Will Rogers Turnpike Toll Question

[catch22]

I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.

I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit.  How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin?  (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.)  The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point.  This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.

[okroads]

If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.

[catch22]

If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.

Thanks!

[Brandon]

If going westbound, you pay the toll at the ramp toll plaza if you exit at the Miami, Afton, or Vinita exits. Between the Vinita & Big Cabin exits, there is the mainline toll plaza, where toll is paid in full, no matter where you get off the turnpike. If exiting at Big Cabin or Claremore, then you present your toll receipt that you got at the mainline toll plaza, and you will receive a refund of the difference in the toll rate.

Pardon me, but that's got to be one of the screwier systems for collecting tolls.

[Scott5114]

And OTA is one of the screwier toll agencies. What's new?

[Road Hog]

I always thought Oklahoma had its toll systems rather well figured out, at least on the Turner and Will Rogers. You get halfway and pay your full toll there. Beyond that, you got partially refunded when you exit unless you drive the whole way. Before the halfway point, you pay when you get off.

It was like $3 to drive from OKC to Tulsa the last time I was up that way. I'm told it's $4 now. For 88 miles, not bad.

[bugo]

One night I made it from one end of the Turner Turnpike to the other in 57 minutes.

[bugo]

I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.

I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit.  How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin?  (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.)  The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point.  This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.

Just buy a Pikepass and you won't have to worry about it.  I went to the casino near the OK/KS/MO tripoint to see Cody Canada And The Departed play and the cash lanes were backed up several cars deep.  I whizzed by at 80 with my Pikepass and didn't lose 10 minutes.

[WichitaRoads]

Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?

Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.

Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.

ICTRds

[thenetwork]

Not sure about the transponders, but I recall on at least one occasion when I shared a ride with a couple of people to get from college to home.  And using the Ohio Turnpike, the driver got a little lecture about driving too fast as he was paying the toll (I believe they were averaging about 80 MPH in the then 55-zones).

I don't think the turnpike authorities can do much to penalize a speeder.  There seems to be too many variables on ticketed and non-ticketed toll roads that could be used to challenge such an accusation and/or citation.  Plus, if you were to challenge the ticket in court, who would be the "witness" on the law enforcement side that would confirm that they physically saw you speeding?

[Brandon]

Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?

Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.

Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.

ICTRds

If that were to occur, they'd lose users of their systems overnight.  For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) has said that this data will not be used for speed patrol reasons.  They know that they'd lose a lot of users PDQ over something like that, and maybe even incur the wrath of their own Illinois State Police district (District 15).

[leroys73]

I'm planning a trip from Detroit to Dallas, and one of possible routes I'm considering is I-44 west to US-69 south at Big Cabin, OK, which raises a question.

I've only traveled the Will Rogers Turnpike from end to end ever since the ticketing system went away, paying the cash toll at the midpoint toll plaza, which is just east of the Big Cabin exit.  How is the toll handled for westbound traffic which then exits at Big Cabin?  (Or, for that matter, any other exit before Tulsa.)  The OTA web site is not real helpful on this point.  This is not a big deal one way or the other, I'm just curious.

Just buy a Pikepass and you won't have to worry about it.  I went to the casino near the OK/KS/MO tripoint to see Cody Canada And The Departed play and the cash lanes were backed up several cars deep.  I whizzed by at 80 with my Pikepass and didn't lose 10 minutes.

If from Detroit why would a person want a pike pass?

[leroys73]

Maybe a little off-topic, but has anyone thought about the possibility of TA's tracking speed on those who use K-Tag, PikePass, etc., by estimating speed based on entrance and exit times in the system?

Not that I am encouraging this, but since they have your address, etc., the local Highway Patrol could mail you a ticket, like they do with red-light cameras.

Hoping they never do this... I like to fly a little low on the KTA.

ICTRds

If that were to occur, they'd lose users of their systems overnight.  For example, the Illinois State Toll Highway Authority (ISTHA) has said that this data will not be used for speed patrol reasons.  They know that they'd lose a lot of users PDQ over something like that, and maybe even incur the wrath of their own Illinois State Police district (District 15).

Oh yes but shall we not forget the camel with its nose under the tent.  This is a  for sure probable in the future.  They use cameras for speeders why not toll times?  Cameras tie the vehicle to the time.  Challenge in court, big deal.  Who owns the courts?   

You may call me wacko but just keep up on your history and how our governments have progressed to control our lives.  Now insurance companies are giving discounts for use of the "black box".  When will it be required?  Why do you think they want them?  If you happen to be speeding at the time of the accident, ZAP... you are SOL on your claim that the other guy screwed up.

As far as losing users, why?  People still don't believe they will get caught running red lights with cameras.  Ah, cameras =  tickets.  Do bad guys stop carrying guns because they are not suppose to?  Even so, for us legal people running the speed limit on the toll roads they are usually faster than not using them.   

I personally hate toll roads.  But I must use them when I need to make time.     

Come on folks, if a government can make money off of you they will by hook or crook.  And control is a bonus.

