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National Boards => General Highway Talk => Traffic Control => Topic started by: NJRoadfan on June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM

Title: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NJRoadfan on June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM
I'm down in NC at the moment and have been through a few intersections with these lights. It looks like it provides a similar traffic control pattern that "doghouse" style signals do, but for dedicated protected left turn lanes. I haven't seen any in NJ yet even thought they are apparently installed there somewhere, I guess I should look for the accident debris. Anyone else see these signals pop up in their neighborhood?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 17, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
No, IDiOT does not use the flashing yellow arrow.  I wish they would.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: hm insulators on June 17, 2010, 11:05:15 AM
Haven't seen it in Arizona.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on June 17, 2010, 11:28:09 AM
Michigan's had them for about five years now. MDOT's first install of the FYA was near the end of 2006 at Lansing and Canal roads near the State Secondary Complex (http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9620_11057-157887--,00.html), but Oakland and Macomb counties had started using them before that. They've been appearing as signals have undergone routine replacement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on June 17, 2010, 11:42:35 AM
In VA US 60 (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/hampton_roads/2010/vdot_implements_new_flashing46996.asp) has a few in the area around Busch Gardens
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: OracleUsr on June 17, 2010, 12:47:02 PM
I live and work in NC, and there's one of these newfangled signals at the road for my workplace.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 17, 2010, 01:48:54 PM
Quote from: rawmustard on June 17, 2010, 11:28:09 AM
Michigan's had them for about five years now. MDOT's first install of the FYA was near the end of 2006 at Lansing and Canal roads near the State Secondary Complex (http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9620_11057-157887--,00.html), but Oakland and Macomb counties had started using them before that. They've been appearing as signals have undergone routine replacement.

MDOT's been replacing the flashing red balls for left turn signals with them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: xcellntbuy on June 17, 2010, 02:09:37 PM
This flashing yellow arrow was tried at two intersections in Coral Springs, FL and both have been removed.  The experiment was not well received.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 17, 2010, 02:43:07 PM
Minnesota only has one that I'm aware of, at MN 110/MN 149.

Virginia's not just limited to US 60.  There are also a few in Alexandria.

Haven't seen any in DC, but I know of at least two locations in DC that have a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on June 17, 2010, 04:03:02 PM
I saw (and photographed, though you can't tell) a few on the Outer Banks in NC last summer, but that's all I've seen. I guess when I go to Busch Gardens I should get off the I-64 connected more often!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 17, 2010, 05:00:24 PM
Nevada has two installations in Carson City. These are located on Fairview Drive (Temporary US 395/US 50) and have been there since at least September 2009 when I saw them.  As far as I'm aware, there are currently no other FYA installations in Nevada--but NDOT has a webpage that indicates more jurisdictions in the state will be implementing FYA in the future.

EDIT: There's actually at least three installations in Carson City. Another one is at William Street (SR 530/former US 50) and Stewart Street (SR 520), which I just saw for the first time this morning (6/22). Unlike the other installations, this one only has FYAs on the William Street approaches--interesting because this signal is sandwiched between two other signals on William Street that use 5-section doghouses for the PPLT.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bickendan on June 17, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
Oregon has at least one intersection with them -- NE Sandy Blvd at NE 28th Ave in Portland.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: golden eagle on June 17, 2010, 08:22:26 PM
Not one that I know of in Mississippi.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 18, 2010, 01:14:52 AM
Never seen any in Oklahoma. Norman, in particular, loves its doghouse signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mightyace on June 18, 2010, 02:56:14 AM
None that I know of in Tennessee.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on June 18, 2010, 11:26:15 AM
I get the feeling it'll be a while before they show up here in Ohio.  In fact, ODOT still doesn't want to acknowledge the requirement for red arrows.  They installed new signals on US-52 east of Cincinnati back in April, and the protected left still uses a red ball and "Left Turn Signal" / "Left on Green Arrow Only" signs.  It's not even LED either! 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 18, 2010, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 17, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
Oregon has at least one intersection with them -- NE Sandy Blvd at NE 28th Ave in Portland.

Oregon should have a lot of FYA's. They were one of the first states to do widespread implementation under the FHWA's experimentation process and subsequent interim approval of FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Duke87 on June 18, 2010, 07:24:47 PM
Connecticut doesn't even use red left turn arrows, let alone flashing yellow ones. :-/ Our protected-only left turn signals go green arrow, yellow arrow... red ball. Yeah.

I can only think of one place in the state that I've ever seen red left turn arrows, and it's a municipal job (Dock Street here in Stamford).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 18, 2010, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 17, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
No, IDiOT does not use the flashing yellow arrow.  I wish they would.

There may be one or two appearing somewhat soon as an experiment, I think in the Peoria area (overheard this from university staff not too long ago).

There's many new ones popping up in Missouri.  Locations I can think of are on US 50 in California (the Missouri town, not the state), MO 340 a short distance west of I-270, and I think some were supposed to pop up in St. Charles County and on US 67 in northern St. Louis County.

Kentucky had a bunch on US 60 heading into Frankfort from Exit 58 on I-64.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: FreewayDan on June 19, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: hm insulators on June 17, 2010, 11:05:15 AM
Haven't seen it in Arizona.

Scottsdale has been using the flashing yellow arrow signals for a while now.
http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/traffic/yellowarrows.asp

In Texas, the only place I know that uses flashing yellow arrows is in Richardson:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-yellowlight_08met.ART0.State.Edition1.4be3cd5.html

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on June 22, 2010, 11:33:52 AM
There are 8 intersections in Lawrence that use the flashing yellow arrow.

The first installation, at 19th and Louisiana, was activated in October of 2008. Traffic on Louisiana has a flashing yellow arrow. Traffic on 19th had a protected-only signal which, interestingly enough, uses a circular red instead of a red arrow.

Next up were 33rd and Iowa, 34th and Iowa, and 31st and a unnamed access road. On the latter, it replaced a previous protected-only signal. 6th and Congressional was turned up as a FYA intersection, then 6th and Stoneridge was changed from protected-only to FYA, followed by a a similar change at 9th and Iowa.

The newest intersection, N. 2nd and Locust, was part of a ARRA reconstruction project that added a turn lane on N. 2nd. IIRC, the plans for this intersection origionally called for a "doghouse" signal for the new left turn lanes. In fact, "Left Turn Yield on Green" signs were placed, but were removed before the new left-turn signals were placed in operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 22, 2010, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on June 18, 2010, 11:20:05 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 17, 2010, 11:00:19 AM
No, IDiOT does not use the flashing yellow arrow.  I wish they would.

There may be one or two appearing somewhat soon as an experiment, I think in the Peoria area (overheard this from university staff not too long ago).

We'll see if and when it finally reaches IDOT District 1.  District 1 (McHenry, Lake, Kane, DuPage, Cook, & Will Counties) tends to go its own way in the state and has differing standards to the downstate districts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: njroadhorse on June 22, 2010, 02:17:14 PM
I don't think New Jersey has these yet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PAHighways on June 22, 2010, 02:19:22 PM
I haven't found nor heard of any.

It would probably just lead to more problems, and I'm sure I would get a flood of complaints.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 22, 2010, 02:45:02 PM
Yeah... PA doesn't seem to be a state to jump on the latest "bandwagon"s (so to speak)

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 22, 2010, 02:58:41 PM
QuoteYeah... PA doesn't seem to be a state to jump on the latest "bandwagon"s (so to speak)

Ahem...Clearview ring a bell?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 22, 2010, 03:06:48 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2010, 02:58:41 PM

Ahem...Clearview ring a bell?


didn't PA sponsor the research that led to its invention?  If so, does building and driving a bandwagon count as jumping on one?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 22, 2010, 04:11:04 PM
^ I believe much of the initial Clearview research was based in PA, yes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 22, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
It was a joint venture between some PA group and the Texas Transportation Institute. Which explains TX's infatuation with the stuff.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 22, 2010, 06:27:19 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 22, 2010, 05:56:21 PM
It was a joint venture between some PA group and the Texas Transportation Institute. Which explains TX's infatuation with the stuff.

other than apparently being an early adopter of Clearview, Texas has been a religious bandwagon-jumper since 1969, when they stopped using Texas/US cutouts and the arrow-in-shield style intersection gantries.  Texas used to have such innovative and good-looking signage, but now they are formulaic and boring.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/img/TX/TX19480831i1.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: florida on June 22, 2010, 07:10:15 PM
Quote from: xcellntbuy on June 17, 2010, 02:09:37 PM
This flashing yellow arrow was tried at two intersections in Coral Springs, FL and both have been removed.  The experiment was not well received.

Ha. Hope they weren't on the larger arterials (University and Sample).

Definitely have not had any up here (thankfully).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on June 22, 2010, 07:29:45 PM
I saw one (count 'em ONE) in Missouri. Fort Smith, AR has a couple dozen, Little Rock has maybe 2 or 3
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: hbelkins on June 22, 2010, 11:36:32 PM
As previously mentioned, they are popping up in Kentucky. Frankfort does use them and they are also on Man O'War Blvd. in Lexington.

Not sure that I like them, or the fact that money is expended to replace existing doghouses with these.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 23, 2010, 03:21:31 AM
^ I wouldn't necessarily be in favor of spending money on FYAs just for the sake of doing it, when a 5-section head can still be used as long as the signal isn't modified considerably.

All of the three installations in Carson City, NV appear to have come after nearby road widening work, which resulted in all signal poles being replaced anyway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PAHighways on June 23, 2010, 01:38:17 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 22, 2010, 02:58:41 PM
QuoteYeah... PA doesn't seem to be a state to jump on the latest "bandwagon"s (so to speak)

Ahem...Clearview ring a bell?

Clearview was jointly developed by the Pennsylvania Transportation Institute and the Texas Transportation Institute.  Although while being part of its creation, and an initial roll out of Clearview signage, its usage stagnated in the mid-2000s but began to rebound recently.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 24, 2010, 06:08:31 PM
Article today noting more flashing yellow arrows coming to Missouri (in O' Fallon), and the first red arrows installed by MoDOT:
http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=204943&catid=3#comments (http://www.ksdk.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=204943&catid=3#comments)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 25, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
QuoteIn VA US 60 has a few in the area around Busch Gardens

Here's the VDOT news release (http://www.virginiadot.org/newsroom/hampton_roads/2010/vdot_implements_new_flashing46996.asp) on the new flashing yellow arrows near Busch Gardens.

Interestingly, the image they show in the release has a red arrow.  I'm curious as to the actual installations VDOT did have red arrows, or if they have the standard VDOT red ball.  AFAIK, there is only one VDOT-installed red left arrow in the state...at VA 208/SR 639 in Stafford County (Fredericksburg suburbia).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: D-Dey65 on June 25, 2010, 12:27:33 PM
So far, North Carolina was the only state I've seen them in. I saw them as meaning the same thing as a steady yellow left turn signal.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 25, 2010, 12:34:27 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on June 25, 2010, 12:27:33 PM
steady yellow left turn signal.


what does this mean?  If I see one, I assume it will turn into a red left turn signal in a few seconds.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 25, 2010, 12:43:45 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 25, 2010, 09:16:16 AM
Interestingly, the image they show in the release has a red arrow.  I'm curious as to the actual installations VDOT did have red arrows, or if they have the standard VDOT red ball.  AFAIK, there is only one VDOT-installed red left arrow in the state...at VA 208/SR 639 in Stafford County (Fredericksburg suburbia).

One of the requirements of the FYA signal during its experimentation phase was to use an all-arrow display. This carried over into the standard implementation.

With red arrows having been introduced more than 35 years ago and many drivers being familiar with their meaning, there is no reason to use a circular red in a new left turn signal. In fact, the recent MUTCD revision actually deleted this option (along with the "Left turn signal" sign required when a circular red is used).

Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 25, 2010, 12:34:27 PM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on June 25, 2010, 12:27:33 PM
steady yellow left turn signal.
what does this mean?  If I see one, I assume it will turn into a red left turn signal in a few seconds.

"Steady" is generally used to describe the display state of a standard signal indication, as opposed to "flashing". In the context of FYA signals, the steady yellow arrow is the clearance interval that follows either the green arrow or flashing yellow arrow when the signal transitions to red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on June 26, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
Quote from: roadfro on June 18, 2010, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 17, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
Oregon has at least one intersection with them -- NE Sandy Blvd at NE 28th Ave in Portland.

Oregon should have a lot of FYA's. They were one of the first states to do widespread implementation under the FHWA's experimentation process and subsequent interim approval of FYA.

They're all over Beaverton.  After 4 or 5 years of waiting, they finally put one at the intersection where I turn into my apartment community a couple of weeks ago.  It greatly reduces the time I have to sit at that signal to turn left.  They were using a 4 lamp signal for a while but are currently using a 3 lamp signal with the steady green and the flashing yellow arrows in the bottom position.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jdb1234 on June 26, 2010, 01:14:21 AM
If there are any FYA's in Alabama, I certainly have not seen them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 26, 2010, 09:48:03 PM
Haven't seen any on New York's Long Island yet, but I'm watching for the first ones.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kj3400 on June 26, 2010, 10:17:37 PM
I'm pretty sure I haven't seen any in central Maryland, but I can't vouch for the outlying areas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on June 26, 2010, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2010, 12:43:45 PM
One of the requirements of the FYA signal during its experimentation phase was to use an all-arrow display. This carried over into the standard implementation.
There was an option that allowed jurisdictions that didn't use red arrows to use circular reds during the interim approval (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia_10_flashyellarrow.htm) (noted in Sec. 2, Para. b of the conditions).

Quote from: andytom on June 26, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
They're all over Beaverton.  After 4 or 5 years of waiting, they finally put one at the intersection where I turn into my apartment community a couple of weeks ago.  It greatly reduces the time I have to sit at that signal to turn left.  They were using a 4 lamp signal for a while but are currently using a 3 lamp signal with the steady green and the flashing yellow arrows in the bottom position.

There shouldn't be a reason to reduce to a three-section display unless physical conditions require it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cu2010 on June 26, 2010, 10:48:34 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 26, 2010, 09:48:03 PM
Haven't seen any on New York's Long Island yet, but I'm watching for the first ones.

I haven't seen them upstate yet, either...but knowing how far behind the times NYSDOT tends to be at times (not to mention the lack of money in NY!), I don't expect to see them anytime soon, either.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 27, 2010, 05:20:23 PM
I'm betting New York takes the easy way out by using a doghouse (or side-by-side) over the lane-line between the left-turn lane and the left-thru lane. That is still permitted by the new MUTCD in lieu of a separate left-turn head with flashing yellow arrow. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 28, 2010, 03:29:31 AM
Quote from: rawmustard on June 26, 2010, 10:27:15 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2010, 12:43:45 PM
One of the requirements of the FYA signal during its experimentation phase was to use an all-arrow display. This carried over into the standard implementation.
There was an option that allowed jurisdictions that didn't use red arrows to use circular reds during the interim approval (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia_10_flashyellarrow.htm) (noted in Sec. 2, Para. b of the conditions).

Hmmm, must've missed that. I was under the impression circular reds weren't allowed with FYAs during interim approval.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 28, 2010, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 27, 2010, 05:20:23 PM
I'm betting New York takes the easy way out by using a doghouse (or side-by-side) over the lane-line between the left-turn lane and the left-thru lane. That is still permitted by the new MUTCD in lieu of a separate left-turn head with flashing yellow arrow. 
IMO the doghouse style is superior to using a dedicated signal.  Why use a separate signal with a flashing yellow when the doghouse style is sufficient?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 28, 2010, 04:12:36 PM
Probably because tests have shown the doghouse-style *ISN'T* sufficient, especially with older drivers.  If it was sufficient, the FYA wouldn't have come about to begin with.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 28, 2010, 04:36:27 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 04:12:36 PM
Probably because tests have shown the doghouse-style *ISN'T* sufficient, especially with older drivers.  If it was sufficient, the FYA wouldn't have come about to begin with.

I always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 28, 2010, 05:41:13 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 04:12:36 PM
Probably because tests have shown the doghouse-style *ISN'T* sufficient, especially with older drivers.

And it's probably those same older drivers who sit at a green light and don't move until the light turns yellow (going straight across the intersection, not turning), or go 35 mph on the interstate that has a minimum speed of 40 mph.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on June 28, 2010, 06:16:12 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 18, 2010, 01:35:41 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on June 17, 2010, 06:52:27 PM
Oregon has at least one intersection with them -- NE Sandy Blvd at NE 28th Ave in Portland.

Oregon should have a lot of FYA's. They were one of the first states to do widespread implementation under the FHWA's experimentation process and subsequent interim approval of FYA.

I found this on ODOT's site awhile ago . . . a list of all FYAs in Oregon (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/TRAFFIC-ROADWAY/docs/pdf/FYA_Locations.pdf), as of 11/30/2009, showing the dates of installation.  Counted 187 of them.  There's actually been at least a couple more since then, as the ones at the OR-569 interchange with Coburg Road in Eugene.  The first one was apparently installed at Table Rock Road and Vilas Road in Jackson County in May 2001.

Also, ODOT has mandated using FYAs on all state highway installations as per the most recent Traffic Signal Policy and Guidelines (http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/TRAFFIC-ROADWAY/docs/pdf/Traffic_Signal_Policy_and_Guidelines.pdf?ga=t) document and generally discouraged their usage elsewhere.

-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 28, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
QuoteI always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.

Replacing the flashing red ball (or in Delaware and Maryland the flashing red arrow) is an ancillary effect.  But the primary reason for the FYA's development and purpose is because too many drivers were confusing the steady green (i.e. the permitted left) on the tower or the doghouse signals for a protected left.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 28, 2010, 09:38:48 PM
Guys, you really need to read the new MUTCD standards carefully on this subject. They have made it very complicated, but let me give you the short version. The problem they are addressing is that some drivers when viewing a green ball directly above the left-turn lane, would think that it was a right-of-way signal for that lane, the same as a green arrow. So they've mandated that a separate left-turn signal directly above the L/T lane can't have a green-ball anymore; it must display a steady green-arrow or flashing yellow-arrow, if it's directly above the L/T lane. However, as I cited in my previous post, if a supplemental left-turn head is not used over that lane, then a doghouse may still be used directly above the lane-line separating the left-turn and left-thru lanes.
I myself, had to read the Manual several times to understand the new rules. Also, the new standard only applies to new and rebuilt installations. There is no requirement to change existing signals. So watch what they do in your locale when installing new signals or rebuilding old ones.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 08:30:14 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
QuoteI always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.

Replacing the flashing red ball (or in Delaware and Maryland the flashing red arrow) is an ancillary effect.  But the primary reason for the FYA's development and purpose is because too many drivers were confusing the steady green (i.e. the permitted left) on the tower or the doghouse signals for a protected left.


That is stupid.  The towers work just fine and don't seem to have the same problems, IMHO.  A green ball is already well known while taking any sort of drivers ed that it is for the permissive phase of all turns and straight, not the protected phase.  The fools who think a green ball is protected aren't going to suddenly think a flashing yellow arrow means anything different.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 29, 2010, 12:14:12 PM
FHWA thinks otherwise (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia_10_flashyellarrow.htm)...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 29, 2010, 12:18:17 PM
This is why other states should follow NY's lead and not use separate signals for left turn lanes unless absolutely necessary.  Most of the time there's no reason for one.  If all the lanes have the same signal except for arrows, it's a lot less confusing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
Froggie, it says that "some engineers have had concerns that drivers turning left on a permissive circular green signal indication might inadvertently mistake that indication as implying the left turn has the right of way".  This means that some, not all, not many, but some think people get this mixed up.  I sincerely doubt many drivers mistake a green ball for a green arrow in states where green arrows are typically used with green balls for protected and permissive stages.  I would guess that the mistakes are mostly made by people who come from states with separate signal housings into states with tower or doghouse assemblies.  This is a drivers ed issue, not an engineering one IMHO.  If people are too stupid to understand the difference between a green ball and a green arrow, then they won't understand a FYA either as that will require education in states that use tower or doghouse assemblies.  We've used tower assemblies here in Illinois since the 1960s (from the signals I've seen) with great success.  I sincerely doubt IDOT (much less the municipalities) will change and start using the FYA.  They don't even use doghouse assemblies here (which I can see getting mixed up easier as the green ball and green arrow are next to each other).

Deanej, I agree.  In addition, I would suggest more use of permissive phase left turns and getting rid of protected phase only left turn signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
Reading through the actual study, it appears to be somewhat flawed.
http://wwwcf.fhwa.dot.gov/exit.cfm?link=http://trb.org/publications/nchrp/nchrp_rpt_493.pdf

The study areas were in Washington, Oregon, Michigan, Texas (2), California, Florida, and Delaware.  Of these, they break down the signal types as follows:

Michigan: 3 display signal, spearate left turn signal (flashing red ball).
Washington: 4 display signal, spearate left turn signal (flashing yellow ball).
Oregon and Florida: doghouse cluster of signals.
California: 3 signal display, separate left turn signal (flashing red arrow).
Delaware: 4 signal display, separate left turn signal (flashing red arrow).
Texas: 5 signal display horizontal.  One cluster was studied (see FL & OR) and only one tower was studied in a state that typically uses the horizontal arrangement.

In none of these was a tower studied in a state that typically uses towers (such as Illinois).  And other comprehension techniques were never looked at from what I can see.  Downstate, a lot of signals have a supplimentary sign stating "Left Turn Yield on {green ball}".  That seems to have never been looked at.

Judging from the implementation sites listed later, it seems as though the doghouse cluster of signals provides the most confusion and hesitation as to the meaning of the signals.  The tower signal in Tuscon, AZ had no hesitation nor confusion, but the doghouses in other areas did.  Looking at this data, I'd say that the doghouse style of signals has a big flaw, not the protected/permissive phasing of the ball and arrow.  I can see how confusion would happen when the ball and the arrow are directly next to each other.

There also seems to be a problem with the yellow trap created when opposing signals are phased differently.  The solution, IMHO, would be to eliminate the phasing creating it.  When opposing traffic has a green (while the subject traffic has a red) the left turns should not be permitted.

Personally, from the study, I would also suggest eliminating the doghouse signal from the MUTCD and using the tower exlusively.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on June 29, 2010, 02:50:48 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
... it says that "some engineers have had concerns that drivers turning left on a permissive circular green signal indication might inadvertently mistake that indication as implying the left turn has the right of way".  This means that some, not all, not many, but some think people get this mixed up.

Does this look confusing to you?
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4047%2F4292968965_412a54c2e5.jpg&hash=da48060cf85233bb4905de32c2bc7afb022a60ff)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 29, 2010, 03:08:05 PM
Confusing and very much in error.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 29, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
Not an error. That's "Dallas Phasing", which we have discussed before on this board.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 06:05:17 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 29, 2010, 03:56:45 PM
Not an error. That's "Dallas Phasing", which we have discussed before on this board.

To me, Dallas Phasing looks strange.  We don't use it here in Illinois.  Here, the ball would be red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 29, 2010, 08:30:24 PM
I'm not familiar with "Dallas Phasing" but I would be confused by that display in the picture. I had to look at it closely to confirm the left-turn signal was displaying a green-ball while the "thru" signals were red. I could easily see the mistake being made here that FHWA is talking about.  Under what circumstances would a green ball be appropriate for left turn but not thru lanes?

But even besides that example, in some cases the issue exists when just a 3rd standard R-Y-G ball head is used over the left-turn lane in addition to the usual 2 required heads. Brandon is correct that all drivers should know that you have to yield on a green-ball, but apparently there is confusion among some drivers when the signal-head is directly above the L/T lane. I don't understand it either, bit I think FHWA is right to try to address the issue in a way that works for the ignorant public to reduce accidents.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 30, 2010, 07:38:14 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 29, 2010, 08:30:24 PM
I'm not familiar with "Dallas Phasing" but I would be confused by that display in the picture. I had to look at it closely to confirm the left-turn signal was displaying a green-ball while the "thru" signals were red. I could easily see the mistake being made here that FHWA is talking about.  Under what circumstances would a green ball be appropriate for left turn but not thru lanes?

They show an unprotected left with red through lanes when opposing traffic has a protected left and green through lanes. This phasing was designed to eliminate the yellow-trap. I'm not sure about the setup in this picture, but in Dallas, the green signal is shielded so only the turn lane can see it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on June 30, 2010, 07:44:25 AM
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2010, 07:38:14 AM

They show an unprotected left with red through lanes when opposing traffic has a protected left and green through lanes. This phasing was designed to eliminate the yellow-trap. I'm not sure about the setup in this picture, but in Dallas, the green signal is shielded so only the turn lane can see it.

The green is NOT shaded here (or wasn't when the photo was taken). It may simply be inattentiveness, but the blue Honda hit the white car a couple seconds later and drove away.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2010, 10:23:53 AM
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2010, 07:38:14 AM
yellow-trap.

what is this?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 30, 2010, 10:49:08 AM
This (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part4.htm#q16).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on June 30, 2010, 10:53:04 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 30, 2010, 10:49:08 AM
This (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part4.htm#q16).


IMHO, it should be completely prohibited, and the whole signal issue just fades away.  Minimal cost and effort.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2010, 11:54:45 AM
heh.  Whenever I see the light turn yellow, I assume the cars in the opposite direction also get yellow, and therefore are liable to floor it to beat the red.  

The only time I assume cars are slowing down is when I visibly see them slow down.  This gives me enough time to enter the intersection on yellow, and then I exit the intersection on red (which is perfectly legal - and just about the only possible way to make a left turn in Los Angeles, and various other places).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 30, 2010, 01:30:24 PM
It depends on where you are. In Indiana (and other midwestern states), often several cars will enter while the light is green and turn when it turns yellow, but people almost always stop on yellow there. I learned quickly to break that habit when I moved to Florida since so many people run late yellow/early red lights. I'll sit at the line and wait for the protected left next cycle if I have to.

Of course, now whenever I visit family back in Indiana, I'll sometimes get honked at for not moving into the intersection!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2010, 01:33:04 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2010, 01:30:24 PM
It depends on where you are. In Indiana (and other midwestern states), often several cars will enter while the light is green and turn when it turns yellow, but people almost always stop on yellow there. I learned quickly to break that habit when I moved to Florida since so many people run late yellow/early red lights. I'll sit at the line and wait for the protected left next cycle if I have to.

Of course, now whenever I visit family back in Indiana, I'll sometimes get honked at for not moving into the intersection!

yes, in the case of there being a wide median, I can move into it on the green, while still allowing opposing traffic to pass through the intersection at full speed.  However, on a typical LA city street, there is not enough room to do that - I can barely creep into the intersection, just enough to display my intent, but to actually start to make the turn would cut off the innermost lane of opposing traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Phudman on July 01, 2010, 11:59:20 PM
They have been popping up in Tyler, TX for the past year.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on July 03, 2010, 12:37:23 AM
Quote from: andytom on June 26, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
They're all over Beaverton.  After 4 or 5 years of waiting, they finally put one at the intersection where I turn into my apartment community a couple of weeks ago.  It greatly reduces the time I have to sit at that signal to turn left.  They were using a 4 lamp signal for a while but are currently using a 3 lamp signal with the steady green and the flashing yellow arrows in the bottom position.

There shouldn't be a reason to reduce to a three-section display unless physical conditions require it.
[/quote]

With every level of government below federal scrimping for money anywhere they can find it?  Sounds like a good enough reason.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 03, 2010, 04:45:38 PM
Hmmm... this topic got quite a bit of reply while I was without internet during my move.  Some replies...

Quote from: Brandon on June 28, 2010, 04:36:27 PM
I always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.

That is correct. The FYA was developed to standardize the many differing types of displays that had been developed for displaying a permissive left turn in a separate face--flashing circular red, flashing red arrow, flashing yellow arrow, flashing circular yellow--where a MUTCD 5-section face was not used. In addition, the concern of having a circular green over a left turn lane, whether a PPLT display or permissive only LT, also fueled the research.

Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 08:30:14 AM
The towers work just fine and don't seem to have the same problems, IMHO.  A green ball is already well known while taking any sort of drivers ed that it is for the permissive phase of all turns and straight, not the protected phase.  The fools who think a green ball is protected aren't going to suddenly think a flashing yellow arrow means anything different.

Another contributing factor to the FYA research is the fact that the 5-section heads are not entirely clear. Despite the fact that driver's ed teaches you to treat the circular green as a yield in a permissive left turn situation, many drivers confuse its meaning under the assumption that "green means go". Such drivers don't necessarily automatically assume they have a protected turn, but that impulse to go on display of a green signal is problematic when the turn isn't protected. With a flashing yellow arrow, the message doesn't automatically equate to "go", but more of a "caution", which is a necessary reaction in a permissive left turn situation.

Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
...  I sincerely doubt many drivers mistake a green ball for a green arrow in states where green arrows are typically used with green balls for protected and permissive stages.  I would guess that the mistakes are mostly made by people who come from states with separate signal housings into states with tower or doghouse assemblies.  This is a drivers ed issue, not an engineering one IMHO.  If people are too stupid to understand the difference between a green ball and a green arrow, then they won't understand a FYA either as that will require education in states that use tower or doghouse assemblies.  ...

Deanej, I agree.  In addition, I would suggest more use of permissive phase left turns and getting rid of protected phase only left turn signals.

In Nevada, arrow signals have been used for years to indicate protected left turns. 5-section clusters are in widespread use for PPLT operations, usually with the doghouse being a separate signal face for the left turn lane and an adjacent R10-12 ("Left Turn Yield on Green") sign. In my own experience, I've seen many a driver (even those with Nevada plates on the car) begin to make the turn at the start of a circular green with the protected phase skipped. Meanwhile, Carson City has installed at least three FYA signals with little public outreach, and there have been no problems with drivers adapting despite area drivers being used to doghouses.

The elimination of protected-only left turn signals in favor of more permissive signals just isn't a viable option in many areas. The problem with doing this especially comes in peak hour operations where left turning traffic will have a difficult time finding a gap in opposing traffic, creating excessive delays for the left turn operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 03, 2010, 05:13:17 PM
Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
There also seems to be a problem with the yellow trap created when opposing signals are phased differently.  The solution, IMHO, would be to eliminate the phasing creating it.  When opposing traffic has a green (while the subject traffic has a red) the left turns should not be permitted.

The yellow trap comes from lead/lag left turn operations using 5-section PPLT displays. Running lead/lag left turns is highly beneficial for signal timing where corridor progression is desired. In a standard 5-section display, the yellow trap is created for the side that has a leading left turn--when the adjacent through turns yellow, left turning drivers trying to make a permitted left may think the opposing through vehicles are also getting a yellow, when in reality the opposing through and left phases are active.

Allowing the left turn vehicles to continue to make permitted left turns while the adjacent through vehicles have a red light increases capacity for the turning traffic, and there's no reason why it can't be done. This is the whole reason Dallas Phasing was developed. With Dallas Phasing, a separate 5-section head must be used for the left turn lane, and the circular sections of that head must be shielded, louvered, or otherwise visibility limited from the through traffic and a R10-21 ("Left turn signal / Yield on Green") sign should be used.

At first, implementing Dallas Phasing required special signal controller modifications to get the circular indications in the 5-section display to overlap with the opposing through indications instead of adjacent through. The flashing yellow arrow works on the same principle, but now most new signal controllers have the display logic built-in so it's much easier to implement.

For a visual of all this, seemy video explanation of PPLT with lead/lag operations (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPKjcPI5Sko) on YouTube.

Quote from: andytom on July 03, 2010, 12:37:23 AM
Quote from: andytom on June 26, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
They're all over Beaverton.  After 4 or 5 years of waiting, they finally put one at the intersection where I turn into my apartment community a couple of weeks ago.  It greatly reduces the time I have to sit at that signal to turn left.  They were using a 4 lamp signal for a while but are currently using a 3 lamp signal with the steady green and the flashing yellow arrows in the bottom position.

There shouldn't be a reason to reduce to a three-section display unless physical conditions require it.

With every level of government below federal scrimping for money anywhere they can find it?  Sounds like a good enough reason.

--Andy
[/quote]

In most cases, you would want to use the 4-section FYA signal. The visual 'jump' of the arrow going to a different section of the display provides a better cue that the signal has changed between permitted and protected. I can't imagine that using a bi-modal arrow in a three-section display would be that much less expensive than the four-section standard display anyway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 03, 2010, 05:13:17 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 03, 2010, 12:37:23 AM
Quote
Quote from: andytom on June 26, 2010, 01:05:07 AM
They're all over Beaverton.  After 4 or 5 years of waiting, they finally put one at the intersection where I turn into my apartment community a couple of weeks ago.  It greatly reduces the time I have to sit at that signal to turn left.  They were using a 4 lamp signal for a while but are currently using a 3 lamp signal with the steady green and the flashing yellow arrows in the bottom position.

There shouldn't be a reason to reduce to a three-section display unless physical conditions require it.

With every level of government below federal scrimping for money anywhere they can find it?  Sounds like a good enough reason.

--Andy

In most cases, you would want to use the 4-section FYA signal. The visual 'jump' of the arrow going to a different section of the display provides a better cue that the signal has changed between permitted and protected. I can't imagine that using a bi-modal arrow in a three-section display would be that much less expensive than the four-section standard display anyway.

There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on July 04, 2010, 12:10:31 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM
There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.

But there would be a direct transition from flashing yellow to green if a lagging left were used. I don't think there's really a big a deal making that transition, but as the MUTCD says, why reduce from a four-section face if there's plenty of room for it, especially if it was already there?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 04, 2010, 02:37:57 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM
There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.

Which is why I said "from permitted to protected". In the case of a lagging protected turn at a 3-section FYA face, the bi-modal arrow in the bottom (right) section of the signal head would change directly from flashing yellow to steady green. When sitting at an intersection waiting for a gap, the "jump" of the arrow to the next signal head section provides better emphasis.

What's interesting is the display of indications when going from a leading protected left turn to permitted lefts. If I understand correctly, Oregon requires a sequence of: green > steady yellow > red > flashing yellow. The MUTCD allows the omission of the red arrow in this transition--I know this is the what Carson City does. In contradistinction, when going from permitted left to protected left, the MUTCD says the signal should go directly from flashing yellow to green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on July 04, 2010, 02:48:08 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM

There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.


I've seen it a 3 ways here:

Leading Green:

Green Arrow-> Yellow Arrow-> FYA

GA->YA->Red Arrow-> FYA

Lagging Green:

FYA->GA->YA->RA
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on July 05, 2010, 01:16:27 PM
Quote from: rawmustard on July 04, 2010, 12:10:31 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM
There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.

But there would be a direct transition from flashing yellow to green if a lagging left were used. I don't think there's really a big a deal making that transition, but as the MUTCD says, why reduce from a four-section face if there's plenty of room for it, especially if it was already there?

Only the new installations are going in as 3 lamp assemblies (switching out the lower, green arrow lamp with a combo, green-flashing yellow arrow lamp).  The older installations are staying 4 lamp assemblies.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 05, 2010, 09:53:07 PM
Checked out the FYAs on US-60 at Busch Gardens today. All 3 of them (I thought there were supposed to be four, but there were only three) were 4-lamp signals that went green -> FYA -> yellow arrow -> red then back to FYA. I recorded a video of them that I plan to post on youtube at some point, once it's been edited.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 06, 2010, 03:19:47 AM
DTP, you sure you didn't get your sequence mixed up there? According to the MUTCD, a green arrow must always be followed by a steady yellow arrow before transitioning to flashing yellow arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 06, 2010, 02:31:34 PM
Let me check my video here in a bit and I'll double-check. Forgot to copy it off my camera last night and the camera battery is dead now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 07, 2010, 06:05:16 PM
Update for Nevada:

The city of Henderson now has at least one FYA signal operating at Pacific Avenue & Van Wagenen Street. This is the first FYA installation in the Las Vegas valley. According to a couple news articles, they plan to install FYAs at 80 intersections in Henderson at a cost of $263,000. The article hints that FYAs may be installed throughout the Las Vegas Valley beginning later this year.

It sounds to me like Henderson is doing a full-scale replacement of current 5-section doghouses to FYA, with other entities in the Vegas area following suit. Since it's not required to replace existing PPLT displays, I think it's interesting that they're taking such an aggressive stance towards switching these out. So it appears that the Vegas area will have to adapt quickly to FYAs...hopefully it will be an easy transition.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on July 08, 2010, 06:31:45 PM
While heading to Maine yesterday, saw a FYA at the western junction of NH 107 with US 4/US 202/NH 9.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ian on July 08, 2010, 08:36:59 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 08, 2010, 06:31:45 PM
While heading to Maine yesterday, saw a FYA at the western junction of NH 107 with US 4/US 202/NH 9.


Wow never thought they would come to New Hampshire that quickly. I'll have to head out there when I go to Lake Winnipesaukee in a week.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on July 10, 2010, 02:47:50 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 04, 2010, 02:37:57 PM
Quote from: andytom on July 04, 2010, 12:20:50 AM
There is no direct transition from green to flashing yellow in OR.  The signal must go through a steady yellow phase showing a reduction in right-of-way status, and, by law, steady yellow must be followed by steady red.  After that, the signal can go to flashing yellow.

Which is why I said "from permitted to protected". In the case of a lagging protected turn at a 3-section FYA face, the bi-modal arrow in the bottom (right) section of the signal head would change directly from flashing yellow to steady green. When sitting at an intersection waiting for a gap, the "jump" of the arrow to the next signal head section provides better emphasis.

The point is that, when in the left turn lane, you shouldn't be monitoring the condition of the signal continuously.  You should be monitoring the condition of oncoming traffic or the cars in front of you also turning left and checking the condition of the signal when it looks like you may be given a chance to move.  When the signal is in your peripheral vision, the falshing vs. non-flashing is much more apparent than the change in position.  That's why this works.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 10, 2010, 07:43:35 AM
^  You're right in that nobody should be monitoring the signal head constantly, but rather monitoring oncoming traffic for adequate gaps. If you're just keeping a casual eye on the signal while waiting for the gap in traffic, I'd think you'd be much more apt to notice the light change position and turn steady than just becoming steady alone--which is certainly why FHWA doesn't allow the flashing yellow and steady yellow arrows to be in the same section of the signal head.

Of course, this debate only really matters if the signal has lagging protected left turns following permitted left and a 3-section FYA display with bimodal arrow. Most jurisdictions don't use lagging lefts unless they're trying to achieve signal progression along a corridor, and most agencies will use 4-section heads, so it's likely this issue will ever be a major problem.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Indiana doesn't have it yet, because some legislators are afraid of it.

I have kept a running list of who has and who doesn't:

HAS:

AK AL AR AZ CA CO CT DC DE FL GA IA ID IL KS KY LA MD ME MI MN MO MS MT NC NH NJ NM NV NY OR SC TX UT VA VT WA WI WY Territories GU

HAS NOT:

HI IN MA ND NE OH OK PA RI SD TN WV Territories PR VI
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: deanej on June 28, 2010, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 27, 2010, 05:20:23 PM
I'm betting New York takes the easy way out by using a doghouse (or side-by-side) over the lane-line between the left-turn lane and the left-thru lane. That is still permitted by the new MUTCD in lieu of a separate left-turn head with flashing yellow arrow.  
IMO the doghouse style is superior to using a dedicated signal.  Why use a separate signal with a flashing yellow when the doghouse style is sufficient?

One community in NY is using them, even though the NY legislature has not yet put FYA into the traffic code.

The doghouse is not sufficient. It causes yellow trap if the signal skips phases.

Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
QuoteI always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.

Replacing the flashing red ball (or in Delaware and Maryland the flashing red arrow) is an ancillary effect.  But the primary reason for the FYA's development and purpose is because too many drivers were confusing the steady green (i.e. the permitted left) on the tower or the doghouse signals for a protected left.

Wrong. The purpose is to eliminate yellow trap without placing restrictions on signal phasing.

Quote from: realjd on June 30, 2010, 01:30:24 PM
It depends on where you are. In Indiana (and other midwestern states), often several cars will enter while the light is green and turn when it turns yellow, but people almost always stop on yellow there. I learned quickly to break that habit when I moved to Florida since so many people run late yellow/early red lights. I'll sit at the line and wait for the protected left next cycle if I have to.

Of course, now whenever I visit family back in Indiana, I'll sometimes get honked at for not moving into the intersection!

This behavior of waiting in the intersection, combined with the law requiring you to get out of the intersection by the time the red comes on, causes the danger in yellow trap.

The drivers either dart across live traffic that still has a green, or are trapped in the intersection on red.

[Combined multiple posts. -S.]
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:27:51 PM
This behavior of waiting in the intersection, combined with the law requiring you to get out of the intersection by the time the red comes on, causes the danger in yellow trap.

indeed.  that red-light law is completely senseless.  Needing to enter the intersection by red is a lot more reasonable, as it allows queues to empty as people behave reasonably, and do not attempt to dart around to try to beat the light.  Just a foot or two in, to announce your intention, and then on red (or on late yellow, when you've judged that opposite traffic will come to a stop) you complete the turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on July 29, 2010, 01:47:52 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 28, 2010, 09:39:50 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:27:51 PM
This behavior of waiting in the intersection, combined with the law requiring you to get out of the intersection by the time the red comes on, causes the danger in yellow trap.

indeed.  that red-light law is completely senseless.  Needing to enter the intersection by red is a lot more reasonable, as it allows queues to empty as people behave reasonably, and do not attempt to dart around to try to beat the light.  Just a foot or two in, to announce your intention, and then on red (or on late yellow, when you've judged that opposite traffic will come to a stop) you complete the turn.

The problem is that traffic laws are written by politicians, not experts.

Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
Froggie, it says that "some engineers have had concerns that drivers turning left on a permissive circular green signal indication might inadvertently mistake that indication as implying the left turn has the right of way".  This means that some, not all, not many, but some think people get this mixed up.  I sincerely doubt many drivers mistake a green ball for a green arrow in states where green arrows are typically used with green balls for protected and permissive stages.  I would guess that the mistakes are mostly made by people who come from states with separate signal housings into states with tower or doghouse assemblies.  This is a drivers ed issue, not an engineering one IMHO.  If people are too stupid to understand the difference between a green ball and a green arrow, then they won't understand a FYA either as that will require education in states that use tower or doghouse assemblies.  We've used tower assemblies here in Illinois since the 1960s (from the signals I've seen) with great success.  I sincerely doubt IDOT (much less the municipalities) will change and start using the FYA.  They don't even use doghouse assemblies here (which I can see getting mixed up easier as the green ball and green arrow are next to each other).

Deanej, I agree.  In addition, I would suggest more use of permissive phase left turns and getting rid of protected phase only left turn signals.

It's not the engineers who think the people don't understand the green ball. It's the politicians who don't understand the real reasons the engineers are doing this.

The real problem is that the green ball for one direction can turn yellow while the opposing traffic still has a green ball. Some reasons this happens include:

- At night, a signal finds no traffic on the cross street, but traffic is waiting to make left turns. It skips the cross street, causing yellow trap in one direction on the artery.

- The engineer wants to create two-way progression on a street. Often a solution can't be found without using lagging left turns.

- An emergency vehicle or a railroad preempts an intersection. The signal turns green for one approach, and red for the other three approaches.

If turns are permitted on circular green, these conditions cause yellow trap. There are only a few ways to prevent yellow trap for these cases:

- With a leading left turn, prevent phase skip.

- Use exclusively protected left turns (no turns on circular green).

- Use flashing yellow arrows for the permissive turns.

- Prohibit lagging left turns (prevents progression in most cases).

The flashing yellow arrow was created to provide a missing indication: There was no way to indicate that a permissive turn can go while the main signals are red for the approach.

Only the following systems safely allowed permissive turns to keep turning while the circular green turned yellow and then red, preventing yellow trap:

- Michigan's flashing red ball
- Delaware's flashing red arrow (still allowed)
- Seattle's flashing yellow ball
- Reno's flashing yellow arrow (newly allowed)
- Dallas phasing
- All-red clear before lagging left turn (disrupted progression)


Quote from: Brandon on June 30, 2010, 10:53:04 AM
Quote from: froggie on June 30, 2010, 10:49:08 AM
This (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/knowledge/faqs/faq_part4.htm#q16).


IMHO, it should be completely prohibited, and the whole signal issue just fades away.  Minimal cost and effort.

Yellow trap is now prohibited. It must either be kept out of the signal sequence or warned with a sign.

But new solutions are needed to fix the problem, or we lose some advantages:

- To progress traffic on a two-way street, there are three choices:
--- Prohibit some left turns.
--- Use exclusively protected turns.
--- Use flashing yellow arrows.

- The cross street can no longer be skipped if it has no cars, unless one of the above choices is used.

- Intersections with more than 4 legs can't be signalized, unless one of the above choices is used.

- Preemptions can't be used, unless one of the above choices is used.

Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 01:36:14 PM
I sincerely doubt IDOT (much less the municipalities) will change and start using the FYA.  They don't even use doghouse assemblies here (which I can see getting mixed up easier as the green ball and green arrow are next to each other).

Peoria already has FYA. And it has been written into the Illinois driving code.

Quote from: Brandon on June 29, 2010, 02:26:40 PM
There also seems to be a problem with the yellow trap created when opposing signals are phased differently.  The solution, IMHO, would be to eliminate the phasing creating it.  When opposing traffic has a green (while the subject traffic has a red) the left turns should not be permitted.

The following phasings and features would have to be eliminated to do that:

- Single lead (if phase skip allowed)
- Single lag (except T intersections and intersections with one way streets)
- Dual and quad split lead with full phase skip, unless permissive turns are eliminated
- Lead-lag with permissive turns (except where no splits occur - this is split phasing)
- Progression on most two way streets, unless permissive turns are eliminated
- Certain kinds of emergency vehicle, railroad, and drawbridge preemption
- Intersections with more than 4 legs

One very neat feature of the 4-section flashing yellow arrow face is that it can be programmed to change modes at different times of the day, or as needed under different traffic conditions:

- Lead-lead
- Lead-lag
- Lag-lag
- Exclusively protected
- Protected-permissive using flashing yellow arrow
- Protected-permissive with required stop using flashing red arrow
- Exclusively permissive using flashing yellow arrow
- Exclusively permissive with required stop using flashing red arrow
- Prohibited (e.g. during a railroad pre-emption, to prevent turn into a train)

Something tells me that the next version of the MUTCD will prohibit the 5-section "doghouse" and inline signal, except for use with shared lanes (where FYA is not allowed).

An explanation of the need for the flashing yellow arrow.

The problem is that the circular green has too many meanings to be used for controlling just the permissive left turn. Straight ahead and right turn traffic also see it and obey it.

What was really needed was a permissive movement signal indication that applies to only the left or right turn. The problem is that we almost ran out of signal indications.

The following were investigated:

- Flashing green arrow - conflicts with the usage in Canada, where flashing green means protected, and steady green means permissive.

- The Canada system - would require all signals with protected turns to be changed.

- Flashing yellow ball (Seattle)

- Flashing yellow arrow (Reno)

- Flashing red ball (Michigan) - requires a stop

- Flashing red arrow (Delaware) - requires a stop

- The Swiss system of having a flashing yellow triangle next to the green arrow if it is permissive.

- Adding a new color - problems with color blindness: the three colors we have now are balanced so the color blind can tell them apart. There was no way to add another color without causing confusion here.

- Dallas phasing

The flashing yellow arrow was chosen because it already had the required definition in most states.

Note that a flashing yellow indication has NO connotation of a protected movement, and it never did. Turning drivers facing a flashing yellow indication have to yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic, whether it is a ball or an arrow. Many drivers make the mistake of thinking a flashing yellow arrow is protected when the signal is flashing, because the three-section all-arrow head does have a protected meaning in normal signal operation.

To get the use of the flashing yellow arrow for permissive turns, the following have to happen:

- The Uniform Vehicle code has to be amended to clarify that a flashing yellow arrow, and the steady yellow arrow following it, have no protected meaning.

- The MUTCD has to be amended to allow flashing yellow arrows.

- The individual state vehicle codes have to be amended to allow flashing yellow arrows.

- Controllers have to be modified or manufactured to allow flashing yellow arrow faces.

The first two have been done. The third depends on the states. And the controller manufacturers have already jumped on the bandwagon.

Two additional requirements were added when the 2009 revision of the MUTCD was released. All left turn signals that are not shared with other movements must now use the red arrow, not the red ball. And no signal intended for exclusive use by left turning vehicles shall have a circular green indication.

[Combined multiple posts. -S.]
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on July 29, 2010, 01:48:57 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
One community in NY is using them, even though the NY legislature has not yet put FYA into the traffic code.

The doghouse is not sufficient. It causes yellow trap if the signal skips phases.
The doghouse is perfectly sufficient.  If a driver can't understand it, the driver shouldn't have a license.  By the way, we don't have yellow traps in NY because our laws are sensible and don't require you to get out of the intersection before the red.

And PLEASE learn to use the edit button!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 29, 2010, 03:24:34 PM
Has anyone yet seen a FYA in the downstate area of New York State? That would include Rockland, Westchester Counties, NYC and Long Island. I have not seen any on Long Island so far.

Also, I've travelled to California several times and I'm curious to see how they will handle this matter. On roads with 2 lanes in each direction, with no turning arrows, they have a standard configuration of one overhead signal, and one on the far-right and far-left corners. I don't think the green-ball will be prohibited on the far-left corner, as I believe the Manual only prohibits it above or directly in front of the LT lane on a median. Calif. may consider that far-left corner signal to be a supplemental head, as opposed to a separate left-turn head. Anyone here from the far-west who can tell us what they're doing out there? 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on July 29, 2010, 09:24:34 PM
In Arkansas, only Fort Smith and Little Rock have them... and I think LR only has 2 or 3.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
Quote from: deanej on July 29, 2010, 01:48:57 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
One community in NY is using them, even though the NY legislature has not yet put FYA into the traffic code.

The doghouse is not sufficient. It causes yellow trap if the signal skips phases.
The doghouse is perfectly sufficient.  If a driver can't understand it, the driver shouldn't have a license.  By the way, we don't have yellow traps in NY because our laws are sensible and don't require you to get out of the intersection before the red.

And PLEASE learn to use the edit button!

I know how to use the edit button. Did I miss a typo?

The problem is not driver understanding.

It is the need to have a signal indication that allows a permissive turn to filter through gaps in oncoming traffic when the straight-ahead signals are red. And there are reasons other than yellow trap to use it.

What do you do if the following happens? (I have seen it)

- You are waiting in the intersection to turn left into a single lane side road.

- Your signal turns yellow, then red. But oncoming traffic still has a green, because the signal skipped the side street phase.

- During the oncoming green, the oncoming right turns have a green arrow. Even if the straight ahead stream has a gap in it, the right turners are blocking your turn. The oncoming right turn stream has very heavy traffic.

- The signal changes to the side street on your left having a green and a left turn green arrow. The oncoming right turn arrow is still green. So your turn is still blocked, and traffic from the left is honking for you to get out of the way.

This is not an intended sequence, but it is the sequence I have seen at a nearby shopping center at night, when some approaches are empty. The signal has split lead left turns and doghouse signals. But phase skip brings up such sequences.

Here is another case:

- You are at a split intersection with a railroad running across the middle and two sets of signals, one on each side of the railroad track.

- You are waiting in the second intersection to turn left. There is no left turn signal at your intersection. But the first intersection (behind you) has a left turn doghouse signal facing in the opposite direction.

- The signal changes from straight ahead in both directions to the left turn for the other direction. Your signal turns red. There are three cars waiting behind you to turn. One is stupidly waiting on the tracks. But the oncoming signal is still green.

- The third car waiting in line is blocking the left turning cars from turning on the green arrow. They move forward, and are blocked. And again, one driver stops on the tracks. Now the two lines are blocking each other.

- A train comes. The signal goes into track clearance. But because your signal was already red, it does not attempt to clear the track in your direction. And the cars facing the other way are still blocked.

I saw this actually happen. Two left turners in each direction went straight ahead to clear the tracks. Two of them ran the red light to do so.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mightyace on July 30, 2010, 12:41:42 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
- A train comes. The signal goes into track clearance. But because your signal was already red, it does not attempt to clear the track in your direction. And the cars facing the other way are still blocked.

I saw this actually happen. Two left turners in each direction went straight ahead to clear the tracks. Two of them ran the red light to do so.

Well, that kind of thing is one of the times if I got caught up in that, my thought would be, "They can go ahead and ticket me, at least I'll be alive to get it."  (Though, I never purposely stop on RR tracks!)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 30, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
I know how to use the edit button. Did I miss a typo?

You posted five and then seven times in a row. If you forget something, use the edit button to go back and add something. If you want to quote multiple people, click the "Reply" tab at the bottom–don't use the Quick Reply box–and use the "Insert Quote" feature next to each post you want to quote.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 30, 2010, 03:34:04 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
QuoteI always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.
Replacing the flashing red ball (or in Delaware and Maryland the flashing red arrow) is an ancillary effect.  But the primary reason for the FYA's development and purpose is because too many drivers were confusing the steady green (i.e. the permitted left) on the tower or the doghouse signals for a protected left.
Wrong. The purpose is to eliminate yellow trap without placing restrictions on signal phasing.

The implementation of the Flashing Yellow Arrow display resulted in a number of problems and concerns being addressed. The main impetus behind it, though, was the concern many engineers had with drivers mistakenly interpreting the circular green of a 5-section signal face as a protected left when the signal is intending a permitted left. Other "divergent" left turn signals and methods of displaying permitted left turns were studied, and the FYA method used in Reno (at the time...Reno has no FYA installations currently) was found to have the greatest driver understanding. Since the permissive left was indicated by an arrow instead of circular green, it allowed permitted left turns to proceed even while the adjacent through traffic displayed a red.

A side benefit to FYA signals is that the overlap of the FYA with the opposing through vehicle green eliminates the yellow trap a 5-section display would create (without Dallas Phasing) on the lagging left turn at a lead-lag signal. Another side benefit was the ease of switching between protected-only, protected-permitted, and permitted-only modes without having to design special controller logic to make a typical 5-section display have the same functionality (as Vegas had done at many intersections).


Knowing Reno and the lack of signal coordination/progression that the area had up until about 5 or so years ago (well after all the old FYA signals were removed), I'm fairly confident that there were few (if any) FYA installations running lead-lag at the time. Thus, the side benefits of eliminating yellow trap were likely not realized in those original implementations.

Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
It is the need to have a signal indication that allows a permissive turn to filter through gaps in oncoming traffic when the straight-ahead signals are red. And there are reasons other than yellow trap to use it.

What do you do if the following happens? (I have seen it)
- You are waiting in the intersection to turn left into a single lane side road.
- Your signal turns yellow, then red. But oncoming traffic still has a green, because the signal skipped the side street phase.
- During the oncoming green, the oncoming right turns have a green arrow. Even if the straight ahead stream has a gap in it, the right turners are blocking your turn. The oncoming right turn stream has very heavy traffic.
- The signal changes to the side street on your left having a green and a left turn green arrow. The oncoming right turn arrow is still green. So your turn is still blocked, and traffic from the left is honking for you to get out of the way.

This is not an intended sequence, but it is the sequence I have seen at a nearby shopping center at night, when some approaches are empty. The signal has split lead left turns and doghouse signals. But phase skip brings up such sequences.

Firstly, if the side street phase was skipped the first time around, the signal in my direction of travel should not have turned red.
Secondly, if there's a protected right turn opposite to my left turn, good signal design should require that my left turn would be prevented when that right turn is activated--meaning that I should have a red arrow during the opposing right turn green arrow.
Although, I'm having trouble figuring out why there'd be a protected right turn on the opposite approach that's feeding into a single-lane side road...

Quote
Here is another case:
- You are at a split intersection with a railroad running across the middle and two sets of signals, one on each side of the railroad track.
- You are waiting in the second intersection to turn left. There is no left turn signal at your intersection. But the first intersection (behind you) has a left turn doghouse signal facing in the opposite direction.
- The signal changes from straight ahead in both directions to the left turn for the other direction. Your signal turns red. There are three cars waiting behind you to turn. One is stupidly waiting on the tracks. But the oncoming signal is still green.
- The third car waiting in line is blocking the left turning cars from turning on the green arrow. They move forward, and are blocked. And again, one driver stops on the tracks. Now the two lines are blocking each other.
- A train comes. The signal goes into track clearance. But because your signal was already red, it does not attempt to clear the track in your direction. And the cars facing the other way are still blocked.
I saw this actually happen. Two left turners in each direction went straight ahead to clear the tracks. Two of them ran the red light to do so.

It's not clear to me whether this scenario is trying to depict a single intersection split by railroad tracks, or two separate intersections on either side of the tracks (got a specific example?). Each case has it's own operational challenges. In either case, when the signals go into preemption mode, the second set of signals on the main road should be set to go green immediately in order to clear any vehicles that could be caught between signals. Depending on spacing of signals, they should probably be programmed to not allow vehicles to be stopped in the middle in the first place. It also seems likely that such an intersection(s) shouldn't have permitted left turn phasing to begin with, due to the railroad tracks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on July 30, 2010, 05:25:48 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a traffic light skip a phase other than a protected turn, nor an intersection split by railroad tracks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on July 30, 2010, 05:50:17 PM
Quote from: deanej on July 30, 2010, 05:25:48 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a traffic light skip a phase other than a protected turn, nor an intersection split by railroad tracks.

You need to visit Illinois, specifically Chicagoland more often.  We have a ton of intersections split by railroad tracks, and a bunch that have the tracks crossing directly through the middle of them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NJRoadfan on August 01, 2010, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Indiana doesn't have it yet, because some legislators are afraid of it.

I have kept a running list of who has and who doesn't:

HAS:

AK AL AR AZ CA CO CT DC DE FL GA IA ID IL KS KY LA MD ME MI MN MO MS MT NC NH NJ NM NV NY OR SC TX UT VA VT WA WI WY Territories GU

HAS NOT:

HI IN MA ND NE OH OK PA RI SD TN WV Territories PR VI

Add NJ to the HAS NOT list, apparently they have not gotten Intern Approval. This should be a somewhat up to date list of who actually has these signals.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ialistreq.htm

(search for "IA-10")
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MichiganDriver on August 01, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 01, 2010, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Indiana doesn't have it yet, because some legislators are afraid of it.

I have kept a running list of who has and who doesn't:

HAS:

AK AL AR AZ CA CO CT DC DE FL GA IA ID IL KS KY LA MD ME MI MN MO MS MT NC NH NJ NM NV NY OR SC TX UT VA VT WA WI WY Territories GU

HAS NOT:

HI IN MA ND NE OH OK PA RI SD TN WV Territories PR VI

Add NJ to the HAS NOT list, apparently they have not gotten Intern Approval. This should be a somewhat up to date list of who actually has these signals.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ialistreq.htm

(search for "IA-10")


Please note that Interim Approvals IA-1, IA-2, IA-4R, IA-8, IA-9, and IA-10 have been terminated because the devices involved have been incorporated into the 2009 MUTCD.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 30, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
I know how to use the edit button. Did I miss a typo?

You posted five and then seven times in a row. If you forget something, use the edit button to go back and add something. If you want to quote multiple people, click the "Reply" tab at the bottom–don't use the Quick Reply box–and use the "Insert Quote" feature next to each post you want to quote.

That's how another BBS I use wants me to do it. They don't like me including several different replies from different posters in the same post.

I am going to keep doing that, because I can't keep track of which BBS prefers what. I use about 20 different BBS systems, and this is the only one that seems to want reply posts combined.

Also note that those replies were posted at different times. I was returning to the BBS between bursts of taking care of other business (e.g. phone calls). All of the other BBS systems I use close the post to further editing after 15 minutes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on August 02, 2010, 12:40:29 AM
TS: there is also a "modify" button if you want to go back and revise or supplement what you've already posted.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 12:57:15 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 30, 2010, 03:34:04 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:22:47 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 28, 2010, 06:17:31 PM
QuoteI always assumed FYA was to replace the flashing red ball and other divergent left turn signals (non-standard) in place in many states.  The tower or doghouse (depending on state) is not affected from what I can see as that has separate green and yellow arrows for a protected left and already provides for a permitted left.
Replacing the flashing red ball (or in Delaware and Maryland the flashing red arrow) is an ancillary effect.  But the primary reason for the FYA's development and purpose is because too many drivers were confusing the steady green (i.e. the permitted left) on the tower or the doghouse signals for a protected left.
Wrong. The purpose is to eliminate yellow trap without placing restrictions on signal phasing.
The implementation of the Flashing Yellow Arrow display resulted in a number of problems and concerns being addressed. The main impetus behind it, though, was the concern many engineers had with drivers mistakenly interpreting the circular green of a 5-section signal face as a protected left when the signal is intending a permitted left. Other "divergent" left turn signals and methods of displaying permitted left turns were studied, and the FYA method used in Reno (at the time...Reno has no FYA installations currently) was found to have the greatest driver understanding. Since the permissive left was indicated by an arrow instead of circular green, it allowed permitted left turns to proceed even while the adjacent through traffic displayed a red.

This was the reason behind the Reno signals, but not the reason behind the Michigan flashing red ball, the Seattle flashing yellow ball, or Dallas phasing. They were trying to remove yellow trap. The purpose of the Kittleson study was also to remove yellow trap, not to remove driver confusion.

Also, the original Reno implementation could not prevent yellow trap. It was just the source of the idea of using a flashing yellow arrow to prevent yellow trap.

Note that what some engineers thought was driver confusion was actually yellow trap. So they went about solving it the wrong way.

Quote
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
It is the need to have a signal indication that allows a permissive turn to filter through gaps in oncoming traffic when the straight-ahead signals are red. And there are reasons other than yellow trap to use it.

What do you do if the following happens? (I have seen it)
- You are waiting in the intersection to turn left into a single lane side road.
- Your signal turns yellow, then red. But oncoming traffic still has a green, because the signal skipped the side street phase.
- During the oncoming green, the oncoming right turns have a green arrow. Even if the straight ahead stream has a gap in it, the right turners are blocking your turn. The oncoming right turn stream has very heavy traffic.
- The signal changes to the side street on your left having a green and a left turn green arrow. The oncoming right turn arrow is still green. So your turn is still blocked, and traffic from the left is honking for you to get out of the way.

This is not an intended sequence, but it is the sequence I have seen at a nearby shopping center at night, when some approaches are empty. The signal has split lead left turns and doghouse signals. But phase skip brings up such sequences.

Firstly, if the side street phase was skipped the first time around, the signal in my direction of travel should not have turned red.

But it does so anyway, if the controller is not modified to specifically prevent it. Most of the signals in my area do this.

QuoteSecondly, if there's a protected right turn opposite to my left turn, good signal design should require that my left turn would be prevented when that right turn is activated--meaning that I should have a red arrow during the opposing right turn green arrow.
Although, I'm having trouble figuring out why there'd be a protected right turn on the opposite approach that's feeding into a single-lane side road...

This is an actual intersection near me. The protected right turn was installed to clear out heavy right turn traffic during the equally heavy left turn traffic that overlaps it. But whoever programmed the signal sequence put an overlap on that right turn to overlap the straight ahead phase. Note that much of the signal "design" in my area is actually done by politicians, who override the decisions of engineers, because they want something else.

Quote
Quote
Here is another case:
- You are at a split intersection with a railroad running across the middle and two sets of signals, one on each side of the railroad track.
- You are waiting in the second intersection to turn left. There is no left turn signal at your intersection. But the first intersection (behind you) has a left turn doghouse signal facing in the opposite direction.
- The signal changes from straight ahead in both directions to the left turn for the other direction. Your signal turns red. There are three cars waiting behind you to turn. One is stupidly waiting on the tracks. But the oncoming signal is still green.
- The third car waiting in line is blocking the left turning cars from turning on the green arrow. They move forward, and are blocked. And again, one driver stops on the tracks. Now the two lines are blocking each other.
- A train comes. The signal goes into track clearance. But because your signal was already red, it does not attempt to clear the track in your direction. And the cars facing the other way are still blocked.
I saw this actually happen. Two left turners in each direction went straight ahead to clear the tracks. Two of them ran the red light to do so.

It's not clear to me whether this scenario is trying to depict a single intersection split by railroad tracks, or two separate intersections on either side of the tracks (got a specific example?). Each case has it's own operational challenges. In either case, when the signals go into preemption mode, the second set of signals on the main road should be set to go green immediately in order to clear any vehicles that could be caught between signals. Depending on spacing of signals, they should probably be programmed to not allow vehicles to be stopped in the middle in the first place. It also seems likely that such an intersection(s) shouldn't have permitted left turn phasing to begin with, due to the railroad tracks.

Here is the intersection pair.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.1564,-86.582528&spn=0.001163,0.002068&t=k&z=19 (http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=39.1564,-86.582528&spn=0.001163,0.002068&t=k&z=19)

- The road on the right is a driveway to a very large factory.

- The signals beyond the tracks are visibility limited.

- Notice that there is no left turn lane for southbound traffic.

- A driver turning into the factory can be trapped if the side street phases are skipped and the northbound left turn is called.

- The event listed above happened when people were arriving for work at the start of the first shift.

- There is also a school down the road to the left with employees arriving at the same time.

- During railroad preemption hold, both side streets get left turn arrows for the duration. Turns on red are prohibited in all directions.

I told the engineer that yellow trap was happening, but he is one of those people who thinks that the normal left turn right of way law is enough, and that people "need to watch traffic before turning."

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on August 02, 2010, 12:58:04 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Also note that those replies were posted at different times. I was returning to the BBS between bursts of taking care of other business (e.g. phone calls). All of the other BBS systems I use close the post to further editing after 15 minutes.

Well, here at this site, you can edit your post 5 years after you make it if you feel like it.  There are no time restrictions.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 01:05:38 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on August 01, 2010, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Indiana doesn't have it yet, because some legislators are afraid of it.

I have kept a running list of who has and who doesn't:

HAS:

AK AL AR AZ CA CO CT DC DE FL GA IA ID IL KS KY LA MD ME MI MN MO MS MT NC NH NJ NM NV NY OR SC TX UT VA VT WA WI WY Territories GU

HAS NOT:

HI IN MA ND NE OH OK PA RI SD TN WV Territories PR VI

Add NJ to the HAS NOT list, apparently they have not gotten Intern Approval. This should be a somewhat up to date list of who actually has these signals.

http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ialistreq.htm

(search for "IA-10")

There is no interim approval any more. FYA is part of the MUTCD now!

One NJ community (downstate) has one signal. I can't find the news release on it anymore, because some newspapers either don't put archived stories on the Internet, or charge for accessing them. The link I saved now goes to a story on pet dogs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 02, 2010, 12:21:59 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 30, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
I know how to use the edit button. Did I miss a typo?

You posted five and then seven times in a row. If you forget something, use the edit button to go back and add something. If you want to quote multiple people, click the "Reply" tab at the bottom–don't use the Quick Reply box–and use the "Insert Quote" feature next to each post you want to quote.

That's how another BBS I use wants me to do it. They don't like me including several different replies from different posters in the same post.

I am going to keep doing that

You are not.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Troubleshooter on August 04, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 02, 2010, 12:21:59 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 02, 2010, 12:33:54 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 30, 2010, 02:19:01 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 30, 2010, 12:03:07 AM
I know how to use the edit button. Did I miss a typo?

You posted five and then seven times in a row. If you forget something, use the edit button to go back and add something. If you want to quote multiple people, click the "Reply" tab at the bottom—don't use the Quick Reply box—and use the "Insert Quote" feature next to each post you want to quote.

That's how another BBS I use wants me to do it. They don't like me including several different replies from different posters in the same post.

I am going to keep doing that

You are not.

I am not "forgetting things"

I am posting at different times as I read on in the topic, and see something else that I want to reply to. These are totally different thoughts, not connected to each other, that happen at different times. So the use of the reply button instead of the quick reply makes no sense at all. By the time I see that I want to make the second reply, the first one is already forgotten.

I now know what to do, but your instructions on how to do it made no sense. The modify button does not let me add a quoted post with the author included, and the reply button won't let me edit the post I already saved.

Here is the procedure I am now using, so I don't lose the author of the post:

1. Click quick reply. If it is the first post in the topic, go ahead and make it.
2. If it is a subsequent reply, copy the quoted text into the clipboard instead of posting.
3. Modify the first post I made, and paste the clipboard contents at the bottom.
4. Add my reply after that, and save the edit.

Is this right????? It's complicated.

You have some weird rules here. At every other BBS, I would be kicked off for doing that. Plus, it would usually violate the 15 minute timeout on one page, and I get logged off.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 04, 2010, 01:50:42 AM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on August 04, 2010, 01:48:22 AM
Is this right????? It's complicated.

I think that when the initial frenzy wears off, there will be a much diminished set of posts that you will want to reply to.  Two or three posts in a row is okay - five or six is a bit excessive.

QuoteYou have some weird rules here. At every other BBS, I would be kicked off for doing that. Plus, it would usually violate the 15 minute timeout on one page, and I get logged off.

we sure as Hell don't have such idiocy as a "15 minute timeout".  Your cookie expires in 2037.  None of that lunacy of making you redo everything just because the server thought you were a security threat.  (See: eBay and their idiocy.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on August 04, 2010, 02:38:01 AM
Never seen a 15 minute time out on edits here, either.

Anyway, back on topic, the 3-light multimode FYAs have been popping up like crazy in Oregon as of late, and they seem to be becoming the preferred design now, at least in Washington County.  Noticed 3 new ones in Hillsboro the other day.

-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 04, 2010, 05:08:15 AM
Okay, this is the simplest way to insert multiple quotes:

Don't touch the "Quick Reply" box. Click the "Reply" tab at the bottom of the page FIRST. (If you're still reading the thread for stuff to reply to bring it up in a new tab to make it easier if you like.) When you see something you want to quote, click the "Insert Quote" link on the post you want to quote. That will insert it in the box where you can type under it to your heart's content. To insert the next quote click the "Insert Quote" link on the post you want to quote. That will insert it in the box where you can type under it to your heart's content. Ad nauseum.

This is not a BBS. This is a forum. There is a significant difference. BBSes died around 1998, for one. You will need to adapt your posting habits to the new environment, or the environment will...not react well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: FreewayDan on August 08, 2010, 12:35:43 PM
Flashing yellow left turn signals are now in the Houston area.  Sugar Land is the first in the area with FYAs installed at five intersections:

http://www.fortbendnow.com/2010/04/16/45180
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MichiganDriver on August 22, 2010, 09:24:04 AM
Which states are putting these in the quickest? I know Oregon and Michigan have committed to systematic replacement. But what about other states?

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on August 22, 2010, 09:48:08 AM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on August 22, 2010, 09:24:04 AM
Which states are putting these in the quickest? I know Oregon and Michigan have committed to systematic replacement. But what about other states?


Not Arkansas. Most cities say they don't want them. Fort Smith started with around 20 of them 3 years ago, but they have expanded upon it since. Several intersections have been upgraded to FYA's and most new signals are FYA's, where there is a multi-phase left turn signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on August 22, 2010, 11:09:33 AM
VA has also added one in the Roanoke vicinity and plans to add more throughout southwest VA.  http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/salem/2010/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes48017.asp (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/salem/2010/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes48017.asp)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 15, 2010, 05:53:29 PM
Virginia Tech, where I currently attend, is now getting a couple on Southgate Drive (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/salem/2010/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes48407.asp).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tom on September 19, 2010, 04:19:32 PM
Yes, there are some flashing yellow arrows in Michigan, but for those who prefer the left turn green arrows, they are still around in Michigan. :coffee:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Coelacanth on October 19, 2010, 01:54:54 PM
Quote from: froggie on June 17, 2010, 02:43:07 PM
Minnesota only has one that I'm aware of, at MN 110/MN 149.
Well this thread has wandered around a bit, but I just thought I'd point out that there is one of these signals on CSAH 9 at Nevada Avenue in New Hope. I think there are actually a couple of them along CSAH 9 (42nd Ave/Rockford Road) between TH 100 and I-494, but the one at Nevada is the only one that I've definitely seen with the flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on October 19, 2010, 05:01:38 PM
Doesn't surprise me.  As I understand it, MnDOT recently changed their policy to where all new traffic signal installations that normally would have gotten a protected-permitted signal will get the FYA instead.  Presumably, this will include installations funded via state aid.  Existing signals will only be retrofitted "when necessary"...or probably when the signal comes up for normal replacement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bickendan on October 19, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on August 04, 2010, 02:38:01 AM
Anyway, back on topic, the 3-light multimode FYAs have been popping up like crazy in Oregon as of late, and they seem to be becoming the preferred design now, at least in Washington County.  Noticed 3 new ones in Hillsboro the other day.

-Alex (Tarkus)
Gresham has about five sets on Powell alone.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on November 02, 2010, 11:47:35 AM
Earlier in the thread it was mentioned where a few FYA installations in North Carolina were.  While in the state over this past weekend, I found three more:  a relatively new installation at NC 68/NC 150 in Oak Ridge, and two along US 70 outside Pine Level.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: on_wisconsin on November 02, 2010, 11:57:07 AM
Wisconsin only has two flashing yellows (that I know of): one in Appleton and one in Eau Claire.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Dr Frankenstein on November 02, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
I want to get this right first... This would signal a protected left turn? With through traffic permitted?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mgk920 on November 02, 2010, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 02, 2010, 11:57:07 AM
Wisconsin only has two flashing yellows (that I know of): one in Appleton and one in Eau Claire.

The one in Appleton is at Midway Rd (County 'AP') and Telulah Ave.  It was turned on when the rebuild project on Midway Rd was completed a couple of weeks ago.

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=44.229549,-88.37883&spn=0.015837,0.027595&t=h&z=15

The 'Y' intersection at Plank Rd a couple of blocks to the east is now a roundabout.

I can easily think of a few other intersections in and around Appleton that could make GOOD use of that aspect, too.

Mike
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mgk920 on November 02, 2010, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on November 02, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
I want to get this right first... This would signal a protected left turn? With through traffic permitted?

It is the equivalent of a green light with no arrows at all, used on left-turn lanes with separate 'arrow' signals.  It says that 'you may turn left, BUT oncoming traffic has a green light' (NOT a protected turn).

A green arrow means that 'you may turn left - oncoming traffic has a RED light' (a protected turn).

Mike
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on November 02, 2010, 03:18:23 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on November 02, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
I want to get this right first... This would signal a protected left turn? With through traffic permitted?

There's four different possibilities with a FYA signal:

Red and Steady Yellow Arrow: same as always
Green Arrow: Protected Left Turn
Flashing Yellow Arrow: Permitted Left Turn

Through traffic is controlled by separate signals and not affected by the FYA.

Quote from: Bickendan on October 19, 2010, 05:38:00 PM
Gresham has about five sets on Powell alone.

They really are popping up everywhere. :sombrero:  And since I made my earlier post, they've popped up even more places in Washington County.  Just about every signal on Baseline, Cornell and Evergreen (except those with dual left turn lanes) is a FYA now, and I noticed a few on Tualatin-Sherwood Road the other day as well.  I wouldn't be shocked if they outnumbered the old protected phase setups now county-wide.  It's amazing just how fast they've been converting them.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with Salem . . . that place is doghouse central.

-Alex (Tarkus)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on November 03, 2010, 02:55:29 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on November 02, 2010, 03:09:53 PM
Quote from: Dr Frankenstein on November 02, 2010, 02:39:13 PM
I want to get this right first... This would signal a protected left turn? With through traffic permitted?

It is the equivalent of a green light with no arrows at all, used on left-turn lanes with separate 'arrow' signals.  It says that 'you may turn left, BUT oncoming traffic has a green light' (NOT a protected turn).

A green arrow means that 'you may turn left - oncoming traffic has a RED light' (a protected turn).

Mike

Still happy these aren't in PA.  I still can't believe these things are advocated for.  I know if I came upon one, without reading about them here first (and assuming there is no sign next to the signal about it's operation), I would certainly assume I did NOT have to yield to oncoming traffic.  (Though it's "blinking yellow", so I'd "proceed with caution" of course, so any accident wouldn't be too bad.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DRMan on November 03, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
I've seen a couple of recently-installed FYAs on NH 125, at North Rd and (I think maybe) South Rd in Brentwood.

Question:  does any jurisdiction use any kind of signage to explain to non-roadgeeks just what to do here?  I mean, we know what's going on, and a reasonably attentive driver should be able to figure it out.  But, driver training being what it is, a sign saying something like "Yield On Flashing Yellow Arrow" might not be a bad thing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on November 03, 2010, 10:31:51 PM
What MnDOT uses (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/publ/mnstdsigns/R%20Series/R10-X12.pdf), per their Standard Signs Manual.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mgk920 on November 03, 2010, 10:39:54 PM
Quote from: DRMan on November 03, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
I've seen a couple of recently-installed FYAs on NH 125, at North Rd and (I think maybe) South Rd in Brentwood.

Question:  does any jurisdiction use any kind of signage to explain to non-roadgeeks just what to do here?  I mean, we know what's going on, and a reasonably attentive driver should be able to figure it out.  But, driver training being what it is, a sign saying something like "Yield On Flashing Yellow Arrow" might not be a bad thing.

The one here in Appleton has signs explaining the signal aspect.

Mike
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DRMan on November 04, 2010, 07:18:13 AM
Quote from: froggie on November 03, 2010, 10:31:51 PM
What MnDOT uses (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/publ/mnstdsigns/R%20Series/R10-X12.pdf), per their Standard Signs Manual.


Excellent, that's what I would expect everywhere.

No signage here in NH, but that's not a surprise.   :-/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on November 04, 2010, 08:34:06 AM
Texas uses a similar sign but with a picture instead of "flashing yellow", as seen in Google Maps here:
http://goo.gl/UIE8z (http://goo.gl/UIE8z)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on November 04, 2010, 09:27:58 AM
QuoteNo signage here in NH, but that's not a surprise.

I'm pretty sure I saw a sign at the US 4/202/NH 107 example, but I could be wrong on that.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on November 04, 2010, 09:52:00 AM
Quote from: realjd on November 04, 2010, 08:34:06 AM
Texas uses a similar sign but with a picture instead of "flashing yellow", as seen in Google Maps here:
http://goo.gl/UIE8z (http://goo.gl/UIE8z)


Arkansas uses the same sign.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MichiganDriver on November 04, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
No signage in Michigan, but since we're used to flashing red for left turns more it's more intuitive for drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on November 04, 2010, 01:26:10 PM
No signs in OR.  But, then, we've had them for 5 years now.  They told us what to do with them on the news and, between that and simply observing others, oregonians have pretty much figured it out.  My problem now is remembering which intersections don't have FYA and stopping at those through the cycle.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on November 04, 2010, 02:52:37 PM
I probably should have updated this awhile back but as of now there is still no flashing yellow on Southgate Dr at Duck Pond Dr on campus even though the one on Southgate at Spring Rd and Tech Center Dr has been up for almost a month-and-a-half now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on November 04, 2010, 03:36:41 PM
Quote from: MichiganDriver on November 04, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
No signage in Michigan, but since we're used to flashing red for left turns more it's more intuitive for drivers.

MDOT published a webpage and brochure (http://www.michigan.gov/mdot/0,1607,7-151-9615-157538--,00.html) explaining the signal back when it was introducing them and has more recently produced a video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIkanxT72KI). (Just a bit of minutia: the video features the intersection where MDOT first installed the FYA, near the State Secondary Complex).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cb6000 on November 13, 2010, 03:34:43 PM
Malvern is the next city in Arkansas to have at least one flashing yellow arrow. It can be found on the southbound lane on Main St. (at the Main and Page Ave. intersection). The downtown area is done with the activation of the new signals to replace the old ones.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on November 14, 2010, 07:46:48 PM
MoDOT is adding a bunch of flashing yellow arrows to US 50-61-67 around MO 30 this week, per a couple of message boards placed along the road.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JREwing78 on November 15, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
Quote from: on_wisconsin on November 02, 2010, 11:57:07 AM
Wisconsin only has two flashing yellows (that I know of): one in Appleton and one in Eau Claire.

Add University Ave in Madison to that list, since this summer and fall's construction work.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: algorerhythms on December 14, 2010, 01:06:34 PM
Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 28, 2010, 09:19:44 PM
Indiana doesn't have it yet, because some legislators are afraid of it.

I have kept a running list of who has and who doesn't:

HAS:

AK AL AR AZ CA CO CT DC DE FL GA IA ID IL KS KY LA MD ME MI MN MO MS MT NC NH NJ NM NV NY OR SC TX UT VA VT WA WI WY Territories GU

HAS NOT:

HI IN MA ND NE OH OK PA RI SD TN WV Territories PR VI

Oklahoma may soon move to the "Has" list (http://normantranscript.com/headlines/x96559118/City-may-add-flashing-yellow-arrows-to-signals)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Coelacanth on December 16, 2010, 01:38:44 PM
I just discovered that Mn/DOT has a webpage devoted to the flashing yellow.

http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/signals/flashingyellowarrow.html (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/signals/flashingyellowarrow.html)

This includes a link to a pdf brochure. Not sure who they are distributing the brochure to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MDOTFanFB on December 18, 2010, 08:17:49 AM
Saw an intersection with these mounted on mast arms in Romulus last week.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh4.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2eqmGiiI%2FAAAAAAAAABk%2FUtZQQPNyWsI%2Fs800%2FSAM_0077.JPG&hash=6cbf70950ef86ac03dd78661a7fcc47722deab73)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Flh5.ggpht.com%2F_AXtC_YsMww4%2FTQO2gpD3UvI%2FAAAAAAAAABs%2FK-Z3U09q3FM%2Fs800%2FSAM_0079.JPG&hash=bf8c46fe8f3640d94979af1367127600e6d8bc79)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on December 18, 2010, 06:47:04 PM
Quote from: cb6000 on November 13, 2010, 03:34:43 PM
Malvern is the next city in Arkansas to have at least one flashing yellow arrow. It can be found on the southbound lane on Main St. (at the Main and Page Ave. intersection). The downtown area is done with the activation of the new signals to replace the old ones.

Is this the only intersection with the FYA?  There were also a couple old 4-Ways in the area: have they been replaced now? :(
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on December 18, 2010, 09:15:40 PM
I'm still waiting for Ohio to get onboard with red arrows, let along flashing yellow.  There's a brand new rework of an intersection in an unincorporated area just outside Cincinnati where they repaved the road and installed new signals while changing a single left turn lane to a double.  The new turn signals still use red balls, and there's not even the usual "left turn signal" sign that usually accompanies them.  They are using yellow-bordered backplates though, which is quite a jump from an almost universal lack of backplates in Ohio.  Still, this being mostly a span wire state, that should really be accompanied by a secondary tether across the bottom of the signals, as they get blown around a lot more. 

Also, am I the only one who thinks those cameras on the mast arms like in MDOTFanFB's second picture are just hideous?  Can't they put a light there too?  It just looks so unfinished otherwise. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on December 18, 2010, 10:49:00 PM
Quote from: jjakucyk on December 18, 2010, 09:15:40 PM
Also, am I the only one who thinks those cameras on the mast arms like in MDOTFanFB's second picture are just hideous?  Can't they put a light there too?  It just looks so unfinished otherwise. 

I know the rationale for having the video detectors in a higher position, but for whatever reason, a lot of agencies (Wayne County in this particular instance) choose not to install a streetlamp at the end of that arm. It isn't like each one would need a lamp, though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on December 19, 2010, 10:59:23 AM
Quote from: jjakucyk on December 18, 2010, 09:15:40 PM
Still, this being mostly a span wire state, that should really be accompanied by a secondary tether across the bottom of the signals, as they get blown around a lot more. 

Interestingly, single-cable span wire installations are significantly more resistant to wind damage than those with a secondary tether:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/research-center/Completed_Proj/Summary_STR/FDOT_BD545_57_rpt.pdf

Not that Ohio has to deal with hurricane force winds very often!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on December 19, 2010, 11:24:49 AM
Quote from: realjd on December 19, 2010, 10:59:23 AM
Interestingly, single-cable span wire installations are significantly more resistant to wind damage than those with a secondary tether:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/research-center/Completed_Proj/Summary_STR/FDOT_BD545_57_rpt.pdf

Interesting, but they're talking about a tether across the top of the signal, with a pole connecting it to a load-bearing catenary higher up, as in:  http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=orlando,+fl&sll=39.16748,-84.534789&sspn=0.386493,0.624847&gl=us&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&ll=28.450374,-81.400701&spn=0.001722,0.002441&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=28.450368,-81.400785&panoid=pbOEw4cq_AMdiviXKbHtiw&cbp=12,155.83,,0,-8.6

I can see how that would add stresses to the support pole without significantly reducing swinging in heavy winds.  But what I'm talking about is a tether across the BOTTOM of the signal, which also helps to keep signs from flopping around too much as well, like so:  http://maps.google.com/maps?gl=us&om=0&ie=UTF8&ll=39.108352,-84.431973&spn=0.001519,0.002441&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.108475,-84.432062&panoid=UyFLeuo3AMzXij1WRLFw8w&cbp=12,15.16,,0,-9.14

Of course, Indiana takes it to a somewhat absurd extreme, with a catenary, top tether, AND bottom tether, and no poles.  It seems they don't really like the red arrows much either.  http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=indianapolis,+in&sll=28.450369,-81.400784&sspn=0.001722,0.002441&gl=us&g=Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Indianapolis,+Marion,+Indiana&ll=39.926983,-86.158237&spn=0.001493,0.002441&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.926987,-86.158033&panoid=XXP0JujHZ32GtjhdTx1-kA&cbp=12,220.14,,0,-6.37

Sorry to stray a bit off topic. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: hm insulators on December 20, 2010, 02:58:30 PM
I've not seen them yet, but apparently a few of these flashing yellow left turn signals have made it to Chandler, Arizona, according to an article in the Arizona Republic the other day.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tchafe1978 on December 22, 2010, 10:44:11 AM
WisDOT pointing to benefits of new flashing yellow turn arrows in Milwaukee County

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_2458.html_786229440.html

I guess Wisconsin is getting on the bandwagon now. I still have yet to see one of these in operation. I hadn't even heard of them until reading this thread. Guess I better get up to speed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Crazy Volvo Guy on January 17, 2011, 06:27:26 PM
Quote from: jjakucyk on December 19, 2010, 11:24:49 AMOf course, Indiana takes it to a somewhat absurd extreme, with a catenary, top tether, AND bottom tether, and no poles.  It seems they don't really like the red arrows much either.  http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=indianapolis,+in&sll=28.450369,-81.400784&sspn=0.001722,0.002441&gl=us&g=Orlando,+Orange,+Florida&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Indianapolis,+Marion,+Indiana&ll=39.926983,-86.158237&spn=0.001493,0.002441&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=39.926987,-86.158033&panoid=XXP0JujHZ32GtjhdTx1-kA&cbp=12,220.14,,0,-6.37

I wouldn't call that an absurd extreme at all.  Indiana's span wire installations are among the only ones I've ever seen that actually look alright - with New York being the only other span-wire state I could say that for.

Side note: I used to live right at that intersection when I was a wee little lad.  Behind the McDonalds when what was there were really cool 1970s (loosely) Bavarian styled apartments.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on January 27, 2011, 06:49:54 PM
I just saw the first FYA that I know of in Oklahoma on the way to get milk. It's at the corner of 12th Ave SE and Lindsey Street in Norman. The way they cycle to red before going to FYA is going to take some getting used to. I could see it causing problems if someone ignores the red assuming that it's going to cycle to FYA next and they can go, but instead the light stays on red.

I kind of wonder if 12th and Lindsey is serving as Norman's "test intersection". It is at this point the only intersection in the city that I know of that is using green mixed-case mastarm signage (to comply with the '09 MUTCD) instead of the red and blue signage the rest of the city uses.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 29, 2011, 01:12:19 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on January 27, 2011, 06:49:54 PM
I just saw the first FYA that I know of in Oklahoma on the way to get milk. It's at the corner of 12th Ave SE and Lindsey Street in Norman. The way they cycle to red before going to FYA is going to take some getting used to. I could see it causing problems if someone ignores the red assuming that it's going to cycle to FYA next and they can go, but instead the light stays on red.

Scott, are you saying that the signal cycles like this: Green arrow > Yellow arrow > Red arrow > FYA?  Is this a leading left turn?

If that's the case, the MUTCD does not require that the red arrow follow the steady yellow arrow in this manner. The installations I've seen in Carson City go straight from steady yellow arrow to FYA. This would seem to be the preferred operation, especially since the FYA is supposed to be tied with the opposing green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on January 29, 2011, 09:43:08 AM
I believe it is a leading left (I may be off on my terminology)–the green arrow comes with the green light for one direction, then switches to FYA, then the opposing direction gets a green light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on January 29, 2011, 08:18:31 PM
Found a bunch of the flashing yellow arrows around Peoria, IL today.  There's one on IL 8 in East Peoria just east of I-74, a lot more on US 150 just east of IL 6, possibly one on IL 9 in Pekin east of IL 29 - couldn't tell for sure, this one might have just been a flashing beacon for a sign - and one on IL 29 south of IL 9 in Pekin.

EDIT:  Forgot to mention that signage with them was not consistent - some had "Left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow," some had the same sign but with a picture of the arrow, and some didn't have any sign.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: algorerhythms on January 30, 2011, 01:03:24 AM
Today I went through the intersection at 12th and Lindsey in Norman, OK, where the flashing yellow signal has been installed, and ended up thinking about the familiarity aspect of this signal. Despite having previously seen the Norman Transcript article about it and having seen Scott's post a couple days ago, when I arrived at the intersection, my first thought on seeing the signal was still "a flashing yellow arrow? What the hell does that mean?" If some random person comes up on such an intersection, are they going to be able to figure it out (i.e. are they going to read the sign that explains it)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 31, 2011, 10:37:10 AM
During the studies, researchers found that the FYA made the most sense intuitively to study participants; there was no sign used to explain FYA displays in the study.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on February 25, 2011, 02:54:07 PM
Bentonville, AR has recently added FYA signals near the High School

Addendum: Batesville, AR recently added FYA at a couple intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on March 02, 2011, 09:16:53 AM
The city of Kalamazoo is now on a FYA kick. Most of the intersections where they're popping up near downtown had undergone signal upgrades within the last 3-5 years, and one intersection in particular (Water and Edwards) had just been upgraded with doghouses in the latter part of last year. I believe I've mentioned that the Kalamazoo signal engineer liked to use lagging lefts with the doghouses, so I consider this a positive development.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on March 04, 2011, 10:35:59 AM
The FYA aren't performing well in Peoria, IL:
http://www.pjstar.com/homepage/x945639503/Flashing-yellow-lights-signal-confusion (http://www.pjstar.com/homepage/x945639503/Flashing-yellow-lights-signal-confusion)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on March 05, 2011, 11:59:19 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on January 30, 2011, 01:03:24 AM
Today I went through the intersection at 12th and Lindsey in Norman, OK, where the flashing yellow signal has been installed, and ended up thinking about the familiarity aspect of this signal. Despite having previously seen the Norman Transcript article about it and having seen Scott's post a couple days ago, when I arrived at the intersection, my first thought on seeing the signal was still "a flashing yellow arrow? What the hell does that mean?" If some random person comes up on such an intersection, are they going to be able to figure it out (i.e. are they going to read the sign that explains it)?

Not sure if you have utilities through the City of Norman or not, but with last month's bill they included a brochure on FYA's.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mgk920 on March 06, 2011, 12:55:22 PM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on December 22, 2010, 10:44:11 AM
WisDOT pointing to benefits of new flashing yellow turn arrows in Milwaukee County

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_2458.html_786229440.html

I guess Wisconsin is getting on the bandwagon now. I still have yet to see one of these in operation. I hadn't even heard of them until reading this thread. Guess I better get up to speed.

There is now one of these at the US 41/WI 26 interchange in Oshkosh.

Mike
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on March 06, 2011, 04:57:06 PM
There are so many in Beaverton, now, that you have to remember to stop at the few that haven't been changed yet and in neigboring cities that haven't started yet.

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 09, 2011, 12:28:39 AM
What is Nevada DOT doing with $1 million...installing (converting?) about 58 FYAs around Reno/Sparks, Carson City & Douglas County.

"Flashing yellow lights are coming" (http://www.rgj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2011103050319)
Quote from: Reno Gazette Journal
Truckee Meadows motorists will soon notice flashing yellow lights at intersections across Northern Nevada as part of a program to make them more cautious when making left turns.

Fifty-eight signals will be installed at intersections in Reno-Sparks, elsewhere in Washoe County, Carson City and Douglas County at a cost of about $1 million. The program is administered by the Nevada Department of Transportation, the Regional Transportation Commission and other agencies.

The yellow signals -- flashing arrows -- will be placed over left turn lanes and are designed to emphasize motorists must be cautious when making left turns, yielding to oncoming vehicles and pedestrians. Experts said they believe the yellow lights are more effective than circular green lights previously used.

For more information visit www.nevadadot.com/flashingyellow

According to a February 8th interview at KOLO8-TV News: There are going to be over 100 intersections within these areas. The first Reno area install was to have been finished on February 27th, with two more installs per day as they move forward through March.


I haven't seen any Reno ones yet, but I haven't had occasion to do too much driving lately. Interesting, since as I recall the FYA as adopted by the MUTCD started off here in Reno, but has not been seen on the city's streets for the last 10+ years. I am wondering how drivers will take to it now...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 26, 2011, 08:41:02 PM
Following up to my previous post... I've been seeing more and more of these installations pop up around Reno lately. Every site I've seen them at thus far, they've all been replacements where previously a protected/permitted 5-section doghouse (mastarm) or 5-section vertical (far pole mount) displays had been used. I've seen nothing new as of yet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cu2010 on March 29, 2011, 12:17:33 AM
I saw one in Michigan during my trip there a few weeks ago...just off I-94 along 26 Mile Rd/Marine City Highway. It was...well, odd to me, being a New Yorker and never having seen one before...I think I prefer the doghouse.

I still haven't seen any here in western NY...though NY has been quickly jumping on the stupid "must make street blades mixed-case and uber-reflective so we waste taxpayer money...and while we're at it let's use Extra Large Leading Letters in our directional blades and ugly NY shields" bandwagon, so seeing the FYA soon wouldn't surprise me one bit...

(and to think of how much money spent that could be better spent elsewhere!)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 17, 2011, 06:51:27 PM
More of them coming to Illinois, this time in Chillicothe:

http://www.chillicothetimesbulletin.com/news/x243993208/Chillicothes-three-traffic-signals-to-have-yellow-arrows-installed-this-week (http://www.chillicothetimesbulletin.com/news/x243993208/Chillicothes-three-traffic-signals-to-have-yellow-arrows-installed-this-week)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on May 18, 2011, 12:41:53 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 17, 2011, 06:51:27 PM
More of them coming to Illinois, this time in Chillicothe:

http://www.chillicothetimesbulletin.com/news/x243993208/Chillicothes-three-traffic-signals-to-have-yellow-arrows-installed-this-week (http://www.chillicothetimesbulletin.com/news/x243993208/Chillicothes-three-traffic-signals-to-have-yellow-arrows-installed-this-week)

Looks like District 4 (Peoria) is using them.  We'll see if District 1 (Chicago) uses them.  They have a thing for towers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on May 19, 2011, 12:36:57 PM
I think they're putting one up in a new intersection on County Road 535 in Orange County, just north of the Magic Kingdom (the intersection itself is not on Disney property). The signal isn't operating yet, but I noticed the left turn signal has four signal heads, and it appears that there is one green, two yellow, and one red. Will be interesting to see how these Florida drivers can handle it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 10, 2011, 07:49:42 AM
They're coming to Brevard County, FL also:
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/20110610/NEWS01/106100322/New-type-traffic-signal-coming-Brevard?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Home

It sounds like they're going to completely replace doghouse signals whenever they redo intersections. It also is interesting that they're using a 4-head signal instead of the 5-head signal that I usually see for FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on June 10, 2011, 04:52:44 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 10, 2011, 07:49:42 AMIt also is interesting that they're using a 4-head signal instead of the 5-head signal that I usually see for FYA.

Around here (Beaverton, OR) they are all 4 head except for the few 3 head ones (either no green arrow or the green arrow and the FYA are both in the same head).

red arrow
yellow arrow
FYA
green arrow

red arrow
yellow arrow
FYA

red arrow
yellow arrow
FYA/green arrow

What's the 5th head for?

--Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 10, 2011, 09:58:32 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 10, 2011, 07:49:42 AM
It also is interesting that they're using a 4-head signal instead of the 5-head signal that I usually see for FYA.

A typical FYA display uses a 4-section display. New installations under MUTCD must follow this (except where the bi-modal green/FYA arrow option is used).

Back when agencies were examining feasibility of FYA operations, I believe some municipalities looked at retrofitting the old 5-section PPLT displays (doghouse or horizontal/vertical) so that the circular sections would be replaced by arrows (red arrow for red ball, yellow arrow for yellow ball, FYA for green ball)--in essentially an effort to save money by changing lights and lenses in the existing signal head instead of ordering a whole new signal head. In order to do this, however, the signal controller had to be compatible with FYA operations and the signal hardware had to support the flash mode as intended under FYA. I think for many agencies, it was easier to just replace the signal heads with standard FYA equipment.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 10, 2011, 10:48:37 PM
So looking through google street view, the five head signals weren't what I remembered. I remembered them as being:
RLA YLA FYLA YLA GLA

The ones I have the most experience with are from Texas. Street view shows them as having two red arrows. That is where I got the 5 head signals. I forgot that they double up reds on left turns. The 4 head signals are consistent with what I've seen in the past.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on June 21, 2011, 09:04:44 AM
As I mentioned elsewhere, Liberty, MO has FYA's in a 3 Lens set-up:

Red Arrow
Steady Yellow Arrow
Flashing Yellow Arrow/Steady Green Arrow (2 sets of LED's)

At first, I thought they only had FYA's without the green. The I got to examine a signal up close.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PAHighways on June 27, 2011, 11:19:02 PM
Looks like flashing yellow arrows won't be coming to Pennsylvania anytime soon:  http://www.mcall.com/news/local/warrior/mc-road-warrior-yellow-arrow-20110626,0,4579548.column.

QuoteThe June 16 USA Today story suggests the arrows rapidly are being adopted in some other states, but PennDOT spokesman Steve Chizmar said department officials are not pushing the Legislature to approve them here, at least not yet. "We see them in other states and they look promising," he said. "But with the other competing issues out there, this is not necessarily being pushed right now."
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 28, 2011, 04:22:47 AM
Sounds like PA has some misconception on what the actual use of the FYA arrow is. But then again, reading the article, I get the impression that PA isn't that familiar with arrow operations in general...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 28, 2011, 01:02:15 PM
Quote from: PAHighways on June 27, 2011, 11:19:02 PM
Looks like flashing yellow arrows won't be coming to Pennsylvania anytime soon:  http://www.mcall.com/news/local/warrior/mc-road-warrior-yellow-arrow-20110626,0,4579548.column.

Thank God.  There's a lot you can fault & bash PennDOT for over the years, but at least they're getting this right.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 28, 2011, 01:12:15 PM
It's pretty funny, we are in Florida visiting relatives, and so far all of them have griped about flashing yellow arrows and said that nobody knows what they mean (themselves included); what made their comments interesting to me is that 1) they all live in different parts of the state (Fort Myers, Pembroke Pines, and now we're in Viera) yet they all had the same gripe and 2) we haven't seen a single flashing yellow arrow the whole time we've been down here.

