket prices could be their own bubble economy. Stadium price inflation is breaking the bank. More taxpayers are saying no to these billion dollar proposals. Many brick & mortar retailers are under increasing pressure from online merchants, with sales tax being a major problem for retailers with a store front. All is not good in just about every area of "downtown redevelopment" in major cities. But they're plowing along as if these problems don't exist. Let's also not forget the living spaces in many of these downtown mixed use developments usually carry prices so high they should be considered obscene.

With all that being said, freeways are still going to be very very important. And the suburbs are only going to get bigger and bigger. With so much entertainment and commerce taking place online there is less and less need to hop some light rail train to the downtown area.

The downtown as the primary retail core for a metro area is long past. Same for much productive work in a metro area. Most of my adult working career has been in the suburbs. But nonetheless cities are still drawing massive crowds. I do a lot of my shopping online but I still like the thrill of going downtown with all the pedestrian crowds but mostly I am going as a tourist. Not sure I would want to live downtown, even if the costs are not prohibitive, but I still like to go. And brick and mortar stores have a certain tactile and face to face contact that online commerce lacks. The massive crowds I saw in central London, Brussels, Antwerp, and Denver last year suggest that the city is not quite finished. Admittedly Denver was not nearly as busy as my European examples, but it was not exactly deserted. Also mostAmerican  urban centers have seen an increase in the number of people living right downtown - nothing like the growth on the suburban fringe, but still a significant change to the long downward trend that began in the 40s and 50s.Seattle has grown from 490,000 in 1980 to pushing 700,000 today, which is exceptional, but most other cities have passed the lowpoint as well. New York City is at an all time high with its population in excess of eight million. Cities are a niche, but not they are not on the verge of going away.

The removal of large highways in American cities actually fits this model because it frees up more space for other development, and it reduces noise. If most people going downtown today are tourists, spectators at a ballpark, or a growing number of residents living there without owning a car (even if they are a fraction of the total metro population), do you need all those ten plus lane highways to accommodate a declining work force and a largely tourist retail base?

[Henry]

Then what happens to the Alphabet Loop? I-70 should go where I-670 is anyway. And no matter what, I don't see it on that list anyway.

[kphoger]

The massive crowds I saw in ... Denver last year suggest that the city is not quite finished. Admittedly Denver was not nearly as busy as my European examples, but it was not exactly deserted.

I remember when downtown Denver was fairly deserted.  They made a concerted effort to keep it alive back in the 90s.

[Brandon]

The removal of large highways in American cities actually fits this model because it frees up more space for other development, and it reduces noise. If most people going downtown today are tourists, spectators at a ballpark, or a growing number of residents living there without owning a car (even if they are a fraction of the total metro population), do you need all those ten plus lane highways to accommodate a declining work force and a largely tourist retail base?

That said, the model for European cities and North American cities is a bit different.  There is a decided lack of density in North American cities when compared to their European kin.  The densest North American cities by far are San Francisco and New York.  New York is actually dense enough that transit works rather well.  Not so much in other areas, which tend to be more car-based by default due to said lack of density.  This is something the freeway teardown folks tend to forget, and it's a bit of very wishful thinking on their part.

[kphoger]

Kansas City's public transit network is pretty crappy, as evidenced by the fact that you seldom see more than a few people riding a bus.  But that doesn't mean it couldn't be good.  In fact, Saint Louis–just on the other side of the state–is so much better when it comes to transit.

[silverback1065]

I'm guessing some of these New Urbanist types have never experienced getting into a true Manhattan style grid-lock traffic jam. They must believe the larger glut of stop & go traffic will all just somehow move in harmony. Or maybe they think people will only use mass transit to get to or go thru the downtown areas. Nevertheless there are at least a few proposals or projects in progress across the country to remove significant downtown sections of freeway:
- Rochester Inner Loop
- Alaskan Way Viaduct, Seattle
- I-70 North of Downtown Denver
- I-45 around the west side of Downtown Houston
- US-75 between Downtown Dallas & Deep Ellum
- I-280 in Downtown San Francisco
- I-980 in Downtown Oakland
- I-375 in Downtown Detroit
- I-81 in Downtown Syracuse
- I-190 in Downtown Buffalo

I think very disruptive changes to outlets of entertainment and brick & mortar retail may threaten a lot of this "new urbanist" activity. I'm a big movie fan, but I think that entire industry may have a very bleak future thanks to very idiotic moves that are marginalizing the theater business. Without theaters there will be no movie industry. It will all just be TV. The music industry is a shadow of its former self, yet concert ticket price inflation has been outrageous in recent years. Rising pro sports event ticket prices could be their own bubble economy. Stadium price inflation is breaking the bank. More taxpayers are saying no to these billion dollar proposals. Many brick & mortar retailers are under increasing pressure from online merchants, with sales tax being a major problem for retailers with a store front. All is not good in just about every area of "downtown redevelopment" in major cities. But they're plowing along as if these problems don't exist. Let's also not forget the living spaces in many of these downtown mixed use developments usually carry prices so high they should be considered obscene.

With all that being said, freeways are still going to be very very important. And the suburbs are only going to get bigger and bigger. With so much entertainment and commerce taking place online there is less and less need to hop some light rail train to the downtown area.

The downtown as the primary retail core for a metro area is long past. Same for much productive work in a metro area. Most of my adult working career has been in the suburbs. But nonetheless cities are still drawing massive crowds. I do a lot of my shopping online but I still like the thrill of going downtown with all the pedestrian crowds but mostly I am going as a tourist. Not sure I would want to live downtown, even if the costs are not prohibitive, but I still like to go. And brick and mortar stores have a certain tactile and face to face contact that online commerce lacks. The massive crowds I saw in central London, Brussels, Antwerp, and Denver last year suggest that the city is not quite finished. Admittedly Denver was not nearly as busy as my European examples, but it was not exactly deserted. Also mostAmerican  urban centers have seen an increase in the number of people living right downtown - nothing like the growth on the suburban fringe, but still a significant change to the long downward trend that began in the 40s and 50s.Seattle has grown from 490,000 in 1980 to pushing 700,000 today, which is exceptional, but most other cities have passed the lowpoint as well. New York City is at an all time high with its population in excess of eight million. Cities are a niche, but not they are not on the verge of going away.

The removal of large highways in American cities actually fits this model because it frees up more space for other development, and it reduces noise. If most people going downtown today are tourists, spectators at a ballpark, or a growing number of residents living there without owning a car (even if they are a fraction of the total metro population), do you need all those ten plus lane highways to accommodate a declining work force and a largely tourist retail base?

but i think we still need these highways to get the suburbanites to downtown, since they still have to have a car.

[Revive 755]

^ A "major cross country freeway" with at least one viable alternative and a couple bypass options outside of the downtown area.  It's not as crackpot as you're making it out to be.

Technically two major, mostly cross country freeways, since I-35 also shares part of the section in question, and could gain a nasty weave if shifted to I-670.

From MoDOT's traffic volume maps, it would appear there are a decent number of trucks that use the section of I-70 between the western I-35 interchange and the 3rd Street/Fairfax trafficway interchange in KCK.



I see MARC has also given Bruce Watkins Drive an interstate designation as well

[ARMOURERERIC]

I think that the loop in KC is so small that they should reconfigure it as a 6 lane one way counter clockwise loop.

[Plutonic Panda]

Great post