[WichitaRoads]

Looks like I got things all stirred up! I see the "losing users" idea... if they're tagging ya by using the transponders, just take the ticket and pay a little more. But, since the tickets are fed into a computer, too... same data can be collected on your start and end times, and figuring an average speed. Only differences are no address and name. But, they could think of something!

However, I also think that this is an idea whose time is come, if we like it or not. The idea of the expansion of government is clear... no matter who is in office in Fed, State, or Local. Think about the recent KTA/KDOT merger... it was done to pull money in to state coffers, no matter what "safeguards" were put in place. The KTA is basically a state road in toto now. If they need more cash, they'll look to speeding tickets. And with cameras at toll plazas, and very accurate computing software, it will be quite admissable if a ticket case went to court.

The only thing I hope is that if they begin to do this, the media picks up on it, and we know that it has begun.

ICTRds

[Scott5114]

The thing is, though, using transponders saves the toll authority money. For every car that uses Pikepass, OTA saves money by not having to have a tollbooth attendant there, they don't have to print a receipt, they don't have to collect or disburse change, etc. etc. The overhead is much lower. That's why most toll agencies have an incentive to get a transponder in the form of giving discounts to transponder users.

When a ticket is written, who does that money go to? Not the toll authority, in any case that I'm aware of. Where exactly It goes depends on local laws but it's usually some combination of the state's general expenditures fund or to municipal and county governments. (Look at whose courthouse you're paying the money to, next ticket you have to pay.) Toll agencies are often by law dependent solely upon toll revenue for their income, and many take a point of pride in it. (Just about every KTA publication I've seen has KTA going out of the way to bring this up.) People are less tolerant of tolls if they think the toll authority doesn't really need the money, so it's in the authority's interest to keep the public aware that they depend just on the toll revenue.

So how does it benefit the toll authority to use their data for writing tickets? Transponder enrollment goes down, so overhead goes up; people will assume rightly or wrongly that the toll authority is getting a cut of the profit, so people start rattling their sabers over the tolls. And then revenue might go down as the road gets a reputation as a speed trap. Does that sound like a situation anyone would want to be in? So toll authorities only share transponder information when compelled to by a subpoena (which nobody will go through the trouble to get just to issue a traffic ticket).

Food for thought: the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?

[bugo]

the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?

Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes.  It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.

[Scott5114]

the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?

Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes.  It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.

I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was why the Cherokee was built.

[kphoger]

I do think it's dumb that the turnpikes have higher speed limits when I-35, for example is built much safer than the Cimarron Turnpike.

Nonexistant left shoulders plus narrow grassy hump for a median should not equal higher speed limit.

[Scott5114]

I do think it's dumb that the turnpikes have higher speed limits when I-35, for example is built much safer than the Cimarron Turnpike.

Nonexistant left shoulders plus narrow grassy hump for a median should not equal higher speed limit.

That's marketing, baby!

[bugo]

the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?

Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes.  It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.

I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was why the Cherokee was built.

I don't believe it would be.  The Oklahoma segment of the very curvy and mountainous Talimena Skyline Drive (OK 1) has a 65 MPH speed limit.

[Scott5114]

the Oklahoma turnpikes have a speed limit 5 MPH over that of the freeways in the state. Coincidence, or savvy marketing?

Without a doubt, it's a little perk to entice customers to take the turnpikes.  It's the reason that Alt US 412 is a 55 MPH highway.

I think that section of Alt US 412 would have been 55 even if the Cherokee was never built. It's pretty curvy. In fact, the dangerousness of that section of OK-33 was why the Cherokee was built.

I don't believe it would be.  The Oklahoma segment of the very curvy and mountainous Talimena Skyline Drive (OK 1) has a 65 MPH speed limit.

OK-1 doesn't have many driveways and houses along it, though.

[bugo]

Why is the nice modern section of OK 82 signed at 55 while the old crooked section is 65?  Why is I-44 60 MPH through Tulsa while I-244, the BA, and US 75 are 65 except through downtown?  Why is the Poteau bypass 55 while US 59 and OK 112 at each end of the bypass, both two lane highways, are 65?  Okie has some fucked up speed limits.

[kphoger]

1. Why is the nice modern section of OK 82 signed at 55 while the old crooked section is 65?
2. Why is I-44 60 MPH through Tulsa while I-244, the BA, and US 75 are 65 except through downtown?
3. Why is the Poteau bypass 55 while US 59 and OK 112 at each end of the bypass, both two lane highways, are 65?

1. Because Georgia.
2. Because Alanbengoatse.
3. Because $$$.

[leroys73]

And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south.  The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing.  They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.

[Sykotyk]

And Texas has 85mph on the toll road around Austin south.  The toll authority has all but said the reason was for marketing.  They still are having trouble getting enough traffic on it.

And they're still trying desperately to get trucks to take it by charging the 2-axle rate. The biggest issue for most trucks is that since most of the road is transponder/by-mail only, most won't take it because of how their company would handle the bill.