When I explained the point of the thing, they were all incredulous and wanted to know what's wrong with just making sure the other cars stop and why our system seems so focused on protecting against the dumbest of the dumb.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 28, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2011, 01:12:15 PM
It's pretty funny, we are in Florida visiting relatives, and so far all of them have griped about flashing yellow arrows and said that nobody knows what they mean (themselves included)

Does Florida not put up a sign? In Oklahoma, there is a sign next to each FYA that says "LEFT TURN YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC ON FLASHING (<-)"
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 28, 2011, 03:13:23 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Does Florida not put up a sign? In Oklahoma, there is a sign next to each FYA that says "LEFT TURN YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC ON FLASHING (<-)"

I think it was Oregon which has FYA with no sign.  maybe Idaho.  one of those states which I was in over Memorial Day.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 28, 2011, 03:51:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2011, 01:12:15 PM
It's pretty funny, we are in Florida visiting relatives, and so far all of them have griped about flashing yellow arrows and said that nobody knows what they mean (themselves included)

Does Florida not put up a sign? In Oklahoma, there is a sign next to each FYA that says "LEFT TURN YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC ON FLASHING (<-)"

I haven't seen a FYA installation here personally, but it's not like Florida to sign something like that. There are no "Left Turn Yield On Green (ball)" signs or "Left Turn Signal" signs or "Left On Green Arrow Only" signs here like there are in other states.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on June 28, 2011, 05:31:08 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on June 28, 2011, 01:12:15 PM
It's pretty funny, we are in Florida visiting relatives, and so far all of them have griped about flashing yellow arrows and said that nobody knows what they mean (themselves included)

Does Florida not put up a sign? In Oklahoma, there is a sign next to each FYA that says "LEFT TURN YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC ON FLASHING (<-)"

I don't know. As I said, I haven't seen one here. BUT my brother-in-law didn't know what it meant, and I was surprised because he's the type of person who knows these things AND because he's a fireman and usually knows all the rules. He felt the flashing yellow is redundant compared to the normal doghouse signal.

I've been observing this afternoon and haven't seen any "left turn yield on green circle" signs. That makes me assume there wouldn't be flashing yellow ones either, especially after the other comments above.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ian on June 28, 2011, 08:05:06 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't mind the FYA if it didn't mean the demise of the doghouse signal. The doghouse was my favorite and it's sad for me to see them go.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 03:33:18 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 28, 2011, 02:45:52 PM
Does Florida not put up a sign? In Oklahoma, there is a sign next to each FYA that says "LEFT TURN YIELD TO ONCOMING TRAFFIC ON FLASHING (<-)"

MUTCD required the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN [symbolic green ball]" sign with the doghouse or other 5-section head. MUTCD does not require a sign with an FYA display. However, many states have decided to implement some kind of sign with their FYA installations as a semi-explanatory device (similar to how "LEFT TURN ON GREEN ARROW ONLY" was often used when arrows were first put in, although similar signs are still used even though not needed). Nevada uses "YIELD ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW" with its FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 29, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 03:33:18 AM
MUTCD required the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN [symbolic green ball]" sign with the doghouse or other 5-section head. MUTCD does not require a sign with an FYA display. However, many states have decided to implement some kind of sign with their FYA installations as a semi-explanatory device

You'd think something as counter-intuitive as a FYA would require a sign explaining it's operation.  
Obviously, someone who lives in an area where these have become commonplace will no longer need it for themselves, but those from areas without them probably need some explanation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 29, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on June 28, 2011, 08:05:06 PM
To be honest, I wouldn't mind the FYA if it didn't mean the demise of the doghouse signal. The doghouse was my favorite and it's sad for me to see them go.
Honestly, if more states used the doghouse signal instead of having a separate left turn signal phase with the red ball signal the flashing yellow signal probably wouldn't have been concieved up because drivers would know to yield to oncoming traffic unless they have an arrow.  In upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare, so nobody assumes they can turn left without looking if they don't have an arrow.  Most of our signals with a left turn phase use arrows on the signal anyways.  The only red ball signal I can recall in the entire state (NY 590/Titus Ave) was replaced with a roundabout a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on June 29, 2011, 01:38:04 PM
QuoteI think it was Oregon which has FYA with no sign.  maybe Idaho.  one of those states which I was in over Memorial Day.

Both, I think. I don't recall ever seeing  FYA advisory sign anywhere, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 29, 2011, 04:16:34 PM
Hmmm..............Dean, have you ever been to Long Island? Lots of intersections on divided State highways here have protected-only left turns. Doghouses are common too, on undivided state roads.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 28, 2011, 03:13:23 PM
I think it was Oregon which has FYA with no sign.  maybe Idaho.

Quite possibly Oregon. They were an early adopter of the FYA during/after FHWA allowed experimentation. I believe one of the stipulations during the experimentation phase was that no sign be installed, so that researchers could really evaluate driver understanding of the operation without a sign telling drivers how to act.

Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 29, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
You'd think something as counter-intuitive as a FYA would require a sign explaining it's operation.  
Obviously, someone who lives in an area where these have become commonplace will no longer need it for themselves, but those from areas without them probably need some explanation.

The National research studies indicate the FYA is more intuitive than the old MUTCD 5-section display (doghouse, horizontal or vertical) and other methods of displaying PPLT operations, which is why FHWA adopted it as the standard PPLT display in the 2009 MUTCD. The research also indicated drivers understood the meaning fairly intuitively without the need for an explanatory sign...

Quote from: deanej on June 29, 2011, 12:25:17 PM
Honestly, if more states used the doghouse signal instead of having a separate left turn signal phase with the red ball signal the flashing yellow signal probably wouldn't have been concieved up because drivers would know to yield to oncoming traffic unless they have an arrow.  In upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare, so nobody assumes they can turn left without looking if they don't have an arrow.  Most of our signals with a left turn phase use arrows on the signal anyways.  The only red ball signal I can recall in the entire state (NY 590/Titus Ave) was replaced with a roundabout a couple of years ago.

Not exactly the point you're making here, as "red ball signal" is a phrase that can mean many things. However, if there is a proliferation of doghouse signals, that implies there is at least some use of protected left turn phasing, since the doghouse signal should be used for both protected and permitted turns--if there were no protected turns, there would be no need for a doghouse and a simple three-section head could be used instead...

In any event, one of the main concerns with the 5-section display is that drivers in a left turn lane seeing the circular green ball overhead during the permissive phase commonly mistake that indication as a signal to go, regardless of oncoming traffic--in other words, drivers would see only the green ball and not automatically assume they have to yield to oncoming traffic. A driver confused by the meaning of the 5-section signal quite often proceeds to cause an accident, a critical failure maneuver. In contrast, a driver confused by the FYA often hesitates to proceed, which is a safer failure scenario.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on June 29, 2011, 11:02:51 PM
QuoteQuite possibly Oregon. They were an early adopter of the FYA during/after FHWA allowed experimentation. I believe one of the stipulations during the experimentation phase was that no sign be installed, so that researchers could really evaluate driver understanding of the operation without a sign telling drivers how to act.

There definitely are intersections in Oregon without a sign. The first time I ever encountered an FYA was definitely somewhere on US-30 in Oregon back in 06 or 07 and I was like WTF is this and there was no sign saying what it was.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 30, 2011, 07:34:23 AM
Quote from: corco on June 29, 2011, 01:38:04 PM
QuoteI think it was Oregon which has FYA with no sign.  maybe Idaho.  one of those states which I was in over Memorial Day.

Both, I think. I don't recall ever seeing  FYA advisory sign anywhere, now that I think about it.

I can take a picture of the one Norman is using. I'll be out this morning and can swing by the nearest intersection that uses one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 30, 2011, 08:06:40 AM
Quote from: corco on June 29, 2011, 11:02:51 PM
QuoteQuite possibly Oregon. They were an early adopter of the FYA during/after FHWA allowed experimentation. I believe one of the stipulations during the experimentation phase was that no sign be installed, so that researchers could really evaluate driver understanding of the operation without a sign telling drivers how to act.

There definitely are intersections in Oregon without a sign. The first time I ever encountered an FYA was definitely somewhere on US-30 in Oregon back in 06 or 07 and I was like WTF is this and there was no sign saying what it was.

The one I know of that is in NC doesn't have a sign with it.  It's even in StreetView already:
http://maps.google.com/?ll=35.332584,-80.745993&spn=0.003269,0.006968&z=18&layer=c&cbll=35.332723,-80.74594&panoid=xr1uNcTw-cUfzTZrOADdzw&cbp=12,252.77,,1,-2.53
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 30, 2011, 12:23:00 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 29, 2011, 04:16:34 PM
Hmmm..............Dean, have you ever been to Long Island? Lots of intersections on divided State highways here have protected-only left turns. Doghouses are common too, on undivided state roads.
Since when was Long Island upstate?

To answer your question, the furthest south I've been in NY is West Point.  Downstate is so different that it might as well be a completely different state altogether.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on June 30, 2011, 01:56:11 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 30, 2011, 07:34:23 AM
I can take a picture of the one Norman is using. I'll be out this morning and can swing by the nearest intersection that uses one.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.denexa.com%2Froadgeek%2Froad-photos%2Fmain.php%3Fcmd%3Dimage%26amp%3Bvar1%3Dok%252Fcleveland%252FIMG_4533.JPG%26amp%3Bvar2%3D1000_85&hash=99827fde8e46b91144506cbbd6dd68ab063908a1)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 30, 2011, 04:22:03 PM
Dean, sorry if I misunderstood you. I assumed we were talking about NYS DOT in general. But you're right. downstate and Long Island, are a very different kind of region than much of upstate NY.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on June 30, 2011, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 28, 2011, 03:51:11 PMI haven't seen a FYA installation here personally, but it's not like Florida to sign something like that. There are no "Left Turn Yield On Green (ball)" signs or "Left Turn Signal" signs or "Left On Green Arrow Only" signs here like there are in other states.

The only FYA signal I've seen so far is on County Road 535 in Orlando/Windermere/Winter Garden, just north of the Magic Kingdom and near the intersection of 535 and Reams Rd. The signal went active maybe a month ago. There is a sign in the median that states something along the lines of "LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING ARROW".

Now since this part of 535 is a county road, Orange county probably handled the construction and configuration of this traffic signal, so the state of Florida's policy may not be to put a sign next to the FYA, but Orange County probably will. With all due respect, I think the people down here who have no idea where they are going would benefit from knowing what the signal means, but I highly doubt anyone would get their head out of their ass long enough to read the sign and follow its instructions.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 30, 2011, 05:21:59 PM
I'm surprised that any jurisdictions are posting signs saying to yield on FYA. First, because the whole purpose of the FYA concept was to eliminate the confusion that causes the need for such a sign. Second, I can't find any provision in the 2009 MUTCD even permitting such a sign. So it seems that any states or counties that do this are doing so on their own, outside the Manual.  But if anyone finds different, please correct me.

Also, contrary to what someone said in an earlier post, I don't believe the left turn yield on green ball sign is required when using a doghouse. It is optional and many places do not use it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on June 30, 2011, 06:04:42 PM
Heh, that's crazy! Yeah. I'm 92% sure I've never seen that sign before.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 30, 2011, 11:33:23 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 29, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
You'd think something as counter-intuitive as a FYA would require a sign explaining it's operation.  
Obviously, someone who lives in an area where these have become commonplace will no longer need it for themselves, but those from areas without them probably need some explanation.

The National research studies indicate the FYA is more intuitive than the old MUTCD 5-section display (doghouse, horizontal or vertical) and other methods of displaying PPLT operations, which is why FHWA adopted it as the standard PPLT display in the 2009 MUTCD. The research also indicated drivers understood the meaning fairly intuitively without the need for an explanatory sign...

In some ways that really amazes me, though the way a lot of people drive anyway, maybe it doesn't.
I'm not sure what all other states' drivers manuals include, but even the current PA (the online .pdf) one doesn't even mention a FYA (or I somehow missed it).  
While I obviously follow this stuff, and because of that, am now aware of what these things are...

If I hypothetically had never read anything about these, and encountered one for the first time WITHOUT a sign like posted above, my driver training (that flashing yellow = green, but with more caution; and an arrow meant I could turn without yielding to oncoming traffic) + logic would tell me to treat a FYA just like a green arrow, but to proceed with more caution... So I would definitely turn, even with oncoming traffic.  I suppose if I proceeded with more caution (since it would be flashing yellow instead of green) an accident might be avoided, or it wouldn't be as serious.

I suppose what really matters is that they get the job done without increasing accidents...  I just think they should all probably have signs like the one above for at least a couple of years to let potential unaware motorists know what the deal is.  And as a matter of opinion/preference, I'm still happy PA isn't using them for now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 01, 2011, 12:55:21 AM
Norman in particular has gone the education route on the FYA. They even put in a pamphlet with the water bill about six months back explaining what the FYA means, and the local paper has run articles on it. I don't see how the sign hurts; it reinforces the message and explains it to people from out of town who didn't see those.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 01, 2011, 03:56:22 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 30, 2011, 05:21:59 PM
I'm surprised that any jurisdictions are posting signs saying to yield on FYA. First, because the whole purpose of the FYA concept was to eliminate the confusion that causes the need for such a sign. Second, I can't find any provision in the 2009 MUTCD even permitting such a sign. So it seems that any states or counties that do this are doing so on their own, outside the Manual.  But if anyone finds different, please correct me.

Also, contrary to what someone said in an earlier post, I don't believe the left turn yield on green ball sign is required when using a doghouse. It is optional and many places do not use it.

No standard sign is called for the FYA operation. FYA signs fall into the category of "agencies may create word message signs for specific situations not covered by the manual" clause.  The FYA graphic on the sign in the picture Scott probably violates the MUTCD due to the symbol not being adopted by them (unless FHWA approved that through a state supplement, interpretation, or experimentation process)...but I like it.

As to the R10-12 left turn yield on green sign, I could've sworn that was a requirement. It's standard practice in Nevada, and I've never seen a 5-section signal display without the sign anywhere else I've been. Both the 2003 MUTCD Revision 2 and 2009 MUTCD list the sign as an option in chapter 2, and the 2009 version specifically states in chapter 4 that the sign is not required. The 2009 manual does show the R10-12 sign in a figure, however--some practicing engineers tend to take the MUTCD figures as gospel...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on July 04, 2011, 08:59:34 AM
QuoteIn upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare

In the rural areas, this is mostly the case.  But the Syracuse and Albany areas both have a large number of protected-only left turn signals.

Regarding signs with the FYA, here's what MnDOT uses (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/publ/mnstdsigns/R%20Series/R10-X12.pdf) (R10-X12).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PAHighways on July 04, 2011, 11:59:52 AM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 30, 2011, 11:33:23 PMI'm not sure what all other states' drivers manuals include, but even the current PA (the online .pdf) one doesn't even mention a FYA (or I somehow missed it).

Give them time.  They changed the entry for RAs from "although not used in Pennsylvania" when I was learning to drive to "although not common in Pennsylvania" in the recent editions.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 04, 2011, 12:45:19 PM
I just saw a flashing yellow in Nebraska.  I think it was Beatrice but didn't pay much attention exactly where.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on July 04, 2011, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: J N Winkler on July 04, 2011, 05:36:04 PM
Revive 755 has already previously noted that MoDOT has been installing flashing yellow arrows, but I can add some detail from a recent cull of MoDOT sign design sheets preparatory to archiving two years' worth of MoDOT construction plans.

MoDOT has been accompanying its FYA installations with a text-only sign reading "LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING ARROW."  The design is the same from one plans set to another, but is always presented as a "special" sign, which means that MoDOT has not added the design to its Standard Sign Detail Manual or a standard plan sheet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on July 04, 2011, 09:58:39 PM
Still waiting for Ohio to get onboard with red arrows, let alone flashing yellow.  In unincorporated areas on state-maintained roads around Cincinnati they've started a very aggressive signal replacement program.  They've gone from all yellow signals to all black with backplates and the reflective yellow tape framing the backplate.  I assume this is in conjunction with LED upgrades as well.  But seriously, the state is still installing protected-only lefts with red balls, and in some cases with no explanatory sign. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 05, 2011, 02:15:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2011, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.

Yup, it's fixed now, but that is NOT the sign Virginia uses. A quick search turned up a local news article (http://www.fox43tv.com/dpps/news/local/vdot-implements-flashing-yellow-signals_3408123) from when the signals were installed, that includes an image of a sign, but I don't recall this being the one I saw when I checked out the signals in person. Unfortunately I was attempting to do video, however, so I do not have photos.

EDIT: I think this is close to what VDOT used, though ground-mounted in the median:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armstrongforensic.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2FScreen-shot-2011-06-16-at-8.20.47-AM.png&hash=2f8d8687ca3fce4fa6893d6c8a10e39fab235b69)

And I might be crazy, but I really think that the arrow lacked a black circle and had little "flash" lines around it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on July 05, 2011, 07:53:05 AM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 05, 2011, 02:15:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2011, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.

Yup, it's fixed now, but that is NOT the sign Virginia uses. A quick search turned up a local news article (http://www.fox43tv.com/dpps/news/local/vdot-implements-flashing-yellow-signals_3408123) from when the signals were installed, that includes an image of a sign, but I don't recall this being the one I saw when I checked out the signals in person. Unfortunately I was attempting to do video, however, so I do not have photos.

EDIT: I think this is close to what VDOT used, though ground-mounted in the median:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armstrongforensic.com%2Fblog%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F06%2FScreen-shot-2011-06-16-at-8.20.47-AM.png&hash=2f8d8687ca3fce4fa6893d6c8a10e39fab235b69)

And I might be crazy, but I really think that the arrow lacked a black circle and had little "flash" lines around it.

It may vary depending on location. The City of Alexandria uses the one shown in the link below, which has both the black circle and the little "flash" lines. You'll find this one outside the Harris Teeter on Duke Street (there is an identical sign going the other direction). But those signs are put up by the city, not by VDOT. Off the top of my head I do not recall seeing any installed by VDOT in my routine driving, but I haven't been on many Virginia roads outside of Northern Virginia in the past couple of months.

Notice this sign doesn't say "flashing yellow." I think using that word would be more effective, perhaps coupled with the lines.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.811757,-77.112404&spn=0.006379,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.811702,-77.112392&panoid=50APsGjItaLfvzMXxWe_IA&cbp=12,52.87,,0,-5.73
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on July 05, 2011, 07:11:22 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 04, 2011, 08:59:34 AM
QuoteIn upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare

In the rural areas, this is mostly the case.  But the Syracuse and Albany areas both have a large number of protected-only left turn signals.

Regarding signs with the FYA, here's what MnDOT uses (http://www.dot.state.mn.us/trafficeng/publ/mnstdsigns/R%20Series/R10-X12.pdf) (R10-X12).
It's the case in the Rochester area as well (using doghouses and not fully protected turns).  But even with fully protected left turns, they use arrows rather than balls (the only ball type protected only left turn that I know of was removed), so there's no way a NY driver would interpret a ball as "I can turn left regardless of traffic").

I don't understand why fully protected left turns are used in many areas.  IMO, they should be outlawed unless an engineering study of the intersection shows they're required.  They typically just hold up traffic (including non-turning traffic due to the extra light phase) for no good reason.

Don't even get me started about the bad timing of the lights on NY 441 west of Penfield or NY 8 in Sidney.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on July 05, 2011, 07:14:52 PM
Quote from: deanej on July 05, 2011, 07:11:22 PM
I don't understand why fully protected left turns are used in many areas.  IMO, they should be outlawed unless an engineering study of the intersection shows they're required.  They typically just hold up traffic (including non-turning traffic due to the extra light phase) for no good reason.

Multiple turn lanes, poor visibility, high pedestrian volume, possibly protected opposing right turns.  There's a lot of scenarios where they make sense, even when it's not obvious.  Some places do go way overboard with it though, California for instance. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 05, 2011, 09:11:05 PM
"Protected only" is useful in areas with high traffic volumes, where left turns are especially dangerous. Even more true with signalized divided highways with 3 or more thru lanes in each direction. Check out NYS Routes 24 and 27 in Nassau County, Long Island or Hawthorne Blvd. in Torrance, Calif. which has 4 thru lanes in each direction on a signalized, divided boulevard.

Yes California does go overboard in some cases, notably in the San Francisco suburbs of San Mateo County. I think every signalized intersection I saw there had "protected only" left turns, even where traffic was not especially heavy and would not even have turn arrows in many other places.   
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on July 05, 2011, 09:23:09 PM
IMHO, protected only is stupid and wasteful in these times of high gas prices.  If you need to protect the left turn, adopt something sensible, IMHO, like the Michigan Left.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 05, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Brandon, a little closed minded are we? (chuckle!) BTW, what is a Michigan left?

Re: the signs for flashing yellow arrow. Besides that we shouldn't need them if the meaning is supposed to be intuitive, the one that I like best is the photo from Norman, Oklahoma, with the lines indicating the flashing.

Also, I tried Googling "flashing yellow arrow signs" and found several Youtube videos of new FYA systems in operation. Does anyone know why:  when it goes from green arrow to steady yellow arrow, it then goes to steady red arrow for a second or two, before going to FYA?  
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on July 05, 2011, 10:37:31 PM
SignBridge, as far as the light cycle, I think it goes from solid green, to solid yellow, to solid red, and then to flashing yellow to provide for clearance in preparation for opposing through traffic to get a green. If it went straight from solid green to flashing yellow, people making that left turn may not know to yield if opposing traffic hasn't gotten a chance to start moving through the intersection.

I'll have to park and see what the FYA intersection near my house does.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 05, 2011, 10:44:05 PM
Astare, you missed my point. My question was: why the brief steady-red arrow between the steady-yellow and FYA? I watched a few more of those videos and different installations operate differently. Some have that brief steady-red and some do not. It seems to me it should go from steady-yellow to FYA, not steady-yellow to steady-red, to FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on July 05, 2011, 10:54:14 PM
The only rationale I can come up with is to force the left turners in the intersection to clear the intersection and not allow any more into it so that the opposing traffic can be sure to go when it's green.

I realize this doesn't happen in doghouse signals, or five-head signals with a green and yellow arrow. But maybe with the novelty of the FYA and not a lot of people knowing what it means, having that one or two second red arrow to get them to stop, and then yield, may lead to fewer accidents.

Of course, it would make sense for a signal dedicated to a left turn lane to have a red phase after a solid yellow phase. That just goes with normal traffic light operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jjakucyk on July 05, 2011, 11:07:41 PM
I think AstareGod is probably right.  With doghouses or inline-5 signals, people keep turning well through the end of the yellow arrow, knowing that the next phase is going to be green balls.  That ignores the fact that for a brief moment they're turning left on a red ball with no other indicators, but the red ball was always there from the beginning, thus people probably figure, "so what?"  By making a 4-section FYA signal briefly turn red, rather than just being red but ignored while other things are going on, it's a better way to get turning vehicles to actually stop turning when they're supposed to.  I suspect it's also a case of proper sequencing, as there's no other situation where a signal would go from green to yellow to anything but red.  To go from green to yellow to flashing yellow would tend to miscue people, so including a short red is a way to sort of reset the signal phase, both literally and in people's minds too. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 05, 2011, 11:52:46 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on July 05, 2011, 07:53:05 AM
It may vary depending on location. The City of Alexandria uses the one shown in the link below, which has both the black circle and the little "flash" lines. You'll find this one outside the Harris Teeter on Duke Street (there is an identical sign going the other direction). But those signs are put up by the city, not by VDOT. Off the top of my head I do not recall seeing any installed by VDOT in my routine driving, but I haven't been on many Virginia roads outside of Northern Virginia in the past couple of months.

Notice this sign doesn't say "flashing yellow." I think using that word would be more effective, perhaps coupled with the lines.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.811757,-77.112404&spn=0.006379,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.811702,-77.112392&panoid=50APsGjItaLfvzMXxWe_IA&cbp=12,52.87,,0,-5.73

I'm sure it does vary, and likely the reason you haven't seen any is that the only VDOT-installed ones I know of are down here in Hampton Roads (US 60 WB around Busch Gardens). They might not have had the text "flashing yellow" either. I really need to get back up there and check them again.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: stormwatch7721 on July 06, 2011, 10:17:46 AM
I took a mini-trip to Ocean Isle Beach in North Carolina last night. NC has the 4-head flashing yellow arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 06, 2011, 04:03:43 PM
Re: my previous question about the brief steady-red between the steady-yellow arrow and the FYA. I asked about it on the Federal Hwy. Admin. website and got a good explanation from an engineer.

He explained that in some installations the FYA may not operate at all times, maybe only during less congested hours. So the steady-yellow is always followed by the steady-red, so drivers won't just assume that the FYA is coming next after the steady-yellow. During the non-FYA hours, it stays steady-red until the next steady-green arrow. But during FYA-hours, it then changes from steady-red to FYA.

It pays to go directly to the source. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on July 07, 2011, 10:17:16 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 06, 2011, 04:03:43 PM
Re: my previous question about the brief steady-red between the steady-yellow arrow and the FYA. I asked about it on the Federal Hwy. Admin. website and got a good explanation from an engineer.

He explained that in some installations the FYA may not operate at all times, maybe only during less congested hours. So the steady-yellow is always followed by the steady-red, so drivers won't just assume that the FYA is coming next after the steady-yellow. During the non-FYA hours, it stays steady-red until the next steady-green arrow. But during FYA-hours, it then changes from steady-red to FYA.

It pays to go directly to the source. 

Plus it's becoming pretty common for a red clearance interval to be set between a left-turn phase and the opposing green regardless of the nature of left-turn operation. The instances where a steady yellow changes immediately to flashing yellow would be where the red clearance interval is set to 0 seconds.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 12, 2011, 04:38:46 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 05, 2011, 10:11:06 PM
Does anyone know why:  when it goes from green arrow to steady yellow arrow, it then goes to steady red arrow for a second or two, before going to FYA?  

There's been a few responses to this, which make some good sense. I think one of the more plausible answers comes in the changing mode response, where the FYA may not always show due to operating in protected mode only--so that drivers do not just assume an automatic transition from steady yellow arrow to FYA.

Another possible explanation may come from the signal controller software. A FYA display operating in protected-permitted mode essentially overlaps two separate signal phases: the subject left turn (protected phase) and the opposing green. The steady arrow (green-yellow-red) sequence follows the protected left turn. There is often a 1-2 second red clearance on the left turn phase before the opposing through gets the green. Once the opposing through gets the green, the FYA begins (permitted phase) and overlaps precisely with those signals. I think rawmustard is probably correct in that eliminating that short red arrow can only be achieved by using a 0-second red clearance on the protected left phase--the trend/guidance/rule of thumb seems to be moving toward having at least some red clearance on all signal phases.


EDIT: It's worth noting that, at least in my cursory glance, the MUTCD appears to be silent on what signal indications must be followed by an FYA...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andytom on July 12, 2011, 05:49:52 PM
In OR, it's written into law that way.  A steady yellow signal is shown when a current level of ROW is being terminated and changed to a lesser degree of ROW, to be immediately followed by a steady red signal.  You see FYA change to steady green arrow all the time around here but never the reverse.  It always goes through steady yellow and steady red when going from steady green to flashing yellow (a lesser degree of ROW).

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 14, 2011, 12:04:03 PM
Biked through downtown Norfolk this morning, and when I was turning off of Brambleton to go park, I had to wait for a light rail train, and noticed that after it passed and the lit no right turn sign went out, the right turn signal changed to a flashing yellow arrow! First time I'd seen one used for a right turn. While a green would suffice here as there is no one you're yielding to as long as there isn't a train and the light is red when trains are crossing, I guess a FYA helps to remind people they are crossing a light rail line.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 14, 2011, 09:25:59 PM
^ The issue of a flashing yellow right arrow was discussed in the "Flashing Yellow Arrow Right Turn Signal" (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4852.0) thread a few weeks ago. The right FYA in this case is not so much as to remind about crossing a rail line as much as it would be in regards to it being a dedicated signal head for a dedicated lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on July 25, 2011, 02:10:32 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 05, 2011, 10:37:31 PMI'll have to park and see what the FYA intersection near my house does.

The intersection I'm talking about is near the intersection of CR 535 and Reams Rd just north of the Magic Kingdom near Orlando, FL. A new FYA went up a few months ago.

I drove up CR 535 on my way to Winter Garden today and noticed what happened after a green arrow. The signal turned solid yellow, red, then began flashing yellow. The thru lanes in the same direction (northbound) remained green the entire time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on January 10, 2012, 04:39:11 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits. Is it correct that, in the case of a lead-lag trap, the flashing yellow left will remain on after the straight lanes receive red balls, and only turn to a yellow and then red left when the cross street is about to get a green?

Does this also apply to the other direction? Will the flashing yellow left come on in the lagging direction when the phase begins and the straight lanes still have red balls? Or is the permissive left time only extended in the leading direction (because of the trap)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on January 10, 2012, 08:45:17 AM
Quote from: NE2 on January 10, 2012, 04:39:11 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits. Is it correct that, in the case of a lead-lag trap, the flashing yellow left will remain on after the straight lanes receive red balls, and only turn to a yellow and then red left when the cross street is about to get a green?

Does this also apply to the other direction? Will the flashing yellow left come on in the lagging direction when the phase begins and the straight lanes still have red balls? Or is the permissive left time only extended in the leading direction (because of the trap)?

Yes on both. It allows a permissive left to be controlled independently from the straight lanes. If you google "Dallas phasing" you'll find a lot of good info. Dallas originally used shielded green balls - so the straight lanes couldn't see the turn lane's green ball - but the concept is the same.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on January 10, 2012, 11:45:14 AM
Fayetteville, AR recently added a signal that's FYA with no green phase. Oncoming EB traffic has steady green and steady green arrow, but no FYA,  WB has steady green or FYA, but no green arrow.

Here's a street view of before it was added http://g.co/maps/ngqwk
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on January 10, 2012, 01:58:44 PM
I just saw my first FYA on Christmas Day.  This was in Big Lake, Minnesota, at the intersection of MN-25 & US-10.  The funny thing was that the traffic at that intersection was fairly light; maybe it's heavier at other times.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on January 10, 2012, 06:53:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 10, 2012, 01:58:44 PM
I just saw my first FYA on Christmas Day.  This was in Big Lake, Minnesota, at the intersection of MN-25 & US-10.  The funny thing was that the traffic at that intersection was fairly light; maybe it's heavier at other times.

There's quite a few FYA signals closer to where you live... We have several in Lawrence, JoCo, KCK, and KCMO. (Not sure if topeka has any yet, though)

Incedentally, although Lawrence was one of the first cities (if not *the* first) in Kansas to utilize the FYA, they do not use red arrows on most protected-only signals, whereas Topeka and Kansas City have adopted red arrows on most, if not all, protected-only left turn signals. The only red arrow that I know of that is not associated with a FYA signal in Lawrence is at 6th and Massachusetts (where US 40/59 takes a left turn to go across the Kansas River)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on January 10, 2012, 07:52:28 PM
Yeah, I pretty much just drive around Wichita and on long-distance trips anymore.  For example, I've lived in Kansas for a total of thirteen years, and I don't think I've ever gotten off the interstate in Topeka.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 11, 2012, 04:48:58 AM
Quote from: NE2 on January 10, 2012, 04:39:11 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits. Is it correct that, in the case of a lead-lag trap, the flashing yellow left will remain on after the straight lanes receive red balls, and only turn to a yellow and then red left when the cross street is about to get a green?

Does this also apply to the other direction? Will the flashing yellow left come on in the lagging direction when the phase begins and the straight lanes still have red balls? Or is the permissive left time only extended in the leading direction (because of the trap)?

Typically yes on both accounts, when the signal is in permissive or protected/permitted mode. If you are familiar with "Dallas Phasing", the operation is essentially the same, just using a flashing yellow arrow instead of a louvered/shielded circular green. Somewhere earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a video I made illustrating the difference between a standard doghouse, "Dallas Phasing" doghouse and FYA signal in lead-lag PPLT operation.

An easier way to think of it: The flashing yellow left arrow displays concurrently with the circular green indication for the opposing thru. So, if the southbound thru vehicles have a green signal, northbound left turn vehicles simultaneously see a flashing yellow arrow.


The major benefit is the better driver understanding of the PPLT display's intent, proven through various studies. The side effect and major operational benefit is having a 4-section PPLT display that eliminates the lead-lag yellow trap, instead of the old 5-section display where eliminating the yellow trap required shielding/louvers in the circular sections of the signal head and special controller programming in order to effectively work and not confuse motorists.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: The High Plains Traveler on January 11, 2012, 06:46:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 11, 2012, 04:48:58 AM
Quote from: NE2 on January 10, 2012, 04:39:11 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the benefits. Is it correct that, in the case of a lead-lag trap, the flashing yellow left will remain on after the straight lanes receive red balls, and only turn to a yellow and then red left when the cross street is about to get a green?

Does this also apply to the other direction? Will the flashing yellow left come on in the lagging direction when the phase begins and the straight lanes still have red balls? Or is the permissive left time only extended in the leading direction (because of the trap)?

Typically yes on both accounts, when the signal is in permissive or protected/permitted mode. If you are familiar with "Dallas Phasing", the operation is essentially the same, just using a flashing yellow arrow instead of a louvered/shielded circular green. Somewhere earlier in this thread, I posted a link to a video I made illustrating the difference between a standard doghouse, "Dallas Phasing" doghouse and FYA signal in lead-lag PPLT operation.

An easier way to think of it: The flashing yellow left arrow displays concurrently with the circular green indication for the opposing thru. So, if the southbound thru vehicles have a green signal, northbound left turn vehicles simultaneously see a flashing yellow arrow.


The major benefit is the better driver understanding of the PPLT display's intent, proven through various studies. The side effect and major operational benefit is having a 4-section PPLT display that eliminates the lead-lag yellow trap, instead of the old 5-section display where eliminating the yellow trap required shielding/louvers in the circular sections of the signal head and special controller programming in order to effectively work and not confuse motorists.
I'm still trying to understand how Dallas phasing with the shielded green balls for the left turn lane would not cause confusion for through traffic, especially with a relatively narrow median and during nighttime when shielding wouldn't be as effective. The FYA cannot reasonably be taken as authorization for through traffic to move, unlike a left turn lane signal head that is not fully shielded. And, the better the shielding the less visible it is in the lane for which it is intended. OK, I understand it has been used in some areas (possibly Dallas?), but I think the FYA is a clearer indication of the movements that are allowed. I have seen no negative feedback in local press from the implementation of FYA (and one case of FRA) in this area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 12, 2012, 06:20:51 AM
Quote from: The High Plains Traveler on January 11, 2012, 06:46:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 11, 2012, 04:48:58 AM
The major benefit is the better driver understanding of the PPLT display's intent, proven through various studies. The side effect and major operational benefit is having a 4-section PPLT display that eliminates the lead-lag yellow trap, instead of the old 5-section display where eliminating the yellow trap required shielding/louvers in the circular sections of the signal head and special controller programming in order to effectively work and not confuse motorists.
I'm still trying to understand how Dallas phasing with the shielded green balls for the left turn lane would not cause confusion for through traffic, especially with a relatively narrow median and during nighttime when shielding wouldn't be as effective. The FYA cannot reasonably be taken as authorization for through traffic to move, unlike a left turn lane signal head that is not fully shielded. And, the better the shielding the less visible it is in the lane for which it is intended. OK, I understand it has been used in some areas (possibly Dallas?), but I think the FYA is a clearer indication of the movements that are allowed. I have seen no negative feedback in local press from the implementation of FYA (and one case of FRA) in this area.

One note with Dallas Phasing is that the 5-section display is always a separate display located over the left lane controlling turning traffic only, not a shared signal over the lane line meant to be seen by left and thru traffic. Thus, if the signal head has good shielding (properly aligned louvers or a programmable visibility head), the circular green indications in the 5-section head would not be visible to motorists in the thru lanes. No shielding is 100% effective, but the vast majority of thru drivers paying attention to thru signal heads shouldn't be distracted by a properly shielded signal in the left lane.

The FYA signal head display is indeed a clearer indication of the allowable movements, and that is in large part due to the all arrow design. While adopting the FYA, the 2009 MUTCD also adopted a new standard that prohibits the use of circular indications ("balls") in any signal head located exclusively over a left turn lane--effectively mandating the use of all-arrow signal heads for protected left turns and ending usage of peculiarities like the lighted "left" sign for turns in certain areas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on February 29, 2012, 10:51:03 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on March 06, 2011, 12:55:22 PM
Quote from: tchafe1978 on December 22, 2010, 10:44:11 AM
WisDOT pointing to benefits of new flashing yellow turn arrows in Milwaukee County

http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/opencms/export/nr/modules/news/news_2458.html_786229440.html

I guess Wisconsin is getting on the bandwagon now. I still have yet to see one of these in operation. I hadn't even heard of them until reading this thread. Guess I better get up to speed.

There is now one of these at the US 41/WI 26 interchange in Oshkosh.

Mike

Madison has a handful as well.

WisDOT now has a website devoted to them: http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/flashing-yellow.htm (http://www.dot.wisconsin.gov/travel/flashing-yellow.htm) complete with a brochure pdf and a flash animation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: twinsfan87 on February 29, 2012, 11:18:09 PM
Madison also has a 3-section FYA signal at University Ave and Ridge St which operates as permissive only (ie, the head is Red Arrow, Solid Yellow Arrow, Flashing Yellow Arrow). The recently released plans for the final leg of the University Ave reconstruction between Segoe Rd and Allen Blvd includes quite a few FYA signals as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on March 01, 2012, 12:33:53 AM
Yes, I believe the one on University was the second installation for the city of Madison.  It was installed during/just prior to that corridor's rehab project.  The first installation is at the Anderson St/Hoffman St intersection by the MATC Truax Campus.  There is another one that was installed within the past year on Sheboygan Ave, next to the Hill Farms Transportation Bldg.  It was installed as part of the Target store construction at Hilldale. 

The city of Monona also installed one along Broadway at the intersection with Copps Ave.

WisDOT also recently converted its signals at Wis 51 (Stoughton Rd) at Kinsman Blvd to 4-section FYA's.  Despite WisDOT depicting permissive-only FYA signals, I doubt we will see many/any on the state system, with its reduced phasing capabilities when compared to protected/permissive FYA's.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: brownpelican on March 09, 2012, 12:04:24 AM
They have made it to Louisiana. I spotted several of these signals along Ambassador Caffery Parkway in Lafayette this past weekend.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on March 09, 2012, 08:17:15 AM
There is a third one in Blacksburg on Main St(US 460 Business) at Roanoke St in the middle of downtown.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: florida on March 19, 2012, 02:30:33 AM
Quote from: Ace10 on June 30, 2011, 04:46:06 PM
Quote from: realjd on June 28, 2011, 03:51:11 PMI haven't seen a FYA installation here personally, but it's not like Florida to sign something like that. There are no "Left Turn Yield On Green (ball)" signs or "Left Turn Signal" signs or "Left On Green Arrow Only" signs here like there are in other states.

The only FYA signal I've seen so far is on County Road 535 in Orlando/Windermere/Winter Garden, just north of the Magic Kingdom and near the intersection of 535 and Reams Rd. The signal went active maybe a month ago. There is a sign in the median that states something along the lines of "LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING ARROW".

Now since this part of 535 is a county road, Orange county probably handled the construction and configuration of this traffic signal, so the state of Florida's policy may not be to put a sign next to the FYA, but Orange County probably will. With all due respect, I think the people down here who have no idea where they are going would benefit from knowing what the signal means, but I highly doubt anyone would get their head out of their ass long enough to read the sign and follow its instructions.

I have seen the "Left Turn Yield on Green [ball]" signs at intersections in the past. Swear they've been used in the Daytona Beach area.

FYAs have only appeared at new signal intersections like SR 436 and Orange Ave in Forest City and on US 17/92 and Church St in Longwood. Gainesville recently got them when the CR 329 portion of Main Street was redesigned, near the post office; they're a horizontal four-ball signal with two other three-ball signals for a total of three signals in each direction for a two-lane road.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on April 03, 2012, 09:50:47 PM
CR 535 has one at a new signal just north of Reams Road.  This would be between Winter Garden and Lake Buena Vista in Orange County, FL.  It is NB and there is even a sign to let motorists know that when the light is flashing, motorists have to yield before making a left turn to cross the SB lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: bulkyorled on April 10, 2012, 11:10:56 PM
Pasadena, CA has a couple up Arroyo Pkwy but that seems to be the one and only street I've ever seen with them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on June 25, 2012, 01:39:29 AM
A few of the newer intersections in Bend have them, like most of the ones on 27th st, and a few on the north end of 3rd. They're really nice, although they are a few intersections that really need them and don't have them :/ Like Olney and 3rd, Olney has them, but turning left from 3rd onto Olney doesn't have them, and whenever I do that there's always a good 10+ second window where there is no cross traffic, but it's red and I can't turn and have to wait all the way for the next cycle. That would be fine, except they recently replaced the signals on that intersection to add the flashing yellow on Olney, but didn't put them on 3rd. Also Greenwood and Wall in downtown should have them, and that light is poorly timed during non peek times, so turning left from Greenwood onto Wall you can be sitting there for 30-45 seconds and that whole time there is a green for the straight traffic and NO cross traffic. Most of the time that area is congested though, but at non peek hours, it doesn't work well. Just minor annoyances though, I shouldn't complain :P
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: blawp on June 25, 2012, 02:04:42 AM
Pasadena just installed a new one at Los Robles and Union.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on June 25, 2012, 03:12:38 PM
It's made it to Arizona. Scattered around the Phoenix area. Saw a few in Tucson years ago. Of course, Tucson goes overboard (in my opinion) with flashing yellow arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 25, 2012, 03:19:05 PM
Quote from: bulkyorled on April 10, 2012, 11:10:56 PM
Pasadena, CA has a couple up Arroyo Pkwy but that seems to be the one and only street I've ever seen with them.

I just spotted a couple on Magnolia Ave in El Cajon. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Zmapper on June 26, 2012, 04:31:56 AM
A little pet peeve of mine is with the FYA and the walk signal. If I push the walk button and start crossing the street with the white pedestrian lit up, the traffic signal will still display a flashing yellow arrow, directing traffic right into my path. What should happen instead is the FYA should change to red if I press the walk button, because traffic isn't allowed to turn while a pedestrian is in the crosswalk anyway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on June 26, 2012, 04:48:17 AM
Traffic isn't allowed to turn while opposing traffic is going either. The FYA means that you can turn if no conflicting movements are present - be those movements opposing vehicles or pedestrians. It's certainly possible to have a walk signal, actuated by a pedestrian, with no pedestrians crossing - he may have already completed the crossing, or gotten impatient with a ridiculously long wait and crossed anyway when safe (and perhaps even legal, if he crosses outside the crosswalk and the next intersection has no light).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: bulkyorled on June 26, 2012, 10:00:23 AM
They're seemingly useless in Pasadena in my opinion. The only time I notice that it flashes yellow is at night when no one is out anyways. Why not just add a 5 light signal and screw the flashing yellow.
I think at least the one on Arroyo Pkwy & California Bl, will turn from flashing yellow to green right away when you touch the sensor, also making it a little useless.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 26, 2012, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: NE2 on June 26, 2012, 04:48:17 AM
Traffic isn't allowed to turn while opposing traffic is going either. The FYA means that you can turn if no conflicting movements are present - be those movements opposing vehicles or pedestrians. It's certainly possible to have a walk signal, actuated by a pedestrian, with no pedestrians crossing - he may have already completed the crossing, or gotten impatient with a ridiculously long wait and crossed anyway when safe (and perhaps even legal, if he crosses outside the crosswalk and the next intersection has no light).

Also, a solid green ball on a simple three-lamp stoplight means traffic is permitted to turn left in the same way.  When I push the WALK button, I don't expect parallel traffic to get a red light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: bulkyorled on June 27, 2012, 05:37:03 AM
It's basically a yield light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Takumi on July 14, 2012, 12:00:05 PM
I spotted a pair this morning at the western intersection of VA 10 and US 258 in Smithfield.

Edit: Several were on NC 168, and the US 460/258 junction in Windsor, VA has a full set as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on July 15, 2012, 08:41:05 PM
Quote from: Takumi on July 14, 2012, 12:00:05 PM
I spotted a pair this morning at the western intersection of VA 10 and US 258 in Smithfield.

Edit: Several were on NC 168, and the US 460/258 junction in Windsor, VA has a full set as well.

Damn, those have all been installed in the past year. Before I moved the only ones VDOT had put up were on US 60 east of Williamsburg.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on July 15, 2012, 10:29:18 PM
They are multiplying here (Ft Smith, AR).

City just upgraded 4 more intersections about a week ago, all on the south end of town.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on July 15, 2012, 11:36:34 PM
Still haven't seen any here in the Pittsburgh area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jemacedo9 on August 27, 2012, 07:47:55 PM
New flashing yellow arrow in Western NY:  https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/news/press-releases/2012/2012-08-27 (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/page/portal/news/press-releases/2012/2012-08-27)

This is a pretty bad intersection during the rush hours, as people are usually in a hurry to make the turn.  I'm gonna be curious to see if a flashing yellow really triggers people to be more patient vs a dark signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 27, 2012, 08:45:53 PM
Well, good for NYSDOT. I figured they would just cheap out and keep using traditional doghouses or side-by-side's  mounted over the line separating the left-turn lane and the thru lane. Known as "shared signal faces for protected/permissive turns". The Manual does allow that option. Here on Long Island I'm still waiting to see if/when Nassau County DPW starts installing flashing arrrows, but I have the same cynicism about them as I do NYSDOT.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on August 27, 2012, 10:04:30 PM
IMO doghouses are better.  I HATE dedicated left turn signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 27, 2012, 10:09:51 PM
Why Deanej?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 27, 2012, 10:45:53 PM
There's been a lot of press lately about the FYA in SE Michigan ever since Oakland County executive L. Brooks Patterson was involved in a rather serious accident at one:



Frank Beckmann talked about the incident with MDOT director Kirk Steudle that can be found here:
http://www.wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=34613&ID=2512143 (http://www.wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=34613&ID=2512143)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brian556 on August 27, 2012, 10:47:11 PM
Here is a situation where the flashing yellow arrow could be very helpful-but could it be used here?
This is Dallas Dr/Bell Av @ Eagle Dr in Denton Tx. The right 2 lanes are free-flow with no signals. The left turn movement used to be protected only, with two three-light heads w/ green arrows. It now has a protected and permissive phases. The issue here is that the permissive phase could be confused for protected since the signals control only the left-turn lane. I could see how this could confuse people even with the signs. However, I don't know if the flashing yellow arrow could be used here. The use of green balls w/green arrow is an issue since the thru movement is not signalized. This situation, while it sort of already exists, would be an issue since the flashing yellow arrow would need to be displayed wirth a green ball?
This is a very interesting situation to debate from an engineering perspective.

Current setup
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F82312038.jpg&hash=3987a91bf8432bfde7cf18b79f270bfa4bfc81c3)

Previous setup, from a different angle:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2Fapr508006.jpg&hash=3b773cf6c951929c1d8c60104c7d625c8c68ca20)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cpzilliacus on August 27, 2012, 10:52:34 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 15, 2012, 08:41:05 PM
Quote from: Takumi on July 14, 2012, 12:00:05 PM
I spotted a pair this morning at the western intersection of VA 10 and US 258 in Smithfield.

Edit: Several were on NC 168, and the US 460/258 junction in Windsor, VA has a full set as well.

Damn, those have all been installed in the past year. Before I moved the only ones VDOT had put up were on US 60 east of Williamsburg.

I just yesterday saw the first one I've ever seen with my own eyes in Virginia - the intersection of Va. 9 (Charles Town Pike) and Va. 287 (Berlin Turnpike) east of Hillsboro in Loudoun County.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on August 27, 2012, 11:57:04 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on August 27, 2012, 10:47:11 PM
Here is a situation where the flashing yellow arrow could be very helpful-but could it be used here?
This is Dallas Dr/Bell Av @ Eagle Dr in Denton Tx. The right 2 lanes are free-flow with no signals. The left turn movement used to be protected only, with two three-light heads w/ green arrows. It now has a protected and permissive phases. The issue here is that the permissive phase could be confused for protected since the signals control only the left-turn lane. I could see how this could confuse people even with the signs. However, I don't know if the flashing yellow arrow could be used here. The use of green balls w/green arrow is an issue since the thru movement is not signalized. This situation, while it sort of already exists, would be an issue since the flashing yellow arrow would need to be displayed wirth a green ball?
This is a very interesting situation to debate from an engineering perspective.

A Flashing yellow arrow does not need to be tied to a circular green indication. In fact, when the FYA was introduced here in Kansas, the so-called "Dallas Phasing" where left-turning traffic opposite a protected left turn is given a permitted left turn, also began to be utilized.

At this particular intersection... Single-aspect signals on the through lanes with a green straight-through arrow would be advisable. Also, since there's only one left-turn lane, two left turn signals may be overkill.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brian556 on August 28, 2012, 12:13:07 AM
QuoteAt this particular intersection... Single-aspect signals on the through lanes with a green straight-through arrow would be advisable. Also, since there's only one left-turn lane, two left turn signals may be overkill.

I noticed that all intersections similar to this in Orlando had the single-indication green arrows. As for the two left-turn signals, the MUTCD requires a minimum of two signal heads per approach.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on August 28, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2012, 10:09:51 PM
Why Deanej?
What's the point of them?  They shouldn't be used in normal circumstances; left turning traffic shouldn't be forced to sit, twiddling their thumbs, even when it would be safe to make their turn just because someone decided to put in a dedicated left signal instead of a doghouse.  And if a flashing yellow signal is put in timed like a doghouse, it becomes pointless, as the existing rule (yield to oncoming traffic unless you have an arrow) is more than sufficient; the only difference is that it weeds out the people who are too stupid to drive safely.

The solution is not making it easier for dumb people to drive; it's to get them off the road entirely.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on August 28, 2012, 12:35:35 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on August 28, 2012, 12:13:07 AM
I noticed that all intersections similar to this in Orlando had the single-indication green arrows. As for the two left-turn signals, the MUTCD requires a minimum of two signal heads per approach.

The single-indication green arrows would accommodate the MUTCD requirements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on August 28, 2012, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 28, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
And if a flashing yellow signal is put in timed like a doghouse, it becomes pointless, as the existing rule (yield to oncoming traffic unless you have an arrow) is more than sufficient; the only difference is that it weeds out the people who are too stupid to drive safely.
A flashing yellow can be on next to a red ball.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on August 28, 2012, 01:58:56 PM
Unrelated, and may have already been posted, but I discovered that NH 125 is full of FYAs in the center part of its route (mostly north of NH 101).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: myosh_tino on August 28, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 28, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
What's the point of them?  They shouldn't be used in normal circumstances; left turning traffic shouldn't be forced to sit, twiddling their thumbs, even when it would be safe to make their turn just because someone decided to put in a dedicated left signal instead of a doghouse.  And if a flashing yellow signal is put in timed like a doghouse, it becomes pointless, as the existing rule (yield to oncoming traffic unless you have an arrow) is more than sufficient; the only difference is that it weeds out the people who are too stupid to drive safely.

The solution is not making it easier for dumb people to drive; it's to get them off the road entirely.
If you're referring to protected lefts, then I completely disagree.  In California protected lefts are the norm (some say we're the home of the protected lefts) and I find it far safer than permissive lefts because it eliminates the possibility of some yahoo turning left in front of you thinking "I think I can make this turn ... *crash* ... I shouldn't have made the turn".  While the driver making the left in the situation above could be considered "too stupid to drive safely", you have to take into account the safety of other motorists.

I have absolutely no problem waiting for a green arrow to make a left turn because in California, most signals are set up as "on demand" with sensor loops in the pavement.  In this mode, the wait time could be as little as 5 seconds.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on August 28, 2012, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 28, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
I have absolutely no problem waiting for a green arrow to make a left turn because in California, most signals are set up as "on demand" with sensor loops in the pavement.  In this mode, the wait time could be as little as 5 seconds.
Outside of NY 332, there are NO signals in NY that operate on-demand (that I know of) during the day.  Many stay on timers even in the middle of the night.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: myosh_tino on August 28, 2012, 06:08:06 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 28, 2012, 03:51:22 PM
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 28, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
I have absolutely no problem waiting for a green arrow to make a left turn because in California, most signals are set up as "on demand" with sensor loops in the pavement.  In this mode, the wait time could be as little as 5 seconds.
Outside of NY 332, there are NO signals in NY that operate on-demand (that I know of) during the day.  Many stay on timers even in the middle of the night.
Ah, that makes sense.  If signals are only on timers, then I can see the frustration with having to wait for a green arrow to make left turns.  Is there any reason (besides the cost of retrofitting signals) that on-demand is not more prevalent in other states like New York?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 28, 2012, 07:14:57 PM
Quote from: NE2 on August 28, 2012, 12:53:08 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 28, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
And if a flashing yellow signal is put in timed like a doghouse, it becomes pointless, as the existing rule (yield to oncoming traffic unless you have an arrow) is more than sufficient; the only difference is that it weeds out the people who are too stupid to drive safely.
A flashing yellow can be on next to a red ball.

In Moore, Oklahoma, a green ball can be on next to a red ball. :spin:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 28, 2012, 08:33:52 PM
I believe New York State DOT has many more "actuated" and "semi-actuated" signals than Deanej realizes. At least on Long Island the major state roads have them. Gotta look carefully for those detector loops in the pavement to know they exist.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on August 28, 2012, 08:37:40 PM
FYA's are multiplying like rabbits here (Ft Smith). At least Five intersections with 5-signal Lefts have been replaced with FYA's just this Summer. The city is also replacing some existing signals with all-new poles and signals. I've yet to find anyone in the street department to say why some intersections need new poles.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on August 28, 2012, 10:30:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 28, 2012, 08:33:52 PM
I believe New York State DOT has many more "actuated" and "semi-actuated" signals than Deanej realizes. At least on Long Island the major state roads have them. Gotta look carefully for those detector loops in the pavement to know they exist.
Just because they have them doesn't mean they always use them; most signals with the system (upstate at least) only use them at night.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 02, 2012, 03:31:56 PM
Quote from: deanej on August 28, 2012, 10:53:29 AM
What's the point of them?  They shouldn't be used in normal circumstances; left turning traffic shouldn't be forced to sit, twiddling their thumbs, even when it would be safe to make their turn just because someone decided to put in a dedicated left signal instead of a doghouse.  And if a flashing yellow signal is put in timed like a doghouse, it becomes pointless, as the existing rule (yield to oncoming traffic unless you have an arrow) is more than sufficient; the only difference is that it weeds out the people who are too stupid to drive safely.

The solution is not making it easier for dumb people to drive; it's to get them off the road entirely.

An important distinction should be drawn between a "dedicated left" signal and the type of turn mode being used. A dedicated left signal is any signal head meant specifically to control the traffic in left turn lanes. This can be a protected display, a normal circular indication display (prior to 2009 MUTCD), a 5-section "doghouse" or similar (also prior to 2009 MUTCD), or an FYA--any of these mounted over the left turn lane (not on the lane line) is a dedicated left turn signal.

The FYA replacing a 5-section display isn't pointless. The all-arrow display of the FYA can work exactly the same as the 5-section head, but with the benefit of being an all-arrow display that isn't as easily misunderstood.

I agree that we shouldn't be letting less-competent drivers on the road should, but using a signal display that is more intuitive and less easily misunderstood helps all drivers, not just the dumb ones.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 02, 2012, 03:41:22 PM
Quote from: Brian556 on August 27, 2012, 10:47:11 PM
Here is a situation where the flashing yellow arrow could be very helpful-but could it be used here?
This is Dallas Dr/Bell Av @ Eagle Dr in Denton Tx. The right 2 lanes are free-flow with no signals. The left turn movement used to be protected only, with two three-light heads w/ green arrows. It now has a protected and permissive phases. The issue here is that the permissive phase could be confused for protected since the signals control only the left-turn lane. I could see how this could confuse people even with the signs. However, I don't know if the flashing yellow arrow could be used here. The use of green balls w/green arrow is an issue since the thru movement is not signalized. This situation, while it sort of already exists, would be an issue since the flashing yellow arrow would need to be displayed wirth a green ball?
This is a very interesting situation to debate from an engineering perspective.

Current setup
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F82312038.jpg&hash=3987a91bf8432bfde7cf18b79f270bfa4bfc81c3)

An FYA could easily be used here. The flashing arrow is generally displayed with the opposing circular green, so there's no issue with that. The issue I see is the left turn lane being the only signalized approach, but the signal heads used don't really match up with a typical use in practice. I would mount one FYA signal above the left turn lane and use another FYA as a far left pole-mount. This removes the normal circular green from the equation and provides proper signal redundancy in case of indication failure in one display. The through lanes could have single-section green through arrows, but that's not entirely necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Central Avenue on September 03, 2012, 05:06:32 AM
I never really understood the "we shouldn't accommodation stupid drivers" argument. I mean, there are stupid drivers out there, and there pretty much always will be, so if making things easier for them to understand makes them less likely to hit me I would consider that a good thing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 03, 2012, 11:38:16 AM
If we revoked their licenses, they'd also be a lot less likely to hit you.

But I don't see what is unintuitive about a doghouse.  If there's an arrow, you have the ROW to turn, if there isn't, it behaves as if there was no specific left turn signal.  Simple.  A flashing yellow is actually less intuitive because you have to know what the flashing yellow means.  You don't need to know anything to understand a doghouse, especially in states that only use two through signals + 1 turn signal (in the rare event of a fully protected left) regardless of the number of travel lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on September 03, 2012, 11:55:51 AM
These have started appearing throughout Blacksburg now instead of just the Virginia Tech Campus.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Central Avenue on September 03, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 03, 2012, 11:38:16 AM
If we revoked their licenses, they'd also be a lot less likely to hit you.

But how do you know whose license to revoke? I'd rather not wait until they do cause an accident to declare them unfit to drive...

(Also that assumes that people without licenses won't drive, which isn't necessarily true.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 03, 2012, 11:09:34 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 03, 2012, 11:38:16 AM
But I don't see what is unintuitive about a doghouse.  If there's an arrow, you have the ROW to turn, if there isn't, it behaves as if there was no specific left turn signal.  Simple.  A flashing yellow is actually less intuitive because you have to know what the flashing yellow means.  You don't need to know anything to understand a doghouse, especially in states that only use two through signals + 1 turn signal (in the rare event of a fully protected left) regardless of the number of travel lanes.

People do not always fully understand that a circular green by itself indicates that left turning traffic must yield to oncoming traffic and pedestrians legally within the intersection--it's a "green means go" mentality that is not always the correct interpretation. This happens despite the typical presence of the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON [GREEN BALL]" sign.

There is also the fact that a 5-section display commonly shows both a circular red and a green arrow, when allowing leading protected left turns. Seeing red and green in the same signal face simultaneously sends mixed messages to drivers, and some do not know the proper course of action. A driver *does* need to know how to interpret this display, depending on their intended direction of travel--the number of signal heads or travel lanes doesn't really have anything to do with it.

With the FYA display being only arrows, it is unmistakeable to drivers that the arrow applies to turning traffic versus the 5-section heads that contain arrows and balls. Having a display dedicated to the turning traffic reduces confusion. The flashing yellow itself signifies a caution situation and reinforces the need to proceed carefully.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on September 03, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 03, 2012, 11:09:34 PM
There is also the fact that a 5-section display commonly shows both a circular red and a green arrow, when allowing leading protected left turns. Seeing red and green in the same signal face simultaneously sends mixed messages to drivers, and some do not know the proper course of action. A driver *does* need to know how to interpret this display, depending on their intended direction of travel--the number of signal heads or travel lanes doesn't really have anything to do with it.
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DTComposer on September 04, 2012, 02:46:46 AM
Quote from: myosh_tino on August 28, 2012, 02:15:48 PM
If you're referring to protected lefts, then I completely disagree.  In California protected lefts are the norm (some say we're the home of the protected lefts)

Depends what part of California. In much of Los Angeles (including Hollywood, much of the San Fernando Valley, San Pedro) protected lefts are definitely not the norm as opposed to Orange County. Same for San Francisco. However, I know they're much more prevalent in San Jose.

Saw my first FYA in Fullerton, at Euclid and Malvern. Got a good look at it, as the driver in front of me wasn't sure how to respond, sat for 6 or 7 seconds, lurched forward, stopped again, then finally went (this was with no opposing traffic coming towards us).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 04, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
If drivers think a green ball means "I can do whatever I want even if I'm making a left turn and the other direction has a green ball", then the area probably has far too many protected lefts.  Fully protected lefts should be outlawed except if an engineering study proves that there is too much traffic for the typical permissive left or doghouse type left.

If having the green arrow with a red ball is too confusing, you could just change the signal to have each direction go at a different time.  There are many signals in NY where one direction of traffic will have a leading green so that turning traffic in that direction can get an arrow.

Quote from: Central Avenue on September 03, 2012, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 03, 2012, 11:38:16 AM
If we revoked their licenses, they'd also be a lot less likely to hit you.

But how do you know whose license to revoke? I'd rather not wait until they do cause an accident to declare them unfit to drive...

(Also that assumes that people without licenses won't drive, which isn't necessarily true.)
More rigorous testing to get a licence in the first place.  The road tests we do in the states are a joke; the standards should be as high as in Germany.

Quote from: NE2 on September 03, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 03, 2012, 11:09:34 PM
There is also the fact that a 5-section display commonly shows both a circular red and a green arrow, when allowing leading protected left turns. Seeing red and green in the same signal face simultaneously sends mixed messages to drivers, and some do not know the proper course of action. A driver *does* need to know how to interpret this display, depending on their intended direction of travel--the number of signal heads or travel lanes doesn't really have anything to do with it.
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Why would such a phase exist in the first place?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 04, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
Quote
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Why would such a phase exist in the first place?

couldn't there be a red ball and a flashing yellow left arrow in the same doghouse?  or am I misinterpreting what the flashing yellow arrow means?

the reason for it is to increase traffic capacity in particular situations - namely, when one particular left turn is heavy (say, southbound to eastbound) but southbound straight traffic is light, as is northbound to westbound.  it doesn't make sense to either put the northbound to westbound left on a protected turn, or to entirely stop southbound straight traffic.  both are light enough, and visibility is good enough, that they can maneuver safely.

I run across that situation a lot and wish for the permissive left, which I could make very safely.  around here, the left turn I wish to make gets a red arrow and I have to wait, even though hardly any cars come straight to oppose me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on September 04, 2012, 01:13:39 PM
Best solution I've see is to do as Tucson does it and make all left turns permissive unless otherwise posted (very rare- only a few low-visibility, high traffic intersections prohibit this), and then have the protected phase lag. It could still work with leading lefts too- just post a green ball over the left hand turn lane that transitions to a green arrow when the turn is protected. No need for a doghouse or a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on September 04, 2012, 04:08:30 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 04, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
Quote from: NE2 on September 03, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Why would such a phase exist in the first place?
Not the best example, but let http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/flash/departments/Transportation/yel_solution.swf run through until northbound gets a red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 04, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
Quote
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Why would such a phase exist in the first place?

couldn't there be a red ball and a flashing yellow left arrow in the same doghouse?  or am I misinterpreting what the flashing yellow arrow means?

Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mukade on September 04, 2012, 05:00:23 PM
So I missed something simple. Why is the solid green ball bad and the flashing yellow arrow good? Were there a spate of accidents caused by people misinterpreting a green light or something? People are suggesting a ton of ideas that all have the same effect of a solid green ball that drivers are very familiar with. Unless there are reliable, objective studies stating otherwise, I think changing something as fundamental as a traffic light is both dangerous and a waste of money.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.

now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 05:11:59 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.

now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.

Agreed.  But I guess agree with the post above yours.  The FYA is unnecessary.  If there's a location that just absolutely needs it, then just splurge on a red straight-ahead arrow assembly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on September 04, 2012, 06:42:55 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.

now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.

Apparently straight-ahead green arrows are standard on MoDOT signals. But the reds are balls.

(Not sure if this applies to all of MoDOT or just the Southwest district)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on September 04, 2012, 09:07:19 PM
Quote from: mukade on September 04, 2012, 05:00:23 PM
So I missed something simple. Why is the solid green ball bad and the flashing yellow arrow good? Were there a spate of accidents caused by people misinterpreting a green light or something? People are suggesting a ton of ideas that all have the same effect of a solid green ball that drivers are very familiar with. Unless there are reliable, objective studies stating otherwise, I think changing something as fundamental as a traffic light is both dangerous and a waste of money.

I think the potential confusion you're wondering about is the use of so-called "Dallas Phasing," where left-turning traffic opposite a protective left is given a permissive left. Using a circular green to indicate a permissive left under this circumstance would be a problem, as straight-through traffic could look at the left-turn signal instead of their own, see the circular green, and T-bone into someone that had a protected left.

As for the idea that people do not understand the meaning of the flashing arrow. I am not able to cite chapter and verse right now, but I'd be willing to bet that there are objective and reliable studies indicating that the flashing yellow arrow is fairly intuitive to understand - otherwise, they would not have been included in the 2009 MUTCD.

Which brings me back to this....

Quote from: Brian556 on August 27, 2012, 10:47:11 PM
Here is a situation where the flashing yellow arrow could be very helpful-but could it be used here?
This is Dallas Dr/Bell Av @ Eagle Dr in Denton Tx.

Current setup
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1209.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fcc395%2FBrian5561%2F82312038.jpg&hash=3987a91bf8432bfde7cf18b79f270bfa4bfc81c3)

I just realized, as I was composing the response above, that, in fact, the use of the flashing yellow arrow would be mandatory if permissive left turns were allowed. The 2009 MUTCD only allows the used of the 5-aspect signal on signal heads that are shared between a turn lane and a travel lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mukade on September 04, 2012, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: route56 on September 04, 2012, 09:07:19 PM
As for the idea that people do not understand the meaning of the flashing arrow. I am not able to cite chapter and verse right now, but I'd be willing to bet that there are objective and reliable studies indicating that the flashing yellow arrow is fairly intuitive to understand - otherwise, they would not have been included in the 2009 MUTCD.

Like Clearview. An amazing leap in safety standards.

How many people here who are pretty knowledgeable said they have been momentarily confused at FYA signals? I know it is anecdotal. Nonetheless a green ball is universal - even outside the US, and I never heard of any issue with it.

Didn't the FYA start in Michigan as a way to replace their FRA signals?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 05:57:00 AM
Quote from: deanej on September 04, 2012, 12:16:57 PM
If drivers think a green ball means "I can do whatever I want even if I'm making a left turn and the other direction has a green ball", then the area probably has far too many protected lefts.  Fully protected lefts should be outlawed except if an engineering study proves that there is too much traffic for the typical permissive left or doghouse type left.

That'd be a whole lot of engineering studies to perform. Generally speaking, engineers would be designing the intersection and signalization based on existing and projected future traffic volumes and install protected lefts based on those volumes. I think most well-versed traffic/signal engineers would tell you that they would recommend and install the least restrictive left turn control type wherever possible (and where not in conflict with agency guidelines), because they'd rather achieve better timing/progression--adding protected turn modes increases cycle length and loss time, and affects overall progression bandwidth.

In areas with high traffic volumes, however, protected lefts are absolutely necessary in order to decrease delay for turning traffic--this is simply because there is too much opposing through traffic to clear queues using permissive left turns alone.

Quote from: NE2 on September 03, 2012, 11:29:21 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 03, 2012, 11:09:34 PM
There is also the fact that a 5-section display commonly shows both a circular red and a green arrow, when allowing leading protected left turns. Seeing red and green in the same signal face simultaneously sends mixed messages to drivers, and some do not know the proper course of action. A driver *does* need to know how to interpret this display, depending on their intended direction of travel--the number of signal heads or travel lanes doesn't really have anything to do with it.
In addition, a doghouse cannot show a red ball and a permissive left turn. The "solution" (use a separate doghouse over the left turn lane) is confusing at best, since would have to show a green ball when straight traffic has a red.
Why would such a phase exist in the first place?
[/quote]

This is an application of Dallas Phasing, which allows a permitted left turn when adjacent through traffic is red due to an opposing protected left turn--the approach was developed to allow lead-lag protected left turns but still use PPLT displays and permissive modes for additional capacity. Under Dallas Phasing, the doghouse cannot show a red ball (for through traffic) and permissive left turn (green ball for turning traffic) without modification--a separate signal head for the left turn lane is required, along with additional controller programming and louvers/shielding left turn circular indications from the through traffic. The FYA more effectively implements Dallas Phasing schemes because conflicting ball indications are no longer present.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
couldn't there be a red ball and a flashing yellow left arrow in the same doghouse?  or am I misinterpreting what the flashing yellow arrow means?

Not that you're misinterpreting the meaning of the flashing yellow arrow, but more that it brings up the contradictory indications being shown at the same time in the same signal head. (Similar to having the green arrow and red ball on simultaneously.)


Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.
now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.

The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:16:09 AM
Quote from: route56 on September 04, 2012, 09:07:19 PM
As for the idea that people do not understand the meaning of the flashing arrow. I am not able to cite chapter and verse right now, but I'd be willing to bet that there are objective and reliable studies indicating that the flashing yellow arrow is fairly intuitive to understand - otherwise, they would not have been included in the 2009 MUTCD.

What led FHWA to adopt the FYA into the MUTCD was the results of a major NCHRP study (and possibly others) which surveyed drivers through a driving simulation. They exposed drivers to every type of protected/permitted display (without explanation or instructional signage) in use at the time in the US. Through these tests, the FYA display was the most understood by all participants--it also produced the best fail-safe response.

Quote from: mukade on September 04, 2012, 09:53:43 PM
Didn't the FYA start in Michigan as a way to replace their FRA signals?

The first implementations of FYA were actually in Reno, NV in the mid-late 1990s, but were removed by 2001 due to a change in head city engineers and philosophy on traffic control.

The research and studies leading to FYA adoption were taken on in part because there were so many PPLT signal variations out there...I think there was something like 9-10 variants in the U.S. at the time that were not MUTCD-standard 5-aspect displays.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 10:51:23 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM

Not that you're misinterpreting the meaning of the flashing yellow arrow, but more that it brings up the contradictory indications being shown at the same time in the same signal head. (Similar to having the green arrow and red ball on simultaneously.)

...

The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.

it seems like having a red straight arrow with a non-red turn arrow would alleviate precisely this confusion of a doghouse showing multiple colors.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 05, 2012, 11:34:54 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 05:57:00 AM
This is an application of Dallas Phasing, which allows a permitted left turn when adjacent through traffic is red due to an opposing protected left turn--the approach was developed to allow lead-lag protected left turns but still use PPLT displays and permissive modes for additional capacity. Under Dallas Phasing, the doghouse cannot show a red ball (for through traffic) and permissive left turn (green ball for turning traffic) without modification--a separate signal head for the left turn lane is required, along with additional controller programming and louvers/shielding left turn circular indications from the through traffic. The FYA more effectively implements Dallas Phasing schemes because conflicting ball indications are no longer present.
That would be why I don't understand it.  I've never seen a signal that used Dallas Phasing in my entire life.  In upstate NY, we just use unprotected lefts in typical situation, fully protected lefts on divided highways (only exceptions I can think of is US 11 at NY 345 and NY 342 at US 11 (this will probably disappear soon); both of these are in region 7), and doghouses if a protected left phase is warranted.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
I've seen so many bizarre timing variants that Dallas Phasing doesn't faze me at all.

"oh, straight traffic is red, and the arrow is green.  yeap."
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 06, 2012, 06:26:57 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 10:51:23 AM
it seems like having a red straight arrow with a non-red turn arrow would alleviate precisely this confusion of a doghouse showing multiple colors.

If a straight red were allowed, a green and yellow turn arrow shouldn't be terminated with a straight red arrow in that manner though...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 06, 2012, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 06, 2012, 06:26:57 AM


If a straight red were allowed, a green and yellow turn arrow shouldn't be terminated with a straight red arrow in that manner though...

why not?

the only drawback I can think of is minor initial confusion during the changeover phase, but it should be comparable to confusion regarding a doghouse with a red ball and a left arrow (either green or yellow). 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 06, 2012, 01:51:03 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 05, 2012, 11:39:47 AM
I've seen so many bizarre timing variants that Dallas Phasing doesn't faze me at all.

"oh, straight traffic is red, and the arrow is green.  yeap."
That's not what gets me with this... it's that in NY, a straight red but green left is always protected, not permissive.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on September 06, 2012, 01:54:12 PM
Quote from: deanej on September 06, 2012, 01:51:03 PM

That's not what gets me with this... it's that in NY, a straight red but green left is always protected, not permissive.

I believe red ball with flashing yellow arrow would indicate the permissive situation you desire.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 08, 2012, 06:59:20 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 06, 2012, 12:38:56 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 06, 2012, 06:26:57 AM
If a straight red were allowed, a green and yellow turn arrow shouldn't be terminated with a straight red arrow in that manner though...

why not?

the only drawback I can think of is minor initial confusion during the changeover phase, but it should be comparable to confusion regarding a doghouse with a red ball and a left arrow (either green or yellow).

In the doghouse display, the red section applies to both the protected left turn indications and the through movement indications (or the permissive left indications, in now-defunct Dallas Phasing applications). Essentially, the doghouse acts as two separate signal heads combined into one, with the red shared.

If you separated the two movements into separate signal heads, would it make sense to have green left arrow, yellow left arrow and red straight arrow in one head? Similarly, the other head would have green ball, yellow ball and red straight arrow.

The typical operation of the doghouse makes a bit more sense when imagined as two separate signal heads. The permissive side is a standard signal. The protected side is green left arrow, yellow left arrow, red ball--which by itself the MUTCD considered an acceptable method of displaying protected left turns before red arrows became common.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on September 21, 2012, 07:45:55 PM
I saw a signal in VA that was a three segment display with FYA, Yellow Arrow, Red Arrow. Is this MUTCD compliant for a permissive only FYA installation? I can see why it would be used as you can just change out the LEDs without changing out the entire face, but on the other hand it seems to me a 4-head would be better (even if they don't bother installing a functional module in the bottom section) since drivers are used to seeing a green segment on the bottom.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on September 21, 2012, 08:00:55 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on September 21, 2012, 07:45:55 PM
I saw a signal in VA that was a three segment display with FYA, Yellow Arrow, Red Arrow. Is this MUTCD compliant for a permissive only FYA installation? I can see why it would be used as you can just change out the LEDs without changing out the entire face, but on the other hand it seems to me a 4-head would be better (even if they don't bother installing a functional module in the bottom section) since drivers are used to seeing a green segment on the bottom.

Must be: I've seen 2 in Arkansas. Oncoming has a protected left & steady green for thru traffic, but the other direction is FYA only.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Takumi on September 21, 2012, 08:14:11 PM
That's the first one like that I've heard of here. The ones I've seen all have four segments, as a post at the beginning of this thread shows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 21, 2012, 10:05:37 PM
Mdcastle, that signal you saw in Va. is the accepted arrangement in the MUTCD, for a separate left-turn signal face mounted over or in-front-of a separate left-turn lane, with permissive turns only. The F-Y-A in the bottom position replaces the green-ball.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on September 21, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: mukade on September 04, 2012, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: route56 on September 04, 2012, 09:07:19 PM
As for the idea that people do not understand the meaning of the flashing arrow. I am not able to cite chapter and verse right now, but I'd be willing to bet that there are objective and reliable studies indicating that the flashing yellow arrow is fairly intuitive to understand - otherwise, they would not have been included in the 2009 MUTCD.

Like Clearview. An amazing leap in safety standards.

And almost as wonderful as the 2009 MUTCD screwing up street blade signs and optional lane guide signing :banghead:

Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
couldn't there be a red ball and a flashing yellow left arrow in the same doghouse?  or am I misinterpreting what the flashing yellow arrow means?

Not that you're misinterpreting the meaning of the flashing yellow arrow, but more that it brings up the contradictory indications being shown at the same time in the same signal head. (Similar to having the green arrow and red ball on simultaneously.)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.

Possible another flaw in the MUTCD.  I could see prohibiting straight red or yellow arrows if the indications are the dimmer incandescent variety, but the newer LED indications aren't hard at all to spot from a distance, and should be allowed as an option.  There are a couple setups in Kenosha, WI, that would benefit from straight yellow and red arrows in one of the heads:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 22, 2012, 12:24:03 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on September 21, 2012, 07:45:55 PM
I saw a signal in VA that was a three segment display with FYA, Yellow Arrow, Red Arrow. Is this MUTCD compliant for a permissive only FYA installation?
I think so, though I'm wondering what the point is of having a separate left turn signal here at all.
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 21, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
And almost as wonderful as the 2009 MUTCD screwing up street blade signs and optional lane guide signing :banghead:
I can't agree about the street blade signs.  Many places install street blades that are unreadable even during the day.  Forcing these places to change to a standardized sign can only be an improvement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 22, 2012, 02:04:49 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 21, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.
Possible another flaw in the MUTCD.  I could see prohibiting straight red or yellow arrows if the indications are the dimmer incandescent variety, but the newer LED indications aren't hard at all to spot from a distance, and should be allowed as an option.  There are a couple setups in Kenosha, WI, that would benefit from straight yellow and red arrows in one of the heads:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57)

The linked setup would better benefit from physical separation of the left turn and through signal heads, instead of changing the indications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 22, 2012, 05:07:34 PM
Deanej, I agree with you about street blade signs. I have driven thru some very exclusive villages that had very decorative, but almost unreadable steet signs. Definitely time for standardization, though I bet those villages won't change.

Re: the separate left-turn signal, maybe the particular intersection had a history of left-turn accidents, so they installed the FYA for greater clarity and compliance. I agree that the public should understand that you need to yield to thru traffic on a green-ball, but I'm in favor of FYA if it will keep some idiot from turning left in front of me and ruining my life.

And 755, I agree with you about the optional-lane signing. The FWHA created a problem where there wasn't one (in my opinion)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on September 22, 2012, 07:34:17 PM
None around here yet but maybe we could use them.  Twice today, yes twice, I saw people who pulled up to the line in the left turn lane too late to trigger an arrow on a doghouse signal decide to just go on red anyway when enough of a break the other way (with green circle and left arrow for oncoming) opened up.  Perhaps sensible if there were a FYA facing our way, but definitely not legal without one. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Central Avenue on September 23, 2012, 02:15:24 AM
Quote from: deanej on September 22, 2012, 12:24:03 PM
I think so, though I'm wondering what the point is of having a separate left turn signal here at all.

The only thing I could think of is some kind of situation where it would be desirable to control the permissive-only left separate from the through movement. So you could have the left signal red while the through is green or the left flashing yellow while the through is red.

But I'm not sure whether that would ever be useful...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 26, 2012, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 21, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: mukade on September 04, 2012, 09:53:43 PM
Quote from: route56 on September 04, 2012, 09:07:19 PM
As for the idea that people do not understand the meaning of the flashing arrow. I am not able to cite chapter and verse right now, but I'd be willing to bet that there are objective and reliable studies indicating that the flashing yellow arrow is fairly intuitive to understand - otherwise, they would not have been included in the 2009 MUTCD.

Like Clearview. An amazing leap in safety standards.

And almost as wonderful as the 2009 MUTCD screwing up street blade signs and optional lane guide signing :banghead:

Actually, the 2009 MUTCD made the correct call concerning Street Name signs, something that should have been done in 1988 - when the "sign every street initiative was included". However, it DID screw up Destination signs, badly.

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 21, 2012, 10:12:39 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 12:36:55 PM
couldn't there be a red ball and a flashing yellow left arrow in the same doghouse?  or am I misinterpreting what the flashing yellow arrow means?

Not that you're misinterpreting the meaning of the flashing yellow arrow, but more that it brings up the contradictory indications being shown at the same time in the same signal head. (Similar to having the green arrow and red ball on simultaneously.)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.

Possible another flaw in the MUTCD.  I could see prohibiting straight red or yellow arrows if the indications are the dimmer incandescent variety, but the newer LED indications aren't hard at all to spot from a distance, and should be allowed as an option.  There are a couple setups in Kenosha, WI, that would benefit from straight yellow and red arrows in one of the heads:

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57 (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=kenosha,+wi&hl=en&ll=42.566871,-87.887496&spn=0.001677,0.004128&sll=42.10561,-88.076363&sspn=0.215233,0.528374&hnear=Kenosha,+Wisconsin&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=42.566871,-87.887496&panoid=Uw1uj2kur2aT-Qsx5Bb_3g&cbp=12,232.98,,0,3.57)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mjb2002 on September 26, 2012, 06:25:39 PM
BTW, back on topic...the flashing yellow turn signals have not made it to my side of the Central Savannah River Area yet - NOT even in Aiken, North Augusta or Orangeburg. Not sure about metro Augusta, though - if so, the flashing yellow would likely be in parts of Augusta, Evans, Grovetown and/or Martinez - since that area is larger and more urban.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Road Hog on September 27, 2012, 01:11:29 PM
Flashing yellow arrows have been up in Texas for about a year now. That's when I saw the first ones in front of the new Walmart in Frisco.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on October 02, 2012, 11:23:17 PM
Saw the FYA in Idaho and Wyoming during my Yellowstone trip.  I really like the concept and wish PennDOT would adopt to replace all the doghouse signals in Philly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on October 03, 2012, 03:40:53 PM
I have seen signs now that inform what the flashing yellow is about. 

One place in Texas I seen the signal head for left turns go completely out with no orientation when the same function that takes place as the flashing yellow left arrow.  This one unique situation was on Northwest Parkway near Dallas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on October 10, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
Does anyone find this FYA operation a bit odd?  This is at Saginaw Hwy & I-69 on ramp in Lansing, Michigan. 

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on October 10, 2012, 10:35:44 PM
Hey tradephoric, I think you're needed here: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7546.msg178806#msg178806

Quote from: tradephoric on October 10, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
Does anyone find this FYA operation a bit odd?  This is at Saginaw Hwy & I-69 on ramp in Lansing, Michigan. 

Other than the guy not turning when he could have (0:21), I see nothing wrong. That's a perfect illustration of how the FYA fixes the yellow trap problem.

Presumably there's a detector in the left turn lane, and if someone's been sitting there too long they get a protected turn. Otherwise there's no reason for oncoming traffic to have a red (traffic coming from the right can only turn right).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on October 21, 2012, 11:53:54 PM
Today I saw this row of signals (http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=28.509314,-81.41942&spn=0.017196,0.033023&gl=us&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=28.509113,-81.419308&panoid=-g4iOgdLHGuvz-wi05rLwQ&cbp=12,148.54,,0,1.7) in blink mode, including flashing yellow right arrows. There doesn't seem to be a major conflict with the new definition of flashing yellow here, but could this be a problem in other situations?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on October 23, 2012, 08:46:58 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.

now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.

Alabama uses straight ahead green and yellow arrows on the side of the street where turns aren't allowed (i.e. one way streets).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on October 23, 2012, 10:03:08 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on October 23, 2012, 08:46:58 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on September 04, 2012, 05:09:55 PM
Quote from: kphoger on September 04, 2012, 04:26:26 PM
Or use a red straight-ahead arrow along with a flashing yellow left arrow, thereby clearly defining each movement.

now that sounds like one hell of a retrofit.  straight-ahead arrows are pretty uncommon in the US, especially red ones.

Alabama uses straight ahead green and yellow arrows on the side of the street where turns aren't allowed (i.e. one way streets).
MUTCD prohibits a straight ahead yellow (and red) arrow:

Section 4D.05 Application of Steady Signal Indications

09 A straight-through RED ARROW signal indication or a straight-through YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall not be displayed on any signal face, either alone or in combination with any other signal indication.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on October 10, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
Does anyone find this FYA operation a bit odd?  This is at Saginaw Hwy & I-69 on ramp in Lansing, Michigan. 



The only thing I would find odd, if that installation were in Virginia, is that there's no sign saying "Left Turn Yield on Flashing [arrow graphic]." The flashing yellow arrow is uncommon here, and the ones I've seen were installed by the City of Alexandria rather than VDOT, but the ones I've seen have a sign. Of course I recognize that other states might not use a sign and that the installation might be a lot more common elsewhere than it is here.

But I think "NE2" is correct, it seems like a classic place for a flashing yellow arrow. I've encountered several intersections lately with red arrows where the flashing yellow would be far more appropriate. See picture below from Frontier Drive in Springfield, Virginia. I was waiting to turn left to go to the bank and, as you can see, it was very easy to see that nobody was coming the other way. (The road onto which I was turning leads down into the car park for Springfield Mall, although the mall itself is currently closed for renovation.) The more common installation in Virginia would be a doghouse signal with the familiar "Left Turn Yield on [green circle graphic]," but whether you use that or a flashing yellow arrow, it's damn annoying when they throw up a red arrow instead and you have to sit there wasting gas staring at an unnecessary red light.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneousOctober2012048_zps842c04a7.jpg&hash=5dc7523258fdae434ec9009bd37122db18767d98)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Takumi on October 23, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
The biggest candidate for a flashing yellow arrow I can think of is in Colonial Heights, VA at the intersection of Temple Avenue (VA 144) and the ramp to/from I-95. The yellow trap is so common there, with countless accidents in my lifetime, that there are two or three "Left Turn Must Yield On Green Ball" signs and an LED "Left Turn Must Yield" sign on the ground-mounted left turn signal, which lights up during the permissive cycle. Of course, there are still accidents there on occasion, but an FYA would likely lessen them even more.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on October 23, 2012, 08:08:35 PM
Sorry, off topic............1995hoo, are you saying the whole Springfield Mall is closed for renovation? That's a huge mall; I can't believe they would close the whole place down even temporarily, too much revenue would be lost.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 08:40:09 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on October 23, 2012, 08:08:35 PM
Sorry, off topic............1995hoo, are you saying the whole Springfield Mall is closed for renovation? That's a huge mall; I can't believe they would close the whole place down even temporarily, too much revenue would be lost.

Everything except the anchor stores (JC Penney's, Macy's, Target). The other buildings nearby (the bank on the corner; the Firestone place; small shops next to Firestone) also remain open. But the mall itself is closed. Don't think many people miss it too much. It was getting rather ghetto in there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on October 23, 2012, 09:21:32 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on October 23, 2012, 08:08:35 PM
Sorry, off topic............1995hoo, are you saying the whole Springfield Mall is closed for renovation? That's a huge mall; I can't believe they would close the whole place down even temporarily, too much revenue would be lost.

Funny thing is I was down there this weekend too and noticed the same thing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on November 06, 2012, 06:53:18 PM
I just saw three of them in close proximity in Lenexa, Kansas.  95th Street, both east and west of I-35.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: KEK Inc. on November 14, 2012, 06:57:33 AM
http://goo.gl/maps/kt29Q
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: basilicon89 on November 14, 2012, 08:12:44 AM
Flashing Yellow Arrow as you see has made it to Michigan...replacing the tried and true (and much better IMO) flashing red ball.

It also has been "installed" in my basement intersection. They require up-to-date software in the controller to operate.

-Nick
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: BiggieJohn on November 16, 2012, 06:04:13 PM
We just got them here in central Texas, city of Round Rock has started adding them to busy intersections.
so far, it seems to be confusing more people then it's helping
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on November 18, 2012, 02:10:02 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
I've encountered several intersections lately with red arrows where the flashing yellow would be far more appropriate.
I could be wrong, but it looks like there are three through lanes in conflict with the left turn in your picture.  I think the rule (and I'm sure every DOT/municipality has their own rules) is to only allow permitted lefts across two opposing through lanes.  Since there are three lanes in your example, only protected lefts would be allowed.

But yes, signals are almost always annoying  :D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 18, 2012, 07:02:16 AM
^ There is no hard and fast rule in the MUTCD on use of protected versus permitted versus protected/permitted in such situations. The decision is usually left to either agency policy or engineering judgement or some combination.

Agency policy for this situation typically is a function of a number of factors--the major controlling factors are usually number of opposing lanes, speed and volume on opposing through lanes, and adequate sight distance.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on November 18, 2012, 04:29:45 PM
On a major (7-lane Undivided) county road in my area, signals erected by the County do have protected/permitted left-turn phasing across 3 lanes of opposing traffic. The County's priority seems to be on keeping traffic moving as much as possible. New York State DOT usually uses protected only on similar roads that they control. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Alps on November 19, 2012, 06:49:17 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on November 18, 2012, 04:29:45 PM
On a major (7-lane Undivided) county road in my area, signals erected by the County do have protected/permitted left-turn phasing across 3 lanes of opposing traffic. The County's priority seems to be on keeping traffic moving as much as possible. New York State DOT usually uses protected only on similar roads that they control. 
NJDOT's requirement is protected only for left turns of 2 or more lanes. I guess in this state we don't allow left turns over 3 or more lanes anyway, that's what jughandles are for. :-D But elsewhere in the country, I've seen left turns across 3 or even 4 lanes at unsignalized intersections, let alone at signals, and with all different types of permission/protection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on November 25, 2012, 10:04:46 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 18, 2012, 07:02:16 AM
^ There is no hard and fast rule in the MUTCD on use of protected versus permitted versus protected/permitted in such situations. The decision is usually left to either agency policy or engineering judgement or some combination.

Agency policy for this situation typically is a function of a number of factors--the major controlling factors are usually number of opposing lanes, speed and volume on opposing through lanes, and adequate sight distance.

I have not seen any flashing yellow/permissive yellow here in the Northeast or at least in CT, MA, RI, but I wish they would start using it. RI and MA in my opinion have an unhealthy addiction to the protected left turn signal and tend to overuse it in places that don't warrant it. CT is getting just as bad, I remember growing up in the early 80's in SE CT and seeing my first dedicated protected left turn signal, before that most intersections in my area with a left turn lane had a protected/permissive signal (green orb with green arrow). Today most intersections with left turn lanes I encounter in CT are going to protected left turn signals.

I first encountered the flashing yellow/permissive yellow when I travelled to WA in the Seattle area and loved the fact that I didn't have to wait as long to do a left turn.

I think that the dedicated left turn signal causes more congestion as cars waiting to turn queue up in situations where there is very little or no oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on November 26, 2012, 08:32:40 AM
I was in Fayetteville, NC recently, and I saw them all over the place. None yet in PA though that I've seen.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on December 08, 2012, 09:45:58 AM
Quote from: Takumi on October 23, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
The biggest candidate for a flashing yellow arrow I can think of is in Colonial Heights, VA at the intersection of Temple Avenue (VA 144) and the ramp to/from I-95. The yellow trap is so common there, with countless accidents in my lifetime, that there are two or three "Left Turn Must Yield On Green Ball" signs and an LED "Left Turn Must Yield" sign on the ground-mounted left turn signal, which lights up during the permissive cycle. Of course, there are still accidents there on occasion, but an FYA would likely lessen them even more.

OT somewhat, but I do not even want to imagine how much worse that intersection would be now without the ramp from VA 144 NB to I-95 NB.  Before the ramp, I really don't think a FYA would have helped much.  Anyway another FYA is about to be installed on US 29 in Nelson County.

http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/lynchburg/2012/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes62073.asp (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/lynchburg/2012/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes62073.asp)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: abc2VE on December 08, 2012, 07:36:18 PM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on December 08, 2012, 09:45:58 AM
Quote from: Takumi on October 23, 2012, 10:56:20 AM
The biggest candidate for a flashing yellow arrow I can think of is in Colonial Heights, VA at the intersection of Temple Avenue (VA 144) and the ramp to/from I-95. The yellow trap is so common there, with countless accidents in my lifetime, that there are two or three "Left Turn Must Yield On Green Ball" signs and an LED "Left Turn Must Yield" sign on the ground-mounted left turn signal, which lights up during the permissive cycle. Of course, there are still accidents there on occasion, but an FYA would likely lessen them even more.

OT somewhat, but I do not even want to imagine how much worse that intersection would be now without the ramp from VA 144 NB to I-95 NB.  Before the ramp, I really don't think a FYA would have helped much.  Anyway another FYA is about to be installed on US 29 in Nelson County.

http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/lynchburg/2012/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes62073.asp (http://virginiadot.org/newsroom/lynchburg/2012/flashing_yellow_arrow_comes62073.asp)

It still is pretty bad with the left turn lane being too short and the lack of a right turn signal from I-95 which backs up horribly during rush hour
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mark68 on December 17, 2012, 04:36:47 AM
They're starting to become common with new signal installations here in Aurora, CO. I've seen a few of the 4-section variety and one or two of the 3-section variety. Haven't seen any in Denver yet, most intersections still have either the doghouse or protected left-turn signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Daniel on January 02, 2013, 12:41:15 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on October 23, 2012, 10:10:38 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on October 10, 2012, 09:16:48 PM
Does anyone find this FYA operation a bit odd?  This is at Saginaw Hwy & I-69 on ramp in Lansing, Michigan. 



The only thing I would find odd, if that installation were in Virginia, is that there's no sign saying "Left Turn Yield on Flashing [arrow graphic]." The flashing yellow arrow is uncommon here, and the ones I've seen were installed by the City of Alexandria rather than VDOT, but the ones I've seen have a sign. Of course I recognize that other states might not use a sign and that the installation might be a lot more common elsewhere than it is here.

But I think "NE2" is correct, it seems like a classic place for a flashing yellow arrow. I've encountered several intersections lately with red arrows where the flashing yellow would be far more appropriate. See picture below from Frontier Drive in Springfield, Virginia. I was waiting to turn left to go to the bank and, as you can see, it was very easy to see that nobody was coming the other way. (The road onto which I was turning leads down into the car park for Springfield Mall, although the mall itself is currently closed for renovation.) The more common installation in Virginia would be a doghouse signal with the familiar "Left Turn Yield on [green circle graphic]," but whether you use that or a flashing yellow arrow, it's damn annoying when they throw up a red arrow instead and you have to sit there wasting gas staring at an unnecessary red light.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi31.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fc378%2F1995hoo%2FRoad%2520sign%2520pictures%2FMiscellaneousOctober2012048_zps842c04a7.jpg&hash=5dc7523258fdae434ec9009bd37122db18767d98)

Oh I find that so bloody annoying. Where I live in Michigan, almost all the turning lights are restricted totally, even ones at intersections where the turning light is barely necessary and you can see a half mile ahead. I live in Ann Arbor and I find it really ironic because of the city's famous "eco ego", yet almost everywhere else in Michigan, it's almost all much more efficient flashing red balls or flashing yellow arrows. There are also a few "No Turn on Red" intersections with a right turn only lane and left turning lights for the cross traffic, but no right arrow, when one could very well be fitted. I personally think it's all bait. People are tempted to jump the red, do so, get caught by a watching cop they didn't see, get a citation, and thus more money for the city.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on March 07, 2013, 10:51:22 PM
It looks like there may be some installed in Kane County, Illinois in the near future

http://kdot.countyofkane.org/Lists/Consultant%20SOI/Attachments/112/RSOI%20-%202013%20HSIP%20Project%20.pdf (http://kdot.countyofkane.org/Lists/Consultant%20SOI/Attachments/112/RSOI%20-%202013%20HSIP%20Project%20.pdf) (See third paragraph, first bullet point on Page 2)

EDIT: Also mention of it in http://www.countyofkane.org/Contracts/2012/Transportation/Phase%20II%20Eng%20Svic%20Agmt%20ESI%20Consultants%20Highway%20Safety%20Projects%20Sec%2011-00-418-00-SP.pdf (http://www.countyofkane.org/Contracts/2012/Transportation/Phase%20II%20Eng%20Svic%20Agmt%20ESI%20Consultants%20Highway%20Safety%20Projects%20Sec%2011-00-418-00-SP.pdf) (may be slow to load)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on March 15, 2013, 07:14:58 PM
As far as I know, it is not in use (as of yet) in the state of New Jersey. I know it is in use in certain parts of the state of New York.

Aside from the state itself, I am aware of one that exists in the city of New York. Although the configuration is slightly different, and its purpose is also somewhat different.

The traffic signal is composed of three signal indications (Red Arrow/Amber Arrow/Flashing Amber Arrow), and it is actually a right turn signal. Its purpose to motorists is to alert them to yield to pedestrians (when they make right turns at the corner). This alert is, of course, indicated by the flashing amber arrow. The set-up that I am aware of is in Brooklyn. It's at the corner of Atlantic Avenue and Flatbush Avenue.

Personally, I find the set-up there pointless, since many signs that tell drivers to always yield to pedestrians exist throughout the boroughs, and drivers should be aware of that. Although I forget where I am.   :-/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ztonyg on March 19, 2013, 01:51:20 AM
Quote from: swbrotha100 on June 25, 2012, 03:12:38 PM
It's made it to Arizona. Scattered around the Phoenix area. Saw a few in Tucson years ago. Of course, Tucson goes overboard (in my opinion) with flashing yellow arrows.

This type of signal is spreading like wildfire in Arizona now (although I don't believe that the City of Phoenix has adopted it yet).  Chandler, Peoria, and Scottsdale all use it (what I've seen).

Interestingly enough Tucson's flashing yellow arrow is not for LEFT turns as Tucson loathes protected left signals but rather Tucson uses a flashing yellow RIGHT turn signal.  I can see Tucson going to flashing yellow at the few leading left intersections that they have. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on March 24, 2013, 07:13:29 PM
The one on NY 441 is now operating as a flashing yellow in both directions.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on March 24, 2013, 10:06:05 PM
I didn't see any on my trip to Louisiana and Mississippi.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on March 27, 2013, 06:28:36 PM
Second one in Georgia came into operation today:
http://www.wsbtv.com/videos/news/new-cobb-co-traffic-signal-to-debut-today/vwmF8/
http://www.wsbradio.com/news/news/local/busy-intersection-cobb-county/nW5PC/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
As I mentioned in my previous post, New York City uses the flashing amber arrow in some parts. It has a different purpose, though, and it warns drivers to yield to pedestrians when they make a right turn. Below, is an example of a set-up that was just recently installed in downtown Brooklyn. At Amity Street and Court Street. Prior to when these were installed, the original traffic signals were ordinary red/amber/green traffic signals.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1013.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Faf258%2FSteven197981%2FAmityyellowsignal_small_zpseb04afee.jpg&hash=04c339447a8198f5ff43567d5bd56897043eab89)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on April 01, 2013, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
As I mentioned in my previous post, New York City uses the flashing amber arrow in some parts. It has a different purpose, though, and it warns drivers to yield to pedestrians when they make a right turn.
This is the same purpose (a green arrow cannot be used across a walk phase). The only problem is the positioning: colorblind people might think it's a flashing green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Alps on April 01, 2013, 10:14:01 PM
Quote from: NE2 on April 01, 2013, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
As I mentioned in my previous post, New York City uses the flashing amber arrow in some parts. It has a different purpose, though, and it warns drivers to yield to pedestrians when they make a right turn.
This is the same purpose (a green arrow cannot be used across a walk phase). The only problem is the positioning: colorblind people might think it's a flashing green.
Flashing green is not allowed in the MUTCD. Problem solved.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 10:39:14 PM
Quote from: Petite Disorganized NIMBY of Nimbya on April 01, 2013, 10:14:01 PM
Quote from: NE2 on April 01, 2013, 09:35:33 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 09:04:25 PM
As I mentioned in my previous post, New York City uses the flashing amber arrow in some parts. It has a different purpose, though, and it warns drivers to yield to pedestrians when they make a right turn.
This is the same purpose (a green arrow cannot be used across a walk phase). The only problem is the positioning: colorblind people might think it's a flashing green.
Flashing green is not allowed in the MUTCD. Problem solved.

I recall that the flashing green was an old form a protected left turn movement in Canada. I wonder if it is still in use.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on April 01, 2013, 11:17:16 PM
It's made it to Arizona. i haven't seen any outside the Phoenix area. I was in Tucson a couple weeks ago and was surprised to not see any there, especially considering how much the city of Tucson LOVES to use unconventional traffic signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ian on April 01, 2013, 11:21:44 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 10:39:14 PM
I recall that the flashing green was an old form a protected left turn movement in Canada. I wonder if it is still in use.

It is.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on April 02, 2013, 01:12:31 AM
Quote from: PennDOTFan on April 01, 2013, 11:21:44 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on April 01, 2013, 10:39:14 PM
I recall that the flashing green was an old form a protected left turn movement in Canada. I wonder if it is still in use.

It is.

Ontario driving guide says the flashing green is meant for turning traffic.  Applies to a rapidly flashing green ball, or a flashing green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on April 02, 2013, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20, v 3.0(b) on April 01, 2013, 10:39:14 PM
Quote from: The Great NE2 on April 01, 2013, 10:14:01 PM
Flashing green is not allowed in the MUTCD. Problem solved.

I recall that the flashing green was an old form a protected left turn movement in Canada. I wonder if it is still in use.

Wondering what Canada has to do with the MUTCD.......
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on April 02, 2013, 04:19:23 PM
is flashing green allowed in the Vienna Convention of 1968?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on April 02, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
Only if preceded and followed by flashing goat.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on April 02, 2013, 04:44:49 PM
In Alanland, the flashing green is prohibited where required.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SD Mapman on April 02, 2013, 04:52:38 PM
Flashing yellow sighted in Spearfish and Belle fourche, South Dakota. There you go.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on April 02, 2013, 04:59:00 PM
Quote from: NE2 on April 02, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
flashing goat.

What!  No picture?

>>> GOAT UPSKIRT (http://www.hobbyfarms.com/images/editorial-blog/sue-weaver/Twinswithsweater_255.jpg) <<<
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on April 13, 2013, 12:28:21 PM
I believe now its the new norm in Orange County, FL.  A new installation on Sand Lake Road near Florida Mall has it, as well as a new forthcoming signal on Orange Blossom Trail at a future Wal Mart nearby is going to have it.  Other signals that are new in the Orlando area (as signals seem to keep popping up like crabgrass here) seem to be having them installed.

Maybe now, we will not get the drivers who cannot differentiate between a left turn signal and a protected left as this should even make it for a simple moron to figure out its meaning.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: D-Dey65 on April 19, 2013, 12:24:12 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 13, 2013, 12:28:21 PM
I believe now its the new norm in Orange County, FL.
I know for certain that they exist at random intersections along FL 44 in Inverness, most of which are along the concurrency with US 41.

The first one is in front of the Old Courthouse.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on April 22, 2013, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on April 19, 2013, 12:24:12 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 13, 2013, 12:28:21 PM
I believe now its the new norm in Orange County, FL.
I know for certain that they exist at random intersections along FL 44 in Inverness, most of which are along the concurrency with US 41.

The first one is in front of the Old Courthouse.


You know, with these any road agency could assign part time left turn signals and the rest of the time normal operations.

The way it is set up, you could program the "RED" ball or arrow to stay on during rush hours or any peak travel times, and when traffic is light, flash the yellow turn arrows.  Delaware has had this for years, although maybe not the flashing arrow as this, but with a flashing red on left turn signal heads.  Of course, this is an alternative as well.  Just flash the red left turn arrow or ball when traffic is light.  Considering gas is expensive, how much of it do we waste for waiting for left turn signals when the opposing lanes are very clear.  Having a P/T left turn signal is wise.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on April 22, 2013, 11:10:09 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 22, 2013, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: D-Dey65 on April 19, 2013, 12:24:12 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on April 13, 2013, 12:28:21 PM
I believe now its the new norm in Orange County, FL.
I know for certain that they exist at random intersections along FL 44 in Inverness, most of which are along the concurrency with US 41.

The first one is in front of the Old Courthouse.


You know, with these any road agency could assign part time left turn signals and the rest of the time normal operations.

The way it is set up, you could program the "RED" ball or arrow to stay on during rush hours or any peak travel times, and when traffic is light, flash the yellow turn arrows.  Delaware has had this for years, although maybe not the flashing arrow as this, but with a flashing red on left turn signal heads.  Of course, this is an alternative as well.  Just flash the red left turn arrow or ball when traffic is light.  Considering gas is expensive, how much of it do we waste for waiting for left turn signals when the opposing lanes are very clear.  Having a P/T left turn signal is wise.

That's how I noticed the FYAs being used in IDOT District 4 in the Peoria and Pekin areas.  Opposing traffic would get the green ball and arrow while the red ball was on with the FYA for the left turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: pctech on April 23, 2013, 09:41:26 AM
I asked a Baton Rouge DPW signal rep. at an Earth day demonstration about using the  flashing turn arrows here. He said that it's under consideration.

Mark
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 25, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
There is one of these in Jeffersonville, Indiana, at Veterans Pkwy and Town Center Blvd. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on April 25, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 25, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
There is one of these in Jeffersonville, Indiana, at Veterans Pkwy and Town Center Blvd.

I thought INDOT wasn't going to use it. It's sort of confusing. Not enough people in the USA understand what it means. They don't have any in Terre Haute yet and I hope they don't put any any here. They will cause wrecks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NWI_Irish96 on April 25, 2013, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: US 41 on April 25, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 25, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
There is one of these in Jeffersonville, Indiana, at Veterans Pkwy and Town Center Blvd.

I thought INDOT wasn't going to use it. It's sort of confusing. Not enough people in the USA understand what it means. They don't have any in Terre Haute yet and I hope they don't put any any here. They will cause wrecks.

This particular location is not on a state highway, so it's not an INDOT maintained road. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on April 29, 2013, 01:44:46 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 25, 2013, 02:14:32 PM
Quote from: US 41 on April 25, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
Quote from: cabiness42 on April 25, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
There is one of these in Jeffersonville, Indiana, at Veterans Pkwy and Town Center Blvd.

I thought INDOT wasn't going to use it. It's sort of confusing. Not enough people in the USA understand what it means. They don't have any in Terre Haute yet and I hope they don't put any any here. They will cause wrecks.

This particular location is not on a state highway, so it's not an INDOT maintained road.

I see  :banghead:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on May 01, 2013, 09:06:51 PM
There's one on US192 in downtown Melbourne now, and they're about to activate one on US1 here also.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Duke87 on May 01, 2013, 10:01:24 PM
I found a flashing yellow right turn arrow today. It's at the intersection of Thomson Avenue and Van Dam Street in Queens.

I don't have a picture and on street view of the area (from 2009) it hasn't been installed yet, but it was a three lamp signal with red arrow, solid yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow (why a separate lamp for the flashing arrow from the solid arrow is anyone's guess)

There is a lot of pedestrian traffic at this intersection due to there being a community college and a high school nearby. The point of the flashing yellow arrow in this case seems to be to emphasize that turning traffic must yield to said pedestrians. It does not seem to be used in order to enable what would otherwise be a right on red (prohibited unless otherwise posted in NYC), but I didn't stick around and watch long enough to really catch everything because I had an appointment I had to get to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on May 01, 2013, 11:10:26 PM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2013, 10:01:24 PM
(why a separate lamp for the flashing arrow from the solid arrow is anyone's guess)
That is a MUTCD requirement for a FYA.  Used to warn that the signal is about to turn red and may me hard to differentiate that fact if it was on the same lamp.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on May 12, 2013, 05:22:05 AM
Quote from: Duke87 on May 01, 2013, 10:01:24 PM
I found a flashing yellow right turn arrow today. It's at the intersection of Thomson Avenue and Van Dam Street in Queens.

I don't have a picture and on street view of the area (from 2009) it hasn't been installed yet, but it was a three lamp signal with red arrow, solid yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow (why a separate lamp for the flashing arrow from the solid arrow is anyone's guess)

There is a lot of pedestrian traffic at this intersection due to there being a community college and a high school nearby. The point of the flashing yellow arrow in this case seems to be to emphasize that turning traffic must yield to said pedestrians. It does not seem to be used in order to enable what would otherwise be a right on red (prohibited unless otherwise posted in NYC), but I didn't stick around and watch long enough to really catch everything because I had an appointment I had to get to.

There are several intersections throughout New York City that currently use them. I am aware of two that are in use in Brooklyn. They merely indicate to motorists to yield to pedestrians when they make right turns (on flashing amber arrow). From what I understand, the traffic signals are synchronized with the main drag traffic signals as well, so they don't indicate the allowance of right turn on red.

In my opinion, I think the set-up is rather unnecessary altogether, since motorists should know to yield to pedestrians before they make right turns at intersections. You also have signs there that indicate to motorists to yield to pedestrians. What else could the city use to clearly emphasize this? Common sense, really.

Just my two cents.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on May 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
^ MUTCD requires signals over a turn lane where a straight-through movement is prohibited to have arrows only. If this FYA signal for right turns is above a right-turn-only lane, it should have arrows to satisfy that requirement.

That said, if there is a ton of pedestrian traffic, cars turning right would never be able to do so because they don't get a protected phase. But the two times I was in NYC, I don't remember seeing any signals with green right arrows, so I assume the traffic is able to turn right just fine without the protected phases.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on May 16, 2013, 09:51:44 AM
Quote from: Ace10 on May 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
^ MUTCD requires signals over a turn lane where a straight-through movement is prohibited to have arrows only. If this FYA signal for right turns is above a right-turn-only lane, it should have arrows to satisfy that requirement.

That said, if there is a ton of pedestrian traffic, cars turning right would never be able to do so because they don't get a protected phase. But the two times I was in NYC, I don't remember seeing any signals with green right arrows, so I assume the traffic is able to turn right just fine without the protected phases.

Even with a protected phase, it may not matter. See this Street View link to 18th & L in Northwest DC. (http://goo.gl/maps/9oi0J) (A red arrow is about to come on for the right turn.) Notice the sign saying you can turn right only on the green arrow cycle. When that right-turn arrow comes on, the pedestrians get a "Don't Walk" sign, but at busy times of day they almost universally ignore it, and they become IRATE when drivers try to take the right-of-way. It's a serious problem: Obviously forcing a vehicle—pedestrian conflict isn't safe, but if you don't do that, you'll never get around that corner.

I haven't seen all that many intersections over the years that restrict a right turn in this particular manner. A flashing yellow wouldn't help in this scenario because you'd still have the problem of not being able to get around the corner.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ned Weasel on May 16, 2013, 09:31:47 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on May 16, 2013, 09:51:44 AM
Quote from: Ace10 on May 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
^ MUTCD requires signals over a turn lane where a straight-through movement is prohibited to have arrows only. If this FYA signal for right turns is above a right-turn-only lane, it should have arrows to satisfy that requirement.

That said, if there is a ton of pedestrian traffic, cars turning right would never be able to do so because they don't get a protected phase. But the two times I was in NYC, I don't remember seeing any signals with green right arrows, so I assume the traffic is able to turn right just fine without the protected phases.

Even with a protected phase, it may not matter. See this Street View link to 18th & L in Northwest DC. (http://goo.gl/maps/9oi0J) (A red arrow is about to come on for the right turn.) Notice the sign saying you can turn right only on the green arrow cycle. When that right-turn arrow comes on, the pedestrians get a "Don't Walk" sign, but at busy times of day they almost universally ignore it, and they become IRATE when drivers try to take the right-of-way. It's a serious problem: Obviously forcing a vehicle–pedestrian conflict isn't safe, but if you don't do that, you'll never get around that corner.

I haven't seen all that many intersections over the years that restrict a right turn in this particular manner. A flashing yellow wouldn't help in this scenario because you'd still have the problem of not being able to get around the corner.

I think the solution, for motorists wanting to turn right where it conflicts with heavy pedestrian traffic but no protected right turn exists, is to (1) pull out into the intersection, (2) wait for pedestrian traffic to clear, which probably happens shortly after the light turns red, and (3) complete the turn before the car traffic perpendicular to one's left goes straight.  It's not ideal, but I don't know of a better solution when a right turn from that direction comprises a minority of movements from that direction in the intersection.

(I was about to say, "I don't know of a better solution where a right turn is a minority movement," but then I realized "minority movement" usually means something else and that my minority usage of the term "minority movement" might confuse people, or worse.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 21, 2013, 10:44:23 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on May 15, 2013, 09:22:01 PM
^ MUTCD requires signals over a turn lane where a straight-through movement is prohibited to have arrows only. If this FYA signal for right turns is above a right-turn-only lane, it should have arrows to satisfy that requirement.

The MUTCD has a very broad definition of a 'shared signal head' for a right turn signal, per figure 4D-18 (Page 481 or 49/98 of http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part4.pdf (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2009r1r2/part4.pdf)). It appears some agencies are taking advantage of that definition to avoid installing FYA's for right turn movements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mjb2002 on May 29, 2013, 12:35:15 PM
Yes. It has made it to South Carolina. Less than eight hours after SCDOT unveiled the flashing yellow arrow, one was installed on FARROW RD in Columbia, close to SCDOT's main headquarters.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NE2 on May 29, 2013, 12:47:23 PM
Quote from: mjb2002 on May 29, 2013, 12:35:15 PM
one was installed on FARROW RD in Columbia
It's almost like they deliberately chose that road.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on May 31, 2013, 03:40:20 AM
North Carolina is really in love with them.  Saw tons of them in the Charlotte area while I was down there for the Coca-Cola 600.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DSS5 on June 12, 2013, 03:55:46 PM
The only place I've seen it is where US 421 and 221 split on the way out of Boone.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: dfnva on June 12, 2013, 09:51:11 PM
I saw something odd over the weekend in Maryland.  Flashing left-red-arrow with an auxiliary sign stating "Left Turn Yield after Stop." 

I believe it was here in North Bethesda -- http://goo.gl/maps/B3F7Q -- this must be a rather recent phenomenon as it's not depicted in the street view.

Does this exist anywhere else in MD?

-Dan
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 12, 2013, 09:58:31 PM
There are tons of them in the Morehead City, NC area (here for work). There's even a 3 segment FYA permissive-only signal which I've never seem anywhere else.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: deathtopumpkins on June 12, 2013, 10:27:30 PM
Quote from: dfnva on June 12, 2013, 09:51:11 PM
I saw something odd over the weekend in Maryland.  Flashing left-red-arrow with an auxiliary sign stating "Left Turn Yield after Stop." 

I believe it was here in North Bethesda -- http://goo.gl/maps/B3F7Q -- this must be a rather recent phenomenon as it's not depicted in the street view.

Does this exist anywhere else in MD?

-Dan

Never seen it in MD, but Delaware has the same basic thing. At some intersections on roads like US 13, US 113, and DE 1, you can turn left on red after stopping, which is denoted by signs and double red signals. Ian Ligget has a YouTube video that shows the signals and sign:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 13, 2013, 01:36:22 AM
Quote from: DSS5 on June 12, 2013, 03:55:46 PM
The only place I've seen it is where US 421 and 221 split on the way out of Boone.

Visit Charlotte then.  There was almost one at every intersection!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on June 13, 2013, 10:48:00 PM
Quote from: dfnva on June 12, 2013, 09:51:11 PM
I saw something odd over the weekend in Maryland.  Flashing left-red-arrow with an auxiliary sign stating "Left Turn Yield after Stop." 

I believe it was here in North Bethesda -- http://goo.gl/maps/B3F7Q -- this must be a rather recent phenomenon as it's not depicted in the street view.

Does this exist anywhere else in MD?

-Dan

I've definitely seen them, although some are only part time (i.e. most of the time, they function as normal turn signals).  Examples of full-time signals include the ramp from MD 65 North to I-70 East in Hagerstown, and one on US 301 south of La Plata.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 14, 2013, 09:10:52 PM
It appears there may be some flashing yellow arrows coming to Koke Mill Road on the west side of Springfield, IL, though it may be some other device I'm not thinking of. 

http://co.sangamon.il.us/Departments/RegionalPlanning/documents/Transportation/SATS/Documents/TIP/2013-2016/Ad%20Mod%206%20-%20City%20HSIP.pdf (http://co.sangamon.il.us/Departments/RegionalPlanning/documents/Transportation/SATS/Documents/TIP/2013-2016/Ad%20Mod%206%20-%20City%20HSIP.pdf)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: busman_49 on June 15, 2013, 07:04:26 PM
Quote from: jjakucyk on June 18, 2010, 11:26:15 AM
I get the feeling it'll be a while before they show up here in Ohio.  In fact, ODOT still doesn't want to acknowledge the requirement for red arrows.  They installed new signals on US-52 east of Cincinnati back in April, and the protected left still uses a red ball and "Left Turn Signal" / "Left on Green Arrow Only" signs.  It's not even LED either!

Saw my first one this past week in Dayton.  Pics:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/busman_49/sets/72157634131902168/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/busman_49/sets/72157634131902168/)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on June 28, 2013, 05:19:43 AM
They will not be happening here in Pennsylvania anytime soon per this tweet I got back from PennDOT:
https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/349264406217101312
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on June 28, 2013, 07:47:35 AM
Two years ago, Fayetteville, Arkansas said "never" to Flashing Yellow Arrows.  Yesterday, I observed 3 intersections with them.  One is a flashing arrow with no steady green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 14, 2013, 12:07:38 AM
I recently found a flashing yellow U-turn arrow on SB WI 100 just south of the US 45 overpass.  Unfortunately, I didn't get a picture of it, and streetview is not up to date in the area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on July 14, 2013, 09:36:34 AM
According to Jason Ilyes, there are now some FYA signals along TN 153 in Hixson around the entrances to malls and shopping centers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on July 14, 2013, 09:29:00 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 14, 2013, 12:07:38 AM
I recently found a flashing yellow U-turn arrow on SB WI 100 just south of the US 45 overpass.  Unfortunately, I didn't get a picture of it, and streetview is not up to date in the area.

Sounds like the same one I saw a few months back...https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8471.0 (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=8471.0)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on July 14, 2013, 11:16:35 PM
I observed 2 or 3 FYA's in Little Rock this weekend, but Fort Smith appears to the state capitol of FYA's in Arkansas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 14, 2013, 12:45:36 AM
Washington County is starting to suppress the permissive flashing yellow arrow when a potential pedestrian conflict exists.   According to the article, the flashing yellow arrow won't come on for drivers waiting to turn left when a conflicting pedestrian "walk" or "flashing don't walk" is active. 

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/04/oregon_traffic_study_widesprea.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/04/oregon_traffic_study_widesprea.html)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on August 14, 2013, 02:34:23 PM
I saw an odd set-up at AR 5  and US 67/167 in Cabot over the weekend:

Traffic heading south on AR 5 has a signal as does traffic exiting US 67 to go south on 5

NB 5 has no signal, but SB 5 to NB 67, has a permanent Flashing Yellow ONLY.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: amroad17 on August 14, 2013, 11:25:29 PM
Just this week, flashing yellow left turn signals were installed at seven intersections on Turkeyfoot Road from I-275 south to the western Richardson Road split here in Northern Kentucky.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DSS5 on August 15, 2013, 07:29:36 AM
Quote from: DSS5 on June 12, 2013, 03:55:46 PM
The only place I've seen it is where US 421 and 221 split on the way out of Boone.

I recently witnessed another one on Brawley School Road in Moorseville, NC.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jdb1234 on August 16, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
Saw one in downtown Huntsville this afternoon, the first one I have ever seen in Alabama.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DSS5 on August 17, 2013, 07:35:13 AM
Also the recently-installed traffic light (:angry:) at NC 105 and Poplar Grove Road in Boone has this feature.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: algorerhythms on August 19, 2013, 11:04:22 AM
There's a new light configuration I noticed last weekend at the corner of Jenkins and Imhoff in Norman, OK. It's a T-intersection where Imhoff ends at Jenkins, so all traffic must turn right or left. The Google Street View (https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.189496,-97.441649&spn=0.004761,0.010568&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.189499,-97.441549&panoid=dAvRGU29z6n0mc4q10R1QQ&cbp=12,85.59,,0,8.59) shows the old configuration: the cycle went Red-Green Arrow-Yellow Arrow-Red. They've since changed it to Red-Flashing Yellow Arrow-Yellow Arrow-Red. This confused me when I went through that intersection last weekend, because I interpret Flashing Yellow Arrow to mean "there is an opposing traffic movement that you need to yield to," except in this case there is no such movement as far as I can tell.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on August 19, 2013, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: jdb1234 on August 16, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
Saw one in downtown Huntsville this afternoon, the first one I have ever seen in Alabama.

Which intersection?

EDIT: It appears to be Clinton Ave at the SB Memorial Pkwy ramp, according to this press release (http://www.huntsvilleal.gov/engineering/NewsReleases/FYA-ClintonSBA.pdf).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on August 19, 2013, 02:43:15 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on August 19, 2013, 11:04:22 AM
There's a new light configuration I noticed last weekend at the corner of Jenkins and Imhoff in Norman, OK. It's a T-intersection where Imhoff ends at Jenkins, so all traffic must turn right or left. The Google Street View (https://maps.google.com/?ll=35.189496,-97.441649&spn=0.004761,0.010568&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.189499,-97.441549&panoid=dAvRGU29z6n0mc4q10R1QQ&cbp=12,85.59,,0,8.59) shows the old configuration: the cycle went Red-Green Arrow-Yellow Arrow-Red. They've since changed it to Red-Flashing Yellow Arrow-Yellow Arrow-Red. This confused me when I went through that intersection last weekend, because I interpret Flashing Yellow Arrow to mean "there is an opposing traffic movement that you need to yield to," except in this case there is no such movement as far as I can tell.
MUTCD also considers pedestrians a conflicting movement if there is a crosswalk in the way of that movement as pedestrians have the right of way.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 19, 2013, 07:11:24 PM
QuoteMUTCD also considers pedestrians a conflicting movement if there is a crosswalk in the way of that movement as pedestrians have the right of way.

To reduce the potential for a pedestrian conflict, don't run the flashing yellow arrow when a conflicting pedestrian phase is running and make it protected only.  When there isn't a pedestrian actuation, revert back to the permissive flashing yellow arrow.  Does anybody like this setup?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jdb1234 on August 19, 2013, 08:35:41 PM
Quote from: codyg1985 on August 19, 2013, 02:04:46 PM
Quote from: jdb1234 on August 16, 2013, 09:27:27 PM
Saw one in downtown Huntsville this afternoon, the first one I have ever seen in Alabama.

Which intersection?

EDIT: It appears to be Clinton Ave at the SB Memorial Pkwy ramp, according to this press release (http://www.huntsvilleal.gov/engineering/NewsReleases/FYA-ClintonSBA.pdf).

That would be correct.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SFPredsFan on August 19, 2013, 08:44:18 PM
I saw one for the 1st time anywhere when I went to Lexington this weekend and didn't know what the hell to do. There was no signs saying flashing yellow means you have the right of way turning left. In Canada, a flashing green light means it's the same as a  green arrow but it's uniform across the entire county. It's going to be a real mess if some states or just some cities use it but others don't. Make it nationally or don't do it at all.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 04:21:25 AM
Quote from: SFPredsFan on August 19, 2013, 08:44:18 PM
I saw one for the 1st time anywhere when I went to Lexington this weekend and didn't know what the hell to do. There was no signs saying flashing yellow means you have the right of way turning left. In Canada, a flashing green light means it's the same as a  green arrow but it's uniform across the entire county. It's going to be a real mess if some states or just some cities use it but others don't. Make it nationally or don't do it at all.

You don't have the right of way turning left if you have a flashing yellow arrow. It means you have to yield to oncoming traffic. You only have the right of way with a green arrow.

And the flashing yellow arrow is in the national MUTCD.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Alex on August 25, 2013, 10:52:02 AM
Saw a new one (to me at least) yesterday on US 19 southbound at 38th Avenue North (CR-138) in Pinellas County, FL.

(//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/southeast/us-019_sb_app_38th_av_n.jpg) (//www.aaroads.com/forum_images/southeast/us-019_sb_app_38th_av_n.jpg)

A photo crop on the railroad bridge where the FYA is illuminated. Unfortunately this intersection now includes a photochop, which was not the case in 2011.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2013, 07:11:24 PM
To reduce the potential for a pedestrian conflict, don't run the flashing yellow arrow when a conflicting pedestrian phase is running and make it protected only.  When there isn't a pedestrian actuation, revert back to the permissive flashing yellow arrow.  Does anybody like this setup?

I don't, because on a long crosswalk, the turning vehicle may be waiting when the ped or bicyclist may have already cleared the half of the roadway the vehicle would be turning into.  Also, what happens if the ped is walking parallel to the main street and pushes the button while there is no cross traffic to bring up the side street phases, but plenty of opposing through traffic to prevent a vehicle from making a safe left turn?   You could be reintroducing the yellow trap for a left turning vehicle.

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 04:21:25 AM
Quote from: SFPredsFan on August 19, 2013, 08:44:18 PM
I saw one for the 1st time anywhere when I went to Lexington this weekend and didn't know what the hell to do. There was no signs saying flashing yellow means you have the right of way turning left. In Canada, a flashing green light means it's the same as a  green arrow but it's uniform across the entire county. It's going to be a real mess if some states or just some cities use it but others don't. Make it nationally or don't do it at all.

I thinks this illustrates nicely one of the linger doubts I have about the FYA setup; many places have had a flashing yellow indication mean other traffic would have a flashing red, and it may take a while for some drivers to be retrained to the new meaning.

You don't have the right of way turning left if you have a flashing yellow arrow. It means you have to yield to oncoming traffic. You only have the right of way with a green arrow.

And the flashing yellow arrow is in the national MUTCD.

I think this illustrates one of the doubts I have with the FYA setup.  For years flashing yellow has indicated that other traffic had a flashing red.  Now we have changed it so the meaning of the color varies with the shape (arrow versus ball).  I could see this being an issue for some of those with many years of driving experience under the old paradigm.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
I think this illustrates one of the doubts I have with the FYA setup.  For years flashing yellow has indicated that other traffic had a flashing red.  Now we have changed it so the meaning of the color varies with the shape (arrow versus ball).  I could see this being an issue for some of those with many years of driving experience under the old paradigm.

It has never done anything of the sort. Yes, most of the time there's been a flashing red to go with the flashing arrow, but it's only ever indicated "proceed with caution". Any observation anyone has made beyond that isn't something the DOT can do anything about.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 01:54:04 PM
^ The DOT can elect to not use the flashing yellow/flashing red intersection beacons or mode of traffic signal operation, as Illinois has.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on August 25, 2013, 02:27:31 PM
On the new MO 150 on the south side of Kansas City

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5447%2F9588205046_00ea144ff5.jpg&hash=77cff2d7251bf0698a5186f1c8586724da5cd25c) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/richiekennedy56/9588205046/)
47462 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/richiekennedy56/9588205046/) by richiekennedy56 (http://www.flickr.com/people/richiekennedy56/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on August 25, 2013, 02:53:02 PM
^^ The signage would indicate that a U-turn is not allowed on the FYA phase instead of what i think is the intent of allow the U-turn after yielding to oncoming traffic?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 25, 2013, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
I think this illustrates one of the doubts I have with the FYA setup.  For years flashing yellow has indicated that other traffic had a flashing red.  Now we have changed it so the meaning of the color varies with the shape (arrow versus ball).  I could see this being an issue for some of those with many years of driving experience under the old paradigm.

It has never done anything of the sort. Yes, most of the time there's been a flashing red to go with the flashing arrow, but it's only ever indicated "proceed with caution". Any observation anyone has made beyond that isn't something the DOT can do anything about.

It's more than just doubt to me at this point.   In Macomb County, MI there has been a 30% increase in injury accidents at intersections that have been converted to the FYA.  The FYAs aren't new to this region, with widespread installations beginning around 2007.  You would think that injury accidents would level off to the pre-FYA levels once the general public gets use to driving them but this hasn't been the case.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on August 25, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
Indeed, couldn't someone needing to u-turn wind up wasting the whole FYA phase waiting for a green arrow, while everyone behind them has to wait?  Seems like something outside the intent of the FYA.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again....flashing green is really wasted.  It would be appropriate for situations like what the FYA is being used for.  It's a shame that with only three colors, circles and balls, and steady and flashing, leading to limited combinations, that flashing green is not allowed when it probably could be used for something like what FYA means, leaving flashing yellow for something else like its preexisting meanings.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 25, 2013, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on August 25, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
It's a shame that with only three colors, circles and balls, and steady and flashing, leading to limited combinations, that flashing green is not allowed when it probably could be used for something like what FYA means, leaving flashing yellow for something else like its preexisting meanings.

If the FYA wasn't already confusing enough to the general public, let's add a flashing green to the mix.  I don't see the benefit of complicating the FYA any more than it already is.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on August 25, 2013, 04:00:01 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 25, 2013, 03:37:19 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on August 25, 2013, 03:07:57 PM
It's a shame that with only three colors, circles and balls, and steady and flashing, leading to limited combinations, that flashing green is not allowed when it probably could be used for something like what FYA means, leaving flashing yellow for something else like its preexisting meanings.

If the FYA wasn't already confusing enough to the general public, let's add a flashing green to the mix.  I don't see the benefit of complicating the FYA any more than it already is.

The horse is out of the stable for sure.  I mean in the first place--if it could all be done over again from the start, flashing green should have been saved for certain uses like this.  It's too late to replace FYA with FGA, especially when FYA basically replaces what a green circular signal has always meant for left turning traffic anyway.  There are certainly situations where it would be nice to let left turns go while holding thru traffic, but Dallas phasing never caught on elsewhere and the extra signal face(s) are probably a discouragement too, especially to local agencies.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mergingtraffic on August 25, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 25, 2013, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
I think this illustrates one of the doubts I have with the FYA setup.  For years flashing yellow has indicated that other traffic had a flashing red.  Now we have changed it so the meaning of the color varies with the shape (arrow versus ball).  I could see this being an issue for some of those with many years of driving experience under the old paradigm.

It has never done anything of the sort. Yes, most of the time there's been a flashing red to go with the flashing arrow, but it's only ever indicated "proceed with caution". Any observation anyone has made beyond that isn't something the DOT can do anything about.

It's more than just doubt to me at this point.   In Macomb County, MI there has been a 30% increase in injury accidents at intersections that have been converted to the FYA.  The FYAs aren't new to this region, with widespread installations beginning around 2007.  You would think that injury accidents would level off to the pre-FYA levels once the general public gets use to driving them but this hasn't been the case.

Exactly, we were taught that anything "yellow"  means that our right of way is coming to an end.  Usually you have yellow or a yellow arrow after a green or green arrow.  And if you do have a yellow arrow that means your protected left turn (right of way) is coming to an end.

Now, with the FYA, it means you don't have the right of way.  That, to me, could mean problems with people darting out thinking,"well hey my side is yellow and that means my right of way is ending."

Case is point from the Oregon Live article:
"Last month, Porter's wife, Shari, suffered minor injuries after her sister attempted to turn left at the flashing yellow arrow from the Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway to Oregon 217. His sister-in-law didn't know the oncoming traffic had a green, he said.

Instead of yielding, she turned into the path of an approaching car that hit her  SUV, sending it rolling until it came to rest upside-down against a sign pole.

"These flashing arrows  definitely improve traffic flow,"  Porter said. "But I have to ask: At what price?"  "

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/04/oregon_traffic_study_widesprea.html
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on August 25, 2013, 04:52:06 PM
A flashing green arrow would be confusing to Canadian drivers as a flashing green arrow there means it is a protected turning phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on August 25, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
Quote from: doofy103 on August 25, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Exactly, we were taught that anything "yellow"  means that our right of way is coming to an end.  Usually you have yellow or a yellow arrow after a green or green arrow.  And if you do have a yellow arrow that means your protected left turn (right of way) is coming to an end.

That's been my problem with the flashing yellow arrow since its inception. It's an even bigger problem in cases where the flashing yellow arrow is part of a three-headed signal tower (RA, YA, FYA). For the color blind, how are they to know the bottom was not a green arrow, thus thinking that when the solid yellow arrow is active, a protected phase is coming to an end?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Alps on August 25, 2013, 07:57:55 PM
Quote from: doofy103 on August 25, 2013, 04:26:28 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 25, 2013, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 12:10:27 PM
I think this illustrates one of the doubts I have with the FYA setup.  For years flashing yellow has indicated that other traffic had a flashing red.  Now we have changed it so the meaning of the color varies with the shape (arrow versus ball).  I could see this being an issue for some of those with many years of driving experience under the old paradigm.

It has never done anything of the sort. Yes, most of the time there's been a flashing red to go with the flashing arrow, but it's only ever indicated "proceed with caution". Any observation anyone has made beyond that isn't something the DOT can do anything about.

It's more than just doubt to me at this point.   In Macomb County, MI there has been a 30% increase in injury accidents at intersections that have been converted to the FYA.  The FYAs aren't new to this region, with widespread installations beginning around 2007.  You would think that injury accidents would level off to the pre-FYA levels once the general public gets use to driving them but this hasn't been the case.

Exactly, we were taught that anything "yellow"  means that our right of way is coming to an end.  Usually you have yellow or a yellow arrow after a green or green arrow.  And if you do have a yellow arrow that means your protected left turn (right of way) is coming to an end.

Now, with the FYA, it means you don't have the right of way.  That, to me, could mean problems with people darting out thinking,"well hey my side is yellow and that means my right of way is ending."

Case is point from the Oregon Live article:
"Last month, Porter's wife, Shari, suffered minor injuries after her sister attempted to turn left at the flashing yellow arrow from the Beaverton-Hillsdale Highway to Oregon 217. His sister-in-law didn't know the oncoming traffic had a green, he said.

Instead of yielding, she turned into the path of an approaching car that hit her  SUV, sending it rolling until it came to rest upside-down against a sign pole.

"These flashing arrows  definitely improve traffic flow,"  Porter said. "But I have to ask: At what price?"  "

http://www.oregonlive.com/commuting/index.ssf/2013/04/oregon_traffic_study_widesprea.html

So she wasn't watching what the other car was doing at all. It's a shame that all the injuries didn't happen to the driver too stupid to watch traffic. I don't care what my signal says I can do, I'm watching what you're doing to make sure I have room to do what I'm allowed to do.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 08:53:36 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on August 25, 2013, 04:00:01 PM
Exactly, we were taught that anything "yellow"  means that our right of way is coming to an end.  Usually you have yellow or a yellow arrow after a green or green arrow.  And if you do have a yellow arrow that means your protected left turn (right of way) is coming to an end.

I wonder if upping the flashing rate on the yellow arrow might work better?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 10:15:32 PM
Quote from: US 41 on April 25, 2013, 01:17:36 PM
I thought INDOT wasn't going to use it. It's sort of confusing. Not enough people in the USA understand what it means. They don't have any in Terre Haute yet and I hope they don't put any any here. They will cause wrecks.

It appears INDOT may be deploying some FYA's soon; see the second and third presentations in http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/LTAP1/Training/Handout/Transportation%202013%20Presentation%20Slides.pdf (http://rebar.ecn.purdue.edu/LTAP1/Training/Handout/Transportation%202013%20Presentation%20Slides.pdf) (second presentation starts on Page 31, third presentation starts on Page 52)


Quote from: Scott5114 on August 25, 2013, 01:24:20 PM
It has never done anything of the sort. Yes, most of the time there's been a flashing red to go with the flashing arrow, but it's only ever indicated "proceed with caution". Any observation anyone has made beyond that isn't something the DOT can do anything about.
The excerpts of the Indiana Driver's Manual on Page 43 and 44 indicate the change in meaning for flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on August 25, 2013, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 10:15:32 PM
The excerpts of the Indiana Driver's Manual on Page 43 and 44 indicate the change in meaning for flashing yellow.

And how many people are going to notice (outside of the roadgeek community & Drivers' Ed classes)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on August 26, 2013, 03:17:25 AM
Quote from: DaBigE on August 25, 2013, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 25, 2013, 10:15:32 PM
The excerpts of the Indiana Driver's Manual on Page 43 and 44 indicate the change in meaning for flashing yellow.

And how many people are going to notice (outside of the roadgeek community & Drivers' Ed classes)?

More communities should do what Norman did when they deployed FYAs–first there was a test intersection (12th Ave SE & Lindsey), then there was a pamphlet about the new signals mailed out with the water bill. All FYAs have a sign to the right of them reading "Left Turn Yield On Flashing (yellow arrow graphic)".

As a result, everyone seems to be on the same page with FYAs in Norman.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 26, 2013, 10:41:21 AM
I won't be satisfied until all lights are flashing.  And then we can add different flash rates.  Then the lights can alternate flashing.  Add in some flashing arrows as well.  Don't forget about the street lights as well.  And billboards - especially those LED ones. The roads better look like a damn carnival with all the flashing lights.  And I hope there's a truck selling cotton candy on the shoulder.  With flashing lights.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on September 29, 2013, 12:15:12 PM
Look like the first FYA for Indiana will be up soon:
http://www.pal-item.com/article/20130925/NEWS01/309250012/New-turn-light-coming-intersection-Richmond-s-west-side?nclick_check=1 (http://www.pal-item.com/article/20130925/NEWS01/309250012/New-turn-light-coming-intersection-Richmond-s-west-side?nclick_check=1)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on September 29, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
So far there are no FYA signals in South Carolina, however, FYAs have pretty much taken over North Carolina
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMoses24 on October 01, 2013, 02:52:33 AM
A FYA made it to Fort Mitchell, Kentucky on Dixie Highway at I-75, exit 188. It is at the entrance ramp to southbound 75 from northbound Dixie Highway. Spotted it on Saturday, didn't realize in time to get a photo.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on October 01, 2013, 08:38:38 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on September 29, 2013, 01:48:49 PM
So far there are no FYA signals in South Carolina, however, FYAs have pretty much taken over North Carolina

US 158 looks like a disco through the Kitty Hawk area...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Indyroads on October 02, 2013, 12:21:15 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 29, 2013, 12:15:12 PM
Look like the first FYA for Indiana will be up soon:
http://www.pal-item.com/article/20130925/NEWS01/309250012/New-turn-light-coming-intersection-Richmond-s-west-side?nclick_check=1 (http://www.pal-item.com/article/20130925/NEWS01/309250012/New-turn-light-coming-intersection-Richmond-s-west-side?nclick_check=1)

Yaaay its about time


Fixed quote. (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4000.0) - rmf67
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 18, 2013, 01:02:20 AM
http://articles.mcall.com/2013-10-10/news/mc-red-arrow-pa-20131010_1_arrow-traffic-lights-signals

That article above talks about why PennDOT hasn't "approved" the flashing yellow lights here in the state yet....

QuotePennDOT Harrisburg spokesman Rich Kirkpatrick said engineers felt that the state Vehicle Code doesn't adequately explain or define how the driver is to respond to the flashing-yellow arrow, resulting in possible confusion. In fact, not only does the law fail to give an adequate explanation, but it offers no explanation at all, that I could find. The steady yellow "indication," as the code describes it, is the only one defined.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on October 18, 2013, 05:12:22 PM
I'll side with PennDOT on that...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Thing 342 on October 19, 2013, 03:19:48 PM
Not sure if this has been mentioned before, but VDOT put up a whole bunch of FYA signals along US-60/Warwick Blvd near the CNU campus in Newport News as part of a reconstruction project.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on November 03, 2013, 02:37:45 PM
So what's the point of showing a solid red arrow at the end of the protected phase and making left turning traffic come to halt for a few seconds. Was this something they always thought would be desirable on protected / permissive installations but wasn't possible to do until the FYAs. (And Mn/DOTs new cluster signals for option lanes still don't do this).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 01:19:21 PM
I've never encountered one in person, but it sounds like a Flashing Red Arrow would be more effective than the FYA, maybe a Delaware native who has experienced both can give their opinion.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on November 04, 2013, 02:34:27 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 01:19:21 PM
I've never encountered one in person, but it sounds like a Flashing Red Arrow would be more effective than the FYA, maybe a Delaware native who has experienced both can give their opinion.
I agree with you PColumbus.  The problem is a Flashing Red Arrow, at least in theory, requires drivers to come to a complete stop before making a permissive left turn.  In practice, Delaware drivers don't come to a complete stop when encountering a flashing red arrow when there is a safe gap in traffic.   I would rather have Delaware drivers bend the rules (roll through a flashing red arrow when there is a safe gap in traffic) than have a driver pull out in-front of oncoming traffic because they are confused with the meaning of the flashing yellow arrow. 

By solving a problem that only existed in theory, they are creating a bigger problem that exists in practice.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 03:19:20 PM
Agreed, in general practice, a flashing yellow (a beacon or out-of-service traffic light) indicates that you have the right of way. A flashing red indicates you have to stop and proceed if safe to do so. I think this is the confusion that many drivers are having with the FYA.

It sounds like Delaware drivers treat a flashing red arrow as a yield sign, which would make sense in cases where the oncoming traffic volume wouldn't warrant a full-time protected left turn signal.

I'd like to see a switch from the FYA to the Flashing Red Arrow, although, in South Carolina, we use a double-red left turn signal for one-lane protected left turns, which looks EXACTLY like the Delaware Flashing Red Arrow. Maybe the FRA could be a 4-section tower like the FYA, or have a single red arrow that alternates, as the MUTCD allows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on November 05, 2013, 03:44:31 AM
Delaware drivers do indeed treat the flashing red arrow as a yield sign.  Technically, the driver is supposed to come to a full stop before proceeding. However, in real world situations, unless there is oncoming traffic, pedestrians, or a cop around drivers tend to slow down and turn.

It should also be noted that left turn bays in Delaware are often angled at the intersection so that the stop bar is 45 degrees in relation to oncoming traffic.  This allows drivers at the stop bar to better view oncoming traffic, even if a large vehicle is attempting to turn left from the opposite direction. I've personally always liked this setup and have often assumed it's why there's often flashing red arrows, as opposed to fully protected.  The flashing red arrow also allows flexibility.  Certain times of the day the signal can be fully protected.  Then during off peak hours switched to flashing red arrow (protected/permissive). 

I will refrain from commenting on the flashing yellow arrow since I have not yet driven through an intersection (or even watched one live) to see how they work in real traffic situations.  I've only seen videos, and I like the idea.  However, I never realized that a permissive left turn (after yielding to oncoming traffic) on a green ball was so confusing to drivers. It's not like this is uncommon at minor intersections.  With that said, the flashing yellow arrow seems a bit redundant.  I'm gonna agree with tradephoric here and say the flashing red is more clear.  Regardless of what is used, driver interpretation will vary.  Perhaps what is needed is a refresher course for drivers as to what signal indications mean for one's intended movement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on November 05, 2013, 10:22:34 AM
I've passed through intersections with the FYA in North Carolina, and it doesn't seem like there has been difficulty understanding it. Maybe if the NCDOT releases a study done on accidents before and after installing the FYA we'll know if that signal is beneficial or not.

Does Delaware use the flashing red arrow solely on rural, divided highways or can they be seen on streets where the doghouse has normally been?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 05, 2013, 03:02:40 PM
Outside of where I went to college, there was a dual-left turn lane with a flashing red arrow.  This was your standard lane configuration, not the 45' angle type that signalman pointed out. Definitely not rural, but rather a suburban area.  (The flashing left arrow has since been removed, and is now a regular protected left turn.)

In many cases, the flashing arrow is in suburban locations like I mentioned above, and can be seen where single and dual left turn lanes exist.  When they are converted, they generally are converted to protected left turns, but I guess a doghouse would work as well, depending on engineering determinations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on November 05, 2013, 03:22:01 PM
One is most likely to encounter the flasjing red arrows on an arterial in Delaware.  Generally the speed limit is 45 or more, hence why DelDOT opted for the flashing red for permissive turns.  It placed emphasis on the need to stop, then proceed when clear, as oncoming traffic is likely to be moving quite fast. 

If you were asking where they are likely to be used because you want to see one live and in action.  Just take a trip down US 13.  They are used along the US 13 corridor in all 3 counties.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 06, 2013, 01:43:20 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on November 04, 2013, 03:19:20 PM
Agreed, in general practice, a flashing yellow (a beacon or out-of-service traffic light) indicates that you have the right of way. A flashing red indicates you have to stop and proceed if safe to do so. I think this is the confusion that many drivers are having with the FYA.

Flashing yellow does not assign automatic right of way, but is a proceed with caution message. The confusion/disdain that some seem to have with FYA comes from this.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Alex4897 on November 07, 2013, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: signalman on November 05, 2013, 03:22:01 PM
One is most likely to encounter the flasjing red arrows on an arterial in Delaware.  Generally the speed limit is 45 or more, hence why DelDOT opted for the flashing red for permissive turns.  It placed emphasis on the need to stop, then proceed when clear, as oncoming traffic is likely to be moving quite fast. 

If you were asking where they are likely to be used because you want to see one live and in action.  Just take a trip down US 13.  They are used along the US 13 corridor in all 3 counties.

DE 4 has one just west of DE 72 and DE 2 has one just east of DE 7.  I feel like there's more scattered around northern New Castle County.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DeaconG on November 07, 2013, 01:53:05 PM
US 1 in Titusville has two of them now, at Knox-McRae and Country Club; said installation also eliminated the right lane thru green arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on November 07, 2013, 03:33:46 PM
Quote from: Alex4897 on November 07, 2013, 07:16:24 AM
Quote from: signalman on November 05, 2013, 03:22:01 PM
One is most likely to encounter the flasjing red arrows on an arterial in Delaware.  Generally the speed limit is 45 or more, hence why DelDOT opted for the flashing red for permissive turns.  It placed emphasis on the need to stop, then proceed when clear, as oncoming traffic is likely to be moving quite fast. 

If you were asking where they are likely to be used because you want to see one live and in action.  Just take a trip down US 13.  They are used along the US 13 corridor in all 3 counties.

DE 4 has one just west of DE 72 and DE 2 has one just east of DE 7.  I feel like there's more scattered around northern New Castle County.
Yes, New Castle County has the most FRA installations.  Particularly northern NC, as was noted.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on November 07, 2013, 03:44:42 PM
A major 2007 study (NCHRP web only document 123) analyzed the safety benefits of the FYA at over 50 installations.  The following conclusions were made in the study:

Quote-  Safety was improved at intersections that operated with PPLT phasing prior to field implementation of the FYA permissive indication with PPLT phasing.   
-  Safety was not improved at intersections that operated with protected only left-turn phasing prior to field implementation of  the FYA permissive indication with PPLT phasing.   
-  No conclusions could be made at intersections that operated with permissive only left-turn phasing prior to implementation of the FYA indication, due to a minimal number of implementation sites and data.  The installation of the FYA indication at sites which currently operate PPLT signal phasing showed improvements in safety.  In other locations, the change in left-turn signal phasing had a more significant impact on safety than the change in left-turn indication, although safety appeared to improve with time.

Research has suggested that the FYA permissive indication is safer and better understood by drivers than other permissive indications in use today; including the "doghouse"  circular green, the flashing circular red, the flashing circular yellow, and the flashing red arrow.  However, research has also shown that the change in left-turn signal phasing has more of an impact on safety than the change in left-turn permissive indication.  Since the FYA provides a lot more flexibility than other permissive indications, it's quite common for the left-turn signal phasing to change when the FYA is introduced. 

To show how un-flexible other permissive indications can be, consider Michigan's flashing red ball.  The flashing red ball has been used at permissive-protected left-turns (PPLTs) in Michigan since around 1975.  In nearly all cases, the protected left-turn green arrow will lag the permissive flashing red ball.  In addition, the protected left-turn green arrow will always cycle regardless of detection.  This is done to prevent a flashing red ball from going straight into a solid red ball with no clearance, causing a potentially dangerous situation.  Essentially, the PPLTs used in Michigan aren't very efficient but they are safe as drivers are guaranteed a protected left-turn green arrow to clear out of the intersection at the end of the permissive phase.

Since the introduction of the FYA in SE Michigan, there has been a noticeable increase in injury accidents at intersections that have been converted to the FYA.  When comparing the before/after crash data provided by SEMCOG, there has been up to a 30% increase in injury accidents at new FYAs.  In addition, there has been up to a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which is a type of accident that can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation.  The rise in injury accidents and head-on left-turn accidents is likely due to the fact that the left-turn signal phasing has changed.  In Oakland County, the FYA left-turn signal phasing has leading PPLTs that are allowed to skip (with this setup drivers get stuck in the middle of the intersection at the end of the permissive phase, forcing them to "sneak" through during the yellow change interval just as the opposing through traffic is trying to clear the intersection as well).  In Macomb County, the FYA left-turn signal phasing has lagging PPLTs that are allowed to skip (while this doesn't create a yellow trap, this does create a potentially dangerous situation known as the perceived yellow trap).   The new FYA left-turn phasing is likely leading to the increase in crash rate, not necessarily the type of indication being used.

Is the FYA permissive indication inherently dangerous?  I don't think so.  However, the FYA provides a lot more flexibility in regards to the left-turn signal phasing.  This flexibility may indirectly be leading to increased accidents at FYA installations.  There is a benefit of having more flexible left-turn signal phasing, mainly reduced driver delay.  It just needs to be understood that a reduction in driver delay often leads to an increase in accidents.  The argument can be made that the FYA is reducing driver delay in SE Michigan, but based on the crash data it's very hard to argue that the FYA is making intersections any safer.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on November 18, 2013, 04:28:32 PM
Came across a report that speaks to the point that Michigan drivers basically ignore the legal meaning of the flashing red ball  (i.e drivers don't come to a complete stop).
QuoteEvaluation of Traffic Signal Displays for Protected-Permitted Left Turn Control NCHRP Project 3-54
The exception to these results was the three-section vertical display with a flashing red ball permitted indication which is used in Oakland County, Michigan.  Although drivers are legally required to stop before making a permitted left-turn, Oakland County drivers seemed to interpret the meaning of the flashing red ball permitted indication  to be  the  same  as  the yellow or green permitted  indications.  Several law enforcement officers were observed during the data collection process, none of which found it necessary to enforce (i.e ticket) this legal requirements.  In fact, many of these same law enforcement officers were observed violating the stop requirement themselves.  Clearly, drivers in Oakland County have an implied meaning of the flashing red ball permitted indication that is different than intended, which adds difficulty for non-local drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on November 21, 2013, 09:02:45 AM
Just did a quick scan and a search so I don't think it's been mentioned yet, but Vermont now has the Flashing Yellow Arrow as well.  We passed by one example on VT 117 during the Burlington road meet a couple weekends ago.  There's also an installation on VT 116 in Hinesburg.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on November 21, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
I believe that it is the new norm for all new installations for protected left turns.  What gets me is we have some intersections with the signal heads for the yellow flasher, but it is never used.  Two intersections along Orange Blossom Trail have a provision for a left turn flasher, yet the red arrow is on whenever the green arrow is not  at both of these (with the exception of when the light is red of course).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on November 21, 2013, 11:25:47 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 21, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
I believe that it is the new norm for all new installations for protected left turns.  What gets me is we have some intersections with the signal heads for the yellow flasher, but it is never used.  Two intersections along Orange Blossom Trail have a provision for a left turn flasher, yet the red arrow is on whenever the green arrow is not  at both of these (with the exception of when the light is red of course).
Minnesota is like this too. 4 head sections are used for all dedicated turn lanes, including the FYA sign, even if the FYA is never used, like on MN 13 through Savage. Better to put up an extra cheap plastic traffic light section now than decide you want to change the phasing later and have to bring out a full truck and work crew and replace the head and wiring.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on November 21, 2013, 04:57:29 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on November 21, 2013, 11:25:47 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on November 21, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
I believe that it is the new norm for all new installations for protected left turns.  What gets me is we have some intersections with the signal heads for the yellow flasher, but it is never used.  Two intersections along Orange Blossom Trail have a provision for a left turn flasher, yet the red arrow is on whenever the green arrow is not  at both of these (with the exception of when the light is red of course).
Minnesota is like this too. 4 head sections are used for all dedicated turn lanes, including the FYA sign, even if the FYA is never used, like on MN 13 through Savage. Better to put up an extra cheap plastic traffic light section now than decide you want to change the phasing later and have to bring out a full truck and work crew and replace the head and wiring.
Have either of you been through the intersections mentioned during an off peak time? (Late at night)  It is possible the FYA might only operate when traffic is light.  It might default to protected only at other times.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on November 21, 2013, 09:32:19 PM
I drive through Savage several times a week to get to my parents house. I haven't been there at say 3:00 AM, but it operates in protected only mode as late as around midnight.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on December 09, 2013, 10:11:40 PM
It appears IDOT District 6 (Springfield) may be moving ahead with switching to flashing yellow arrows, possibly starting with a section of Wabash in Springfield:
http://www.springfieldcityclerk.com/Ordinances/2013/2013-415/2013-415.pdf (http://www.springfieldcityclerk.com/Ordinances/2013/2013-415/2013-415.pdf) - See near the bottom of Page 3/6.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on December 10, 2013, 10:03:39 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 09, 2013, 10:11:40 PM
It appears IDOT District 6 (Springfield) may be moving ahead with switching to flashing yellow arrows, possibly starting with a section of Wabash in Springfield:
http://www.springfieldcityclerk.com/Ordinances/2013/2013-415/2013-415.pdf (http://www.springfieldcityclerk.com/Ordinances/2013/2013-415/2013-415.pdf) - See near the bottom of Page 3/6.

That will make two districts, District 4 (Peoria) and District 6 (Springfield) with them.  We'll see if District 1 (Schaumburg), District 2 (Dixon), or District 3 (Ottawa) adopt them.  I think CDOT will be a major holdout though.  They still use some very non-MUTCD compliant signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on December 10, 2013, 10:29:41 AM
I would like to see how NJ is going to do it.  Basically with the doghouse or tower they use them on both sides of the roadway, as per NJ likes signal heads to be on both sides of the roadway except for Left Turn Signals for obvious reasons.

I guess, it will have to worked as a full left turn signal set up, that means we will see two signal heads with the flashing left turn arrow.  NJ, like IL, likes to have a backup LTS on the far left corner, so I imagine that you will see a flashing left arrow on the far corner as well as overhead.  I am also guessing that IDOT will do the same with theirs when all gets implemented?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on December 10, 2013, 11:15:44 AM
Quote from: roadman65 on December 10, 2013, 10:29:41 AM
I would like to see how NJ is going to do it.  Basically with the doghouse or tower they use them on both sides of the roadway, as per NJ likes signal heads to be on both sides of the roadway except for Left Turn Signals for obvious reasons.

I guess, it will have to worked as a full left turn signal set up, that means we will see two signal heads with the flashing left turn arrow.  NJ, like IL, likes to have a backup LTS on the far left corner, so I imagine that you will see a flashing left arrow on the far corner as well as overhead.  I am also guessing that IDOT will do the same with theirs when all gets implemented?

Yes.  IDOT District 4 has been mounting them on the left side as well as overhead.  IDOT's policies mandate a minimum of three signals per direction and two signals per turning movement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on December 12, 2013, 10:23:49 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 10, 2013, 10:03:39 AM
That will make two districts, District 4 (Peoria) and District 6 (Springfield) with them.  We'll see if District 1 (Schaumburg), District 2 (Dixon), or District 3 (Ottawa) adopt them.  I think CDOT will be a major holdout though.  They still use some very non-MUTCD compliant signals.

District 1 won't adopt them unless Springfield or FHWA freeze all of District 1's funding to force them to.  The flashing yellow arrow will more likely spread through District 1 as other local agencies see how Kane County handles them (counting that the installations on Randall Road don't go horribly wrong).  My money's on McHenry County adopting them next.

I wouldn't be surprised if CDOT adopted the flashing yellow arrow for right turn signals as part of some pedestrian safety measure.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Indyroads on December 20, 2013, 02:11:08 AM
I find it interesting that INDOT will be mounting the 4 phase FYA signals in the horizontal position rather than vertical. This may cause confusion as these are implemented since we are not used to horizontally mounted signals in the state. I dont understand why they cannot be mounted vertically on a span wire mount.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on December 21, 2013, 09:12:44 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22306412@N07/11414138855/in/photostream/
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm6.staticflickr.com%2F5481%2F11414138585_4b31381f6b_c.jpg&hash=bd165e14f1ef9328577a9c6faace5a26b5747862)

I see in this one, that California has adopted them and even explains to the motorists what it means in action.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on December 26, 2013, 10:45:50 AM
I'm surprised to see California using them. Outside of LA, I don't know if I've ever seen a protected/permissive turn setup in CA.

Locally, FDOT is putting up more of them, this time on the portion of Babcock St (SR-507) just north and south of the US192 intersection that's being reworked. They're also the first signals around here to have yellow borders around the black backplates.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: David Jr. on January 08, 2014, 08:14:03 PM
Toward the end of 2013, my hometown of Mount Vernon, MO installed a flashing yellow arrow at the I-44/MO-39/BL I-44 interchange.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on January 09, 2014, 08:52:28 AM
QuoteI'm surprised to see California using them. Outside of LA, I don't know if I've ever seen a protected/permissive turn setup in CA.

Several exist(ed?) in San Diego, using a 5-lens doghouse on the mast arm (and 5-lens vertical on the left side), but I haven't been to SD since 2008.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JKRhodes on February 09, 2014, 09:03:59 PM
I take issue with opinions and policies that cite the 2007 study as the "be-all, end-all" with regard to the safety and efficiency of the FYA for left turns.

The FYA has been in Tucson for years to allow right turns while cross traffic has a green arrow to turn left. It's commonly understood to indicate that it is clear to turn right, other than the occasional vehicle making a U-turn on said green arrow, in which case the vehicle making the U-turn has right of way. The energy and injury potential are relatively low, as a vehicle turning right and a vehicle making a U-turn are both traveling at relatively low speed. In this particular application, the flashing yellow arrow has a distinctive meaning. It doesn't mean the same thing as a green ball, a green arrow, or a red light.

OTOH, I've seen the FYA pop up in a few places for left turns, and it means exactly the same thing as a doghouse assembly, except that when the FYA is followed by a SYA, it can give a driver the mistaken impression that a protected left turn is coming to an end, encouraging said driver to make the turn without regard for oncoming traffic and cause an accident. The potential for injury is much greater in this application.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on February 10, 2014, 09:56:51 PM
I'd like to see the four-section FYA for right turns. There are some 3-section FYAs at Dupont Circle in Washington DC
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DaBigE on February 11, 2014, 12:22:43 AM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on February 10, 2014, 09:56:51 PM
I'd like to see the four-section FYA for right turns. There are some 3-section FYAs at Dupont Circle in Washington DC

Madison, WI has at least two 4-section FYAs for right turns...two at intersections along E Washington Ave (US 151), near East Towne Mall. Unfortunately, GSV doesn't have recent-enough imagery to show them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Katavia on February 12, 2014, 04:44:13 PM
It's made it to NC. One instance is at Poplar Tent Rd @ Harris Rd. It is a annoyance at the least from Harris Rd heading away from NC-73 at 7:00 in the morning.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on February 13, 2014, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: ncfriend on February 12, 2014, 04:44:13 PM
It's made it to NC. One instance is at Poplar Tent Rd @ Harris Rd. It is a annoyance at the least from Harris Rd heading away from NC-73 at 7:00 in the morning.

It's been in NC for at least 3 years in the Charlotte area.  This one (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=35.332501,-80.745671&spn=0.00716,0.016512&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.332562,-80.745903&panoid=4M2T-T3xC_NccK6nyzJZpA&cbp=12,278.01,,1,-1.02) is the first one I ever encountered.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 6a on February 14, 2014, 06:49:00 PM

Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 13, 2014, 10:32:59 PM
Quote from: ncfriend on February 12, 2014, 04:44:13 PM
It's made it to NC. One instance is at Poplar Tent Rd @ Harris Rd. It is a annoyance at the least from Harris Rd heading away from NC-73 at 7:00 in the morning.

It's been in NC for at least 3 years in the Charlotte area.  This one (https://www.google.com/maps?ll=35.332501,-80.745671&spn=0.00716,0.016512&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=35.332562,-80.745903&panoid=4M2T-T3xC_NccK6nyzJZpA&cbp=12,278.01,,1,-1.02) is the first one I ever encountered.
There was one at Johnston and 485 installed just before I moved away, that would have been 2004 or so.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JoePCool14 on February 18, 2014, 07:12:33 PM
If not yet mentioned:

It hasn't, isn't and never will make it to Illinois.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on February 20, 2014, 12:15:46 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 18, 2014, 07:12:33 PM
If not yet mentioned:

It hasn't, isn't and never will make it to Illinois.

False:  I know for a fact that there are or were Flashing Yellow Arrow signals in Peoria.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on February 20, 2014, 10:56:13 AM
Quote from: route56 on February 20, 2014, 12:15:46 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 18, 2014, 07:12:33 PM
If not yet mentioned:

It hasn't, isn't and never will make it to Illinois.

False:  I know for a fact that there are or were Flashing Yellow Arrow signals in Peoria.

Yep.  District 4 (Putnam, Marshall, Woodford, Tazewell, Peoria, Stark, Fulton, Knox, Warren , Henderson, Mercer, & McDonough Counties) is in love with them.  None of the other (1-3 and 5-9) IDOT districts use them yet as far as I know.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on February 25, 2014, 07:46:51 PM
I saw one one on business rte. 41 in Vincennes. The cloverleaf in Vincennes doesn't need to be upgraded. The speed limit does need to be raised to 65. The speed limit needs to be raised to 65 in Sullivan and Shelburn especially (currently it is 50 in those towns). Frontage roads have been built in Sullivan County and businesses have not been allowed to just build on the highway. Farmersburg is the exception and the 50 mph speed limit through there is appropriate for that town.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 26, 2014, 06:54:17 PM
I saw this (http://goo.gl/lck2BG) in Olympia/Lacey, Washington yesterday (the capital):

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FIbTFeIr.png&hash=c2b5fadd376c9004a5c859f914c3c71e0c475fa5)

Yes, I know, "but that clearly isn't flashing, yellow or otherwise". It is now. Recent installation but I live to far away to go back and snap a photo.

Lacey has the 3-arrow setup on their website (here (http://goo.gl/bwV8xK)); this is the only installation in Washington State (that I know of) where there is 3-arrows instead of 4. Plenty of cities have a 4-arrow setup, but 3 is apparently extremely rare (though not in Oregon of course).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JoePCool14 on February 26, 2014, 07:09:12 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 20, 2014, 10:56:13 AM
Quote from: route56 on February 20, 2014, 12:15:46 AM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 18, 2014, 07:12:33 PM
If not yet mentioned:

It hasn't, isn't and never will make it to Illinois.

False:  I know for a fact that there are or were Flashing Yellow Arrow signals in Peoria.

Yep.  District 4 (Putnam, Marshall, Woodford, Tazewell, Peoria, Stark, Fulton, Knox, Warren , Henderson, Mercer, & McDonough Counties) is in love with them.  None of the other (1-3 and 5-9) IDOT districts use them yet as far as I know.

Yeah, maybe, I haven't ever been down there. So, I believe that. I think we need them up here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on February 26, 2014, 07:22:13 PM
not sure if I've mentioned this but about a year ago there popped up some on Magnolia Ave. in El Cajon.

this is very rare for California - usually we are strictly "protected or forbidden" with no permissive phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on February 27, 2014, 10:20:55 PM
Quote from: Brandon on February 20, 2014, 10:56:13 AM
Yep.  District 4 (Putnam, Marshall, Woodford, Tazewell, Peoria, Stark, Fulton, Knox, Warren , Henderson, Mercer, & McDonough Counties) is in love with them.  None of the other (1-3 and 5-9) IDOT districts use them yet as far as I know.

District 6 (Springfield) had some on the January letting for Wabash Avenue in Springfield (an unmarked state route).  Link to plans (http://eplan.dot.il.gov/desenv/011714/72F29-112/PLANS/)


Kane County was going to install some on Randall Road.  There was is a preliminary plan set posted online for those here (https://kdotqbs.countyofkane.org/uploads/attachments/17/Prefinal%20Plan%20Set-%20Randall%20Road%20HSIP%20Project%20-%201%20of%202.pdf)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: DandyDan on February 28, 2014, 12:18:56 AM
In Nebraska, southbound Nebraska Highway 31 has one for the eastbound I-80 entrance ramp, after the opening of the current version of the Nebraska Crossing mall, immediately NE of the interchange.

EDIT: drove out there this past weekend, saw the relevant light, though there is not one for northbound 31 to westbound I-80.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on March 01, 2014, 04:53:28 PM
So on a small stretch of Grant Rd in Tucson, the city recently turned the intersection at Oracle Rd into a "Michigan Left"...the areas to make left turns past the intersection use that FYA for the left turns. Maybe someday Tucson would use this type of signal more at all their intersections with permissive/protected dual left turn lanes.

Speedway Blvd in the area of the U of Arizona has FYA lefts at 3 intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on March 01, 2014, 05:31:59 PM
Wasn't a Michigan Left constructed at the intersection of Ina & Oracle?  Or is there more than one Michigan Left in Tuscon?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on March 01, 2014, 06:20:19 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on March 01, 2014, 05:31:59 PM
Wasn't a Michigan Left constructed at the intersection of Ina & Oracle?  Or is there more than one Michigan Left in Tuscon?

Yes. Ina and Oracle does have a Michigan Left. That intersection is not in the Tucson city limits. It's Pima County (Casas Adobes area, less than a mile south of the town of Oro Valley). All the left turns that can be done around there are protected left signals.

Eventually, as Tucson widens Grant Rd, there are Michigan Lefts planned at 1st Ave, Campbell Ave, Country Club Rd, Alvernon Way, and Swan Rd. These are the major mile intersections between Oracle and Swan. I don't know of any other Michigan Lefts planned in the Tucson area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on March 01, 2014, 06:26:57 PM
Just last week I saw FYA signals at Alma School and Ray Roads in Chandler.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on March 09, 2014, 10:17:30 PM
There are two new ones on WI 50 in Kenosha; one at 60th Avenue and the other at Cooper Road/52nd Avenue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on March 10, 2014, 03:27:30 PM
I've been in the Phoenix area over the last week, and the FYA signals are popping up all over the place. Mostly scattered around in the east valley cities, and near some freeway interchanges.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on March 11, 2014, 09:01:05 AM
QuoteLacey has the 3-arrow setup on their website (here); this is the only installation in Washington State (that I know of) where there is 3-arrows instead of 4. Plenty of cities have a 4-arrow setup, but 3 is apparently extremely rare (though not in Oregon of course).

A 3-lens FYA is fairly common in North Carolina at those locations where there is no protected phase.

Quotethis is very rare for California - usually we are strictly "protected or forbidden" with no permissive phase.

I recall seeing some protected-permitted in San Diego during my 2007-08 port visits.  Here's an example (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ajfroggie/13082429153/) from along Midway Dr.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on March 18, 2014, 12:14:30 AM
Saw quite a few FYAs in North Carolina this weekend in the Wilmington/Carolina Beach area.

GDOT has installed two FYAs in Forsyth County north of Atlanta in the past month and "FYA will now be Georgia DOT's preferred left turn traffic signal for eligible locations — those with high numbers of left-turn movements and resultant traffic back-ups and related accidents." http://www.dot.ga.gov/informationcenter/pressroom/PressReleases/SR9-3-6-14.pdf
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 18, 2014, 01:44:33 AM
Quote from: froggie on March 11, 2014, 09:01:05 AM
QuoteLacey has the 3-arrow setup on their website (here); this is the only installation in Washington State (that I know of) where there is 3-arrows instead of 4. Plenty of cities have a 4-arrow setup, but 3 is apparently extremely rare (though not in Oregon of course).

A 3-lens FYA is fairly common in North Carolina at those locations where there is no protected phase.

When I said "extremely rare" I was referring to Washington State alone. I am aware of other states using them (though not many; was not aware NC was in that group).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on March 19, 2014, 01:29:08 AM
Just saw a right-turn FYA for the first time in Oregon on Monday--it is (*surprise, surprise*) in Washington County, at the intersection of NW Cornell Road and NW Evergreen Pkwy/179th Ave.  The right-turn FYA is a three-lens (as are most of the installations in The WC now) on the westbound Cornell approach, and replaced a McCain Fresnel that had been there since the signal was installed in 1995.  It's also opposite a standard left-turn FYA, and the two signals' flashing is out of sync.  The county had been installing a bunch of straight five-lens right-turn signals in the past year--this one might be an experiment, though as crazy as they are about the FYA (we have several hundred of them, and they're at probably 85% of all signalized intersections here now), I suspect there will be more.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 19, 2014, 03:07:53 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on March 19, 2014, 01:29:08 AM
Just saw a right-turn FYA for the first time in Oregon on Monday <...> It's also opposite a standard left-turn FYA, and the two signals' flashing is out of sync.

I make the assumption that the flashing out of sync is more due to the phase activation in the cycle. I.e. the controller does flashes at a set rate (say 60 flashes/minute) and the flash starts at the moment the phase activates, so if the left arrow starts at 0 seconds and the right arrow starts at 1.5 seconds into the cycle, they are going to be half a second out of sync.

I've noticed differences in flashing between FYAs and flashing hands of pedestrian signals, which I suspect operate similarly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: txstateends on April 04, 2014, 07:48:30 PM
The first flashing yellow left arrow has been installed in Amarillo, as of late last month:
http://www.newschannel10.com/story/25095399/new-turning-arrow-to-help-traffic-flow-at-intersection-in-amarillo
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: talllguy on April 05, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
TLDR the entire thread, but 2011 MD MUTCD Section 4D.04 03E2: Flashing yellow arrow indications shall not be used in Maryland.

That pretty much settles that.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 06, 2014, 09:39:02 PM
I took a look at the one in Nebraska on SB NE 31 at the EB I-80 ramps.  The four-section head is mounted horizontally, and uses the text version of the 'left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow' sign.


North Liberty, Iowa, appears to have recently installed a few more on Penn Street between I-380 and former IA 965.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andy3175 on April 07, 2014, 12:10:56 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on October 02, 2012, 11:23:17 PM
Saw the FYA in Idaho and Wyoming during my Yellowstone trip.  I really like the concept and wish PennDOT would adopt to replace all the doghouse signals in Philly.

I'm not sure if this had been mentioned already ... A recent reconstruction (ca. 2008-2009) of Wyoming 59 through Gillette resulted in the installation of several FYA's along Douglas Highway from I-90 south past several signalized intersections for about a mile through the commercial strip (past a Wal Mart, K Mart, and a variety of other chain stores).

Regards,
Andy
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: KEK Inc. on April 07, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on March 19, 2014, 01:29:08 AM
Just saw a right-turn FYA for the first time in Oregon on Monday--it is (*surprise, surprise*) in Washington County, at the intersection of NW Cornell Road and NW Evergreen Pkwy/179th Ave.  The right-turn FYA is a three-lens (as are most of the installations in The WC now) on the westbound Cornell approach, and replaced a McCain Fresnel that had been there since the signal was installed in 1995.  It's also opposite a standard left-turn FYA, and the two signals' flashing is out of sync.  The county had been installing a bunch of straight five-lens right-turn signals in the past year--this one might be an experiment, though as crazy as they are about the FYA (we have several hundred of them, and they're at probably 85% of all signalized intersections here now), I suspect there will be more.

I know Beaverton has had them on OR-8 since 2007.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 07, 2014, 09:54:22 PM
It appears Kane County, IL, is hoping to install more FYA's on Randall Road around 2016, per this document (https://kdotqbs.countyofkane.org/uploads/attachments/37/SOI%20-%20Randall%20Road%20HSIP%20-%20Silver%20Glen%20N%20County%20Line.pdf) (assuming they ever get around to getting the first batch installed on Randall Road).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on April 09, 2014, 05:17:22 PM
There's been a change at the first FYA installation in Lawrence.

When the intersection of 19th and Louisiana was re-done, they installed left turn lanes in each direction, with East-West traffic on 19th having a protected-only signal (with a circular red) and North-South traffic on Louisiana having a protected/permitted signal using the FYA design. Recently, the Protected-only signals were converted to protected/permitted -- so now, the intersection has FYA signals in all four directions.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Eth on April 14, 2014, 10:07:49 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on March 18, 2014, 12:14:30 AM
GDOT has installed two FYAs in Forsyth County north of Atlanta in the past month and "FYA will now be Georgia DOT's preferred left turn traffic signal for eligible locations — those with high numbers of left-turn movements and resultant traffic back-ups and related accidents." http://www.dot.ga.gov/informationcenter/pressroom/PressReleases/SR9-3-6-14.pdf

On that note, I found one tonight on SR 124 at Pharrs Rd in Snellville. First one I've seen in the state.

Quote from: talllguy on April 05, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
TLDR the entire thread, but 2011 MD MUTCD Section 4D.04 03E2: Flashing yellow arrow indications shall not be used in Maryland.

That pretty much settles that.

Interesting. So does that mean the existing ones in Montgomery County have been/will be removed? I know there was at least one in place around 2010-11, I want to say on MD 117, at or near the intersection with either MD 118 or 119.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: txstateends on April 17, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
This new mast-arm signal just north of downtown Dallas (which replaced a tacky span-wire) is one of the first signals to use a blinking yellow left arrow in Dallas.  Since it is new to most around town, I would think at least a temporary helpful sign next to that part of the signal would be there to alert them, as other cities and areas have done.  Nope.  Just the signal.  Maybe the unfamiliar have to guess, or they've possibly seen media or online reports about the yellow arrow.  Either way, here it is but sorry if it looks like it's not working--it is, I just didn't snap at the right second I guess.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fpic60.picturetrail.com%2FVOL1724%2F9497942%2F24536499%2F409243535.jpg&hash=1f51e2651fdb19a2ef04eeffd31bd8c348d37e5e)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on April 17, 2014, 10:32:09 PM
Quote from: KEK Inc. on April 07, 2014, 02:52:50 AM
I know Beaverton has had them on OR-8 since 2007.

Yes, and they were some of the first in the state, but those are left-turn FYAs.  Cornell/Evergreen is (to my knowledge) the first right-turn FYA in the area.

Quote from: roadfro on March 19, 2014, 03:07:53 AM
Quote from: Tarkus on March 19, 2014, 01:29:08 AM
Just saw a right-turn FYA for the first time in Oregon on Monday <...> It's also opposite a standard left-turn FYA, and the two signals' flashing is out of sync.

I make the assumption that the flashing out of sync is more due to the phase activation in the cycle. I.e. the controller does flashes at a set rate (say 60 flashes/minute) and the flash starts at the moment the phase activates, so if the left arrow starts at 0 seconds and the right arrow starts at 1.5 seconds into the cycle, they are going to be half a second out of sync.

I've noticed differences in flashing between FYAs and flashing hands of pedestrian signals, which I suspect operate similarly.

I drive through that intersection with some regularity--several times a month--and it seems that there are some times when they are (seemingly) perfectly in sync, and others where they're blinking in alternation.  I'm guessing it probably has to do with phasing differences at different times of day, and possibly pedestrian usage (that intersection isn't pedestrian-heavy, but people do occasionally walk down there).  For reference, here's the intersection and approach in question (https://www.google.com/maps/@45.534732,-122.861365,3a,75y,265.41h,77.44t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1srDmhNko8A3vHYyI2SvF8FA!2e0).  The left-turn FYA had been installed by the time Google StreetView came through here, though the McCain fresnel is still in place for the right turn signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 28, 2014, 05:40:33 PM
On SB Big Bend Road at MO 100/Manchester Road there is now a flashing yellow right turn arrow.

Side note:  the Missouri MUTCD does not allow FYA's for right turns - see http://epg.modot.mo.gov/index.php?title=902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_%28MUTCD_Chapter_4D%29#902.5.31_Signal_Indications_for_Permissive_Only_Mode_Right-Turn_Movements_.28MUTCD_Section_4D.22.29 (http://epg.modot.mo.gov/index.php?title=902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_%28MUTCD_Chapter_4D%29#902.5.31_Signal_Indications_for_Permissive_Only_Mode_Right-Turn_Movements_.28MUTCD_Section_4D.22.29) (about 2/3 down from the top of the page)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: brickbuilder711 on May 30, 2014, 02:24:56 AM
I found several installs along Edgewood in Jacksonville, I believe, to have FYAs in a visit earlier this month
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on May 30, 2014, 06:34:37 PM
Texas has a few, including a few along dedicate Left Turn Lanes.
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/t1.0-9/10325791_10203102800043325_4219357754561156926_n.jpg)
(https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t1.0-9/10359165_10203102800083326_2238708794358205606_n.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 30, 2014, 06:49:07 PM
Quote from: US71 on May 30, 2014, 06:34:37 PM
Texas has a few, including a few along dedicate Left Turn Lanes.

^^^^

I don't recall ever seeing an electronic version of the "Left Turn Yield" sign...are you aware of why they chose said sign over a permanent "left turn yield on flashing yellow"?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tom958 on June 12, 2014, 07:07:48 PM
I am so confused.

While I was in Little Rock for a week, six intersections along Peachtree Road in Brookhaven (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.8707043,-84.3316328,16z) had their signals redone, or so it appears because they all have the new gold-edged black backplates. All of them are T intersections with two-lane roads ending at Peachtree. The southern four of them have doghouses for left turns, but the northern two have the new (to Georgia) four lens, yellow flashing arrow thing. How was it decided to use two different signal configurations for what really appears to be six instances of the same condition?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on June 14, 2014, 08:10:02 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fhwa.dot.gov%2Fpublications%2Fresearch%2Fsafety%2F04091%2Fimages%2Ffig029a.gif&hash=c3fde4b2bf11a273328b178517195787bf0cb3a5)

What exactly is the problem with this design? Flashing yellow arrows may not be confusing to us, but to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on June 14, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
IIRC, it's to try and eliminate the "Yellow Trap" that occurs with this style of cycle for signals:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhighwaydivides.com%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2Fe%2Fef%2FLeading-Lagging_Arrow.gif&hash=de238de913e559560d190bb39c22bbc4693f554a)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 14, 2014, 09:53:40 PM
Quote from: jake on May 30, 2014, 06:49:07 PM
I don't recall ever seeing an electronic version of the "Left Turn Yield" sign...

The Collinsville District of IDOT used to use those signs for some reason.

A surviving one on IL 161 in the Belleville area (https://www.google.com/maps?q=Cahokia,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.518607,-89.94494&spn=0.014673,0.033023&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=59.597077,135.263672&oq=cahoki&hnear=Cahokia,+St+Clair+County,+Illinois&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=38.518642,-89.944882&panoid=RvBB3IdDA5dAeUNtEaPK_g&cbp=12,54.68,,1,-19.01)

Another in on IL 3 in Dupo (https://www.google.com/maps?q=Cahokia,+IL&hl=en&ll=38.543668,-90.195308&spn=0.029336,0.066047&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=59.597077,135.263672&oq=cahoki&hnear=Cahokia,+St+Clair+County,+Illinois&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=38.543769,-90.195136&panoid=uF_74sGdBZbnc7YxWxG2UA&cbp=12,4.55,,2,-3.87)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 15, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on June 14, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
IIRC, it's to try and eliminate the "Yellow Trap" that occurs with this style of cycle for signals:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhighwaydivides.com%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2Fe%2Fef%2FLeading-Lagging_Arrow.gif&hash=de238de913e559560d190bb39c22bbc4693f554a)
I honestly don't understand why one would use that type of signal cycle.  If both directions have semi-protected turns, just give them their own phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Billy F 1988 on June 15, 2014, 11:52:02 AM
There are two FYA signals in Missoula at Brooks Street and Dore Lane and that's all we have at present.

Quote from: US 41to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.
Not quite. Yellow, IMO, means go with caution.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 15, 2014, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 15, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on June 14, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
IIRC, it's to try and eliminate the "Yellow Trap" that occurs with this style of cycle for signals:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhighwaydivides.com%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2Fe%2Fef%2FLeading-Lagging_Arrow.gif&hash=de238de913e559560d190bb39c22bbc4693f554a)
I honestly don't understand why one would use that type of signal cycle.  If both directions have semi-protected turns, just give them their own phase.

Split phasing a signal so that the opposing approaches comes on consecutively (I.E. SB through & LT is followed by NB through & LT) is inefficient.  Imagine in the animation, that the left turn movements require 15 seconds to clear, while the through movements require 30 seconds to clear.  In the animation, it would take 45 seconds to service the queued vehicles (15 seconds for SB Thru & LT + 15 seconds for SB & NB through + 15 seconds for NB Thru & LT).  If the signal split phased, it would require 60 seconds to service the queued vehicles (30 seconds for the SB Thru & LT + 30 seconds for the NB Thru & LT).


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 15, 2014, 06:24:31 PM
^ Split phasing is even more inefficient if during a cycle there are only through vehicles present but no left turning vehicles.

If the question was more along the lines of 'why not have the left turns go concurrently, but separate from the through movements,' the likely answer is that the agency in charge of the traffic signals was trying to improve coordination and did not see any reason to go to protected only (left on green arrow only) lefts.  Having the NB and SB lefts at different times in the cycle allows the through green indications to be better timed for the respective through movements if said through movements do not arrive concurrently from adjacent signalized intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 14, 2014, 08:10:02 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fhwa.dot.gov%2Fpublications%2Fresearch%2Fsafety%2F04091%2Fimages%2Ffig029a.gif&hash=c3fde4b2bf11a273328b178517195787bf0cb3a5)

What exactly is the problem with this design? Flashing yellow arrows may not be confusing to us, but to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.

The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 15, 2014, 08:11:35 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on June 15, 2014, 04:53:20 PM
Quote from: vdeane on June 15, 2014, 11:25:57 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on June 14, 2014, 09:01:44 PM
IIRC, it's to try and eliminate the "Yellow Trap" that occurs with this style of cycle for signals:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhighwaydivides.com%2Fwiki%2Fimages%2Fe%2Fef%2FLeading-Lagging_Arrow.gif&hash=de238de913e559560d190bb39c22bbc4693f554a)
I honestly don't understand why one would use that type of signal cycle.  If both directions have semi-protected turns, just give them their own phase.

Split phasing a signal so that the opposing approaches comes on consecutively (I.E. SB through & LT is followed by NB through & LT) is inefficient.  Imagine in the animation, that the left turn movements require 15 seconds to clear, while the through movements require 30 seconds to clear.  In the animation, it would take 45 seconds to service the queued vehicles (15 seconds for SB Thru & LT + 15 seconds for SB & NB through + 15 seconds for NB Thru & LT).  If the signal split phased, it would require 60 seconds to service the queued vehicles (30 seconds for the SB Thru & LT + 30 seconds for the NB Thru & LT).



I was thinking "NB & SB left only, then just the green ball for both directions".  That's how these signals work where I grew up.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 15, 2014, 08:51:20 PM
US41, there is nothing actually wrong with the "shared signal" configuration shown in your graphic. That arrangement is still permitted by the Manual as long as the doghouse is not directly over, or in-front-of the left-turn lane. It should be over the lane-line separating the left-turn lane and the left-thru lane.

I have to add that the rules in the Manual are confusing. It seems to also say (Sec. 4D-20.01-E) that the doghouse can be over the left-turn lane as long as all heads in the display simultaneously show the same circular indication. This effectively prohibits "Dallas Phasing".

The flashing-left-arrow replaces having the doghouse directly over the left-turn lane as shown in the animation. It also replaces the left-turn head used in "Dallas-Phasing". The reason for the flashing yellow-arrow requirement is that too many idiot drivers thought that a circular-green directly over the left-turn lane meant the same as a green left-turn arrow.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 11:46:16 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 15, 2014, 08:51:20 PM
I have to add that the rules in the Manual are confusing. It seems to also say (Sec. 4D-20.01-E) that the doghouse can be over the left-turn lane as long as all heads in the display simultaneously show the same circular indication. This effectively prohibits "Dallas Phasing".

That section describes a "shared" signal head, in which the circular indications in the doghouse must display the exact same as any adjacent circular indications. Support in Sec 4D.17-10-A states that such a signal head should be positioned over or slightly to the right of the left turn lane line.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2014, 01:24:20 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 15, 2014, 08:51:20 PMThe reason for the flashing yellow-arrow requirement is that too many idiot drivers thought that a circular-green directly over the left-turn lane meant the same as a green left-turn arrow.

I swear I've seen left turn lanes without an arrow but protected. It seems like a ridiculous idea, but I'm so sure I've seen it. It wouldn't follow the manual, but a lot of things in the US don't follow the manual, so it wouldn't be that surprising.

The signal, when in protected phase, looked like:

[GREEN BALL] [RED BALL] [RED BALL]
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 16, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 14, 2014, 08:10:02 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fhwa.dot.gov%2Fpublications%2Fresearch%2Fsafety%2F04091%2Fimages%2Ffig029a.gif&hash=c3fde4b2bf11a273328b178517195787bf0cb3a5)

What exactly is the problem with this design? Flashing yellow arrows may not be confusing to us, but to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.

The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2014, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 16, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 14, 2014, 08:10:02 PM

What exactly is the problem with this design? Flashing yellow arrows may not be confusing to us, but to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.

The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

"Proceed with caution" is something every driver should do at all times, regardless of the situation at hand. The flashing amber left turn arrow means "Yield to oncoming traffic, then proceed with caution".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on June 16, 2014, 06:18:19 PM
Quote from: jake on June 16, 2014, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 16, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
Quote from: US 41 on June 14, 2014, 08:10:02 PM

What exactly is the problem with this design? Flashing yellow arrows may not be confusing to us, but to the average driver a flashing yellow means go, not yield.

The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

"Proceed with caution" is something every driver should do at all times, regardless of the situation at hand. The flashing amber left turn arrow means "Yield to oncoming traffic, then proceed with caution".

Which is dumb. The 5 light signal head should be used. Everyone knows what that means. Left Turn Yield on Green is a lot simpler than flashing yellow arrows. I obviously am not confused by the flashing yellow arrow, but all the idiots on the road that don't pay attention (mostly women on their phones) will just go.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 16, 2014, 07:56:29 PM
You might be right US41; time will tell.

The more I read about the flashing yellow-arrow concept, the more I've come to realize that it seems to have evolved as a solution to the problems of Dallas Phasing, an odd practice used in Texas.

For those not familiar with it, in Dallas Phasing the thru lanes may be displaying a red-ball, while the left-turn signal displays a circular-green or green-ball. It meant that left turns could be made while yielding to opposing traffic, even though parallel thru traffic in the same direction was stopped. But too many drivers apparently took that green-ball to mean the same as a green-arrow.

So the flashing yellow-arrow is meant to replace that green-ball in the left-turn signal. In addition the Manual now mandates that all circular lights in the same direction, show the same indication simultaneously, effectively outlawing Dallas Phasing.

At least that's my take on this. If anyone knows something different, please correct me or add to what I've said. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 16, 2014, 08:11:45 PM
Yes, it is a replacement for Dallas phasing.  In my opinion, most drivers are programmed to believe that when they see a yellow light, opposing traffic also sees a yellow light and so they will complete a left turn, even though in reality the opposing traffic does not have a yellow light leading to red.  Hence, the yellow trap.

But I don't believe the flashing yellow  helps in this regard, because so many drivers are programmed to wait in the middle of the intersection to make their left turn and will turn as soon as they see adjacent traffic coming to a stop (and mistakenly concluding that opposing traffic also is coming to a stop), irrespective of what the signal may be saying.

I prefer the approach for lead/lag signals of having either a) protected only lead - protected only lag or b) protected only lead - protected/permissive lag.  Even though this may hurt left turn throughput, it is far safer and avoids the yellow trap completely.

Other safe possiblities are lead/lead and lag/lag using either doghouses (protected/permissive) or red arrows (protected only).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 16, 2014, 08:34:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 16, 2014, 07:56:29 PM
So the flashing yellow-arrow is meant to replace that green-ball in the left-turn signal. In addition the Manual now mandates that all circular lights in the same direction, show the same indication simultaneously, effectively outlawing Dallas Phasing.

Minor nitpick:  The 2009 MUTCD still allows right turn signals to deviate from that requirement for the red ball indication if those right turn signals are visibility restricted or have a 'right turn signal' sign (Section 4D.05, Paragraph 11)


Quote from: mrsmanI prefer the approach for lead/lag signals of having either a) protected only lead - protected only lag or b) protected only lead - protected/permissive lag.  Even though this may hurt left turn throughput, it is far safer and avoids the yellow trap completely.
Unfortunately for Option B, many jurisdictions object or seem to object to having one direction protected only while the opposing direction is protected-permitted.

Quote from: mrsmanOther safe possiblities are lead/lead and lag/lag using either doghouses (protected/permissive) or red arrows (protected only).

Permissive-protected lag-lag can still bring about the yellow trap if one direction receives the left turn arrow before the other.  Lead/lead and lag/lag still don't usually provide as good of coordination as lead/lag can.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 16, 2014, 10:05:15 PM
This was taken from an OTREC Webinar about the FYA. 

QuoteQ: What degree does the FYA solve the "yellow trap"  problem. And does Washington County lead the protected interval at FYA or lead/lag to benefit coordination?

A: The FYA completely solves the yellow trap problem, because now the left turn lane has its own display.  There is still the potential of the "perceived yellow trap"  which is when the driver in the left lane sees the adjacent through go solid yellow and thinks that the FYA is also ending.  It is called perceived, because the driver should focus on their own lane's signal control. Washington County prefers to lead the protected interval at FYA so if the protected left isn't needed then it can be skipped.  In a coordinated system we will lead or lag whichever benefits the coordination. (SS)

The FYA does solve the "yellow trap" problem.  A lot of the recent comments in this thread seem to be describing a "perceived yellow trap".  Apparently, Washington County prefers to lead their protected lefts at FYA's to prevent (or at least drastically reduce) the "perceived yellow trap".  However, leading lefts present their own safety problems.  Drivers are more prone to get "stuck" in the middle of the intersection and are forced to clear at the end of the permissive phase (just as opposing through traffic may be running their red light).

From a safety standpoint, it's hard to tell which type of FYA operation is actually safer (leading vs. lagging).  Arguments can be made from both sides.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on June 16, 2014, 11:00:58 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.

How about a red U-Turn Arrow?  Is there any place that uses them regularly and are They MUTCD compliant?  I have an intersection with a "temporary" red U-Turn arrow lens as the traffic light was installed before the new roadway was built.  I need to get a photo of it.  Bing nor Google have yet to update this intersection in Grand Junction.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on June 17, 2014, 08:26:19 AM
^^ A red U-turn arrow is MUTCD complaint.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wisvishr0 on June 17, 2014, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

While I'm sure you're right, as a new driver in Maryland, I was told (by a driver's ed instructor) that flashing yellow means "slow down and proceed with caution, but DO NOT STOP unless you have to -- you have the right of way." That's exactly what the instructor told us, and it's what I had in my notes. My dad concurred, saying that you need to proceed with caution because other people might turn in front of you and cut you off, but you have the right of way.

They probably teach it differently in other states, but I think the ambiguity is with the word "proceed" -- if they qualified it, (e.g. "proceed when there is no conflicting traffic") it would mean you didn't have the right of way, but otherwise, I have to agree that it doesn't make sense, unless you put a "Yield when flashing yellow" sign.

I guess that's why they banned them in Maryland. Here, we use a flashing red arrow to achieve the same thing, which I think is less ambiguous. Here, flashing red has ALWAYS meant: "stop, and give way IF anyone else doesn't have flashing red lights, or treat it like an all-way stop IF everyone else has flashing red lights." I would post a picture of an intersection with a flashing red arrow, but GSV hasn't updated the imagery there yet.

In general, I think the MUTCD better has to make a distinction between yielding, stopping and yielding, stopping and taking turns, and having the right of way. A flashing red sometimes means you yield, and sometimes means you take turns and go yourself if you got there quicker (as in a 4-way stop). A flashing yellow sometimes means you have the right of way, and sometimes means you don't. There has to be a better way to signpost these things...

ETA: I found this video of it in MD, although I'm not sure whether it allows for turns when there's no green for people going straight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2jZ62dLlY
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 17, 2014, 12:08:53 PM
Quote from: wisvishr0 on June 17, 2014, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

While I'm sure you're right, as a new driver in Maryland, I was told (by a driver's ed instructor) that flashing yellow means "slow down and proceed with caution, but DO NOT STOP unless you have to -- you have the right of way." That's exactly what the instructor told us, and it's what I had in my notes. My dad concurred, saying that you need to proceed with caution because other people might turn in front of you and cut you off, but you have the right of way.

Technically, this is how a green light works as well.  You definitely have the right of way on green, but if someone or something is in the middle of the intersection, you may want to consider hitting the brakes!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wisvishr0 on June 17, 2014, 12:23:47 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 17, 2014, 12:08:53 PM
Technically, this is how a green light works as well.  You definitely have the right of way on green, but if someone or something is in the middle of the intersection, you may want to consider hitting the brakes!

You're right. So is there actually a difference between a flashing yellow orb and a green light, other than the fact that cross traffic is allowed to go straight or turn left? Why not use a flashing green light for this, and let flashing yellow mean "give way without stopping," and flashing red mean "stop and give way"? Flashing yellow arrows wouldn't be ambiguous then, and I would be more comfortable with their implementation in MD. That's a major MUTCD shift, though, so I guess it should go in the "Daydreaming" threads.

I guess that's slightly off-topic. Sorry about that...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on June 17, 2014, 12:29:26 PM
^^ That would be confusing to visiting Canadian drivers, where a flashing green arrow means it is safe to turn as it is a protected phase there..
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wisvishr0 on June 17, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
I meant that flashing green orbs should be used instead of flashing yellow orbs, and flashing yellow orbs should mean "yield." So you wouldn't use a flashing green arrow (which would mean you had the right of way), but a flashing yellow arrow, but it would be more consistent with flashing yellow orbs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on June 17, 2014, 05:54:33 PM
Looks like Mississippi is joining the ranks of states using the Flashing Yellow Arrow, with several installations planned in Madison County. (http://sp.gomdot.com/Public%20Affairs/Lists/News%20Releases/Item/displayifs.aspx?List=ae1b236c%2D924d%2D498c%2Db14e%2Daafec6dc2864&ID=1229&ContentTypeId=0x010087606675CA7A95408B80E8BFBB944273)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Billy F 1988 on June 17, 2014, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: US 41
Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

Hey, US 41. Let me ask you something. "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield" is a notion I don't quite understand and I've been in Missoula all my life. I know what each full red/yellow/green color means but I am new to the FYA situation since Missoula now has an FYA phase at Dore Lane and Brooks Street. Please explain and clarify to the community this: Why do you think that "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield"?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on June 17, 2014, 07:50:44 PM
Yield means you don't have the right of way. Proceed with caution means you have the right of way, but be careful as you take advantage of that right of way. Until the FYA appeared, yellow lights always meant the latter.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on June 17, 2014, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 17, 2014, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: US 41
Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

Hey, US 41. Let me ask you something. "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield" is a notion I don't quite understand and I've been in Missoula all my life. I know what each full red/yellow/green color means but I am new to the FYA situation since Missoula now has an FYA phase at Dore Lane and Brooks Street. Please explain and clarify to the community this: Why do you think that "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield"?

Simple. When I approach an intersection and the light is flashing yellow, I go. A flashing yellow IMO is equivalent to a green. Either way you have to watch out for the occasional idiot that might pull out in front of you. You should proceed with caution at every intersection, but you shouldn't have to assume yield at every intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on June 18, 2014, 12:53:02 AM
Quote from: corco on June 17, 2014, 07:50:44 PM
Yield means you don't have the right of way. Proceed with caution means you have the right of way, but be careful as you take advantage of that right of way. Until the FYA appeared, yellow lights always meant the latter.

But the yellow hasn't changed meaning. When you're at a four-way intersection with a flashing yellow ball, if you turn left you have to yield to oncoming traffic. Of course the yellow ball doesn't inherently have the "yield" meaning; the fact you're turning across oncoming traffic is why you have to yield. And you'd have to yield even if there wasn't a flashing yellow ball; the flashing yellow ball is just to draw your attention to the fact that it's an intersection that requires more-than-ordinary caution.

Similarly the flashing yellow arrow indicates you can proceed through the intersection with caution, but since you're turning across oncoming traffic and it's not a protected turn with a solid green arrow, you have to yield (just as you'd have to yield on a left turn in any other permissive situation, e.g. solid green ball).

(Or tl;dr: flashing yellow is not an indication of any right-of-way relative to oncoming traffic, just right-of-way relative to traffic on cross-streets.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 18, 2014, 01:22:35 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 16, 2014, 11:00:58 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 05, 2012, 06:02:34 AM
The MUTCD specifically prohibits straight-ahead red arrows, which is why those are uncommon.

How about a red U-Turn Arrow?  Is there any place that uses them regularly and are They MUTCD compliant?  I have an intersection with a "temporary" red U-Turn arrow lens as the traffic light was installed before the new roadway was built.  I need to get a photo of it.  Bing nor Google have yet to update this intersection in Grand Junction.

There is a series of U-Turn arrows along 176 St near Puyallup, Wash:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F8C9bwg5.png&hash=8ce3bb6cacd87e914e85377274c6841b5f270d89)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 18, 2014, 02:00:56 AM
Quote from: US 41 on June 17, 2014, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 17, 2014, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: US 41
Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

Hey, US 41. Let me ask you something. "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield" is a notion I don't quite understand and I've been in Missoula all my life. I know what each full red/yellow/green color means but I am new to the FYA situation since Missoula now has an FYA phase at Dore Lane and Brooks Street. Please explain and clarify to the community this: Why do you think that "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield"?

Simple. When I approach an intersection and the light is flashing yellow, I go. A flashing yellow IMO is equivalent to a green. Either way you have to watch out for the occasional idiot that might pull out in front of you. You should proceed with caution at every intersection, but you shouldn't have to assume yield at every intersection.

A flashing yellow (arrow or ball) allows you to cautiously enter the intersection to proceed (either in direction of the arrow or in any direction allowed by the circular indication), and you must yield to any pedestrians or other traffic already lawfully within the intersection. (paraphrased from MUTCD Sec 4D.03 p03-E)

Compare to the MUTCD meaning of a yield (Sec 2B.08 p02): "The YIELD sign assigns right-of-way to traffic on certain approaches to an intersection. Vehicles controlled by a YIELD sign need to slow down to a speed that is reasonable for the existing conditions or stop when necessary to avoid interfering with conflicting traffic."

I think the confusion with the meaning of a flashing yellow comes from long-established use of red/yellow flash mode (i.e. "nighttime flash") where the major street gets a flashing yellow and the side street gets a flashing red. In this operation, drivers on the main street are assigned the right of way over other traffic (which has to come to a complete stop due to flashing red) but tend to treat the signal as a green light since there's usually little conflicting traffic to prompt the need for a complete stop. In those cases, a car on the main street facing the flashing yellow would still have to slow down and yield to a pedestrian in a crosswalk or a side street vehicle that was already in the intersection. (If you think about it, if the red/yellow flash were replaced with stop and yield signs, traffic would operate the same way.)

Quote from: wisvishr0 on June 17, 2014, 12:04:05 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 15, 2014, 07:11:18 PM
The average driver didn't learn it properly then... green means go, flashing yellow means proceed with caution.

While I'm sure you're right, as a new driver in Maryland, I was told (by a driver's ed instructor) that flashing yellow means "slow down and proceed with caution, but DO NOT STOP unless you have to -- you have the right of way." That's exactly what the instructor told us, and it's what I had in my notes. My dad concurred, saying that you need to proceed with caution because other people might turn in front of you and cut you off, but you have the right of way.
(...snip...)
I guess that's why they banned them in Maryland. Here, we use a flashing red arrow to achieve the same thing, which I think is less ambiguous. Here, flashing red has ALWAYS meant: "stop, and give way IF anyone else doesn't have flashing red lights, or treat it like an all-way stop IF everyone else has flashing red lights." I would post a picture of an intersection with a flashing red arrow, but GSV hasn't updated the imagery there yet.

In general, I think the MUTCD better has to make a distinction between yielding, stopping and yielding, stopping and taking turns, and having the right of way. A flashing red sometimes means you yield, and sometimes means you take turns and go yourself if you got there quicker (as in a 4-way stop). A flashing yellow sometimes means you have the right of way, and sometimes means you don't. There has to be a better way to signpost these things...

The Maryland Driver's Manual (http://www.mva.maryland.gov/_resources/docs/DL-002.pdf) on page 13 simply states for a flashing yellow "You must slow down and proceed with caution." No mention of automatic right of way. That same manual for flashing red says to come to a complete stop, then yield the right of way to all other traffic and pedestrians (pretty much the same thing it describes for stop signs).

The MUTCD did not use a flashing red arrow (instead of flashing yellow arrow) for the permissive left turns because the red arrow requires each and every vehicle to come to a complete stop prior to making the turn. A yellow arrow allows the yield condition--permitting multiple vehicles to turn at once if the way is clear, but also compelling a stop if the way is not clear.

A flashing red is a stop sign. A flashing yellow is a "cautiously proceed" (basically a yield). The MUTCD is pretty clear about the meanings.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 18, 2014, 02:11:18 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 16, 2014, 08:11:45 PM
Yes, it is a replacement for Dallas phasing.  In my opinion, most drivers are programmed to believe that when they see a yellow light, opposing traffic also sees a yellow light and so they will complete a left turn, even though in reality the opposing traffic does not have a yellow light leading to red.  Hence, the yellow trap.

But I don't believe the flashing yellow  helps in this regard, because so many drivers are programmed to wait in the middle of the intersection to make their left turn and will turn as soon as they see adjacent traffic coming to a stop (and mistakenly concluding that opposing traffic also is coming to a stop), irrespective of what the signal may be saying.

I prefer the approach for lead/lag signals of having either a) protected only lead - protected only lag or b) protected only lead - protected/permissive lag.  Even though this may hurt left turn throughput, it is far safer and avoids the yellow trap completely.

Other safe possiblities are lead/lead and lag/lag using either doghouses (protected/permissive) or red arrows (protected only).

If a driver is making a permissive left turn and has pulled into the intersection, they should not be bothered by what the adjacent traffic is doing or what that signal is displaying. They should be concentrating on the opposing traffic and the left lane signal that governs his/her own movement. That's what eliminates the yellow trap.

The lead/lag protected phasing with permitted lefts during the non-permitted phases tends to allow the most throughput when you have a coordinated arterial where dual-direction progression is desired. This was pretty much the impetus for developing Dallas Phasing to begin with. Lead/lead and lag/lag does not typically lend itself to good dual-direction progression unless the intersection is at an end of the coordinated corridor.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 18, 2014, 08:29:01 AM
Quote from: US 41 on June 17, 2014, 11:53:04 PM
Quote from: Billy F 1988 on June 17, 2014, 07:47:30 PM
Quote from: US 41
Yes... flashing yellow = green + "proceed with caution".....
But "proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield".

Hey, US 41. Let me ask you something. "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield" is a notion I don't quite understand and I've been in Missoula all my life. I know what each full red/yellow/green color means but I am new to the FYA situation since Missoula now has an FYA phase at Dore Lane and Brooks Street. Please explain and clarify to the community this: Why do you think that "Proceed with caution" DOES NOT MEAN "assume yield"?

Simple. When I approach an intersection and the light is flashing yellow, I go. A flashing yellow IMO is equivalent to a green. Either way you have to watch out for the occasional idiot that might pull out in front of you. You should proceed with caution at every intersection, but you shouldn't have to assume yield at every intersection.

Here's the Indiana law pertaining to flashing yellow: "(2) Flashing yellow (caution signal) means that when a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, a person who drives a vehicle may proceed through the intersection or past the signal only with caution."

My suggestion: If you are in an accident or a traffic stop involving a flashing yellow, don't tell the cop that you believe it has the same meaning as a green light.  It's not going to go in your favor.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on June 18, 2014, 09:02:15 AM
You still have the right of way if it flashing yellow. Whoever pulls out in front of the other vehicle and gets hit will be the one guilty of causing the accident.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wisvishr0 on June 18, 2014, 11:14:28 AM
Ahh, I see. I think it's a problem with the way I'm defining "yield." Yielding isn't only "letting people in the intersection go." It's also "letting people who are approaching the intersection go." If you approach a yield sign, you don't simply look at the intersection, but you also look at maybe 300 ft around the intersection to see if any cars will be in the intersection. That often means you have to slow down (nearly) to a stop so you can see around the corner. In a flashing yellow light (not arrow), you wouldn't slow down to a near stop to see if people are approaching the intersection from 300 ft away, and then go: you'd just see if anyone is in the intersection or about to pull up to the intersection, and then you'd go. Basically, yield=stop sign, except without stopping.

A flashing yellow arrow, however, means you have to look up the road a few hundred feet, just like a yield sign, and give way to approaching oncoming traffic. It's the same as a flashing red, except you don't have to stop. If you had the right of way (green arrow), you would only have to yield to people in the intersection already. So what's the difference between green and flashing yellow?

In fact, this is the definition of a green light in the Maryland Drivers manual:

"Proceed with caution after you have checked first to see that other vehicles have cleared
the intersection." ... "You must yield to pedestrians and vehicles already in the intersection."

A flashing yellow light is:
"You must slow down and proceed with caution."

Both say you must proceed with caution. If a green light means "proceed with caution," and a green light gives you the right of way, it's safe to assume that flashing yellow also means you have the right of way. Therefore, flashing yellow = green light. QED.

There's literally no difference (in the Maryland manual at least), except you don't have to slow down in a green light. That's why it's so confusing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr_Northside on June 18, 2014, 03:38:12 PM
I guess my main aversion is that I grew up learning that arrows were specifically for indicating protected turn movements.... but a FYA seems to use an arrow simply for indicating direction, without that "turn protection" which goes against what PA taught me. 
QuoteTherefore, flashing yellow = green light. QED
And an arrow modifier should make a FYA = green arrow.

Except for stop sign situations, where you can make any legal movement when it's your turn, you always yield to oncoming traffic... whether it's turning left into your driveway, an unsignalized intersection, a simple traffic signal with no turn lane, etc...  When do you NOT have to yield??  When you have an arrow.  More than just indicating direction, the essence of it's existence is to say that you can turn without yielding.  Until they invented the FYA... where you have the oxymoron of yielding to oncoming traffic despite having some kind of arrow.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 18, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
The meaning of the FYA has been debated for the past 3 pages in this thread (by people who probably read up on the MUTCD in their free time).  If that doesn't tell you how ambiguous the FYA is, then I don't know what does.  A flashing red arrow would have made more sense to your average driver.  A 3-year old understands Red means Stop.

Quote from: roadfro on June 18, 2014, 02:00:56 AM
The MUTCD did not use a flashing red arrow (instead of flashing yellow arrow) for the permissive left turns because the red arrow requires each and every vehicle to come to a complete stop prior to making the turn. A yellow arrow allows the yield condition--permitting multiple vehicles to turn at once if the way is clear, but also compelling a stop if the way is not clear.

In practice, drivers would ignore the legal meaning of a flashing red arrow and treat it as a "rolling stop" .  Michigan and Maryland already use a flashing red indication for their permissive left turns and drivers in those states don't come to a complete stop when there is no opposing traffic.  This driver behavior is detailed in a study that evaluated traffic signal displays for Protected-Permissive left turns:

QuoteEvaluation of Traffic Signal Displays for Protected-Permitted Left Turn Control NCHRP Project 3-54
The exception to these results was the three-section vertical display with a flashing red ball permitted indication which is used in Oakland County, Michigan.  Although drivers are legally required to stop before making a permitted left-turn, Oakland County drivers seemed to interpret the meaning of the flashing red ball permitted indication to be the same as the yellow or green permitted indications.  Several law enforcement officers were observed during the data collection process, none of which found it necessary to enforce (i.e ticket) this legal requirements.  In fact, many of these same law enforcement officers were observed violating the stop requirement themselves.  Clearly, drivers in Oakland County have an implied meaning of the flashing red ball permitted indication that is different than intended, which adds difficulty for non-local drivers.

A driver who has never encountered a flashing red arrow indication is likely to come to a full stop and assess the situation to determine if it's safe to proceed (red means stop in the back of their minds).  A driver who has never encountered a flashing yellow arrow may pull out in-front of oncoming traffic because they mistakenly believe they have the right-of-way (yellow means proceed in the back of their minds).  I know which scenario i would prefer.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: brickbuilder711 on June 18, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
On Google Earth, I noticed that Gainesville has been almost entirely converted to FYAs. I find it interesting and unusual, but wonder if it would have anything to do with it being a college town that just happened to create a rush to convert all lights to those FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on June 19, 2014, 01:59:11 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on June 18, 2014, 04:57:44 PM
In practice, drivers would ignore the legal meaning of a flashing red arrow and treat it as a "rolling stop" .

Which would be a revenue enhancement wet dream for every municipality with red light cameras. Rolling stops are illegal, period, and FHWA isn't going to design a traffic control device that is based on the concept "yeah, we really don't think anyone will obey the law, but whatevs."

Besides the optional supplementary regulatory sign is there for a reason, just like the "obvious" doghouse is regularly supplemented with the "left turn yield on green ball" sign (R10-12) and "obvious" solid-arrow signals are supplemented with "left turn signal" signs (R10-10L).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 19, 2014, 07:20:44 AM
^I fully understand why the FHWA didn't choose the Flashing Red Arrow, but from a safety perspective, it probably would have been a safer choice.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 21, 2014, 02:00:39 AM
Quote from: lordsutch on June 19, 2014, 01:59:11 AM
...and "obvious" solid-arrow signals are supplemented with "left turn signal" signs (R10-10L).

The supplemental "Left Turn Signal" signs are more a holdover from the transition to arrow signals in the first place. In many jurisdictions, the first left turn signals had a green arrow but circular red and yellow (potentially due to state laws governing display of red indications). Thus, a sign was needed to help explain the fact that a red ball and green ball could be displayed on the same approach at the same time. In most cases, the sign is no longer necessary as the left turn signals are more commonly seen as all-arrow displays.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tom895 on June 21, 2014, 02:38:21 AM
In Socal, there are a few cities that  have flashing yellow arrow signals. Torrance and Long Beach Started using them at some intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 22, 2014, 08:26:44 AM
Quote from: roadfro on June 18, 2014, 02:11:18 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 16, 2014, 08:11:45 PM
Yes, it is a replacement for Dallas phasing.  In my opinion, most drivers are programmed to believe that when they see a yellow light, opposing traffic also sees a yellow light and so they will complete a left turn, even though in reality the opposing traffic does not have a yellow light leading to red.  Hence, the yellow trap.

But I don't believe the flashing yellow  helps in this regard, because so many drivers are programmed to wait in the middle of the intersection to make their left turn and will turn as soon as they see adjacent traffic coming to a stop (and mistakenly concluding that opposing traffic also is coming to a stop), irrespective of what the signal may be saying.

I prefer the approach for lead/lag signals of having either a) protected only lead - protected only lag or b) protected only lead - protected/permissive lag.  Even though this may hurt left turn throughput, it is far safer and avoids the yellow trap completely.

Other safe possiblities are lead/lead and lag/lag using either doghouses (protected/permissive) or red arrows (protected only).

If a driver is making a permissive left turn and has pulled into the intersection, they should not be bothered by what the adjacent traffic is doing or what that signal is displaying. They should be concentrating on the opposing traffic and the left lane signal that governs his/her own movement. That's what eliminates the yellow trap.

The lead/lag protected phasing with permitted lefts during the non-permitted phases tends to allow the most throughput when you have a coordinated arterial where dual-direction progression is desired. This was pretty much the impetus for developing Dallas Phasing to begin with. Lead/lead and lag/lag does not typically lend itself to good dual-direction progression unless the intersection is at an end of the coordinated corridor.

I guess the real issue then is to be sure that drivers are in fact focusing solely on their FYA and ignoring what the adjacent traffic is doing. Are there any accident statistics yet for when FYAs are used to implement lead/lag protecive/permissive phasing? 

Very few flashing yellow or red arrows in my area.  The only one close to me that I sometimes turn at seems to always employ a lead protective/permissive left turn with a flashing red arrow.  (there used to be a doghouse there, but they changed it to flashing red arrow without adjusting the signal sequencing).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 22, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Quote from: mrsman link=topic=2983.msg307452#msg307452
I guess the real issue then is to be sure that drivers are in fact focusing solely on their FYA and ignoring what the adjacent traffic is doing. Are there any accident statistics yet for when FYAs are used to implement lead/lag protecive/permissive phasing? 

There has been roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs in SE Michigan (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).  All crash data obtained through SEMCOG:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FMCFYA2_zpsd7aed911.jpg%3Ft%3D1377098616&hash=5acfd0c0720169ed4efc582e33bf0864bdcaea21)

Since the introduction of the FYA, the left-turn signal phasing in SE Michigan has become much more complex (which likely explains the increase in injury accidents).  With Michigan's old style "flashing red ball" , drivers would never get stuck in the middle of the intersection because the protected left-turn phase would always come up after the through phase.  In addition, the lagging left turns were never allowed to skip.  This was done to prevent a flashing red ball going straight to a solid red ball with no clearance interval.  Any potential for "perceived yellow traps"  were eliminated since the left turns would come up together regardless of detection. 

With the introduction of the FYA in SE Michigan, drivers now routinely get "stuck"  in the middle of the intersection and can experience "perceived yellow traps" .  In addition, a change in the permissive indication color & symbol (from a "red"  ball to a "yellow"  arrow) may be confusing to some drivers (they may mistakenly believe that they have the right of way when coming up to flashing yellow indication).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 22, 2014, 02:20:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on June 22, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Quote from: mrsman link=topic=2983.msg307452#msg307452
I guess the real issue then is to be sure that drivers are in fact focusing solely on their FYA and ignoring what the adjacent traffic is doing. Are there any accident statistics yet for when FYAs are used to implement lead/lag protecive/permissive phasing? 


Since the introduction of the FYA, the left-turn signal phasing in SE Michigan has become much more complex (which likely explains the increase in injury accidents).  With Michigan's old style "flashing red ball" , drivers would never get stuck in the middle of the intersection because the protected left-turn phase would always come up after the through phase.  In addition, the lagging left turns were never allowed to skip.  This was done to prevent a flashing red ball going straight to a solid red ball with no clearance interval.  Any potential for "perceived yellow traps"  were eliminated since the left turns would come up together regardless of detection. 

With the introduction of the FYA in SE Michigan, drivers now routinely get "stuck"  in the middle of the intersection and can experience "perceived yellow traps" .  In addition, a change in the permissive indication color & symbol (from a "red"  ball to a "yellow"  arrow) may be confusing to some drivers (they may mistakenly believe that they have the right of way when coming up to flashing yellow indication).

It seems to me that if Michigan has a history of a flashing red ball to indicate permissive left turns, they probably should have followed Maryland and Delaware and used flashing red arrows instead of flashing yellow arrows.

Another important question with regard to these FYA set-ups is whether traffic from the northbound direction should be allowed to make a permissive left turn when the southbound direction has a green and a green arrow:

For instance the following sequencing:

Signal over NB thru, NB left, SB thru, SB left:

1) NB green, NB green arrow, SB red, SB permissive
2) NB green, NB yellow arrow, SB red, SB permissive
3) NB green, NB dark            , SB red, SB permissive [one second]
4) NB green, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
5) NB yellow, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
6) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive [one-second]
7) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB green arrow
8) NB red, NB permissive-yellow ball, SB yellow, SB yellow arrow
9) NB red, NB red ball,                         SB red,       SB red ball [one -second all-red clearance]
10) NB red, NB red ball,                       SB red,        SB red ball [cross-traffic right of way].

Could something like this work?  I'm thinking along the lines of a 5 head traffic signal over the left turn lane that is red ball-yellow ball-FYA-yellow arrow-green arrow.  The FYA will show when there is to be a permissive left turn.  The yellow ball over the FYA is to show to signal that the permissive phase is coming to an end and not leading to a protected phase.  If a driver could somehow ignore what adjacent drivers are doing, and focus instead on their own light, they may be able to realize that they are welcome to wait all the way until the all-red clearance to complete their turn, if they cannot find an appropriate gap earlier.  It's a lot like Dallas phasing, that for the left turning driver, the indication of the light facing the opposing driver is much more important than that facing the adjacent driver.

The key to avoiding the perceived yellow trap is what happens during signal phase #5.  The NB left turner must be able to ignore the fact that the NB thru drivers have a yellow signal.   The signal of the NB left turner doesn't change and he will continue to have a permissive left turn, even if the adjacent drivers have red.

I'm just not confident that most drivers out there can do this, and that we will still continue to see perceived yellow trap problems as a result.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 24, 2014, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 22, 2014, 02:20:18 PM
Another important question with regard to these FYA set-ups is whether traffic from the northbound direction should be allowed to make a permissive left turn when the southbound direction has a green and a green arrow:

For instance the following sequencing:

Signal over NB thru, NB left, SB thru, SB left:

1) NB green, NB green arrow, SB red, SB permissive
2) NB green, NB yellow arrow, SB red, SB permissive
3) NB green, NB dark            , SB red, SB permissive [one second]
4) NB green, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
5) NB yellow, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
6) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive [one-second]
7) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB green arrow
8) NB red, NB permissive-yellow ball, SB yellow, SB yellow arrow
9) NB red, NB red ball,                         SB red,       SB red ball [one -second all-red clearance]
10) NB red, NB red ball,                       SB red,        SB red ball [cross-traffic right of way].

Could something like this work?  I'm thinking along the lines of a 5 head traffic signal over the left turn lane that is red ball-yellow ball-FYA-yellow arrow-green arrow.  The FYA will show when there is to be a permissive left turn.  The yellow ball over the FYA is to show to signal that the permissive phase is coming to an end and not leading to a protected phase.  If a driver could somehow ignore what adjacent drivers are doing, and focus instead on their own light, they may be able to realize that they are welcome to wait all the way until the all-red clearance to complete their turn, if they cannot find an appropriate gap earlier.  It's a lot like Dallas phasing, that for the left turning driver, the indication of the light facing the opposing driver is much more important than that facing the adjacent driver.

The key to avoiding the perceived yellow trap is what happens during signal phase #5.  The NB left turner must be able to ignore the fact that the NB thru drivers have a yellow signal.   The signal of the NB left turner doesn't change and he will continue to have a permissive left turn, even if the adjacent drivers have red.

I'm just not confident that most drivers out there can do this, and that we will still continue to see perceived yellow trap problems as a result.

One of the benefits of the FYA design is that the permitted turns can be done without regard to what adjacent traffic is doing, i.e. when the signal operates in the permissive mode, it is tied to the opposing through movement. (In other words, a NB left FYA is flashing whenever the SB thru has a green.)

The signal operation you propose doesn't work because the signal you describe would combine circular indications with arrow indications in what sounds to be an exclusive left turn signal head display. The MUTCD now prohibits circular displays in dedicated left turn signal heads. Also, not sure that this would be a good visual cue to make the distinction between ending a permissive phase and going to red or going to protected (and I don't think that distinction is very important anyway).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on June 24, 2014, 05:53:10 PM
South Carolina is about to install a few FYAs. For single-lane protected left turns, SC uses double-red left turn signals. It would be interesting if South Carolina used a double-red flashing yellow arrow
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 27, 2014, 01:43:14 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 24, 2014, 04:09:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 22, 2014, 02:20:18 PM
Another important question with regard to these FYA set-ups is whether traffic from the northbound direction should be allowed to make a permissive left turn when the southbound direction has a green and a green arrow:

For instance the following sequencing:

Signal over NB thru, NB left, SB thru, SB left:

1) NB green, NB green arrow, SB red, SB permissive
2) NB green, NB yellow arrow, SB red, SB permissive
3) NB green, NB dark            , SB red, SB permissive [one second]
4) NB green, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
5) NB yellow, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive
6) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB permissive [one-second]
7) NB red, NB permissive, SB green, SB green arrow
8) NB red, NB permissive-yellow ball, SB yellow, SB yellow arrow
9) NB red, NB red ball,                         SB red,       SB red ball [one -second all-red clearance]
10) NB red, NB red ball,                       SB red,        SB red ball [cross-traffic right of way].

Could something like this work?  I'm thinking along the lines of a 5 head traffic signal over the left turn lane that is red ball-yellow ball-FYA-yellow arrow-green arrow.  The FYA will show when there is to be a permissive left turn.  The yellow ball over the FYA is to show to signal that the permissive phase is coming to an end and not leading to a protected phase.  If a driver could somehow ignore what adjacent drivers are doing, and focus instead on their own light, they may be able to realize that they are welcome to wait all the way until the all-red clearance to complete their turn, if they cannot find an appropriate gap earlier.  It's a lot like Dallas phasing, that for the left turning driver, the indication of the light facing the opposing driver is much more important than that facing the adjacent driver.

The key to avoiding the perceived yellow trap is what happens during signal phase #5.  The NB left turner must be able to ignore the fact that the NB thru drivers have a yellow signal.   The signal of the NB left turner doesn't change and he will continue to have a permissive left turn, even if the adjacent drivers have red.

I'm just not confident that most drivers out there can do this, and that we will still continue to see perceived yellow trap problems as a result.

One of the benefits of the FYA design is that the permitted turns can be done without regard to what adjacent traffic is doing, i.e. when the signal operates in the permissive mode, it is tied to the opposing through movement. (In other words, a NB left FYA is flashing whenever the SB thru has a green.)

The signal operation you propose doesn't work because the signal you describe would combine circular indications with arrow indications in what sounds to be an exclusive left turn signal head display. The MUTCD now prohibits circular displays in dedicated left turn signal heads. Also, not sure that this would be a good visual cue to make the distinction between ending a permissive phase and going to red or going to protected (and I don't think that distinction is very important anyway).

I think there does need to be some indication of a traffic light changing to a more restrictive phase, but not to a less restrictive phase.

Going from green to red, we have a yellow light as a warning that the green is coming to an end.  But in most of the US at least, we don't have a similar indication from red to green.  We don't need people jumping out of the gate as soon as the light turns green, since there could be other traffic that ran the red the other direction.  [Some countries do indicate this with a red+yellow]

For the lead side, we have a steady yellow arrow followed by a brief dark phase to indicate that we no longer have a protected left.  Similar to the current operation of doghouse lights with a lead protected arrow. 

But the left turners on the lead side also need an indication to know that the red light is coming.  Yes, while the lag side has a protected left, the lead side has a permissive left.  To indicate that the lagging protected left is ending, the lagging side sees a yellow arrow and then a red arrow, right before cross traffic comes through.

But what would the lead side see at this point?  How would they know that opposing traffic is now seeing the yellow ball and that they have to now make their left turn and clear the intersection before cross-traffic gets a green?  It needs to be different from a flashing yellow arrow (indicating permissive left).  It needs to be different from solid yellow arrow (indicating the end of a protected left turn).   

With regards to the yellow trap problem, the problem is that the lead side sees the yellow light when the adjacent thru phase is ending and believes that it means that opposing traffic's phase is also ending.  If we can successfully convince left turners to ignore the adjacent light, but put the yellow ball on the left turning light when the opposing traffic also sees the yellow ball, then we give the left turners the indication that they are used to.  The yellow light means that the red is coming and that the phase dedicated to cross-traffic is coming and that opposing traffic should be coming to a stop, so when they do, make a left turn.

There is no need for a singal indication from permissive to protected, since that is less restrictive.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on June 27, 2014, 08:20:42 PM
Regarding red to green, some kind of indicator of the change would help those of us with stick shifts to know when to take the car out of neutral.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on June 28, 2014, 02:31:57 PM
We have some intersections with the new 4 lens head that has two yellow arrows along with the standard amber one before the signal turns and the flasher yellow beneath it above the green, yet its used as a left turn signal without the flasher ever being used.  I do not understand why they install it if the purpose of its existence is not going to be used.

The new Wal Mart on Orange Blossom Trail and Oakridge Road uses the flasher yellow assembly without flashing the yellow.  Orange Blossom Trail at Taft-Vineland Road also has it as well as Central Florida Parkway at Orangewood Boulevard.  All of these new signals as two of them replaced old ones and the other is a new installation. Nonetheless do not use the flasher at all!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 28, 2014, 06:32:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 27, 2014, 01:43:14 PM
I think there does need to be some indication of a traffic light changing to a more restrictive phase, but not to a less restrictive phase.
<snip>
For the lead side, we have a steady yellow arrow followed by a brief dark phase to indicate that we no longer have a protected left.  Similar to the current operation of doghouse lights with a lead protected arrow.
Nevada uses a brief red phase to indicate the end of a leading protected left prior to the permissive phase. I think that is better than a dark signal. Anyway, theoretically speaking, this operation could omit the red/dark phase and go straight to flashing yellow arrow.

Quote from: mrsman
But the left turners on the lead side also need an indication to know that the red light is coming.  Yes, while the lag side has a protected left, the lead side has a permissive left.  To indicate that the lagging protected left is ending, the lagging side sees a yellow arrow and then a red arrow, right before cross traffic comes through.

But what would the lead side see at this point?  How would they know that opposing traffic is now seeing the yellow ball and that they have to now make their left turn and clear the intersection before cross-traffic gets a green?  It needs to be different from a flashing yellow arrow (indicating permissive left).  It needs to be different from solid yellow arrow (indicating the end of a protected left turn).   

With regards to the yellow trap problem, the problem is that the lead side sees the yellow light when the adjacent thru phase is ending and believes that it means that opposing traffic's phase is also ending.  If we can successfully convince left turners to ignore the adjacent light, but put the yellow ball on the left turning light when the opposing traffic also sees the yellow ball, then we give the left turners the indication that they are used to.  The yellow light means that the red is coming and that the phase dedicated to cross-traffic is coming and that opposing traffic should be coming to a stop, so when they do, make a left turn.

There is no need for a singal indication from permissive to protected, since that is less restrictive.

At a leading left, toward the end of the permissive phase, the signal goes from flashing yellow arrow to steady yellow arrow to red arrow. By MUTCD standards, the steady yellow arrow must always overlap directly with the opposing circular yellow unless an "Opposing traffic has(may have) extended green" sign exists.

The steady yellow arrow is meant to show that the proceeding protected or permitted movement (i.e. the associated green or flashing arrow phase) is ending. It has no bearing on what other traffic is about to do. The permissive left face doesn't need anything different.

At an all-arrow left turn signal, drivers really need to disregard the adjacent signals because all the appropriate cues are in the left turn signal. Take the case of lagging lefts, where traffic is uneven and the lefts don't come on at the same time (there's a protected/permitted intersection in Reno with lagging lefts that does this). The green arrow can come on before the adjacent thru terminates for the opposing lagging left, thus you can see a green arrow and adjacent yellow signals simultaneously on the approach. On the opposite approach, the thru terminates prior to the FYA, and I've never seen drivers misinterpret that the permitted turn was ending early.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: CYoder on June 29, 2014, 04:59:32 PM
Spotted a few in Kingsport, TN a few months ago.  There are two right off of I-81 at the TN 36 exit (Fort Henry Drive).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: brickbuilder711 on June 30, 2014, 02:33:25 AM
Noticed a newer one on a -- you guessed it--- span wire traffic light built new on SR 50 near 408, near Oviedo.
I'm sure once I go back to Central FL this week, I'll find a few more. Still, none in South Florida... guess the DOT doesn't want to risk more traffic insanity than there already is.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on June 30, 2014, 08:59:19 AM
Here in Brevard County, FL, they've been actively working to put up FYA signals. What's interesting is that they're also enabling Dallas Phasing where traffic gets a FYA if the opposite direction has green ball and a green arrow, something I haven't seen in Florida before.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Billy F 1988 on June 30, 2014, 02:40:37 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi917.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad16%2FBJFRacing01%2FPIC_0033_zps9d1d3b27.jpg&hash=566e0e79b47eb847ecba83c68a5d20a9ad3ed8a2)

Now I have proof of the new FYA signal at Brooks Street and Dore Lane in Missoula. In this image, I'm facing northbound US 93 Business/westbound US 12 approaching Dore Lane.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi917.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad16%2FBJFRacing01%2FPIC_0030_zpsd2f23a40.jpg&hash=e7e0a656529cc0de0a7a5c84f33e4fa854e579cc)

Facing southbound US 93/eastbound US 12 towards Reserve Street.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi917.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad16%2FBJFRacing01%2FPIC_0027_zpsf4e0ea92.jpg&hash=fc7a486d3dea378ae15aaf9d18e12440a47e4123)

Approaching Brooks Street going north on Dore Lane.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi917.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fad16%2FBJFRacing01%2FPIC_0034_zps4ae48c30.jpg&hash=14c169ca22357ed0f52c2c015713169bb26a54d6)

Wider perspective. Dig the new black colored bell shaped mastarms! :D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 02:44:46 PM
what, the ...

why is the yellow arrow in the bottom slot on the light?  what are the top two?

all FYAs I've ever seen have, from top to bottom, a layout of red arrow, yellow arrow, green arrow. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on June 30, 2014, 02:57:16 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 02:44:46 PM
what, the ...

why is the yellow arrow in the bottom slot on the light?  what are the top two?

all FYAs I've ever seen have, from top to bottom, a layout of red arrow, yellow arrow, green arrow. 

The FYA for a permissive-only left turn has a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow. A FYA for a protected/permissive left should be a 4-section head with a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow, and green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 02:57:16 PM

The FYA for a permissive-only left turn has a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow. A FYA for a protected/permissive left should be a 4-section head with a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow, and green arrow.

the ones I've seen have both yellow arrow functionalities in the same physical space.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:06:03 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:03:34 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 02:57:16 PM

The FYA for a permissive-only left turn has a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow. A FYA for a protected/permissive left should be a 4-section head with a red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow, and green arrow.

the ones I've seen have both yellow arrow functionalities in the same physical space.

that's a no-no, according to the MUTCD.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:06:03 PM


that's a no-no, according to the MUTCD.

why?  I can understand not having the same box light up different colors, because some people are color-blind and use the positioning instead, but I don't think anyone is blind about "flashing" vs "steady".

I may be able to go look in El Cajon today at the ones I see most often - they're on Magnolia southbound, just south of 8. 

now that I think about it, I can't remember what the ones in Nevada were like when I saw them a few weeks ago.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:41:20 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:06:03 PM


that's a no-no, according to the MUTCD.

why?  I can understand not having the same box light up different colors, because some people are color-blind and use the positioning instead, but I don't think anyone is blind about "flashing" vs "steady".

I may be able to go look in El Cajon today at the ones I see most often - they're on Magnolia southbound, just south of 8. 

now that I think about it, I can't remember what the ones in Nevada were like when I saw them a few weeks ago.

but think about the driver's perception of the transition from flashing to steady. The beginning of the clearance phase is much more discernible if it begins in a separate signal face.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: maplestar on June 30, 2014, 06:01:35 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:41:20 PM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:24:35 PM
why?  I can understand not having the same box light up different colors, because some people are color-blind and use the positioning instead, but I don't think anyone is blind about "flashing" vs "steady".

I may be able to go look in El Cajon today at the ones I see most often - they're on Magnolia southbound, just south of 8. 

now that I think about it, I can't remember what the ones in Nevada were like when I saw them a few weeks ago.

but think about the driver's perception of the transition from flashing to steady. The beginning of the clearance phase is much more discernible if it begins in a separate signal face.

I will admit that a day or two ago, I almost got myself in trouble, because I perceived an FYA to still be flashing, when it wasn't. I was about to make my left turn when it turned red forcing me to brake much harder than I like to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 30, 2014, 06:59:57 PM
I was checking out the recently posted photos from Missoula...thought they were strange. Anyways, left the house to go get lunch and.....WTF!? Same setup just installed nearby:



Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 01, 2014, 03:36:34 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 30, 2014, 03:24:35 PM
Quote from: spooky on June 30, 2014, 03:06:03 PM
that's a no-no, according to the MUTCD.

why?  I can understand not having the same box light up different colors, because some people are color-blind and use the positioning instead, but I don't think anyone is blind about "flashing" vs "steady".

The rational was to separate the FYA permissive yellow from the clearance interval yellow, to provide the visual cue that the signal is changing and the driver needs to clear the intersection. This same rational explains why the steady green arrow (protected movement) and FYA (permissive movement) can share the bottom signal section with a bi-modal arrow when a 3-section FYA PPLT face is used.  (This is what Oregon apparently seems to like, but many other places only use where height limitations are a factor.)

Quote from: agentsteel
now that I think about it, I can't remember what the ones in Nevada were like when I saw them a few weeks ago.

PPLTs in Nevada are the standard 4-section display, with rare exception (there's one in downtown Reno using the three-section variant described above).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on July 01, 2014, 02:28:34 PM
Quote from: jake on June 30, 2014, 06:59:57 PM
I was checking out the recently posted photos from Missoula...thought they were strange. Anyways, left the house to go get lunch and.....WTF!? Same setup just installed nearby:





Great video Jake.  The thing that really stood out is at 0:41 in the video where the left turn lane has gone red while the opposing through is presumably still yellow.  That does not look right and could lead to an increase of head-on left turn accidents.  That flat out looks like a dangerous setup.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 01, 2014, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 01, 2014, 02:28:34 PM
Quote from: jake on June 30, 2014, 06:59:57 PM
I was checking out the recently posted photos from Missoula...thought they were strange. Anyways, left the house to go get lunch and.....WTF!? Same setup just installed nearby:

Great video Jake.  The thing that really stood out is at 0:41 in the video where the left turn lane has gone red while the opposing through is presumably still yellow.  That does not look right and could lead to an increase of head-on left turn accidents.  That flat out looks like a dangerous setup.

Thanks! People started to wonder if I was a bit of a nutter which prevented me from saying that very same thing out-loud.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: froggie on July 02, 2014, 02:45:30 PM
The 3-lens permissive-only FYAs also exist in North Carolina.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on July 02, 2014, 08:51:10 PM
Quote from: froggie on July 02, 2014, 02:45:30 PM
The 3-lens permissive-only FYAs also exist in North Carolina.

We've got a few of them here in Lawrence as well. So far, I have not seen any permissive-only installations with FYAs outside of Lawrence, although they have become prevalent in the Kansas City metro (mostly 4-aspect signals; however, there are some 3-aspect signals that have a shared FY/Green arrow.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 03, 2014, 03:01:22 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on July 01, 2014, 02:28:34 PM
Quote from: jake on June 30, 2014, 06:59:57 PM
I was checking out the recently posted photos from Missoula...thought they were strange. Anyways, left the house to go get lunch and.....WTF!? Same setup just installed nearby:

Great video Jake.  The thing that really stood out is at 0:41 in the video where the left turn lane has gone red while the opposing through is presumably still yellow.  That does not look right and could lead to an increase of head-on left turn accidents.  That flat out looks like a dangerous setup.

That scenario happens here in Reno also, at FYAs or even with lagging protected lefts.

I believe the cause is not with the signal, but with how the yellow change interval is calculated. The ITE formula for a yellow change interval (a widely recognized standard) takes into account 85th percentile speed on the approach -- since left turning speeds are typically much shorter than the adjacent through, a shorter yellow for the left turn is the result. (I believe Synchro, and possibly some other traffic analysis software, assumes a default lower turning speed for this calculation.) I don't think it causes potential for more accidents or is very dangerous (since that amount of time is very short), but I do agree it looks weird.

In Las Vegas, I'm pretty sure the norm is to set the left turn yellow as the same duration as the through yellow, so the entire approach turns red simultaneously.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: brickbuilder711 on July 05, 2014, 12:45:05 AM
A flashing yellow U-Turn has been spotted on SR 37 in Lakeland, FL; and a new FYA installation has been going up on a span wire on SR 60 near W Lake Wales, FL.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on July 06, 2014, 06:48:10 PM
CDOT in Western Colorado has converted many "Doghouse Left intersections" recently...Unfortunately, all of these same former doghouse intersections are now Red Arrow Left intersections, which means longer unnecessary waits.

It wouldn't be bad if CDOT would program the lights where the waits at red lights would be minimal (they don't), but there are too many former doghouse intersections (Grand Junction, Montrose, Delta) that would have benefited more with FYAs than protected lefts, especially in areas with low traffic volumes most of the time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on July 10, 2014, 09:22:14 PM
Still none in New York outside of Rochester, Binghamton, or New York City that I know of. In most cases, I only see them causing trouble. As stated before, we either have fully-protected lefts or permissive lefts without dedicated left turn signals. None of the "flashing red" crud or odd signal phasing. People typically know to yield on green. Protected lefts are usually restricted to multi-lane situations, divided highways, cases where roads intersect at an angle that is very acute, or a turn across 3 or more lanes. In each a permissive left would be unsafe. You never see a dedicated turn signal outside of these situations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 10, 2014, 09:52:17 PM
The plans for adding FYAs to Randall Road in Kane County, IL, are up for the August 1 letting.  Link to plan set. (http://eplan.dot.il.gov/desenv/080114/63862-051/PLANS/PL-63862-051.pdf)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on July 10, 2014, 10:20:52 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 10, 2014, 09:22:14 PM
Still none in New York outside of Rochester, Binghamton, or New York City that I know of. In most cases, I only see them causing trouble. As stated before, we either have fully-protected lefts or permissive lefts without dedicated left turn signals. None of the "flashing red" crud or odd signal phasing. People typically know to yield on green. Protected lefts are usually restricted to multi-lane situations, divided highways, cases where roads intersect at an angle that is very acute, or a turn across 3 or more lanes. In each a permissive left would be unsafe. You never see a dedicated turn signal outside of these situations.
There's a couple east of Utica, on the intersections between NY 5S and NY 28.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman on August 08, 2014, 06:18:52 PM
MassDOT will eventually be phasing in FYAs at appropriate locations, hopefully starting within the next year.  They are presently completing a review of the signal equipment at each protected/permissive location within the state that is under their jurisdiction.  This is so they can determine whether the controllers and malfunction management units (fka "conflict monitors") at each location can accommodate FYA, can be upgraded to accept FYA, or will need to be replaced so the intersection can be converted to FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on August 08, 2014, 07:03:49 PM
I was in Rochester 3 weeks ago and I drove past the FYA on NY 441 in Brighton. It was inactive. Don't know if it's only running at certain times of the day, but it wasn't during a relatively off-peak time and no signs were present.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on August 08, 2014, 07:07:05 PM
I know it's active at least some of the time but I'm not sure what the schedule is.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 19, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Latest interim approval from FHWA might be of interest:
Interim Approval 17 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on August 19, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 19, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Latest interim approval from FHWA might be of interest:
Interim Approval 17 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm)

Cheaper to manufacture. Smaller signal housing and one fewer "lamp" to maintain.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 20, 2014, 02:24:09 AM
Quote from: cl94 on August 19, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 19, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Latest interim approval from FHWA might be of interest:
Interim Approval 17 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm)

Cheaper to manufacture. Smaller signal housing and one fewer "lamp" to maintain.

What exactly was the purpose of the 4-section housing anyways? Just an extra lamp space so people knew that they should be yielding versus preparing to stop?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on August 20, 2014, 03:21:19 AM
Quote from: jake on August 20, 2014, 02:24:09 AM
Quote from: cl94 on August 19, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 19, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Latest interim approval from FHWA might be of interest:
Interim Approval 17 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm)

Cheaper to manufacture. Smaller signal housing and one fewer "lamp" to maintain.

What exactly was the purpose of the 4-section housing anyways? Just an extra lamp space so people knew that they should be yielding versus preparing to stop?
Yes.  For the record, I don't like this new proposal.  I don't think a signal should flash and display a steady color in the same signal head.  It just sounds like an invitation for trouble and confusion for some drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 20, 2014, 04:24:30 AM
Quote from: jake on August 20, 2014, 02:24:09 AM
Quote from: cl94 on August 19, 2014, 11:22:05 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 19, 2014, 10:26:56 PM
Latest interim approval from FHWA might be of interest:
Interim Approval 17 (http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm)

Cheaper to manufacture. Smaller signal housing and one fewer "lamp" to maintain.

What exactly was the purpose of the 4-section housing anyways? Just an extra lamp space so people knew that they should be yielding versus preparing to stop?

That was exactly it. It was felt that, in applications where the permissive phase ends with a change to red, the visual "jump" of the yellow arrow between a flashing signal section and a steady signal section would provide that extra cue to drivers that the phase was ending.

Quote from: signalman on August 20, 2014, 03:21:19 AM
For the record, I don't like this new proposal.  I don't think a signal should flash and display a steady color in the same signal head.  It just sounds like an invitation for trouble and confusion for some drivers.

I am in agreement with you, signalman. However, I do see the economic rationale with this decision, as it potentially allows FYA conversion without new signal hardware. But I still don't think this is a good move to combine the two yellow meanings in the same signal section, as it could invite confusion. When you compare to the 3-section bimodal display FYA option (using a green arrow and flashing yellow arrow in the same bottom section), where the yellow change interval is still separate from the protected/permitted section--that option makes more intuitive sense.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on August 21, 2014, 06:40:02 PM
I think the FYA is making its way into South Carolina, I think I saw one in the Blythewood area off I-77, although I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on December 19, 2014, 01:34:50 PM
ALDOT is now going to install its first FYA in the Birmingham area along US 280 at Overton Road. Huntsville has the first FYA signals in Alabama, but this will be the first one that will be installed on an ALDOT-maintained road.

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2014/12/us_280_eastbound_flashing_yell.html
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mjb2002 on December 20, 2014, 01:25:24 PM
Quote from: PColumbus73 on August 21, 2014, 06:40:02 PM
I think the FYA is making its way into South Carolina, I think I saw one in the Blythewood area off I-77, although I'm not sure.

It made its way here on May 29, 2013. Here's my comment about the FYA in S.C.:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2983.msg224221#msg224221
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jdb1234 on December 22, 2014, 10:48:33 AM
It's amazing what you find in Mountain Brook these days:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi761.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fxx260%2Fjdbarnes1234%2FIMG_0169.jpg&hash=ae80833f4bffa24f6e4680ab9198415cd2cb95bb)

This is supposed to be the first FYA in Birmingham.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on December 22, 2014, 11:17:31 AM
We are at my sister-in-law's house in Florida and there's a flashing yellow arrow at the light outside her neighborhood that wasn't here last June. Big improvement over the old light, which allowed a left turn into the neighborhood ONLY on a green arrow and had a very long light cycle.

Odd thing is, there's no sign of any kind saying anything like "Yield on [flashing yellow]" or some such–just the flashing arrow. I haven't seen enough of them around Florida to know whether that's the norm here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: M3019C LPS20 on December 23, 2014, 12:57:42 AM
I like that U-Turn signal next to it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on December 23, 2014, 06:33:43 AM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on December 23, 2014, 12:57:42 AM
I like that U-Turn signal next to it.

That was installed recently as part of an access management project along US 280. There are quite a few Michigan left, and a lot of instances where side roads must either turn left or right at a signal but can't go straight through the intersection;.  I think it has improved traffic flow along the road, and ALDOT is preparing a similar project for US 72 West in Huntsville/Madison.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jdb1234 on December 23, 2014, 08:16:43 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on December 23, 2014, 06:33:43 AM
Quote from: M3019C LPS20 on December 23, 2014, 12:57:42 AM
I like that U-Turn signal next to it.

That was installed recently as part of an access management project along US 280. There are quite a few Michigan left, and a lot of instances where side roads must either turn left or right at a signal but can't go straight through the intersection;.  I think it has improved traffic flow along the road, and ALDOT is preparing a similar project for US 72 West in Huntsville/Madison.

That FYA was put in just a few days ago. 

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index.ssf/2014/12/us_280_eastbound_flashing_yell.html

I had to go to Homewood Monday morning and it was on the way.  On a ironic note, the signal headed westbound features strobes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
Glendale, AZ has added the flashing yellow  to
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)
51st Avenue & Peoria Avenue
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)

It drives me nuts when a jurisdiction changes how the signal operates depending on the time of day. I get the point, but from the perspective of a driver, things become unpredictable. In Bellevue, Washington, there's a couple of FYAs that perform similarly. On a couple of occasions, I've rolled out into the intersection to turn but then realized that I have a red arrow. Things didn't exactly end badly (I just made the turn as if they were flashing) but from a consistency perspective, I don't find the protected-only mode necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 28, 2014, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)

It drives me nuts when a jurisdiction changes how the signal operates depending on the time of day. I get the point, but from the perspective of a driver, things become unpredictable. In Bellevue, Washington, there's a couple of FYAs that perform similarly. On a couple of occasions, I've rolled out into the intersection to turn but then realized that I have a red arrow. Things didn't exactly end badly (I just made the turn as if they were flashing) but from a consistency perspective, I don't find the protected-only mode necessary.

Part of the reason is that, at certain busy times of day, the opposing flows would be to busy to safely allow permitted turns. (Keep in mind different jurisdictions define this threshold at different traffic volumes.) The FYA easily allows variable time of day mode operations, which is one of the contributing factors to its adoption. The alternative is to just leave protected only operation all day long...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 07:15:48 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 28, 2014, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)

It drives me nuts when a jurisdiction changes how the signal operates depending on the time of day. I get the point, but from the perspective of a driver, things become unpredictable. In Bellevue, Washington, there's a couple of FYAs that perform similarly. On a couple of occasions, I've rolled out into the intersection to turn but then realized that I have a red arrow. Things didn't exactly end badly (I just made the turn as if they were flashing) but from a consistency perspective, I don't find the protected-only mode necessary.

Part of the reason is that, at certain busy times of day, the opposing flows would be to busy to safely allow permitted turns. (Keep in mind different jurisdictions define this threshold at different traffic volumes.) The FYA easily allows variable time of day mode operations, which is one of the contributing factors to its adoption. The alternative is to just leave protected only operation all day long...

Glendale Community College is located at that intersection
Peak is 5-9am and 3-7pm
Classes start as early as 6am and most full timers take classes (Hour to 90min duration) 8am to 4pm with evening classes (2 to 4hrs) starting between 5pm and 6pm running as late to 10pm
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on December 28, 2014, 07:22:49 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 28, 2014, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)

It drives me nuts when a jurisdiction changes how the signal operates depending on the time of day. I get the point, but from the perspective of a driver, things become unpredictable. In Bellevue, Washington, there's a couple of FYAs that perform similarly. On a couple of occasions, I've rolled out into the intersection to turn but then realized that I have a red arrow. Things didn't exactly end badly (I just made the turn as if they were flashing) but from a consistency perspective, I don't find the protected-only mode necessary.

Part of the reason is that, at certain busy times of day, the opposing flows would be to busy to safely allow permitted turns. (Keep in mind different jurisdictions define this threshold at different traffic volumes.) The FYA easily allows variable time of day mode operations, which is one of the contributing factors to its adoption. The alternative is to just leave protected only operation all day long...

Wish they did that in my neck of the woods.  Over the past year, they converted many of the CDOT-maintained signals from doghouses to protected red arrows.  Many of these same intersections would be better off with FYA's either off-peak or 24/7.  It's kinda sad when the local municipality can do a better job at traffic light management & synchronization than the state.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 07:44:11 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on December 28, 2014, 07:22:49 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 28, 2014, 05:42:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 28, 2014, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: mapman1071 on December 28, 2014, 10:37:55 AM
59th Avenue & Olive (only operates off-peak, Overnight and weekends. Peak times are Protected left Only)

It drives me nuts when a jurisdiction changes how the signal operates depending on the time of day. I get the point, but from the perspective of a driver, things become unpredictable. In Bellevue, Washington, there's a couple of FYAs that perform similarly. On a couple of occasions, I've rolled out into the intersection to turn but then realized that I have a red arrow. Things didn't exactly end badly (I just made the turn as if they were flashing) but from a consistency perspective, I don't find the protected-only mode necessary.

Part of the reason is that, at certain busy times of day, the opposing flows would be to busy to safely allow permitted turns. (Keep in mind different jurisdictions define this threshold at different traffic volumes.) The FYA easily allows variable time of day mode operations, which is one of the contributing factors to its adoption. The alternative is to just leave protected only operation all day long...

Wish they did that in my neck of the woods.  Over the past year, they converted many of the CDOT-maintained signals from doghouses to protected red arrows.  Many of these same intersections would be better off with FYA's either off-peak or 24/7.  It's kinda sad when the local municipality can do a better job at traffic light management & synchronization than the state.

No matter how busy the road is, you can always eek a few more cars through when the light turns to solid amber, so long as the traffic is waiting in the intersection. Are we saying that, because traffic is so heavy, people will feel more inclined to "thread the needle"? I suppose that's a legitimate concern, but I hope there's some stats backing it up.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on April 16, 2015, 12:09:46 AM
Pennsylvania update:
https://www.facebook.com/PennsylvaniaDepartmentofTransportation/posts/10152793753780669

Quote from: PennDOTYes, PennDOT's Bureau of Maintenance and Operations started an evaluation earlier this month which is evaluating the Flashing Yellow arrow operation as well as lessons learned from other states. Once completed, it is anticipated that a pilot will begin.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on April 16, 2015, 06:19:05 AM
A FYA was recently installed at NY 31 (Monroe Ave.) WB and I 590 in Brighton, NY as part of the recent improvements at that interchange.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on April 16, 2015, 08:39:38 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 16, 2015, 12:09:46 AM
Pennsylvania update:
https://www.facebook.com/PennsylvaniaDepartmentofTransportation/posts/10152793753780669

Quote from: PennDOTYes, PennDOT's Bureau of Maintenance and Operations started an evaluation earlier this month which is evaluating the Flashing Yellow arrow operation as well as lessons learned from other states. Once completed, it is anticipated that a pilot will begin.

Wow.  I'm surprised.  I thought they said earlier that the legislature had to pass legislation to allow it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on April 16, 2015, 11:40:47 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on April 16, 2015, 08:39:38 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 16, 2015, 12:09:46 AM
Pennsylvania update:
https://www.facebook.com/PennsylvaniaDepartmentofTransportation/posts/10152793753780669

Quote from: PennDOTYes, PennDOT's Bureau of Maintenance and Operations started an evaluation earlier this month which is evaluating the Flashing Yellow arrow operation as well as lessons learned from other states. Once completed, it is anticipated that a pilot will begin.

Wow.  I'm surprised.  I thought they said earlier that the legislature had to pass legislation to allow it.

Well, I just responded to them and suggested a particular intersection that might work well for a pilot here in the Pittsburgh area when they get to that point. ;)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on April 28, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"

I hate those kind. It seems like a waste of money to put one of those there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 28, 2015, 06:23:38 PM
The flashing yellow U-turn has made it to Washington. This is in University Place, near where they are holding the U.S. Open in June (for any golfers out there. Lol).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FWTrxuqbh.jpg&hash=68446baca8d7c5202894a7e65795878cd83e209a)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 30, 2015, 03:04:26 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 28, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"

I hate those kind. It seems like a waste of money to put one of those there.

Well pctech probably just saw the signal in the off-peak period. Installing the FYA display allows for easy conversion between protected-only or protected-permitted mode in the busy peak periods then switch to permitted in the non-busy period.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on April 30, 2015, 05:36:09 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 30, 2015, 03:04:26 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 28, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"

I hate those kind. It seems like a waste of money to put one of those there.

Well pctech probably just saw the signal in the off-peak period. Installing the FYA display allows for easy conversion between protected-only or protected-permitted mode in the busy peak periods then switch to permitted in the non-busy period.

I'm not sure if he was referring to the four-lens FYA or the three-lens one. The latter one is the one that I think is a waste of money.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 30, 2015, 08:43:03 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 30, 2015, 05:36:09 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 30, 2015, 03:04:26 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 28, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"

I hate those kind. It seems like a waste of money to put one of those there.

Well pctech probably just saw the signal in the off-peak period. Installing the FYA display allows for easy conversion between protected-only or protected-permitted mode in the busy peak periods then switch to permitted in the non-busy period.

I'm not sure if he was referring to the four-lens FYA or the three-lens one. The latter one is the one that I think is a waste of money.

Three-lens FYAs are allowed, with the bottom lens containing both green and flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: codyg1985 on April 30, 2015, 08:48:26 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 30, 2015, 08:43:03 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 30, 2015, 05:36:09 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 30, 2015, 03:04:26 AM
Quote from: codyg1985 on April 28, 2015, 01:45:44 PM
Quote from: pctech on April 28, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I saw my first one here in Louisiana on Sunday in Lafayette on Congress St. near the University.
It seemed to be operating in mostly flashing amber "permissive left turn mode", no green arrow, Flashing amber to steady amber  to red arrow then back to flashing amber. No green "protected left turn mode"

I hate those kind. It seems like a waste of money to put one of those there.

Well pctech probably just saw the signal in the off-peak period. Installing the FYA display allows for easy conversion between protected-only or protected-permitted mode in the busy peak periods then switch to permitted in the non-busy period.

I'm not sure if he was referring to the four-lens FYA or the three-lens one. The latter one is the one that I think is a waste of money.

Three-lens FYAs are allowed, with the bottom lens containing both green and flashing yellow.

I'm not sure if I have seen one of those (at least not one where I saw both a FYA and a green steady arrow while sitting at the intersection).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 30, 2015, 10:19:05 PM
Utah has installed its first FYA for right turns. (http://blog.udot.utah.gov/2015/03/first-yellow-flashing-right-turn-arrow-arrives-in-utah/)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on May 01, 2015, 09:49:55 AM
Huntsville, AL also installed a FYA right-turn signal a little while back. Currently the first one in the state as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: silverback1065 on May 01, 2015, 10:44:53 AM
these are now all over indiana, and now people here are confused as to what they mean: http://www.theindychannel.com/news/local-news/witnesses-confusion-over-new-traffic-signal-caused-fatal-crash 

Sad that someone died in this case, but I don't get how they can be that confusing with the explanation sign right next to it. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 01, 2015, 02:48:37 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 30, 2015, 10:19:05 PM
Utah has installed its first FYA for right turns. (http://blog.udot.utah.gov/2015/03/first-yellow-flashing-right-turn-arrow-arrives-in-utah/)

I looked at this, and it seems to be a replacement for a Yield sign on a right turn.  It can be useful for many places where there is a channelized right turn into heavy traffic, a green arrow will let you know that it is protected (because the other cars and pedestrians see a red light) and a yellow flash is treated  as yield.

Does this light ever turn red?

Please correct me if I'm wrong on the meaning of traffic lights:

Flashing red and flashing red arrow are equivalent to stop signs
Flashing yellow arrow is equivalent to a yield sign for turning traffic
Flashing yellow ball lets you know that  cross-traffic has flashing red, but your direction has normal right of way

Do flashing green have any meaning in the US?

Is there a signal indication equivalent to yield for straight non-turning traffic?




Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2015, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 01, 2015, 02:48:37 PM
Do flashing green have any meaning in the US?

Delaware had a flashing green at some intersections. The cross street had flashing red.  Motorists could cross on the flashing red, but if a car remained stopped for too long (say, more than a minute), the light was stop flashing and revert to normal mode, and cycle normally.  After the light cycled, it reverted back to flashing red/green.

I don't believe they exist any more in Delaware.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on May 01, 2015, 08:41:20 PM
The MUTCD outlawed flashing green indications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Atomica on May 02, 2015, 12:30:46 AM
Yes, and I have seen them throughout Kansas and Missouri.  I think they might even be in Nebraska now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 02, 2015, 12:58:07 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 01, 2015, 02:48:37 PM
Please correct me if I'm wrong on the meaning of traffic lights:

Flashing red and flashing red arrow are equivalent to stop signs
Flashing yellow arrow is equivalent to a yield sign for turning traffic
Flashing yellow ball lets you know that  cross-traffic has flashing red, but your direction has normal right of way

Do flashing green have any meaning in the US?

Is there a signal indication equivalent to yield for straight non-turning traffic?

Flashing circular yellow means ok to proceed with caution. When an intersection is in red/yellow flash mode, the direction with the flashing yellow typically indicates the street with the nominal right of way. The presence of flashing yellow doesn't necessarily automatically imply the presence of a flashing red, as it can be used in other applications that don't include intersections (as in older crosswalk or emergency signals that used a flashing yellow instead of steady green).

Flashing green has no meaning, and is not allowed per MUTCD.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on May 02, 2015, 12:29:00 PM
With only three colors and two modes (steady and flashing), it's unfortunate that one is wasted with flashing green not allowed.  It's still around in Massachusetts, albeit on its way out, but for a situation where cross-traffic has flashing red, the flashing green would have made a lot of sense. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Atomica on May 02, 2015, 06:39:27 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on May 02, 2015, 12:29:00 PM
With only three colors and two modes (steady and flashing), it's unfortunate that one is wasted with flashing green not allowed.  It's still around in Massachusetts, albeit on its way out, but for a situation where cross-traffic has flashing red, the flashing green would have made a lot of sense.

Flashing green could be used for evacuation routes, as from hurricanes, tornado disaster zones, and earthquake disaster zones, as an emergency evacuation, that the driver need not stop.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ET21 on May 02, 2015, 06:44:38 PM
Saw it in Peoria, IL and along US 24 just this past Tuesday
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on May 02, 2015, 07:02:23 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 02, 2015, 06:44:38 PM
Saw it in Peoria, IL and along US 24 just this past Tuesday

IDOT District 4 seems to be an extensive user of them.  I've seen a few in District 6 (Springfield), but none in 1, 2, or 3.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ET21 on May 03, 2015, 07:31:37 PM
Quote from: Brandon on May 02, 2015, 07:02:23 PM
Quote from: ET21 on May 02, 2015, 06:44:38 PM
Saw it in Peoria, IL and along US 24 just this past Tuesday

IDOT District 4 seems to be an extensive user of them.  I've seen a few in District 6 (Springfield), but none in 1, 2, or 3.

It will be interesting to see if 1-3 decides to incorporate them soon. I thought it be included with all the signal improvements seen over the past 3 years around the area
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 03, 2015, 07:52:04 PM
^ From what I have heard District 1 will not be adopting them until they are completely mandated either by a future version of the MUTCD or a higher IDOT level in Springfield.  However, I would not be surprised to see a few local agencies use them selectively after Kane County gets a few up on Randall Road and whatever road they decide to use them on next.

As for the rest of Illinois, rumor has it one of the districts bordering District 4 (besides District 6) will be the next to try them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: HTM Duke on May 18, 2015, 01:38:16 AM
There's only two FYA's installed by VDOT in Fairfax County that I know of:
Northbound Backlick Rd at Barta Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.756455,-77.184482,3a,24.4y,23.01h,89.16t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sf7_RfURhLgL5Fzer8FUJ8A!2e0!5s20140901T000000!6m1!1e1)
Eastbound Braddock Rd at Ravensworth Rd (http://annandaleva.blogspot.com/2014/09/new-traffic-signal-for-left-turns-at.html)

The second one is more interesting, since it is the only FYA that I've seen to operate in both permissive and protected modes depending on the time of day.

As an honorary runner-up, here are what I believe are the first set of FRA's in Northern Virginia:
I-495 north exit to Gallows Rd southbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.853085,-77.219455,3a,15.1y,45.11h,92.85t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s7X12I77B67mVTvHUUw_KmA!2e0)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on May 18, 2015, 09:09:38 AM
^^ The first one looks odd as the FYA is in the bottom of 4 sections instead of the 3rd section.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: uknowbeers on May 18, 2015, 09:47:57 AM
Quote from: HTM Duke on May 18, 2015, 01:38:16 AM
There's only two FYA's installed by VDOT in Fairfax County that I know of:
Northbound Backlick Rd at Barta Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.756455,-77.184482,3a,24.4y,23.01h,89.16t/data=!3m5!1e1!3m3!1sf7_RfURhLgL5Fzer8FUJ8A!2e0!5s20140901T000000!6m1!1e1)
Eastbound Braddock Rd at Ravensworth Rd (http://annandaleva.blogspot.com/2014/09/new-traffic-signal-for-left-turns-at.html)

The second one is more interesting, since it is the only FYA that I've seen to operate in both permissive and protected modes depending on the time of day.

As an honorary runner-up, here are what I believe are the first set of FRA's in Northern Virginia:
I-495 north exit to Gallows Rd southbound (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.853085,-77.219455,3a,15.1y,45.11h,92.85t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1s7X12I77B67mVTvHUUw_KmA!2e0)

Typical VDOT confusion. The Barta Road one was protected-only and is now protected-permissive, so that's an upgrade. But the FYA is in the wrong position, as Big John pointed out.

The Braddock/Ravensworth Rd. used to have a doghouse, but now will operate in protected-only mode for certain parts of the day. For a peak commuter, that's a downgrade for traffic flow.

Re: the FRA's, why? For a right turn, wouldn't a solid red ball make more sense? What are they trying to communicate with the FRA?

As a sidenote, when this overpass was being rebuilt 5(?) years ago, VDOT once put a protected-only left for eastbound gallows to NB I-495; the traffic backed up so far on the bridge that within a couple weeks VDOT changed it to a Doghouse (which is still what it has).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: HTM Duke on May 18, 2015, 03:29:37 PM
Quote from: uknowbeers on May 18, 2015, 09:47:57 AM
The Braddock/Ravensworth Rd. used to have a doghouse, but now will operate in protected-only mode for certain parts of the day. For a peak commuter, that's a downgrade for traffic flow.

Last I checked, protected-only turns only happen during the PM rush, when the majority of traffic is heading west.  Given that I've seen some dangerous stunts pulled by drivers to make the left on the green ball during said rush before the signal switch, I'm okay with this.

On a tangent, there once was a line item on VDOT's six year plan to build a second left turn lane to Ravensworth Rd, which would have created a protected-only situation anyways.

QuoteRe: the FRA's, why? For a right turn, wouldn't a solid red ball make more sense? What are they trying to communicate with the FRA?

Per a VDOT press release I found, there was originally a single signal with a steady red arrow before, where one could not turn on red.  VDOT changed it to permit turns on red and to make it more visible, but I don't see traffic making that turn often enough to say if it works.  As for the red ball... I'll just say that a lot of drivers in NOVA will just blow through a right on red ball if possible.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on May 19, 2015, 05:13:40 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 03, 2015, 07:52:04 PM
^ From what I have heard District 1 will not be adopting them until they are completely mandated either by a future version of the MUTCD or a higher IDOT level in Springfield.  However, I would not be surprised to see a few local agencies use them selectively after Kane County gets a few up on Randall Road and whatever road they decide to use them on next.

As for the rest of Illinois, rumor has it one of the districts bordering District 4 (besides District 6) will be the next to try them.

District 6 (Springfield) has a few that I've seen.  Much agreed on the rumor regarding District 1's (Schaumburg) lack of acceptance of them.  I think Hell will freeze over before CDOT adopts them as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 09, 2015, 09:42:52 PM
Per the preliminary plans Kane County, IL has posted for the first section of Longmeadow Parkway, it appears they will be using FYA's on this project as well:  Link (see Sheets 99 and 101). (//http://)

(If that link does work, try the long way via here (first entry under "Other Documents") (http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/foxBridges/longmeadowPkwy.aspx)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: AMLNet49 on June 10, 2015, 04:23:01 PM
Massachusetts uses flashing green balls for a situation where there is a crosswalk.  The cross-street associated with the crosswalk has a flashing red ball. If a button is pushed on the crosswalk by a pedestrian, the flashing green on the main road turns to solid yellow and then red, while the cross-street gets a solid green. After a minute, the lights reset to flashing signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 21, 2015, 08:52:34 PM
An article in the Rockford newspaper (http://www.rrstar.com/article/20150721/NEWS/150729828) indicates that there is a senator pushing to have a few protected only left turns switched over to using flashing yellow arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: iBallasticwolf2 on July 21, 2015, 08:58:49 PM
I haven't seen any of those in KY or OH yet. That will be interesting to see that. Is it possible it could help congestion or safety at some diamond interchanges? I could see it being installed at the I-75/I-71 and KY 1072 interchange which should actually be an SPUI.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on July 21, 2015, 09:29:33 PM
Ohio has had some for a while per previous posts. Think there's one in Dayton.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on July 22, 2015, 01:57:02 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on July 21, 2015, 08:52:34 PM
An article in the Rockford newspaper (http://www.rrstar.com/article/20150721/NEWS/150729828) indicates that there is a senator pushing to have a few protected only left turns switched over to using flashing yellow arrows.

Good.  Those "Left Turn On Green Arrow Only" things are ridiculous.  It's perfectly clear, and we have to wait for the green arrow to cycle through!?!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: slorydn1 on July 22, 2015, 02:10:11 PM
We have them all over the place here now, and I like them. I hated missing the opportunity to turn at the green arrow then sitting forever at a red one while no one was going in the opposite direction making me sit there burning gas for nothing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 23, 2015, 06:09:19 PM
Quote from: iBallasticwolf2 on July 21, 2015, 08:58:49 PM
I haven't seen any of those in KY or OH yet. That will be interesting to see that. Is it possible it could help congestion or safety at some diamond interchanges? I could see it being installed at the I-75/I-71 and KY 1072 interchange which should actually be an SPUI.

There's a bunch around Lexington, KY, and I recall seeing an article a while back indicating that FYA's were going to be installed in Paducah.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on July 27, 2015, 04:22:06 PM
It appears Bend recently install 3 section FYA signals. This video was posted today on ODOT's Youtube Channel


Interesting that they use the middle head (the yellow one) for the FYA. Most of the time I see these the FYA is in the same spot as the green arrow. I'd prefer that over this. I don't really like them, just use the 4 section signals. Though, this intersection in particular (27th St. and Neff Rd.) should benefit form the FYA. Most of the other signals on 27th have FYAs ever since they upgraded 27th to 4 lanes, but Neff never got them. Not sure why this is on ODOT's page though, both 27th and Neff are not on the state highway system. Maybe just showing an example of the 3 section FYAs (are these the first ones in Oregon?).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on July 27, 2015, 04:38:52 PM
^ There are a lot of 3-section FYAs in Washington County, Oregon where the green and flashing yellow arrows are in the same (bottom) signal head. I did notice a 3-section where the FYA was in the middle just two days ago in Pendleton, I think. I'd rather the green and flashing yellows be in the same signal head so that it's more apparent when the signal changes from flashing yellow to solid yellow. When they're in different heads, there is a clear visual indicator that the signal is changing, but when they occupy the same head, it's not immediately apparent until you notice the flashing has stopped and the arrow is staying steady.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on August 13, 2015, 11:12:33 AM
Rhode Island finally has a FYA on Rte. 3 in Coventry at the Stop and Shop. I've seen them whenever I travel to Washington state and thought they would never show up here (our state seems to have a love for protected left turns at a majority of intersections), but I guess times are changing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6805187,-71.5699476,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3O0cS0b0qVVVPlZPhgvvMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 16, 2015, 05:54:48 PM
As far as the 3 section FYAs are concerned, it seems to me that they are done simply to save money.

If the intersection already had a a red arrow, yellow arrow, green arrow signal, then why add new signal hardware to implement FYA.  Simply adjust the timing hardware to provide for flashing yellow.

Has anyone implemented FYA with a doghouse signal?  I could imagine that it could be done.



Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 16, 2015, 06:15:09 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 16, 2015, 05:54:48 PM
Has anyone implemented FYA with a doghouse signal?  I could imagine that it could be done.

I believe the first was in Minnesota, which was then copied by Wisconsin (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=6819.msg2078816#msg2078816).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onyZQcgkMOw
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on August 20, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on August 13, 2015, 11:12:33 AM
Rhode Island finally has a FYA on Rte. 3 in Coventry at the Stop and Shop. I've seen them whenever I travel to Washington state and thought they would never show up here (our state seems to have a love for protected left turns at a majority of intersections), but I guess times are changing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6805187,-71.5699476,3a,75y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3O0cS0b0qVVVPlZPhgvvMg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

So, I again went by this new FYA intersection the other day and caught the sequence and noticed it was different from what I've seen in Washington State. This new FYA signal sequence appears to be

RA->GA->YA->RA->FYA

where as what I've seen in Washington:

RA->GA->FYA  or RA->FYA

Does this seem strange, or is this just because RI is new to this?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on August 20, 2015, 06:27:34 PM
^ You've seen a light go from green arrow directly to flashing yellow arrow? I always thought the protected movement had to be terminated with a solid yellow, then solid red, then the permissive phase could begin (exactly like you describe with the RI signal). Where in Washington did you see this happen? I've never personally seen it done this way - I always see GA go directly to YA (not FYA) afterwards every time.

I've seen a bunch of signals in Washington County, Oregon that begin with the permissive phase (RA > FYA), then change to protected by going FYA > GA. However, when the GA ends (going from protected to permissive), it always goes GA > YA> RA (then to FYA if the permissive phase follows).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 20, 2015, 06:43:16 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on August 20, 2015, 06:05:35 PM
where as what I've seen in Washington:

RA->GA->FYA  or RA->FYA

That sequence would violate Section 4D.20, Paragraph 03, Item C of the current National MUTCD.
Quote from: 2009 National MUTCDA steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be displayed following the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 20, 2015, 07:34:29 PM
I've seen some funny things before, but typically the phase I've seen here in Washington is GA-YA-FYA. No RA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on August 20, 2015, 08:08:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 20, 2015, 07:34:29 PM
I've seen some funny things before, but typically the phase I've seen here in Washington is GA-YA-FYA. No RA.

Per Section 4D.20, paragraph 3, there is no prohibition of that phasing. Red arrow only required at the end of a permissive phase or if the protected phase is lagging (obviously). Granted, every example I've seen in these parts has a red arrow between the leading protected and permissive phases.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on August 20, 2015, 08:11:48 PM
I found something else in the same chapter but in a different section that also allows that sequence:

Quote
Section 4D.05 Application of Steady Signal Indications
Standard
03 Steady signal indications shall be applied as follows:
E. A steady YELLOW ARROW signal indication:
6.Shall be terminated by a RED ARROW signal indication for the same direction or a CIRCULAR RED signal indication except:
• When entering preemption operation, the display of a GREEN ARROW signal indication or a flashing arrow signal indication shall be permitted following a steady YELLOW ARROW signal indication.
• When the movement controlled by the arrow is to continue on a permissive mode basis during an immediately following CIRCULAR GREEN or flashing YELLOW ARROW signal indication.

Looks like that second bulletpoint appears to allow the FYA to be displayed directly after the YA without an intermediate RA.

Edit: The above I've found only permits jakeroot's description of YA > FYA. Haven't found anything that allows doogie1303's description of GA > FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tarkus on August 20, 2015, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 16, 2015, 05:54:48 PM
As far as the 3 section FYAs are concerned, it seems to me that they are done simply to save money.

The 3-section FYAs (or as I've taken to calling them, "flellows") are a large part of the reason why Washington County was able to install hundreds of them in a matter of months.  They're just about everywhere.  The county also went on a spree of replacing the vast majority of right turn signals with long 5-section signals sometime in the past year, though there's actually an experimental right-turn 3-section FYA on NW Cornell Road (westbound) at Evergreen Pkwy/179th.

Additionally, ODOT changed the state signal guidelines quite some time ago to favoring FYAs over doghouses in virtually all cases, though their installations had all been using the 4-section signal heads--I suspect the Bend video doorknob60 posted suggests they might be jumping on the 3-section bandwagon.  Oddly enough, though, the one place with the most doghouses left is Salem.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on August 21, 2015, 10:15:21 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on August 20, 2015, 06:27:34 PM
^ You've seen a light go from green arrow directly to flashing yellow arrow? I always thought the protected movement had to be terminated with a solid yellow, then solid red, then the permissive phase could begin (exactly like you describe with the RI signal). Where in Washington did you see this happen? I've never personally seen it done this way - I always see GA go directly to YA (not FYA) afterwards every time.

I've seen a bunch of signals in Washington County, Oregon that begin with the permissive phase (RA > FYA), then change to protected by going FYA > GA. However, when the GA ends (going from protected to permissive), it always goes GA > YA> RA (then to FYA if the permissive phase follows).

I've been in Kitsap County of Washington state mainly Bremerton, Poulsbo, and Silverdale. I know I've definitely seen the RA->FYA sequence, I'm trying to remember which intersection I might have seen a GA->FYA sequence, either that or I'm loosing my mind. :spin:

Another thought, does the solid YA now have two meanings? In a protected sequence GA->YA->RA the solid YA indicates the protected movement is about to end (but you are still protected from oncoming traffic until the RA). In a permissive sequence FYA->YA->RA, the solid YA takes on a different meaning (the permissive movement is about to end) but now you are not protected from oncoming traffic. It's not a "Yellow Trap" per say, but I could see a situation where a driver is not paying attention to the sequence and mistakes the solid YA as protected instead of permissive. 

I found this video of a light in Pasadena showing both cases:

http://r.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KLqITK1NdVajAAUMT8w8QF;_ylu=X3oDMTJkN2RscmhyBHNlYwNjZC1hdHRyBHNsawNzb3VyY2UEdnRpZAMEcnVybANodHRwczovL3d3dy55b3V0dWJlLmNvbS93YXRjaD92PTViWVpXdE1Ga05F/RV=2/RE=1440236874/RO=10/RU=https%3a%2f%2fwww.youtube.com%2fwatch%3fv%3d5bYZWtMFkNE/RK=0/RS=mZuaaBr5WP9fuscPuJwN1cJvdoI-

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on August 21, 2015, 10:36:50 PM
^ Before the FYA, I don't think an arrow was ever used to denote a permissive movement - only a protected one. However, now with the advent of the FYA, the solid yellow arrow has taken on a dual meaning (depending on what was displayed immediately preceding it). In the simplest sense, it means the signal is about to change to a more restrictive instruction than whatever came before - e.g., after a protected GA, protected phase is ending, and after a FYA, permissive phase is ending, and that in all cases traffic should stop before entering the intersection unless it is unsafe to do so, in which case traffic should complete the turn.

In the GA > YA situation (protected phase ending), oncoming traffic is about to get the green (if they had red before - leading protected phase) or cross traffic is about to get a green (if oncoming traffic had a green but now has a red - lagging protected phase). In the FYA > YA situation (permissive phase ending), oncoming traffic should be getting a yellow, then red, and then cross traffic (or pedestrians) is about to get a green. In both cases, it is necessary to make sure the intersection is clear of left-turning traffic, whether they are turning during a protected movement or a permissive movement, to allow left-turning traffic to clear so other traffic can proceed.

(Writing and then reading the above has my head spinning, so if there is anything wrong someone please call it out!)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 22, 2015, 12:38:41 AM
The meaning of the steady yellow arrow had not changed. It means that the associated turn phase that proceeded it (whether protected green arrow or permissive FYA) is terminating and changing to the restrictive instruction. Now, the reaction of a driver may need to be different depending on the previous signal indication.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a signal in South Seattle which demonstrates how some of the FYAs work around here. I've seen some which throw in a red arrow between solid and flashing arrows, but quite a few are like this:

https://youtu.be/2QDiFJvYYas
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on August 31, 2015, 05:57:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a signal in South Seattle which demonstrates how some of the FYAs work around here. I've seen some which throw in a red arrow between solid and flashing arrows, but quite a few are like this:

https://youtu.be/2QDiFJvYYas

Ok, so that's what I must have seen when I was out there, GA->YA->FYA, not GA->FYA ... my bad.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman65 on August 31, 2015, 06:00:24 PM
In Orange County we use the four lens heads that are designed for FYL on fully protected left turns.

Orange Blossom Trail at Taft-Vineland Road and Central Florida Parkway at Orangewood Blvd. have the FYA assembly, but do not use it.

Pretty strange.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on August 31, 2015, 06:36:47 PM
Quote from: roadman65 on August 31, 2015, 06:00:24 PM
In Orange County we use the four lens heads that are designed for FYL on fully protected left turns.

Orange Blossom Trail at Taft-Vineland Road and Central Florida Parkway at Orangewood Blvd. have the FYA assembly, but do not use it.

Pretty strange.
There's a few on Alafaya Trail that have gotten it as well that do not use it. I really wish they'd enable it, it'd help traffic out a lot. One of them even has an instructional sign, but still never seen it flash yellow. https://www.google.com/maps/@28.5611615,-81.2070363,3a,15y,331.44h,96.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sdyu3OMMyU_oVolq42UEkdw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on August 31, 2015, 06:37:50 PM
Cross-posting from the New York thread...

NYSDOT Region 10 is adopting flashing yellow arrows (plans (https://www.dot.ny.gov/portal/pls/portal/MEXIS_APP.BC_CONST_NOTICE_ADMIN.VIEWFILE?p_file_id=9178&p_is_digital=Y)). Intersection of Northern Boulevard (NY 25A) and Cedar Swamp Rd (NY 107) in Nassau County is getting FYAs for left turn movements from NY 25A. Other than NYCDOT using them at intersections with no through movement, I think this is the first application downstate and the first "standard" installation in the region.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 31, 2015, 06:38:46 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on August 31, 2015, 05:57:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 26, 2015, 08:22:14 PM
I'm not sure if this has been posted yet, but here's a signal in South Seattle which demonstrates how some of the FYAs work around here. I've seen some which throw in a red arrow between solid and flashing arrows, but quite a few are like this:

Ok, so that's what I must have seen when I was out there, GA->YA->FYA, not GA->FYA ... my bad.

No no don't worry, the possibility still exists. Seattle has had a lot of strange signals in the past (all gone now, though):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOEy3BARK1c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aWmC4pBQfY
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on September 01, 2015, 04:33:06 PM
Quote from: Tarkus on August 20, 2015, 09:12:30 PM

I suspect the Bend video doorknob60 posted suggests they might be jumping on the 3-section bandwagon.

Not sure how much ODOT had to do with that signal. Yes, it was posted on ODOT's Youtube channel which makes me question it, but the intersection is at Neff Rd and 27th St which are not on the state highway system, but I'm pretty sure handled by the City of Bend. I'm guessing ODOT gave the city permission to use this signal, and ODOT will be examining it to see how it does. I'm just speculating though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Buffaboy on September 03, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Sorry for potentially stating the obvious, but is the point of this FYA to allow left turning traffic the same benefits as turning left at a green light when oncoming traffic has cleared?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on September 03, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Sorry for potentially stating the obvious, but is the point of this FYA to allow left turning traffic the same benefits as turning left at a green light when oncoming traffic has cleared?

Yes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mukade on September 03, 2015, 07:42:14 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on September 03, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Sorry for potentially stating the obvious, but is the point of this FYA to allow left turning traffic the same benefits as turning left at a green light when oncoming traffic has cleared?

Yes.

...but with an added level of confusion for many drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on September 03, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
Quote from: mukade on September 03, 2015, 07:42:14 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on September 03, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Sorry for potentially stating the obvious, but is the point of this FYA to allow left turning traffic the same benefits as turning left at a green light when oncoming traffic has cleared?

Yes.

...but with an added level of confusion for many drivers.

It'll probably become more understood in a couple of years. It's certainly better than each state having its own PPLT setup.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Rothman on September 04, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.

There's one in the Capital Region of NY at New Karner Rd and Albany St.  The trap is NB on New Karner.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on September 04, 2015, 12:16:57 PM
Quote from: Rothman on September 04, 2015, 11:18:34 AM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.

There's one in the Capital Region of NY at New Karner Rd and Albany St.  The trap is NB on New Karner.

There are a couple more in Saratoga and Warren Counties. I think there's at least one on NY 254.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on September 04, 2015, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.
while thats the easiest solution, often times traffic flow can be improved by having the protected portion at the end of the cycle due to signal timings (it also has the added benefit of often getting to skip that phase entirely during lighter traffic)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 04, 2015, 04:38:06 PM
Quote from: mukade on September 03, 2015, 07:42:14 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 03, 2015, 07:04:37 PM
Quote from: Buffaboy on September 03, 2015, 05:40:10 PM
Sorry for potentially stating the obvious, but is the point of this FYA to allow left turning traffic the same benefits as turning left at a green light when oncoming traffic has cleared?

Yes.

...but with an added level of confusion for many drivers.

...and an added level of comprehension and compliance for other drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 04, 2015, 04:58:26 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

The yellow trap issue is encountered when you combine lead/lag protected left turn phasing at locations where you want to have protected and permitted left turn phasing available via the traditional 5-section PPLT display. Without some modification to the standard 5-section signal head operation, implementing lead/lag left turns results in the yellow trap situation. I created a PowerPoint animation about 5 years ago that demonstrates the differences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPKjcPI5Sko

Lead/lag left turn phasing is often more desirable when coordinated signal timing is in place along an arterial. With one direction having left turns leading and the other direction trailing, you get better two-way signal progression.


The FHWA didn't create a new signal type specifically for this situation (the FYA was actually developed in Reno). A signal phasing problem existed that then-current standards didn't adequately address and several agencies had developed their own workarounds for, so FHWA initiated a study and adopted a new signal standard which addressed the problem.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cu2010 on September 22, 2015, 05:02:26 AM
There is one now up at the intersection of NY190 and NY374 outside of Plattsburgh... The first I've seen in R7.

It's a bit confusing though, as there's no sign explaining what the flashing yellow arrow actually means!

They also reused the existing spanwires...also odd considering that R7 has gone to mast arms!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
OK, I'm finally jumping into this thread on page 28, having always passed it over because I'd never encountered the FYA. But the other day I thought I'd better look up what FYA means in case I ever did see it, and a couple of days later I did indeed find my first one. (It was one of the NYC right-turn-only installations mentioned earlier in the thread, this time at 10th Avenue and 19th Street (https://goo.gl/maps/9jfRCB593u42) in Manhattan.)

My first concern, as has already been discussed, was the apparent conflict in meaning between FYA and every other flashing yellow (circular) indication I've ever seen–really, any yellow indication of any kind, flashing or no. That is, I should proceed with caution but I have the right-of-way; or, at the very least, I can expect no conflicting traffic that has priority over me, barring some outlying hazard that I should watch out for.

Others have pointed out that the meaning doesn't change, in fact, and that it's because I'm turning across traffic that the conflict comes about, and so I must yield my right-of-way to oncoming vehicles–and this is true for all the other flashing (or steady) yellow indications I've described as well. I can see this side of it also, and perhaps right there is the biggest obstacle to comprehension: that there are two ways this signal can be interpreted; it's not unambiguous.

Still, many of you have reported that driver comprehension is actually best for this indication, as compared to other variations that were considered. I agree that, had I never encountered any other type of flashing yellow signal, I think I would intuitively interpret it to mean what it's supposed to mean. But because of my prior experience with flashing yellow signals (such as caution beacons, "night mode" flashers with a two-way flashing red for cross traffic, or emergency signals), my first instinct would now be to assume greater protection than I actually have, or at the very least to suffer a few moments of indecision.

What I think it comes down to, and which I don't think has been addressed yet with respect to FYA, is the question of the meaning conveyed not by the color or the flashing of the aspect, but by the arrow shape itself. This can be interpreted one of two subtly different ways:

1) The rules for the roadway as a whole still apply, but are being directed only at motorists making the indicated movement.

2) The rules normally applied to the roadway as a whole are themselves being more more narrowly applied to the indicated movement.

This discrepancy is already familiar with red arrow indications and the question of whether they permit a right turn on red. In option (1), the motorist facing a red right arrow may turn after stopping, because this is the usual rule for the roadway as a whole. But in option (2), the usual rule that red means "stop until the light is green" is being narrowly applied to the right turn movement; so, if you're facing that signal, you stop, and you can't turn right until you have a green light.

To apply this to FYA, then, in option (1) the motorist must proceed with added caution, and has the right-of-way unless turning across conflicting traffic (which would be everyone facing that signal). But in option (2), the general expectation that you should proceed with caution, but can expect no conflicting traffic, is being specifically applied to the turning movement.

I'm guessing that for red arrows, most jurisdictions apply (1) and allow the right on red, but there are plenty of places where (2) takes precedence instead. For yellow signals, I think the overriding assumption is also (1), but those motorists who are accustomed to (2) may expect it to apply here as well. So it seems that if we could just agree on whether (1) or (2) is the true test of an arrow signal's meaning, we could eliminate the confusion (barring the fact that this may be a more complex line of thinking than motorists should ideally have to undertake while driving).

But here's the kicker: if we apply these tests to green arrows, then under option (1), motorists making the turn would have to yield to oncoming traffic, because overall, a green signal means proceed with right-of-way unless turning across traffic, which all of these motorists are. But under option (2), which is universally applied in the U.S., a green arrow means you may proceed and have the right-of-way with no conflicts for your specific movement; i.e., the left turn.

So in other words, if a FYA means yield to oncoming traffic, then a green arrow does too (and a red arrow means you can turn on red). But under long-established actual practice, a green arrow means go, free and clear; therefore, a yellow arrow means go, clear but with caution, and if flashing, this indication is ongoing rather than transitional (and a red arrow means no turn on red).

tl;dr: What a flashing yellow arrow means depends on three things: 1) what yellow means, 2) what flashing means, and 3) what an arrow means. So far, we haven't standardized all three, so the meaning remains intrinsically unclear.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on September 22, 2015, 03:56:36 PM
I mentioned this in the New York thread, but more FYAs from NYSDOT. Region 4 installed a bunch in Auburn, both the 4-section left turn and 3-section right turn varieties.

NYSDOT Region 1 will be installing them in Rensselaer, Saratoga and Washington Counties this Fall. One FYA was recently installed on NY 146 in Halfmoon.

Still no word from Region 5.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 04:17:03 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
<snip>
tl;dr: What a flashing yellow arrow means depends on three things: 1) what yellow means, 2) what flashing means, and 3) what an arrow means. So far, we haven't standardized all three, so the meaning remains intrinsically unclear.

Great write-up! I'd agree that there's not a universal blanket meaning placed on signal color or shape (or even solid/flashing operation), like you state. It all depends on a combination of the three as well as the context of the intersection in question and even what state you're in as far as what you can legally do in each case.

My take is, if you encountered an intersection of two two-way streets with one way flashing circular yellow and the other flashing circular red, and you're approaching facing the flashing yellow signals, how you approach that intersection depends on what way you plan to move through it. If you're going straight, you generally have the right of way (cross traffic has flashing red and needs to yield). However, if you're turning left, you should already know you need to yield to oncoming traffic.

The FYA means exactly the same thing to left-turning traffic as in the above example-they need to yield to oncoming traffic and pedestrians-but the FYA is able to do so both in normal operation and apply its meaning to left turning drivers only while separate signals control separate movements. It is impossible for a standard* doghouse signal to show both a permissive (not protected) signal to turn left while at the same time showing a circular red for through traffic to stop. Before the FYA (I believe) there was no way to indicate a permissive left turn independent of through traffic when all signals were visible to all drivers.

Of course this logic falls apart with flashing yellow right arrows. In the circular yellow example, you'd generally also have the right of way except for needing to yield to pedestrians when turning; however, if you meet a flashing yellow right arrow, there are either pedestrians to whom you must yield or cross traffic coming from your left. In the circular red/yellow example, this cross traffic would have a flashing red and need to stop; however, in the normal operation of a flashing yellow right arrow, traffic could be coming from your left in the cross street. So in this regard a flashing yellow right arrow is more different from a circular yellow than a flashing yellow left arrow is from the same circular yellow. Flashing yellow right arrow means there might be cross traffic coming from the left, while at the same time a flashing yellow left arrow means there is oncoming traffic but there shouldn't be cross traffic coming from your right - unless a state wants to get really bold and allow permissive lefts (without stopping) when there is cross traffic.

So now it depends on signal color, shape, solid/flashing, and even what direction (left or right) the arrow is pointing which determines not only what you can do but from where you can expect there to be conflicting traffic. Fun, eh?

However, I'd advocate for what I've seen Minnesota do at almost every FYA they have - post a sign that states something along the lines of "Left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow". (I'd also absolutely love similar signs here in Oregon and Washington that state "After stop left turn on red permitted" for all left turns onto one-way streets, especially those from two-way streets. People on this forum must know I have an axe to grind with that since I've seen only one other person make a left on red from a two-way to one-way around here and wish more people would know about and do the move when it's safe to do so.)

*Standard in this case means one not specially programmed to display a flashing yellow arrow indication. I know some signals exist which can do this. I'm talking about ones that can only display solid arrows and show a solid circular green to indicate permissive movement for left turning traffic and through movement for through traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 22, 2015, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 04:17:03 PM
(I'd also absolutely love similar signs here in Oregon and Washington that state "After stop left turn on red permitted" for all left turns onto one-way streets, especially those from two-way streets. People on this forum must know I have an axe to grind with that since I've seen only one other person make a left on red from a two-way to one-way around here and wish more people would know about and do the move when it's safe to do so.)

I concur. Luckily, I know of at least one situation where there is such a sign. Montlake @ Hamlin in Seattle. Hamlin runs one-way in opposite directions from Montlake, so both left turn lanes have this sign (hence why you can see another left turn lane in the background). They're both technically left turns onto one-ways:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEbBqUo1.png&hash=9ff7553bdbd948038edbca99d969d04f8661f3d6)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 05:03:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2015, 04:43:14 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 04:17:03 PM
(I'd also absolutely love similar signs here in Oregon and Washington that state "After stop left turn on red permitted" for all left turns onto one-way streets, especially those from two-way streets. People on this forum must know I have an axe to grind with that since I've seen only one other person make a left on red from a two-way to one-way around here and wish more people would know about and do the move when it's safe to do so.)

I concur. Luckily, I know of at least one situation where there is such a sign. Montlake @ Hamlin in Seattle. Hamlin runs one-way in opposite directions from Montlake, so both left turn lanes have this sign (hence why you can see another left turn lane in the background). They're both technically left turns onto one-ways:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FEbBqUo1.png&hash=9ff7553bdbd948038edbca99d969d04f8661f3d6)

Wow, how did I miss seeing this sign?! I was last in that area a little over 3 years ago so I don't know if those signs were posted back then, but I would have definitely done a double take when seeing it.

I also don't think I've ever seen any indication (out in the field or in RCW) where a U-turn on red is permitted. The only one I've seen so far is that image you posted, and while it doesn't mean a U-turn on red is legal everywhere in WA (I highly doubt it is) at least it is at that one intersection. However the U-turn here kinda makes sense because in order to get onto SR 520 westbound from Montlake northbound, or from SR 520 westbound onto Montlake southbound, you have to make that U-turn there, and it probably helps cut down on traffic allowing drivers to make the left on red there.

Also I found it interesting that the signal that faces northbound traffic is an arrow, yet the sign shows a red circle. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6455593,-122.3044832,3a,27.2y,327.33h,106.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6JAjZZZ_UnKiBFeB70bnfQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 22, 2015, 05:14:15 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 05:03:17 PM
I also don't think I've ever seen any indication (out in the field or in RCW) where a U-turn on red is permitted. The only one I've seen so far is that image you posted, and while it doesn't mean a U-turn on red is legal everywhere in WA (I highly doubt it is) at least it is at that one intersection. However the U-turn here kinda makes sense because in order to get onto SR 520 westbound from Montlake northbound, or from SR 520 westbound onto Montlake southbound, you have to make that U-turn there, and it probably helps cut down on traffic allowing drivers to make the left on red there.

It's a very heavily used left turn/u-turn going northbound on Montlake for the exact reasons you've stated. If they didn't have the signs I'm sure traffic would back-up pretty horrendously. As far as a U-turn on red, indeed this is the only example that I'm aware of anywhere in Washington or Oregon, or really the whole of the US. I'm going to post this to the "unique odd or interesting" thread to see if anyone else has seen this before.

Quote from: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 05:03:17 PM
Also I found it interesting that the signal that faces northbound traffic is an arrow, yet the sign shows a red circle. https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6455593,-122.3044832,3a,27.2y,327.33h,106.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6JAjZZZ_UnKiBFeB70bnfQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Also interesting is that they replaced the signal a few years ago. I'm surprised they didn't replace the signal with an FYA, since Seattle has them all over the place now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on September 22, 2015, 05:39:53 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2015, 05:14:15 PM
Also interesting is that they replaced the signal a few years ago. I'm surprised they didn't replace the signal with an FYA, since Seattle has them all over the place now.

Hmm... I wonder if SDOT (or whoever is responsible for maintaining the signal/intersection) thought it was unsafe to allow permissive U-turns without stopping, given such turns are made much more slowly, and since there is a lot of U-turning traffic, could present a problem for oncoming traffic that need to slow down in case a bunch of U-turners just blindly follow each other on the FYA without checking for oncoming traffic. The red arrow at least legally requires them to stop, and the green arrow protects the movements.

Of course, permissive U-turns are allowed at virtually every other intersection in Washington (except where prohibited by signs) given that Washington I believe has no general prohibition of U-turns at traffic signals. So if Washington can allow U-turns at any old green light, why can't it here with a FYA?

(That's also the only major difference I've found between Washington and Oregon's traffic laws, that Washington generally allows U-turns at signals (and anywhere else along a flat, straight road) and Oregon generally prohibits them at signals. Everything else down to marked/unmarked crosswalks and turning at red signals (circular or arrow) is the same between them it seems. Thankfully Oregon does allow U-turns within city limits at unsignalized intersections which I've had to take advantage of from time to time. Still doesn't stop the many drivers I see illegally make the U-turn at signals in Oregon when no sign permitting the turn is there.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on September 22, 2015, 06:37:50 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
tl;dr: What a flashing yellow arrow means depends on three things: 1) what yellow means, 2) what flashing means, and 3) what an arrow means. So far, we haven't standardized all three, so the meaning remains intrinsically unclear.

Good summary. 

We've had this discussion before, maybe in this thread. The problem is that there is no signal for "yield" - only for stop, about to stop, or go.  They had to make up something for a left turn signal.  FYA that doesn't mean go turned out to be the accepted standard.  (As opposed to the MI and maybe other implementations of a flashing red ball that doesn't mean stop.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wisvishr0 on September 24, 2015, 12:07:31 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
tl;dr: What a flashing yellow arrow means depends on three things: 1) what yellow means, 2) what flashing means, and 3) what an arrow means. So far, we haven't standardized all three, so the meaning remains intrinsically unclear.

Oh. My. God. You have summed up ALL the issues I've had with flashing yellows (and the reasons for me having those issues) in one comprehensive, concise and easy to understand exposition. You. Are. Amazing.

Maryland doesn't have flashing yellow left arrows, and here, you're not allowed to turn right on a red arrow, so I've ALWAYS interpreted signals through paradigm number (2) in your write-up. It just meshes with *my* experiences as a driver in Maryland. I realized that other people have had other experiences that make them think otherwise, so I stepped out of the discussion earlier this year.

I'm reiterating a point I made earlier, but I think there *is* one silver-bullet that *could've* prevented this ambiguity, at least when interpreting signals through option (2): using flashing green orbs to replace flashing yellow orbs (i.e. you have the right of way if you're going straight, but people might try to turn across the intersection in front of you, and you might have to stop for pedestrians). That would free up flashing yellow to mean "yield to all other vehicles and pedestrians," which actually could have a lot of applications even beyond permissive left turns.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. Flashing green is already used in some places (e.g. British Columbia and Quebec) to mean different things. And "demoting" flashing yellow signals could have disastrous consequences, as people might still think they have the right of way on approaching them.

Right now, I think the best solution is to require that all states put up signs at all flashing yellow lefts explaining that you have to yield, as Ace10 suggested. *Sigh...* I wish we lived in a more perfect world. :(

Of course, my entire post falls apart when looking at it through option (1), which is still a valid interpretation. But if option (1) is valid, we'd need a more logical way to portray protected left turns, as you mentioned. So bleargh, this is just a really messy issue that doesn't have an elegant solution.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 24, 2015, 12:44:06 AM
I've always maintained that driving requires some degree of intuition. Whether or not this can applied to the issue here (as far as how an FYA can be interpreted), I'm unsure. On one hand, context is extremely important to any situation, and signals based on context (meanings those which depend on the environment) shouldn't cause an issue; a flashing yellow arrow above your lane should mean "yield in the direction pointed", even if flashing yellow means something else entirely at another intersection. But on the other hand, a signal with two meanings, is, in the best use of the word, a bit misleading.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on September 24, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 24, 2015, 12:44:06 AM
But on the other hand, a signal with two meanings, is, in the best use of the word, a bit misleading.

Another example of a signal indication with two different meanings... the alternating flashing red ball.  This is what Michigan's drivers are taught to do for each situation (Source: Michigan's What Every Driver Must Know SOS handbook).   

Railroad crossing:  Stop when the balls are ringing, the lights are flashing or the gate is down or in motion.  Do not drive through, around or under any railroad crossing system.

Schoolbus:  When the red overhead lights are flashing, stop at least 20 feet from the school bus. Remain stopped until the flashing red lights are turned off or the bus resumes its travels. 

HAWK:  Alternating flashing red — Stop and proceed only when clear.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on September 24, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on September 24, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
Stop when the balls are ringing

That's what she said.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 24, 2015, 02:47:00 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 24, 2015, 02:32:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on September 24, 2015, 01:57:52 PM
Stop when the balls are ringing

That's what she said.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FM0bWify.gif&hash=c43f57a365e6ad617144b5992c9437b82ee09aa2)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Super Mateo on September 26, 2015, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.

The only places this happens on the IL side of Chicagoland is either adjacent to a railroad track or when a series of lights are so close to each other that they are timed together.  They are accompanied by "Oncoming Traffic Has Longer Green" signs.

I did see the FYA on US 6 in NW IN the other day.  I was stopped on the side with the leading left.  The other side had lagging, and the driver with the FYA didn't know what to do, so she just went into reverse back into the turning lane. (No one was behind her.)

I get what FYA's are supposed to do.  I just don't see why they're necessary.  If you want lagging lefts, or yellow trap is a problem, then use protected turns only.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 26, 2015, 10:34:53 PM
Quote from: wisvishr0 on September 24, 2015, 12:07:31 AM
Quote from: empirestate on September 22, 2015, 03:47:35 PM
tl;dr: What a flashing yellow arrow means depends on three things: 1) what yellow means, 2) what flashing means, and 3) what an arrow means. So far, we haven't standardized all three, so the meaning remains intrinsically unclear.

Oh. My. God. You have summed up ALL the issues I've had with flashing yellows (and the reasons for me having those issues) in one comprehensive, concise and easy to understand exposition. You. Are. Amazing.

Maryland doesn't have flashing yellow left arrows, and here, you're not allowed to turn right on a red arrow, so I've ALWAYS interpreted signals through paradigm number (2) in your write-up. It just meshes with *my* experiences as a driver in Maryland. I realized that other people have had other experiences that make them think otherwise, so I stepped out of the discussion earlier this year.

I'm reiterating a point I made earlier, but I think there *is* one silver-bullet that *could've* prevented this ambiguity, at least when interpreting signals through option (2): using flashing green orbs to replace flashing yellow orbs (i.e. you have the right of way if you're going straight, but people might try to turn across the intersection in front of you, and you might have to stop for pedestrians). That would free up flashing yellow to mean "yield to all other vehicles and pedestrians," which actually could have a lot of applications even beyond permissive left turns.

Unfortunately, it's too late for that. Flashing green is already used in some places (e.g. British Columbia and Quebec) to mean different things. And "demoting" flashing yellow signals could have disastrous consequences, as people might still think they have the right of way on approaching them.

Right now, I think the best solution is to require that all states put up signs at all flashing yellow lefts explaining that you have to yield, as Ace10 suggested. *Sigh...* I wish we lived in a more perfect world. :(

Of course, my entire post falls apart when looking at it through option (1), which is still a valid interpretation. But if option (1) is valid, we'd need a more logical way to portray protected left turns, as you mentioned. So bleargh, this is just a really messy issue that doesn't have an elegant solution.

I also tend to agree with the above.  It seems that to provide signal indications that are not yet standardized, the highway department needs to define their own meaning, even if it lacks consistency.

These are the usual meanings for the following signals in the US.  Unfortunately, even this is not consistent among all 50 states.  I advocate for one meaning for each signal and if there is an exception, even the exception applies statewide in your state but not in other states, it must be clearly signed.  For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

1)solild red ball - stop and wait to go straight or turn left (exc. one-way to one-way).  right turn on red permitted after stop.
2)solid yellow ball - slow down.  light will soon change to red
3)solid green ball - proceed.  unless there are arrow indications, yield to on-coming traffic on left turns and yield to pedestrians on right turns.

4)flashing red ball - STOP sign equivalent.  stop and proceed when clear.  the other street has the right of way, unless this is a 4-way stop when you will alternate turns

5)flashing yellow ball - some form of caution.  Usually informs you of an intersection where you have right of way and other street has a stop sign

flashing green ball - no meaning in US

??? - YIELD sign equivalent (no current indication for YIELD for straight thru traffic

6)solid red arrow - stop and wait to make the turn.  No turn on red arrow.
7)solid yellow arrow - slow down.  light will soon change to red
8)solid green arrow - proceed.  you have the right of way over any other conflicting car or pedestrian movement* to make the indicated turn. 

9)flashing red arrow - STOP sign equivalent.  stop and proceed when clear.  Flashing red left arrow: STOP and then proceed with turn while yielding to oncoming traffic.  Flashing red right arrow: STOP and the proceed with turn while yielding to pedestrians and/or traffic on the street you're turning onto. 

10) flashing yellow arrow - YIELD sign equivalent for turns.  Full stop not required.  Flashing yellow left arrow: Yield to oncoming traffic before proceeding with turn.  Flashing yellow right arrow: YIELD and then proceed with turn while yielding to pedestrians and/or traffic on the street you're turning onto.

flashing green arrow - no meaning in US

So essentially, we have to memorize 10 inconsistent signal indications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 26, 2015, 10:54:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 26, 2015, 10:34:53 PM
For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign left-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case (https://goo.gl/QnAJPV). Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 27, 2015, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 26, 2015, 10:54:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 26, 2015, 10:34:53 PM
For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign right-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case (https://goo.gl/QnAJPV). Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.

My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

Example:  right turn on red after stop is the norm.  In New York City, the general rule is no turn on red (with signs indicating this only at major crossings into the city).  I would require NYC to put in a no turn on red at every intersection.

Example: left turn on red from one-way to one-way generally permitted.  left turn on red not otherwise permitted.  Washington state permits this turn from a two-way to a one-way.  That's OK.  Just add a sign wherever this occurs "Left on red permitted after stop"  I'm sure that even in the biggest cities, this situation occurs less than 100 times.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on September 27, 2015, 11:15:49 AM
Quote from: Super Mateo on September 26, 2015, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on September 04, 2015, 03:56:19 AM
After looking through all this, I finally figured out the "yellow trap" issue...but I'm now confused as to why this isn't resolved by simply having the signal phasing not create the "yellow trap" in the first place, instead of creating an entirely new signal type?

Problem: A yellow signal in one direction when the other direction remains green.
Logical solution: Don't have a signal phase when there is a yellow signal in one direction while the other direction remains green.
FHWA solution: Study the problem and then create a new signal phase.

I honestly can't say I've ever encountered a "yellow trapped" signal; the signals always in my experience go through the full cycle, even when there isn't opposing traffic, avoiding the issue altogether. The only "trailing" left-turn phases I've encountered have been at fully protected signals.

The only places this happens on the IL side of Chicagoland is either adjacent to a railroad track or when a series of lights are so close to each other that they are timed together.  They are accompanied by "Oncoming Traffic Has Longer Green" signs.

I did see the FYA on US 6 in NW IN the other day.  I was stopped on the side with the leading left.  The other side had lagging, and the driver with the FYA didn't know what to do, so she just went into reverse back into the turning lane. (No one was behind her.)

I get what FYA's are supposed to do.  I just don't see why they're necessary.  If you want lagging lefts, or yellow trap is a problem, then use protected turns only.
So if a city wants to help progression and traffic flow by timing the lights better, and it requires lagging lefts, your solution is to hurt traffic flow by removing the permissive lefts?

I think its being made overly complicated.
1) Solid red: Stop and wait. Some turns on red permitted.
2) Solid yellow: The current phase is ending and there is about to be a new signal, likely red. If it is safe to do so, stop so you can follow the new instruction. (solid yellow does not have to go to red, it can go to flashing yellow)
3) Solid green: proceed.  unless there are arrow indications, yield to on-coming traffic on left turns and yield to pedestrians on right turns.
4) Flashing red - STOP sign equivalent
5) Flashing yellow - treat following the normal ROW order as if there was no signal. Flashing yellows typically never change the meaning of anything on the road (unless signed "when flashing"), intersections are no different. Flashing usually indicates that you should be more aware of the situation though as attention is being drawn to it.

Arrow signal: Follow the exact same rules as above, except the signal only applies to the direction it is indicating.
To review normal ROW order:
1) Pedestrians always have ROW, everyone must yield to pedestrians
2) Through traffic on the main corridor (not facing a STOP or YIELD sign)
3) Turning traffic on the main corridor
4) Vehicles facing YIELD signs
5) Vehicles facing STOP signs
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 27, 2015, 02:23:13 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2015, 07:59:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 26, 2015, 10:54:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 26, 2015, 10:34:53 PM
For example most states do not allow left on red, except one-way to one-way.  But for the states that do allow it, put it in a sign.

Washington does not sign rightleft-on-red onto one-way streets, except in one incredibly rare one-off case (https://goo.gl/QnAJPV). Washington is one of the few states to permit lefts onto one ways from two-way streets.

<clipped>

Just want to clarify that I meant left-on-red in my original comment, not right. But I think you probably already know that.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 29, 2015, 01:49:06 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2015, 07:59:00 AM
My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 29, 2015, 02:13:06 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on September 27, 2015, 11:15:49 AM
1) Solid red: Stop and wait. Some turns on red permitted.
2) Solid yellow: The current phase is ending and there is about to be a new signal, likely red. If it is safe to do so, stop so you can follow the new instruction. (solid yellow does not have to go to red, it can go to flashing yellow)
3) Solid green: proceed.  unless there are arrow indications, yield to on-coming traffic on left turns and yield to pedestrians on right turns.
4) Flashing red - STOP sign equivalent
5) Flashing yellow - treat following the normal ROW order as if there was no signal. Flashing yellows typically never change the meaning of anything on the road (unless signed "when flashing"), intersections are no different. Flashing usually indicates that you should be more aware of the situation though as attention is being drawn to it.

Arrow signal: Follow the exact same rules as above, except the signal only applies to the direction it is indicating and green arrows do not require yielding to pedestrians

This is actually a pretty accurate description of the current meanings of signals, with a slight modification. The only other note would be that in #5, a "when flashing" situation is technically a beacon and not related to traffic signals.

Quote from: UCFKnights on September 27, 2015, 11:15:49 AM
To review normal ROW order:
1) Pedestrians always have ROW, everyone must yield to pedestrians
2) Through traffic on the main corridor (not facing a STOP or YIELD sign)
3) Turning traffic on the main corridor
4) Vehicles facing YIELD signs
5) Vehicles facing STOP signs

The ROW rules are a bit more complex than this, but this works for illustration purposes. On point 3, it is important to note that right turning traffic has precedence over left turning traffic.


EDIT: Added italicized statement in first quote about signal meanings.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on September 29, 2015, 12:39:38 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 29, 2015, 02:13:06 AM
The ROW rules are a bit more complex than this, but this works for illustration purposes. On point 3, it is important to note that right turning traffic has precedence over left turning traffic.
I wish more people were aware of that.  I've had situations while turning where right turning traffic would stop for me going left (making everything take longer while they figure out that they do, in fact, have the right of way) as well as left turning people who don't yield when I'm turning right.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on September 29, 2015, 02:18:08 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 29, 2015, 01:49:06 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2015, 07:59:00 AM
My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).

The "no turn on red" prohibition is signed as a blanket at every entrance to the City, when exiting airports, and at some other locations. The UVC was created by a private group. Basically, it's a document created by lobbyists.  New York's right on red prohibition was instituted loooooong before the UVC was even a thing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 30, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
Quote from: cl94 on September 29, 2015, 02:18:08 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 29, 2015, 01:49:06 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2015, 07:59:00 AM
My point is that every sign and signal should have one consistent meaning in all 50 states.  To the extent that a state wants to carve out an exception for itself, that 's OK - so long as it is signed at every relevant intersection.

There is a national guideline, the Uniform Vehicle Code, that has the goal of a uniform set of motor vehicle traffic laws across the U.S. Unfortunately, there is nothing that compels the states to adopt all the laws in the UVC. My understanding is that many states and jurisdictions adopt most if not all UVC provisions (e.g. right turn on red) but some areas have laws that go against it (e.g. New York City).

The "no turn on red" prohibition is signed as a blanket at every entrance to the City, when exiting airports, and at some other locations. The UVC was created by a private group. Basically, it's a document created by lobbyists.  New York's right on red prohibition was instituted loooooong before the UVC was even a thing.

Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.  Philly and other big cities wanted a similar exemption but did not get it, so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign.  But NYC gets a blanket exemption from a rule that is  applicable everywhere else with the only signage being at the city line.

So even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 30, 2015, 08:27:35 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 30, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
... so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign...

A lot of intersections are signed, but not *every* intersection is signed.  This busy intersection at 12th & Market, for example, permits RTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/Nv5Vm54uFkL2

And this busy intersection at 17th & JFK Blvd permits LTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/We6SLEDnSKQ2
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on September 30, 2015, 08:35:33 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 30, 2015, 08:27:35 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 30, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
... so Philly signs every intersection in Center City with a no turn on red sign...

A lot of intersections are signed, but not *every* intersection is signed.  This busy intersection at 12th & Market, for example, permits RTOR. https://goo.gl/maps/Nv5Vm54uFkL2
There is a No Turn on Red sign on the pole on the far side of the intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on September 30, 2015, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 30, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.

It wasn't quite as automatic as that; the law only grants million-plus cities the right to enact a NTOR law, which of course NYC promptly did. But the result is the same.

QuoteSo even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.

You'd still be talking about many hundreds of intersections all over Manhattan, not to mention large parts of most outer boroughs, where NTOR would still be found appropriate, and that's a lot of signs. I do appreciate your interest in wanting to standardize the meaning of signal aspects (I think it's a much more important thing to standardize than exit-numbering schemata), but for whatever reason, compliance seems to be quite high in NYC already.

As for Staten Island and other far-outer borough areas, I could see a blanket rule being enacted to permit RTOR there; as it is, they already sign a great many intersections with permission.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on September 30, 2015, 12:28:30 PM
Quote from: empirestate on September 30, 2015, 10:33:04 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 30, 2015, 07:23:47 AM
Maybe someone can clarify, but my understanding is that NY and most Eastern states had no turn on red as the rule for many years.  Then, after the oil crisis of the 1970's the laws were changed as a gas saving measure.  NY's law was written in a way that automatically exempted NYC (except for a city with more than a million people) so that NYC would maintain no turn on red.

It wasn't quite as automatic as that; the law only grants million-plus cities the right to enact a NTOR law, which of course NYC promptly did. But the result is the same.

QuoteSo even if NYC is maintaining their own standard, I am suggesting that because they are enforcing a rule that does not exist elsewhere, it should be signed at every intersection where it's applicable.  My own hope is that it would force the authorities to actually determine which intersections the rule makes sense (lots of pedestrians, weird intersection geometry, blind spots) and have the other intersections follow the general US rule and allow turns on red.  I feel that there's no reason why northern Bronx or Eastern Queens or SI should have this rule, when similar neighborhoods just over the city line don't.

You'd still be talking about many hundreds of intersections all over Manhattan, not to mention large parts of most outer boroughs, where NTOR would still be found appropriate, and that's a lot of signs. I do appreciate your interest in wanting to standardize the meaning of signal aspects (I think it's a much more important thing to standardize than exit-numbering schemata), but for whatever reason, compliance seems to be quite high in NYC already.

As for Staten Island and other far-outer borough areas, I could see a blanket rule being enacted to permit RTOR there; as it is, they already sign a great many intersections with permission.

Yes. Sight distances, traffic and high pedestrian volumes make RTOR unsafe, if not impossible in some situations. Compliance is very high (most people that drive in New York are quite familiar with the laws). Even with that, NYCDOT is upgrading T-intersections to FYAs, and as a red arrow means "no turn on red" in New York (and per the MUTCD), making installation of signs relatively unnecessary. Heck, most major intersections on Long Island are NTOR as well.

As said above, we're probably talking the majority of signalized intersections in the City outside of Staten Island that need to be NTOR. It's just easier to have a blanket restriction. Every intersection in Manhattan should be NTOR, as should western Queens/Brooklyn and most of the Bronx. At hundreds of dollars per sign, we'd probably be talking hundreds of thousands of dollars to sign every intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on October 04, 2015, 05:03:07 PM
Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cappicard on October 05, 2015, 08:51:47 AM
Quote from: steviep24 on October 04, 2015, 05:03:07 PM
Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.
My town, Lenexa, Kansas, and neighboring Overland Park and Olathe put in those flashing yellows last year.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on October 14, 2015, 08:25:57 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on October 04, 2015, 05:03:07 PM
Spotted a new one in Rochester on NY 33 at The Home Depot/Movie Theatre entrance today.
In addition to this one a FYA went into operation this week at NY 33/Pixley Rd.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: pctech on October 15, 2015, 01:38:46 PM
I was in CO. a couple of weeks ago. Pretty common sight there, but not in Denver itself.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on October 23, 2015, 02:22:34 PM
Quote from: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv


Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mohkfry on October 23, 2015, 02:55:28 PM
Ever since INDOT Northwest put the first one in on US 30 in Schererville, IN back in February, they've been popping up like weeds. Both protected and permissive lefts are getting replaced with the FYA signal. Despite the FYA craze, a new install went into action in Whiting, IN and to my surprise, features doghouse signals instead of a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on October 23, 2015, 03:33:58 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 23, 2015, 02:22:34 PM
Quote from: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv


Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.

Beat me to the punch. I don't see New Jersey adopting it anytime soon.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Fntp on October 24, 2015, 04:48:14 PM
Penndot rejected it because they think that their residents are to stupid to understand it but thats pa for ya  :pan:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on October 24, 2015, 08:03:39 PM
As of today, Kane County, IL, has gotten FYA's up and running for the first two signals on Randall Road north of Fabyan Parkway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on October 27, 2015, 08:22:32 PM
Quote from: Fntp on October 24, 2015, 04:48:14 PM
Penndot rejected it because they think that their residents are to stupid to understand it but thats pa for ya  :pan:

Do you have proof of PennDOT saying that?  Last I heard, they were still thinking about it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on November 03, 2015, 05:46:09 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on October 23, 2015, 02:22:34 PM
Quote from: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv


Eh?

Let me know where you find it in New Jersey & Delaware.

Delaware has the flashing red arrow that is basically everywhere.  IMO that's functionally equivalent to the FYA, except with the additional requirement to stop before turning.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Fntp on November 08, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on October 27, 2015, 08:22:32 PM
Quote from: Fntp on October 24, 2015, 04:48:14 PM
Penndot rejected it because they think that their residents are to stupid to understand it but thats pa for ya  :pan:

Do you have proof of PennDOT saying that?  Last I heard, they were still thinking about it.

Not that I know of but last time they mentioned it which was back in 2011, it was rejected and never really brought up.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
I spotted a 3 section FYA signal today on a new install with no green arrow. Just the two yellow arrows and red arrow. This is a NYSDOT installation in Rochester, NY. Is a permissive only FLA signal really needed?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on November 10, 2015, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
I spotted a 3 section FYA signal today on a new install with no green arrow. Just the two yellow arrows and red arrow. This is a NYSDOT installation in Rochester, NY. Is a permissive only FLA signal really needed?

You talking about the one on NY 33 near Wegman Rd? Quite possible that NYSDOT just wants to emphasize the permissive nature of the turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Quote from: cl94 on November 10, 2015, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
I spotted a 3 section FYA signal today on a new install with no green arrow. Just the two yellow arrows and red arrow. This is a NYSDOT installation in Rochester, NY. Is a permissive only FLA signal really needed?

You talking about the one on NY 33 near Wegman Rd? Quite possible that NYSDOT just wants to emphasize the permissive nature of the turn.
That's the one. NY 33 at Pixley Rd. When it was first activated a few weeks ago the FYA's there were 4 section but I noticed today they removed the green arrows from them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on November 10, 2015, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 04:23:05 PM
Quote from: cl94 on November 10, 2015, 03:54:20 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
I spotted a 3 section FYA signal today on a new install with no green arrow. Just the two yellow arrows and red arrow. This is a NYSDOT installation in Rochester, NY. Is a permissive only FLA signal really needed?

You talking about the one on NY 33 near Wegman Rd? Quite possible that NYSDOT just wants to emphasize the permissive nature of the turn.
That's the one. NY 33 at Pixley Rd. When it was first activated a few weeks ago the FYA's there were 4 section but I noticed today they removed the green arrows from them.

If it's the one I think it is, it is for a driveway. No reason to have a protected phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on November 10, 2015, 10:29:50 PM
Quote from: steviep24 on November 10, 2015, 03:28:31 PM
Is a permissive only FLA signal really needed?

In areas where FYA's are used for all protected-permitted turns, using a three-section FYA permissive only head makes it easier to tell from a distance that one can actually turn left at the intersection (especially if the left turn lane is rather short).  The three-section FYA head would also allow any opposing left turn to be run as a lagging left if necessary.

In most cases though, unless the turn is for a small driveway, I would lean towards using a four-section head anyway in case traffic changes to eventually need a protected phase for the left turn.  Easier to change a few setting in a controller than having to install new/rebuild existing signal heads.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 11, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
Nevada has had the FYA for a while.

I just discovered the other day that NDOT's 2015 standard plans update proposes removing references to 5-section left turn signal heads in favor of 4-section FYAs.

This makes sense, as municipalities have been slowly removing 5-section signal heads in favor of FYAs. Current Nevada signal standards provide for one overhead signal per lane, so there is no situation in new construction or renovation where a doghouse display would be necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 41 on February 19, 2016, 09:43:44 PM
INDOT is now installing flashing yellow arrows on US 40 in Vigo County. I drove on it last night and they have installed them at Hunt St, the US 40/SR 46/Wabash Intersection, and at the Hulman St intersection so far. They are also supposed to install them at several intersections on US 41 as well according to the local newspaper.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

Since Mercer County is in IDOT D4-Peoria, maybe we might see more in District 4?

The Kane County DOT has been discussing them as well.
http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/constProjects/randallHSIP.aspx
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: route56 on February 22, 2016, 06:36:48 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

Since Mercer County is in IDOT D4-Peoria, maybe we might see more in District 4?

The Kane County DOT has been discussing them as well.
http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/constProjects/randallHSIP.aspx

FYAs have been in use in IDOT D4 since at least late 2012.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 22, 2016, 08:34:42 AM
Quote from: route56 on February 22, 2016, 06:36:48 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

FYAs have been in use in IDOT D4 since at least late 2012.

You're 6 years behind noting Illinois' use of the FYA.  Within this thread, Troubleshooter noticed back in 2010 Illinois was already using the flashing yellow arrow...

Quote from: Troubleshooter on July 29, 2010, 01:47:52 AM
Quote
I sincerely doubt IDOT (much less the municipalities) will change and start using the FYA.  They don't even use doghouse assemblies here (which I can see getting mixed up easier as the green ball and green arrow are next to each other).

Peoria already has FYA. And it has been written into the Illinois driving code.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on February 22, 2016, 09:23:47 AM
^lel woops.  I saw the quoted-quote but not the quote you posted, so I thought it was still fair game.
Hopefully the Kane County bit is still a new development though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JoePCool14 on February 25, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

Since Mercer County is in IDOT D4-Peoria, maybe we might see more in District 4?

The Kane County DOT has been discussing them as well.
http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/constProjects/randallHSIP.aspx

Looking at the old one, I'm not sure why they felt the need to replace it with a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 25, 2016, 05:18:37 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 25, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

Since Mercer County is in IDOT D4-Peoria, maybe we might see more in District 4?

The Kane County DOT has been discussing them as well.
http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/constProjects/randallHSIP.aspx

Looking at the old one, I'm not sure why they felt the need to replace it with a FYA.

You can operate protected/permissive turns with lead/lag protocols if need-be, and they've also been proven to be safer (drivers sometimes mistake the solid green over a turn lane to mean protected turn).

Many cities across the country have been replacing 5-section signals with FYAs for these reasons, among others.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on February 25, 2016, 05:52:29 PM
Quote from: JoePCool14 on February 25, 2016, 04:31:35 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 21, 2016, 12:50:16 AM
Flashing yellows have, in fact made it to Illinois!  I was amazed when I saw this one in Mercer County :
https://goo.gl/maps/A7t3vyoNTvq

Since Mercer County is in IDOT D4-Peoria, maybe we might see more in District 4?

The Kane County DOT has been discussing them as well.
http://www.co.kane.il.us/dot/constProjects/randallHSIP.aspx

Looking at the old one, I'm not sure why they felt the need to replace it with a FYA.

A FYA head can be used to run protected-only lefts for certain parts of the day while allowing permissive lefts at other times.  Given the volume on Randall, I wouldn't be surprised if Kane County does that some year.

EDIT: 
Kane County though has not made a complete switch for all new signals, as there are a couple newer signals (which plans were completed after the Randall Road project was let) still using five section heads.


Given one of the sets of plans on the March Letting for IDOT (link; see Page 11/72) (http://eplan.dot.il.gov/desenv/030416/049-72G95/PLANS/PL-72G95-049-101-172.pdf)), looks like District 6 (Springfield) will be using for more than just Wabash Avenue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on February 25, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
Looking at what as gone up and what will be going up, NYSDOT Regions 1 and 4 have been increasingly choosing FYAs for protected-permissive installs. I've seen a surprising amount driving around R1. R4 has a decent amount of three-section permissive-only ones. Region 5, on the other hand, has zero with no public plans to install any.

I also was in Massachusetts lately and saw at least one on/around US 7. Appears their plan to convert all state-owned doghouses to FYAs is underway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on February 26, 2016, 07:25:03 AM
Quote from: cl94 on February 25, 2016, 06:19:53 PM
Looking at what as gone up and what will be going up, NYSDOT Regions 1 and 4 have been increasingly choosing FYAs for protected-permissive installs. I've seen a surprising amount driving around R1. R4 has a decent amount of three-section permissive-only ones. Region 5, on the other hand, has zero with no public plans to install any.

I also was in Massachusetts lately and saw at least one on/around US 7. Appears their plan to convert all state-owned doghouses to FYAs is underway.

The one in Lenox on US 7 was a test case and was installed prior to development of the conversion plan. That being said, there are a number popping up in the eastern half of the state. Some are part of the conversion plan, others are projects where the design was developed and/or finalized after MassDOT started asking designers to include FYA (where appropriate).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on February 29, 2016, 10:58:00 PM
Look what I just found in Indiana!  On US30 just west of Fort Wayne:
(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1695/25276180232_66b521bd62_k.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 01, 2016, 01:35:42 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on February 29, 2016, 10:58:00 PM
Look what I just found in Indiana!  On US30 just west of Fort Wayne:
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1695/25276180232_66b521bd62_k.jpg

Is it enabled? Or was this photo just taken between the protected and permissive phases?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on March 01, 2016, 09:35:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 01, 2016, 01:35:42 AM

Is it enabled? Or was this photo just taken between the protected and permissive phases?

I think the latter.  Or it might be a special case where only one side's left turns are permitted at a time, due to limited space in the intersection.  But I figured getting a pic with a solid arrow would be a surer shot than a pic of the flashing arrow  :D I did get visual confirmation of actual functional flashing yellow arrows though (i.e. they are enabled).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 06, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 01, 2016, 09:35:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 01, 2016, 01:35:42 AM

Is it enabled? Or was this photo just taken between the protected and permissive phases?

I think the latter.  Or it might be a special case where only one side's left turns are permitted at a time, due to limited space in the intersection.  But I figured getting a pic with a solid arrow would be a surer shot than a pic of the flashing arrow  :D I did get visual confirmation of actual functional flashing yellow arrows though (i.e. they are enabled).

Without referencing the specific signal in Indiana, one of the nice things about FYA is the flexibility that the signaling allows.  One could set the signal to be protected only (GA, YA, RA sequence) during busy times of the day and then protected/permitted (GA, YA, FYA, YA, RA [lead] or FYA, GA, YA, RA [lag]) at other times and then permitted only (FYA, YA, RA without GA) at other times.  So conceivably, there could be red arrow and green ball at the same time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 06, 2016, 02:57:27 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 06, 2016, 06:56:29 AM
Without referencing the specific signal in Indiana, one of the nice things about FYA is the flexibility that the signaling allows.  One could set the signal to be protected only (GA, YA, RA sequence) during busy times of the day and then protected/permitted (GA, YA, FYA, YA, RA [lead] or FYA, GA, YA, RA [lag]) at other times and then permitted only (FYA, YA, RA without GA) at other times.  So conceivably, there could be red arrow and green ball at the same time.

I've never fully understood why, during busy times, DOT's sometimes set pro/per signals to protected-only. Doesn't that inhibit the possible through-put of the left turn? If a light is flashing yellow, my instinct is to pull forward, go when clear, or, when the light goes to solid yellow, wait for oncoming traffic to stop, and then complete my turn. A red arrow would make this illegal (lest I was turning onto a one-way), thus increasing the number of cars waiting to turn left.

Federal Way, Washington has several of these TOD flashing yellows. 3/4 of the day, they operate with lagged protected turns (and they work exceptionally well), but there are several, which during the middle of the day, operate protected-only. Half the time, there's barely a handful of oncoming cars (example of an FYA that operates on a TOD schedule: https://goo.gl/kzRxK2). Even if no one gets through on the permissive phase, it doesn't hurt anything to have it flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Great Lakes Roads on March 06, 2016, 03:47:40 PM
Yesterday, when I was driving on CR-17 in Elkhart, I noticed that a couple intersections along this route upgraded the three-phased traffic heads to four-phased traffic head.

Before:
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6685753,-85.8875864,3a,75y,348.74h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEBe5EkiUH6sFifFJa6D2OA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6651549,-85.8873626,3a,75y,175.73h,77.47t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw6bzHKg96lvT3EyBJG0vZA!2e0!5s20130801T000000!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.6596567,-85.8873873,3a,75y,180.07h,90.96t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfGFhoPA8jHMpYR3fLk2ulg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DfGFhoPA8jHMpYR3fLk2ulg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D304.07138%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Fntp on March 11, 2016, 01:04:41 PM
As far as I'm concerned Pa and Wv are the only two states that don't use it
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2016, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: Fntp on March 11, 2016, 01:04:41 PM
As far as I'm concerned Pa and Wv are the only two states that don't use it

We know.

Quote from: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

And you're still wrong.  New Jersey doesn't use it either.  I don't believe Delaware uses it as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on March 11, 2016, 01:42:35 PM
Something interesting I hAve noticed on the FYA's on Hastings Way here in Eau Claire WI is when a protected phase isn't requested at the beginning of the cycle, upon thru traffic getting the green ball, the 4 sections remain red arrows for 3-4 seconds before switching to fya almost as if to prevent people turning left from cutting off oncoming traffic shall they fall to yield. Most fya I've seen start flashing when thru goes green unless oncoming left gets arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on March 11, 2016, 11:29:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 06, 2016, 02:57:27 PM
I've never fully understood why, during busy times, DOT's sometimes set pro/per signals to protected-only. Doesn't that inhibit the possible through-put of the left turn? If a light is flashing yellow, my instinct is to pull forward, go when clear, or, when the light goes to solid yellow, wait for oncoming traffic to stop, and then complete my turn. A red arrow would make this illegal (lest I was turning onto a one-way), thus increasing the number of cars waiting to turn left.

There are places where there are absolutely no gaps during the peak hours for left turners to take advantage of.  Couple this with the issue of left turners trying to sneak through before the side street gets a green (assuming the signal is leading left only) and getting creamed by an opposing through vehicle pushing the light, it becomes a trade off of getting maybe one or two more cars through per cycle versus the crash risk and liability.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 13, 2016, 01:34:20 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 11, 2016, 01:14:05 PM
Quote from: Fntp on March 11, 2016, 01:04:41 PM
As far as I'm concerned Pa and Wv are the only two states that don't use it

We know.

Quote from: Fntp on October 23, 2015, 01:54:42 PM
The only states that don't use this are Pa and Wv

And you're still wrong.  New Jersey doesn't use it either.  I don't believe Delaware uses it as well.

DE has extensive use of flashing red arrow, which is functionally equivalent to flashing yellow arrow to denote a permitted but not protected turn.  However, one must come to a complete stop before turning on a flashing red arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on March 13, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road.

There's one on Connecticut Avenue NW at DuPont Circle.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 13, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 13, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road.

There's one on Connecticut Avenue NW at DuPont Circle.

While both signals do mean yield, they do come in different contexts.  FYA is to denote the permitted left turn, yield to oncoming traffic.  Dupont Cirlce has FYA to the right and they are terrrible.  There is no protected phase at all for some of the turners.  You have a no turn on red that means you can't turn even at times when traffic is clear and get a FYA when traffic is still going through the circle.  Extremely dangerous. 

What they should do is allow for a right turn green signal when traffic on the circle has a red.  Those turning right should be reminded to yield to pedestrians, but they need their own phase to go through the circle.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 13, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 13, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road.

There's one on Connecticut Avenue NW at DuPont Circle.

While both signals do mean yield, they do come in different contexts.  FYA is to denote the permitted left turn, yield to oncoming traffic.  Dupont Cirlce has FYA to the right and they are terrrible.  There is no protected phase at all for some of the turners.  You have a no turn on red that means you can't turn even at times when traffic is clear and get a FYA when traffic is still going through the circle.  Extremely dangerous. 

What they should do is allow for a right turn green signal when traffic on the circle has a red.  Those turning right should be reminded to yield to pedestrians, but they need their own phase to go through the circle.

I was wondering when I would hear of people trying to use the flashing yellow concept for right turns.  It doesn't really make sense to have a flashing yellow right arrow when the green ball is lit, since someone turning right would have the right of way anyway, unless maybe there's a crosswalk to the right?  I couldn't see use for a red ball with a flashing right yellow arrow, either--if a right turn is permitted on green, it's usually because traffic from the right is turning left, forming two concentric turning movements...so you would just instate a green right arrow in that case.

Does anyone have an idea for a viable application of a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow?  I can't think of any (except maybe as a warning to watch for peds in a crosswalk before you turn right).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 13, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 13, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road.

There's one on Connecticut Avenue NW at DuPont Circle.

While both signals do mean yield, they do come in different contexts.  FYA is to denote the permitted left turn, yield to oncoming traffic.  Dupont Cirlce has FYA to the right and they are terrrible.  There is no protected phase at all for some of the turners.  You have a no turn on red that means you can't turn even at times when traffic is clear and get a FYA when traffic is still going through the circle.  Extremely dangerous. 

What they should do is allow for a right turn green signal when traffic on the circle has a red.  Those turning right should be reminded to yield to pedestrians, but they need their own phase to go through the circle.

I was wondering when I would hear of people trying to use the flashing yellow concept for right turns.  It doesn't really make sense to have a flashing yellow right arrow when the green ball is lit, since someone turning right would have the right of way anyway, unless maybe there's a crosswalk to the right?  I couldn't see use for a red ball with a flashing right yellow arrow, either--if a right turn is permitted on green, it's usually because traffic from the right is turning left, forming two concentric turning movements...so you would just instate a green right arrow in that case.

Does anyone have an idea for a viable application of a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow?  I can't think of any (except maybe as a warning to watch for peds in a crosswalk before you turn right).

From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 14, 2016, 02:20:34 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 09:42:04 AM
Does anyone have an idea for a viable application of a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow?  I can't think of any (except maybe as a warning to watch for peds in a crosswalk before you turn right).

Right-facing FYA's are the best way to signalized a crosswalk at an intersection with a right-turn bypass lane. Utah has a couple right-facing FYA's for this purpose. You could just as easily install a normal R/Y/G signal face, but that's like putting a stop sign on a merge, the one place where this country routinely installs yield signs.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FLLBScDb.png&hash=90bed03672fdd25294f11e84bbde017faac3cf83)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited

In situations where a right turn on red is permitted after a stop, isn't that already implied?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited

In situations where a right turn on red is permitted after a stop, isn't that already implied?

The only difference would be some vehicles are prohibited from turning right on red at all times, and some motorists refuse to turn right on red.  A flashing yellow permits those vehicles to turn. 

A yield sign would probably work just as well.  The only real reason this light is here is probably for the pedestrian crossing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on March 14, 2016, 04:36:06 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited

In situations where a right turn on red is permitted after a stop, isn't that already implied?

Yes. I can only see it being useful in areas where it is important to confirm that drivers can make a right turn on red, such as a busy right turn where you need the capacity provided by RTOR.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 18, 2016, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited

In situations where a right turn on red is permitted after a stop, isn't that already implied?

The only difference would be some vehicles are prohibited from turning right on red at all times, and some motorists refuse to turn right on red.  A flashing yellow permits those vehicles to turn. 

A yield sign would probably work just as well.  The only real reason this light is here is probably for the pedestrian crossing.

That's right.  For the Utah signal referenced above, the red light means do not proceed at all - to allow pedestrians to cross safely when they have a walk signal.  The green arrow would give the right turners absolute right of way.  And the flashing yellow would indicate yield, there would be other traffic coming your way and you may proceed to join them, so long as you yield.

I've also seen a flashsing yellow right arrow used to indicate yield to pedestrians at a particularly bad corner (as far as sightlines are concerned) in Los Angeles (Venice/Robertson).

The problem is that all of these new meanings add new meaning to what the FYA is supposed to mean.  It's no longer limited to left turn permitted after yielding to ONCOMING traffic.  It can also mean a general yield.  And this is of course different from FY ball which indicates caution (but maintaining right of way as opposed to yielding).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on March 18, 2016, 07:23:06 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 18, 2016, 02:42:22 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 14, 2016, 03:29:17 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 03:08:31 PM
Quote from: spooky on March 14, 2016, 10:40:21 AM
From the MUTCD, accompanying a graphic of a R/Y/FY signal head configuration:

These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a red indication and the red indication in the right-turn signal face is not visibility limited

In situations where a right turn on red is permitted after a stop, isn't that already implied?

The only difference would be some vehicles are prohibited from turning right on red at all times, and some motorists refuse to turn right on red.  A flashing yellow permits those vehicles to turn. 

A yield sign would probably work just as well.  The only real reason this light is here is probably for the pedestrian crossing.

That's right.  For the Utah signal referenced above, the red light means do not proceed at all - to allow pedestrians to cross safely when they have a walk signal.  The green arrow would give the right turners absolute right of way.  And the flashing yellow would indicate yield, there would be other traffic coming your way and you may proceed to join them, so long as you yield.

I've also seen a flashsing yellow right arrow used to indicate yield to pedestrians at a particularly bad corner (as far as sightlines are concerned) in Los Angeles (Venice/Robertson).

The problem is that all of these new meanings add new meaning to what the FYA is supposed to mean.  It's no longer limited to left turn permitted after yielding to ONCOMING traffic.  It can also mean a general yield.  And this is of course different from FY ball which indicates caution (but maintaining right of way as opposed to yielding).
But the left FYA already means more then yield to oncoming traffic. The definition is completely consistent with a standard FY ball, just limited to the direction the arrow is pointing. Left turning traffic with a FYA still needs to yield to pedestrians who may have a walk signal. With a FYA, treat it as if there was a FY ball if you are turning in the direction of the arrow, and all the rules and rights of way orders associated with that will still work perfectly. The left turn yield signs and messages are just a reminder of what the normal rule is, just like the left turn yield on green ball signs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on March 19, 2016, 01:06:53 AM
I don't think this is anything new, but here's a flashing yellow arrow signal in Carson City, Nevada.  A photo I nabbed on my travels, April 2015
(If you look closely you can see the US50-395 sign in the background)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1713/25870182946_b6cf7c48d5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Fq4s61)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 20, 2016, 03:53:00 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 19, 2016, 01:06:53 AM
I don't think this is anything new, but here's a flashing yellow arrow signal in Carson City, Nevada.  A photo I nabbed on my travels, April 2015
(If you look closely you can see the US50-395 sign in the background)

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1713/25870182946_b6cf7c48d5_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Fq4s61)

Nope, nothing new. FYAs are spreading all over Nevada, and is now a statewide standard (as opposed to doghouses) for PPLT. In fact, there is/was some grant money (from NDOT?) that was earmarked towards replacing doghouses with FYAs statewide.

Reno was where the FYA concept was first tried out several years ago, but then all their FYAs were removed (after some traffic engineering personnel changes, as I understand it). When the FYA was adopted in the MUTCD (or maybe they had an interim approval...I don't recall), Carson City was the first municipality in Nevada to start implementing them again.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MisterSG1 on March 27, 2016, 11:03:49 AM
Since this is a long thread and I haven't the time to read through all the posts. I was in Michigan yesterday and seen one, and I thought to myself, what's the actual purpose of these?

With my experience with Michigan in the past, I recall that left turn arrows (what we call advance greens in Ontario) in that state generally happen at the end of a light sequence, unlike here where it is at the beginning (in MOST cases).

But to me a flashing yellow arrow is simply stating the obvious, only make the left turn if it is safe to do so, it's something we are all familiar with when we write our written tests, to me, the idea of a flashing yellow seems to be dumbing down the population, but that's just my opinion.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on March 27, 2016, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on March 27, 2016, 11:03:49 AMWith my experience with Michigan in the past, I recall that left turn arrows (what we call advance greens in Ontario) in that state generally happen at the end of a light sequence, unlike here where it is at the beginning (in MOST cases).
With the old flashing red ball in MI, the protected (green arrow) left turn came at the end of the cycle.

With flashing yellow arrow, the protected turn can either be preceding or following the green for thru traffic.  It depends on the location, and sometimes on the particular signal and sequencing.  For example in Oakland County the protected turn is usually preceding.  In neighboring Macomb County, it's usually following.

In my opinion it makes more sense for it to be following, as then a left turner can be assured of getting through the intersection.  But what do I know?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MisterSG1 on March 27, 2016, 03:59:20 PM
Quote from: GaryV on March 27, 2016, 01:46:31 PM
Quote from: MisterSG1 on March 27, 2016, 11:03:49 AMWith my experience with Michigan in the past, I recall that left turn arrows (what we call advance greens in Ontario) in that state generally happen at the end of a light sequence, unlike here where it is at the beginning (in MOST cases).
With the old flashing red ball in MI, the protected (green arrow) left turn came at the end of the cycle.

With flashing yellow arrow, the protected turn can either be preceding or following the green for thru traffic.  It depends on the location, and sometimes on the particular signal and sequencing.  For example in Oakland County the protected turn is usually preceding.  In neighboring Macomb County, it's usually following.

In my opinion it makes more sense for it to be following, as then a left turner can be assured of getting through the intersection.  But what do I know?

I address this question to GaryV or any other Michigander, or even anyone who knows.

Did every left turn arrow situation in the past have the flashing red ball? On that same topic, are there cases in Michigan where the left turning traffic gets a green arrow, and the main light going that particular direction has a green? Basically, if you don't know what I mean, suppose the light sequence is running for NB-SB, NB's light turns to red, while SB's light stays on green and the green arrow comes on, does this ever happen in Michigan? With the way you answered the question, it seemed that arrows were only given in protected situations, where turning traffic had the intersection to themselves.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on March 27, 2016, 04:55:02 PM
I hope I understand the question.

Not every intersection had permissive left turns - and some would have them only at off-peak hours.  In that case the left turn light worked like a normal cycle - Green Arrow, Yellow Ball, Red Ball.  There was no flashing red ball.  You couldn't turn when the thru signal was green, you had to wait for your green arrow.

Some places would turn the green arrow on while the green ball was still on for thru traffic.  In the same direction of course, not the opposite! 

Some intersections are equipped with sensors to determine whether there are any cars waiting to turn left.  If no one is waiting, you don't need to use that part of the cycle.  That happened both before and after changing from FRB to FYA, but it's more common with the latter as the technologies are installed together.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on March 27, 2016, 10:32:43 PM
In the case of New York and Massachusetts, FYAs provide an opportunity that did not formerly exist, as neither state had a PPLT system that could work as protected-only. In New York, a lot of the ones I've seen in Regions 2 and 4 replaced protected-only setups, with R4 starting to use them in place of doghouses and in permissive-only locations as well. R4 is the only place in the state I know of outside of NYC that uses the three-section permissive-only version (left turn on NY 33 near I-490, right turn on US 20/NY 5 in Geneva). Region 1, on the other hand, swapped FYAs in where doghouses were in most, if not all, locations that currently use FYAs. I don't know about the three on NY 5S in R2 (all former protected-only that now operate protected-permissive), but some of the ones in R4 do change the operating pattern based on the time of day. Massachusetts, as has been stated earlier, is changing all state-maintained doghouses to FYAs because of the flexibility and safety improvements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: traffic light guy on March 29, 2016, 07:07:37 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 22, 2010, 02:45:02 PM
Yeah... PA doesn't seem to be a state to jump on the latest "bandwagon"s (so to speak)

True, there are still a handful of doghouses left in the Philadelphia area, while other states switched to Bi-modules and yellow traps. Hec, they dont even bother to add a red arrow on their turn signals placed outside of major cities.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: David Jr. on April 02, 2016, 03:32:23 PM
Mount Vernon, MO now has a flashing yellow arrow at the intersection of BL I-44 (Mt. Vernon Blvd.) and MO 39 (Spring Park Blvd.).  it also serves the parking lot to a new Walmart at that intersection.  The FYA signal from Walmart to turn left onto BL I-44 has no green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 05, 2016, 10:09:43 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on March 14, 2016, 09:42:04 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 13, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on March 13, 2016, 01:47:35 PM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on March 13, 2016, 01:46:03 PM
I have finally seen a flashing yellow arrow in the District of Columbia. 

I believe it is the only one in the city.

It is on H Street, N.E. eastbound at the intersection with Maryland Avenue and Benning Road.

There's one on Connecticut Avenue NW at DuPont Circle.

While both signals do mean yield, they do come in different contexts.  FYA is to denote the permitted left turn, yield to oncoming traffic.  Dupont Cirlce has FYA to the right and they are terrrible.  There is no protected phase at all for some of the turners.  You have a no turn on red that means you can't turn even at times when traffic is clear and get a FYA when traffic is still going through the circle.  Extremely dangerous. 

What they should do is allow for a right turn green signal when traffic on the circle has a red.  Those turning right should be reminded to yield to pedestrians, but they need their own phase to go through the circle.

I was wondering when I would hear of people trying to use the flashing yellow concept for right turns.  It doesn't really make sense to have a flashing yellow right arrow when the green ball is lit, since someone turning right would have the right of way anyway, unless maybe there's a crosswalk to the right?  I couldn't see use for a red ball with a flashing right yellow arrow, either--if a right turn is permitted on green, it's usually because traffic from the right is turning left, forming two concentric turning movements...so you would just instate a green right arrow in that case.

Does anyone have an idea for a viable application of a flashing yellow RIGHT arrow?  I can't think of any (except maybe as a warning to watch for peds in a crosswalk before you turn right).

I just now witnessed a good case for a FYA right turn signal.  As mentioned above, in a situation where there is a left green arrow being lit, the corresponding right turn would have a green right arrow, since the left turn and right turn form two concentric turning movements and do not conflict with each other.  In some states, like California, no u-turn is permitted whenever the corresponding right turn has a green arrow so that there is no conflict between the movements.

However, Maryland generally allows U-turns even in such a situation.  I just witnessed a near collision where one driver is rushing to make a right turn with the arrow while someone else is making the U-turn and both drivers see a green arrow favoring their movement.  This intersection also has a no turn on red sign for the right turners.  Now, in some states they make clear that U-turners are to yield to right turners, but I believe that generally the right turners should yield to the u-turners, otherwise u-turners may block the people trying to make a left turn.  Even if there is concern for drivers generally making a right turn on red here, I beleive that people should be allowed to turn right while the corresponding left turn has a green, but they should yield to any u-turners and not assume that they have absolute right of way (which is what a  green arrow would indicate).

So, to make this clear, instead of a green arrow lit when left turners and u-turners have a green arrow, give these right turners a flashing yellow arrow. 

The phases of the signal: (cross-street left turn has a leading phase)

Green ball;                                           cross-street red                              (right turn OK, yielding to pedestrians)
Yellow ball;                                           cross-street red
Red ball;                                              cross-street red (1 second all red)

Red ball & flashing yellow right arrow;    cross-street green left arrow;            (right turn OK, yielding to anyone making a U-turn)
Red ball & steady yellow arrow;              cross-street yellow left arrow;

Red ball;                                             cross-street green                      (right turn on red [if allowed] yielding to traffic and pedestrians on the cross-street)
Red ball;                                             cross-street yellow
Red ball;                                              cross-street red (1 second all red)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Katavia on April 08, 2016, 12:09:07 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM
I'm down in NC at the moment and have been through a few intersections with these lights. It looks like it provides a similar traffic control pattern that "doghouse" style signals do, but for dedicated protected left turn lanes. I haven't seen any in NJ yet even thought they are apparently installed there somewhere, I guess I should look for the accident debris. Anyone else see these signals pop up in their neighborhood?
If you went to Concord, you might have seen a flashing yellow RIGHT turn light. (US 29-601 at Cabarrus Avenue)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on April 08, 2016, 12:16:05 PM
Oh man.  I had no idea how widespread FYA's were in Peoria, IL!  There are far too many examples to count or list here!  All along US150, I-74, IL-40...

Peoria, IL is like the mecca for flashing yellow arrows.  I hope they're covered in their driver's ed training XD they weren't included in mine...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 20, 2016, 10:55:57 PM
Federal Way, Washington has begun to install flashing yellow arrows at all T-junctions. I made a video to demonstrate their phasing:

https://youtu.be/Yk4m574Bi-o

At least two intersections in the city have this setup.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: David Jr. on April 27, 2016, 09:38:05 PM
In an earlier post on this thread, I mentioned the flashing yellow arrow in Mount Vernon, MO at BL I-44 and MO 39 and that the approach from the Walmart there had no green arrow.  There is now a green arrow on that signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 74/171FAN on April 28, 2016, 09:25:23 PM
It looks like PA will start having them (first one being put on Rossmoyne Rd at the US 15 interchange (http://www.wgal.com/news/new-kind-of-traffic-signal-coming-to-susquehanna-valley/39264014) south of Camp Hill)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on April 30, 2016, 08:45:41 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 28, 2016, 09:25:23 PM
It looks like PA will start having them (first one being put on Rossmoyne Rd at the US 15 interchange (http://www.wgal.com/news/new-kind-of-traffic-signal-coming-to-susquehanna-valley/39264014) south of Camp Hill)

Just made the morning TV news in Philly.  Plenty of doghouses here that could be replaced. 

It's also on the PennDOT homepage now.  Their fact sheet mentions "widespread replacement" after this first one has had some time.

http://www.penndot.gov/TravelInPA/TrafficSignalsManagement/Pages/default.aspx#.VySo7WbUT3U

Wonder if they will ultimately allow the yellow arrow to flash on protected left turn signals when the intersection is in flash mode.  Right now, the signals are dark (allowing the flashing yellow ball to control turns).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on April 30, 2016, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on April 30, 2016, 08:45:41 AM
Quote from: 74/171FAN on April 28, 2016, 09:25:23 PM
It looks like PA will start having them (first one being put on Rossmoyne Rd at the US 15 interchange (http://www.wgal.com/news/new-kind-of-traffic-signal-coming-to-susquehanna-valley/39264014) south of Camp Hill)

Just made the morning TV news in Philly.  Plenty of doghouses here that could be replaced. 

It's also on the PennDOT homepage now.  Their fact sheet mentions "widespread replacement" after this first one has had some time.

http://www.penndot.gov/TravelInPA/TrafficSignalsManagement/Pages/default.aspx#.VySo7WbUT3U

Wonder if they will ultimately allow the yellow arrow to flash on protected left turn signals when the intersection is in flash mode.  Right now, the signals are dark (allowing the flashing yellow ball to control turns).
Around here if they go into flash they flash the red arrow, even while the mainline has a flashing yellow ball. I thought that was a bit weird.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bitmapped on April 30, 2016, 10:29:06 PM
I'll be curious to see if PennDOT replaces any of their protected-only installations with the FYLA or if it will just be doghouse signals that get changed over. PennDOT uses protected-only signals way more than any other state I've seen.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 30, 2016, 10:41:17 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on April 30, 2016, 10:29:06 PM
I'll be curious to see if PennDOT replaces any of their protected-only installations with the FYLA or if it will just be doghouse signals that get changed over. PennDOT uses protected-only signals way more than any other state I've seen.

They're in competition with New York for that one. Protected-only signals are much too common in state installs here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I remember back in the 90s when it seemed like there was only one protected-only signal in the entirety of Region 4.  The upgrades to NY 332 and NY 252 sure changed that (ironically, the one protected-only signal I knew of is now gone; NY 590 at Titus).  Region 1 has them EVERYWHERE.

I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on May 01, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I remember back in the 90s when it seemed like there was only one protected-only signal in the entirety of Region 4.  The upgrades to NY 332 and NY 252 sure changed that (ironically, the one protected-only signal I knew of is now gone; NY 590 at Titus).  Region 1 has them EVERYWHERE.

I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

California also drives me nuts with the excessive prevalence of protected-only signals.  They could benefit from converting many of their signals to FYA's.  I remember getting particularly frustrated in the Bay Area.

And I prefer 5-section heads but that's because I'm from doghouse-free Illinois  :biggrin:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 01, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

What exactly are you getting at? The FYA's "per lane" approach allows for much greater flexibility: TOD phasing, skipped phases when not needed, lead/lag phasing (if your state doesn't allow such operation with doghouses, such as Washington), etc. Doghouses are sort of half-baked in comparison.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on May 01, 2016, 07:49:58 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 01, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I remember back in the 90s when it seemed like there was only one protected-only signal in the entirety of Region 4.  The upgrades to NY 332 and NY 252 sure changed that (ironically, the one protected-only signal I knew of is now gone; NY 590 at Titus).  Region 1 has them EVERYWHERE.

I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

California also drives me nuts with the excessive prevalence of protected-only signals.  They could benefit from converting many of their signals to FYA's.  I remember getting particularly frustrated in the Bay Area.

And I prefer 5-section heads but that's because I'm from doghouse-free Illinois  :biggrin:
NY 104 is full of them too especially the W. Ridge Rd. section in Greece when that got upgraded. Mt. Read Blvd has had protected only left turns for decades.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 01, 2016, 08:23:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

What exactly are you getting at? The FYA's "per lane" approach allows for much greater flexibility: TOD phasing, skipped phases when not needed, lead/lag phasing (if your state doesn't allow such operation with doghouses, such as Washington), etc. Doghouses are sort of half-baked in comparison.

I second this; you can at least have the FYA up some of the time at a signal that would otherwise have to run protected-only 24/7.  Plus with a FYA head you can have permissive lefts while the adjacent through movement is red - something that cannot be done with a doghouse or tower.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on May 01, 2016, 09:20:36 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on April 08, 2016, 12:16:05 PM
Oh man.  I had no idea how widespread FYA's were in Peoria, IL!  There are far too many examples to count or list here!  All along US150, I-74, IL-40...

Peoria, IL is like the mecca for flashing yellow arrows.  I hope they're covered in their driver's ed training XD they weren't included in mine...

They're like a rash all over IDOT District 4 (Peoria).  Even areas within the district, but away from Peoria have them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 02, 2016, 05:24:45 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 01, 2016, 08:23:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 01, 2016, 06:32:22 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

What exactly are you getting at? The FYA's "per lane" approach allows for much greater flexibility: TOD phasing, skipped phases when not needed, lead/lag phasing (if your state doesn't allow such operation with doghouses, such as Washington), etc. Doghouses are sort of half-baked in comparison.

I second this; you can at least have the FYA up some of the time at a signal that would otherwise have to run protected-only 24/7.  Plus with a FYA head you can have permissive lefts while the adjacent through movement is red - something that cannot be done with a doghouse or tower.
Honestly, I'd rather not see protected-only anywhere.  If you're stuck at one and there's a gap in oncoming traffic, I'm sure you know the frustration with having to wait five minutes for the green arrow to go on when you could have went right then.

The idea of having a permissive left when the straight is red is foreign to me.  In this state, a VERY LARGE percent signals are fully actuated "leading (once in a blue moon lagging) left turn (sometimes both directions) if applicable, straight, repeat for cross street".

Quote from: steviep24 on May 01, 2016, 07:49:58 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 01, 2016, 04:10:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 01, 2016, 03:40:44 PM
I remember back in the 90s when it seemed like there was only one protected-only signal in the entirety of Region 4.  The upgrades to NY 332 and NY 252 sure changed that (ironically, the one protected-only signal I knew of is now gone; NY 590 at Titus).  Region 1 has them EVERYWHERE.

I LOATH protected-only signals.  I much prefer doghouses over FYAs because FYAs have the capability of having a red arrow when the straight in green.

California also drives me nuts with the excessive prevalence of protected-only signals.  They could benefit from converting many of their signals to FYA's.  I remember getting particularly frustrated in the Bay Area.

And I prefer 5-section heads but that's because I'm from doghouse-free Illinois  :biggrin:
NY 104 is full of them too especially the W. Ridge Rd. section in Greece when that got upgraded. Mt. Read Blvd has had protected only left turns for decades.
In all honesty, growing up on the east side of the Genesee, I don't use NY 104 often enough to remember that it has them now and, aside from one clinching trip, have never had cause to use Mt Read Blvd EVER.  I remember frustration at having to sit at the Titus signal whenever I went to the orthodontist and nearly ran a red right after I moved to Albany because I wasn't used to looking for left turn signals on roads without medians.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on May 02, 2016, 09:04:54 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.

Ask Delaware about that one.  There are several intersections on US 202 with doghouse signals that require crossing 3 lanes of cross traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 02, 2016, 09:16:51 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.

3+ opposing lanes has been way overused as a criteria against permissive phasing. There are several cities near me with wide FYA deployment, with many examples against three lanes (I think one is even against four) -- one of the cities uses FYAs at all single lane left turns (Federal Way, WA). That city uses TOD phasing to prevent "close calls" during heavy traffic (such that cars are more likely to take chances during heavier hours).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 02, 2016, 10:26:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 02, 2016, 05:24:45 PM
The idea of having a permissive left when the straight is red is foreign to me.  In this state, a VERY LARGE percent signals are fully actuated "leading (once in a blue moon lagging) left turn (sometimes both directions) if applicable, straight, repeat for cross street".

The permissive left with a red for an adjacent straight is/would be very useful for those regions that use leading lefts and only have detection near the stop bar of the left turn lane.  It is irritating to frequently just miss bringing up the green arrow by a couple of seconds and have to wait for the adjacent green ball to come up - or even worse, to wait another long cycle for the green arrow.  It would be very useful at intersections where the left turn volumes are greater than the adjoining through movements - usually for a minor side street at a major street.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 10:47:13 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 02, 2016, 10:26:12 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 02, 2016, 05:24:45 PM
The idea of having a permissive left when the straight is red is foreign to me.  In this state, a VERY LARGE percent signals are fully actuated "leading (once in a blue moon lagging) left turn (sometimes both directions) if applicable, straight, repeat for cross street".

The permissive left with a red for an adjacent straight is/would be very useful for those regions that use leading lefts and only have detection near the stop bar of the left turn lane.  It is irritating to frequently just miss bringing up the green arrow by a couple of seconds and have to wait for the adjacent green ball to come up - or even worse, to wait another long cycle for the green arrow.  It would be very useful at intersections where the left turn volumes are greater than the adjoining through movements - usually for a minor side street at a major street.

*cough* New York and the small metal detector sensors motorcycles can't even drive over *cough*. Almost every FYA I've seen in New York is in a great location, with many of these formerly being protected-only. One FYA will be going in at everyone's favorite intersection in Waterford where NY 32 currently has a protected-only left that backs up quite often.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 12:53:44 PM
I have no issue with FYAs replacing protected-only... only replacing doghouses.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 12:53:44 PM
I have no issue with FYAs replacing protected-only... only replacing doghouses.

Because you feel it's a waste of money, or you prefer doghouses?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ian on May 03, 2016, 01:30:22 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 01:11:13 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 12:53:44 PM
I have no issue with FYAs replacing protected-only... only replacing doghouses.

Because you feel it's a waste of money, or you prefer doghouses?

For me, it's because I prefer doghouses  :D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:31:50 PM
Ditto.  I find red arrows on a green ball to be extremely annoying.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ekt8750 on May 03, 2016, 01:41:23 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 02, 2016, 09:04:54 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.

Ask Delaware about that one.  There are several intersections on US 202 with doghouse signals that require crossing 3 lanes of cross traffic.

Are you referring to the Concord Pike portion? I dunno when the last time you were on the road but most if not all of their turn signals are of the protected variety these days. In fact at the big circle-that's-not-a-circle in Talleyville you'll find protected arrow signals pointing in all sorts of directions and they confuse the hell out of novices.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 03, 2016, 02:33:39 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 03, 2016, 01:31:50 PM
Ditto.  I find red arrows on a green ball to be extremely annoying.

Like when an FYA display goes protected-only? Said scenario is incredibly uncommon. Of the hundred or so FYAs in Federal Way, WA (sorry I keep bringing this city up, but I know a lot about it), only maybe three or four have any sort of TOD setting.

My preference for FYAs is rooted in my ability to turn left when the through traffic cannot. In theory, there's more "green time" with FYAs. Here's a video of me turning left at a lagging FYA. Although I was not able to turn until well after the through traffic received its green, at least I was able to pull forward and prepare, which you can't do with a doghouse (at least when it's red).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_idz1QzWQtg
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on May 03, 2016, 05:27:32 PM
In Washington County, Oregon, the FYA on NB NW 185th Ave onto WB Baseline Rd never seems to come on during the day. I've seen the FYA on maybe once, and I go to that intersection at least twice a week. The intersection is near the MAX Light Rail tracks and the signal is pre-empted, but I've seen other pre-empted signals in the area with a FYA for left-turning traffic facing the rail crossing but turning onto the cross-street (parallel to the tracks) while through traffic facing the crossing gets a red light. The protected left phase is programmed to lag for both the NB and SB directions.

One time, in the range of about 5 minutes, three separate trains tripped the signal and I had to sit through three full traffic light cycles never getting a green or flashing yellow arrow. The guy in front of me decided that was too long to wait and turned against the red light. I don't blame him. Luckily a fourth train didn't come by and we got a green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on May 03, 2016, 08:51:05 PM
Quote from: ekt8750 on May 03, 2016, 01:41:23 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 02, 2016, 09:04:54 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 02, 2016, 05:37:23 PM
Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.

Ask Delaware about that one.  There are several intersections on US 202 with doghouse signals that require crossing 3 lanes of cross traffic.

Are you referring to the Concord Pike portion? I dunno when the last time you were on the road but most if not all of their turn signals are of the protected variety these days. In fact at the big circle-that's-not-a-circle in Talleyville you'll find protected arrow signals pointing in all sorts of directions and they confuse the hell out of novices.

Yes, but the section between Powder Mill Rd (Old DE 141) and Mt. Lebanon Rd Talleyville is still all doghouses.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on May 04, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 04, 2016, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 04, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on May 04, 2016, 11:02:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2016, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 04, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.
It DOES look really nice.  I'm also a fan of any state in the Eastern time zone moving toward steel mast arm construction :D  Is this the first FYA in the whole state?  Is this part of a US15 freeway upgrade?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 05, 2016, 02:25:44 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 04, 2016, 11:02:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 04, 2016, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on May 04, 2016, 10:31:23 PM
New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.
It DOES look really nice.  I'm also a fan of any state in the Eastern time zone moving toward steel mast arm construction :D  Is this the first FYA in the whole state?  Is this part of a US15 freeway upgrade?

PennDOT has been using masts sporadically for a while. Those masts are at least 10 years old. The median-mounted signal is not standard, unless they've changed things very recently. Likely installed that way so they didn't have to replace the mast. Typical PennDOT cheapness. Yes, it is the first FYA in Pennsylvania. Has nothing to do with any freeway upgrade.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: busman_49 on May 05, 2016, 07:47:03 AM
West Chester, Ohio, installed one a little while ago and it appears there's one getting ready to roll at OH 741 & Bethany Rd. outside Mason.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on May 07, 2016, 07:45:31 PM
Carthage, Missouri has a lot of "non green" FYA's:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JJBers on May 07, 2016, 07:52:03 PM
If no one as mentioned it, I believe there are a few in Connecticut
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on May 16, 2016, 12:16:14 PM
Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736
QuoteWe are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 16, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
This has been discussed before, but here is a good video of a FYA that doesn't have an all red interval.  This type of operation presumably increases the throughput of the intersection but in theory may also increase the accident rate.  However, I don't believe the potential increase in accidents has been well proven.  I wouldn't mind seeing more FYA's operate like this....
   


As a side note, i don't see what the car did wrong in this video.  The driver was past the stop bar when the signal changed to a solid yellow arrow and were well within their rights to proceed through the intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 16, 2016, 05:07:30 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 16, 2016, 04:29:18 PM
As a side note, i don't see what the car did wrong in this video.  The driver was past the stop bar when the signal changed to a solid yellow arrow and were well within their rights to proceed through the intersection.

That sort of narration and lack of understanding drives me crazy. But he's not alone. A lot of Seattleites (incorrectly) believe that yellow means stop. Fortunately, the rest are like me and keep going until the oncoming cars set off.

Anyways, most of the FYAs in Seattle are phased like this (the video is from Seattle). I'll make another less annoying video of another example and post it here. I too prefer this phasing. I have yet to notice any uptick in collisions since they're phased just like doghouses would be.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 16, 2016, 07:23:19 PM
Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on May 16, 2016, 08:35:16 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on May 16, 2016, 12:16:14 PM
Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736
QuoteWe are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.



At least they have a timeframe, unlike the 2 years it took to add any more 70 MPH zones beyond those selected for the initial test.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on May 17, 2016, 01:04:34 AM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on May 16, 2016, 12:16:14 PM
Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736
QuoteWe are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.

Will the arrows be in Clearview as part of the 'test'??  <Ducking>
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 17, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 16, 2016, 07:23:19 PM
Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

I didn't know FYAs with no interim red interval was commonplace around Seattle.   From my experience the minimum green at FYA's can be extremely short (as low as 4 seconds).  A typical red interval is roughly 3 seconds long.  By eliminated the interim red interval you could nearly double the minimim green time without adversely effecting other movements.  So here are your two options for running a short FYA left turn:

With red interval:  4 sec green, 3 sec yellow, 3 sec red = 10 sec
Without red interval:  7 sec green, 3 sec yellow, no red = 10 sec

Drivers are only being displayed a green during 40% of the left-turn phase when a red interval is included (4 seconds green, 6 seconds clearance interval).  That's extremely inefficient.  Without a red interval you increase that percentage to 70% (7 seconds green, 3 seconds clearance interval).  You are going to push a lot more traffic through the intersection if you eliminate the interim red interval.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 09:55:42 AM
Can anyone cite the benefit of having a red interval at the FYA?  If your argument for a red interval is safety based, is there any literature to back it up?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2016, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 16, 2016, 07:23:19 PM
Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM

The majority of NJ lights don't have a interim red phase after a yellow arrow when they then have the permissive ability to turn left, and we don't have a flashing yellow here either.  I can cite a number of intersections where there isn't an interim red phase after a left turn light goes to a red arrow as well.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 10:53:01 AM
A little unrelated to the FYA discussion, but here is a signal that skips the yellow interval.  Without the yellow drivers have no indication when the permissive phase is ending (it goes straight from a flashing red ball to a solid red ball).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on May 18, 2016, 01:29:14 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 10:53:01 AM
A little unrelated to the FYA discussion, but here is a signal that skips the yellow interval.  Without the yellow drivers have no indication when the permissive phase is ending (it goes straight from a flashing red ball to a solid red ball).

This was a fairly common practice in both leading and lagging setups where the left-turn phase was skipped. Although in much of the setups I've witnessed during my childhood, it would be common for the flashing red to stop when the adjacent through phase turned yellow regardless if the opposing through movement were still green for an opposing left-turn movement, although in more fully actuated setups the flashing red might continue until the opposing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 18, 2016, 02:47:38 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 18, 2016, 10:13:36 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 16, 2016, 07:23:19 PM
Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

The majority of NJ lights don't have a interim red phase after a yellow arrow when they then have the permissive ability to turn left, and we don't have a flashing yellow here either.  I can cite a number of intersections where there isn't an interim red phase after a left turn light goes to a red arrow as well.

Of course they don't feature an interim red phase. 4/5-section signals cannot feature an interim red phase, because the circular indications apply to the through lanes (the only interim red phase with a 4/5-section signal is when the through lanes are still red, and the protected left turn ends).

The only reason we're having this discussion, is because FYA's normally feature a red arrow after the protected phase (when the left turn is leading), followed by a flashing yellow arrow. This phasing style is preferred because it created a visible jump between "protected phase ending" and "permissive phase beginning". The problem (beyond a slight decrease in green time) is that, at intersections with red light cameras, this creates a sort of dilemma where traffic is required to, after the protected phase, stop behind the line, wait for the flashing yellow arrow, and then move forward, even if the through lanes have a green signal. A comparable 4/5-section signal would allow traffic to stop in the intersection, so long as the through lanes had a green light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 18, 2016, 04:07:01 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 17, 2016, 12:07:21 PM
From my experience the minimum green at FYA's can be extremely short (as low as 4 seconds).  A typical red interval is roughly 3 seconds long.  By eliminated the interim red interval you could nearly double the minimim green time without adversely effecting other movements.  So here are your two options for running a short FYA left turn:

With red interval:  4 sec green, 3 sec yellow, 3 sec red = 10 sec
Without red interval:  7 sec green, 3 sec yellow, no red = 10 sec

Drivers are only being displayed a green during 40% of the left-turn phase when a red interval is included (4 seconds green, 6 seconds clearance interval).  That's extremely inefficient.  Without a red interval you increase that percentage to 70% (7 seconds green, 3 seconds clearance interval).  You are going to push a lot more traffic through the intersection if you eliminate the interim red interval.

Are the interim red intervals really 3 seconds in this scenario? Any FYA installation I've seen in Reno area where a protected left leads into a permissive phase, that interim red time is a second or less.

As to your other question: I don't know that there is any real benefit to having a short red display before the FYA turns on. Definitely haven't seen any studies or anything one way or the other. I can only speculate that some practitioners feel it is appropriate to have there as part of driver expectation (i.e. green-yellow-red is the norm).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 18, 2016, 11:08:14 PM
Quote from: roadfro on May 18, 2016, 04:07:01 PM
Are the interim red intervals really 3 seconds in this scenario? Any FYA installation I've seen in Reno area where a protected left leads into a permissive phase, that interim red time is a second or less.

MDOT uses the following formula to calculate the all red interval (the same formula found in NCHRP Report 731):

R = (W + L) / v

Where:
R = red interval (s),
V = design speed (ft/s),
W = width of stop line to far-side no-conflict point (ft), and
L = length of vehicle, typically 20 f

The all red time use to be capped at 2.5 seconds but from my understanding that cap no longer exists (and depending on the width of the intersection the all red can become quite large).  For an example, a 110 ft wide intersection with a 30 mph design speed would have an all red of 3 seconds (110+20)/44 fps.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 21, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
Puyallup, Washington has been installing some new flashing yellow arrows. They mostly replace 5-section heads, but some are new outright.

The biggest catch with these new signals is how pedestrians play into the phasing. Check out this snippet from the formal document according the city $530k in federal grants (http://goo.gl/eRJat5):

Quote from: same quote repeated throughout document
...replace traffic signal controllers, conflict monitors, and cabinets; modify peak hour signal timings to disable the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed; and do incidental work required to accomplish this.

I've brought up disabling the flashing yellow arrow during pedestrian phasing prior to now. While the idea has been dabbled with by cities outside of Seattle, namely Bellevue and Redmond, Puyallup appears to be the first major city, at least in Washington, to outright ban permissive phasing during times when the pedestrian crossing phase is activated, at all intersections. I actually wasted a bunch of time today, going around and checking out the current FYA's around Puyallup. Sure enough, the red arrow pops up when the crosswalk is activated. I'm not really sure what they mean when they say "peak hour", because all of the crossings I tested disabled the phase in the middle of the afternoon. I'll need to go back and check later, at different times of the day, to see whether or not the time of day plays into whether or not the red arrow or flashing yellow arrow is called.

I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ARMOURERERIC on May 21, 2016, 08:52:11 PM
Getting FY all over Morganton NC, but all the new state installations also are coming with a curved mast arm painted black and decorative pedesterian posts.  Really looks professional.  You can see them at the Enola Road and NC 18 exits of 40.  One thing I am seeing on NB Enola Road is FYL as part of a 3 lens setup, there is a dedicated left turn lane, but there is never a dedicated left phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.

Drivers shouldn't be conditioned to believe pedestrians will be clear of the crosswalk when a permissive phase is displayed.  The fact is the compliance rate of pedestrians is abysmal and many will cross during the solid don't walk.  If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.  Or just leave it as it is and allow permissive phasing with the walk.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wxfree on May 22, 2016, 02:54:02 PM
They're now in my area.  With the old signals, the usual progression was green arrow/green circle, yellow arrow/green circle, green circle.  A left turn could be made throughout that time if there was no traffic in the other direction.  Now it goes green arrow, yellow arrow, red arrow, flashing yellow arrow.  Now the opportunity to turn is broken for about a second.  It's not a big deal, and you can time your approach to get there after the flashing begins, but it's a little less efficient.  In concept, though, I like the flashing arrow better than the green circle for the "yield" instruction.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 03:16:19 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.

Drivers shouldn't be conditioned to believe pedestrians will be clear of the crosswalk when a permissive phase is displayed.  The fact is the compliance rate of pedestrians is abysmal and many will cross during the solid don't walk.  If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.  Or just leave it as it is and allow permissive phasing with the walk.
I think the idea of eliminating permissive phases just because many drivers are too stupid to look for pedestrians is HORRIBLE.  Don't punish me because many people don't bother to look for anything but cars!

As for fostering the belief that pedestrians won't be around in permissive phases... you're trying to close the barn door after the horses are already long gone.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 22, 2016, 03:45:56 PM
Quote from: wxfree on May 22, 2016, 02:54:02 PM
Now it goes green arrow, yellow arrow, red arrow, flashing yellow arrow.  Now the opportunity to turn is broken for about a second.  It's not a big deal, and you can time your approach to get there after the flashing begins, but it's a little less efficient.

Seattle has fixed this issue by dropping the interim red. You can read a little about it on the last page, but here's a video demonstrating how it works:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 22, 2016, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PM
Drivers shouldn't be conditioned to believe pedestrians will be clear of the crosswalk when a permissive phase is displayed.  The fact is the compliance rate of pedestrians is abysmal and many will cross during the solid don't walk.  If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.  Or just leave it as it is and allow permissive phasing with the walk.
Quote from: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 03:16:19 PM
I think the idea of eliminating permissive phases just because many drivers are too stupid to look for pedestrians is HORRIBLE.  Don't punish me because many people don't bother to look for anything but cars!...As for fostering the belief that pedestrians won't be around in permissive phases... you're trying to close the barn door after the horses are already long gone.

So what your both saying is, unless we can get rid of 100% of the problem, we shouldn't do anything? Entirely eliminating the permissive phase is not at all practical, but there are other steps that can be taken to protect at least some of the pedestrians. This includes red arrows when pedestrians are crossing. Short crossings are only around 15-20 seconds, and it lets through traffic proceed while they cross -- not that big of a deal. On top of that, the potential benefit to pedestrians is huge. We obviously can't protect everyone, but we can at least take some measures to be smart about it.

FWIW, I don't think this phasing would have been implemented if it wasn't at least partly effective.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 04:54:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 22, 2016, 03:57:54 PM
So what your both saying is, unless we can get rid of 100% of the problem, we shouldn't do anything? Entirely eliminating the permissive phase is not at all practical, but there are other steps that can be taken to protect at least some of the pedestrians. This includes red arrows when pedestrians are crossing. Short crossings are only around 15-20 seconds, and it lets through traffic proceed while they cross -- not that big of a deal. On top of that, the potential benefit to pedestrians is huge. We obviously can't protect everyone, but we can at least take some measures to be smart about it.

I didn't say don't do anything.  I'm suggesting there are unintended consequences for disabling the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed.  And I'm not convinced it will be effective at reducing pedestrian injuries at FYA installations.  What happens when a pushbutton faults?  The signal will run protected only until someone gets out there to fix it.  I know government agencies are the poster child for efficiency, but still, it would be a big annoyance having the signal run protected only until the pushbutton is fixed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 22, 2016, 06:00:48 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 04:54:20 PM
I didn't say don't do anything.

Allow me to retort:

Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PM
If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.




Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 04:54:20 PM
I'm suggesting there are unintended consequences for disabling the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed.  And I'm not convinced it will be effective at reducing pedestrian injuries at FYA installations.  What happens when a pushbutton faults?  The signal will run protected only until someone gets out there to fix it.  I know government agencies are the poster child for efficiency, but still, it would be a big annoyance having the signal run protected only until the pushbutton is fixed.

Bellevue, WA adopted this system called "SCATS", which stands for "Sydney Coordinated Adaptive Traffic System", which uses a bunch of different things to determine when and when not to enabled the permissive phase (AFAICT, the system originated in Australia, and is used in both Australia and New Zealand). Evidently, there have not been any vehicle/pedestrian conflicts at intersections with "SCATS" phasing.

As I am not a traffic engineering expert, I'll let you read the Powerpoint: https://goo.gl/mWLcBd

As for a pushbutton fault? I think that's the least of Bellevue's concerns.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 22, 2016, 06:17:01 PM
I think Trade is referring to phasing that eliminates the FY when the ped phase is active. If a person pushes the button, the FY phase could be disabled to increase pedestrian safety. I think this is a great idea and it goes along with how some places, notably some locations in NYSDOT Region 1, have blackout NTOR signs that are only lit when a ped phase at a conflicting crosswalk is active to protect pedestrians from idiots turning on red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 22, 2016, 03:57:54 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PM
Drivers shouldn't be conditioned to believe pedestrians will be clear of the crosswalk when a permissive phase is displayed.  The fact is the compliance rate of pedestrians is abysmal and many will cross during the solid don't walk.  If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.  Or just leave it as it is and allow permissive phasing with the walk.
Quote from: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 03:16:19 PM
I think the idea of eliminating permissive phases just because many drivers are too stupid to look for pedestrians is HORRIBLE.  Don't punish me because many people don't bother to look for anything but cars!...As for fostering the belief that pedestrians won't be around in permissive phases... you're trying to close the barn door after the horses are already long gone.

So what your both saying is, unless we can get rid of 100% of the problem, we shouldn't do anything? Entirely eliminating the permissive phase is not at all practical, but there are other steps that can be taken to protect at least some of the pedestrians. This includes red arrows when pedestrians are crossing. Short crossings are only around 15-20 seconds, and it lets through traffic proceed while they cross -- not that big of a deal. On top of that, the potential benefit to pedestrians is huge. We obviously can't protect everyone, but we can at least take some measures to be smart about it.

FWIW, I don't think this phasing would have been implemented if it wasn't at least partly effective.
I think you misread my post.  I was responding to Mr. Parclo B4's assertion that we should eliminate all permissive left turns across the entire highways system because of the problem rather than just have the red arrow when pedestrians are crossing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 11:53:31 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 07:29:09 PM
I think you misread my post.  I was responding to Mr. Parclo B4's assertion that we should eliminate all permissive left turns across the entire highways system because of the problem rather than just have the red arrow when pedestrians are crossing.

If drivers realize that the FYA is suppressed when a pedestrian actuates the pushbutton, then they may be more lax in scanning the intersection for pedestrians when encountering a FYA (since the FYA should be suppressed when a pedestrian is crossing).  The problem is so many pedestrians cross during the solid don't walk and there very well may be a pedestrian in the crosswalk.  IMO, suppressing the FYA is a dangerous precedent that Washington is starting.  The concern of a broken pushbutton hijacking the intersection shouldn't be taken lightly either.  Do you really want an intersection to run protected at 2 in the morning just because of a broken pushbutton?  Broken detection is more common then some may think.   

Ultimately, i want to see the study that indicates suppressing the FYA would be safer (real world numbers, not just simulation studies).  Until then, it's speculation that suppressing the FYA would be any safer.  So Vdeane, do you have a link to that study or are you just full of speculation (among other things)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 23, 2016, 12:50:10 AM
Then program it so it doesn't go full protected at night. We have that technology. The problem is that people treat permissives like protecteds if there is no conflicting car traffic in most parts of the country and people don't look for peds anyway. You wouldn't believe how often I get flipped off for crossing on a walk signal in these parts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 12:42:02 PM
"The problem is that people treat permissives like protecteds if there is no conflicting car traffic in most parts of the country and people don't look for peds anyway."  

It's absolutely true that some drivers don't look for pedestrians inside the crosswalk at a permissive left.  In fact, in one simulation study 4-7% of drivers did not focus for pedestrians inside the crosswalk. 

QuoteAbstract
In some jurisdictions, protected left-turn phasing has been replaced with the flashing yellow arrow (FYA) for protected/permissive left turns (PPLTs) to reduce delay. However, it is important to have a thorough understanding of the conflict between pedestrians and the permissive left-turning vehicle.  This presentation summarizes the results of research conducted with a high-fidelity, motion-based driving simulator and mobile eye-tracking equipment to study the effects of the opposing traffic, the presence and walking direction of pedestrians, and the number of section heads to display the FYA on driver performance. To accomplish this research, a six-intersection simulated environment was created. In total, 27 subjects completed the course, allowing the analysis of 620 permissive left-turn maneuvers.  Eye-glance durations for the intersection approach and turning maneuver were captured for left-turn pavement bay markings, the signal indication, the pedestrian and vehicle waiting area, and the pedestrian signal heads. The total glance durations for each of these areas were analyzed. The following results were obtained: 1) the increased presence of pedestrians led drivers to focus more attention on these crossing pedestrians; 2) as the number of opposing vehicles increased, drivers spent less time fixating on pedestrians; 3) Four to seven percent of drivers did not focus on pedestrians in the crosswalk; and 4) there did not appear to be a difference between any variable and the presence of a three- or four-section head. In terms of practice, the results suggest that it may be desirable to limit the permissive operation when pedestrians are present. Moreover, the findings may indicate that the additional cost of four-section heads is not justified.
http://library.state.or.us/repository/2013/201304261019565/index.pdf

So a case can be made that the FYA should turn to protected only when a pedestrian is present (indicated by a pushbutton actuation).  But there are unintended consequences to this type of operation.  If drivers realize that no pedestrians should legally be in the crosswalk when encountering a FYA, they have less incentive to scan the intersection for pedestrians.  Instead of 4-7% of drivers not looking for pedestrians, the majority of drivers may stop looking for pedestrians at FYAs.  Seeing that so many pedestrians ignore the Solid Don't Walk indication, that is a dangerous situation since a pedestrian may very well be in the crosswalk.  The non-compliance rate of pedestrians is too high to make this type of operation effective IMO. 

Quote from: cl94 on May 23, 2016, 12:50:10 AMThen program it so it doesn't go full protected at night. We have that technology.

But should a pedestrian crossing at night be less protected than a pedestrian crossing during the day?   You could argue that a pedestrian crossing at night is more vulnerable due to the reduced visibility.  Sure, it sucks when a faulty pushbutton causes the signal to run all night but that is the price you pay if you want to run this type of setup (the real solution is DON'T run this type of setup!).  Just causes too many problems and the potential safety benefits are questionable at best.  But good luck to Washington State for trying it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2016, 12:57:53 PM
How does a single study produce a range of 4-7%?  If it was one study, it should be one figure.

And a single simulation isn't a great indication of a study.  Good studies are done over the course of a period of time with many circumstances and groups of people.  It also depends on what other factors were in play.  It also doesn't indicate how many pedestrians, if any, got hit, or if the pedestrian had the right of way (did they enter during a "Don't Walk" phase, for example).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2016, 12:57:53 PM
How does a single study produce a range of 4-7%?  If it was one study, it should be one figure.

I didn't read the entire 80 page study, but it appears they analyzed drivers focusing on pedestrians at a variety of traffic conditions (ie. "as the number of opposing vehicles increased, drivers spent less time fixating on pedestrians;" ).  So 7% of drivers failed to focus for pedestrians during heavy traffic and 4% failed to focus for pedestrians when opposing traffic was light.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2016, 12:57:53 PM
And a single simulation isn't a great indication of a study.  Good studies are done over the course of a period of time with many circumstances and groups of people.  It also depends on what other factors were in play.  It also doesn't indicate how many pedestrians, if any, got hit, or if the pedestrian had the right of way (did they enter during a "Don't Walk" phase, for example).

The results of a simulation study aren't compelling enough for me either and I said so much previously ("Ultimately, i want to see the study that indicates suppressing the FYA would be safer (real world numbers, not just simulation studies)".   The simulation study is effective in showing that some drivers fail to look for pedestrians inside the crosswalk during a permissive left turn but it fails to tell you how unsafe this driving behavior would be in the real world (that's where the unintended consequences come into play).  I don't think Washington State should roll out these FYAs until some real world numbers come in that indicate they are indeed safer for pedestrians.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 23, 2016, 02:09:36 PM
Wait..I read the original post wrong.  4-7% did NOT focus on the pedestrians?  I was reading it as only 4-7% focused on the pedestrians.

While you would want 100% of traffic to focus on everything at all times, if only 5% didn't focus on the pedestrians in a simulation study, that's really not all that bad.  And it would be interesting to see what the comparison is to other traffic signals and devices (stop signs, yielding on green ball, etc).

The only thing to make it perfectly safe for pedestrians is bridges or tunnels.  And even that isn't going to be 100% effective.  There's still those that run across the road for no reason.  And if there is a car accident, if a person exits their car and gets hit and killed, that fatality is considered a pedestrian fatality.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 05:43:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
I don't think Washington State should roll out these FYAs until some real world numbers come in that indicate they are indeed safer for pedestrians.

By all accounts, Bellevue, WA's rollout is a study of their effectiveness. If they don't work, they'll rip them out (err, disable the phasing). If they do, they'll keep them.

When I was up in Bellevue today, I noticed that some of the FYA's gave the crosswalk the walk sign before the FYA was turned on, so that pedestrians were well into the crosswalk before drivers could proceed (to make it plain, not all of Bellevue's FYA's have 24/7/365 "ped minus left" phasing -- the only signals that have them, were ones that were previously protected only, and they're only enabled during peak hours). I've seen this phasing a lot in Downtown Seattle, and other cities across the US (pedestrian pre-emption or something like that).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 05:43:18 PM
By all accounts, Bellevue, WA's rollout is a study of their effectiveness. If they don't work, they'll rip them out (err, disable the phasing). If they do, they'll keep them.

IMO, two things are needed for them to be effective:

1). Pedestrian detection (ie. Pushbuttons) so the controller knows when to suppress the FYA.
2). A high pedestrian compliance rate.

I'm sure the traffic engineers in Bellevue have good intentions but IMO they are making the intersections less pedestrian friendly by installing pushbuttons everywhere.  Here's a study out of Florida that looks at the compliance rate of pedestrians based on various walk modes (Intersection A & B don't require pushbutton use; Intersection C & D requires pushbutton use). 

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FuntitledFlorida_zpschdas9g4.png&hash=53033c939b1d9c76ce5c8fb7494c81a634e1c2bb)
http://scholarcommons.usf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6025&context=etd

The intersections that required pushbutton use had abysmal pedestrian compliance rates.  A 91% non-compliance rate is a total failure.  Why even bother suppressing the FYA when the pedestrian compliance rate is so bad? 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 11:18:40 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 09:36:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 05:43:18 PM
By all accounts, Bellevue, WA's rollout is a study of their effectiveness. If they don't work, they'll rip them out (err, disable the phasing). If they do, they'll keep them.

IMO, two things are needed for them to be effective:

1). Pedestrian detection (ie. Pushbuttons) so the controller knows when to suppress the FYA.
2). A high pedestrian compliance rate.

I'm sure the traffic engineers in Bellevue have good intentions but IMO they are making the intersections less pedestrian friendly by installing pushbuttons everywhere.  Here's a study out of Florida that looks at the compliance rate of pedestrians based on various walk modes (Intersection A & B don't require pushbutton use; Intersection C & D requires pushbutton use). 
...

The intersections that required pushbutton use had abysmal pedestrian compliance rates.  A 91% non-compliance rate is a total failure.  Why even bother suppressing the FYA when the pedestrian compliance rate is so bad? 

I'd have to see some numbers, but I think it's fair to say that some parts of the country have higher compliance rates than others. Having driven through Bellevue on numerous occasions, while there are jaywalkers, I don't necessarily think it's a widespread problem.

I could be wrong, but don't adaptive traffic systems require pushbuttons? Crossings without pushbuttons are timed, yes? Timed intersections are really quite rare around here, outside of the city centers. Downtown Bellevue has some, but Downtown Bellevue also has a lot of protected-only left turns in the pedestrian-heavy areas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 24, 2016, 12:36:40 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 11:18:40 PM
I could be wrong, but don't adaptive traffic systems require pushbuttons? Crossings without pushbuttons are timed, yes? Timed intersections are really quite rare around here, outside of the city centers. Downtown Bellevue has some, but Downtown Bellevue also has a lot of protected-only left turns in the pedestrian-heavy areas.

Adaptive systems don't require pushbuttons.  Deciding whether or not to install a pushbutton at a particular intersection isn't dependent on if the signal will be running adaptively.  Now it's true that without pushbuttons you are limited to how "adaptive"  the signal can run but common sense should be used.  For instance if the required main-street pedestrian phase is only 15 seconds you probably don't need main-street pushbuttons.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 24, 2016, 11:44:31 AM
Quote from: vdeane on May 22, 2016, 07:29:09 PM
I think you misread my post.  I was responding to Mr. Parclo B4's assertion that we should eliminate all permissive left turns across the entire highways system because of the problem rather than just have the red arrow when pedestrians are crossing.

Vdeane, I don't want to eliminate all permissive left turns across the entire highway system.   Why would you even suggest that?   But I can't stop how the city of Bellevue wants to manages their traffic signals.   If they want to make every traffic signal in the city protected only then go for it.  They can do whatever the hell they want.

Quote from: tradephoric on May 22, 2016, 02:44:23 PMDrivers shouldn't be conditioned to believe pedestrians will be clear of the crosswalk when a permissive phase is displayed.  The fact is the compliance rate of pedestrians is abysmal and many will cross during the solid don't walk.  If an agency is so concerned with vehicle/ped conflicts they should make the left turn protected only.  Or just leave it as it is and allow permissive phasing with the walk.

Now if I was so opposed to permissive left turns why would I suggest they allow permissive phasing when a walk is displayed to the pedestrian?  That's more aggressive than what some here are proposing (ie. running a solid red arrow when the walk is on; permissive otherwise).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 12:17:17 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 24, 2016, 12:36:40 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 11:18:40 PM
I could be wrong, but don't adaptive traffic systems require pushbuttons? Crossings without pushbuttons are timed, yes? Timed intersections are really quite rare around here, outside of the city centers. Downtown Bellevue has some, but Downtown Bellevue also has a lot of protected-only left turns in the pedestrian-heavy areas.

Adaptive systems don’t require pushbuttons.  Deciding whether or not to install a pushbutton at a particular intersection isn’t dependent on if the signal will be running adaptively.  Now it’s true that without pushbuttons you are limited to how “adaptive” the signal can run but common sense should be used.  For instance if the required main-street pedestrian phase is only 15 seconds you probably don't need main-street pushbuttons.

Doesn't work.  An adaptive system must detect both vehicles and pedestrians.  Otherwise, you will have timed systems.   The light will need to cycle every so often, 24 hours a day, if there's no pedestrian push button available.

Even if a 'pedestrian' phase is 15 seconds (which would only work if the cross street is a 2 lane roadway w/o shoulders), a car phase can be completed in half that time.  No sense having an extra 8 seconds of nothing going on if no pedestrians are present.   And you're not going to find crosswalks short enough to complete a ped phase in 15 seconds in most areas where adaptive systems are utilized. 

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 24, 2016, 03:19:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 12:17:17 PMDoesn't work.  An adaptive system must detect both vehicles and pedestrians.  Otherwise, you will have timed systems.   The light will need to cycle every so often, 24 hours a day, if there's no pedestrian push button available.

A signal that constantly cycles can still run adaptively.  Adaptive operation simply adjusts the signal splits based on the traffic volumes present on a cycle-by-cycle basis.  Yes, it's sometimes nice to have side-street pushbuttons so a signal can rest in main-street green, but it's not a prerequisite for adaptive operation.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 24, 2016, 12:17:17 PMEven if a 'pedestrian' phase is 15 seconds (which would only work if the cross street is a 2 lane roadway w/o shoulders), a car phase can be completed in half that time.  No sense having an extra 8 seconds of nothing going on if no pedestrians are present.   And you're not going to find crosswalks short enough to complete a ped phase in 15 seconds in most areas where adaptive systems are utilized. 

Ok, but how often do you want your main drag to run 15 seconds?  I'm distinguishing between main-street and side-street pedestrian crossings because the distinction is important.  Sure, you may want to run your side-street less than 15 seconds but you rarely if ever would want to run your main-street that short.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 02:13:15 PM
Here's an intersection at 4th & 108th in Bellevue, Washington.   The intersection has pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.  I have no idea if this signal runs adaptively (and it's meaningless to the discussion) but it seems silly to have pushbuttons when this much pedestrian traffic is present.  Based on the high amount of pedestrian traffic the pushbutton will be pushed nearly every cycle anyways so why even bother with the pushbuttons?   Looking around Bellevue on streetview they have an overabundance of pushbuttons!

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FBellevueUntitled_zps4kcjbaaa.png&hash=9d268d6fe551f6f8b4581af6b5968849546ba1e4)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 02:13:15 PM
Here’s an intersection at 4th & 108th in Bellevue, Washington.   The intersection has pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.  I have no idea if this signal runs adaptively (and it’s meaningless to the discussion) but it seems silly to have pushbuttons when this much pedestrian traffic is present.  Based on the high amount of pedestrian traffic the pushbutton will be pushed nearly every cycle anyways so why even bother with the pushbuttons?   Looking around Bellevue on streetview they have an overabundance of pushbuttons!

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FBellevueUntitled_zps4kcjbaaa.png&hash=9d268d6fe551f6f8b4581af6b5968849546ba1e4)


Really?  Your entire argument that pushbuttons aren't needed is based on the one moment in time a Streetview camera passes by? 

Here's the aerial view.  Where's all the pedestrians?  https://goo.gl/maps/CKMAJUQHXwt

Here's the view on 4th Street.  I can count 6 pedestrians total. https://goo.gl/maps/8qK3Ko7BRK52

Here's the same exact view you presented...one year earlier: https://goo.gl/maps/PDGBAcpjzjT2

Another view, from 2008: https://goo.gl/maps/6W2UUDHC7Lv

What a fricken joke.  This more than anything shows and proves you cherrypick data and information to present information in a misleading manner.   Yes, pushbuttons are perfectly fine, because obviously the intersection isn't always going to have dozens of people, and probably for a good portion of the night and weekends, none at all.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Really?  Your entire argument that pushbuttons aren't needed is based on the one moment in time a Streetview camera passes by? 

Here's the aerial view.  Where's all the pedestrians?  https://goo.gl/maps/CKMAJUQHXwt

Here's the view on 4th Street.  I can count 6 pedestrians total. https://goo.gl/maps/8qK3Ko7BRK52

Here's the same exact view you presented...one year earlier: https://goo.gl/maps/PDGBAcpjzjT2

Another view, from 2008: https://goo.gl/maps/6W2UUDHC7Lv

Every link you posted has at least 4 pedestrians in the immediate vicinity of the intersection.  The streetview image I originally posted does have a lot of pedestrians in the crosswalk (perhaps more than normal).  But your additional links strengthens my point that this is a high pedestrian area.  If you look at the streetview image I posted you can make out a half dozen 20+ story buildings.  There's a good chance there's going to be a lot of pedestrians roaming around with that much density.  Jeffandnicole, I'm not trying to trick you with common sense.  No it's not downtown NYC but Bellevue has enough foot traffic where you don't need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.   

^If you disagree with everything I just said here at least consider this...

Let's assume an intersection only gets 2 pedestrians a day.  Even that intersection doesn't need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.  Oftentimes main-street pedestrian crossings run shorter than the time needed for main-street vehicular traffic.  If the pedestrians fit in the required vehicle times then you don't need to run pushbuttons on main-street.  Traffic engineers will give you reasons why pushbuttons are a good idea even for main-street pedestrian crossings.  The problem is any safety benefits they are trying to achieve aren't realized because the pedestrian compliance rate of intersections with pushbuttons is abysmal (ie. the Florida study where the non-compliance rate was 91%).  The point is you don't need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of most intersection (even suburban intersections that gets nearly zero pedestrian traffic).   
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 25, 2016, 09:14:56 PM
Still though, this whole pushbutton fiasco could be avoided if we just got over the fear of possible faults.

The best adaptive signals in the world need active (read: immediate) input for all modes of transport. The only efficient way to sense pedestrians is to have them press a button. You can have a minimum green time, and display a walk sign during those, but even that's an unnecessary handicap -- just use pushbuttons, and you can get 3-second greens!

Alternatively, use a camera to watch the ADA ramps, and activate the crosswalk when pedestrians arrive. That might get over the pushbutton fault-fear.

London, one of the busiest cities in the world, uses pushbuttons at all of their junctions (note the yellow boxes):

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FhvmVUPu.png&hash=bd40e945a0b73cb79e8d34ba8f6d7b0e29ef220e)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 09:40:22 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Really?  Your entire argument that pushbuttons aren't needed is based on the one moment in time a Streetview camera passes by? 

Here's the aerial view.  Where's all the pedestrians?  https://goo.gl/maps/CKMAJUQHXwt

Here's the view on 4th Street.  I can count 6 pedestrians total. https://goo.gl/maps/8qK3Ko7BRK52

Here's the same exact view you presented...one year earlier: https://goo.gl/maps/PDGBAcpjzjT2

Another view, from 2008: https://goo.gl/maps/6W2UUDHC7Lv

Every link you posted has at least 4 pedestrians in the immediate vicinity of the intersection.  The streetview image I originally posted does have a lot of pedestrians in the crosswalk (perhaps more than normal).  But your additional links strengthens my point that this is a high pedestrian area.  If you look at the streetview image I posted you can make out a half dozen 20+ story buildings.  There’s a good chance there’s going to be a lot of pedestrians roaming around with that much density.  Jeffandnicole, I’m not trying to trick you with common sense.  No it’s not downtown NYC but Bellevue has enough foot traffic where you don’t need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.   

^If you disagree with everything I just said here at least consider this…

Let’s assume an intersection only gets 2 pedestrians a day.  Even that intersection doesn’t need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of the intersection.  Oftentimes main-street pedestrian crossings run shorter than the time needed for main-street vehicular traffic.  If the pedestrians fit in the required vehicle times then you don’t need to run pushbuttons on main-street.  Traffic engineers will give you reasons why pushbuttons are a good idea even for main-street pedestrian crossings.  The problem is any safety benefits they are trying to achieve aren’t realized because the pedestrian compliance rate of intersections with pushbuttons is abysmal (ie. the Florida study where the non-compliance rate was 91%).  The point is you don’t need pushbuttons at all 4 corners of most intersection (even suburban intersections that gets nearly zero pedestrian traffic).   


And then, you wind up with signals that cycle every minute, 24/7, for absolutely no reason.

There's a reason why engineers install ped push buttons.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 10:58:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 09:40:22 PM
And then, you wind up with signals that cycle every minute, 24/7, for absolutely no reason.

There's a reason why engineers install ped push buttons.

No.  I'm proposing that you get rid of the pushbuttons along the main-street but keep the pushbuttons along the side-street.  With this setup you can rest in green along the main-street if no vehicles or pedestrians are detected along the side-street.  Here's a streetview image along Santa Monica Boulavard of what I'm describing:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0907344,-118.3463743,3a,75y,102.1h,73.1t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sFubt3AN0l-Ub45PudRDFUw!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DFubt3AN0l-Ub45PudRDFUw%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D148.58577%26pitch%3D0!7i13312!8i6656

If you notice there are no pushbuttons for pedestrians walking down Santa Monica Boulevard.  The WALK will come up automatically.  There are, however, pushbuttons for pedestrians crossing Santa Monica Boulevard (side-street peds).  With this setup Santa Monica Boulevard could rest in green and WALK all day long if nobody is detected along the side-street.  There is nothing wrong with not having pushbuttons along the main-street. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 10:22:58 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 25, 2016, 09:14:56 PMLondon, one of the busiest cities in the world, uses pushbuttons at all of their junctions (note the yellow boxes):

I understand the use of pushbuttons for side-street pedestrians but why have them along main-street (especially at extremely short crossings)?  Here's an example of an intersection near downtown London.  Are the pushbuttons circled in red really necessary?  I don't see how it would negatively affect operations of the intersection if these pushbuttons were removed:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FLondonUntitled_zpsaelnng8g.png&hash=34edd0f913fa73c309729e1a579bf856142ac44b)
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.5103339,-0.1384742,3a,60y,68.63h,78.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1svaYiWTDS9AWfUz0OqecssQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on May 26, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 25, 2016, 02:59:30 PM
Really?  Your entire argument that pushbuttons aren't needed is based on the one moment in time a Streetview camera passes by? 

Here's the aerial view.  Where's all the pedestrians?  https://goo.gl/maps/CKMAJUQHXwt

Here's the view on 4th Street.  I can count 6 pedestrians total. https://goo.gl/maps/8qK3Ko7BRK52

Here's the same exact view you presented...one year earlier: https://goo.gl/maps/PDGBAcpjzjT2

Another view, from 2008: https://goo.gl/maps/6W2UUDHC7Lv

What a fricken joke.  This more than anything shows and proves you cherrypick data and information to present information in a misleading manner.   Yes, pushbuttons are perfectly fine, because obviously the intersection isn't always going to have dozens of people, and probably for a good portion of the night and weekends, none at all.

Yeah.  That guy is confirmation bias incarnate.  He obsesses about one argument, his own, and instead of working to choose the best argument about a situation, he defends his one single original position to the death.  This leads to cherrypicking obscure data and statistics even when there's overwhelming obvious evidence pointing to a different solution.  Call this post a circumstantial ad hominem, sure.  But I'm just saying I've tangled with this guy before and it was the exact same thing I dealt with.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 11:06:34 AM
^I make simple points.  You don't need main-street pushbuttons for a signal to rest in green on the main-street.  But you have jeffandnicole coming back saying "you wind up with signals that cycle every minute, 24/7, for absolutely no reason."  They simply don't understand the difference between main-street and side-street pushbuttons.  But by all means paulthemapguy, keep defending someone who is wrong.  I'm sure that will help them sort things out. 







Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 26, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
If you don't have push buttons on the main street, you need a resting walk phase.  Thus, before the side street gets the green you're going to have to go through the flashing don't walk and whatnot.  That will significantly delay the response to traffic on the side street.  In addition, it further encourages pedestrians to ignore push buttons.

In the era of facial recognition, it should be possible to do photo don't walk enforcement just like we do for red light cameras.  Funny how many bike/ped advocates LOVE the cameras for motorists (also speed cameras) but never suggest them for pedestrians.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 26, 2016, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 26, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Yeah.  That guy is confirmation bias incarnate.  He obsesses about one argument, his own, and instead of working to choose the best argument about a situation, he defends his one single original position to the death.  This leads to cherrypicking obscure data and statistics even when there's overwhelming obvious evidence pointing to a different solution.  Call this post a circumstantial ad hominem, sure.  But I'm just saying I've tangled with this guy before and it was the exact same thing I dealt with.

Not the first time here either.  He just did a clumsy job of looking for a ped-busy intersection to try to justify his remarks, failing to think that numerous other photos of the same intersection would heavily contradict how busy it always is.  And now he's trying to say that push buttons aren't needed for the main street direction, which is a reduction of his previously stated "push buttons aren't needed at all" remarks.

Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
In the era of facial recognition, it should be possible to do photo don't walk enforcement just like we do for red light cameras.  Funny how many bike/ped advocates LOVE the cameras for motorists (also speed cameras) but never suggest them for pedestrians.

And you would think they would be advocating for cameras, as it will detect all sorts of pedestrians in the vicinity of the cross-walk, including those that have handicaps making pushing a button more difficult.  I wouldn't say facial recognition cameras are needed...just the same time cameras used for vehicles that detect *something* in its line-of-sight.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 26, 2016, 01:29:52 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 26, 2016, 01:23:30 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 26, 2016, 10:39:26 AM
Yeah.  That guy is confirmation bias incarnate.  He obsesses about one argument, his own, and instead of working to choose the best argument about a situation, he defends his one single original position to the death.  This leads to cherrypicking obscure data and statistics even when there's overwhelming obvious evidence pointing to a different solution.  Call this post a circumstantial ad hominem, sure.  But I'm just saying I've tangled with this guy before and it was the exact same thing I dealt with.

Not the first time here either.  He just did a clumsy job of looking for a ped-busy intersection to try to justify his remarks, failing to think that numerous other photos of the same intersection would heavily contradict how busy it always is.  And now he's trying to say that push buttons aren't needed for the main street direction, which is a reduction of his previously stated "push buttons aren't needed at all" remarks.


I've learned to ignore him. I got sick of engaging after the Parclo B4 nonsense, where he did the same thing to try and prove that every other interchange type is inferior. The argument keeps changing as well. I'm convinced he's a politician or lawyer for his day job.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 02:00:25 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 26, 2016, 01:23:30 PM
And now he's trying to say that push buttons aren't needed for the main street direction, which is a reduction of his previously stated "push buttons aren't needed at all" remarks.

Originally Jake had asked if pushbuttons are needed for adaptive operation.  I indicated a signal doesn't have to have pushbuttons for it to run adaptively.  That's the context of the "push buttons aren't needed at all"  although I can't find where I actually said that exact phrase (but I've learned that facts aren't important to jeffandnicole).  I had also said this:

Quote from: tradephoric on May 24, 2016, 03:19:25 PM
A signal that constantly cycles can still run adaptively.  Adaptive operation simply adjusts the signal splits based on the traffic volumes present on a cycle-by-cycle basis.  Yes, it's sometimes nice to have side-street pushbuttons so a signal can rest in main-street green, but it's not a prerequisite for adaptive operation.

Obviously side-street pushbuttons make sense sometimes (it allows the signal to rest in main-street green... which can be a very good thing).  Jeffandnicole, the fact that you don't understand the difference between side-street and main-street peds is not my problem.   It's not a reduction of my previous statement it's a reflection of your ignorance.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 02:02:58 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
If you don't have push buttons on the main street, you need a resting walk phase.  Thus, before the side street gets the green you're going to have to go through the flashing don't walk and whatnot.  That will significantly delay the response to traffic on the side street.  In addition, it further encourages pedestrians to ignore push buttons.

This is a very valid point and I'm glad you brought it up.  But there is a counter point that should be considered.  Many agencies refuse to bring up a WALK in the middle of a green phase.  So if a pedestrian is walking down main-street and approaches a solid don't walk, if they press the pushbutton a WALK won't come up.  Instead, the signal will have to cycle to the side-street so it can get back to the start of main-street green (at which point the Walk will come up for the pedestrian).  Under this scenario, a signal that could have rested in green on main-street would have to cycle to the side-street every time a main-street pushbutton is pressed.  It's inefficient to cycle to the side-street when nobody is actually waiting on the side-street. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 26, 2016, 01:29:52 PMI've learned to ignore him. I got sick of engaging after the Parclo B4 nonsense, where he did the same thing to try and prove that every other interchange type is inferior. The argument keeps changing as well. I'm convinced he's a politician or lawyer for his day job.

CL94, you replied to a post I made just a few days ago, calling me out by name.  Not only that, you suggested what I was talking about was a "great idea"  (your words, not mine).  So which is it?  Today you ignore me and tomorrow you will want to talk?  You have some wild swings in temperament.

Quote from: cl94 on May 22, 2016, 06:17:01 PMI think Trade is referring to phasing that eliminates the FY when the ped phase is active. If a person pushes the button, the FY phase could be disabled to increase pedestrian safety. I think this is a great idea and it goes along with how some places, notably some locations in NYSDOT Region 1, have blackout NTOR signs that are only lit when a ped phase at a conflicting crosswalk is active to protect pedestrians from idiots turning on red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 26, 2016, 06:37:02 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 02:36:44 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 26, 2016, 01:29:52 PMI've learned to ignore him. I got sick of engaging after the Parclo B4 nonsense, where he did the same thing to try and prove that every other interchange type is inferior. The argument keeps changing as well. I'm convinced he's a politician or lawyer for his day job.

CL94, you replied to a post I made just a few days ago, calling me out by name.  Not only that, you suggested what I was talking about was a "great idea"  (your words, not mine).  So which is it?  Today you ignore me and tomorrow you will want to talk?  You have some wild swings in temperament.

Quote from: cl94 on May 22, 2016, 06:17:01 PMI think Trade is referring to phasing that eliminates the FY when the ped phase is active. If a person pushes the button, the FY phase could be disabled to increase pedestrian safety. I think this is a great idea and it goes along with how some places, notably some locations in NYSDOT Region 1, have blackout NTOR signs that are only lit when a ped phase at a conflicting crosswalk is active to protect pedestrians from idiots turning on red.

Evidently, I thought you were talking about something else.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 07:46:45 PM
CL94, you are making it a habit responding to my posts.  I liked it better when you ignored me.  At least then I didn't have to read your mindless drivel you pass off as a rational thought.  See, we can all make personal attacks, but they become boring.  And don't pretend like you haven't been attacking me by suggesting I'm a lawyer or politician in my day job.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on May 26, 2016, 08:15:39 PM
My understanding is that push buttons are legally required by the design standards at any signalized pedestrian crossing in the UK. Furthermore I believe the controllers are normally programmed such that pedestrian signals don't turn green during a normal signal phase if they aren't activated by a button. So whether or not they are pointless is redundant, at least in the British context. They also typically have a tactile device that helps blind people tell if the signal is green.

Even in the US we might want to require manual activation at all pedestrian signals for accessibility purposes (audio prompting for the blind and/or a similar tactile system).

Anyway I return you to your argument.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 26, 2016, 08:23:46 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 02:02:58 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2016, 01:05:20 PM
If you don't have push buttons on the main street, you need a resting walk phase.  Thus, before the side street gets the green you're going to have to go through the flashing don't walk and whatnot.  That will significantly delay the response to traffic on the side street.  In addition, it further encourages pedestrians to ignore push buttons.

This is a very valid point and I'm glad you brought it up.  But there is a counter point that should be considered.  Many agencies refuse to bring up a WALK in the middle of a green phase.  So if a pedestrian is walking down main-street and approaches a solid don't walk, if they press the pushbutton a WALK won't come up.  Instead, the signal will have to cycle to the side-street so it can get back to the start of main-street green (at which point the Walk will come up for the pedestrian).  Under this scenario, a signal that could have rested in green on main-street would have to cycle to the side-street every time a main-street pushbutton is pressed.  It's inefficient to cycle to the side-street when nobody is actually waiting on the side-street.

Another point to consider is whether you would want to operate the signal differently at different times. For example, if it would make more sense at some point to have the signal run in free (demand) mode, you have to have pedestrian push buttons to accommodate that.

I think it is better to install buttons to allow flexibility to run the signal in different operation modes, than to leave buttons off completely.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 08:47:02 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on May 26, 2016, 08:15:39 PMEven in the US we might want to require manual activation at all pedestrian signals for accessibility purposes (audio prompting for the blind and/or a similar tactile system).

In theory that sounds great.  But as previously said...

Quote from: tradephoric on May 25, 2016, 08:00:49 PM...traffic engineers will give you reasons why pushbuttons are a good idea even for main-street pedestrian crossings.  The problem is any safety benefits they are trying to achieve aren't realized because the pedestrian compliance rate of intersections with pushbuttons is abysmal (ie. the Florida study where the non-compliance rate was 91%).

Protecting blind pedestrians at all pedestrian crossings is a noble goal but wouldn't it be wise to get a handle on the high non-compliance rate of pedestrians at pushbutton intersections?  Based on the Florida study pedestrians have no respect for the Solid Don't Walk.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 09:17:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on May 26, 2016, 08:23:46 PMAnother point to consider is whether you would want to operate the signal differently at different times. For example, if it would make more sense at some point to have the signal run in free (demand) mode, you have to have pedestrian push buttons to accommodate that.

I think it is better to install buttons to allow flexibility to run the signal in different operation modes, than to leave buttons off completely.

Depending on the intersection I agree with you.  At a rural isolated intersection, it would make sense to have pushbuttons at all pedestrian crossings so it can run snappy in the middle of the night.   But installing pushbuttons at all 4 corners of Santa Monica Boulevard?  I don't see the benefit.  When would you ever want to run that signal free?  Obviously pushbuttons give the greatest flexibility for traffic engineers but from my experience that flexibility is rarely used. 

By the way, would Reno ever bring up a WALK in the middle of a green phase when somebody presses the pushbutton or is that unheard of?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 27, 2016, 05:23:32 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 26, 2016, 09:17:04 PM
By the way, would Reno ever bring up a WALK in the middle of a green phase when somebody presses the pushbutton or is that unheard of?

Reno has many signals that don't rest in walk or otherwise automatically bring up the WALK signal concurrent with the adjacent through green phase on the major street. I can think a few that will bring up the WALK in the middle of the adjacent green phase immediately upon pressing the pushbutton...provided there is enough time to run the full WALK+FDW cycle within the remaining green time.

I can also think of another signal near where I used to live in NW Reno. In later night hours, the E/W road rested in green and the associated pedestrian phases would simultaneously activate the WALK & FDW cycle. If the countdown got to 0 and there were no vehicle/ped calls on the north or south legs, the E/W green remained green and a fresh WALK cycle would come up.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 11:00:02 AM
Quote from: vdeane on May 26, 2016, 01:05:20 PMMy understanding is that push buttons are legally required by the design standards at any signalized pedestrian crossing in the UK. Furthermore I believe the controllers are normally programmed such that pedestrian signals don't turn green during a normal signal phase if they aren't activated by a button. So whether or not they are pointless is redundant, at least in the British context. They also typically have a tactile device that helps blind people tell if the signal is green.

I linked a BBC article that discusses how pushbuttons operate in the UK.  It definitely appears pushbuttons are commonplace in the UK with many of them turning on automatically during busy pedestrian times.  But in the article even the Head of Traffic Infrastructure at TfL admits to not knowing how many pushbuttons run automated and how many operate by pressing the button.

QuoteTransport for London denies it is misleading people. There are 4,650 pedestrian crossings in London of which about 2,500 are at junctions. At the majority of these junctions the button controls the green man, says Iain Blackmore, Head of Traffic Infrastructure at TfL. It is difficult to say how many are completely automated and how many operated by the button without someone analysing each junction, he says.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-23869955

While London is installs pushbuttons at every pedestrian crossing, NYC is actively ripping them out.  Most of the pushbuttons in NYC have been inoperable for the past 20-30 years (when in the 80's many of the semi-actuated traffic signals were converted to fixed-time due to the increase in traffic volumes).  Since fixed-time requires the signal to cycle 24/7, there's really no need to have the pushbuttons.  Now does the traffic flow in NYC suffer by having fix-timed signals?   If you get a chance watch the youtube video of a cabby driving down 1st Avenue for 125 blocks without hitting a red light.  You could never do something like that in London.

I'll take an efficient network of fixed-time signals (NYC) over an inefficient network of adaptive signals (London).  A great example of an efficient road network is downtown Portland, Oregon (you won't see many pushbuttons there either).  The point is, the efficiency of a road network may effect how a city views pushbutton use.  Some cities with horribly laid out road networks might want to install pushbuttons at every intersection to squeeze out every last second of green time at a poorly placed traffic signal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jGWdCknurM
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 27, 2016, 11:14:41 AM
Wow.  Look at all those cars in Portland that never turn, drive a single car length behind each other, everyone moves at the exact same speed of 12.5 mph, and have such confidence in the traffic signals that they never have to slow down.  Oh, yeah, not a single pedestrian or bicyclist to be seen either.

:thumbdown:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 11:31:29 AM
^Your average Joe (IE. YOU) wouldn't be able to visualize what a "perfect grid" would look like without simplifying the traffic model.  Obviously this is meant to be theoretical and anybody with a pea-sized brain would realize this.   How big is your brain Jeffandnicole?

If i said the sun rises in the east you would argue that it rises in the west.. just to be D*#$. 

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 27, 2016, 11:40:50 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 11:31:29 AM
^Your average Joe (IE.  YOU) wouldn't be able to visualize what a "perfect grid" would look like without simplifying the traffic model.  Obviously this is meant to be a theoretical and anybody with a pea-sized brain would realize this.   How big is your brain Jeffandnicole?

If i said the sun rises in the east you would argue that it rises in the west.. just to be D*#$. 


No...I'm referring to simulated crap that you spend all day search for on the web, vs. real life conditions that would never approach such perfection.

I can go on to say no one ever pulls into a parking garage.  No one ever parallel parks.  No buses dropping off and picking up.  Heck, no pedestrians or bicyclists (no wonder why push buttons aren't needed).  Basically, the video you posted could be done on any grid system anywhere, because the video showed absolutely no variable towards real scenarios.  Some drivers will stop and go when they're not supposed to.  Drivers will break down.  Drivers will turn from wrong lanes.  People will jaywalk.  Cars will stop to give panhandlers money.  Cops and firetrucks will come whizzing thru.  If any one of the above occurred, it would destroy Portland's "great example of an efficient road network".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 12:36:49 PM
^Obviously the perfect progression seen in the model is going to be reduced to something less than perfect progression in the real world.  That is common sense.  But for some of the scenarios you describe there are simple solutions to maintain progression (ie. change lanes to get around slowdowns). 

Would you not try to provide good progression just because there are scenarios in the real world that would ruin progression?  That would be like a doctor not operating on a patient because they know that their patient will eventually die (in 50 years).  Sure, sometimes progression will be lost just like sometimes people die.  And the sun will still rise in the east. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2016, 04:56:34 PM
Puyallup, Washington has been installing some new flashing yellow arrows. They mostly replace 5-section heads, but some are new outright.

The biggest catch with these new signals is how pedestrians play into the phasing. Check out this snippet from the formal document according the city $530k in federal grants (http://goo.gl/eRJat5):

Quote from: same quote repeated throughout document
...replace traffic signal controllers, conflict monitors, and cabinets; modify peak hour signal timings to disable the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed; and do incidental work required to accomplish this.

I've brought up disabling the flashing yellow arrow during pedestrian phasing prior to now. While the idea has been dabbled with by cities outside of Seattle, namely Bellevue and Redmond, Puyallup appears to be the first major city, at least in Washington, to outright ban permissive phasing during times when the pedestrian crossing phase is activated, at all intersections. I actually wasted a bunch of time today, going around and checking out the current FYA's around Puyallup. Sure enough, the red arrow pops up when the crosswalk is activated. I'm not really sure what they mean when they say "peak hour", because all of the crossings I tested disabled the phase in the middle of the afternoon. I'll need to go back and check later, at different times of the day, to see whether or not the time of day plays into whether or not the red arrow or flashing yellow arrow is called.

I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.

Are the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 27, 2016, 12:57:54 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PM
Are the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

Last I checked, the entire phase. But I'll need to check again to confirm that this is the case.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 02:06:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2016, 05:43:18 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 23, 2016, 01:56:42 PM
I don't think Washington State should roll out these FYAs until some real world numbers come in that indicate they are indeed safer for pedestrians.

By all accounts, Bellevue, WA's rollout is a study of their effectiveness. If they don't work, they'll rip them out (err, disable the phasing). If they do, they'll keep them.

When I was up in Bellevue today, I noticed that some of the FYA's gave the crosswalk the walk sign before the FYA was turned on, so that pedestrians were well into the crosswalk before drivers could proceed (to make it plain, not all of Bellevue's FYA's have 24/7/365 "ped minus left" phasing -- the only signals that have them, were ones that were previously protected only, and they're only enabled during peak hours). I've seen this phasing a lot in Downtown Seattle, and other cities across the US (pedestrian pre-emption or something like that).

LPI or leading ped interval.  Very common in areas where there is no turn on red.  Allow the peds to walk for a few seconds before red turns to green, so that turners can actually see the peds in the crosswalks.  What you discuss above is a great application in the context of turning left and is not quite as onerous as the "ped minus left" which seems to mean that no left turns at all, if there is a ped signal actuated.

I know of an intersection in Baltimore that does this, but it is slightly different as this is a left turn from one-way to one-way.  When the light first turns green, peds and straight traffic can go, but left turners see a red arrow.  After about 10 seconds, the red arrow disappears and now left turners operate with a green ball - a permissive left, yielding to peds.

See here:  https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2866892,-76.6135629,3a,75y,185.24h,79.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sefofjL7wZFXZZo-FOAaCvg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656



Another similar issue - in  a different context - are the midblock signalized ped crossings.  A ped pushes the button.  The signal goes from green-yellow-red.  The ped crosses and walks relatively fast so he gets to the other side of the street.  Meanwhile traffic is held up with a red light.  To address these issues, there are some special signals that allow for the car traffic to go, becuase the solid red will then become a flashing red (HAWK signals, flashing red signals in Downtown LA). 

The LPI is a similar thing, peds only at the start of the cycle, cars may proceed after a few seconds, if there are no pedestrians present.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here). 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 02:27:58 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here).

The Ped minus left signal setting is still an improvement over a completely protected only left turn.  I'm guessing that their might be some political reasons for suggeting this phasing - that there may be resistance among pedestrian activist types.  The ped minus left phasing provides the exact same level of safety for peds that push buttons and wait for the walk signal as protected only left turns.

But it is still annoying because you would have to wait even if there is nobody there.

An LPI would provide a very reasonable compromise.  Red arrow for only the first 5-10 seconds of the crossing, and then permissive left turns.  If you are the only one there (no peds, no opposing vehicles) then you can turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:59:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 02:27:58 PM
An LPI would provide a very reasonable compromise.  Red arrow for only the first 5-10 seconds of the crossing, and then permissive left turns.  If you are the only one there (no peds, no opposing vehicles) then you can turn.

Opposing through traffic can act as a natural barrier protecting pedestrians during the first 5-10 seconds of a permissive left turn phase.   Drivers have enough confusion with the FYA that it might not be a great idea to start the FYA in the middle of a through green phase.   That said, more agencies are applying LPI for through phases (and assuming the FYA isn't allowed to start flashing until the through green is on, it has the same effect as what you are describing).   I'd be on board with that compromise.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on May 27, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 27, 2016, 12:50:21 PMAre the signals there red arrows during the entire walk phase or for just a portion?

I was wondering the same thing.  Assume you have a jogger or a bicyclist traveling through the crosswalk at 8 feet per second when the pedestrian clearance is calculated at only 3.5 feet per second.  And keep in mind that in the Florida study 53% of observed crossings were made by bicyclists.  In some cases the jogger or cyclist will have already finished their crossing before the flashing don't walk has even begun.  I'm assuming the solid red arrow has to be on for the entirety of the WALK and Flashing Don't Walk (and likely during the entire phase as Jake recalls). 

Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here). 

Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 27, 2016, 08:04:34 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 02:13:18 PM
Jake, i can't believe you aren't more annoyed by this "ped minus left"  FYA phasing, especially after the comments you made in the thread regarding protected only duel left-turns.  The reality is in many instances the pedestrian will be long gone, and you as a driver will be looking up at a solid red arrow (thinking why the hell am I stopped here).

I think a fully-protected ped interval is a fairly reasonable compromise in town centers, but, ridiculous elsewhere. Out in the "burbs", a crossing may only have one or two pedestrians at a given time, so a leading pedestrian interval works better.

As for dual-left turns, the same phasing for single lane left turns should apply to dual left turns. I'd like to see FYA's installed at all left turn locations, regardless of the number of lanes, and have them operate on a TOD schedule (after all, dual and triple turns only exist because of high volumes, which are irrelevant outside of peak hours), or alternatively, permit all-day dual permissive turns if there is a left turn off-set for the oncoming left turn lane.

Frankly, I'd rather see all-way walks in downtown cores over ped minus left, to cut down on both left- and right-turn pedestrian conflicts. But, that idea seems to be dying.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 08:24:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?

This law is out of Colorado: 
42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles

10. b. A person shall not ride a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle upon and along a sidewalk or pathway or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk where such use of bicycles or electrical assisted bicycles is prohibited by official traffic control devices or local ordinances. A person riding a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle shall dismount before entering any crosswalk where required by official traffic control devices or local ordinances.

But I rarely see cyclists dismount when entering a crosswalk.  Probably only becomes an issue if a cyclist gets struck in the crosswalk.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: myosh_tino on May 28, 2016, 01:12:09 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 27, 2016, 08:24:34 PM
Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2016, 07:46:21 PM
Aren't bicyclists supposed to dismount and walk their bikes across crosswalks?

This law is out of Colorado: 
42-4-1412. Operation of bicycles and other human-powered vehicles

10. b. A person shall not ride a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle upon and along a sidewalk or pathway or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk where such use of bicycles or electrical assisted bicycles is prohibited by official traffic control devices or local ordinances. A person riding a bicycle or electrical assisted bicycle shall dismount before entering any crosswalk where required by official traffic control devices or local ordinances.

But I rarely see cyclists dismount when entering a crosswalk.  Probably only becomes an issue if a cyclist gets struck in the crosswalk.

I do but it's almost always children riding their bikes to and from school.  I have never seen an adult do this unless they were riding with their kids (presumably to set a good example).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Jim on July 06, 2016, 08:27:03 PM
Maybe this is not news, but it's the first I saw it.  The lone traffic signal in Williamstown, Mass., now includes a flashing yellow left turn signal.  It was at least a year since my last ride through there, so maybe it's been there a while.  I was there on June 25.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.teresco.org%2Fpics%2Fma-vt-20160625%2FDSCF0007-800.jpg&hash=7f57be60c73ce53814c1ec5c1eccd7a0b9f22f9c)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on July 06, 2016, 08:28:41 PM
Saw a couple on NY 30A in Johnstown earlier today that were not there a year ago.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 10:29:06 PM
I just came back from vacation recently and came across flashing yellow turn arrows in Idaho, Montana, and Washington.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: swbrotha100 on August 03, 2016, 12:10:32 PM
Arizona has these in various cities, but the city of Phoenix will have their first one activated soon:

https://www.phoenix.gov/news/streets/1393
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on August 03, 2016, 02:01:52 PM
I'll rephrase that first sentence.

The separate flashing arrow [signal] allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while [through traffic is simultaneously halted by a separate through signal].

I didn't mean to imply that the flashing arrow also simultaneously halts through traffic, even though that's pretty much exactly what I wrote initially. I meant to place more emphasis on the fact that the flashing arrow signal is separate from the through movement signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.

I'm not sure which direction you're referring to, but it's mostly incorrect.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing left arrow, my direction may also have a green ball for straight thru traffic.  It could also have a red ball if the opposing direction has a green arrow.  But it's definitely not implied, and in this case, the yellow flashing arrow has nothing to do with my direction's straight thru traffic light color.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing yellow left arrow, the opposing direction will have a green ball, allowing for straight thru traffic.  If the opposing direction had a red ball, I should be approaching the intersection seeing a solid green left arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 03, 2016, 04:37:42 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 12:55:29 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 03, 2016, 12:29:42 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
Quote from: Quillz on July 11, 2016, 11:32:13 PM
So, my understanding is that a flashing yellow left turn arrow implies you can turn when it's safe to do so... How is that any different from a standard green light?

The separate flashing arrow allows drivers to make a left (or right) turn while simultaneously halting straight through traffic. With a standard green light, the left (or right) turn permissive phase has to be tied to the straight through movement unless special modifications like louvers are used.

At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.

I just read this.  What the hell??? 

A flashing (yellow) arrow doesn't halt straight thru traffic.  A flashing arrow simply notes that drivers can make a left when safe to do so.  Opposing traffic still has a green light.
I believe it's implied that the straight through traffic in this case would have a red signal.

I'm not sure which direction you're referring to, but it's mostly incorrect.

If I'm approaching an intersection with a flashing left arrow, my direction may also have a green ball for straight thru traffic.  It could also have a red ball if the opposing direction has a green arrow.  But it's definitely not implied, and in this case, the yellow flashing arrow has nothing to do with my direction's straight thru traffic light color.

Oh for fucks sake. Ace10's entire second paragraph (quoted below) has to do with parallel through traffic seeing a red light. The "implication" that kj3400 refers to is Ace10's use of the word "red" twice in this paragraph, which is (IMO) enough to conclude that the final sentence involves parallel through traffic seeing a red orb.

I'm sorry you couldn't figure this out, but, guessing by the fact that you were the only one to respond to him, I think it's safe to say that you were the only one confused. :-P

Quote from: Ace10 on July 12, 2016, 12:01:49 AM
At an intersection with a standard green light (no flashing arrow), if the opposing left turn gets a green arrow, straight through traffic and left-turning traffic will see a red. Even though there may not be any opposing through traffic, left turners cannot proceed due to the red light. With a flashing arrow, straight through traffic will be stopped, but left-turning traffic could proceed if there is no opposing traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kj3400 on August 03, 2016, 07:17:07 PM
I guess it wasn't as implied as I thought. Sorry.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Stephane Dumas on September 17, 2016, 07:17:19 PM
Looks like the flashing yellow left turn had made its way in Texas. http://texashighwayman.com/fya.shtml
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 20160805 on September 18, 2016, 07:14:22 AM
To update about Appleton, WI:

They're everywhere now in Appleton and the neighboring Grand Chute Twp.  Neighboring Menasha also has at least two.

Personally I'm indifferent about them; I guess they're just what they put in now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on November 01, 2016, 08:20:00 PM
Not sure if someone already posted this but the flashing yellow arrow has made an appearance in Midtown Manhattan (7th Ave & 31st Street, in front of Penn Station).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi68.tinypic.com%2F28vak49.jpg&hash=86a1d68349488841cb7fe0203b7d4697bf5ef850)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on November 02, 2016, 10:19:33 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on November 01, 2016, 08:20:00 PM
Not sure if someone already posted this but the flashing yellow arrow has made an appearance in Midtown Manhattan (7th Ave & 31st Street, in front of Penn Station).

Yes, NYC (and Manhattan in particular) is an area where some of the earliest sightings were made, and they continue to proliferate.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on November 15, 2016, 08:46:53 PM
There is another new one installed 2 weeks ago in Queens, W/B Queens Blvd service road at Broadway/Grand Ave. Its similar to the one posted above, when the main light turns green, the red right arrow stays lit for 7 seconds to let peds start crossing, then turns to flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on November 15, 2016, 09:56:56 PM
Earlier this year, CDOT realigned this intersection in Loma, CO https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1963696,-108.8124684,3a,75y,306.59h,89.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKJajVImPLR--UrdFs2JhiA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1963696,-108.8124684,3a,75y,306.59h,89.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKJajVImPLR--UrdFs2JhiA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and put in a traffic light.  On WB US-6, there is a 4-segment light that looks to have a FYA, but in the few times I've been by there, it has never been active. 

Maybe because this light is out in the middle of nowhere and the current traffic does not warrant it, or that it's related to the adjacent RR crossing and it may be a solid red arrow for left-turns when the gates are down??? I wish there was a current GSV to show.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on November 29, 2016, 04:00:45 PM
Here's a photo of an FYA I found in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5534/30397421280_23cfed4ed6_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Nj7Jjm)IMG_6663 (https://flic.kr/p/Nj7Jjm) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ColossalBlocks on December 03, 2016, 04:08:53 PM
Missouri, Both cities and MoDot has started using the flashing yellow arrow. St Louis, Cape Girardeau, Kansas City, Joplin, Springfield, Nevada, St Joseph (Idiots), and every other city with traffic lights has been infected.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
PA is the only state that doesn't have yellow traps. Instead, they've been using doghouses since the early-1970s.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on December 03, 2016, 10:14:11 PM
Quote from: ColossalBlocks on December 03, 2016, 04:08:53 PM
Missouri, Both cities and MoDot has started using the flashing yellow arrow.

And because of this Missouri has many great examples of well coordinated signals while still allowing permissive lefts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 03, 2016, 10:29:37 PM
Quote from: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
PA is the only state that doesn't have yellow traps. Instead, they've been using doghouses since the early-1970s.


Eh? PA has PLENTY of yellow traps! This is due to their overuse of "Opposing traffic has extended green" signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 10:30:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 03, 2016, 10:29:37 PM
Quote from: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
PA is the only state that doesn't have yellow traps. Instead, they've been using doghouses since the early-1970s.


Eh? PA has PLENTY of yellow traps! This is due to their overuse of "Opposing traffic has extended green" signals.
I live in PennDOT District 6,  the rules are different down where I'm at
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 10:30:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on December 03, 2016, 10:29:37 PM
Quote from: traffic light guy on December 03, 2016, 04:17:08 PM
PA is the only state that doesn't have yellow traps. Instead, they've been using doghouses since the early-1970s.


Eh? PA has PLENTY of yellow traps! This is due to their overuse of "Opposing traffic has extended green" signals.

I live in PennDOT District 6,  the rules are different down where I'm at

1) PennDOT District 6 doesn't represent the entirety of Pennsylvania (as I think you realise now)
2) Doghouses are the reason that yellow trap exists
3) Many states have done away with the yellow trap through FYAs. Washington doesn't permit pro/per signals at junctions with lead/lag phasing (unless w/ FYA).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on December 04, 2016, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
3) Many states have done away with the yellow trap through FYAs. Washington doesn't permit pro/per signals at junctions with lead/lag phasing (unless w/ FYA).

As in at least half of other states at this point. Even New York is getting onto the bandwagon and they're typically one of the last to do anything new. Heck, we still ban self-driving cars and parking assist.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on December 04, 2016, 09:32:32 AM
Quote from: cl94 on December 04, 2016, 08:38:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
3) Many states have done away with the yellow trap through FYAs. Washington doesn't permit pro/per signals at junctions with lead/lag phasing (unless w/ FYA).

As in at least half of other states at this point. Even New York is getting onto the bandwagon and they're typically one of the last to do anything new. Heck, we still ban self-driving cars and parking assist.

They were #1 with the seatbelt laws!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
2) Doghouses are the reason that yellow trap exists

Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 03:45:10 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
2) Doghouses are the reason that yellow trap exists

Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.

Well, yeah. My point is that, without the doghouse, lead/lag phasing would never have been possible. The introduction of the doghouse led to lead/lag phasing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on December 04, 2016, 04:23:54 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:02:16 AM
2) Doghouses are the reason that yellow trap exists

Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.
Not necessarily true. Many lights are programmed phase skipping combined with a delay or minimum number of vehicles in the permissive turn lane for it to get a protected signal. During off peak hours, this can (and for me at certain intersections, frequently has) led to the yellow trap.

In more details if you don't follow: Suppose I am traveling down a road and am making the next left turn. At this intersection, the sidestreets have no vehicles at all, so the phases associated with them will be skipped. The opposing left turn lane has a queue of 5 cars trying to make a left. I approach to make the left turn, and after 2 seconds, the signal gives my direction's straight movement a red ball, while the opposing direction remains with a green ball and gets its green arrow as I was not in the lane long enough to register and cause my lane to get a protected arrow. I would be in the yellow trap state, but get the green ball back after the opposing protected phase has ended. Obviously, in this scenario, with the FYA instead of doghouse, my light would remain in its FYA state so I would know not to try to clear the intersection. The lagging phases are rare around here, and I try to drive during off hours as much as I can, so this scenario was a more frequent form of yellow trap for me then lagging lefts (nearly all the signals near me now have been upgraded to FYA).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 04, 2016, 04:23:54 PM
Not necessarily true. Many lights are programmed phase skipping combined with a delay or minimum number of vehicles in the permissive turn lane for it to get a protected signal. During off peak hours, this can (and for me at certain intersections, frequently has) led to the yellow trap.

In more details if you don't follow: Suppose I am traveling down a road and am making the next left turn. At this intersection, the sidestreets have no vehicles at all, so the phases associated with them will be skipped. The opposing left turn lane has a queue of 5 cars trying to make a left. I approach to make the left turn, and after 2 seconds, the signal gives my direction's straight movement a red ball, while the opposing direction remains with a green ball and gets its green arrow as I was not in the lane long enough to register and cause my lane to get a protected arrow. I would be in the yellow trap state, but get the green ball back after the opposing protected phase has ended. Obviously, in this scenario, with the FYA instead of doghouse, my light would remain in its FYA state so I would know not to try to clear the intersection. The lagging phases are rare around here, and I try to drive during off hours as much as I can, so this scenario was a more frequent form of yellow trap for me then lagging lefts (nearly all the signals near me now have been upgraded to FYA).

If there were cars in the opposing left turn lane, waiting for traffic to clear (coming from your direction), and it flips on the green arrow for them with cars still approaching, that's classic yellow trap. Such phasing should only be allowed if there was no one coming (which isn't the case in your example, because the cars waiting would have already turned if there were no approaching cars).

Oh, and BTW: your example still requires a 5-section signal to operate, hence my point that yellow trap is only possible with 5-section signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on December 04, 2016, 05:09:08 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 04, 2016, 04:23:54 PM
Not necessarily true. Many lights are programmed phase skipping combined with a delay or minimum number of vehicles in the permissive turn lane for it to get a protected signal. During off peak hours, this can (and for me at certain intersections, frequently has) led to the yellow trap.

In more details if you don't follow: Suppose I am traveling down a road and am making the next left turn. At this intersection, the sidestreets have no vehicles at all, so the phases associated with them will be skipped. The opposing left turn lane has a queue of 5 cars trying to make a left. I approach to make the left turn, and after 2 seconds, the signal gives my direction's straight movement a red ball, while the opposing direction remains with a green ball and gets its green arrow as I was not in the lane long enough to register and cause my lane to get a protected arrow. I would be in the yellow trap state, but get the green ball back after the opposing protected phase has ended. Obviously, in this scenario, with the FYA instead of doghouse, my light would remain in its FYA state so I would know not to try to clear the intersection. The lagging phases are rare around here, and I try to drive during off hours as much as I can, so this scenario was a more frequent form of yellow trap for me then lagging lefts (nearly all the signals near me now have been upgraded to FYA).

If there were cars in the opposing left turn lane, waiting for traffic to clear (coming from your direction), and it flips on the green arrow for them with cars still approaching, that's classic yellow trap. Such phasing should only be allowed if there was no one coming (which isn't the case in your example, because the cars waiting would have already turned if there were no approaching cars).

Oh, and BTW: your example still requires a 5-section signal to operate, hence my point that yellow trap is only possible with 5-section signals.
I was agreeing with you, disagreeing with the lagging left is required for a yellow trap. As I said, it has been mostly solved here as most have been upgraded to FYA.

There are also a few vehicles who seemingly won't ever go without an arrow in a protected-permissive light. For example, school buses, for whatever reason seem particularly unlikely to go even if there is no oncoming traffic at all (they also seemingly do not like to turn right on red, it seems they may be trained on these 2 things for whatever reason).

The new form of "FYA" trap that seems to be occurring around here is a large set of drivers seem to not understand the FYA combined with a red ball in their direction. If the FYA is flashing and there is a red ball, and clear as day no oncoming traffic at all, they just will not turn at all until they get a green ball WITH a FYA, even if you honk, the person in front of them goes, etc... I think some people think FYA means "the light is broken in this direction". Also, on streets with lagging lefts, certain people who are in the intersection during the classic yellow trap moment and now are facing the FYA with the red ball try to REVERSE behind the line rather then continue to wait during their permissive phase to finish at the end of it. I don't know if these 2 things are occurring everywhere or just in my area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
School busses are prohibited by law from turning right on red.  Not sure why they wouldn't take a permissive left.  Drivers not taking a FYA with a red ball are probably unfamiliar with the idea of a permissive left with straight red.  Quite frankly, it's odd, and goes against everything that ever existed before FYAs appeared.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
Drivers not taking a FYA with a red ball are probably unfamiliar with the idea of a permissive left with straight red.  Quite frankly, it's odd, and goes against everything that ever existed before FYAs appeared.

A permissive phase with a straight red is odd, but having a separate turn signal for the turn lane is not.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on December 05, 2016, 12:51:10 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
Drivers not taking a FYA with a red ball are probably unfamiliar with the idea of a permissive left with straight red.  Quite frankly, it's odd, and goes against everything that ever existed before FYAs appeared.

A permissive phase with a straight red is odd, but having a separate turn signal for the turn lane is not.

And this is the point of the FYA - to try to focus drivers on looking at the FYA signal only and to ignore what parallel same direction traffic is doing.  A person making a left turn should only care about what opposite direction traffic is doing.

But this may be easier said than done.  I know that I am inclined to presume that opposing traffic will stop if parallel traffic has a red light.  Hence, the "perceived" yellow trap, even with the presence of a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 05, 2016, 04:34:22 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 03:45:10 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.

Well, yeah. My point is that, without the doghouse, lead/lag phasing would never have been possible. The introduction of the doghouse led to lead/lag phasing.

Lead/lag phasing is not dependent upon a doghouse. Lead/lag phasing is used all the time at protected-only signals (and was likely used in protected-only applications long before being used at a PPLT), especially where intersection geometry doesn't permit simultaneous left turns or where an arterial corridor is programmed for bi-directional signal coordination.


Quote from: UCFKnights on December 04, 2016, 04:23:54 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.
Not necessarily true. Many lights are programmed phase skipping combined with a delay or minimum number of vehicles in the permissive turn lane for it to get a protected signal. During off peak hours, this can (and for me at certain intersections, frequently has) led to the yellow trap.

In more details if you don't follow: Suppose I am traveling down a road and am making the next left turn. At this intersection, the sidestreets have no vehicles at all, so the phases associated with them will be skipped. The opposing left turn lane has a queue of 5 cars trying to make a left. I approach to make the left turn, and after 2 seconds, the signal gives my direction's straight movement a red ball, while the opposing direction remains with a green ball and gets its green arrow as I was not in the lane long enough to register and cause my lane to get a protected arrow. I would be in the yellow trap state, but get the green ball back after the opposing protected phase has ended. Obviously, in this scenario, with the FYA instead of doghouse, my light would remain in its FYA state so I would know not to try to clear the intersection. The lagging phases are rare around here, and I try to drive during off hours as much as I can, so this scenario was a more frequent form of yellow trap for me then lagging lefts (nearly all the signals near me now have been upgraded to FYA).
.

The scenario you're describing sounds like it would be either a dual lead or dual lag. This would result in the yellow trap under a specific set of circumstances, namely all side street phases skipped and you arriving at a specific point in the cycle that ends up being too late to activate your protected turn phase. (Note that if your direction got a protected left immediately after the opposing protected left ended, it would be a lead-lag phasing.)

But agreed overall that FYA would eliminate the yellow trap caused by all these phase skip scenarios.

Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 04:36:59 PM
If there were cars in the opposing left turn lane, waiting for traffic to clear (coming from your direction), and it flips on the green arrow for them with cars still approaching, that's classic yellow trap. Such phasing should only be allowed if there was no one coming (which isn't the case in your example, because the cars waiting would have already turned if there were no approaching cars).

Oh, and BTW: your example still requires a 5-section signal to operate, hence my point that yellow trap is only possible with 5-section signals.

I don't think this is yellow trap, at least not for the opposing left. Say you're northbound and the opposing left is southbound. As you describe it, the southbound left gets the protected green, so by definition it's not a yellow trap. The yellow trap occurs for the northbound left.

Yellow trap can be possible without a 5-section signal, but it would be an unusual set of circumstances. For example, a westbound road has a short left turn lane into a small alley or business driveway that typically receives minimal traffic and thus has no dedicated left turn signal (thus controlled by the adjacent through signal with left turns yielding on green ball). The same road eastbound has a dedicated left turn movement onto another street. If the eastbound left turn is a lagging left, a yellow trap can result for the westbound left. Again, an unusual set of circumstances, but not impossible...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 05, 2016, 01:56:05 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 05, 2016, 04:34:22 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 03:45:10 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 04, 2016, 12:17:57 PM
Correction: Doghouses, combined with lead-lag protected phasing, are the reason that yellow trap exists. The mere existence of a doghouse does not induce yellow trap.

Well, yeah. My point is that, without the doghouse, lead/lag phasing would never have been possible. The introduction of the doghouse led to lead/lag phasing.

Lead/lag phasing is not dependent upon a doghouse. Lead/lag phasing is used all the time at protected-only signals (and was likely used in protected-only applications long before being used at a PPLT), especially where intersection geometry doesn't permit simultaneous left turns or where an arterial corridor is programmed for bi-directional signal coordination.

Yes, I understand this. I was under the impression that the discussion was only about PPLT.

Quote from: roadfro on December 05, 2016, 04:34:22 AM
I don't think this is yellow trap, at least not for the opposing left. Say you're northbound and the opposing left is southbound. As you describe it, the southbound left gets the protected green, so by definition it's not a yellow trap. The yellow trap occurs for the northbound left.

Of course. But, if someone was in the through lane, and decided at the last second to turn left around the same time that the light turned yellow, they might be put into a yellow trap scenario.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on December 05, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
School busses are prohibited by law from turning right on red.  Not sure why they wouldn't take a permissive left.

It isn't illegal everywhere. Not illegal in Wisconsin. I think a school bus is less inclined to take a medium sized gap since they can get up and go while turning fast and squeezing through. They need to turn nice and slow to not dump all the kids on the floor. If oncoming traffic is minimal they should take the turn as normal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on December 05, 2016, 10:21:36 PM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on December 05, 2016, 07:20:19 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
School busses are prohibited by law from turning right on red.  Not sure why they wouldn't take a permissive left.

It isn't illegal everywhere. Not illegal in Wisconsin. I think a school bus is less inclined to take a medium sized gap since they can get up and go while turning fast and squeezing through. They need to turn nice and slow to not dump all the kids on the floor. If oncoming traffic is minimal they should take the turn as normal.

And it's not illegal in Illinois either.  You do; however, see the occasional school bus with a sticker on that back stating that it does not turn right on red.  But that seems to be up to the school district or school bus operator.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ace10 on December 06, 2016, 04:53:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
Drivers not taking a FYA with a red ball are probably unfamiliar with the idea of a permissive left with straight red.  Quite frankly, it's odd, and goes against everything that ever existed before FYAs appeared.

A permissive phase with a straight red is odd, but having a separate turn signal for the turn lane is not.

The same thing may have been said when left turn signals initially came about. Drivers may have thought it felt weird to turn on a green arrow when the parallel through signals were red. Yet, everyone seems to have gotten used to it. Granted with a green arrow, the movement is protected, and oncoming traffic should not be entering the intersection on such a signal, but the fact remains people got used to seeing one signal with a green indication and other signals with a red indication, and knew what to do in such a situation.

Lots of signals here (Portland metro area in Oregon) implement lead/lag phasing depending on traffic, which I think is neat. If left-turning traffic on both sides is queued up, they'll both usually get green arrows, but sometimes one side will get the green arrow while the opposing side gets a flashing yellow. At one particular intersection, there's usually a super long line of cars queued up making left turns, and I'm normally on the other side waiting to turn left. While through traffic sits at a red waiting for the line of opposing left-turning vehicles, I'm able to make my permissive left since opposing through traffic is usually light.

That's why I'm a big fan of the FYA - they allow each movement to be controlled separately, and allow non-conflicting movements to be made permissively if they can be made safely. My left turn shouldn't have to be dependent on what parallel through traffic is doing; the only thing that should concern me is opposing through and right-turning traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on December 06, 2016, 08:38:19 PM
Quote from: Ace10 on December 06, 2016, 04:53:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 04, 2016, 09:30:09 PM
Quote from: vdeane on December 04, 2016, 05:41:39 PM
Drivers not taking a FYA with a red ball are probably unfamiliar with the idea of a permissive left with straight red.  Quite frankly, it's odd, and goes against everything that ever existed before FYAs appeared.

A permissive phase with a straight red is odd, but having a separate turn signal for the turn lane is not.

The same thing may have been said when left turn signals initially came about. Drivers may have thought it felt weird to turn on a green arrow when the parallel through signals were red. Yet, everyone seems to have gotten used to it. Granted with a green arrow, the movement is protected, and oncoming traffic should not be entering the intersection on such a signal, but the fact remains people got used to seeing one signal with a green indication and other signals with a red indication, and knew what to do in such a situation.

Lots of signals here (Portland metro area in Oregon) implement lead/lag phasing depending on traffic, which I think is neat. If left-turning traffic on both sides is queued up, they'll both usually get green arrows, but sometimes one side will get the green arrow while the opposing side gets a flashing yellow. At one particular intersection, there's usually a super long line of cars queued up making left turns, and I'm normally on the other side waiting to turn left. While through traffic sits at a red waiting for the line of opposing left-turning vehicles, I'm able to make my permissive left since opposing through traffic is usually light.

That's why I'm a big fan of the FYA - they allow each movement to be controlled separately, and allow non-conflicting movements to be made permissively if they can be made safely. My left turn shouldn't have to be dependent on what parallel through traffic is doing; the only thing that should concern me is opposing through and right-turning traffic.
Yup, thats the exact case I was talking about, my neighborhood entrance now is like that, its low traffic, but the opposing street is high traffic. If people go as possible on the FYA and right turns on red, the light barely needs to even have any dedicated phase for us after 9am.

Another question: is any place dynamically switching between FYA and FRA indications? I noticed there is one area (school) where the light is off (blinking) for weekends that was upgraded to a FYA. On the through street, it received flashing yellow balls along with flashing red arrows. During schooldays, it is a green ball with flashing yellow arrows. The FYA indication seems like it should still make sense accompanied with opposing flashing yellow balls, no?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 07, 2016, 02:07:25 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on December 06, 2016, 08:38:19 PM
Another question: is any place dynamically switching between FYA and FRA indications? I noticed there is one area (school) where the light is off (blinking) for weekends that was upgraded to a FYA. On the through street, it received flashing yellow balls along with flashing red arrows. During schooldays, it is a green ball with flashing yellow arrows. The FYA indication seems like it should still make sense accompanied with opposing flashing yellow balls, no?

FYA and FRA, in "stop and go" mode are not interchangeable. FRA in this application means that, according to engineering study/judgement, each car must come to a complete stop before making a permitted left turn. This was introduced at the same time as FYA in the national MUTCD, and is intended for situations on curves or other limited sight distance problems for the left turn lane.

Your scenario here though is describing FRA in "flashing" mode (e.g. low-traffic time where main street gets flashing yellow and side street gets flashing red). In flashing mode, the MUTCD allows an all-arrow display to flash either the yellow arrow or the red arrow while the adjacent through movement flashes circular yellow. (I believe using the red arrow would signify the need for a complete stop.) If it were decided to display the yellow turn arrow during flashing mode operation, the turn signal flashes the arrow normally used for the change interval (steady yellow), not the yellow arrow typically used for permitted lefts (FYA)–the meaning is the same, but the distinction reinforces that the signal is in flash mode.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on January 05, 2017, 04:28:01 PM
Installation number two for Pennsylvania was buried in a construction press release.  It will be in Chester County.

QuoteTo improve travel through the intersection of Route 52 (Lenape Road) and Pocopson Road/West Creek Road, the contractor will work this next month to install a permanent traffic signal. The new signal will include a Flashing Yellow Arrow signal for left turns from Route 52 (Lenape Road) to Pocopson Road/West Chester Road, in addition to the standard red, yellow and green lights. This Flashing Yellow Arrow signal will be the first to operate in the Philadelphia region.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=1000
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Aerobird on January 07, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
So having read through all of this as much as I can without my brain oozing from my ears, and being very, very grateful that - as far as I know - this isn't a thing in Florida, I think I understand the meaning of the FYA, which leads to my question...

How does this signal phase differ from the ordinary green ball phase of a "doghouse" left turn signal head? Because from the explanations and descriptions ("yield to oncoming traffic and pedistrians, opposing traffic has a green"), it really seems like it doesn't.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on January 07, 2017, 06:44:39 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on January 07, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
So having read through all of this as much as I can without my brain oozing from my ears, and being very, very grateful that - as far as I know - this isn't a thing in Florida, I think I understand the meaning of the FYA, which leads to my question...

How does this signal phase differ from the ordinary green ball phase of a "doghouse" left turn signal head? Because from the explanations and descriptions ("yield to oncoming traffic and pedistrians, opposing traffic has a green"), it really seems like it doesn't.
It allows for more variations with permissive left turn signals. For example, the FYA can keep giving a permissive left while through traffic has a red light, or operate as a protected only signal during periods of peak traffic (such as rush hour). A doghouse can do neither of those, without violating the MUTCD and/or having conflicting indications with the through signals.

Also, the FYA is to create a national standard for left turn signals, because even though most places used doghouses or inline-5 signals, some states used different signals, such as Michigan with their flashing red ball left turn signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 07, 2017, 08:33:07 PM
Aerobird, it took me repeated reading of the relevant pages in the MUTCD as well as countless hours on this board to figure out what FYA is really all about. It seems that the real reason for the FYA concept was to solve the problems caused by something called "Dallas Phasing" used in Texas. Briefly described it meant a green-ball over the left-turn lane while red-ball signals were displayed over the thru lanes. The current edition of the Manual (2009) has outlawed this practice and the FYA is the replacement solution which is clearer and not misleading.

Do a Google search for "Dallas Phasing" and you'll find some good info on the practice along with photos.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on January 07, 2017, 09:28:14 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on January 07, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
So having read through all of this as much as I can without my brain oozing from my ears, and being very, very grateful that - as far as I know - this isn't a thing in Florida, I think I understand the meaning of the FYA, which leads to my question...

How does this signal phase differ from the ordinary green ball phase of a "doghouse" left turn signal head? Because from the explanations and descriptions ("yield to oncoming traffic and pedistrians, opposing traffic has a green"), it really seems like it doesn't.
This is a thing in Florida. I haven't seen a doghouse left turn signal installed in several years now, and FYA is in its place. Some areas in Florida are proactively replacing them as well.

Its the same meaning as doghouse, except it prevents the "yellow trap" if the thru signal turns to red to allow opposing lefts to get a protected signal. Dallas phasing was an alternate solution to this same problem this replaces, but it was a problem with the regular doghouses. Also, people sometimes forgot that oncoming traffic has right of way, especially at intersections where one direction doesn't have much traffic, so this makes people more likely to remember that, and also allows the left turn to not be permissive during select situation if necessary (perhaps for a pedestrian walk signal, during school hours, or during peak traffic)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 07, 2017, 10:13:15 PM
The MUTCD still permits doghouses and similar side-by-side signals when used as a "shared signal". That means it controls both the left-turn and thru-traffic and is normally positioned over the lane-line separating the left-turn lane and the left-thru lane. It may not be placed over the left-turn lane as the Manual now prohibits a green-ball directly above such lanes. New York State and Nassau County on Long Island are still installing them as shared signals. I have not yet seen an FYA on Long Island though they may exist.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 10, 2017, 05:26:25 AM
Quote from: Aerobird on January 07, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
So having read through all of this as much as I can without my brain oozing from my ears, and being very, very grateful that - as far as I know - this isn't a thing in Florida, I think I understand the meaning of the FYA, which leads to my question...

How does this signal phase differ from the ordinary green ball phase of a "doghouse" left turn signal head? Because from the explanations and descriptions ("yield to oncoming traffic and pedistrians, opposing traffic has a green"), it really seems like it doesn't.

Is a thing in Florida for sure.  https://goo.gl/maps/b3UaQHYGkw62  This replaced a doghouse that you can still see if you go 'back-in-time' on StreetView.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on January 26, 2017, 11:23:24 AM
Another flashing yellow coming to PA.

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/statuses/824278902386397184
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on January 26, 2017, 04:14:05 PM
Here's a FYA I found in North Dakota.  Idk if anything's been posted out of North Dakota yet.

https://goo.gl/maps/gqrqjR8m5q22
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2017, 07:55:01 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 26, 2017, 04:14:05 PM
Here's a FYA I found in North Dakota.  Idk if anything's been posted out of North Dakota yet.

https://goo.gl/maps/gqrqjR8m5q22

Nice spot. Interesting that Hwy 23 has a four-head FYA, but West Ave has a three-head FYA. Maybe the three-head FYAs operate permissive only? Guess we'll never know :-D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on January 27, 2017, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2017, 07:55:01 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 26, 2017, 04:14:05 PM
Here's a FYA I found in North Dakota.  Idk if anything's been posted out of North Dakota yet.

https://goo.gl/maps/gqrqjR8m5q22

Nice spot. Interesting that Hwy 23 has a four-head FYA, but West Ave has a three-head FYA. Maybe the three-head FYAs operate permissive only? Guess we'll never know :-D

I think you're right.  The sections are red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow.  They might as well just be a standard 3-section head with regular ball indications, where the permissive left turn is implied anyway... :-/ lol
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 27, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 27, 2017, 12:44:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2017, 07:55:01 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on January 26, 2017, 04:14:05 PM
Here's a FYA I found in North Dakota.  Idk if anything's been posted out of North Dakota yet.

https://goo.gl/maps/gqrqjR8m5q22

Nice spot. Interesting that Hwy 23 has a four-head FYA, but West Ave has a three-head FYA. Maybe the three-head FYAs operate permissive only? Guess we'll never know :-D

I think you're right.  The sections are red arrow, yellow arrow, flashing yellow arrow.  They might as well just be a standard 3-section head with regular ball indications, where the permissive left turn is implied anyway... :-/ lol

Could the 3-section heads be using the bi-modal green/FYA setup...?

If not, it looks like they had to use the all-arrow display because the signal head is directly over the turn lane, and regular circular indications can't be over the turn lane anymore if not in a shared signal head
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 27, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Could the 3-section heads be using the bi-modal green/FYA setup...?

Definitely. But why would they use two different types of FYAs? Barring some sort of clearance issue, I don't see why they'd order two different FYA styles for the same intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on January 27, 2017, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 27, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 27, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Could the 3-section heads be using the bi-modal green/FYA setup...?

Definitely. But why would they use two different types of FYAs? Barring some sort of clearance issue, I don't see why they'd order two different FYA styles for the same intersection.

They would use different FYA styles if one turn is permissive only and one is protected/permissive.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 27, 2017, 05:34:44 PM
Quote from: spooky on January 27, 2017, 04:24:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 27, 2017, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 27, 2017, 04:11:23 PM
Could the 3-section heads be using the bi-modal green/FYA setup...?

Definitely. But why would they use two different types of FYAs? Barring some sort of clearance issue, I don't see why they'd order two different FYA styles for the same intersection.

They would use different FYA styles if one turn is permissive only and one is protected/permissive.

Lol did you read what you quoted or...?

Roadfro surmised that the three-head FYAs might be bi-modal, which are strictly for protected/permissive movements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on January 28, 2017, 10:41:19 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on January 26, 2017, 11:23:24 AM
Another flashing yellow coming to PA.

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/statuses/824278902386397184

A bunch of police departments in other parts of PA (plus the PSP) are tweeting out that PennDOT video.  May be more coming soon.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doogie1303 on February 15, 2017, 07:37:26 PM
Anyone from Bremerton, WA on this thread? Saw this two weeks ago while out there, on Kitsap Way in Bremerton, WA at the Winco food market intersection. I encountered a four head FYA signal that was showing a FYA and Red Arrow at the same time. I think this signal might be malfunctioning as the two indications seem opposite, unless there is something called a Permissive/Restrictive movement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on February 15, 2017, 08:49:09 PM
Has to be a malfunction or an improper design. I don't think the Manual allows such a display.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 15, 2017, 10:20:31 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on February 15, 2017, 07:37:26 PM
Anyone from Bremerton, WA on this thread? Saw this two weeks ago while out there, on Kitsap Way in Bremerton, WA at the Winco food market intersection. I encountered a four head FYA signal that was showing a FYA and Red Arrow at the same time. I think this signal might be malfunctioning as the two indications seem opposite, unless there is something called a Permissive/Restrictive movement.

I've made my way through Bremerton on several occasions. But the last time through there, that left turn was a 5-section doghouse. Maybe some growing pains? :-D Definitely a malfunction.

Federal Way (across the Sound from Bremerton) had a malfunctioning FYA the other day, showing both the red and green arrows at the same time. I'll quote this post once I can get a video going.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 16, 2017, 03:52:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 15, 2017, 10:20:31 PM
Quote from: doogie1303 on February 15, 2017, 07:37:26 PM
Anyone from Bremerton, WA on this thread? Saw this two weeks ago while out there, on Kitsap Way in Bremerton, WA at the Winco food market intersection. I encountered a four head FYA signal that was showing a FYA and Red Arrow at the same time. I think this signal might be malfunctioning as the two indications seem opposite, unless there is something called a Permissive/Restrictive movement.

I've made my way through Bremerton on several occasions. But the last time through there, that left turn was a 5-section doghouse. Maybe some growing pains? Definitely a malfunction.

Federal Way (across the Sound from Bremerton) had a malfunctioning FYA the other day, showing both the red and green arrows at the same time. I'll quote this post once I can get a video going.

Here's a video. I originally posted the video on Twitter, but I ended up having to use Youtube. You need to watch in HD.

https://youtu.be/sfKuBzgVsj0
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Aerobird on February 17, 2017, 04:03:32 AM
Given that it was the right turn arrow that was displaying the Red Green Show indication, I'd suspect it was running on signal logic as if it were a doghouse right-turn signal, red for straight/left (programmed assuming a red ball, not arrow) but right turns permitted?

EDIT: Specifically, the indication on the right-turn signal in the third photo in this post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7573.msg171048#msg171048) is what I'm thinking of.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 17, 2017, 11:44:53 AM
Quote from: Aerobird on February 17, 2017, 04:03:32 AM
Given that it was the right turn arrow that was displaying the Red Green Show indication, I'd suspect it was running on signal logic as if it were a doghouse right-turn signal, red for straight/left (programmed assuming a red ball, not arrow) but right turns permitted?

EDIT: Specifically, the indication on the right-turn signal in the third photo in this post (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=7573.msg171048#msg171048) is what I'm thinking of.

You can tell when I get closer to the intersection that both the left and right turn have arrow displays (they display flashing yellow arrows when the pedestrian display is activated). The right turn does run with a filter when the opposite left turn is green, but of course it normally only displays a green arrow. A hiccup in the logic may be responsible. Interesting that the green arrow just disappeared though. No yellow arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Aerobird on February 18, 2017, 08:45:49 PM
Meanwhile, the first FYA I've seen in north-central Florida has appeared as part of the finishing of the US-98/US-319 intersection realignment and reconstruction in Wakulla County. The left-turn signals on 98, which were originally "classic" protective/permissive, are now FYA assemblies - which has led to crowded mast arms as three signal heads are squeezed in where two were originally intended.

(The left-turn arrows on SB 319 and the Wakulla High School exit remain five-head "classic" assemblies, as the directions alternate instead of both being green at once.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jwolfer on February 22, 2017, 10:35:18 PM
Quote from: Aerobird on January 07, 2017, 06:40:28 PM
So having read through all of this as much as I can without my brain oozing from my ears, and being very, very grateful that - as far as I know - this isn't a thing in Florida, I think I understand the meaning of the FYA, which leads to my question...

How does this signal phase differ from the ordinary green ball phase of a "doghouse" left turn signal head? Because from the explanations and descriptions ("yield to oncoming traffic and pedistrians, opposing traffic has a green"), it really seems like it doesn't.
FYA has been around Jacksonville, Gainesville, Orlando and Daytona

LGMS428

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: epzik8 on February 24, 2017, 05:49:27 PM
I saw my first-ever one today in Clearwater, Florida.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: realjd on February 25, 2017, 07:45:56 AM
They've been used here in Brevard for a few years now. They're the standard for any new construction or signal refresh, along with the yellow reflective borders on the backplate around the black signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on March 21, 2017, 08:50:49 PM
Today I saw my first FYA installed by New York State DOT's Region-10 in Long Island's Nassau County. Intersection of NY 25A (Northern Blvd.) and NY 107 (Cedar Swamp Rd.) V-e-r-y  i-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g........
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on March 21, 2017, 08:53:57 PM
NYSDOT Region 1 put up a bunch as part of the US 9 reconstruction in Lake George. Given that several of these intersections used to be permissive-only, the change is welcomed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on March 21, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
So wouldn't ya' know cl94, that I was so intrigued with the flashing yellow arrows that I forgot to note if the new signal heads were green or black. Hard to see them anyway behind the fancy backplates with yellow edge-striping.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on March 22, 2017, 12:16:42 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 21, 2017, 09:19:18 PM
So wouldn't ya' know cl94, that I was so intrigued with the flashing yellow arrows that I forgot to note if the new signal heads were green or black. Hard to see them anyway behind the fancy backplates with yellow edge-striping.

They are black and look very sleek, even though I'm not a huge fan of the backplates. I alsp notice there is still the annoying split phasing on 107

https://goo.gl/maps/LbTekvHjJF92

How do the FYAs on 25a operate? Are they always protected-permissive?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Hmmm..........in the photo, those heads and visors look dark green to me, but I'll take a careful look whenever I travel that way again.

Yes, the Northern Blvd. signals are protected/permissive. Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

Any idea why Rt. 107 is split-phased?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 01:08:04 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

That's normal FYA operation. The MUTCD requires the signal to return to red before going permissive.

Seattle has several FYAs in operation that skip the red phase. No idea why they are programmed to work like this. Here's a video that I made that shows one in use:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on March 23, 2017, 01:34:52 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 01:08:04 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

That's normal FYA operation. The MUTCD requires the signal to return to red before going permissive.

Seattle has several FYAs in operation that skip the red phase. No idea why they are programmed to work like this. Here's a video that I made that shows one in use:

Is there a minimum length for the red? I've seen a few here in Des Moines that can't be more than two seconds long.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on March 23, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 23, 2017, 01:34:52 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 01:08:04 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

That's normal FYA operation. The MUTCD requires the signal to return to red before going permissive.

Seattle has several FYAs in operation that skip the red phase. No idea why they are programmed to work like this. Here's a video that I made that shows one in use:

Is there a minimum length for the red? I've seen a few here in Des Moines that can't be more than two seconds long.

The MUTCD doesn't specifically require the use of a red clearance interval.  There's only guidance that says "the yellow change interval should be followed by a red clearance interval to provide additional time before conflicting traffic movements, including pedestrians, are released".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on March 23, 2017, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on March 23, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on March 23, 2017, 01:34:52 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 01:08:04 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM
Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

That's normal FYA operation. The MUTCD requires the signal to return to red before going permissive.

Seattle has several FYAs in operation that skip the red phase. No idea why they are programmed to work like this. Here's a video that I made that shows one in use:

Is there a minimum length for the red? I've seen a few here in Des Moines that can't be more than two seconds long.

The MUTCD doesn't specifically require the use of a red clearance interval.  There's only guidance that says "the yellow change interval should be followed by a red clearance interval to provide additional time before conflicting traffic movements, including pedestrians, are released".

Here in South Carolina, most drivers disregard the red light when it's going permissive. A cop could rack up red light violations easy.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 12:16:27 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on March 23, 2017, 07:36:20 AM
The MUTCD doesn't specifically require the use of a red clearance interval.  There's only guidance that says "the yellow change interval should be followed by a red clearance interval to provide additional time before conflicting traffic movements, including pedestrians, are released".

Thank you for the clarification. I was under the impression that it was a "shall" guidance. That said, even if it was a "shall", local DOTs could still remove the all-red phase (because they don't always follow the MUTCD), correct?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on March 23, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
Hennepin County, MN is trying a new thing where there's a 3 second delay on the start of a permissive only phase before the red arrow turns to flashing yellow. This lets conflicting traffic that has the ROW assert itself and discourages a left turner from stomping on the gas and trying to beat them. Same idea as the red clearance.

Controllers have the option of extending the flashing yellow arrow a couple of seconds after the through movements turn red to allow stuck turners to clear the intersection in a safe manner, but this isn't used, presumably because the additional traffic delays don't justify the safety benefit.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 23, 2017, 04:20:51 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on March 23, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
Controllers have the option of extending the flashing yellow arrow a couple of seconds after the through movements turn red to allow stuck turners to clear the intersection in a safe manner, but this isn't used, presumably because the additional traffic delays don't justify the safety benefit.

That seems like a pretty good idea, but from a driver's perspective, it seems odd to be facing stopped traffic while simultaneously facing a flashing yellow arrow. I'd rather see longer all-red phases. A better idea might be to just lag left turns where there's a flashing yellow arrow. It's not appropriate for all situations, but it seems to work well in most instances that I've seen it used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on March 24, 2017, 12:04:50 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2017, 08:58:52 PM

Yes, the Northern Blvd. signals are protected/permissive. Interestingly, after the green arrow, it goes to steady-yellow-arrow, then steady-red-arrow, then FYA. I don't quite get why it just can't go from green-arrow to FYA.

Any idea why Rt. 107 is split-phased?

So no protected-only phasing during certain times like rush hour? It operates just like the old signals?

Quote from: Mdcastle on March 23, 2017, 03:09:30 PM
Hennepin County, MN is trying a new thing where there's a 3 second delay on the start of a permissive only phase before the red arrow turns to flashing yellow. This lets conflicting traffic that has the ROW assert itself and discourages a left turner from stomping on the gas and trying to beat them. Same idea as the red clearance.


That is a good idea when there is heavy traffic, though with a red clearance interval of about 2 seconds between the left turners and opposing thru traffic, maybe the delay should be more like 5 to 7 seconds, less when opposing thru traffic is not present.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on March 24, 2017, 12:22:11 AM
NY 107 is split-phased because of the straight/left lane NB (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.8247931,-73.5882691,3a,60y,288.1h,74.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s08-W47Ouo5YGFunxJJGuVg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). Can't have a dual left with one of those lefts being in an option lane unless you have split-phasing.

WB Northern Blvd used to be permissive-only, so it does NOT operate like the old signals. That being said, NYSDOT is moving toward FYAs for all PPLT situations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PColumbus73 on March 24, 2017, 08:21:36 AM
In North Carolina, I've been seeing NCDOT using the FYA to replace the right turn doghouse. In the Wilmington area, the 3-section FYA seems to be popping up for right turn movements. In the Fayetteville area, I've seen the 4-section FYA used at dual right turn lanes on GSV.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on April 01, 2017, 08:03:53 AM
Guess Georgia likes to use the doghouse for the flashing yellow.  Saw this on a video about the I-85 bridge collapse.  Jump to the 1m 30s mark to see it.

https://youtu.be/w8t7OrIJG48?t=1m30s
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on April 01, 2017, 09:04:32 PM
First flashing yellow doghouse I've seen in Georgia. Might be an Atlanta thing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 01, 2017, 09:11:39 PM
We have known about NYCDOT's FYAs for a while now, but I saw a new variation today: a flashing slanted yellow arrow (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7411396,-73.9022341,3a,42.8y,102.26h,86.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRaHp-asEd53Qzbg0imiP2Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 01, 2017, 09:39:58 PM
The photo in the link is Queens Blvd. eastbound at about 64th St, just before the B-Q Expwy (I-278) Apparently NYC has found some interesting applications for the FYA, besides the usual left-turn scenario. In Manhattan, at 7th Ave. and 31st St. (right outside Penn Station) it's used to warn right-turning vehicles to watch the pedestrians in the crosswalk.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 06, 2017, 11:55:43 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 01, 2017, 09:39:58 PM
The photo in the link is Queens Blvd. eastbound at about 64th St, just before the B-Q Expwy (I-278) Apparently NYC has found some interesting applications for the FYA, besides the usual left-turn scenario. In Manhattan, at 7th Ave. and 31st St. (right outside Penn Station) it's used to warn right-turning vehicles to watch the pedestrians in the crosswalk.

That particular signal has been there for about a year, it protects the signallized bike lane.

There is an exact copy of that set up a couple of miles down the road by Woodhaven blvd.

A lot of FYA setups have popped up over the past few years in NYC. In addition to warming for a crosswalk or bike lane, they give a head start to peds or bike by holding turning traffic for a few seconds after thru traffic gets a green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: steviep24 on April 09, 2017, 06:03:23 PM
In Rochester, NY NYSDOT Region 4 installed new signals at NY252 (Jefferson Rd.) and Brighton-Henrietta TL Rd. which features a FYA right turn signal in addition to left turn FYA's. R4 has already installed several left turn FYA's but this is the first right turn FYA I've seen.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 09, 2017, 11:01:41 PM
Is that the first flashing yellow arrow doghouse spotted outside Minnesota and Wisconsin? Looks like no exclusive turn lanes are provided, hence the use.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on April 10, 2017, 12:13:55 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 01, 2017, 08:03:53 AM
Guess Georgia likes to use the doghouse for the flashing yellow.  Saw this on a video about the I-85 bridge collapse.  Jump to the 1m 30s mark to see it.

https://youtu.be/w8t7OrIJG48?t=1m30s

So there's no green arrow in that doghouse at all? What about a protected turn?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 12:20:17 PM
A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on April 10, 2017, 12:36:03 PM
Quote from: plain on April 10, 2017, 12:13:55 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on April 01, 2017, 08:03:53 AM
Guess Georgia likes to use the doghouse for the flashing yellow.  Saw this on a video about the I-85 bridge collapse.  Jump to the 1m 30s mark to see it.

https://youtu.be/w8t7OrIJG48?t=1m30s

So there's no green arrow in that doghouse at all? What about a protected turn?
There is. The green arrow uses a bimodal LED so it can also do a flashing yellow indication.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 10, 2017, 02:03:59 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 12:20:17 PM
A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.

Are protected only phases even allowed when a dedicated left turn lane is not provided? That's the situation here (3 through lanes, no left turn lane). I've never encountered one. With no protected only phase, no need for a red arrow and you need one signal head to cover both turning and through movements for a lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on April 10, 2017, 04:18:47 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on April 10, 2017, 02:03:59 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 12:20:17 PM
A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.

Are protected only phases even allowed when a dedicated left turn lane is not provided? That's the situation here (3 through lanes, no left turn lane). I've never encountered one. With no protected only phase, no need for a red arrow and you need one signal head to cover both turning and through movements for a lane.

Never seen a red arrow at a setup like that but I have seen a few cases where there's left turn protection when the left lane is an option lane but the protection isn't provided right away. When the signals for that direction turns green, it's only balls. People wanting to turn left has to yield to oncoming traffic first before the green arrow eventually appears. The signal for this option lane is usually 4 bulbs (3 balls + green arrow) or sometimes a doghouse. All signals for traffic originating from that direction (through and turning) then turns to yellow to red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected. If there's no dedicated turn lane, it can be PPLT. Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3296733,-73.6850631,3a,46.6y,277.87h,84.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGDQzdhSTBS2MVxdCufvCWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on April 10, 2017, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected. If there's no dedicated turn lane, it can be PPLT. Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3296733,-73.6850631,3a,46.6y,277.87h,84.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGDQzdhSTBS2MVxdCufvCWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 10, 2017, 07:50:13 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected.

Well, you could go permissive following the protected phase (disregarding DOTs that don't permit this). The only time split phasing is absolutely necessary is when the double lefts overlap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 10, 2017, 07:56:06 PM
Quote from: plain on April 10, 2017, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3296733,-73.6850631,3a,46.6y,277.87h,84.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGDQzdhSTBS2MVxdCufvCWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.

There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (https://goo.gl/sL7117) (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on April 12, 2017, 10:08:59 AM
Technically there is a brief period with the FYA doghouse where the option lane faces a red left turn arrow, however I've seen this issue fixed in other installs by using a doghouse for both the overhead and far left display. The city should have used the 5 stack version of the FYA doghouse for the far left signals at this intersection. https://youtu.be/bPGf-sIBgB0?list=PLdFtjnurhUkBbGxF8LkRNlMu8wpil7IA8 (https://youtu.be/bPGf-sIBgB0?list=PLdFtjnurhUkBbGxF8LkRNlMu8wpil7IA8)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 12, 2017, 05:17:15 PM
The original rationale for doing that was a for a split phase / permissive only setup where the left lane was a left turn only lanes and the right lane was option lane (with a free right next to that) The four-section head applied to the left lane and the doghouse to the right lane. Wisconsin seems to have copypasted that configuration for a 4-lane undivided road; in that situation Mn/DOT will use a second doghouse rather than a four-section.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tonytone on April 12, 2017, 05:33:00 PM
I wish that when nightime hits around 12am certain traffic signals would just blink as a stop sign, less traffic means no need to mess up the flow of a road for one person turning. :clap:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 12, 2017, 06:01:14 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on April 12, 2017, 05:33:00 PM
I wish that when nightime hits around 12am certain traffic signals would just blink as a stop sign, less traffic means no need to mess up the flow of a road for one person turning. :clap:

Those seem to be slowly going by the wayside, with the advent of sensor-based traffic signals.

Federal Way, WA gets around this issue by having a minimum green time for arterial roads. After the side road has finished its phase, the arterial gets a crosswalk signal automatically. From the perspective of a driver, it's nice to know that you don't have to be right on the ass of the car in front of you to prevent the signal from switching directions again, in the event that another car arrives from the side street.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2017, 01:54:49 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 10, 2017, 07:56:06 PM
Quote from: plain on April 10, 2017, 06:23:33 PM
Quote from: cl94 on April 10, 2017, 05:49:09 PM
Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.3296733,-73.6850631,3a,46.6y,277.87h,84.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGDQzdhSTBS2MVxdCufvCWw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.

There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (https://goo.gl/sL7117) (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.

Found another one of these bloody things in Washington, with what appears to be one of the strangest signal setups in history. Far right is straight only and has a permanent green up arrow. Middle lane is an option left/straight, with a standard RYG orb signal. Left lane is left only and features an RYG arrow signal. When the signal is green for all movements, the middle lane displays a green ball (implying yield), but the left lane displays a green arrow, implying protected. Of course, the movement is protected, but WSDOT could have avoided the setup altogether by eliminating the option lane, or by using permissive phasing.

Hwy 101 at Hwy 105 (https://goo.gl/qY7fh4), near Aberdeen, WA

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6tf2U7u.png&hash=91ae31014728d11b29c32a01a8c7fbe0b959e233)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 13, 2017, 03:12:13 PM
How common are three-section FYA setups? I had never seen one until late last year when the Iowa DOT signalized an intersection on IA-415 (SW State St) and SW White Birch Dr/SW Tradition Dr in Ankeny.

(https://i.imgur.com/ILRGw3q.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/ILRGw3q.jpg)

As the picture shows, they're for the left turn lanes on IA-415's cross-streets, and due to the lack of a green arrow, are permissive only. Are these going to be appearing in more and more places where a left-turn lane is needed but not a protected left phase? Or is that not a common configuration?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2017, 04:06:34 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on April 13, 2017, 03:12:13 PM
How common are three-section FYA setups? I had never seen one until late last year when the Iowa DOT signalized an intersection on IA-415 (SW State St) and SW White Birch Dr/SW Tradition Dr in Ankeny.

As the picture shows, they're for the left turn lanes on IA-415's cross-streets, and due to the lack of a green arrow, are permissive only. Are these going to be appearing in more and more places where a left-turn lane is needed but not a protected left phase? Or is that not a common configuration?

They've been steadily popping up across the US for the last several years. There was a thread just recently that goes over three-head FYAs. See it here (https://goo.gl/ofG9ZH).

Are you certain that the signal is permissive-only? Many of the three head signals have a bi-modal green/yellow bottom lens.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 13, 2017, 04:07:45 PM
Yes. It is

RA
YA
FYA

No green at all in there, or if there is, I have never seen it used. The amount of traffic that side street generates doesn't necessitate it, IMO. Furthermore, it doesn't look to me like one of those bimodal lenses, which are fairly common in the Des Moines area, used on what would've once traditionally been a doghouse/five section ball and arrows combination. (They're four-section heads with the standard RYG balls and then a combination green/yellow left arrow on the bottom.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on April 13, 2017, 09:43:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 10, 2017, 07:56:06 PM
There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (https://goo.gl/sL7117) (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.

I can see exactly why that setup is the way it is with that other intersection (and left turn lane) right behind it.


But this.....
Quote
Found another one of these bloody things in Washington, with what appears to be one of the strangest signal setups in history. Far right is straight only and has a permanent green up arrow. Middle lane is an option left/straight, with a standard RYG orb signal. Left lane is left only and features an RYG arrow signal. When the signal is green for all movements, the middle lane displays a green ball (implying yield), but the left lane displays a green arrow, implying protected. Of course, the movement is protected, but WSDOT could have avoided the setup altogether by eliminating the option lane, or by using permissive phasing.

Hwy 101 at Hwy 105 (https://goo.gl/qY7fh4), near Aberdeen, WA

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F6tf2U7u.png&hash=91ae31014728d11b29c32a01a8c7fbe0b959e233)

THIS has got to be the dumbest shit ever. And I hope the traffic coming from that side road isn't allowed to turn left... don't look like it though
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 13, 2017, 10:57:39 PM
Three section permissive-only flashing yellow arrows were allowed briefly in Minnesota, then approval was yanked before any of them were actually installed. Outside Minneapolis and St. Paul which have their own standards, the only installations allowed for left turn lanes generally are four section heads over dedicated turn lanes and the FYA doghouse for option lanes. A three section head is only permitted for protected only movements and then only if some geometric constraint (like overlapping turn lanes or a site distance problem) means it can absolutely never be allowed to operate a permissive phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on April 14, 2017, 08:23:19 AM
Any idea why it was yanked? It seems to me to be a valid solution for low-volume roads that have short cycles.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 14, 2017, 09:05:22 AM
1) Creating constancy for motorists to minimize the number of types of left turn signal configurations they will encounter.

2) They want the ability to make phasing changes by simply reprogramming the signal rather than sending out a bucket truck and changing the heads and stringing new wires.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Quote
Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on April 30, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Quote
Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 30, 2017, 05:52:54 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

The article shows an image and video depicting a double left turn with the FYA, which doesn't appear to have been there previously. Looking at Google Maps/Street View, I didn't see the dual left turns in either (what could be dual lefts appearing to have been marked as a buffer and future turn lane). There are also wider medians at the intersection that are at least a lane's width wide.

If all that is the case, then removing FYA might be the right call for that intersection. I would have concerns with a dual FYA when you also have a wide median. For this intersection, it appears a driver in the outside left turn lane might have to be looking over a distance of 4-5 lanes left to see gaps in the two lanes of opposing through traffic. I would imagine the outside left turn lane could have sight distance issues in seeing gaps when there are multiple cars queued in the opposing turn lanes. That seems like it could be a contributing factor to the crash issues.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 07:03:22 PM
Quote from: roadfro on April 30, 2017, 05:52:54 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

The article shows an image and video depicting a double left turn with the FYA, which doesn't appear to have been there previously. Looking at Google Maps/Street View, I didn't see the dual left turns in either (what could be dual lefts appearing to have been marked as a buffer and future turn lane). There are also wider medians at the intersection that are at least a lane's width wide.

If all that is the case, then removing FYA might be the right call for that intersection. I would have concerns with a dual FYA when you also have a wide median. For this intersection, it appears a driver in the outside left turn lane might have to be looking over a distance of 4-5 lanes left to see gaps in the two lanes of opposing through traffic. I would imagine the outside left turn lane could have sight distance issues in seeing gaps when there are multiple cars queued in the opposing turn lanes. That seems like it could be a contributing factor to the crash issues.

There is a possibility that everything you said is true. Even being a proponent of dual permissive turns, I will concede that they don't work everywhere. But I'm not sure they've been installed long enough to get a realisitic picture of how well they function. A local jurisdiction near me saw an increase in collisions the first year following several FYA installations, but a drop-off after that to lower than pre-FYA collision levels. That's two years worth of data. Fort Worth is going off of a few weeks. That's ridiculous.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 09:16:09 PM
FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 10:08:57 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 09:16:09 PM
FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words! :-D

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 10:23:02 PM
Fightin' words? No problem jakeroot. LOL Plenty of room on this board for healthy differences in traffic management theory. It's all good.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2017, 12:02:48 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 30, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Quote
Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 01, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2017, 12:02:48 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 30, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Quote
Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.

Looking at it myself, I think it's more due to them installing a dual permissive at the same time. With the median, can't see oncoming vehicles. That's why dual permissives are generally not used in most of the country.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 01, 2017, 12:31:30 AM
Quote from: cl94 on May 01, 2017, 12:10:23 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 01, 2017, 12:02:48 AM
Quote from: cl94 on April 30, 2017, 03:29:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 02:48:52 PM
Quote from: US-175 on April 30, 2017, 11:53:35 AM
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Quote
Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

Apparently in the region where this FYA was located, they are very familiar with FYAs.  The cop interviewed said they have worked well elsewhere, but this one particular intersection has had some issues with them.

Looking at GSV, previously it was a doghouse permissive left, so in reality nothing changed.

It could also be an over-reaction to an accident where the FYA really didn't have anything to do with it; but more of a sightline issue or just bad drive judgement.

Looking at it myself, I think it's more due to them installing a dual permissive at the same time. With the median, can't see oncoming vehicles. That's why dual permissives are generally not used in most of the country.

The medians need to be between the left turn and through lanes, not between the left turn and opposite through lanes (as is often the case, and is the case here as well). The visibility from the stop line (where people sometimes wait, like the truck in the Star Telegram video) is much better when the left turns are offset. Most of Tucson's double lefts have a sizeable painted median between the left and through lanes, to ensure good visibility in the event that the oncoming left turn lanes are full of cars.

One thing that I wish this country would do (yet I've only seen it done once), is paint "waiting lines" in the intersection (for both single and double lefts, where applicable). I feel if we painted some sharks teeth out in the middle of the intersection, or wherever visibility is best, people wouldn't blindly wait at the stop line and fly out into the intersection the second they think it's clear. I see that a lot around here (people really don't like waiting in the intersection in western Washington, minus Seattle); the second they think it's clear, they floor it through the intersection. If they had pulled forward, they would have had much better visibility, and nowhere near as much intersection to clear.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 01, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 10:08:57 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 09:16:09 PM
FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words! :-D

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 05, 2017, 06:31:55 AM
Quote from: roadfro on May 01, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 10:08:57 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 09:16:09 PM
FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words! :-D

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).

I could see how the difficulty of negotiating the turn can be a problem.  I (and many others) have a learned (correctly or incorrectly) way of negotiating a permitted left turn (of any type) of advancing to the middle of the intersection and waiting for a gap in traffic before turning and then turning at the end of the cycle (yellow light) if there is no earlier gap.  It becomes difficult to do that in a dual left turn if there aren't any wait lines in the intersection, unless the left turn were a lagging left turn.  (In that case, the gap at the end of the cycle coincides with the protected phase so no problem.)

The one permitted double left that I regularly encounter (at US 29 and NH Ave in Silver Spring discussed in another thread) is at an on-ramp to a type of parclo b4 (not the standard 6 ramp, but a 7 ramp version and this is the only left turn from street to freeway onramp).  There is no full intersection over here and there is no traffic of any kind coming from the right when making the left turn, so advancing to the middle is simply unnecessary.  MD is not Tucson so this situation is very rare, but it works here because of several factors:  FRA left turn where everyone has to stop before turning during the permitted phase, no traffic coming from the right, no opposing left turn, great visibility, low volume of left turns at most hours, except for rush hour.

There is another double left that I used to encounter in Downtown LA at 5th Street and Central - but it was very odd.  Left turn + an option lane to turn left from Central to 5th (one-way only), but in that case the left turn was the favored movement.  No signal and opposing traffic faced a stop sign.  You can see this at old streetview photos of the intersection.  It has since been converted to a standard signal with a dual protected=only left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0415444,-118.2397813,3a,75y,344.17h,82.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZU4D9wspqbsso9PhNOlBIA!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SectorZ on May 11, 2017, 03:54:28 PM
https://goo.gl/maps/dvJR1XLmdU92

This one here had an FYA from the time Massachusetts starting putting them in, but in the past week, it disappeared and is now just a green/yellow/red arrow situation. First FYA I've seen disappear. For 20 years before it was an FYA, it was a standard green arrow to green ball.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on May 11, 2017, 07:38:11 PM
Might have been a little too modern and radical for Massachusetts drivers.  :-D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on May 11, 2017, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 05, 2017, 06:31:55 AM
Quote from: roadfro on May 01, 2017, 04:14:20 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 30, 2017, 10:08:57 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 30, 2017, 09:16:09 PM
FWIW, I think the FYA is ill-advised at locations like this with two left-turn lanes. There is too much potential conflict of movements with two lanes of turning traffic and the judgment required for permissive left-turns. Converting it to green-arrow operation is probably a good idea.

Ooh man, thems' fighting words! :-D

It shouldn't always be black and white when deciding how to phase a double left turn. Sometimes, you need the storage space that you wouldn't have with a single left, but there's still gaps in traffic that would otherwise permit yielding. It's a gigantic trade off when you switch from a single left to a double left, but it doesn't need to be! Tucson and many other places are proof that dual permissive lefts can work. They just need to be built properly.

I would always default to a protected phasing with double-left turns out of abundance of caution (especially knowing how people drive in my state). However, given the right set of geometric and traffic volume factors, I wouldn't be completely against doing a permitted or PPLT setup at a dual left instead.

The conditions you describe in the post above this one (median space/offset turn lanes, and potentially the in-intersection "wait lines") would be contributing factors that would make me more comfortable in considering one.


The only time I've seen a permitted dual left in real life was at Craig Road & US 95 SB ramp in Las Vegas. It surprised me when I first saw it. But thinking about it, it made sense there because there was no opposing left turn and it was on the downhill side of the overpass, so sight distance was great for the situation. This situation has since been removed–I think due to increasing opposing traffic volumes, and possibly due to driver expectation (since dual permissive lefts are rare in the Las Vegas area, some people didn't really know how to negotiate it...).

I could see how the difficulty of negotiating the turn can be a problem.  I (and many others) have a learned (correctly or incorrectly) way of negotiating a permitted left turn (of any type) of advancing to the middle of the intersection and waiting for a gap in traffic before turning and then turning at the end of the cycle (yellow light) if there is no earlier gap.  It becomes difficult to do that in a dual left turn if there aren't any wait lines in the intersection, unless the left turn were a lagging left turn.  (In that case, the gap at the end of the cycle coincides with the protected phase so no problem.)

The one permitted double left that I regularly encounter (at US 29 and NH Ave in Silver Spring discussed in another thread) is at an on-ramp to a type of parclo b4 (not the standard 6 ramp, but a 7 ramp version and this is the only left turn from street to freeway onramp).  There is no full intersection over here and there is no traffic of any kind coming from the right when making the left turn, so advancing to the middle is simply unnecessary.  MD is not Tucson so this situation is very rare, but it works here because of several factors:  FRA left turn where everyone has to stop before turning during the permitted phase, no traffic coming from the right, no opposing left turn, great visibility, low volume of left turns at most hours, except for rush hour.

There is another double left that I used to encounter in Downtown LA at 5th Street and Central - but it was very odd.  Left turn + an option lane to turn left from Central to 5th (one-way only), but in that case the left turn was the favored movement.  No signal and opposing traffic faced a stop sign.  You can see this at old streetview photos of the intersection.  It has since been converted to a standard signal with a dual protected=only left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0415444,-118.2397813,3a,75y,344.17h,82.7t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZU4D9wspqbsso9PhNOlBIA!2e0!5s20140601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Saw this a few minutes ago while playing around on Google Maps...
Not a FYA but dual doghouses instead, which is just as dumb smdh. And in Alabama no less

https://goo.gl/maps/GVH14jWSgRt
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 11, 2017, 09:50:31 PM
I've seen a few double doghouses in my travels. Can't remember where in New York for the life of me, as permissive double lefts are basically unheard of in NY and they'll usually only give one right turn arrow even if there are 2 lanes. In the case of split-phasing where there are double turn lanes, there is usually at least one all-arrow face. However, there are a ton of twin four-head left turn signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7430964,-73.6145463,3a,75y,352.9h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFzO9mfhLicG6hWmbyqweMw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) on Long Island.

There are a few double doghouses around Columbus, Ohio, such as this one at Easton (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0482546,-82.9083067,3a,36.1y,282.88h,84.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sOzpmb0BZVGTy2GMGnPVgmA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DOzpmb0BZVGTy2GMGnPVgmA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D47.68642%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656). Until the FYA, Ohio only used doghouses for protected-permissive movements, so this was the only option if there was to be the possibility of an arrow for each lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on May 11, 2017, 10:21:27 PM
That double left-arrow 4-stack in the above link is coming out of the Roosevelt Field Mall onto Old Country Rd. in Carle Place. BTW, as you can see Old Country Rd. is about 8 lanes wide in that area. LOL We've come a long way on Long Island. Also in that photo there are new poles and wires in place for new signals about to be installed. There was a recent complete rebuilding of many signals along Old Country Rd. in the Carle Place-Westbury area.

Another interesting Long Island intersection is in Syosset at South Oyster Bay Rd. and the north service rd. of the L.I. Expwy. (I-495) where northbound there is a double "side-by-side" which is an alternative to the traditional doghouse.

The signals at both locations were erected by the Nassau County DPW.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 11, 2017, 10:43:55 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on May 11, 2017, 10:21:27 PM
That double left-arrow 4-stack in the above link is coming out of the Roosevelt Field Mall onto Old Country Rd. in Carle Place. BTW, as you can see Old Country Rd. is about 8 lanes wide in that area. LOL We've come a long way on Long Island. Also in that photo there are new poles and wires in place for new signals about to be installed. There was a recent complete rebuilding of many signals along Old Country Rd. in the Carle Place-Westbury area.

Another interesting Long Island intersection is in Syosset at South Oyster Bay Rd. and the north service rd. of the L.I. Expwy. (I-495) where northbound there is a double "side-by-side" which is an alternative to the traditional doghouse.

The signals at both locations were erected by the Nassau County DPW.

I knew I had seen a double side-by-side somewhere on the Island. Couldn't remember where.

But looking at GSV from a few weeks later, the new signals on Old Country Rd are exactly like the old ones, except the 5-stacks are now side-by-sides. Why Region 10 and NCDPW love those side-by-sides so much is beyond me - they're not used anywhere else in the country that I've seen.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on May 12, 2017, 09:51:33 PM
Cl94, as a Long Island resident, I kind of like the side-by-side arrangement 'cause it's visually logical and intuitive. But there was nothing wrong with 4 and 5-stacks either. I don't know specifically why NCDPW has converted them.

But I can tell you Nassau County has also done some other strange things on this Old Country Rd. project. Like only installing 2 heads in each direction at most locations in Westbury, unlike every other project in recent years where they've had 3 heads for each approach on four-lane sections of county roads.   They also still use mostly 8-inch heads for the intersecting roads, instead of just using all 12-inch heads in new installations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on May 12, 2017, 11:42:01 PM
A triple side by side on LI, southbound Indian Head Rd (Suffolk CR14) at Jericho Tpk (NY25)

https://goo.gl/maps/8Pqd5FRBoCS2

This approach is one left turn lane, one thru lane, and 2 right turn lanes.

The signal setup was recently replaced but nearly identical to the old one.

The 2 signals on the right could have been FYAs with an additional thru signal. In fact the NY25 approaches would do well with FYAs there due to the geometry and signal sequence.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 12, 2017, 11:54:55 PM
There are a couple locations with side by side doghouses in St. Louis, Missouri:

* Eastbound Landsdowne Avenue at Wabash Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.5919738,-90.3165043,3a,75y,102.68h,73.82t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDl12ODUnrynfSGQTChdQhA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)

* Northbound Skinker Boulevard at Forest Park Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6492647,-90.3006577,3a,75y,18.92h,89.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_RqI6XVEiEqqnS4BK6mVFw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 12, 2017, 11:56:22 PM
Is there a difference between "side by side" and "doghouse"? I see that, in most NY arrangements, the red is above the other two orbs (versus the typical doghouse arrangement with the red centred above the orbs and arrows). I primarily see this setup in other areas of the Northeast and in Colo (https://goo.gl/FiLTBp)rado (https://goo.gl/URKGrG).

In other words, are the terms differentiated by the placement of the red orb?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 13, 2017, 12:09:32 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 12, 2017, 11:56:22 PM
Is there a difference between "side by side" and "doghouse"? I see that, in most NY arrangements, the red is above the other two orbs (versus the typical doghouse arrangement with the red centred above the orbs and arrows). I primarily see this setup in other areas of the Northeast and in Colo (https://goo.gl/FiLTBp)rado (https://goo.gl/URKGrG).

In other words, are the terms differentiated by the placement of the red orb?

Yes. Most of the country (including most of New York and the rest of the northeast, for that matter) uses the "standard" doghouse. The "side by side" is the one with the red ball over the other balls instead of centered. That's the setup on Long Island and in Colorado.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: signalman on May 13, 2017, 12:24:40 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 13, 2017, 12:09:32 AM

The "side by side" is the one with the red ball over the other balls instead of centered. That's the setup on Long Island and in Colorado.
West Virginia belongs on that list as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on May 13, 2017, 04:38:18 PM
Between the two, I prefer the S-B-S. It's neater looking, and more logical. On the other hand, I like traditional 4 and 5 stack heads too and prefer them in some installations, especially post or pole mounted heads.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on May 27, 2017, 11:17:24 AM
In UT, they only use the one with the red ball centered. That's the one I prefer because I'm used to it and there's something about the asymetrical design of the side by side version that annoys me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wxfree on June 22, 2017, 11:33:19 PM
Today I drove into Fort Worth and found that FYA signals are being used without the sign.  The FYA is now familiar, and is so intuitive that at least one big city no longer thinks it needs to be explained.  I never saw the older, left turn yield on green, signals unsigned.  I agree that the new arrangement is more intuitive.  It'll be interesting to note whether other places start unsigning them.

For reference, I noticed this on city streets.  I didn't notice whether the TxDOT roads were the same.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 22, 2017, 11:40:27 PM
^^^
In my area, most agencies still utilise the "YIELD ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW" sign. Some even use the modified "RIGHT TURN YIELD TO PEDESTRIANS ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW".

Three agencies in my area do not utilise the white guidance sign. Seattle, Tacoma, and Pierce County. Maybe others that I haven't taken notice of.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 22, 2017, 11:51:56 PM
NYC doesn't sign flashing yellow arrows. Granted most FYAs in NYC are not of the 4 light kind, but are the 3 light permissive kind used in tandem with bike lanes or LPIs or turns with ped conflicts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 22, 2017, 11:51:56 PM
NYC doesn't sign flashing yellow arrows. Granted most FYAs in NYC are not of the 4 light kind, but are the 3 light permissive kind used in tandem with bike lanes or LPIs or turns with ped conflicts.

Are there any FYAs in NYC that are used in the more traditional sense as a permissive turn against opposing vehicular traffic?  In most areas of the city that I transverse those types of signals are handled with doghouses.  I would imagine that a traditional FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 30, 2017, 07:36:38 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 22, 2017, 11:51:56 PM
NYC doesn't sign flashing yellow arrows. Granted most FYAs in NYC are not of the 4 light kind, but are the 3 light permissive kind used in tandem with bike lanes or LPIs or turns with ped conflicts.

Are there any FYAs in NYC that are used in the more traditional sense as a permissive turn against opposing vehicular traffic?  In most areas of the city that I transverse those types of signals are handled with doghouses.  I would imagine that a traditional FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.

A recent installation, but 57th St eastbound at the Queensboro Bridge upper level ramp was converted to such an operation. It has no sign.

It was previously protected only.

The one that hangs from the mast is not a 4 stack FYA, but has the green and fllashing yellow arrow side by side left to right, with the solid yellow and red arrows above the flashing arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 30, 2017, 10:46:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
I would imagine that a traditional [NYC] FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.

Which reminds me. In the vast majority of jurisdictions, a flashing yellow arrow indicates that you must yield to vehicles (in addition to peds and bikes, but mostly cars). In NYC, thus far, it has been entirely reserved for situations in which you must yield to a bike or pedestrian. I can't help but think that it might lose its special meaning if applied to left turns across traffic, etc.

That said, I don't see 5-section PPLTs continuing to be a part of a traffic engineer's toolbox. FYAs have a clear upperhand in terms of their ability to handle just about any type of phase you want to throw at it (lead, lag, protected-only TOD, etc). 5-section signals still have a place (leading left at option lanes, right turn filters, etc) but I suspect most left turn 5-section signals will eventually convert to FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on July 01, 2017, 01:22:28 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2017, 10:46:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
I would imagine that a traditional [NYC] FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.

Which reminds me. In the vast majority of jurisdictions, a flashing yellow arrow indicates that you must yield to vehicles (in addition to peds and bikes, but mostly cars). In NYC, thus far, it has been entirely reserved for situations in which you must yield to a bike or pedestrian. I can't help but think that it might lose its special meaning if applied to left turns across traffic, etc.

I have seen FYA used for only bike/ped yield purposes on a right turn, but never a left. Left FYAs, where I've seen them, are always for crossing oncoming traffic.

Also, when I was in St. Louis recently I saw a doghouse with a sign that said "left on arrow only" which was quite odd to me. How does this work?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 01, 2017, 01:27:49 AM
Quote from: roadguy2 on July 01, 2017, 01:22:28 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2017, 10:46:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
I would imagine that a traditional [NYC] FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.

Which reminds me. In the vast majority of jurisdictions, a flashing yellow arrow indicates that you must yield to vehicles (in addition to peds and bikes, but mostly cars). In NYC, thus far, it has been entirely reserved for situations in which you must yield to a bike or pedestrian. I can't help but think that it might lose its special meaning if applied to left turns across traffic, etc.

I have seen FYA used for only bike/ped yield purposes on a right turn, but never a left. Left FYAs, where I've seen them, are always for crossing oncoming traffic.

Well, in theory, a left-facing FYA indicates that you must yield to cars, but also to peds with a walk sign, and any bikes that might be utilising a crosswalk or a lane of traffic.

Quote from: roadguy2 on July 01, 2017, 01:22:28 AM
Also, when I was in St. Louis recently I saw a doghouse with a sign that said "left on arrow only" which was quite odd to me. How does this work?

This was actually just discussed in another thread. Check it out: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=20530.msg2236981#msg2236981

tl;dr -- the signals aren't MUTCD compliant, and you have to wait for the next green arrow, as the signal suggests. There's quite a few of these in Chicago as well. Yes, they're misleading.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on July 01, 2017, 02:23:00 AM
I know Huntsville only uses the 3-section FYAs in downtown where one road goes from two-way to one-way, and the traffic heading against the one-way has to turn onto another one-way. Here are the ones in use:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7320197,-86.5874333,3a,15y,72.97h,96.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbsnAWlQpkPAQcZq2rIO2Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7304121,-86.585882,3a,41.2y,48.17h,111.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDSFAhHhAWawCKn2xu9kquA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.729626,-86.5852755,3a,16.5y,293.85h,111.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIWUMHXmZafuNgo1gvIbAYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7306241,-86.5832226,3a,22.6y,242.45h,107.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saOjnV1ipCsf_A5iZfLll7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The reason those signals got the FYA treatment, according to the director of the Traffic Engineering Department, Dan Sanders, is that back when they had green balls, people could see the green balls and think they could go straight and/or left/right even though they couldn't, and installing green arrows would've conflicted with the pedestrian signals (which cycle with the signals). So the FYA signals were the only way to go. I do agree with him as well, as at the intersection of West Side Square and South Side Square, I once saw a person head straight up West Side Square from Madison Street, against the flow of traffic. And that was before the FYA conversion of the signals, IIRC. I got it on video as well.

There used to be another set at Clinton Avenue and Greene Street, but those were changed back to RYG signals after Clinton Avenue got entirely converted back to 2-way through the downtown. Google Street View still shows them though:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7323536,-86.5845136,3a,26.8y,253.13h,105.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTlQwjILLKHpLRbW17yEhSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
Just came across a Left FYA on US-160 East near Pagosa Springs with a NO TURN ON RED sign.  That one seemed weird.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on July 01, 2017, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
Just came across a Left FYA on US-160 East near Pagosa Springs with a NO TURN ON RED sign.  That one seemed weird.

Do you remember exactly where this light is?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 09:04:57 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on July 01, 2017, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
Just came across a Left FYA on US-160 East near Pagosa Springs with a NO TURN ON RED sign.  That one seemed weird.

Do you remember exactly where this light is?

It's on EB US-160 between Durango and  Pagosa Springs.  I went through  there yesterday, and I didn't really take note of the location, but when I hit this thread, the fresh memory cam back to mind.

To make it easier, im pretty sure it was either along the US-160/US-550 multiplex just outside Durango or on the far west edge of Pagosa on US-160.  The NTOR sign was immediately to the right of the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on July 01, 2017, 11:18:28 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 09:04:57 PM
Quote from: roadguy2 on July 01, 2017, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on July 01, 2017, 03:36:01 PM
Just came across a Left FYA on US-160 East near Pagosa Springs with a NO TURN ON RED sign.  That one seemed weird.

Do you remember exactly where this light is?

It's on EB US-160 between Durango and  Pagosa Springs.  I went through  there yesterday, and I didn't really take note of the location, but when I hit this thread, the fresh memory cam back to mind.

To make it easier, im pretty sure it was either along the US-160/US-550 multiplex just outside Durango or on the far west edge of Pagosa on US-160.  The NTOR sign was immediately to the right of the FYA.

I found it, at US 160/550 and Dominguez Dr south of Durango.
I have no idea why that sign is there. It wouldn't even apply to the right turn, since the right turn movements are channelized.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 01, 2017, 11:35:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2017, 10:46:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 30, 2017, 04:14:00 PM
I would imagine that a traditional [NYC] FYA would have a sign, because it seems ingrained in NYC that the flashing yellow arrow means to watch for bikes and peds.

Which reminds me. In the vast majority of jurisdictions, a flashing yellow arrow indicates that you must yield to vehicles (in addition to peds and bikes, but mostly cars). In NYC, thus far, it has been entirely reserved for situations in which you must yield to a bike or pedestrian. I can't help but think that it might lose its special meaning if applied to left turns across traffic, etc.


Aside from my post above, a good number of FYAs both left and right in NYC are used for something called a split Leading Pedestrian Interval (LPI).

This means when the light turns green, thru traffic gets a green, but turning traffic is held with a red arrrow for up to 7 seconds, while the adjacent bike lane or crosswalk gets their go signal. After that, the FYA is displayed to turning traffic.

This application was not possible before FYAs without first holding all traffic.

Drivers here generally understand the meaning, I do not think FYAs will be watered down the way NYC uses them once they are more commonplace in NYS/NJ/CT
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 01, 2017, 11:39:41 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on July 01, 2017, 02:23:00 AM
I know Huntsville only uses the 3-section FYAs in downtown where one road goes from two-way to one-way, and the traffic heading against the one-way has to turn onto another one-way. Here are the ones in use:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7320197,-86.5874333,3a,15y,72.97h,96.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbsnAWlQpkPAQcZq2rIO2Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7304121,-86.585882,3a,41.2y,48.17h,111.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDSFAhHhAWawCKn2xu9kquA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.729626,-86.5852755,3a,16.5y,293.85h,111.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIWUMHXmZafuNgo1gvIbAYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7306241,-86.5832226,3a,22.6y,242.45h,107.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saOjnV1ipCsf_A5iZfLll7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The reason those signals got the FYA treatment, according to the director of the Traffic Engineering Department, Dan Sanders, is that back when they had green balls, people could see the green balls and think they could go straight and/or left/right even though they couldn't, and installing green arrows would've conflicted with the pedestrian signals (which cycle with the signals). So the FYA signals were the only way to go. I do agree with him as well, as at the intersection of West Side Square and South Side Square, I once saw a person head straight up West Side Square from Madison Street, against the flow of traffic. And that was before the FYA conversion of the signals, IIRC. I got it on video as well.

There used to be another set at Clinton Avenue and Greene Street, but those were changed back to RYG signals after Clinton Avenue got entirely converted back to 2-way through the downtown. Google Street View still shows them though:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7323536,-86.5845136,3a,26.8y,253.13h,105.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTlQwjILLKHpLRbW17yEhSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Do the signals in the 3rd link alternately flash instead of flashing together? Or is the left one just not working?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on July 02, 2017, 12:35:20 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 01, 2017, 11:39:41 PM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on July 01, 2017, 02:23:00 AM
I know Huntsville only uses the 3-section FYAs in downtown where one road goes from two-way to one-way, and the traffic heading against the one-way has to turn onto another one-way. Here are the ones in use:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7320197,-86.5874333,3a,15y,72.97h,96.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbsnAWlQpkPAQcZq2rIO2Mg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7304121,-86.585882,3a,41.2y,48.17h,111.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDSFAhHhAWawCKn2xu9kquA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.729626,-86.5852755,3a,16.5y,293.85h,111.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIWUMHXmZafuNgo1gvIbAYw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7306241,-86.5832226,3a,22.6y,242.45h,107.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1saOjnV1ipCsf_A5iZfLll7g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The reason those signals got the FYA treatment, according to the director of the Traffic Engineering Department, Dan Sanders, is that back when they had green balls, people could see the green balls and think they could go straight and/or left/right even though they couldn't, and installing green arrows would've conflicted with the pedestrian signals (which cycle with the signals). So the FYA signals were the only way to go. I do agree with him as well, as at the intersection of West Side Square and South Side Square, I once saw a person head straight up West Side Square from Madison Street, against the flow of traffic. And that was before the FYA conversion of the signals, IIRC. I got it on video as well.

There used to be another set at Clinton Avenue and Greene Street, but those were changed back to RYG signals after Clinton Avenue got entirely converted back to 2-way through the downtown. Google Street View still shows them though:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.7323536,-86.5845136,3a,26.8y,253.13h,105.52t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sTlQwjILLKHpLRbW17yEhSg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Do the signals in the 4th link alternately flash instead of flashing together? Or is the left one just not working?
FTFY. They flash together. Likely one signal was taken with an image when the arrow was off and the other was taken with an image when the arrow was on, just micro-seconds apart.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JKRhodes on July 08, 2017, 09:57:01 AM
The FYA for left turns has gained a considerable amount of usage in Tucson. Problem is, the FYA was in use prior to its most recent iteration, so it takes on several slightly different meanings depending on the application:

FYA, Left Turn, 4 signal Head: Yield to Oncoming Traffic, as many cities are now implementing

FYA, Left Turn, 5 Signal Head or 3 Signal Head: Proceed, Yield to Pedestrians, Tucson's had this one in place for years

FYA, Right Turn, 5 Signal Head: Cross Street has a green arrow to turn left or Make U-Turns. Yield to U-turns. this has also been going on some 20 years.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on July 08, 2017, 01:18:44 PM
An example of a right turn FYA. This is in Norfolk, Va

https://goo.gl/maps/weCxGD57tBo

Obviously it's because of the Tide LRT running next to Brambleton Ave (US 58/VA 337). Virginia is a state that enforces a no turn on a red arrow, but as an extra measure there is a "No Turn On Red" sign that lights up when a train is about to cross the street
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 09, 2017, 12:08:12 PM
Quote from: plain on July 08, 2017, 01:18:44 PM
An example of a right turn FYA. This is in Norfolk, Va

https://goo.gl/maps/weCxGD57tBo

Given how far the crosswalk is from the start of the right turn, and that it is a bit unexpected on the other side of the track, I would think they'd want more signage marking the crosswalk - at least a 'turning vehicles yield to peds' next to the right turn head on the mast arm.  There was an intersection in northeastern Illinois that recently went to right on green arrow only due to issues with the crosswalk being quite a ways from the start of the turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 09, 2017, 08:28:46 PM
A five-section left-facing flashing yellow arrow has popped up in Federal Way, WA. While the opposing through movements overlap, the left turns don't. When the pedestrian signal is activated, both directions show red orbs with left-facing flashing yellow arrows (so left turns can go, but through must wait -- right on red is okay). When the pedestrian signal is not activated, or when the pedestrian phase has ended but one of the directions still has a line of cars, the green orb and green arrow come on simultaneously. The signal runs split-phased when the flashing yellow arrow is deactivated.

From top to bottom, the signals are red orb, yellow orb, green orb, yellow arrow, bi-modal green/yellow arrow.

https://youtu.be/jEVhAABx0q4
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on July 10, 2017, 12:50:50 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 09, 2017, 08:28:46 PM
From top to bottom, the signals are green orb, yellow orb, red orb, yellow arrow, bi-modal green/yellow arrow.

https://youtu.be/jEVhAABx0q4

I assume you meant red orb, yellow orb, green orb, yellow arrow, bi-modal green/yellow arrow?

That's a very interesting design. Never seen anything like it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2017, 12:56:42 AM
Quote from: roadguy2 on July 10, 2017, 12:50:50 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 09, 2017, 08:28:46 PM
From top to bottom, the signals are green orb, yellow orb, red orb, yellow arrow, bi-modal green/yellow arrow.

I assume you meant red orb, yellow orb, green orb, yellow arrow, bi-modal green/yellow arrow?

That's a very interesting design. Never seen anything like it.

Yes, thank you.

It's a very unique signal. I've seen signals with similar operation in the midwest (in this thread, I believe) of 5-section FYAs, but I've never seen one utilised quite this way before.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 10, 2017, 03:32:25 PM
^^ I'm trying to understand the purpose of holding the through traffic but allowing permitted left turns during the conflicting walk phase... If the intersection is split phased, they could just run that crosswalk with the adjacent (opposing) through green instead. There is a slight geometric offset at the intersection, but nothing too crazy (seems like prohibiting RTOR onto SW 312th would better protect peds in the crosswalk).

EDIT: Thinking about this more... I think I get that they're trying to clear left turn traffic during the opposing through phase, so if there's no through movement on this approach then the signal need not run the second half of the split. So it's actually pretty clever. However, it looks like there are no dedicated turn lanes on this approach, so use of a FYA is still somewhat bizarre (and is this even allowed by MUTCD?).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NJRoadfan on July 10, 2017, 03:40:12 PM
Came across a new one on US-40 in Maryland yesterday.... a flashing RED arrow. The sign posted next to it stated "LEFT TURN PERMITTED AFTER FULL STOP WHEN FLASHING" or something along those lines. A quick search indicates this signal may have predated the decision to go with a yellow flasher for the same traffic control device.

Youtube to the rescue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2jZ62dLlY
Another one in Delaware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbPka-JUxo
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MCRoads on July 10, 2017, 06:02:48 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on June 18, 2010, 01:14:52 AM
Never seen any in Oklahoma. Norman, in particular, loves its doghouse signals.
That is interesting, now they ALWAYS use them!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2017, 06:14:44 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 10, 2017, 03:40:12 PM
Came across a new one on US-40 in Maryland yesterday.... a flashing RED arrow. The sign posted next to it stated "LEFT TURN PERMITTED AFTER FULL STOP WHEN FLASHING" or something along those lines. A quick search indicates this signal may have predated the decision to go with a yellow flasher for the same traffic control device.

Maryland uses flashing red arrows instead of flashing yellow arrows. They do indeed predate the flashing yellow arrow.

I believe the Maryland Transport authority (whoever they are) took up a study at one point, to consider converting the FRAs to FYAs. But they decided to stick with the red arrow for various reasons.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 10, 2017, 06:39:38 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 10, 2017, 03:32:25 PM
^^ I'm trying to understand the purpose of holding the through traffic but allowing permitted left turns during the conflicting walk phase... If the intersection is split phased, they could just run that crosswalk with the adjacent (opposing) through green instead. There is a slight geometric offset at the intersection, but nothing too crazy (seems like prohibiting RTOR onto SW 312th would better protect peds in the crosswalk).

EDIT: Thinking about this more... I think I get that they're trying to clear left turn traffic during the opposing through phase, so if there's no through movement on this approach then the signal need not run the second half of the split. So it's actually pretty clever. However, it looks like there are no dedicated turn lanes on this approach, so use of a FYA is still somewhat bizarre (and is this even allowed by MUTCD?).

Here's a Gmaps link: https://goo.gl/RuoQou -- each approach is single lane.

The idea with the FYA was to allow the NB 14 Ave S traffic to turn left at the same time as the crosswalk (a busy one due to a nearby school). The traditional split-phased setup conflicted with the crosswalk, so two phases were required even if both cars and pedestrians originated from the SB approach.

This setup, while intriguing, has resulted in a situation where a driver may enter and freely turn left without stopping (after giving way to pedestrians), but must stop before turning right.

I too would rather see the through movements occur at the same time (the offset is more apparent in person, but still not that crazy); evidently, the city of Federal Way must disagree on the offsets not being too crazy. I'll email my contact in the city to see what the "official" idea was.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 10, 2017, 06:52:02 PM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on July 10, 2017, 03:40:12 PM
Came across a new one on US-40 in Maryland yesterday.... a flashing RED arrow. The sign posted next to it stated "LEFT TURN PERMITTED AFTER FULL STOP WHEN FLASHING" or something along those lines. A quick search indicates this signal may have predated the decision to go with a yellow flasher for the same traffic control device.

Youtube to the rescue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ2jZ62dLlY
Another one in Delaware: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLbPka-JUxo

Delaware has long used those T signal flashing reds.  They continue to install them at new locations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 10, 2017, 09:00:22 PM
Clumsy looking span-wire installations. Don't Maryland and Delaware use mast-arms at all?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on July 10, 2017, 09:04:32 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 10, 2017, 09:00:22 PM
Clumsy looking span-wire installations. Don't Maryland and Delaware use mast-arms at all?

Delaware has started to use mast arms with new installations.  Maryland has a mix of mast arms and wires (even on the same road at consecutive intersections).  Again, newer installations in MD tend to be on masts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 10, 2017, 09:08:04 PM
Good to know they're modernizing, same as New York DOT.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 13, 2017, 02:01:48 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 10, 2017, 06:39:38 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 10, 2017, 03:32:25 PM
^^ I'm trying to understand the purpose of holding the through traffic but allowing permitted left turns during the conflicting walk phase... If the intersection is split phased, they could just run that crosswalk with the adjacent (opposing) through green instead. There is a slight geometric offset at the intersection, but nothing too crazy (seems like prohibiting RTOR onto SW 312th would better protect peds in the crosswalk).

EDIT: Thinking about this more... I think I get that they're trying to clear left turn traffic during the opposing through phase, so if there's no through movement on this approach then the signal need not run the second half of the split. So it's actually pretty clever. However, it looks like there are no dedicated turn lanes on this approach, so use of a FYA is still somewhat bizarre (and is this even allowed by MUTCD?).

Here's a Gmaps link: https://goo.gl/RuoQou -- each approach is single lane.

The idea with the FYA was to allow the NB 14 Ave S traffic to turn left at the same time as the crosswalk (a busy one due to a nearby school). The traditional split-phased setup conflicted with the crosswalk, so two phases were required even if both cars and pedestrians originated from the SB approach.

This setup, while intriguing, has resulted in a situation where a driver may enter and freely turn left without stopping (after giving way to pedestrians), but must stop before turning right.

I too would rather see the through movements occur at the same time (the offset is more apparent in person, but still not that crazy); evidently, the city of Federal Way must disagree on the offsets not being too crazy. I'll email my contact in the city to see what the "official" idea was.

I kind of agree with roadfro about what I beleive is the pjurpose of this signal sequence, but I thought I'd put it in my own words:

14 Ave is a narrow 2 lane road.  If there was standard signaling (RYG w/o arrows), one left turner could block all the cars behind them if there is a lot of opposing traffic - so the standard way of resolving this is to incorporate split phasing.  In regular split phasing, first the SB cars can go straight and left, and then in a completely separate phase NB cars can go straight and left.  Peds crossing on the western sidewalk will cross with SB cars and peds crossing on the eastern sidewalk will cross with NB cars.

But there is an inefficiency in this. if you are NB and want to turn left, and all the cars opposing you in the SB direction want to turn left, there is no reason that you cannot also turn left during the SB phase.  In the world of FYAs, in lead-lag signals, the lagging side will get a red light and a FYA while the lead side has green arrow and vice versa.   So this signal is applying what is commonly done for a lead-lag to a split-phase. And assuming that sightlines are clear, then there is no reason not to allow the NB car to turn during the SB signal phase.

[Now we all know that split phasing is basically a special type of lead-lag signal.  It's a lead-lag without an overlapping through phase.  Most lead-lag signals will still have the overlapping through phase as being the lengthiest phase (most time).  Some signals operate as almost split-phase with a very short overlapping phase (30 sec WB, 10 sec overlapping, 30 sec EB) for an example see Wilshire at Santa Monica in Beverly Hills, CA.  And then the split-phase, where the overlapping phase = 0 sec.  Federal Way realized this and has applied some principles for lead-lag signals to split-phased signals.]

Granted, because the road is narrow, one can only take advantage of the FYA if there isn't somebody ahead of you who wants to go straight.  But given that there is a dead end just to the north of the intersection, I can safely assume that there are many more NB cars that turn than go straight at this intersection.

It seems that Federal Way has incorporated an idea that I had thought of for an intersection near me that I mentioned on this post back in 2014:

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg2005449#msg2005449

Well done, Federal Way.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 13, 2017, 04:06:59 PM
Someone had mentioned earlier a set of bagged newly installed signals in the Westbury/Jericho area of Nassau County on Long Island. Those new signals at Jericho Tpk. (N.Y.25) and Roxbury Rd. (opp. Home Depot) went into service this week and sure enough there are new FYA's in both directions on N.Y. 25. Good job NYS DOT! This is at least the third such installation in Nassau County.

Regrettably Nassau County DPW, a huge traffic signal agency themselves, has yet to install their first FYA on county roads as far as I know, but as always, if anyone knows different, please correct me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 15, 2017, 09:52:50 PM
In the Rockford, IL area flashing yellow arrows have been installed at the US 20/Alpine Road interchange for the left turns to enter US 20.  The signs used with the FYA heads were the 'left turn yield on flashing arrow' - the type usually seen in Missouri, but not Illinois or Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 15, 2017, 11:56:52 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 13, 2017, 04:06:59 PM
Someone had mentioned earlier a set of bagged newly installed signals in the Westbury/Jericho area of Nassau County on Long Island. Those new signals at Jericho Tpk. (N.Y.25) and Roxbury Rd. (opp. Home Depot) went into service this week and sure enough there are new FYA's in both directions on N.Y. 25. Good job NYS DOT! This is at least the third such installation in Nassau County.

Regrettably Nassau County DPW, a huge traffic signal agency themselves, has yet to install their first FYA on county roads as far as I know, but as always, if anyone knows different, please correct me.

Piggybacking off this post

There is another new set on 25A in Huntington where it intersects with Fort Hill Rd and Loma Place, going westbound.

There previously was no signal at all.

Vew of the intersection in question
https://goo.gl/maps/N5tCpRt4mcw

This looks to be the first FYA installation in Suffolk county, and the third such on 25A alone.

NYSDOT is really stepping up its game, seems like the side by side left turn signal may very soon be extinct in new state installations except for some split phase intersections (though the right turn signals will probably not change in the foreseeable future), but I welcome the change as well.

Now only if the Nassau DPW and various Suffolk traffic agencies would get on board.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 16, 2017, 08:15:43 PM
Turns out the one on Jericho Tpk at Home Depot also has an FYA coming out of the Home Depot parking lot which surprised me. You're right about NYS DOT stepping up its game. I used to think Nassau DPW was the better of the two agencies, but lately the roles seem to have reversed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on July 17, 2017, 12:35:49 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 16, 2017, 08:15:43 PM
Turns out the one on Jericho Tpk at Home Depot also has an FYA coming out of the Home Depot parking lot which surprised me. You're right about NYS DOT stepping up its game. I used to think Nassau DPW was the better of the two agencies, but lately the roles seem to have reversed.

That is surprising... that shows a huge commitment by NYS

NYCDOT also needs to step up its game and use the FYA as intended, though they are a totally different animal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 24, 2017, 09:38:46 PM
Per this document, (http://www.cityblm.org/home/showdocument?id=14504) Bloomington, Illinois will soon begin installing flashing yellow arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on October 28, 2017, 10:11:30 PM
Per Pages 76 of 130 and 83 of 130 of https://www.co.mchenry.il.us/home/showdocument?id=77414 (https://www.co.mchenry.il.us/home/showdocument?id=77414), McHenry County, Illinois may be installing FYA's along their section of Algonquin Road and at the Main Street/Wilmot Road intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I understand Bloomington, being so close to Peoria...but McHenry County kinda blows my mind. Are they using them across the border in Wisconsin? Or in Kane County? I see your earlier post about them being already installed in Rockford...ok that isn't far from McHenry County at all
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.
I guess I don't mind the FYA...but IL has bigger fish to fry, than spending money replacing 5 Section Towers that work just fine for the FYA

If done as regular maintenance/upgrade projects, fine

I've seen them and driven thru them in Peoria, they are across the Mississippi in Missouri. I'd call it more nostalgia than neophobia
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 02:51:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

I guess I don't mind the FYA...but IL has bigger fish to fry, than spending money replacing 5 Section Towers that work just fine for the FYA

If done as regular maintenance/upgrade projects, fine

They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

A local city near me installed three FYAs a few years ago (many more since). The cost, all in (including rewiring, phasing, etc) was $530,000 (https://goo.gl/JaC8Fq) (Puyallup project #1). Sounds like a lot, but it's chump change compared to the cost of a lot of other things.

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 02:51:49 PM
I've seen them and driven thru them in Peoria, they are across the Mississippi in Missouri. I'd call it more nostalgia than neophobia

Thank you for your honesty. I can go along with the nostalgia factor when considering the benefits of green orbs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on October 31, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on October 31, 2017, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.
My understanding was that NY's pension fund was solvent (and one of the best in the country), unlike IL... at least at the state level.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 02:18:43 PM
Quote from: vdeane on October 31, 2017, 01:40:56 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Oh, I totally understand why IL has the issue because NY has the same problem with pensions. FYAs aren't going up nearly as quickly as they are in neighboring Massachusetts because signals are only being replaced when necessary. Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.
My understanding was that NY's pension fund was solvent (and one of the best in the country), unlike IL... at least at the state level.

Honestly, I wouldn't be shocked if some of NY's debt comes from pensions. 5% of the 2018 budget is debt servicing, or about $300 million more than the total NYSDOT budget of $5 billion. Either way, NY doesn't have the money for transportation projects.

Of course, there are tons of ways we could be saving money, but that's another topic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: cl94 on October 31, 2017, 10:43:42 AM
Control boxes more than a few years old can't handle FYAs, so it's more than just replacing some signal heads.

Sorry. Was being lazy when I wrote my first post. Meant to imply that costs are more than just signals heads (new equipment and wiring, sometimes a new mast) but are otherwise relatively inexpensive modifications.

Quote from: empirestate on October 31, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).

But FYAs are not new *to roadgeeks*. You can't really be neophobic towards them. Parts of Oregon and Washington have had them for well over ten years now. Even if they're new to southern Illinois, they're not new to us.

If a bunch of old people told me they didn't want anything to do with them, that'd be a different story.

Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Understandable. Do the counties rely heavily on state funds for road works?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Throckmorton on October 31, 2017, 06:27:20 PM
   
This type of signal has recently been employed in Kansas City, MO, at 85th Street and Wornall Road. It is available to northbound and southbound traffic (Wornall). I haven't noticed if it is used on 85th Street.   
   
   
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 07:27:50 PM
Best I know, the FYA doesn't exist in Southern IL

Yes, I've read the threads and understand that the FYA is designed to eliminate the "Yellow Trap" -- but I have never encountered a "Yellow Trap" in IL. I have in MO, but not in IL.

The FYA is approved, and it will probably be across all of IL, eventually.

Call me stubborn, but I still don't see the problem with 5 Section Tower PPLTs. They work (unless you do Lead/Lag, which opens up "Yellow Trap" scenarios).

Most Lead/Lags I have come across in IL use "Left on Arrow Only" signals instead of 5 Section Towers.

I guess in full disclosure, I see the FYA solving a problem that doesn't exist, if and only if current PPLT phasing doesn't create the "Yellow Trap" scenario

Southern IL has a couple of neat "road-geeky" things, for being a relatively rural part of the state. Got 2 adjacent exits off of I-57 in Marion that are (North to South) DDI (The Hill Ave) then SPUI (IL 13).

I lived and worked in Peoria, where the FYA has pretty much replaced many/most of the 5 Section Towers -- they work fine, but the traffic pattern and flow and signal phases really are the same as they would be on a 5 Section Tower -- just Permissive is a Flashing Yellow Arrow instead of a Solid Green Ball
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 08:54:14 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 07:27:50 PM
I guess in full disclosure, I see the FYA solving a problem that doesn't exist, if and only if current PPLT phasing doesn't create the "Yellow Trap" scenario

It solves a problem that largely doesn't exist, but it allows for scenarios that would have previously been impossible. So lead/lag with green orbs is indeed quite rare, but a similar setup, using a dedicated left turn signal, is now possible, without a yellow trap. Lead/lag phasing has become quite common in my area. And while the busiest corridors generally don't use FYAs here (aside from a few municipalities that use the signal at all left turns), the only way municipalities could use permissive phasing, while simultaneously maintaining the lead/lag phasing, would be to utilise the flashing yellow arrow display. It's a very important part of a city's "toolbox" of traffic tools
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:03:00 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 04:22:15 PM
They really don't cost a lot of money. If your local city or county truly can't afford a few new signals, you must have some massive fish over there.

When you consider the lack of a state budget for a couple of years and the pension debt, yes, there are some pretty big-ass fish over here.

Understandable. Do the counties rely heavily on state funds for road works?

Not really, but the largest one (Cook) is in as bad a shape as the state (if not worse - Exhibit A is the pop tax fiasco).  However, counties and municipalities (other than Chicago) do not typically install signals on state highways.  That's IDOT's job.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 10:16:33 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
However, counties and municipalities (other than Chicago) do not typically install signals on state highways.  That's IDOT's job.
Be it up in Suburbia, in Peoria, or down here in Carbondale, pretty constant that IDOT maintains the State and US Highway signals, from what I've noticed

The various IDOT Districts do things a little differently (those FYAs on US 150/War Memorial Dr in Peoria say hello, as do the yellow stoplight backplates in Springfield, when pretty much the rest of the state uses black), but they maintain and control those highways in their Districts. Heck, the Carbondale District likes to use Lead/Lag phasing (but never on a PPLT -- only on "Green Arrow Only" Lefts) on IL 13, a lot more than I've noticed in other parts of the state for stoplight phasing. Had to reset my "Left Arrow" anticipation after moving down this way
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on November 01, 2017, 01:39:53 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 08:54:14 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 07:27:50 PM
I guess in full disclosure, I see the FYA solving a problem that doesn't exist, if and only if current PPLT phasing doesn't create the "Yellow Trap" scenario

It solves a problem that largely doesn't exist, but it allows for scenarios that would have previously been impossible. So lead/lag with green orbs is indeed quite rare, but a similar setup, using a dedicated left turn signal, is now possible, without a yellow trap. Lead/lag phasing has become quite common in my area. And while the busiest corridors generally don't use FYAs here (aside from a few municipalities that use the signal at all left turns), the only way municipalities could use permissive phasing, while simultaneously maintaining the lead/lag phasing, would be to utilise the flashing yellow arrow display. It's a very important part of a city's "toolbox" of traffic tools

I guess this discussion proves the point.  To the extent that the signal timing won't be changed anyway and there isn't already a situation that induces yellow trap, then there is no need to introduce the FYA.  Save the money and leave things alone.

But, if there is a good case to be made to incorporate lead-lag or other phasing that might lead to yellow trap, then the FYA should absolutely be incorporated.

Here in MD, they use FRA instead of FYA.  And for most of the intersections that I come across that use the FRA, it seems that they are used in situations with lead-lead phasing (which would have been fine with doghouse signals).  Admittedly, I don't know if there are any phase skips in the middle of the night that could result in yellow trap at these intersections, although that is a possibility.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on November 01, 2017, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: empirestate on October 31, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).

But FYAs are not new *to roadgeeks*. You can't really be neophobic towards them. Parts of Oregon and Washington have had them for well over ten years now. Even if they're new to southern Illinois, they're not new to us.

If a bunch of old people told me they didn't want anything to do with them, that'd be a different story.

Well, exactly. You can't be neophobic to things that aren't new, and yet people are. So we're not past that stage.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on November 01, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
To everyone saying "it doesn't solve a problem if there's no yellow trap": it does solve the problem of inconsistent protected/permissive signaling practices. The FYA/FRA is intended to replace at least half a dozen different ways of signaling protected/permissive turns. The flashing red ball confused the hell out of my parents the first time we were in Michigan and they generally don't get confused by this stuff. I only knew what it was because I had read about it on one of the roadgeek sites. People should be able to travel across the country and encounter consistent signal practices.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on November 01, 2017, 12:22:28 PM
Quote from: cl94 on November 01, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
To everyone saying "it doesn't solve a problem if there's no yellow trap": it does solve the problem of inconsistent protected/permissive signaling practices. The FYA/FRA is intended to replace at least half a dozen different ways of signaling protected/permissive turns. The flashing red ball confused the hell out of my parents the first time we were in Michigan and they generally don't get confused by this stuff. I only knew what it was because I had read about it on one of the roadgeek sites. People should be able to travel across the country and encounter consistent signal practices.
Michigan Lefts and Jersey Jug Handles say hello

Point taken - having a consistent signal setup for PPLTs across the country is not a bad thing. And if it is the FYA eventually, so be it
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 01, 2017, 02:43:27 PM
Quote from: empirestate on November 01, 2017, 11:38:10 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 31, 2017, 06:08:51 PM
Quote from: empirestate on October 31, 2017, 09:59:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 30, 2017, 02:38:56 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 30, 2017, 11:49:17 AM
Yuck.

Hopefully this virus doesn't spread to Southern IL for a very long time!

I thought we were past the neophobia stage.

Neophobia is an incurable condition, other than by natural mortality. In my neighborhood, we've got a modern roundabout that the old-timers still hate (and still haven't learned to operate in).

But FYAs are not new *to roadgeeks*. You can't really be neophobic towards them. Parts of Oregon and Washington have had them for well over ten years now. Even if they're new to southern Illinois, they're not new to us.

If a bunch of old people told me they didn't want anything to do with them, that'd be a different story.

Well, exactly. You can't be neophobic to things that aren't new, and yet people are. So we're not past that stage.

Well, they're no longer neophobes. They're just luddites, I guess.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on November 01, 2017, 04:08:27 PM
Quote from: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 07:27:50 PM
Call me stubborn, but I still don't see the problem with 5 Section Tower PPLTs. They work (unless you do Lead/Lag, which opens up "Yellow Trap" scenarios).
As discussed previously, while lead/lag is one popular cause of yellow trap, its far from the only one. Phase skipping is another big one. Also PPLTs don't just help in the yellow trap situation, studies show it helps increase an understanding to yield even without a yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on November 01, 2017, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: Brandon on October 31, 2017, 10:11:33 PM
However, counties and municipalities (other than Chicago) do not typically install signals on state highways.  That's IDOT's job.

Kane County certainly tries, although only IL 25 at Gilbert Street near South Elgin (an intersection which the Streetview van has not been through since the last project) seems to be the only one they've succeeded at.

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 10:16:33 PM
The various IDOT Districts do things a little differently (those FYAs on US 150/War Memorial Dr in Peoria say hello, as do the yellow stoplight backplates in Springfield, when pretty much the rest of the state uses black), but they maintain and control those highways in their Districts.

The yellow/retroreflective backplates have been popping up a lot in the Collinsville and Peoria Districts lately, and are used on a case by case basis in the Chicago District.

Quote from: ilpt4u on October 31, 2017, 10:16:33 PMHeck, the Carbondale District likes to use Lead/Lag phasing (but never on a PPLT -- only on "Green Arrow Only" Lefts) on IL 13, a lot more than I've noticed in other parts of the state for stoplight phasing.

There is a lot of lead/lag phasing in Springfield, on Business 55 around Bloomington - Normal, US 51 through Forsyth, and Business 20/State Street east of downtown Rockford.

If IDOT really wanted to start changing to FYA's on a statewide basis, there's been enough projects with signal work lately they could have easily changed a good number over.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ilpt4u on November 01, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 01, 2017, 10:24:46 PM
If IDOT really wanted to start changing to FYA's on a statewide basis, there's been enough projects with signal work lately they could have easily changed a good number over.
And so far, outside of Peoria, there just hasn't been a big shift to the FYA in IL, at least not yet

If IDOT really wanted to use them, the IL 59 project from the Fox Valley Mall to I-88 on the Naperville/Aurora border would have been a good place to use them. Last I checked, they didn't
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: bob7374 on November 02, 2017, 11:46:44 AM
FYAs have made it to my region of Mass. in the last year or so. Currently, a local project revising a section of MA 53 has installed two sets of FYAs at adjacent intersections between where a road diet project is occuring. The problem is they have activated them while at the same time working to revise the traffic pattern so that the 2 lanes in each direction are being change to 1 through lane and a dedicated left-turn lane in each direction. The pavement has been milled so that the new roadway sensors can be installed leaving FYAs activated with no traffic markings. This has led to people used to going straight in the left lanes being honked at by cars behind them when the new green left turn arrow goes on and these cars refusing to turn but instead waiting until the flashing yellow arrow is activated to go straight through the intersection. It has been like this for more than a week and I am hoping (and meanwhile using the intersections only for right turns) this situation is fixed soon.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on November 21, 2017, 09:05:45 PM
Another new FYA installation by NYSDOT Region-10 on Long Island. In Lindenhurst (Suffolk County) at the intersection of S.R. 27A (Montauk Hwy.) and S. 13th St. No previous signals existed here, and according to the news story the signals were installed due to high accident history and community pressure.

In an increasing trend for NYSDOT, all the heads are hung from one very long/fat curving mast arm. And all are reflective-bordered, backplated 12-inch heads, not always standard for the cross street, but wisely done here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 01, 2017, 10:24:46 PM
If IDOT really wanted to start changing to FYA's on a statewide basis, there's been enough projects with signal work lately they could have easily changed a good number over.
And so far, outside of Peoria, there just hasn't been a big shift to the FYA in IL, at least not yet

If IDOT really wanted to use them, the IL 59 project from the Fox Valley Mall to I-88 on the Naperville/Aurora border would have been a good place to use them. Last I checked, they didn't

Outside of the Kane County Division of Transportation, there really isn't much of a push (that I've seen or heard) for the FYA in District 1.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on November 23, 2017, 11:42:46 PM
Seems I found an instance of a FYA being replaced with a doghouse (?).

At Old Town Rd and Boyle Rd in Suffolk County NY, the Town of Brookhaven put up this (http://"https://goo.gl/maps/rjHqUorLwjH2") set of signals in 2011 or 2012 to replace an older installation. The 4 ways in the center were clusters of thru signals and bimodal FYAs (green arrow and FYA sharing the same head).

Those clusters were replaced shortly after by 2 sets of modified doghouses, with 3 balls and one bimodal left arrow to the left of the green light (similar to the right turn signal pictured in the GSV above). The current setup is not on GSV unfortunately.

I can't find any reason this was done, and this was the first FYA installation in R10 by any agency, and to my knowledge the only FYA not installed by NYSDOT in R10.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on December 08, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've never seen one of these, though I know many of you have.  Here are two shots I took of a signal in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, where the most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4729/38888676072_751de28c8b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/22fsCx3)
IMG_1885 (https://flic.kr/p/22fsCx3) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4582/38209250274_9d3e44726f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/21dqoV9)
IMG_1886 (https://flic.kr/p/21dqoV9) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 01:49:18 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 08, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've never seen one of these, though I know many of you have.  Here are two shots I took of a signal in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, where the most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow.

Not sure when that signal was installed, but IIRC, the preference is now for the bimodal signal to reside in the center housing, rather than the bottom. I always thought having it on the bottom made more sense, because you could more easily distinguish a jump from FYA to SYA from your peripheral vision (change in phase and position), but I guess that hasn't been proven to be a concern.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on December 12, 2017, 02:43:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 01:49:18 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 08, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've never seen one of these, though I know many of you have.  Here are two shots I took of a signal in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, where the most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow.

Not sure when that signal was installed, but IIRC, the preference is now for the bimodal signal to reside in the center housing, rather than the bottom. I always thought having it on the bottom made more sense, because you could more easily distinguish a jump from FYA to SYA from your peripheral vision (change in phase and position), but I guess that hasn't been proven to be a concern.

Hmm? I'm pretty sure that the signal in Paul's picture is red/red arrow, yellow/yellow arrow (hard to tell from his picture whether they're orbs or arrows, without them illuminated), then flashing yellow arrow at the bottom. There's no bimodal aspects to speak of there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 03:15:58 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on December 12, 2017, 02:43:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 01:49:18 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 08, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've never seen one of these, though I know many of you have.  Here are two shots I took of a signal in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, where the most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow.

Not sure when that signal was installed, but IIRC, the preference is now for the bimodal signal to reside in the center housing, rather than the bottom. I always thought having it on the bottom made more sense, because you could more easily distinguish a jump from FYA to SYA from your peripheral vision (change in phase and position), but I guess that hasn't been proven to be a concern.

Hmm? I'm pretty sure that the signal in Paul's picture is red/red arrow, yellow/yellow arrow (hard to tell from his picture whether they're orbs or arrows, without them illuminated), then flashing yellow arrow at the bottom. There's no bimodal aspects to speak of there.

Yes, that does appear to be the case. However, Paul's post states that the "most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow", which, as far as I'm concerned, is a fancy way of saying, "flashing yellow arrow". He didn't directly state that there was no protected phase.

Judging by this street view link, there is definitely no green arrow: https://goo.gl/Yj4WYS

I figured by saying "never seen one of these", he meant that he's never seen a bimodal FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 13, 2017, 10:43:37 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 01:49:18 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on December 08, 2017, 08:45:36 PM
I've never seen one of these, though I know many of you have.  Here are two shots I took of a signal in Stevens Point, Wisconsin, where the most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow.

Not sure when that signal was installed, but IIRC, the preference is now for the bimodal signal to reside in the center housing, rather than the bottom. I always thought having it on the bottom made more sense, because you could more easily distinguish a jump from FYA to SYA from your peripheral vision (change in phase and position), but I guess that hasn't been proven to be a concern.

MUTCD still specifies a bimodal green/flashing yellow arrow section if using a 3-section FYA PPLT display. An Interim Approval (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm) was issued in 2014 that allows the option for agencies to use a steady yellow arrow section as the flashing yellow section.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on December 13, 2017, 11:03:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 12, 2017, 03:15:58 AM
Yes, that does appear to be the case. However, Paul's post states that the "most permissive indication for left-turning vehicles is a flashing yellow arrow", which, as far as I'm concerned, is a fancy way of saying, "flashing yellow arrow". He didn't directly state that there was no protected phase.

Judging by this street view link, there is definitely no green arrow: https://goo.gl/Yj4WYS

I figured by saying "never seen one of these", he meant that he's never seen a bimodal FYA.

I was using "permissive" as a relative term rather than a technical term.  What I meant was that there was no protected phase, which in my mind counts as "100% permissive."  FYA's indicate that a left turn is conditionally permitted, on the condition that the oncoming lanes are clear.  The indications of this signal head, from top to bottom, are solid red arrow, solid yellow arrow, and flashing yellow arrow.

What I'd never seen is an FYA without a fourth solid green arrow section below it.  In my experiences, every FYA up to this point had been a 4-section head.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 20160805 on December 13, 2017, 06:05:27 PM
On the subject of FYAs, I've never understood why the solid and flashing yellow lights are on different parts of the signal, i.e. red, yellow, yellow, green.  Can't the two yellows be combined into one light like on regular traffic lights?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on December 13, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
^^ The supposed reason is that it better alerts the driver that the light is changing, but there might be future approval in combining the yellows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 13, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
The idea always was that it was useful to actually see the light change position.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 13, 2017, 09:11:03 PM
Quote from: Big John on December 13, 2017, 07:29:09 PM
^^ The supposed reason is that it better alerts the driver that the light is changing, but there might be future approval in combining the yellows.
Quote from: SignBridge on December 13, 2017, 09:03:44 PM
The idea always was that it was useful to actually see the light change position.

There's also the idea that, if you look up briefly and see a yellow arrow occupying the second-to-top housing, that it could be a solid yellow arrow and the protected phase was ending (perhaps prompting drivers to speed up and inadvertently drive into oncoming traffic). That's only possible with the combined FYA/SYA head, not the bimodal SGA/FYA (the most common and MUTCD-implemented variation). Of course, the solid yellow arrow follows the ending of both the permissive and protected phase, so that error is still possible with all other FYA variations (just maybe less likely).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ET21 on December 14, 2017, 08:33:30 AM
Quote from: Brandon on November 22, 2017, 10:36:13 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on November 01, 2017, 11:05:25 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on November 01, 2017, 10:24:46 PM
If IDOT really wanted to start changing to FYA's on a statewide basis, there's been enough projects with signal work lately they could have easily changed a good number over.
And so far, outside of Peoria, there just hasn't been a big shift to the FYA in IL, at least not yet

If IDOT really wanted to use them, the IL 59 project from the Fox Valley Mall to I-88 on the Naperville/Aurora border would have been a good place to use them. Last I checked, they didn't

Outside of the Kane County Division of Transportation, there really isn't much of a push (that I've seen or heard) for the FYA in District 1.

Kane is the only county where I've seen these lights, mainly along Randall Road through Geneva and St Charles
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on December 22, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
I haven't seen any FYA installations in Tennessee before, but I noticed one today on Poplar Avenue at a pair of private driveways - it must be a recent installation since Streetview still shows a 5-head signal (https://goo.gl/maps/DKaucPPv5LP2) being there back in April. The left-side pole-mounted signal, which is a Memphis-area staple, has also been replaced with a four-head FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 22, 2017, 07:46:07 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on December 22, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
I haven't seen any FYA installations in Tennessee before, but I noticed one today on Poplar Avenue at a pair of private driveways - it must be a recent installation since Streetview still shows a 5-head signal (https://goo.gl/maps/DKaucPPv5LP2) being there back in April. The left-side pole-mounted signal, which is a Memphis-area staple, has also been replaced with a four-head FYA.

Glad to hear. I don't know why left-side signals aren't more commonplace, especially with permissive signals. It's hard to look at traffic, at eye level, and watch an overhead traffic signal (just in case the light changes before you complete your turn).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 22, 2017, 08:28:53 PM
Jakeroot, that point is very well taken. I've often thought the same thing myself, about how difficult it is to watch opposing traffic and an overhead signal at the same time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on December 23, 2017, 03:23:53 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 22, 2017, 07:46:07 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on December 22, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
I haven't seen any FYA installations in Tennessee before, but I noticed one today on Poplar Avenue at a pair of private driveways - it must be a recent installation since Streetview still shows a 5-head signal (https://goo.gl/maps/DKaucPPv5LP2) being there back in April. The left-side pole-mounted signal, which is a Memphis-area staple, has also been replaced with a four-head FYA.

Glad to hear. I don't know why left-side signals aren't more commonplace, especially with permissive signals. It's hard to look at traffic, at eye level, and watch an overhead traffic signal (just in case the light changes before you complete your turn).

That's one of the things I love about Minnesota's signals. Left-side pole signals everywhere. I feel like it should be standard.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Hurricane Rex on December 23, 2017, 03:57:09 AM
There is one of that type of signal in Sherwood and I always pay attention to that vs the traditional one used at the same intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 01:46:25 PM
At the very least, even if it isn't a permissive left, at least you can see them, compared to overhead signals which are often covered by large vehicles. Which is why it's important to have a pole mounted signal on the right as well. I have run numerous signals due to not being able to see the signal. Even following at a reasonable distance, it can be hard to see over semis.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: capt.ron on December 23, 2017, 01:58:08 PM
[I'm late to this topic but oh well.] It's made it to Arkansas. The ones in Searcy got installed about 2 years ago. They initially caused confusion but people are more used to them now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 23, 2017, 08:00:01 PM
Again I completely agree with Jakeroot's point. That's why I've always thought California's standard configurations are the best. They cover every angle of viewing. Other Southwestern states use similar arrangements that I like too. Notably Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on December 23, 2017, 10:41:01 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on December 22, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
I haven't seen any FYA installations in Tennessee before, but I noticed one today on Poplar Avenue at a pair of private driveways - it must be a recent installation since Streetview still shows a 5-head signal (https://goo.gl/maps/DKaucPPv5LP2) being there back in April. The left-side pole-mounted signal, which is a Memphis-area staple, has also been replaced with a four-head FYA.
Eastern Tennessee's had a few for a while now. Oak Ridge has a pair, for example, and I want to say they've been spotted in Pigeon Forge, TN.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on December 23, 2017, 08:00:01 PM
Again I completely agree with Jakeroot's point. That's why I've always thought California's standard configurations are the best. They cover every angle of viewing. Other Southwestern states use similar arrangements that I like too. Notably Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado.

California's placement strategy is easily one the best in the business. Nevada and Arizona clearly follow their lead. Colorado is also extremely good (and they remind me a lot of BC with their overhead backplates but side-mounted signals sans-backplates -- for some reason I like that look). Minnesota is great as well (as pointed out by MNHighwayMan above). And neighboring Wisconsin was once my favorite, with their near-side signals for most movements, but those seem to have fallen out of favour (if Eau Claire's signals are anything to go by); now they're just really good (on par with previously-mentioned states).

Brownie points to Wisconsin, Colorado, Minnesota, and Arizona for their numerous double permissive lefts. My fetish.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on December 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM
Quote from: lordsutch on December 22, 2017, 07:42:54 PM
I haven't seen any FYA installations in Tennessee before, but I noticed one today on Poplar Avenue at a pair of private driveways - it must be a recent installation since Streetview still shows a 5-head signal (https://goo.gl/maps/DKaucPPv5LP2) being there back in April. The left-side pole-mounted signal, which is a Memphis-area staple, has also been replaced with a four-head FYA.

The old setup had quite a mix of signals shown in Streetview there. Side by sides, doghouses, and 3Ms.

Are any of the new FYAs there visibility limited ala 3Ms?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: lordsutch on December 24, 2017, 02:51:05 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on December 23, 2017, 11:26:43 PM
The old setup had quite a mix of signals shown in Streetview there. Side by sides, doghouses, and 3Ms.

Are any of the new FYAs there visibility limited ala 3Ms?

The upgraded westbound signals, including the FYA facing that direction, are still visibility limited, due to the proximity of the Ridgeway Rd/Shady Grove Rd intersection just to the east.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on December 24, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on December 23, 2017, 08:00:01 PM
Again I completely agree with Jakeroot's point. That's why I've always thought California's standard configurations are the best. They cover every angle of viewing. Other Southwestern states use similar arrangements that I like too. Notably Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado.

Sort of like these, which is an IDOT standard: https://goo.gl/maps/LqEqtQZCbSL2
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2017, 02:03:48 PM
Quote from: Brandon on December 24, 2017, 07:23:19 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on December 23, 2017, 08:00:01 PM
Again I completely agree with Jakeroot's point. That's why I've always thought California's standard configurations are the best. They cover every angle of viewing. Other Southwestern states use similar arrangements that I like too. Notably Arizona, Nevada, and Colorado.

Sort of like these, which is an IDOT standard: https://goo.gl/maps/LqEqtQZCbSL2

IDOT's only signal placement shortcoming is their lack of a far side supplemental right-side signal. At least near-side signals are ubiquitous. Wisconsin's previous standard also lacked far side right-side signals, which bothered me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 24, 2017, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
California's placement strategy is easily one the best in the business. Nevada and Arizona clearly follow their lead.

With newer signals, I think Nevada tends to outshine California in several aspects. For new installations, Nevada follows a "one overhead signal per lane standard", but I don't always see that in California.

With new wider intersections in Nevada, you'll find left turns with standard overhead signals (one per lane) and a far left side supplemental pole-mounted signal, AND an overhead near side signal–I can't recall ever seeing that in California.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 24, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
I once did see an overhead near-left-side signal in Calif. It was in a San Francisco suburb on a downhill right-curving approach to an intersection. The extra signal was mounted on the reverse side of the overhead for the opposite direction. (New Jersey style)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 24, 2017, 06:14:31 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 24, 2017, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
California's placement strategy is easily one the best in the business. Nevada and Arizona clearly follow their lead.

With newer signals, I think Nevada tends to outshine California in several aspects. For new installations, Nevada follows a "one overhead signal per lane standard", but I don't always see that in California.

With new wider intersections in Nevada, you'll find left turns with standard overhead signals (one per lane) and a far left side supplemental pole-mounted signal, AND an overhead near side signal–I can't recall ever seeing that in California.

The overhead signal-per-lane strategy is something I could take or leave. In California, because the supplementary signals are usually so abundant, I hardly ever need to look overhead to see what my signal is.

That said, signal-per-lane does make sense, so credit to Nevada where it's due. Now, they just need to use near-side signals for all new approaches. I noticed quite a few when I was there in July, so I might be late with that recommendation.

Quote from: SignBridge on December 24, 2017, 05:07:27 PM
I once did see an overhead near-left-side signal in Calif. It was in a San Francisco suburb on a downhill right-curving approach to an intersection. The extra signal was mounted on the reverse side of the overhead for the opposite direction. (New Jersey style)

Yeah, I seem to recall seeing them, but only on limited-visibility approaches, and only when mounting the signal on the mast [in a position that it wouldn't normally go] is insufficient.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on December 25, 2017, 12:18:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 24, 2017, 06:14:31 PM
Quote from: roadfro on December 24, 2017, 03:01:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 23, 2017, 10:49:13 PM
California's placement strategy is easily one the best in the business. Nevada and Arizona clearly follow their lead.

With newer signals, I think Nevada tends to outshine California in several aspects. For new installations, Nevada follows a "one overhead signal per lane standard", but I don't always see that in California.

With new wider intersections in Nevada, you'll find left turns with standard overhead signals (one per lane) and a far left side supplemental pole-mounted signal, AND an overhead near side signal–I can't recall ever seeing that in California.

The overhead signal-per-lane strategy is something I could take or leave. In California, because the supplementary signals are usually so abundant, I hardly ever need to look overhead to see what my signal is.

That said, signal-per-lane does make sense, so credit to Nevada where it's due. Now, they just need to use near-side signals for all new approaches. I noticed quite a few when I was there in July, so I might be late with that recommendation.

A near-side post-mounted through signal tends to only be used on wider intersections or where there is a geometric visibility issue (e.g. a curve on the approach, main signals mounted under an underpass, etc.).

I can take or leave the near side signal, to be honest. The same issue with a big vehicle blocking an overhead signal in front of me can come up with a near-side signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on December 25, 2017, 12:29:32 PM
PA has one more, at the US 422/Ramona Road intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/RSJFZKmQUaR2) near Myerstown, put up during a recent intersection reconfiguration:

(https://i.imgur.com/WQdiGYl.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on December 26, 2017, 06:48:44 PM
So is that PA's second FYA intersection?

Going back to supplemental near-side signals, the new NY standard for high-traffic roads in suburban/rural areas is 1 signal per lane, plus a supplemental near-side signal. NYSDOT Region 3 (Syracuse) in particular has been using a ton of near-side and pole mounted signals, with the NY 414/Del Lago Casino intersection and a few others having 3 heads (2 overhead + 1 near-side pole) for 1 lane. No idea if this will spread throughout the state.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 26, 2017, 07:04:17 PM
Haven't seen that on Long Island Region-10 so far, even in brand new FYA installations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on December 27, 2017, 05:06:34 PM
Quote from: cl94 on December 26, 2017, 06:48:44 PM
So is that PA's second FYA intersection?

I think there are at least four (at least that we know of)

- Rossmoyne Rd at US 15
- PA 52 at Pocopson Rd (Chester County)
- US 422 & Raymona Rd
- Somewhere on US 422 in Indiana County (reported by PennDOT on Twitter)

I think one is pending in York County
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 01, 2018, 10:20:48 PM
It's starting to look like NYS DOT Region-10 on Long Island is really embracing the FYI concept. Another new one has appeared in North Amityville at Route 110 and Nathalie Ave. (Yes that is the correct spelling LOL)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on January 02, 2018, 11:36:53 AM
Now that we're 7½ years into this thread, I wonder:  What states has the FYA not made it to?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mccojm on January 02, 2018, 01:17:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 01, 2018, 10:20:48 PM
It's starting to look like NYS DOT Region-10 on Long Island is really embracing the FYI concept. Another new one has appeared in North Amityville at Route 110 and Nathalie Ave. (Yes that is the correct spelling LOL)

I tagged along for that signal turn on a few weeks ago along with intersection of ny110 and sterling pl (although no FYA there).  If I'm not mistaken, region 10 policy is to do away with doghouse and replace with FYA.  There currently isn't an active plan to replace every intersection but all new ones with permissive and protected permissive left turn will have FYA.  Don't quote 100%  as I'm not from traffic department and trying to remember what the signal turn on guy said a few weeks ago.

Reg 10 just dig a signal drop at NY25a and Barnum Ave in Port Jefferson and replaced signal with FYA for wb NY25a.  Signal needed whole new cabinet to handle the FYA.  Signal was done due to political pressure after two vehicles continued straight from Barnum and into port Jeff harbor boat ramp that happened to be about 20 ft. from the road way.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2018, 01:34:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 02, 2018, 11:36:53 AM
Now that we're 7½ years into this thread, I wonder:  What states has the FYA not made it to?

New Jersey doesn't have them yet.  I haven't seen anything that indicates they are even hinting at installing one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 02, 2018, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: kphoger on January 02, 2018, 11:36:53 AM
Now that we're 7½ years into this thread, I wonder:  What states has the FYA not made it to?

Maryland, for one. Although I'm not sure that counts, since they use flashing red arrows instead.

I seem to recall that Pennsylvania was one of the last holdouts, but they've slowly started to pop up there.

I'm 99% sure that Caltrans has not yet installed an FYA on a state highway, but local agencies have started using them (on a very limited basis), so California wouldn't count.

So I guess New Jersey might be the only one left.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 08:19:06 PM
And within NYSDOT Region-10, the Nassau County DPW which maintains about  1500 signals in this suburban metropolis on hundreds of miles of county roads has yet to install their first FYA unless anyone knows different; please correct me.

Does anyone know if Suffolk County DPW has installed any on their roads as of yet?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mccojm on January 02, 2018, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 08:19:06 PM
And within NYSDOT Region-10, the Nassau County DPW which maintains about  1500 signals in this suburban metropolis on hundreds of miles of county roads has yet to install their first FYA unless anyone knows different; please correct me.

Does anyone know if Suffolk County DPW has installed any on their roads as of yet?

Have not seen any in Suffolk roads.  My understanding from Suffolk website is that the county does not maintain any signals, it's all on the towns/ villages or state in Suffolk. I do know Suffolk co still has some bi-modular green/ yellow arrow heads which I thought have been disallowed due to colorblind can't distinguish which color is lit in same head
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2018, 10:30:52 PM
I don't think Delaware has them yet either...if they do, they're in Southern Delaware. Of course, Delaware, like Maryland, has flashing red arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 10:32:52 PM
Mccojm, those bi-mode green/yellow arrows you mentioned are still permitted as far as I know. New Jersey uses them extensively. I don't approve of them either, partly for the reason you mentioned.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 02, 2018, 11:22:11 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 10:32:52 PM
Mccojm, those bi-mode green/yellow arrows you mentioned are still permitted as far as I know. New Jersey uses them extensively. I don't approve of them either, partly for the reason you mentioned.

Very common out here in Washington as well. FYAs have mostly replaced them for left turns, but right turn filter signals still often utilise bi-modal arrows.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2018, 11:37:05 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 10:32:52 PM
Mccojm, those bi-mode green/yellow arrows you mentioned are still permitted as far as I know. New Jersey uses them extensively. I don't approve of them either, partly for the reason you mentioned.

Colorblind people don't seem to take issue with them. Nor is there any reason to believe there are many accidents caused by them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on January 03, 2018, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2018, 10:30:52 PM
I don't think Delaware has them yet either...if they do, they're in Southern Delaware. Of course, Delaware, like Maryland, has flashing red arrows.

Delaware does not, officially.  However, there is one "flashing yellow arrow" in Wilmington (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7507767,-75.5544443,3a,75y,316.43h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDZW3WBSYbAHMk06K2CGb9g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DDZW3WBSYbAHMk06K2CGb9g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D315.27194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) more as a caution beacon on a free flowing right turn that has a pedestrian crossing.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 03, 2018, 08:43:40 PM
New York City also uses them as crosswalk and bike-lane protection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 04, 2018, 12:01:47 AM
Quote from: MASTERNC on January 03, 2018, 08:35:49 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 02, 2018, 10:30:52 PM
I don't think Delaware has them yet either...if they do, they're in Southern Delaware. Of course, Delaware, like Maryland, has flashing red arrows.

Delaware does not, officially.  However, there is one "flashing yellow arrow" in Wilmington (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7507767,-75.5544443,3a,75y,316.43h,90t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sDZW3WBSYbAHMk06K2CGb9g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DDZW3WBSYbAHMk06K2CGb9g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D315.27194%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) more as a caution beacon on a free flowing right turn that has a pedestrian crossing.

Hmm. Not sure that counts as it pertains to the discussion here (I think at least three signal faces are required for it to fit this thread's requirements). There's a similar beacon used here on I-705 in Tacoma, WA: https://goo.gl/Ar43Ab

It does surprise me that Delaware hasn't jumped on the FYA train, yet. From an outsider's perspective, Delaware always seemed to be pretty good with signing and signals; it genuinely surprises me that they haven't experimented with them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 07, 2018, 01:37:26 AM
Quote from: Mccojm on January 02, 2018, 10:25:05 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 02, 2018, 08:19:06 PM
And within NYSDOT Region-10, the Nassau County DPW which maintains about  1500 signals in this suburban metropolis on hundreds of miles of county roads has yet to install their first FYA unless anyone knows different; please correct me.

Does anyone know if Suffolk County DPW has installed any on their roads as of yet?

Have not seen any in Suffolk roads.  My understanding from Suffolk website is that the county does not maintain any signals, it's all on the towns/ villages or state in Suffolk. I do know Suffolk co still has some bi-modular green/ yellow arrow heads which I thought have been disallowed due to colorblind can't distinguish which color is lit in same head

At one point there was a town of Brookhaven installation a few years ago where they installed a 3 head bimodal FYA (bottom green/flashing yellow). Ot was shortly replaced with a regular bimodal doghouse setup.

I believe Suffolk County does maintain the setups on county maintained roads, except for most intersections with state roads. They dont maintain lights on town or village roads.

The county and moreso towns are still actively installing bimodal arrows. I dont think Nassau or NYCDOT install any new bimodal setups.

On the topic of NYSDOT FYA, the new one at NY111 and Motor Parkway only has an FYA for eastbound traffic on Motor Parkway. Westbound traffic has no left turn signal at all. This setup can potentially cause yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

I know Alachua County, Florida seems to have converted at least 95% of PPLTs to them already, seemingly only leaving the old signals or structures that look like they wouldn't support an extra head or are scheduled for replacement (either through redesign of the intersection/road or just of the structure). Any area 100% converted?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 07, 2018, 03:16:24 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

No major urban area in Nevada, to my knowledge, is 100% converted to FYA.

Considering the major municipalities, Reno might be fully converted (I can't think of a doghouse within Reno limits) and Carson City is probably close, but I don't think either area has a whole lot of PPLT intersections. The Vegas area municipalities likely aren't close, although most of the agencies have done some conversions and FYA has been installed for all new PPLT situations since about 2011 or so.

Scanning a few of the smaller towns on Street View: Elko was mostly converted as of 2015; Winnemucca has a few along US 95, and those were converted by 2015; Fallon still has several doghouses along US 50 and hasn't converted anything as of 2016; Ely has one or two that might have converted by now. Most other smaller cities/towns with traffic signals don't use PPLT.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 07, 2018, 05:25:58 PM
In Washington...

Federal Way has completely converted to FYA (many which were previously protected-only).

Bellevue has no remaining 4-/5-section PPLT signals, as far as I know. Neighboring municipalities still have a few.

Lakewood converted the last of their 5-section doghouse signals to FYA in about a week's span a few years back.

Seattle is mostly FYA, but has a few yield-on-green PPLT signals remaining.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on January 08, 2018, 12:17:23 AM
Quote from: roadfro on January 07, 2018, 03:16:24 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

No major urban area in Nevada, to my knowledge, is 100% converted to FYA.

Considering the major municipalities, Reno might be fully converted (I can't think of a doghouse within Reno limits) and Carson City is probably close, but I don't think either area has a whole lot of PPLT intersections. The Vegas area municipalities likely aren't close, although most of the agencies have done some conversions and FYA has been installed for all new PPLT situations since about 2011 or so.

Scanning a few of the smaller towns on Street View: Elko was mostly converted as of 2015; Winnemucca has a few along US 95, and those were converted by 2015; Fallon still has several doghouses along US 50 and hasn't converted anything as of 2016; Ely has one or two that might have converted by now. Most other smaller cities/towns with traffic signals don't use PPLT.

Utah seems to be taking this conversion a lot slower than Nevada. Most of Utah seems to fall into the exact same boat as the Vegas area, but some cities have been very slow to switch (if at all), and UDOT still occasionally installs new left turn doghouses, mostly at intersections which previously had doghouses or when the existing mast arms are too short to allow for a new FYA. At most/all completely new signals, FYA is almost always used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 23, 2018, 07:17:54 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?

It was a protected left up until last year. The majority of traffic here turns left ontp the bridge and the protected left caused traffic backups.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on January 23, 2018, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

There's probably a few areas in the Peoria IDOT District getting close. 

On the Missouri side of the St. Louis area the state routes are getting close to fully converted.  The local signals though are not being upgraded as fast.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 03, 2018, 10:19:01 AM
Massachusetts is in the middle of a project to install flashing yellow arrows, two will go up in my town. The near town of Lexington MA has gotten many already and now is installing their own with new installations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mark68 on October 04, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Parker, Colorado still loves doghouses. I've not seen any FYAs yet.

Most surrounding areas are using FYAs in new installations, but older installations with doghouses are not being changed out...at least not very quickly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 04, 2018, 02:37:17 PM
Quote from: Mark68 on October 04, 2018, 12:50:01 PM
Parker, Colorado still loves doghouses. I've not seen any FYAs yet.

Most surrounding areas are using FYAs in new installations, but older installations with doghouses are not being changed out...at least not very quickly.

The way most agencies use FYAs (lead/lead), there's hardly any difference in operation between the two. When you start getting into lead/lag operation, that's where you see the advantage (and when cities seriously need to consider the FYA).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on October 04, 2018, 06:00:51 PM
I was floating around on the 'net and came across this...

It looks like it's from the early 1970's. This is on Broad St (US 250) in Richmond. Has anyone else seen a signal like this? Maybe it was a prototype or something.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181004/0851931a69fd17944fd35548a2677e52.jpg)

SM-S820L

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: corco on October 04, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

I know Alachua County, Florida seems to have converted at least 95% of PPLTs to them already, seemingly only leaving the old signals or structures that look like they wouldn't support an extra head or are scheduled for replacement (either through redesign of the intersection/road or just of the structure). Any area 100% converted?

Ada County, Idaho (Boise) has substantially finished converting. There might be a couple doghouses left but I have no idea where they are. It's definitely more than 95%. One of the elected officials here exclusively ran on a pro-FYA platform and has successfully pushed hard for a rapid conversion
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 04, 2018, 06:44:18 PM
Quote from: plain on October 04, 2018, 06:00:51 PM
I was floating around on the 'net and came across this...

It looks like it's from the early 1970's. This is on Broad St (US 250) in Richmond. Has anyone else seen a signal like this? Maybe it was a prototype or something.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181004/0851931a69fd17944fd35548a2677e52.jpg)

Woah! That's very cool. I have never seen anything like that. More than likely the first "FYA" (or "FAA", as it were). Seems that "yield" would have fit better than "with caution", but I appreciate old verbiage.

Quote from: corco on October 04, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

I know Alachua County, Florida seems to have converted at least 95% of PPLTs to them already, seemingly only leaving the old signals or structures that look like they wouldn't support an extra head or are scheduled for replacement (either through redesign of the intersection/road or just of the structure). Any area 100% converted?

Ada County, Idaho (Boise) has substantially finished converting. There might be a couple doghouses left but I have no idea where they are. It's definitely more than 95%. One of the elected officials here exclusively ran on a pro-FYA platform and has successfully pushed hard for a rapid conversion

Goes to show just how important traffic flow is to various electorates around the country.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on October 04, 2018, 10:21:02 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 04, 2018, 06:44:18 PM
Quote from: plain on October 04, 2018, 06:00:51 PM
I was floating around on the 'net and came across this...

It looks like it's from the early 1970's. This is on Broad St (US 250) in Richmond. Has anyone else seen a signal like this? Maybe it was a prototype or something.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181004/0851931a69fd17944fd35548a2677e52.jpg)

Woah! That's very cool. I have never seen anything like that. More than likely the first "FYA" (or "FAA", as it were). Seems that "yield" would have fit better than "with caution", but I appreciate old verbiage.

I've never seen this either. It comes from the Richmond Times-Dispatch's archives but naturally there's not much of a description with it smdh. I want to know the story behind it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on October 21, 2018, 08:20:28 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.

I remember the first time I saw it, I was shocked, and I thought to myself "why would you let cars turn when there's both a green light and arrow for opposing traffic?" I still feel weird pulling into the intersection on a flashing yellow while the through light is red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.

Do you mean with a doghouse? Otherwise normal operation. Since left turns don't interfere with oncoming lefts, there's no reason not to allow it. Also permits lead/lag without dedicated turn lanes.

Minnesota has used the setup before:

https://youtu.be/onyZQcgkMOw

Also Wisconsin:

https://youtu.be/A_L0EMMptRg
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Eth on October 21, 2018, 09:46:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.

Do you mean with a doghouse? Otherwise normal operation. Since left turns don't interfere with oncoming lefts, there's no reason not to allow it. Also permits lead/lag without dedicated turn lanes.

No, there was no doghouse at this intersection. For the left turn lane, it was a standard four-arrow setup (red; yellow; flashing yellow, which was active; green), and a normal three-ball setup for the through lane (which was showing red). Basically exactly as US 89 described above. (For anyone in the area, this is on US 278 westbound at GA 155 southbound.)

There is also, at a different intersection a couple miles away, a doghouse setup like in your Minnesota example with both a solid and a flashing yellow but no green arrow, though in that case there is no adjacent four-arrow signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
I see. All you're describing is a lead/lag flashing yellow arrow. Since the turns don't conflict with one another, there's no reason for the red arrow to stay lit.

Here's a video I made a while back of signal near me with lead/lag operation:

https://youtu.be/_idz1QzWQtg
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on October 23, 2018, 01:37:53 PM
Quote from: corco on October 04, 2018, 06:27:56 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?

I know Alachua County, Florida seems to have converted at least 95% of PPLTs to them already, seemingly only leaving the old signals or structures that look like they wouldn't support an extra head or are scheduled for replacement (either through redesign of the intersection/road or just of the structure). Any area 100% converted?

Ada County, Idaho (Boise) has substantially finished converting. There might be a couple doghouses left but I have no idea where they are. It's definitely more than 95%. One of the elected officials here exclusively ran on a pro-FYA platform and has successfully pushed hard for a rapid conversion

There's 2 intersections on Franklin Rd, at Benjamin Ln and at the driveway into the shopping center and the Wendy's. There may be more out there, but those are the only two I can think of for sure.

EDIT: Also State St at 15th, 16th, and 27th St.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on October 23, 2018, 01:59:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
I see. All you're describing is a lead/lag flashing yellow arrow. Since the turns don't conflict with one another, there's no reason for the red arrow to stay lit.

Here's a video I made a while back of signal near me with lead/lag operation:

https://youtu.be/_idz1QzWQtg

There are some agencies that won't run the flashing yellow arrow unless the adjacent thru green is on.  I do know the policy can be problematic in lag/lag FYA operation as it prevents the lagging left turns from split phasing (IE. the lagging lefts must come up every time to prevent a yellow trap since they don't allow the FYA to be displayed when the adjacent thru signal is red). 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 23, 2018, 02:22:58 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on October 23, 2018, 01:59:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 11:14:11 PM
I see. All you're describing is a lead/lag flashing yellow arrow. Since the turns don't conflict with one another, there's no reason for the red arrow to stay lit.

Here's a video I made a while back of signal near me with lead/lag operation:

https://youtu.be/_idz1QzWQtg

There are some agencies that won't run the flashing yellow arrow unless the adjacent thru green is on.  I do know the policy can be problematic in lag/lag FYA operation as it prevents the lagging left turns from split phasing (IE. the lagging lefts must come up every time to prevent a yellow trap since they don't allow the FYA to be displayed when the adjacent thru signal is red).

I remember you mentioning that before. What a dumb policy. May as well use standard 4-/5-section heads. That said, I wasn't actually familiar with any jurisdictions that used that policy. Apparently parts of GA use it?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on October 23, 2018, 02:58:01 PM
^I'll just say it's a conservative policy.   And it goes without saying that the agency favors leading FYA over lagging to avoid any yellow trap scenarios (the few lagging FYAs out in the field are forced to cycle).   I can't give you a great explanation to why the policy is in place to begin with.  My guess is the agency just thinks it looks "odd"  when the flashing yellow arrow is on while the adjacent thru is red.  I know in Canada a rapid flashing green ball indicates a protected movement so maybe someone from Canada may just see the flashing yellow arrow for the left turn and assume it's some type of protected movement?  I'm really grasping at straws though.  The funny thing is surrounding agencies do allow the FYA to be on when the adjacent thru is red, and there doesn't seem to be much issue at those locations.  I just think people get stuck in their ways.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 23, 2018, 04:41:03 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on October 23, 2018, 02:58:01 PM
^I'll just say it's a conservative policy.   And it goes without saying that the agency favors leading FYA over lagging to avoid any yellow trap scenarios (the few lagging FYAs out in the field are forced to cycle).   I can't give you a great explanation to why the policy is in place to begin with.  My guess is the agency just thinks it looks "odd"  when the flashing yellow arrow is on while the adjacent thru is red.  I know in Canada a rapid flashing green ball indicates a protected movement so maybe someone from Canada may just see the flashing yellow arrow for the left turn and assume it's some type of protected movement?  I'm really grasping at straws though.  The funny thing is surrounding agencies do allow the FYA to be on when the adjacent thru is red, and there doesn't seem to be much issue at those locations.  I just think people get stuck in their ways.

I definitely don't doubt its conservative nature. Seems almost too conservative. You can run with lagging phasing without cycling. You just have to dedicate the time that might be dedicated to protected lefts to through traffic. Seems odd, but as long as there's occasional gaps, you can still clear traffic. The issue is that even those signals need a tipping point. I guess it just has to be really high during off-peak times to avoid unnecessary lagging green arrows.

Flashing green orbs for protected lefts are used in Ontario only, and I'm not sure they're used anymore. That said, flashing green arrows are used pretty much country-wide. As someone who extensively drives in both BC and WA, the latter of which has many flashing yellow arrows, I haven't personally noticed any major issues with misinterpretation. But then again, outside of a few locales in the Seattle metro, most use leading lefts. But none prohibit the FYA during the oncoming protected left (should someone arrive too late to activate their own protected left).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on October 23, 2018, 08:11:02 PM
I'm surprised at the county that won't display an FYA while the thru reds are lit. The original purpose of the FYA was for exactly that configuration. To replace the green-ball over the left-turn lane while the thru heads displayed red in a set-up known as "Dallas Phasing". That's the exact situation the FYA was created for.

What's interesting though is some states are finding creative uses for the FYA. New York City is using it to protect bike lanes and crosswalks against drivers making turns. And as many have noted it's commonly being used to replace doghouses over left-turn lanes.

But solving the "Dallas Phasing" issue was the original concept. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on October 24, 2018, 07:49:03 AM
I notice PennDOT beginning to use three-segment FYAs without green arrows in places where they may want to put a protected turn in the future. You have one of these on US 422 at Locust Street in Myerstown (just west of PA 501). Before FYAs, they'd either put up a third standard signal or just have a longer mast arm with a blank spot over the turning lane. It doesn't seem like they're using this greenless FYA for all unprotected turning lanes, since they didn't put them in for Ramona Road when they redid that intersection just a bit west of this one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Eth on October 24, 2018, 10:15:08 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on October 23, 2018, 08:11:02 PM
I'm surprised at the county that won't display an FYA while the thru reds are lit. The original purpose of the FYA was for exactly that configuration. To replace the green-ball over the left-turn lane while the thru heads displayed red in a set-up known as "Dallas Phasing". That's the exact situation the FYA was created for.

What's interesting though is some states are finding creative uses for the FYA. New York City is using it to protect bike lanes and crosswalks against drivers making turns. And as many have noted it's commonly being used to replace doghouses over left-turn lanes.

But solving the "Dallas Phasing" issue was the original concept. 

Yeah, now that y'all say this, it makes sense. But having never seen this before, my assumption the whole time has just been "oh, this is just what we're doing now instead of doghouses, okay".

Not the first time my state has been backward on something, and surely won't be the last.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on October 24, 2018, 04:34:48 PM
Well Eth, to take your statement even further, if it were not for the internet and these kinds of forums, I wouldn't know about any of this stuff either and I would have made the same assumption you did about FYA just being the new current practice.

BTW, if you do a Google search for "Dallas Phasing" you can find some good video, illustrations and explanations of how it looked and operated. Then you'll see the purpose of the FYA even better.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on October 24, 2018, 04:44:03 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on October 24, 2018, 04:34:48 PM
Well Eth, to take your statement even further, if it were not for the internet and these kinds of forums, I wouldn't know about any of this stuff either and I would have made the same assumption you did about FYA just being the new current practice.

BTW, if you do a Google search for "Dallas Phasing" you can find some good video, illustrations and explanations of how it looked and operated. Then you'll see the purpose of the FYA even better.

No need to do a Google search.  Just stay right here on the forum (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=2271.msg51810#msg51810)!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on October 24, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 24, 2018, 10:15:08 AM
Not the first time my state has been backward on something, and surely won't be the last.

I take the fact that Georgia has adopted the FYA as a sign of progress. Put it this way: I won't be complaining about their FYA treatments, when there are ugly BGSs (who needs series EM when you have D?) to look at, and when every US highway is on a useless (but fully signed) multiplex with some GA state route.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 24, 2018, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: US 89 on October 24, 2018, 05:21:07 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 24, 2018, 10:15:08 AM
Not the first time my state has been backward on something, and surely won't be the last.

I take the fact that Georgia has adopted the FYA as a sign of progress. Put it this way: I won't be complaining about their FYA treatments, when there are ugly BGSs (who needs series EM when you have D?) to look at, and when every US highway is on a useless (but fully signed) multiplex with some GA state route.

I wouldn't go that far. If they're running them in the exact same manner as a 5-section left turn signal, they've just done a lateral; different signal display but no advantage.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: freebrickproductions on November 02, 2018, 01:17:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.

Do you mean with a doghouse? Otherwise normal operation. Since left turns don't interfere with oncoming lefts, there's no reason not to allow it. Also permits lead/lag without dedicated turn lanes.

Minnesota has used the setup before:

https://youtu.be/onyZQcgkMOw

Also Wisconsin:

https://youtu.be/A_L0EMMptRg
Atlanta, GA also has quite a few FYA doghouses around the city that I observed while I was there in 2016.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 02, 2018, 03:04:36 AM
Quote from: freebrickproductions on November 02, 2018, 01:17:16 AM
Atlanta, GA also has quite a few FYA doghouses around the city that I observed while I was there in 2016.

This was what I originally thought Eth was referring to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadwarriors79 on November 03, 2018, 11:24:21 AM
Is this common on overhead signals in NYC? This video clip is for an intersection in Staten Island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9w5iwcZGJg
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 03, 2018, 05:09:14 PM
Quote from: Roadwarriors79 on November 03, 2018, 11:24:21 AM
Is this common on overhead signals in NYC? This video clip is for an intersection in Staten Island.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9w5iwcZGJg

Yes, but it's mainly used for pedestrian/bicycle conflicts instead of oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on November 05, 2018, 04:08:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 21, 2018, 09:08:39 PM
Quote from: Eth on October 21, 2018, 07:59:03 PM
Forgive me if this has been mentioned previously; it's a bit of a long thread.

A new FYA was activated near me in the last week or two. I was driving through it today and encountered a situation I've never seen before: a flashing yellow left arrow in conjunction with a red ball (and a green for oncoming traffic). Has anyone ever seen that before? I guess this would be the first time I've actually seen an FYA accomplish something that couldn't be done with a doghouse.

Do you mean with a doghouse? Otherwise normal operation. Since left turns don't interfere with oncoming lefts, there's no reason not to allow it. Also permits lead/lag without dedicated turn lanes.

Minnesota has used the setup before:

https://youtu.be/onyZQcgkMOw

Also Wisconsin:

https://youtu.be/A_L0EMMptRg

Completely random sidenote, but the Wisconsin video was filmed by me, I have a nicer camera now, would any of you like me to try to obtain some better footage of the two FYA doghouse setups in Eau Claire? The 3 videos I have were filmed with my phone.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 05, 2018, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on November 05, 2018, 04:08:29 PM
Completely random sidenote, but the Wisconsin video was filmed by me, I have a nicer camera now, would any of you like me to try to obtain some better footage of the two FYA doghouse setups in Eau Claire? The 3 videos I have were filmed with my phone.

I intended to give you credit, but I could not remember or find your username. Was hoping you might spot me sharing the video. I remember you mentioning the video on a comment on one of my YouTube videos, which is how I found it.

Would definitely like to see some new video! Those older videos are definitely a little shaky. Try and find a small tripod. I have one with magnets on the legs, and I stick it sideways onto various poles.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on November 07, 2018, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 05, 2018, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on November 05, 2018, 04:08:29 PM
Completely random sidenote, but the Wisconsin video was filmed by me, I have a nicer camera now, would any of you like me to try to obtain some better footage of the two FYA doghouse setups in Eau Claire? The 3 videos I have were filmed with my phone.

I intended to give you credit, but I could not remember or find your username. Was hoping you might spot me sharing the video. I remember you mentioning the video on a comment on one of my YouTube videos, which is how I found it.

Would definitely like to see some new video! Those older videos are definitely a little shaky. Try and find a small tripod. I have one with magnets on the legs, and I stick it sideways onto various poles.

I have a tripod that I use for my other hobby of recording outdoor warning sirens, and I recently purchased a Canon PowerShot camera, so I hope to get some nice footage when I am home from college next. I would change my username on here, however I have not figured out how to do so.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 07, 2018, 04:24:51 PM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on November 07, 2018, 03:58:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 05, 2018, 06:09:58 PM
Quote from: JMAN12343610 on November 05, 2018, 04:08:29 PM
Completely random sidenote, but the Wisconsin video was filmed by me, I have a nicer camera now, would any of you like me to try to obtain some better footage of the two FYA doghouse setups in Eau Claire? The 3 videos I have were filmed with my phone.

I intended to give you credit, but I could not remember or find your username. Was hoping you might spot me sharing the video. I remember you mentioning the video on a comment on one of my YouTube videos, which is how I found it.

Would definitely like to see some new video! Those older videos are definitely a little shaky. Try and find a small tripod. I have one with magnets on the legs, and I stick it sideways onto various poles.

I have a tripod that I use for my other hobby of recording outdoor warning sirens, and I recently purchased a Canon PowerShot camera, so I hope to get some nice footage when I am home from college next. I would change my username on here, however I have not figured out how to do so.

Great to hear. Definitely looking forward to some new videos.

Contact an administrator. They can change your username. I had mine lengthen from "jake" as there was already a very well-known Jake on here, who did not use that username, but was none-the-less referred to by his first name.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on November 07, 2018, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 07, 2018, 04:24:51 PM
there was already a very well-known Jake on here, who did not use that username, but was none-the-less referred to by his first name.

Sorry if I still do refer to him as Jake.  Might get confusing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 07, 2018, 06:20:52 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 07, 2018, 04:30:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 07, 2018, 04:24:51 PM
there was already a very well-known Jake on here, who did not use that username, but was none-the-less referred to by his first name.

Sorry if I still do refer to him as Jake.  Might get confusing.

I've come to accept it. His contributions far outweigh any of mine! Never mind that he's been friends with the older bunch on here for as long as I've been alive.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 08, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?

Aren't shared left turn lanes are supposed to use Doghouses.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 08, 2018, 03:57:51 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 08, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?

Aren't shared left turn lanes are supposed to use Doghouses.

Basically any type of "yield on green" signal, but yes. In practice it seems to work okay. The Seattle example did replace a 4-section yield on green signal about 7 years ago.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on November 09, 2018, 07:32:53 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 08, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?

Aren't shared left turn lanes are supposed to use Doghouses.

I think so.

But the intersection has changed again, protected only dual left turn lanes

301 E 57th St
https://goo.gl/maps/Z1mEK7Gj9Fr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 09, 2018, 09:22:25 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on November 09, 2018, 07:32:53 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 08, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2018, 01:01:51 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 22, 2018, 11:37:55 PM
One of the few (if only) FYA left turn signals in NYC that functions as a true protected/permissive signal.

The signal on the mast arm has a modified doghouse setup for what is probably a clearance issue

320 E 57th St

https://goo.gl/maps/D347hTc4uG32

A double left too! I don't believe FYAs are allowed where the second left turn is an option lane, but I've seen Seattle use them for this purpose before: https://goo.gl/85DcUs

Looks like it was a protected left before?

Aren't shared left turn lanes are supposed to use Doghouses.

I think so.

But the intersection has changed again, protected only dual left turn lanes

301 E 57th St
https://goo.gl/maps/Z1mEK7Gj9Fr
A Flashing Yellow Arrow face (FYA) shall not be used if any of the following conditions exist:
The left turn has a lane shared with other movements (including a single-lane approach).
The permissive left turn must cross more than one stream of traffic.
The permissive left turn follows an unusual path.
Inadequate sight distance.
It is desired to protect a pedestrian phase from permissive left turns.

Example from the MUTCD
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4870/31933161928_32ac7d9910_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/QDPNvo)Screen Shot 2018-11-09 at 9.17.03 PM (https://flic.kr/p/QDPNvo) by Petru Sofio (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155056147@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on November 09, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Can you advise the section number where you found those rules about not using an FYA. I'm looking in my Manual but I don't see it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 10, 2018, 03:44:01 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 09, 2018, 09:22:25 PM
A Flashing Yellow Arrow face (FYA) shall not be used if any of the following conditions exist:
The left turn has a lane shared with other movements (including a single-lane approach).
The permissive left turn must cross more than one stream of traffic.
The permissive left turn follows an unusual path.
Inadequate sight distance.
It is desired to protect a pedestrian phase from permissive left turns.
Quote from: SignBridge on November 09, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Can you advise the section number where you found those rules about not using an FYA. I'm looking in my Manual but I don't see it.

I'm fairly certain Amtrakprod's statement does not appear in the national MUTCD. Trying to search for elements of the quoted text in Chapter 4D, my browser only found three instances of "stream" in the entire page (two as part of the word "downstream" and one in the section about preemption) and two instances of "unusual" (both in reference to allowing an option for flashing red arrows at places with unusual geometry). That said, such statements might be a local jurisdiction's policy or guidance...

Edited to fix quoting
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 10, 2018, 03:44:01 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 09, 2018, 09:22:25 PM
A Flashing Yellow Arrow face (FYA) shall not be used if any of the following conditions exist:
The left turn has a lane shared with other movements (including a single-lane approach).
The permissive left turn must cross more than one stream of traffic.
The permissive left turn follows an unusual path.
Inadequate sight distance.
It is desired to protect a pedestrian phase from permissive left turns.
Quote from: SignBridge on November 09, 2018, 09:49:02 PM
Can you advise the section number where you found those rules about not using an FYA. I'm looking in my Manual but I don't see it.

I'm fairly certain Amtrakprod's statement does not appear in the national MUTCD. Trying to search for elements of the quoted text in Chapter 4D, my browser only found three instances of "stream" in the entire page (two as part of the word "downstream" and one in the section about preemption) and two instances of "unusual" (both in reference to allowing an option for flashing red arrows at places with unusual geometry). That said, such statements might be a local jurisdiction's policy or guidance...


[/quote]

I was wondering about that myself, especially the last statement. Most permissive left turns are done when pedestrians have the right of way to walk across the intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I was wondering about that myself, especially the last statement. Most permissive left turns are done when pedestrians have the right of way to walk across the intersection.

With "yield on green" signals, yes. It's somewhat common in some Seattle-area suburbs for the red arrow to stay lit during the pedestrian phase, and is one of the specific advantages of the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 13, 2018, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I was wondering about that myself, especially the last statement. Most permissive left turns are done when pedestrians have the right of way to walk across the intersection.

With "yield on green" signals, yes. It's somewhat common in some Seattle-area suburbs for the red arrow to stay lit during the pedestrian phase, and is one of the specific advantages of the FYA.
I did find it on a yellow trap website, so it may not be reliable and the last one is a quote from another sentence I did not mean to add. It's found from this website: https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/fyacorct.htm
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 13, 2018, 09:14:58 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 13, 2018, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I was wondering about that myself, especially the last statement. Most permissive left turns are done when pedestrians have the right of way to walk across the intersection.

With "yield on green" signals, yes. It's somewhat common in some Seattle-area suburbs for the red arrow to stay lit during the pedestrian phase, and is one of the specific advantages of the FYA.
I did find it on a yellow trap website, so it may not be reliable and the last one is a quote from another sentence I did not mean to add. It's found from this website: https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/fyacorct.htm

Yeah, that's just this guy's opinion, not MUTCD guidance. He has some pretty wacky ideas if you look through his website (he opposes left lane laws and thinks everyone on a highway should travel at the same speed [nope, can't forsee any issues with that] and has a weird vendetta against cyclists).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 13, 2018, 10:28:51 PM
Quote from: NoGoodNamesAvailable on November 13, 2018, 09:14:58 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 13, 2018, 08:55:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 10, 2018, 06:42:32 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on November 10, 2018, 04:16:37 PM
I was wondering about that myself, especially the last statement. Most permissive left turns are done when pedestrians have the right of way to walk across the intersection.

With "yield on green" signals, yes. It's somewhat common in some Seattle-area suburbs for the red arrow to stay lit during the pedestrian phase, and is one of the specific advantages of the FYA.
I did find it on a yellow trap website, so it may not be reliable and the last one is a quote from another sentence I did not mean to add. It's found from this website: https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/fyacorct.htm

Yeah, that's just this guy's opinion, not MUTCD guidance. He has some pretty wacky ideas if you look through his website (he opposes left lane laws and thinks everyone on a highway should travel at the same speed [nope, can't forsee any issues with that] and has a weird vendetta against cyclists).

Oooh yeah, that does not look like a good website. Spouting a bunch of crap from the looks of it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on November 14, 2018, 10:20:31 AM
QuoteIf FYA exists on a road with left turns in both directions, FYA faces must exist in BOTH directions.
Exception: When an FYA face is not allowed in one direction, an Exclusively-Protected left-turn face must be used instead.

Why is this a problem? There's even an example of it in Salt Lake City: https://goo.gl/maps/didWxn695X42
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 14, 2018, 12:12:04 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 14, 2018, 10:20:31 AM
QuoteIf FYA exists on a road with left turns in both directions, FYA faces must exist in BOTH directions.
Exception: When an FYA face is not allowed in one direction, an Exclusively-Protected left-turn face must be used instead.

Why is this a problem? There's even an example of it in Salt Lake City: https://goo.gl/maps/didWxn695X42

The guy obviously has no idea what he's talking about. I don't see why this is an issue either, although I don't see why you wouldn't install it anyways and just run it permissive-only.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 17, 2018, 07:19:56 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 14, 2018, 10:20:31 AM
QuoteIf FYA exists on a road with left turns in both directions, FYA faces must exist in BOTH directions.
Exception: When an FYA face is not allowed in one direction, an Exclusively-Protected left-turn face must be used instead.

Why is this a problem? There's even an example of it in Salt Lake City: https://goo.gl/maps/didWxn695X42
He may have some good points, I do agree about the shared lane thing, but I definitely disagree with the FYA one direction rule and I do not like his haterd for bikes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JMAN_WiS&S on November 21, 2018, 06:33:56 PM
I was in town today so I setup my tripod in the passenger seat and filmed this. Unfortunately I was unable to witness the protected phase from either direction and I had places to be so I couldn't wait forever. I will surely be back at some point though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:19:17 PM
^ Seems that it is not a true FYA operation and there is no protected phase. This is consistent with MUTCD policy because there is not a dedicated left turn lane to control separately. So really the FYA implementation here is rather pointless.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on November 22, 2018, 12:06:37 AM
That FYA in the doghouse looks bi-modal, and also there's a standard 4-section FYA signal side mounted on the left (with a red arrow during the red phase no less). I'm thinking if there was a vehicle in the left lane during the red phase then that might trigger the protected turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 01:27:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:19:17 PM
^ Seems that it is not a true FYA operation and there is no protected phase. This is consistent with MUTCD policy because there is not a dedicated left turn lane to control separately. So really the FYA implementation here is rather pointless.

The implementation shown in the video was installed to allow pro/per lead/lag phasing with option lanes. The protected phase was not activated in the video, but it does exist.

I know it seems like a rather complex setup for something that may not be necessary, but credit for creativity must be given. I'm sure plenty of agencies considered what was installed here impossible for a long time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 07:02:20 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 01:27:17 AM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2018, 11:19:17 PM
^ Seems that it is not a true FYA operation and there is no protected phase. This is consistent with MUTCD policy because there is not a dedicated left turn lane to control separately. So really the FYA implementation here is rather pointless.

The implementation shown in the video was installed to allow pro/per lead/lag phasing with option lanes. The protected phase was not activated in the video, but it does exist.

I know it seems like a rather complex setup for something that may not be necessary, but credit for creativity must be given. I'm sure plenty of agencies considered what was installed here impossible for a long time.
It does exist, it's been shown in other videos.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 08:36:00 AM
I also had an idea to add in a sign about a law that many motorists do not understand.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4810/44183507320_bde77e64ab_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ajm2oY)Screen Shot 2018-11-22 at 8.33.35 AM (https://flic.kr/p/2ajm2oY) by Petru Sofio (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155056147@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
I’m fairly certain waiting in the intersection is legal in almost every state. Waiting in the intersection is actually a good practice for traffic flow, since it guarantees two cars will be able to turn left on the yellow light, even in heavy oncoming traffic. In Salt Lake, you’ll probably get honked at if you don’t pull forward.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 10:57:02 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
I'm fairly certain waiting in the intersection is legal in almost every state. Waiting in the intersection is actually a good practice for traffic flow, since it guarantees two cars will be able to turn left on the yellow light, even in heavy oncoming traffic. In Salt Lake, you'll probably get honked at if you don't pull forward.
Here's how the Department of Licensing interprets the law in the Driver Guide: "Drivers must not enter an intersection unless they can get through it without having to stop.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on November 22, 2018, 10:57:23 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
I'm fairly certain waiting in the intersection is legal in almost every state. Waiting in the intersection is actually a good practice for traffic flow, since it guarantees two cars will be able to turn left on the yellow light, even in heavy oncoming traffic. In Salt Lake, you'll probably get honked at if you don't pull forward.

No, it's not good practice. Waiting in the intersection creates gridlock. There's even a sign for reminding drivers of the prohibition, R10-7.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: vdeane on November 22, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
How does waiting in the intersection for a gap in oncoming traffic to make a turn create gridlock?  You're guaranteed to get a gap eventually - when the light goes red.  If you don't wait, however, you might never get to go if there is no protected phase.  Going into the intersection when the place you're headed to is blocked ("blocking the box"), on the other hand, is a big issue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on November 22, 2018, 11:21:48 AM
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
Going into the intersection when the place you're headed to is blocked ("blocking the box"), on the other hand, is a big issue.

This is what I was referring to. Sorry for any confusion. I read US 89's post wrong. :pan:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 11:32:52 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on November 22, 2018, 10:57:23 AM
Quote from: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
I'm fairly certain waiting in the intersection is legal in almost every state. Waiting in the intersection is actually a good practice for traffic flow, since it guarantees two cars will be able to turn left on the yellow light, even in heavy oncoming traffic. In Salt Lake, you'll probably get honked at if you don't pull forward.

No, it's not good practice. Waiting in the intersection creates gridlock. There's even a sign for reminding drivers of the prohibition, R10-7.
I think I prefer my sign:
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4810/44183507320_bde77e64ab_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ajm2oY)Screen Shot 2018-11-22 at 8.33.35 AM (https://flic.kr/p/2ajm2oY) by Petru Sofio (https://www.flickr.com/photos/155056147@N08/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 11:37:59 AM
Now I’m confused. Are we talking about waiting in the intersection for a gap in traffic to turn left, or are we talking about blocking the box? I see no problem with the former, while the latter causes significant issues.

If Amtrakprod’s original post was talking about blocking the box, there’s already a sign for that, as MNHighwayMan mentioned:

(https://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/do-not-block-intersection-sign-x-r10-7.png)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 02:04:42 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 11:37:59 AM
Now I'm confused. Are we talking about waiting in the intersection for a gap in traffic to turn left, or are we talking about blocking the box? I see no problem with the former, while the latter causes significant issues.

If Amtrakprod's original post was talking about blocking the box, there's already a sign for that, as MNHighwayMan mentioned:

(https://images.roadtrafficsigns.com/img/lg/X/do-not-block-intersection-sign-x-r10-7.png)
I was talking about waiting in the intersection for a gap in traffic


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
The only other sign I found similar is this one which I find dangerous: (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181122/00ea17ff7f74d3b0acd0406f6ac2f43a.jpg)


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Oh fuck not again. We've covered this extensively.

Waiting for a gap in the intersection is not illegal. Amtrakprod, a driver's guide is not a legally binding set of rules.

In states with restrictive yellow laws, you may be ticketed for being in the intersection on red. But it's only a few states, and even in those, it's not strictly illegal to wait in the intersection. Apparently you just have to find a gap before the end. Which is dumb but whatever.

In most states, the color of the signal is not relevant so long as you crossed the stop line on green or yellow, and that you leave when a gap is available. If you enter and cannot leave due to the desired road being saturated with cars, that's blocking the box and is ticketable.

The sign you posted (from Oregon, and one I posted previously) still permits waiting in the intersection, it just requires you to turn before the end. Again, still stupid, but whatever.

In Washington, some drivers pull forward, some don't. But it's very legal. In BC (and as in the rest of Canada), pulling forward is basically mandatory and you will be yelled and gestured at for not pulling forward.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tonytone on November 22, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Oh fuck not again. We've covered this extensively.

Waiting for a gap in the intersection is not illegal. Amtrakprod, a driver's guide is not a legally binding set of rules.

In states with restrictive yellow laws, you may be ticketed for being in the intersection on red. But it's only a few states, and even in those, it's not strictly illegal to wait in the intersection. Apparently you just have to find a gap before the end. Which is dumb but whatever.

In most states, the color of the signal is not relevant so long as you crossed the stop line on green or yellow, and that you leave when a gap is available. If you enter and cannot leave due to the desired road being saturated with cars, that's blocking the box and is ticketable.

The sign you posted (from Oregon, and one I posted previously) still permits waiting in the intersection, it just requires you to turn before the end. Again, still stupid, but whatever.

In Washington, some drivers pull forward, some don't. But it's very legal. In BC (and as in the rest of Canada), pulling forward is basically mandatory and you will be yelled and gestured at for not pulling forward.
why do certain dots make turning such a hard thing to do. Its simple & adding more signs like that, at an intersection will probably cause an accident, do you go or stop. Idk cause you cant turn on yellow.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:42:54 PM
Quote from: Tonytone on November 22, 2018, 03:37:27 PM
why do certain dots make turning such a hard thing to do. Its simple & adding more signs like that, at an intersection will probably cause an accident, do you go or stop. Idk cause you cant turn on yellow.

That is a great question! Signs like that do nothing but exacerbate backups and create anxiety.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 03:55:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Oh fuck not again. We've covered this extensively.

Waiting for a gap in the intersection is not illegal. Amtrakprod, a driver's guide is not a legally binding set of rules.

In states with restrictive yellow laws, you may be ticketed for being in the intersection on red. But it's only a few states, and even in those, it's not strictly illegal to wait in the intersection. Apparently you just have to find a gap before the end. Which is dumb but whatever.

In most states, the color of the signal is not relevant so long as you crossed the stop line on green or yellow, and that you leave when a gap is available. If you enter and cannot leave due to the desired road being saturated with cars, that's blocking the box and is ticketable.

The sign you posted (from Oregon, and one I posted previously) still permits waiting in the intersection, it just requires you to turn before the end. Again, still stupid, but whatever.

In Washington, some drivers pull forward, some don't. But it's very legal. In BC (and as in the rest of Canada), pulling forward is basically mandatory and you will be yelled and gestured at for not pulling forward.
Jake did you read my post, my drivers guide did state that waiting in the intersection is illegal


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
Ummm...

Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Amtrakprod, a driver's guide is not a legally binding set of rules.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Quote from: US 89 on November 22, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
Ummm...

Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
Amtrakprod, a driver's guide is not a legally binding set of rules.
Oops looks like I skimmed that section, my bad. Still trying to find a better source because it's not easy to search the MUTCD


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on November 22, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Oops looks like I skimmed that section, my bad. Still trying to find a better source because it's not easy to search the MUTCD

MUTCD isn't going to say anything either. You'd need to search each state's set of driving statutes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 06:26:33 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on November 22, 2018, 06:05:34 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 04:36:41 PM
Oops looks like I skimmed that section, my bad. Still trying to find a better source because it's not easy to search the MUTCD

MUTCD isn't going to say anything either. You'd need to search each state's set of driving statutes.
I know in IL it's illegal, anyways whether it's legal or not, is the sign clear?


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 06:26:33 PM
I know in IL it's illegal, anyways whether it's legal or not, is the sign clear?

I've never seen a legal statute that directly proclaimed waiting in the intersection to be illegal. You'll need to cite the IL book of laws if you intend to convince us.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 06:26:33 PM
I know in IL it's illegal, anyways whether it's legal or not, is the sign clear?

I've never seen a legal statute that directly proclaimed waiting in the intersection to be illegal. You'll need to cite the IL book of laws if you intend to convince us.
From the Chicago Tribute(https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2014-01-31-ct-schmich-met-0131-20140131-story.html) A while back I got a ticket for making a right turn in front of an interminably stopped bus. Part of my penance – yes, I repent – involved attending the traffic school administered by Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. I chose the four-hour online course, during which I stumbled upon this revelation about driving in Illinois:

"You should not proceed into the intersection on a green light until you see that you can safely make your turn."
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 7/8 on November 22, 2018, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 06:26:33 PM
I know in IL it's illegal, anyways whether it's legal or not, is the sign clear?

I've never seen a legal statute that directly proclaimed waiting in the intersection to be illegal. You'll need to cite the IL book of laws if you intend to convince us.
From the Chicago Tribute(https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2014-01-31-ct-schmich-met-0131-20140131-story.html) A while back I got a ticket for making a right turn in front of an interminably stopped bus. Part of my penance – yes, I repent – involved attending the traffic school administered by Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. I chose the four-hour online course, during which I stumbled upon this revelation about driving in Illinois:

"You should not proceed into the intersection on a green light until you see that you can safely make your turn."

That same article also says this:

QuoteTo be clear, and even though the online course doesn't tell you this: The law does, indeed, permit you to enter the intersection on green even if you can't immediately turn.

And, as several readers noted, it's legal to turn left on red if you're already in the intersection when the light changes.

It's interesting that new drivers in IL are taught not to enter the intersection. In Ontario, they teach us to enter the intersection (which I think is better since it guarantees that some drivers can make it through at the end of each cycle).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 10:16:17 PM
Quote from: 7/8 on November 22, 2018, 10:11:26 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 09:32:07 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 22, 2018, 07:27:05 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 06:26:33 PM
I know in IL it's illegal, anyways whether it's legal or not, is the sign clear?

I've never seen a legal statute that directly proclaimed waiting in the intersection to be illegal. You'll need to cite the IL book of laws if you intend to convince us.
From the Chicago Tribute(https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2014-01-31-ct-schmich-met-0131-20140131-story.html) A while back I got a ticket for making a right turn in front of an interminably stopped bus. Part of my penance – yes, I repent – involved attending the traffic school administered by Northwestern University's Center for Public Safety. I chose the four-hour online course, during which I stumbled upon this revelation about driving in Illinois:

"You should not proceed into the intersection on a green light until you see that you can safely make your turn."

That same article also says this:

QuoteTo be clear, and even though the online course doesn't tell you this: The law does, indeed, permit you to enter the intersection on green even if you can't immediately turn.

And, as several readers noted, it's legal to turn left on red if you're already in the intersection when the light changes.

It's interesting that new drivers in IL are taught not to enter the intersection. In Ontario, they teach us to enter the intersection (which I think is better since it guarantees that some drivers can make it through at the end of each cycle).
I'm predicting Illinois is trying to phase out that law, they do not make big changes a lot.
Title: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tonytone on November 22, 2018, 11:31:07 PM
I think those signs are more for people that try to turn left, AFTER the person who is in the intersection WAITING to turn, does so. (When the light is changing to red) People like to follow run the light when it turns yellow. But it may cause more issues, because some people get clusterfucked with alot of things to look at.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 23, 2018, 12:04:48 AM
I'm very confused that Illinois is even being mentioned here. I've driven in Chicago several times, and everyone pulls forward to wait to turn left. Anyone here can go onto Google Street View and see as much. It's one of the few jurisdictions I've driven in, besides California and British Columbia, where 100% of drivers pull forward to wait.

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 10:16:17 PM
I'm predicting Illinois is trying to phase out that law, they do not make big changes a lot.

What evidence do you have to support this? You know as well as I do that all drivers turn from the middle of the intersection in Illinois.

Quote from: 7/8 on November 22, 2018, 10:11:26 PM
It's interesting that new drivers in IL are taught not to enter the intersection. In Ontario, they teach us to enter the intersection (which I think is better since it guarantees that some drivers can make it through at the end of each cycle).

That online driving school is not representative of recommend practices. They are often the same test barely modified for each state. Obviously that section should have been removed as it is very legal and taught in most driving schools in the US.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:34:43 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 23, 2018, 12:04:48 AM
I'm very confused that Illinois is even being mentioned here. I've driven in Chicago several times, and everyone pulls forward to wait to turn left. Anyone here can go onto Google Street View and see as much. It's one of the few jurisdictions I've driven in, besides California and British Columbia, where 100% of drivers pull forward to wait.

Chicago has been famous for an absence of left-turn arrows, and even today they have very few of them.  If you want to drive in Chicago and not pull forward to wait for a gap–then your route had better not include any left turns!  It's common for three drivers to turn left as soon as the light turns red:  two waiting in the intersection, followed by one more who was behind the stop line but just can't bear the thought of waiting any longer.  It's even common out in the suburbs.

Quote from: Amtrakprod on November 22, 2018, 10:16:17 PM
I'm predicting Illinois is trying to phase out that law, they do not make big changes a lot.

Why are you predicting that?  Because of a newspaper article?  Because of driver's education recommendations?  None of those things have anything to do with state law.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on November 23, 2018, 10:21:22 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.
Maybe someday, the hawk will be like that lmao, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's out of the MUTCD this year.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on December 15, 2018, 11:59:37 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.

I've changed my mind on them since their introduction.  I think it's partially due to having one too many times of getting to a signal too late to trigger the green left turn arrow and having to wait a whole cycle, whereas I would have been able to make the turn had a FYA been present due to only being opposed by left turning vehicles and/or one or two through vehicles.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on December 16, 2018, 09:48:00 AM
I've never had a problem with them.  I've always likened them to and grew up with the flashing red balls on Michigan traffic lights.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on December 18, 2018, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on December 15, 2018, 11:59:37 AM
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.

I've changed my mind on them since their introduction.  I think it's partially due to having one too many times of getting to a signal too late to trigger the green left turn arrow and having to wait a whole cycle, whereas I would have been able to make the turn had a FYA been present due to only being opposed by left turning vehicles and/or one or two through vehicles.

I think a lot of the concern had to do with how other drivers would interpret the signal.  Would they interpret it as a right of way (like flashing yellow ball in many night-time flash signals)?  Would there be concerns of a perceived yellow trap (Drivers focusing their attention on the thru lights to presume that opposing traffic gets yellow ball at the same time as concurrent traffic)?  Over the test of time, these fears have been shown to be irrational and people have caught on to their true meaning.

It's just a matter of time before we make all the lefts FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 19, 2019, 08:35:20 PM
Time for an update as this thread has been inactive for a while. After a very slow start New York DOT's Region 10 on Long Island is now installing flashing-yellow arrows in a frenzy of new activity.

Two new signals at previously unsignaled intersections on N.Y. 106 (Newbridge Rd.) in Hicksville have them on both the state road AND coming out of the side street.

Also a rebuild of an existing signal at Newbridge Rd. and Duffy Ave. just south of the Hicksville train station. *******And in a surprising development that signal now includes so called Dallas Phasing using the FYA in place of the traditional green-ball, the first time I've ever seen that phasing in actual practice. What a surprise when I saw that FYA operating, simultaneously with red-balls showing over the thru lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 19, 2019, 10:45:15 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 19, 2019, 08:35:20 PM
And in a surprising development that signal now includes so called Dallas Phasing using the FYA in place of the traditional green-ball, the first time I've ever seen that phasing in actual practice. What a surprise when I saw that FYA operating, simultaneously with red-balls showing over the thru lanes.

You can still have the FYA active with a red through signal when the oncoming left has a green arrow. Or I'm guessing the FYA was active alongside a green through signal, before the through signal changed to red?

It is interesting how some parts of the country seem to have very little imagination. I've been seeing lead/lag FYA for years now. At least for as long as I've been driving.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 20, 2019, 06:47:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 19, 2019, 10:45:15 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 19, 2019, 08:35:20 PM
And in a surprising development that signal now includes so called Dallas Phasing using the FYA in place of the traditional green-ball, the first time I've ever seen that phasing in actual practice. What a surprise when I saw that FYA operating, simultaneously with red-balls showing over the thru lanes.

You can still have the FYA active with a red through signal when the oncoming left has a green arrow. Or I'm guessing the FYA was active alongside a green through signal, before the through signal changed to red?

It is interesting how some parts of the country seem to have very little imagination. I've been seeing lead/lag FYA for years now. At least for as long as I've been driving.
I would agree, I cannot name any Massachusetts Flashing Yellow Arrow intersection that uses lead-lag, I know they're 350 but I know at least 300. In fact the only signals I know that has lead-lag in MA are: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3973532,-71.1300862,3a,27.4y,319.82h,92.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqbLXFRINhdQdeOe7O09Vog!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
and https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4155253,-71.1533173,3a,75y,114.84h,91.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sDJVpcWRG-JnjlgaTPTCKww!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 20, 2019, 08:09:13 PM
Jakeroot, I think you just described Dallas Phasing.  The northbound signals went from thru green with FYA to thru-red with steady-red arrow (while cross traffic had the green) to thru-red with FYA while southbound had thru-green with green left-turn arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 20, 2019, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 20, 2019, 08:09:13 PM
Jakeroot, I think you just described Dallas Phasing.  The northbound signals went from thru green with FYA to thru-red with steady-red arrow (while cross traffic had the green) to thru-red with FYA while southbound had thru-green with green left-turn arrow.

Dallas Phasing wasn't really a phasing at all. It was just an operation style that allowed 5-section signals to operate independently of through signals, for the purpose of implementing lead/lag phasing with permissive lefts. Ostensibly, Dallas Phasing only exists to permit lead/lag operation, but Dallas Phasing, in and of itself, isn't lead/lag phasing.

What I was trying to describe was a situation where no one was in the left turn lane going one direction, but the opposite left turn lane was occupied. At the start of the phase, the oncoming direction would have both a green through and left turn signal, whereas the other direction would have a red through signal, but an FYA for the left turn since it can run independently. It looks like a lead/lag situation, but it was actually just a lead/lead signal without any cars to activate the green arrow, hence why it went straight to FYA while simultaneously holding through traffic during the oncoming protected left. I think there are places in the US that don't allow this, but I haven't driven anywhere that has. Certainly no such restrictions out west or in VA or DC.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 20, 2019, 09:30:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 20, 2019, 08:36:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 20, 2019, 08:09:13 PM
Jakeroot, I think you just described Dallas Phasing.  The northbound signals went from thru green with FYA to thru-red with steady-red arrow (while cross traffic had the green) to thru-red with FYA while southbound had thru-green with green left-turn arrow.

Dallas Phasing wasn't really a phasing at all. It was just an operation style that allowed 5-section signals to operate independently of through signals, for the purpose of implementing lead/lag phasing with permissive lefts. Ostensibly, Dallas Phasing only exists to permit lead/lag operation, but Dallas Phasing, in and of itself, isn't lead/lag phasing.

What I was trying to describe was a situation where no one was in the left turn lane going one direction, but the opposite left turn lane was occupied. At the start of the phase, the oncoming direction would have both a green through and left turn signal, whereas the other direction would have a red through signal, but an FYA for the left turn since it can run independently. It looks like a lead/lag situation, but it was actually just a lead/lead signal without any cars to activate the green arrow, hence why it went straight to FYA while simultaneously holding through traffic during the oncoming protected left. I think there are places in the US that don't allow this, but I haven't driven anywhere that has. Certainly no such restrictions out west or in VA or DC.
Yes, Dallas Phasing is the use of louvers over the green (and yellow) sections on a doghouse so the doghouse can remain green while the opposing direction has the left arrow to remove the yellow trap. The whole difference in whole can be very understandably  explained here:


The FYA use of the flashing yellow arrow while the red ball is just to prevent yellow trap, it's not Dallas phasing though, even though it performs the same task.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 21, 2019, 02:42:49 PM
^ Glad to see my PPLT explanatory video from nine years ago (*gasp!*) is still referenced online :)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2019, 03:30:44 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 21, 2019, 02:42:49 PM
^ Glad to see my PPLT explanatory video from nine years ago (*gasp!*) is still referenced online :)

It's a very well-made video! Damn near 90k views. Funny that it's mostly irrelevant now, though, since most Dallas-phased signals have been removed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on January 21, 2019, 04:45:22 PM
I saw something interesting last week - a FYA that didn't flash.

As I reached the intersection the light was red for my direction (thru and left turn).  An ambulance came through on the cross street.  When the light changed, the thru was green (even though that intersection has a leading protected left turn).  The left turn signal, a four-head, had a solid left turn arrow in the second from bottom position - the position that normally would flash.

I wonder if the ambulance had some kind of activation that would keep the cross street signal green for it, and when the controller took over from the special activation it malfunctioned slightly. 

I didn't stick around to see if the signal went to back to normal on the next cycle.  But it's been ok on other days I went that way.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2019, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: GaryV on January 21, 2019, 04:45:22 PM
I saw something interesting last week - a FYA that didn't flash.

Pretty much guaranteed that something went wrong. Was it displaying a solid yellow arrow?

I have seen a solid yellow arrow in the same lens as a flashing yellow arrow, but only as part of a three-section FYA, not four-section.

I do find it odd that the signal changed to green for your direction when an ambulance approached from a side-street. You'd think any sort of preemption system would keep their light green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: texaskdog on January 21, 2019, 05:11:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
How does waiting in the intersection for a gap in oncoming traffic to make a turn create gridlock?  You're guaranteed to get a gap eventually - when the light goes red.  If you don't wait, however, you might never get to go if there is no protected phase.  Going into the intersection when the place you're headed to is blocked ("blocking the box"), on the other hand, is a big issue.

sometimes there is never a break

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2019, 05:29:21 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on January 21, 2019, 05:11:40 PM
Quote from: vdeane on November 22, 2018, 11:07:39 AM
How does waiting in the intersection for a gap in oncoming traffic to make a turn create gridlock?  You're guaranteed to get a gap eventually - when the light goes red.  If you don't wait, however, you might never get to go if there is no protected phase.  Going into the intersection when the place you're headed to is blocked ("blocking the box"), on the other hand, is a big issue.

sometimes there is never a break

Note the bolded part.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 21, 2019, 07:44:23 PM
Quote from: GaryV on January 21, 2019, 04:45:22 PM
I saw something interesting last week - a FYA that didn't flash.

As I reached the intersection the light was red for my direction (thru and left turn).  An ambulance came through on the cross street.  When the light changed, the thru was green (even though that intersection has a leading protected left turn).  The left turn signal, a four-head, had a solid left turn arrow in the second from bottom position - the position that normally would flash.

I wonder if the ambulance had some kind of activation that would keep the cross street signal green for it, and when the controller took over from the special activation it malfunctioned slightly. 

I didn't stick around to see if the signal went to back to normal on the next cycle.  But it's been ok on other days I went that way.
Was this during rush hour? Many cities make the signal protective during rush hour.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 21, 2019, 08:52:11 PM
Emergency vehicles equipped with transmitters for traffic signal pre-emption is nothing new. I have seen them operate in some places and it does screw up the normal sequence of the signals in some cases. Although they must be helpful to emergency vehicles, they can cause havoc with the signal phasing and traffic flow after the vehicle passes thru. I've seen it create a confusing picture to approaching drivers, including myself.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on January 22, 2019, 10:37:02 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 21, 2019, 08:52:11 PM
Although they must be helpful to emergency vehicles
I question that. The ones near me seem to detect the vehicles too late to be useful. By the time the light actually pre-empts, the emergency vehicle is typically in the intersection already and it only seems to serve to delay traffic. I think the city figured it out, as I've noticed they've stopped installing them on new lights for the past couple years, and I think they actually turned them off on the old ones fairly recently, and they're supposedly working on a new solution (they currently use the strobe detectors).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on January 22, 2019, 05:02:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 21, 2019, 05:10:08 PM
Quote from: GaryV on January 21, 2019, 04:45:22 PM
I saw something interesting last week - a FYA that didn't flash.

Pretty much guaranteed that something went wrong. Was it displaying a solid yellow arrow?

I have seen a solid yellow arrow in the same lens as a flashing yellow arrow, but only as part of a three-section FYA, not four-section.

I do find it odd that the signal changed to green for your direction when an ambulance approached from a side-street. You'd think any sort of preemption system would keep their light green.

Correct, the 2nd from the bottom position showed a solid yellow arrow instead of flashing.
The light turned green for me after the ambulance had cleared.

Yes it was rush hour, but this intersection has FYA, with a leading protected green.  The leading green didn't happen, and then the FYA didn't flash.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 22, 2019, 09:11:47 PM
Quote from: GaryV on January 22, 2019, 05:02:01 PM
Yes it was rush hour, but this intersection has FYA, with a leading protected green.  The leading green didn't happen, and then the FYA didn't flash.

I see. Sounds like a programming error. You may want to contact the local public works agency to let them know what you saw, so they can check their end.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 02, 2019, 08:23:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 22, 2019, 09:11:47 PM
Quote from: GaryV on January 22, 2019, 05:02:01 PM
Yes it was rush hour, but this intersection has FYA, with a leading protected green.  The leading green didn't happen, and then the FYA didn't flash.

I see. Sounds like a programming error. You may want to contact the local public works agency to let them know what you saw, so they can check their end.
Jake, I saw my first (and second) lead-lag FYAs yesterday! I thought they were very nice: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6748061,-71.1279975,3a,30y,307.43h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNoDc9nP6yydujvmd5DzJFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
and https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6731414,-71.125743,3a,75y,309.2h,77.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skITWxE9NWJ5zZzyRNBRLGg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on May 01, 2019, 09:41:24 AM
I just got back from a few days around Natchitoches, Louisiana, and I didn't see any.  171 around Shreveport has a lot of doghouse signals, but no FYA's.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 06, 2019, 11:11:04 AM
There are two new FYA's in Portland, Maine - one at the intersection of Commercial St and the Casco Bay Bridge entrance, and another one on Forest Avenue at Baxter Blvd and Bedford St. More FYA's in Maine are slated to start appearing later this year, particularly in Sanford and Springvale later this year as part of a USDOT Build Grant project to replace Maine's aging traffic signal infrastructure.

The Commercial St example below still has a doghouse on the opposing direction, which still causes yellow trap on the doghouse side if the FYA is under phase skip. However, the leading left turn is only called or recycled if there is a line of cars (usually 5 or 6) on the FYA side and there are no cars on the side street.
(https://i.ibb.co/zQCdL5S/IMG-4014.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbdpYBH)

The Forest Street example utilises a single lead which replaced a protected-only signal that was in place.
(https://i.ibb.co/4fJ8xbL/IMG-4040.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xs31Qnb)

Also, do other states have restrictions on where FYA's can be placed? I recently heard that MaineDOT policy mandates 24/7 protected only operation if a single-lane left turn crosses two or more opposing thru lanes, which means that any permissive movements are only allowed if the left turn crosses one opposing thru lane. I also noticed that although FYA's have started to appear in Maine, New Hampshire and Massachusetts, FYA's in NH and MA do not show the red arrow after the leading left turn expires, while in ME after the leading left turn, a red arrow is shown for a few seconds then FYA when the opposing movement is released.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.

My concern with the FYA has been in regards to safety.  When it was introduced in SE Michigan, there was roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FMCFYA2_zpsd7aed911.jpg%3Ft%3D1377098616&hash=5acfd0c0720169ed4efc582e33bf0864bdcaea21)

IMO, the FYA isn't inherently dangerous, but the added flexibility the FYA provides can add confusion to drivers.  If the signal operation is like-for-like after the FYA install i wouldn't expect much change in the crash rate, but that's often not the case.  Even though the FYA solves the "yellow trap" problem, "perceived yellow traps" should be avoided whenever possible.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on May 06, 2019, 04:34:33 PM
Just make every permissive turn a leading turn and not a lagging turn, like Illinois does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 06, 2019, 04:34:33 PM
Just make every permissive turn a leading turn and not a lagging turn, like Illinois does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How are we to say that it's working? Last I checked, Chicago does not do well in the "worst traffic" rankings. Lead/lag signals are a rather important asset.

Quote from: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
My concern with the FYA has been in regards to safety.  When it was introduced in SE Michigan, there was roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).

Interesting. Data from Federal Way, WA, which extensively utilises lead/lag FYA, touts impressive safety improvements over the protected lefts they replaced. I think property damage went up a bit, but injuries dropped. The link to the study is buried in some government website that I'll try and find ASAP.

Quote from: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
IMO, the FYA isn't inherently dangerous, but the added flexibility the FYA provides can add confusion to drivers.  If the signal operation is like-for-like after the FYA install i wouldn't expect much change in the crash rate, but that's often not the case.  Even though the FYA solves the "yellow trap" problem, "perceived yellow traps" should be avoided whenever possible.

A massive issue, that very few states seem to recognize, is that left turn signals, especially permissive ones, need to be at eye level with oncoming traffic. Overhead-only displays force traffic to constantly dart back between looking at oncoming traffic and watching for a yellow light. Having only overhead displays almost certainly increases the likelihood that the only display drivers can see is the one in their upper right peripheral vision. That's unacceptable. Left turn lights need to be right in line with oncoming traffic, so drivers can minimise the amount of darting they need to do.

Interestingly, the two jurisdictions in WA that most heavily use the FYA (Bellevue and Federal Way) both require secondary left turn signal displays on the left mast or pole. I'm going to assume that if their experience showed a poor safety record, they wouldn't continue to install them. They both must have several hundred between the two of them.

In British Columbia, there is always a secondary signal on the left (at every intersection, even those without left turns). They go a step further and mount those displays at the same level as the pedestrian heads. Judging by the number of permissive lefts (probably 99% of all single lane lefts), they must be working well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SoCal Kid on May 06, 2019, 07:08:57 PM
Theres a flashing yellow turn signal a block from my neighborhood lol
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on May 06, 2019, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
A massive issue, that very few states seem to recognize, is that left turn signals, especially permissive ones, need to be at eye level with oncoming traffic. Overhead-only displays force traffic to constantly dart back between looking at oncoming traffic and watching for a yellow light. Having only overhead displays almost certainly increases the likelihood that the only display drivers can see is the one in their upper right peripheral vision. That's unacceptable. Left turn lights need to be right in line with oncoming traffic, so drivers can minimise the amount of darting they need to do.
Interesting, I feel like I see more post-mounted heads for through movements (rather than lefts).  Maybe I drive through them more than I realize and just don't notice.  As far as I know the MUTCD always calls these optional.  Here are some relevant docs:
https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/development_left_turn_operations_guidelines_yu.pdf
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/conventional/signalized/fhwasa13027/ch5.cfm#s521

I'm not sure I buy that a post-mounted head to the left is more in the drivers' line of sight.  Just picking a random spot in Bellevue: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6210741,-122.2014786,3a,45.8y,272.17h,89.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRcEb_TCem3rxM_JNXhW4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 
The head over the lane seems a lot closer to where I need to look (for opposing through vehicles) than the one to the left.

I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but for you to call the standard MUTCD setup "unacceptable" seems ... exaggerated at best.  Maybe you know of safety studies or other data about these heads? 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 10:53:09 PM
Quote from: johndoe on May 06, 2019, 08:02:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
A massive issue, that very few states seem to recognize, is that left turn signals, especially permissive ones, need to be at eye level with oncoming traffic. Overhead-only displays force traffic to constantly dart back between looking at oncoming traffic and watching for a yellow light. Having only overhead displays almost certainly increases the likelihood that the only display drivers can see is the one in their upper right peripheral vision. That's unacceptable. Left turn lights need to be right in line with oncoming traffic, so drivers can minimise the amount of darting they need to do.
Interesting, I feel like I see more post-mounted heads for through movements (rather than lefts).  Maybe I drive through them more than I realize and just don't notice.  As far as I know the MUTCD always calls these optional.  Here are some relevant docs:
https://nacto.org/docs/usdg/development_left_turn_operations_guidelines_yu.pdf
https://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/conventional/signalized/fhwasa13027/ch5.cfm#s521

Yes, they're optional on a federal level, but a requirement at local levels.

Requirements for pole-mounted signals on either side seem to be the result of two different rulings: when they're required on the right, it's probably for visibility requirements, such as on truck-heavy routes (see this example in WA (http://bit.ly/2H3DliV)). Requirements for signals on the left seem to be, more often than not, the result of similar requirements, but also when two signals are required for every movement. It stands to reason that most single-lane left turns probably don't have enough mast-arm space to cram in two left turn signals overhead, without ignoring the 8-foot rule, so they end up on a pole on the left. Bellevue's are the result of this kind of rule. Glare is also a major issue for overhead signals. The engineer in Federal Way has indicated to me that this was a big reason that he chose to begin requiring supplemental displays.

Quote from: johndoe on May 06, 2019, 08:02:18 PM
I'm not sure I buy that a post-mounted head to the left is more in the drivers' line of sight.  Just picking a random spot in Bellevue: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6210741,-122.2014786,3a,45.8y,272.17h,89.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRcEb_TCem3rxM_JNXhW4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192 
The head over the lane seems a lot closer to where I need to look (for opposing through vehicles) than the one to the left.

Bellevue insists on mounting the left turn displays on the mast on the immediate left. This results in some intersections with left turn displays way off to the left (see here (http://bit.ly/2Y7JEYH)). Federal Way has stricter requirements, with many being much closer to the through-lanes and crosswalk ramp.

I think it's important to note what it is that drivers need to be looking for. Of course we need to watch for oncoming vehicles, but we also need to watch for pedestrians. Although this particular left turn (below) does not have a pedestrian crossing along the left side of the intersection, the box below highlights how far left (especially on approach) drivers should be looking (the box is smaller on the right to highlight that oncoming traffic is smaller, the further away it is). If there was no display on the left side of this intersection, drivers would have to spend a bit too much time looking off to the right, when they need to be looking down. Even in this case, the pole-mounted display is not within my box, but it's much closer to that area where attention should be focused, with slim chances of it being disregarded should it turn red.

(https://i.imgur.com/HacOQU9.jpg)

It's also important to consider that Street View doesn't necessarily give us the whole picture (no pun intended). In-real-life, more often than not, left turners pull forward into the intersection when yielding. Depending on vehicle placement, this may result in serious neck-straining; because the windshield only goes so far back, things that are "above" a driver get harder to see, the closer you get to them. In this case, it's much easier to see a pole-mounted signal. At this left turn in Arlington, VA (http://bit.ly/2VgzXu1), note that an extra left turn display is used on the far corner, because the overhead signal would be virtually impossible to see from any left turn position within the intersection. A similar issue can be seen at this intersection in Bothell, WA (http://bit.ly/2V4d3Rz). The cone-of-vision usually dictates when an extra display needs to be used, but these cones don't seem to take into account those drivers who pull forward to wait (everyone in most areas I drive in).

Quote from: johndoe on May 06, 2019, 08:02:18 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with the idea, but for you to call the standard MUTCD setup "unacceptable" seems ... exaggerated at best.  Maybe you know of safety studies or other data about these heads?

What tends to "grind my gears" is when an agency changes how a signal operates, without fully exploring all possible options for improving any actual, or perceived, issues with the current operation. An option that, IMO, isn't exploited enough, is the placement of additional signal displays. At the very least, they simply compound the requirement to yield. Nothing wrong with that.

I wish I had an actual study to back-up my claims here. These are just things that I've noticed while out driving. But my point, really, is that we shouldn't simply give up if we have trouble with crashes and whatnot. Try everything you can think of. Engineers seem to give-in too quickly. Sure, there's rules out there, and an engineer puts themselves in an actionable position if they choose to break the rules. But, at least in terms of secondary and auxiliary signal displays, I don't know of any jurisdiction that bans them, so that's at least one thing that could be played with.

FWIW, I cannot find any signal design manuals that actually indicate why secondary or auxiliary signal displays would be required in their respective jurisdiction, beyond cone-of-vision requirements. For the British Columbia manual (http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/publications/eng_publications/electrical/electrical_and_traffic_eng/2004-Electrical_Signing_Design_Manual/Section%20400/Section%20400.pdf), the rules (starting at page 78) are very specific, with the constant requirement being that a secondary display on the far-left corner must be used. The problem is, the BC MOTI doesn't actually indicate why those are the requirements. The TxDOT document you linked to above spells out some reasons, but I don't believe that's an official guideline that any particular jurisdiction is using.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on May 07, 2019, 10:40:00 AM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
Quote from: kphoger on November 23, 2018, 09:37:02 AM
Is it my bad memory, or did a lot of people on here dislike the introduction of the FYA nine years ago or whenever that was?  I don't hear anybody complain about them anymore, though.

My concern with the FYA has been in regards to safety.  When it was introduced in SE Michigan, there was roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FMCFYA2_zpsd7aed911.jpg%3Ft%3D1377098616&hash=5acfd0c0720169ed4efc582e33bf0864bdcaea21)

IMO, the FYA isn't inherently dangerous, but the added flexibility the FYA provides can add confusion to drivers.  If the signal operation is like-for-like after the FYA install i wouldn't expect much change in the crash rate, but that's often not the case.  Even though the FYA solves the "yellow trap" problem, "perceived yellow traps" should be avoided whenever possible.

Interesting stat, considering Michigan had the flashing red ball for decades, prior to phasing in/converting to FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 07, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 10:53:09 PM
I think it's important to note what it is that drivers need to be looking for. Of course we need to watch for oncoming vehicles, but we also need to watch for pedestrians.

For some intersections, there is always going to be some darting if the driver is watching for both oncoming vehicles, oncoming pedestrians, and pedestrians coming from the same direction as the driver.  US 14 at Wilke Road in Arlington Heights, IL, (https://goo.gl/maps/YkqiYERxfF6kvcvd9) may be a good example where this would be a problem if a protected-permitted display was used for the EB left instead of protected only.

Quote from: johndoe
    I'm not sure I buy that a post-mounted head to the left is more in the drivers' line of sight.  Just picking a random spot in Bellevue: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6210741,-122.2014786,3a,45.8y,272.17h,89.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRcEb_TCem3rxM_JNXhW4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
    The head over the lane seems a lot closer to where I need to look (for opposing through vehicles) than the one to the left.

I was thinking at first the setup for Longmeadow Parkway at Sleepy Hollow Road in Algonquin, IL, (https://goo.gl/maps/1HuoFkr4AsK2Qh2j7) was what was meant.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 07, 2019, 11:09:27 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 07, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 10:53:09 PM
I think it's important to note what it is that drivers need to be looking for. Of course we need to watch for oncoming vehicles, but we also need to watch for pedestrians.

For some intersections, there is always going to be some darting if the driver is watching for both oncoming vehicles, oncoming pedestrians, and pedestrians coming from the same direction as the driver.  US 14 at Wilke Road in Arlington Heights, IL, (https://goo.gl/maps/YkqiYERxfF6kvcvd9) may be a good example where this would be a problem if a protected-permitted display was used for the EB left instead of protected only.

Maybe it depends on driver training? Barely any protected left turns in BC, outside of super-busy arterials, so teaching drivers how to handle "yield" signals is a pretty major part of driving courses.

I can think of several important arterials in Vancouver that run at angles through grid areas (Kingsway being the big one), and the 90-degree intersections don't seem to have any fewer crashes (according to ICBC). Seems to be more about volume than angle. If we look at this particular intersection in Surrey, BC (http://bit.ly/2H9tYxd), which has two sharp left turns and no protected phase (at all), we can see how the overhead signal is helpful when looking downstream for oncoming cars, and the left-side green orb signal helpful for when looking for pedestrians.

Quote from: Revive 755 on May 07, 2019, 05:56:44 PM
Quote from: johndoe
I'm not sure I buy that a post-mounted head to the left is more in the drivers' line of sight.  Just picking a random spot in Bellevue: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6210741,-122.2014786,3a,45.8y,272.17h,89.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRcEb_TCem3rxM_JNXhW4g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
The head over the lane seems a lot closer to where I need to look (for opposing through vehicles) than the one to the left.

I was thinking at first the setup for Longmeadow Parkway at Sleepy Hollow Road in Algonquin, IL, (https://goo.gl/maps/1HuoFkr4AsK2Qh2j7) was what was meant.

I'm not a particularly big fan of that, on account of visual clutter (given the extra mast arm). But I highly prefer it to having only one display, directly in front of the left turn lane.

California does a great job with their signal placement. Virtually all far-left corner signals are right next to the oncoming lane of traffic (http://bit.ly/2PRNQJ2).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
My concern with the FYA has been in regards to safety.  When it was introduced in SE Michigan, there was roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).

Interesting. Data from Federal Way, WA, which extensively utilises lead/lag FYA, touts impressive safety improvements over the protected lefts they replaced. I think property damage went up a bit, but injuries dropped. The link to the study is buried in some government website that I'll try and find ASAP.

Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 10, 2019, 11:39:49 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 06, 2019, 11:11:04 AM
Also, do other states have restrictions on where FYA's can be placed? I recently heard that MaineDOT policy mandates 24/7 protected only operation if a single-lane left turn crosses two or more opposing thru lanes, which means that any permissive movements are only allowed if the left turn crosses one opposing thru lane. I also noticed that although FYA's have started to appear in Maine, New Hampshire and Massachusetts, FYA's in NH and MA do not show the red arrow after the leading left turn expires, while in ME after the leading left turn, a red arrow is shown for a few seconds then FYA when the opposing movement is released.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...

I think you'll find that states'/local agencies' guidelines on when to use protected or permitted left turn varies widely.

For example, most agencies in Nevada will allow permitted lefts with FYAs across three opposing lanes. In the Vegas area, you'll see permitted lefts allowed where opposing traffic speed limit is as high as 45mph–in the Reno area, it's generally rare to have permitted lefts across anything posted higher than 35.

Also, you'll almost never see an FYA at dual left turns in Nevada (I thought this was explicitly not allowed, but I have come across an instance of a dual left with FYAs in south Reno). But some agencies in other states have this as a semi-regular occurence.


Also, the MUTCD does not mandate that the red arrow come on between the protected and permitted phases. Some agencies prefer that the red arrow display, some don't–I can understand arguments either way.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on May 10, 2019, 01:57:16 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on May 06, 2019, 01:15:08 PM
My concern with the FYA has been in regards to safety.  When it was introduced in SE Michigan, there was roughly a 30% increase in injury accidents at FYA installs (and a 75% increase in head-on left-turn accidents which can be directly attributed to the left-turn signal phase operation).

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi478.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Frr144%2Ftradephoric%2FTransportation%2520Pictures%2FRandom%2FMCFYA2_zpsd7aed911.jpg%3Ft%3D1377098616&hash=5acfd0c0720169ed4efc582e33bf0864bdcaea21)

IMO, the FYA isn't inherently dangerous, but the added flexibility the FYA provides can add confusion to drivers.  If the signal operation is like-for-like after the FYA install i wouldn't expect much change in the crash rate, but that's often not the case.  Even though the FYA solves the "yellow trap" problem, "perceived yellow traps" should be avoided whenever possible.

Did you factor in any change in traffic counts at those locations?  Raw total numbers don't mean very much if traffic counts changed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on May 10, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 06, 2019, 06:06:33 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 06, 2019, 04:34:33 PM
Just make every permissive turn a leading turn and not a lagging turn, like Illinois does ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How are we to say that it's working? Last I checked, Chicago does not do well in the "worst traffic" rankings. Lead/lag signals are a rather important asset.

Lagging left turns aren't a valuable asset if they lead to yellow trap!  Make the thru signals (ball indications) in opposite directions turn red at the same time, and there is no yellow trap.  Or at least you have that good old Midwestern understanding that the left turners floating in the box (middle of the intersection) get to vacate once the thru traffic clears.  Just watch any Illinois intersection with permissive left turns.

(Idk what you mean by "it's working"--seems like an argument against logic itself.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on May 10, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on May 10, 2019, 01:57:16 PM
Did you factor in any change in traffic counts at those locations?  Raw total numbers don't mean very much if traffic counts changed.

The majority of those FYA installs were done between 2008-2010.  All i can say is that the great recession hit this region hard and traffic counts were down across the board during that time.

Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 10, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
Lagging left turns aren't a valuable asset if they lead to yellow trap!  Make the thru signals (ball indications) in opposite directions turn red at the same time, and there is no yellow trap.  Or at least you have that good old Midwestern understanding that the left turners floating in the box (middle of the intersection) get to vacate once the thru traffic clears.  Just watch any Illinois intersection with permissive left turns.

(Idk what you mean by "it's working"--seems like an argument against logic itself.)

The FYA essentially has gotten rid of the yellow trap even under lagging left turns (or lead-lag).  The problem is there are a lot of low IQ drivers out there.  They see that the adjacent through is terminating and automatically assume the opposing through has to stop too (even when their left is still flashing yellow arrow).  So while technically not a yellow-trap, it's what's known as a perceived yellow trap because drivers just don't know any better.  Rightly or wrongly, a lot of agencies don't like flashing the FYA when the adjacent through is red.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on May 10, 2019, 08:53:59 PM
Tradephoric, that situation you describe: flashing yellow with adjacent reds (aka Dallas Phasing) is the specific situation that the FYA was designed to address. The FYA replaces the green-ball that many drivers used to think was the same as a green-arrow when displayed over the left lane only. The purpose of the FYA being to alert left-turning drivers that they can turn with caution, that they do not have right-of-way as with a green-arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on May 11, 2019, 10:31:52 AM
^ Don't worry, Tradephoric is well aware of the FYA's purpose.

Quote from: tradephoric on May 10, 2019, 05:50:03 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on May 10, 2019, 03:10:56 PM
Lagging left turns aren't a valuable asset if they lead to yellow trap!  Make the thru signals (ball indications) in opposite directions turn red at the same time, and there is no yellow trap.  Or at least you have that good old Midwestern understanding that the left turners floating in the box (middle of the intersection) get to vacate once the thru traffic clears.  Just watch any Illinois intersection with permissive left turns.

(Idk what you mean by "it's working"--seems like an argument against logic itself.)

The FYA essentially has gotten rid of the yellow trap even under lagging left turns (or lead-lag).  The problem is there are a lot of low IQ drivers out there.  They see that the adjacent through is terminating and automatically assume the opposing through has to stop too (even when their left is still flashing yellow arrow).  So while technically not a yellow-trap, it's what's known as a perceived yellow trap because drivers just don't know any better.  Rightly or wrongly, a lot of agencies don't like flashing the FYA when the adjacent through is red.

Lead-lag phasing is one of the most effective tools in a traffic signal timing engineer's toolbox, because it can greatly increase the throughput of a coordinated signal corridor. One of the main benefits of the FYA display is to allow PPLT in this manner without introducing yellow trap (or having to modify/louver the doghouse and modify signal controller settings to introduce Dallas Phasing to achieve the same effect).

It is unfortunate that "perceived yellow trap" exists, because it really shouldn't–I wish these drivers knew better. I'd hazard a guess that this phenomenon is more prevalent in areas that haven't widely implemented lead-lag phasing, cause I have never seen this issue in Nevada–we had wide use of lead-lag (and Vegas also had a few intersections with Dallas Phasing) prior to FYA, so many drivers are used to left turns and adjacent through not always terminating together. Agencies not allowing the FYA to display with adjacent through red are basically accepting of potential increased delay and reduced capacity.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Tonytone on May 11, 2019, 11:21:17 AM
I feel like this should be updated to the "Flashing Red"


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on May 11, 2019, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...

Missouri generally treats it as a mandate to use protected only lefts when the left turn is opposed by three or more through lanes - see a little more than halfway down the page on http://epg.modot.org/index.php/902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_(MUTCD_Chapter_4D) (http://epg.modot.org/index.php/902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_(MUTCD_Chapter_4D)).

Illinois is similar, but appears to be more willing to allow exceptions than Missouri when a left turn crosses three opposing through lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on May 11, 2019, 01:05:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...

I checked through Utah's documentation on this, and it looks like protected lefts are required if there are at least 4 opposing lanes. They are also recommended if the opposing speed limit is equal or greater than 60 mph, though there is a bit of wiggle room based on the number of opposing lanes -- for example, SR 36 has several protected-permissive lefts across two 60mph opposing lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on May 11, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 11, 2019, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...

Missouri generally treats it as a mandate to use protected only lefts when the left turn is opposed by three or more through lanes - see a little more than halfway down the page on [ur]http://epg.modot.org/index.php/902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_(MUTCD_Chapter_4D)[/url].

Illinois is similar, but appears to be more willing to allow exceptions than Missouri when a left turn crosses three opposing through lanes.


New Jersey generally doesn't allow unprotected left turns across 3 or more lanes.  I won't say there aren't none at all, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any off the top of my head.  Across 2 lanes is common though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 11, 2019, 01:37:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on May 11, 2019, 01:30:27 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on May 11, 2019, 11:58:50 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 08, 2019, 08:05:55 AM
Are there any states that mandate protected-only signals 24/7 if the left turn crosses two or more lanes in the opposing direction? MaineDOT (and maybe NHDOT?) policy only allows FYA's to be installed if the turn crosses only one lane in the opposing direction...

Missouri generally treats it as a mandate to use protected only lefts when the left turn is opposed by three or more through lanes - see a little more than halfway down the page on [ur]http://epg.modot.org/index.php/902.5_Traffic_Control_Signal_Features_(MUTCD_Chapter_4D)[/url].

Illinois is similar, but appears to be more willing to allow exceptions than Missouri when a left turn crosses three opposing through lanes.


New Jersey generally doesn't allow unprotected left turns across 3 or more lanes.  I won't say there aren't none at all, but I'm having a hard time thinking of any off the top of my head.  Across 2 lanes is common though.
Speaking of which, any FYAs there yet?


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wxfree on July 14, 2019, 11:22:08 PM
I just remembered something, and it's one of the reasons I like the flashing yellow arrow.  When one side is given all green, circles and arrows, the yellow left arrow flashes for the other side, because that left turn doesn't conflict with the left turn protected by the green arrow on the other side.  Left turns have to yield to straight traffic going the other way, but it always does that with the flashing arrow, so there's no reason to wait for the green arrow on the other side to go away.  With the earlier arrangement, the direction opposite the greens had all reds.  At least that's the way it is most places I go.  One day I was first in line in a left turn lane, and I got a green circle with a red circle.  Traffic in the other direction had all greens.  I was allowed to turn left after yielding.  But I was unaccustomed to that configuration, the only time I'd ever seen green and red together was with a green arrow.  I almost mistakenly started my turn, in front of a hoard of cars that were about to start going.  The new configuration doesn't give green and red at the same time, it gives only one signal, which has less potential for confusion.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on July 14, 2019, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: wxfree on July 14, 2019, 11:22:08 PM
  One day I was first in line in a left turn lane, and I got a green circle with a red circle.  Traffic in the other direction had all greens.  I was allowed to turn left after yielding.  But I was unaccustomed to that configuration, the only time I'd ever seen green and red together was with a green arrow.  I almost mistakenly started my turn, in front of a hoard of cars that were about to start going.  The new configuration doesn't give green and red at the same time, it gives only one signal, which has less potential for confusion.
A red ball together with a green ball is against MUTCD rules:

MUTCD 4D.05

10 The following combinations of signal indications shall not be simultaneously displayed on any one signal face:

    CIRCULAR RED with CIRCULAR YELLOW;
    CIRCULAR GREEN with CIRCULAR RED; or
    Straight-through GREEN ARROW with CIRCULAR RED;
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: wxfree on July 14, 2019, 11:51:57 PM
Quote from: Big John on July 14, 2019, 11:32:02 PM
Quote from: wxfree on July 14, 2019, 11:22:08 PM
  One day I was first in line in a left turn lane, and I got a green circle with a red circle.  Traffic in the other direction had all greens.  I was allowed to turn left after yielding.  But I was unaccustomed to that configuration, the only time I'd ever seen green and red together was with a green arrow.  I almost mistakenly started my turn, in front of a hoard of cars that were about to start going.  The new configuration doesn't give green and red at the same time, it gives only one signal, which has less potential for confusion.
A red ball together with a green ball is against MUTCD rules:

MUTCD 4D.05

10 The following combinations of signal indications shall not be simultaneously displayed on any one signal face:

    CIRCULAR RED with CIRCULAR YELLOW;
    CIRCULAR GREEN with CIRCULAR RED; or
    Straight-through GREEN ARROW with CIRCULAR RED;

That's a good rule.  It must be why I never saw that configuration anywhere else.  The advantage I mentioned, replacing the simultaneous green and red circles, isn't really and advantage, since that isn't allowed, but it's kind of an advantage because it wouldn't be used with the new configuration, even in places where they don't care about that rule.  It didn't bother me that the old configuration I was familiar with (and was proper) didn't allow left turns when the other side had all greens, but the ability to allow left turns against all greens, without breaking the rules or confusing drivers, is a small advantage of the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on July 16, 2019, 11:48:19 PM
I don't know if this is news or not, but North Carolina is a state with many FYA's.  The southernmost traffic signal on US421 is an FYA signal:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48304304667_07ef8229ba_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gAubT6)
NC-YA (https://flic.kr/p/2gAubT6) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 16, 2019, 11:48:19 PM
I don't know if this is news or not, but North Carolina is a state with many FYA's.  The southernmost traffic signal on US421 is an FYA signal:

North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on July 17, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.

Speaking of double FYAs, I saw one in Vermont on Sunday up in St. Albans. It was operating in protected-only mode.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: cl94 on July 17, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.

Speaking of double FYAs, I saw one in Vermont on Sunday up in St. Albans. It was operating in protected-only mode.

Oddly enough, I actually ran into this one on Street View. I was reluctant to post it on my "double permissive left turn" thread because it appeared to be operating in protected-only mode.

Here's an older street view image that shows it operating in permissive mode, back in 2015: https://goo.gl/maps/L6RV297hAbsa793h7
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on July 19, 2019, 10:05:06 AM
Maybe I just haven't seen Pennsylvania's FYAs often enough to notice, but I found at least one intersection that seems to switch in and out of protected-only mode. At least, I presume it does. I've only been through it in protected-only mode, but it would seem silly to install FYA signals that never use the FYA.

PennDOT is using FYAs for Dallas phasing, though. I don't know if they were from start, but they are now. There's also at least one FYA signal without a green arrow (explicitly to allow Dallas phasing) on US 422 near Myerstown.

Now they just need to start using right turn FYAs. :P
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 19, 2019, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on July 19, 2019, 10:05:06 AM
Maybe I just haven't seen Pennsylvania's FYAs often enough to notice, but I found at least one intersection that seems to switch in and out of protected-only mode. At least, I presume it does. I've only been through it in protected-only mode, but it would seem silly to install FYA signals that never use the FYA.

PennDOT is using FYAs for Dallas phasing, though. I don't know if they were from start, but they are now. There's also at least one FYA signal without a green arrow (explicitly to allow Dallas phasing) on US 422 near Myerstown.

Now they just need to start using right turn FYAs. :P

Speaking of that, have there been any right turn FYA's that utilise any form of a leading pedestrian interval (LPI)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 19, 2019, 06:11:44 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 19, 2019, 12:30:45 PM
Speaking of that, have there been any right turn FYA's that utilise any form of a leading pedestrian interval (LPI)?

I believe some of the FYA's in New York, that turn across bike lanes, are protected-only during the WALK phase. I don't know if these are only used for left turns, or if there are any for right turns. I do know in WA that none of the turn signals that cross bike lanes have FYA's. All use protected-only phasing, or have no dedicated turn signal at all (opting for "YIELD TO BIKES/PEDS" signage).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on July 19, 2019, 09:08:16 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 19, 2019, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on July 19, 2019, 10:05:06 AM
Maybe I just haven't seen Pennsylvania's FYAs often enough to notice, but I found at least one intersection that seems to switch in and out of protected-only mode. At least, I presume it does. I've only been through it in protected-only mode, but it would seem silly to install FYA signals that never use the FYA.

PennDOT is using FYAs for Dallas phasing, though. I don't know if they were from start, but they are now. There's also at least one FYA signal without a green arrow (explicitly to allow Dallas phasing) on US 422 near Myerstown.

Now they just need to start using right turn FYAs. :P

Speaking of that, have there been any right turn FYA's that utilise any form of a leading pedestrian interval (LPI)?

This right turn signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7145707,-73.9529056,3a,15y,222.83h,88.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sD8jIQJw4qhs_9cICpBVKFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Brooklyn operates with an LPI, you can see it switching from the red arrow to the FYA interval moving forward in street view. The signal only protects pedestrians, there's no conflicting vehicular traffic for right turns.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on July 20, 2019, 12:16:32 PM
Urbana, Illinois, will be getting a number of FYA's on US 150, including a few three permissive-only heads.  I don't think I've seen the three-section permissive only heads on any other IDOT FYA installation, though Kane County has some installed or planned on/for Longmeadow Parkway.   Link to plans - the signal plans are on Sheets 267-315. (http://apps.dot.illinois.gov/eplan/desenv/080219/017-70B53/PLANS/)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 21, 2019, 05:01:19 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 19, 2019, 12:30:45 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on July 19, 2019, 10:05:06 AM
Maybe I just haven't seen Pennsylvania's FYAs often enough to notice, but I found at least one intersection that seems to switch in and out of protected-only mode. At least, I presume it does. I've only been through it in protected-only mode, but it would seem silly to install FYA signals that never use the FYA.

PennDOT is using FYAs for Dallas phasing, though. I don't know if they were from start, but they are now. There's also at least one FYA signal without a green arrow (explicitly to allow Dallas phasing) on US 422 near Myerstown.

Now they just need to start using right turn FYAs. :P

Speaking of that, have there been any right turn FYA's that utilise any form of a leading pedestrian interval (LPI)?



I had mentioned the signal at Venice/Robertson in another thread:

Quote

This is a relatively unique signal, but I'm familiar with another one in California.  It is unusual here, since this doesn't seem like an area with lots of pedestrian crossing, which is usually the reason for a right turn FYA.

The essence of this signal is that the right turns are controlled by this signal phase only, independent of the other signals that are showing.

Red ball - thru traffic must stop, but right turns are allowed after stop.  Yield to cross-traffic and cross-traffic pedestrians.  This light will be red at all times that the thru signals are red and (perhaps) even for a few seconds after thru signals get green to allow for a leading pedestrian interval (LPI).  The LPI is not perfect, since right turns are permitted on red in this jurisdiction.  (Many right turn FYAs have red arrow which effectively creates a no turn on red situation.)

Yellow arrow - signifies the clearance phase after a sold green arrow or a flashing yellow arrow

Flashing yellow arrow - denotes that right turns have to yield to pedestrians.  It is likely that this is only shown while adjacent thru traffic has green light and when the peds have pushed the button.

Green arrow - denotes protected right turn.  This will show when the corresponding left (cross-street) is a green arrow.  This may also show when adjacent thru has a green light and the peds have not pushed the button to cross.

Right turn FYA at Venice Blvd and Robertson, Los Angeles, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0282171,-118.3902918,3a,75y,354.93h,78.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s14_6FrmqaMIEnE9acN1kRQ!2e0!5s20190401T000000!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e3


Quote

I would assume that in both NY and CA (and probably WA as well) a flashing red arrow would also have the meaning of right turn permitted after stop, assuming you yield to whatever traffic actually has the right of way.  Curious as to why red orb is used instead of flashing red arrow.

In the L.A. example from above at Venice/Robertson, I can tell you that there is also a "right turn signal" sign.  This is because for parts of the signal cycle this red orb is lit, even though the through signal cycle has a straight green arrow.  This produces the lead pedestrian interval, right turn cannot simply go even though straight traffic can go.  Right turns must stop and yield (to pedestrians).  After a few seconds, they get a FYA - no need to stop on right turns, but must still yield to pedestrians who are now in the street for a while.  Then a solid yellow arrow to show that the right turn signal is ending and then a red ball again.

What I'm not sure about is what happens next.  I believe that the next phase of the signal is the left from Venice to Robertson [NO U TURN], which will produce a right green arrow as this is a complementary turn.  But I'm not sure is whether during this phase, the red orb is lit or not.  While it is common for many 5 aspect signals to have red orb with green right arrow, since this signal is meant to only control the right turn, I would think that the red orb with green arrow would be contradictory.  Regardless, a yellow arrow would follow green arrow and then back to red orb.

But what is important to point out is that in this case the red orb of the right turn signal is not always lit at the same times as the red orb of the thru signal.  Thru has red during the right turn protected phase.  RIght turns have red during the LPI.  When Venice has green, both thru and right signals facing Robertson have red orb.  I don't know if that's the case with the NY or WA signals, or whether the red orb is just meant, as Jake said, to provide another signal in case it's blocked by a truck.  In the WA and NY cases, there is no "right turn signal" sign.

I don't know if something like this is legal under the MUTCD - to have two separately timed red orb signals facing the same traffic.  I know there is a big push to get rid of "left turn signal" red orbs in places like VA and PA and replace those with red left arrows.  I don't know if the same exists with regard to these right turn signals.


A similar signal was installed at National/I-10 offramp/Overland and more information can be found here:

https://la.streetsblog.org/2019/07/10/it-took-a-village-to-make-this-overland-avenue-crosswalk-safer/

A clear variant of this would be to replace the red orb with a red arrow.  This would mean (in CA at least) that no turn on red could ever occur.  But it also provides for a perfect LPI.  During the first few seconds of the pedestrian walk phase, cars may not turn as they have a red arrow and not merely a red ball.

Los Angeles has another way of signaling the LPI.  The corner of 9th/Figueroa (one-way to one-way) left turn has a unique signaling.

Quote

Sorry to quote myself, but I've found some more information on another traffic light that has a similar set up, but the traffic light looks different, the Los Angeles red ball- red arrow light:

See the following GSV:  https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0462949,-118.2627263,3a,75y,113.31h,86.78t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUq9qzjI5CzhEJBHqMI8Nvw!2e0!5s20190301T000000!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en


OK, 9th (aka James Wood Blvd) is one-way eastbound and Figueroa is one way northbound.  On the right side of the view of the intersection approaching along 9th street, you see two tradional RYG signals.  On the left side, you have red ball-red left arrow-yellow ball-green ball.

1) While Figueroa has the green, 9th sees red ball and red arrow.
2) When Figueroa has the red, 9th sees a green ball, red arrow, and a WALK signal.
3) A few seconds later, 9th sees a green ball, and a WALK signal.

THere's also a sign at the corner, no left turn on red arrow.

Here is another example of a lead pedestrian interval (LPI), where the thru green time is maximized.  To at least partially protect pedestrian from turning cars, turning cars are prohibited from turning for the first few seconds of green, then a few seconds later, the left turners are allowed to turn, while yielding to pedestrians.  There is no protected left turn, hence no green arrow.


NOTE:  The signal in 2017 was signalized as R-RA-Y-G to provide the LPI.  More recent GSV images are showing that it is now a RA-YA-GA signal, which is more like a left turn phase completely separate from the peds, not just LPI. Oddly enough, in the latest 2019 images, it seems that the right turn from Figueroa to 9th has a 4-phase LPI, but I'm not sure of the singal timing.

Another example of R-RA-Y-G signal can be found on Sepulveda Blvd in Sherman Oaks.  Not sure if this is to emphasize NTOR, or whether this does in fact also signalize an LPI.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1525083,-118.4662799,3a,75y,9.29h,87.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sadjVfrNshkpP7pKFqI6rfA!2e0!5s20151101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en


As said above, NYC is using the FYA in a lot of LPI signalizations.  Remember that the general rule in NYC is no turn on red.  So a red arrow can delay turning during the beginning of the pedestrian cycle.  A flashing yellow arrow can be used for a warning to yield to peds when turning.  A green arrow can be used for a protected turn.  A solid yellow arrow can be used to denote the end of the flashing yellow or green phases.  In NYC, it's very rare to see a 4-aspect signal control the turning traffic against a pedestrian (or a bike lane).  Instead, you will usually see one of these two options: (1) a fully protected crossing will use RA-YA-GA, the turn phase is completely separate from the pedestrian phase.  This is very safe, but the downside is that there is less time for ped crossing and less time for turning.  This is used along the 9th Ave bike lane (the first major protected bike lane in NYC) from 14th to 23rd, and at the busier crossings, especially when there is a bike lane; (2) a split-phase signal will use RA-YA-FYA, which incorporates a more standard LPI.  This was done so that the pedestrians get a protected head start for a few seconds and then share the rest of the signal cycle with turning vehicles.  I don't believe that there is a protected turn at all for vehicles, as they can only turn during FYA and they must yield to any peds that are present.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 21, 2019, 06:19:46 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 21, 2019, 05:01:19 PM
A similar signal was installed at National/I-10 offramp/Overland and more information can be found here:

https://la.streetsblog.org/2019/07/10/it-took-a-village-to-make-this-overland-avenue-crosswalk-safer/

A clear variant of this would be to replace the red orb with a red arrow.  This would mean (in CA at least) that no turn on red could ever occur.  But it also provides for a perfect LPI.  During the first few seconds of the pedestrian walk phase, cars may not turn as they have a red arrow and not merely a red ball.

Los Angeles has another way of signaling the LPI.  The corner of 9th/Figueroa (one-way to one-way) left turn has a unique signaling.

Quote

Sorry to quote myself, but I've found some more information on another traffic light that has a similar set up, but the traffic light looks different, the Los Angeles red ball- red arrow light:

See the following GSV:  https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0462949,-118.2627263,3a,75y,113.31h,86.78t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sUq9qzjI5CzhEJBHqMI8Nvw!2e0!5s20190301T000000!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en


OK, 9th (aka James Wood Blvd) is one-way eastbound and Figueroa is one way northbound.  On the right side of the view of the intersection approaching along 9th street, you see two tradional RYG signals.  On the left side, you have red ball-red left arrow-yellow ball-green ball.

1) While Figueroa has the green, 9th sees red ball and red arrow.
2) When Figueroa has the red, 9th sees a green ball, red arrow, and a WALK signal.
3) A few seconds later, 9th sees a green ball, and a WALK signal.

THere's also a sign at the corner, no left turn on red arrow.

Here is another example of a lead pedestrian interval (LPI), where the thru green time is maximized.  To at least partially protect pedestrian from turning cars, turning cars are prohibited from turning for the first few seconds of green, then a few seconds later, the left turners are allowed to turn, while yielding to pedestrians.  There is no protected left turn, hence no green arrow.


NOTE:  The signal in 2017 was signalized as R-RA-Y-G to provide the LPI.  More recent GSV images are showing that it is now a RA-YA-GA signal, which is more like a left turn phase completely separate from the peds, not just LPI. Oddly enough, in the latest 2019 images, it seems that the right turn from Figueroa to 9th has a 4-phase LPI, but I'm not sure of the singal timing.

Another example of R-RA-Y-G signal can be found on Sepulveda Blvd in Sherman Oaks.  Not sure if this is to emphasize NTOR, or whether this does in fact also signalize an LPI.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1525083,-118.4662799,3a,75y,9.29h,87.26t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sadjVfrNshkpP7pKFqI6rfA!2e0!5s20151101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

I can see in the photos from that Streetsblog article that CalTrans, instead of replacing the pole-mounted signal on the far mast, they simply added another pole-mounted signal on the pedestrian signal pole to the right (next to two other pole-mounted signals). I think this is how it ought to be done more often. Having a right-side green orb is still important for visibility, even if a ped-specific signal is required.

Normally, I would prefer a red arrow for right-facing FYAs that also have a leading pedestrian interval. That way, a green orb could still be used for through signals, rather than changing the green orb signals out for green arrow signals (as CalTrans has done with their signal at Overland), and no "RIGHT TURN SIGNAL" sign would have to be used. But the setup used here does make sense for California, given the restriction on turning against red arrows (and I doubt CalTrans wants to prohibit them). States like Washington or Oregon could have used a red arrow without issue, though you'd still have issues with drivers waiting for the green, not knowing that it's OK to turn on a red arrow.

Related to the second half of your post, Spokane has used R-RA-Y-G signals before (well, once), for an LPI. Southbound Monroe St @ Fourth Ave:

https://goo.gl/maps/j1vM5Po7HMUX4wjd7

Interestingly, because turns (left & right) are allowed on red arrows up here, they've still had to install NTOR signage for the left turn because the left-facing arrow wouldn't actually prohibit the turn, even if the green orb was lit at the same time (though I'm sure many drivers would instinctively wait for the red arrow to disappear).

What I would like to see is some sort of video of these in operation. Do the red arrows just disappear? Very Australian, from what I've heard.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 22, 2019, 01:24:02 AM
A few years ago someone had asked about this intersection on the forum and I was able to use a GSV image to kind of do stop action motion picture on it.  Basically, the GSV car had fortunately crossed right at the beginning of the cycle, so it was clear as to how the signal operated.

I can't seem to recreate it.  It seems that the GSV car has been through that intersection 20 times and I can't find the sequence again.

Based on my recollection, the red arrow is always on when thru is red.  Then at the beginning of the 9th street phase, you have walk-green orb-red arrow.  At some point, the red arrow does vanish while the green orb is lit, but I'm not sure if this happens while walk is lit or during flashing don't walk.  The red arrow is not there during yellow orb.  The red arrow comes back when the red orb comes back.

Of course, keep in mind this signal is no longer in place at 9th/Figueroa as it was replaced by RA-YA-GA earlier this year as part of the "MyFigueroa" improvements.  So even if someone is reading this post now in the L.A. area, they can't film this for us as the signalization is historic.

There have been so many changes to this intersection over a small amount of time. 

[This signalization occurred after I left L.A.]

Baltimore has a unique way of doing an LPI.  Due to one-way streets, we are focusing on the left from Light to Pratt:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2865859,-76.6136071,3a,75y,168.73h,79.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKvvzUrf40ZOHwjoVdLjV2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The left signal is RA-RA-Y-G, the right two signals are standard R-Y-G.  When the phase for Light begins, the walk signal comes on and the two right greens are lit, but the two red arrows are also lit.  (This means peds may cross, and thru traffic may go, but no left turn on red.)  After a few seconds, the red arrows disappear.  I have personally driven through this corner many times and can tell you that this occurs while the walk signal is still lit, but FDW starts soon afterward.  There is no protected left - the left turners are delayed from turning at the beginning of the cycle and they can only turn by yielding to pedestrians.  Instead of a FYA, they have a green ball.

IMO, these are great ways of doing LPIs.  It's easy to design an LPI on the cheap by simply advancing the ped signal and maintaing a red for all vehicles.  But at least the DOTs in charge of these signals are doing their best to not delay the traffic that is not in conflict with the peds.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on July 25, 2019, 10:46:25 AM
Clinton, AR has FYA only signal
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 25, 2019, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 22, 2019, 01:24:02 AM
A few years ago someone had asked about this intersection on the forum and I was able to use a GSV image to kind of do stop action motion picture on it.  Basically, the GSV car had fortunately crossed right at the beginning of the cycle, so it was clear as to how the signal operated.

I can't seem to recreate it.  It seems that the GSV car has been through that intersection 20 times and I can't find the sequence again.

Based on my recollection, the red arrow is always on when thru is red.  Then at the beginning of the 9th street phase, you have walk-green orb-red arrow.  At some point, the red arrow does vanish while the green orb is lit, but I'm not sure if this happens while walk is lit or during flashing don't walk.  The red arrow is not there during yellow orb.  The red arrow comes back when the red orb comes back.

Of course, keep in mind this signal is no longer in place at 9th/Figueroa as it was replaced by RA-YA-GA earlier this year as part of the "MyFigueroa" improvements.  So even if someone is reading this post now in the L.A. area, they can't film this for us as the signalization is historic.

There have been so many changes to this intersection over a small amount of time. 

[This signalization occurred after I left L.A.]

Thank you for the information.

For some reason, I do find it interesting that a red arrow would just disappear. Sure, the green orb is on, but to have it expire into a green orb (and not a flashing yellow arrow or solid green arrow) seems really strange to me. I'm not trying to suggest that it wouldn't be allowed, just that it's unusual.

I clicked around a bunch at that 9th/Figueroa intersection, and I also cannot find the "disappearing" point. I see it deactivated far more often.

Quote from: mrsman on July 22, 2019, 01:24:02 AM
Baltimore has a unique way of doing an LPI.  Due to one-way streets, we are focusing on the left from Light to Pratt:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2865859,-76.6136071,3a,75y,168.73h,79.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKvvzUrf40ZOHwjoVdLjV2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The left signal is RA-RA-Y-G, the right two signals are standard R-Y-G.  When the phase for Light begins, the walk signal comes on and the two right greens are lit, but the two red arrows are also lit.  (This means peds may cross, and thru traffic may go, but no left turn on red.)  After a few seconds, the red arrows disappear.  I have personally driven through this corner many times and can tell you that this occurs while the walk signal is still lit, but FDW starts soon afterward.  There is no protected left - the left turners are delayed from turning at the beginning of the cycle and they can only turn by yielding to pedestrians.  Instead of a FYA, they have a green ball.

IMO, these are great ways of doing LPIs.  It's easy to design an LPI on the cheap by simply advancing the ped signal and maintaing a red for all vehicles.  But at least the DOTs in charge of these signals are doing their best to not delay the traffic that is not in conflict with the peds.

I saw those signals last time I was in Baltimore (about a month ago). Certainly pretty unique.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 27, 2019, 02:15:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 25, 2019, 05:43:08 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 22, 2019, 01:24:02 AM
Baltimore has a unique way of doing an LPI.  Due to one-way streets, we are focusing on the left from Light to Pratt:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2865859,-76.6136071,3a,75y,168.73h,79.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKvvzUrf40ZOHwjoVdLjV2w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The left signal is RA-RA-Y-G, the right two signals are standard R-Y-G.  When the phase for Light begins, the walk signal comes on and the two right greens are lit, but the two red arrows are also lit.  (This means peds may cross, and thru traffic may go, but no left turn on red.)  After a few seconds, the red arrows disappear.  I have personally driven through this corner many times and can tell you that this occurs while the walk signal is still lit, but FDW starts soon afterward.  There is no protected left - the left turners are delayed from turning at the beginning of the cycle and they can only turn by yielding to pedestrians.  Instead of a FYA, they have a green ball.

IMO, these are great ways of doing LPIs.  It's easy to design an LPI on the cheap by simply advancing the ped signal and maintaing a red for all vehicles.  But at least the DOTs in charge of these signals are doing their best to not delay the traffic that is not in conflict with the peds.

I saw those signals last time I was in Baltimore (about a month ago). Certainly pretty unique.

That is a bit odd. I'm guessing it's a green ball because of the shared left/thru lane. I'm not sure that it's MUTCD-kosher to terminate a circular green with a red arrow (I can't find a rule against it though). The operation seems like it would provide delay for thru traffic in the shared lane as well, and that aspect might not be in compliance with MUTCD either.

Also odd that this intersection has some signal heads on mast arms and others on a span wire, on both approaches. But in 2014 street views, the span wire signals are on separate masts on the right side that look like they were later removed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on July 27, 2019, 03:20:15 PM
In North Carolina, yes. They have become way more common. Not all of them are changed, just most of them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on July 27, 2019, 08:22:24 PM
Quote from: mrhappy1261 on July 27, 2019, 03:20:15 PM
In North Carolina ... Not all of them are changed, just most of them.

I find that exceedingly hard to believe.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 27, 2019, 10:07:02 PM
In New Hampshire, NHDOT is going to implement more Flashing Yellow Arrows along more of NHDOT maintained signals where permissive/protected left turn phasing is desirable. In some areas like on NH 106 and Regional Dr/Smokey Bear Blvd (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2081232,-71.4833258,3a,75y,181.42h,91.63t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1suATNF6VwdRxko82WE-BgtA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DuATNF6VwdRxko82WE-BgtA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D197.117%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), time of day (TOD) phasing is being implmented as the signal switches between protected-only during the rush hour and PPLT during off-peak times. I was also told that NHDOT intersections utilising FYA will use the standard 4-section heads, regardless if an approach with a left turn lane does not need a protected phase.

Concord, NH around 2017 redid Main Street in the downtown area which also included signal replacements in two locations: Centre St/Loudon Rd and on Pleasant St. Although Centre St/Loudon Rd  (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2083756,-71.5368829,3a,75y,2.49h,92.09t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfSr3sFKAee_jViynAB763A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DfSr3sFKAee_jViynAB763A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D120.55723%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1)is an exclusive pedestrian phase, all of the right turns on red are prohibited during the ped phase. On Pleasant St (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2043078,-71.5358479,3a,90y,132.11h,86.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sSAAbUnRjRB8j3VEt0IOaNA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DSAAbUnRjRB8j3VEt0IOaNA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D210.34474%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e1), an intersection utilising permissive only FYA heads, the signals for all directions remain red during the WALK phase, then goes to the permissive phase during the (flashing) DON'T WALK phase. This intersection used to use an exclusive ped phase, now pedestrian traffic crosses with the parallel traffic while utilising the LPI.

Also, with FYA installed, is a W25-1 or 2 sign neccessary? I noticed a few of these signs in Concord even with FYA signals on some intersections:

(https://i.ibb.co/1LCz3Zv/IMG-5261.jpg) (https://ibb.co/R9Xj12v)

(https://i.ibb.co/KrBKrxK/IMG-5265.jpg) (https://ibb.co/z4C64V6)

In the first two photos, I witnessed emergency vehicle preemption in action along US 3 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2263791,-71.555668,3a,90y,332.87h,86.2t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sL1idtin4FT0g5oQqSf2y6A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DL1idtin4FT0g5oQqSf2y6A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.TACTILE.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D8.242775%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656), which forced the signal to give a protected left turn on NB US 3 as an ambulence and a fire truck were responding to a medical emergency in the NH State Prison. However on SB US 3 as the first picture shows, the FYA for the left turn continued to flash yellow even as the oncoming thru traffic still had a green light. When the fire truck and ambulence left, the side street turned green for the approach leaving the NH State Prison only, and the other approach remained red. Since the FYA's were programmed correctly during phase skip and emergency vehicle preemption, and even though there is a yellow trap risk on the minor street approches which hardly recieves any traffic during preemption, is the W25-2 sign necessary?


(https://i.ibb.co/0mqq91D/IMG-5284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/17ZZXBv)

(https://i.ibb.co/tz5ZHFg/IMG-5282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1Mxs0j1)

(https://i.ibb.co/rw0Bjvr/IMG-5293.jpg) (https://ibb.co/P6j2LtH)

(https://i.ibb.co/0YqD6pL/IMG-5296.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BTLzQHJ)

On Main St and Pleasant St in Downtown Concord, I noticed an unusual type of preemption when a Concord police officer was in pursuit of another vehicle. Pleasant St traffic was being served when the police car requested ROW from N Main St. After an all-red phase, the signal was displaying these indications shown in the 2nd photo of the intersection (the one with the red left arrow and circular green) while the oncoming traffic was held with a red light. I'm not sure if the oncoming FYA was flashing during the preemption. Based on what I saw, and given how one approach on Pleasant St was a single lane permissive only approach, are these signs needed at this intersection to warn of emergency vehicle preemption? Note that the bottom FYA is not bimodal, it only operates on a permissive only mode.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 28, 2019, 02:23:05 AM
W25 signs say that oncoming traffic may have extended green.  STrictly speaking, they are not necessary for FYA.  However, if a FYA is being introduced in an area that is unfamiliar with FYA, it is probably a good idea.  It may help combat the "perceived yellow trap" problem, to the extent that it is a problem.

Yellow trap, of course is the problem that if you see in a tradtional intersection, is that if you see yellow orb and then red orb, you assume that opposing traffic also sees those phases at the same time and you will make your left at yellow or at the beginning of red because you assume oncoming traffic will stop.  If opposing traffic has a lagging signal, this may not be the case.  This type of signaling should be avoided at all costs.

FYA was designed to allow for the lagging lefts and avoiding the yellow trap problem.  Cars making a left turn are trained to focus only on their signal, not the orbs for adjacent traffic.  So while adjacent traffic goes to yellow orb and red orb, and opposing traffic maintains green orb, your signal continues flashing yellow arrow without change.  THis means that you are still yielding.  Only when opposing traffic gets a yellow org (you get a solid yellow arrow) and then a red orb (you get a solid red arrow) is it truly safe to make your turn because this is the end of the opposing green phase.

Yet, the concern is that even though a left turner is not supposed  to care about what adjacent traffic is doing, they may still be affected by it.  If they notice that adjacent traffic gets a yellow and they wrongfully assume that opposing traffic is also getting a yellow (they are not), notwithstanding that the left turner is facing a flashing yellow arrow, and the left turner decides to turn anyway, that is the perceived yellow trap.  This has been discussed on this board before, but I'm not so sure that this is a statistically significant problem.

In short, the signs are a good idea while the signal is new, but not strictly necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 28, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 27, 2019, 10:07:02 PM
Also, with FYA installed, is a W25-1 or 2 sign neccessary? I noticed a few of these signs in Concord even with FYA signals on some intersections:

It is possible the signs are required, based on the 2009 MUTCD Section 4D.05 Application of Steady Signal Indications
QuoteStandard:
03 Steady signal indications shall be applied as follows:
E. A steady YELLOW ARROW signal indication:
    5. Shall not be displayed to terminate a flashing arrow signal indication on an approach from which drivers are turning left permissively or making a U-turn to the left permissively unless one of the following conditions exists:
        a. A steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is also simultaneously being displayed to the opposing approach;
        b. An engineering study has determined that, because of unique intersection conditions, the condition described in Item (a) cannot reasonably be implemented without causing significant operational or safety problems and that the volume of impacted left-turning or U-turning traffic is relatively low, and those left-turning or U-turning drivers are advised that a steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is not simultaneously being displayed to the opposing traffic if this operation occurs continuously by the installation near the left-most signal head of a W25-1 sign (see Section 2C.48) with the legend ONCOMING TRAFFIC HAS EXTENDED GREEN; or
        c. Drivers are advised of the operation if it occurs only occasionally, such as during a preemption sequence, by the installation near the left-most signal head of a W25-2 sign (see Section 2C.48) with the legend ONCOMING TRAFFIC MAY HAVE EXTENDED GREEN.

So in the strictest sense, the W25 signs are not necessary under normal FYA operations. But if there is special sequencing used on occasion that will cause the solid yellow arrow to come on when the opposing through phase remains green, then the sign is necessary.


Note also that several W25 signs in your photos are incorrectly placed between through signal heads, when they are supposed to be next to the left-most turn signal head.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 28, 2019, 10:51:57 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 28, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
Note also that several W25 signs in your photos are incorrectly placed between through signal heads, when they are supposed to be next to the left-most turn signal head.

If that's the case, does this signal in Portland, ME (as well as a few on US-1 in Saco between Thornton Academy (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5044266,-70.4394363,3a,81.4y,218.13h,84.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soPNo5Ckgex2_TDCKKC6oTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and where ME-5 and 9 diverge (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5007799,-70.4431093,3a,43.7y,344.28h,98.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP6a9FgRaHXLFacu_JAJnhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)) have the W25 sign placed incorrectly? The Portland example shown here only activates during the sequence where yellow trap occurs.

(https://i.ibb.co/sjkMYSR/IMG-0550.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p2G9FDw)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on July 28, 2019, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 16, 2019, 11:48:19 PM
I don't know if this is news or not, but North Carolina is a state with many FYA's.  The southernmost traffic signal on US421 is an FYA signal:

North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.

Double FYA's?  What does that mean?  Two flashing yellow arrow indications on the same signal head?  Or both a right and left FYA?  Or something else entirely?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 29, 2019, 12:53:23 AM


Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 28, 2019, 10:51:57 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 28, 2019, 01:53:46 PM
Note also that several W25 signs in your photos are incorrectly placed between through signal heads, when they are supposed to be next to the left-most turn signal head.

If that's the case, does this signal in Portland, ME (as well as a few on US-1 in Saco between Thornton Academy (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5044266,-70.4394363,3a,81.4y,218.13h,84.46t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soPNo5Ckgex2_TDCKKC6oTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and where ME-5 and 9 diverge (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.5007799,-70.4431093,3a,43.7y,344.28h,98.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP6a9FgRaHXLFacu_JAJnhQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)) have the W25 sign placed incorrectly? The Portland example shown here only activates during the sequence where yellow trap occurs.

(https://i.ibb.co/sjkMYSR/IMG-0550.jpg) (https://ibb.co/p2G9FDw)

Per the standard, the sign in at least the ME-5/ME-9 example is incorrectly placed.

The W-25 series signs are really intended as a warning for left turning traffic. There is no reason for such signs to be posted further to the right over through lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 29, 2019, 01:01:20 AM


Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 28, 2019, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.
Double FYA's?  What does that mean?  Two flashing yellow arrow indications on the same signal head?  Or both a right and left FYA?  Or something else entirely?

Likely referring to a double left turn lane setup, which would like have two FYA signal heads (assuming a 'one signal head per lane' overhead installation style). Most states don't allow dual left turn lanes to operate in permitted mode, hence double FYAs being a rarity.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 29, 2019, 08:51:19 PM
On Long Island, N.Y. we have some dual left-turn lanes with side-by-side (similar to doghouse) signals over each lane with protected/permitted operation. The two left turn lanes typically cross two thru lanes in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 30, 2019, 12:31:44 AM
Quote from: roadfro on July 29, 2019, 01:01:20 AM
Quote from: paulthemapguy on July 28, 2019, 11:10:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 17, 2019, 03:55:47 PM
North Carolina's DOT is one of the few that I've seen to test double flashing yellow arrows. Individual cities sometimes install them, but NC is one of the few states to test them. Most state agencies don't permit them.
Double FYA's?  What does that mean?  Two flashing yellow arrow indications on the same signal head?  Or both a right and left FYA?  Or something else entirely?

Likely referring to a double left turn lane setup, which would like have two FYA signal heads (assuming a 'one signal head per lane' overhead installation style). Most states don't allow dual left turn lanes to operate in permitted mode, hence double FYAs being a rarity.

Indeed, thank you. I've learned that most states don't allow them, but individual cities (which have a great degree of operational freedom in most states, it would seem) are much more willing to try them out. WA's MUTCD supplement doesn't permit them, but there are several cities in WA which have installed them.

Quote from: SignBridge on July 29, 2019, 08:51:19 PM
On Long Island, N.Y. we have some dual left-turn lanes with side-by-side (similar to doghouse) signals with protected/permitted operation. The two left turn lanes typically cross two thru lanes in the opposite direction.

I only knew of one (can't remember the location...off the 495?). There's more?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Actually jakeroot, we're probably thinking of the same one at Exit-43 on the L.I.E. It's on S. Oyster Bay Rd. northbound right on top of the Expressway overpass controlling left turns from S.O.B. Rd. into the westbound Expwy. Service Road. I can't recall any others off hand but that one still exists. And BTW, that was installed by Nassau County DPW, not NYS DOT. As a general rule, NCDPW more commonly uses protected/permitted than NYS DOT does.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on July 30, 2019, 08:55:44 PM
PA is slowly getting more flashing yellow arrows.  Another one is being installed in the Philly area; ironically, it is at the other end of a road where the first FYA in the area was installed.

https://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/pages/details.aspx?newsid=4917
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 31, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Actually jakeroot, we're probably thinking of the same one at Exit-43 on the L.I.E. It's on S. Oyster Bay Rd. northbound right on top of the Expressway overpass controlling left turns from S.O.B. Rd. into the westbound Expwy. Service Road. I can't recall any others off hand but that one still exists. And BTW, that was installed by Nassau County DPW, not NYS DOT. As a general rule, NCDPW more commonly uses protected/permitted than NYS DOT does.

Ahh, yes, thank you. That's the famous one.

There's some more permissive double left action at the LIE and Kissena Blvd, although it involves an option lane plus a 4-section lagging green arrow (as far as I can tell). Still cool!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:15:44 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 31, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Actually jakeroot, we're probably thinking of the same one at Exit-43 on the L.I.E. It's on S. Oyster Bay Rd. northbound right on top of the Expressway overpass controlling left turns from S.O.B. Rd. into the westbound Expwy. Service Road. I can't recall any others off hand but that one still exists. And BTW, that was installed by Nassau County DPW, not NYS DOT. As a general rule, NCDPW more commonly uses protected/permitted than NYS DOT does.

Ahh, yes, thank you. That's the famous one.

There's some more permissive double left action at the LIE and Kissena Blvd, although it involves an option lane plus a 4-section lagging green arrow (as far as I can tell). Still cool!

There is the same setup at the LIE and 108th St; one left turn lane, one option lane, and one thru lane in each direction. Except that lagging FYAs (full FYAs, not a 3 section) replaced the 4-stacks previously used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 02, 2019, 03:52:37 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:15:44 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 31, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Actually jakeroot, we're probably thinking of the same one at Exit-43 on the L.I.E. It's on S. Oyster Bay Rd. northbound right on top of the Expressway overpass controlling left turns from S.O.B. Rd. into the westbound Expwy. Service Road. I can't recall any others off hand but that one still exists. And BTW, that was installed by Nassau County DPW, not NYS DOT. As a general rule, NCDPW more commonly uses protected/permitted than NYS DOT does.

Ahh, yes, thank you. That's the famous one.

There's some more permissive double left action at the LIE and Kissena Blvd, although it involves an option lane plus a 4-section lagging green arrow (as far as I can tell). Still cool!

There is the same setup at the LIE and 108th St; one left turn lane, one option lane, and one thru lane in each direction. Except that lagging FYAs (full FYAs, not a 3 section) replaced the 4-stacks previously used.

Those examples in Queens are ingenious.  There is no reason to prohibit the permissive double left, because the opposing traffic cannot turn left.  Opposing lefts usually pose a block in visibility, but they are not present here because of the one-way on-ramps.

Also, given the lefts, that lack opposing lefts, it is also safe (and preferred) to use lagging lefts, since no yellow trap would be present.  Left turns from both lanes can filter during green orb and get a protected signal at the end of the cycle.  It is especially important when using the option lane as any straight traffic behind a left turner would be able to go at the end of the cycle to clear the intersection.

And I also give credit for NYC for choosing to implement the option lane in the first place.  As this is a tight diamond interchange, it would be common that there are many cars turning left onto the freeway from both directions.  The single left turn lane is not enough, and if that were implemented there would be a long line of cars that would block the thru lane anyway.  By doing it this way, they can improve the throughput to allow two lanes onto the on-ramp (or the frontage road as in this particular case), fewer vehicles blocking the flow of traffic.

I think something like this would be a boon to anyplace with tight diamonds (or tight implementation of parclo b4s and other interchanges that rely heavily on opposing left turns) and should be implemented more broadly, whenever traffic routinely exceeds the capacity of the left turn pockets.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 02, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:15:44 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 31, 2019, 12:32:18 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 30, 2019, 08:44:09 PM
Actually jakeroot, we're probably thinking of the same one at Exit-43 on the L.I.E. It's on S. Oyster Bay Rd. northbound right on top of the Expressway overpass controlling left turns from S.O.B. Rd. into the westbound Expwy. Service Road. I can't recall any others off hand but that one still exists. And BTW, that was installed by Nassau County DPW, not NYS DOT. As a general rule, NCDPW more commonly uses protected/permitted than NYS DOT does.

Ahh, yes, thank you. That's the famous one.

There's some more permissive double left action at the LIE and Kissena Blvd, although it involves an option lane plus a 4-section lagging green arrow (as far as I can tell). Still cool!

There is the same setup at the LIE and 108th St; one left turn lane, one option lane, and one thru lane in each direction. Except that lagging FYAs (full FYAs, not a 3 section) replaced the 4-stacks previously used.

interesting. Flashing yellow arrows are usually supposed to be reserved for dedicated turn lanes. That said, I have seen them used for option lanes, as part of a 5-section display. I think it was Minnesota or Wisconsin that first did that. Do you happen to have any photos of the set-up? I can see it's not on street view.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on August 02, 2019, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2019, 03:57:38 PM

interesting. Flashing yellow arrows are usually supposed to be reserved for dedicated turn lanes. That said, I have seen them used for option lanes, as part of a 5-section display. I think it was Minnesota or Wisconsin that first did that.
It was Minnesota who first did that.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 02, 2019, 05:19:48 PM
Quote from: Big John on August 02, 2019, 04:13:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
interesting. Flashing yellow arrows are usually supposed to be reserved for dedicated turn lanes. That said, I have seen them used for option lanes, as part of a 5-section display. I think it was Minnesota or Wisconsin that first did that.

It was Minnesota who first did that.

I was thinking that. This one in Eden Prairie (https://goo.gl/maps/GufUVrdmtXBNoUu68), IIRC.

There are some older ones in Eau Claire, WI as well. This one at Farwell & Galloway (https://goo.gl/maps/irtoFXtHcugi2a8v9), for instance. Though unlike the Minnesota example, this one does not have two left turn lanes.

This double left in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/hNFGCnetYd3p4m9h8) has two regular flashing yellow arrow displays, next to two green orb displays. Not exactly a great setup, but the FYA does lag so there's no bizarre interim red phase that may create a conflict.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 02, 2019, 03:57:38 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:15:44 AM

There is the same setup at the LIE and 108th St; one left turn lane, one option lane, and one thru lane in each direction. Except that lagging FYAs (full FYAs, not a 3 section) replaced the 4-stacks previously used.

interesting. Flashing yellow arrows are usually supposed to be reserved for dedicated turn lanes. That said, I have seen them used for option lanes, as part of a 5-section display. I think it was Minnesota or Wisconsin that first did that. Do you happen to have any photos of the set-up? I can see it's not on street view.

It was put in earlier this year, so it is not yet on streetview. The setup looks like the streetview example linked below, except the pole mounted FYA is on the farside of the intersection. The hung FYA is over the left lane and not the option lane.

I think FYAs were put in as replacements due to high pedestrian traffic and proximity to a school, along with the high volumes of turning traffic vs thru traffic. Quite often the option lane is used only for left turns.

Example of a similar but bidirectional setup on Staten Island with no option lane and a true lagging operation
https://maps.app.goo.gl/u6D4EwZ4RHs4ehA56

https://youtu.be/x9w5iwcZGJg

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 03, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on August 02, 2019, 09:22:10 PM
It was put in earlier this year, so it is not yet on streetview. The setup looks like the streetview example linked below, except the pole mounted FYA is on the farside of the intersection. The hung FYA is over the left lane and not the option lane.

I think FYAs were put in as replacements due to high pedestrian traffic and proximity to a school, along with the high volumes of turning traffic vs thru traffic. Quite often the option lane is used only for left turns.

Example of a similar but bidirectional setup on Staten Island with no option lane and a true lagging operation
https://maps.app.goo.gl/u6D4EwZ4RHs4ehA56

https://youtu.be/x9w5iwcZGJg

Thank you for the link. Those NYC flashing yellow arrows are so...boutique!

Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/

Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/bfmf1oqxET7Wy2RK9

As far as I can tell, the left turns have to yield to traffic turning right, who is also yielding to the crosswalk (so they're kind of a way off to the right). I guess that's how it should be, but for some reason, it seems like a strange setup. I would have assumed that left turns would have a green orb, with right turns having to yield to everyone (peds & cars), but I guess that's actually more unusual.

OT: really remarkable how conservative some Bay Area cities are with left turn phasing. San Jose is apparently looking at this left turn as a study, to see if it will work anywhere else. Yet, aren't there (probably) hundreds of existing studies from other cities? I don't see why they need to do their own study. There are other cities in CA that have more widely adopted the flashing yellow arrow. They should talk to them about their experiences. IMO, they should install like 10 at various types of intersections, and see how they compare. I feel like a study of one intersection doesn't allow for individual nuances.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 04, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 03, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/

Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/bfmf1oqxET7Wy2RK9

As far as I can tell, the left turns have to yield to traffic turning right, who is also yielding to the crosswalk (so they're kind of a way off to the right). I guess that's how it should be, but for some reason, it seems like a strange setup. I would have assumed that left turns would have a green orb, with right turns having to yield to everyone (peds & cars), but I guess that's actually more unusual.

OT: really remarkable how conservative some Bay Area cities are with left turn phasing. San Jose is apparently looking at this left turn as a study, to see if it will work anywhere else. Yet, aren't there (probably) hundreds of existing studies from other cities? I don't see why they need to do their own study. There are other cities in CA that have more widely adopted the flashing yellow arrow. They should talk to them about their experiences. IMO, they should install like 10 at various types of intersections, and see how they compare. I feel like a study of one intersection doesn't allow for individual nuances.

The signal in San Jose if fairly new as GSV in 2018 shows that the minor street was controlled by stop signs.

This intersection in San Jose is an intersection at a "broken grid".  For whatever reason, it is fairly common in Los Angeles.  Essentially, a minor street has a slight jog as it crosses the bigger street.  To some extent, it is almost like having two very closely spaced intersections with one minor street going north and one minor street going south.

There are several ways of signalling a broken grid jog.  One possibility is that this is a decent candidate for split-phasing.  IMO, that would be the safest signallization for something like this.

It seems that traffic on Henry must turn onto SC.  They should make that more clear with a "no straight" sign.  Not sure if it's legal in California, but the sign is helfpul as shown here (Georgia/Bonifant in Silver Spring, MD):

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9934146,-77.0266341,3a,75y,240.9h,90.59t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-uYfvbaX85b_He4ecNHCkw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Another possibility is to give protected lefts at the same time as pedestrian crossings.  Look at this intersection, Linden Dr & Wilshire Blvd in Beverly Hills, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.06696,-118.407862,3a,75y,7.37h,81.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKktQ5SnO_gRDR3i2H5H-3A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

At the beginning of the cycle, both directions of Linden see a green left arrow at the same time as pedestrians can cross.  The left turns do not interfere with each other nor do they interfere at all with the pedestrians. Then a yellow arrow and then green orbs, while the pedestrians are still crossing.  Like other green signals, right turns must yield to peds.  Due to the islands in the street, there is no possibility for any traffic to go straight across, which would be bad since they'd go straight across the line of pedestrians as well.

RTOR is permitted here, so right turns can occur at all times, yielding to Wilshire traffic for most of the cycle, yielding to peds and left turners during the green arrow, and yielding only to peds during green orb.

So to address Henry/SC, I'd do something similar. 
Green left arrows, red orb, ped walk
Yellow left arrows, red orb, ped walk
Flashing yellow left arrows, flashing yellow right arrows, FDW*
Solid yellow left arrow, solid yellow right arrow, steady don't walk
Red left arrow, flashing red right arrow.

* During this phase, I hope that it is clear that the left turners are to yield to right turners, to the extant that they conflict.  [Since it follows the protected left, it may be a signal to them that they do not have the ROW, even though there is no apparent conflict.]  Right turners do not have the ROW (they must yield to peds present) but they have priority over the left turners.  Of course, as said by others, in the European system, no conflict as the left turners turn into left lane and right turners turn into right lane, and SC is three lanes wide in each direction here.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 05, 2019, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/
I love flashing yellow arrows more than JakeRoot lmao, but that's not a spot for them IMO, the odd angles of that intersection where you can barely see oncoming traffic is a spot that needs split phasing. I know split phasing is very unpopular in this group overall but it only makes sense here IMO.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 05, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 05, 2019, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/
I love flashing yellow arrows more than JakeRoot lmao, but that's not a spot for them IMO, the odd angles of that intersection where you can barely see oncoming traffic is a spot that needs split phasing. I know split phasing is very unpopular in this group overall but it only makes sense here IMO.

I'm thinking split phasing was not used and the FYA works here because the intersection is relatively low volume. The south leg of Henry Ave is a dead-end street, so there's not a whole lot of traffic coming from that direction. The north leg connects to residential streets, with the neighborhood having several other exits to major streets. I'd almost think the signal is there more for a pedestrian crossing than side street access.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 05, 2019, 01:46:28 PM
Quote from: roadfro on August 05, 2019, 11:09:59 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 05, 2019, 10:43:47 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/
I love flashing yellow arrows more than JakeRoot lmao, but that's not a spot for them IMO, the odd angles of that intersection where you can barely see oncoming traffic is a spot that needs split phasing. I know split phasing is very unpopular in this group overall but it only makes sense here IMO.

I'm thinking split phasing was not used and the FYA works here because the intersection is relatively low volume. The south leg of Henry Ave is a dead-end street, so there's not a whole lot of traffic coming from that direction. The north leg connects to residential streets, with the neighborhood having several other exits to major streets. I'd almost think the signal is there more for a pedestrian crossing than side street access.

Oh, without any doubt. The old intersection was two stop signs, on either side of a massive (certainly unsafe) zebra crossing. The new intersection is built entirely around that crossing. I think it works perfectly well, as unusual as the setup may be. Since there is no "through" traffic (everyone must turn), there's only two vehicular conflict points (where left turns must yield to traffic turning right across the crosswalk). Should be perfectly fine.

A version of this crosswalk that permits through movements is in use in Seattle, at Queen Anne Ave & Roy St (https://goo.gl/maps/yoemjNTFtmtPsf3x6). Queen Anne Ave is fully permissive, but Roy Street has a rather unusual movement. During the crossing phase, the left turns can proceed, but the right turns have red arrows (and NTOR blankout signs). After the crossing phase ends, the right turns can proceed while the left turns have red arrows (to allow traffic to then turn left immediately, to follow along Roy). Three phase intersection; very efficient, in my experience.

Quote from: mrsman on August 04, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Another possibility is to give protected lefts at the same time as pedestrian crossings.  Look at this intersection, Linden Dr & Wilshire Blvd in Beverly Hills, CA:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.06696,-118.407862,3a,75y,7.37h,81.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKktQ5SnO_gRDR3i2H5H-3A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

At the beginning of the cycle, both directions of Linden see a green left arrow at the same time as pedestrians can cross.  The left turns do not interfere with each other nor do they interfere at all with the pedestrians. Then a yellow arrow and then green orbs, while the pedestrians are still crossing.  Like other green signals, right turns must yield to peds.  Due to the islands in the street, there is no possibility for any traffic to go straight across, which would be bad since they'd go straight across the line of pedestrians as well.

RTOR is permitted here, so right turns can occur at all times, yielding to Wilshire traffic for most of the cycle, yielding to peds and left turners during the green arrow, and yielding only to peds during green orb.

The signal I posted above (in Seattle) is very similar to this, although it does not allow right turns to yield to pedestrians. This setup seems perfectly adequate, though.

Quote from: mrsman on August 04, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Flashing yellow left arrows, flashing yellow right arrows, FDW*

* During this phase, I hope that it is clear that the left turners are to yield to right turners, to the extant that they conflict.  [Since it follows the protected left, it may be a signal to them that they do not have the ROW, even though there is no apparent conflict.]  Right turners do not have the ROW (they must yield to peds present) but they have priority over the left turners.  Of course, as said by others, in the European system, no conflict as the left turners turn into left lane and right turners turn into right lane, and SC is three lanes wide in each direction here.

(sorry to clip...trying to shorten my post)...What you describe as the "European system" is actually the system utilized by most US states. WA for example. Many Canadian provinces as well (if not all). I think when you take into account the low traffic volumes, and the number of lanes along Stevens Creek, I think both the left and right turns can proceed simultaneously without much of any conflict, assuming traffic at least attempts to stay in their lane. My one reservation with that suggestion, would be how far the median injects itself into the intersection. Sharper turns seem to result in more cars turning into the middle or right lanes, because the nearest lane is an uncomfortably-sharp maneuver. If they pulled the median back, that may encourage more cars to turn into the near lane (even if it's not the law).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 07, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 05, 2019, 01:46:28 PM

Quote from: mrsman on August 04, 2019, 12:35:30 PM
Flashing yellow left arrows, flashing yellow right arrows, FDW*

* During this phase, I hope that it is clear that the left turners are to yield to right turners, to the extant that they conflict.  [Since it follows the protected left, it may be a signal to them that they do not have the ROW, even though there is no apparent conflict.]  Right turners do not have the ROW (they must yield to peds present) but they have priority over the left turners.  Of course, as said by others, in the European system, no conflict as the left turners turn into left lane and right turners turn into right lane, and SC is three lanes wide in each direction here.

(sorry to clip...trying to shorten my post)...What you describe as the "European system" is actually the system utilized by most US states. WA for example. Many Canadian provinces as well (if not all). I think when you take into account the low traffic volumes, and the number of lanes along Stevens Creek, I think both the left and right turns can proceed simultaneously without much of any conflict, assuming traffic at least attempts to stay in their lane. My one reservation with that suggestion, would be how far the median injects itself into the intersection. Sharper turns seem to result in more cars turning into the middle or right lanes, because the nearest lane is an uncomfortably-sharp maneuver. If they pulled the median back, that may encourage more cars to turn into the near lane (even if it's not the law).

As with many fine points of driving that we discuss here, especially in Traffic Control, we know that with 50 states, the rules aren't always the same from state to state.  [e.g. right turn on red arrow, LTOR onto one-way streets]

https://driversed.com/driving-information/driving-techniques/making-right-and-left-turns.aspx


While it is probably a good idea to require turning into the closest lane practical (to allow left turns and opposing right turns to turn onto multi-lane streets without conflict), that is not universally the law.  In particular, AFAIK based on taking the CA driving test 25 years ago, CA requires right turns into the closest lane, but doesn't require left turns into the closest lane.  The left turn and the right turn would thus be in conflict with each other here, even if it's possible for the cars to easily avoid each other, given the width of Stevens Creek Blvd.  This is why the left turns do not see a green arrow.  It is not a protected left turn, given the potential for conflict with the opposing right turn.

In jurisdictions where turns must be completed into the closest lane, and the cross street is sufficiently wide, it is not unheard of to see a protected green left arrow opposite a protected green right arrow - although admittedly the situation would be really rare (and may not be a good idea because some cars may be encouraged to turn wide given they have a protected turn as signified with the green arrow.)  I know of two examples of this.

1) Union Turnpike and Queens Blvd in Kew Gardens, Queens, NY:  While I haven't been able to capture a GSV with the left turn and right turn at the same time, I know this can happen.*  Given NYC's no RTOR law, the large number of peds crossing here (right on top of a subway station), and rampant jaywalking that NYC is famous for, there is a lot to keep track of here.  Essentially, a driver should treat the right turn green arrow as only providing priority over the conflicting ped crossing, and no other protection.  The right turn needs to be made extremely carefully, and no assumptions that they could make a merger to the left.  The opposing left is a double left.  The UT service road is 3 lanes that quickly comes down to 2 lanes (and it is usually even quicker given the rampant illegal standing/stopping/parking in the curb lane).  The UT service road also leads pretty quickly to on-ramps for I-278 and the Grand Central Parkway, so a lot of lane changing is common on this stretch as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7141735,-73.8302637,3a,75y,307.08h,81.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn5MuWX_oi94Zs-BmkOezTA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

2) I-290 @ Harlem Ave in Oak Park, IL:  (and its twin at I-290 @ Austin) A diamond interchange where on-ramps and off-ramps off the freeway's left.  It means there is one intersection on exit, instead of two.  A heavy WB off-ramp left at the same time as a heave EB off-ramp right (and vice versa) show that both directions have left and right green arrows at the same time.  I hope IL drivers strictly follow the turn into closest lane rule.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8736351,-87.804351,3a,75y,280.82h,79.57t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s37kklOPvx9Y6844wlsj_Dw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192


* This is an area that I frequented a lot when I briefly lived in the area about 20 years ago.  I am hoping given the GSV that maybe they adjusted the timing so that the right and left green arrows are not simultaneous.  If that is the case, there could be other problems, as ped confusion for crossing against right turns and left turns at different parts of the cycle.  From the GSV, it seems that you get a DW against the right turn ramp, but a W against the left turn ramp.  Since the porkchop island is quite small, it seems that peds are supposed to wait there for the next phase to complete their crossing, but i don't know how many do it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on August 07, 2019, 01:37:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 07, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
As with many fine points of driving that we discuss here, especially in Traffic Control, we know that with 50 states, the rules aren't always the same from state to state.  [e.g. right turn on red arrow, LTOR onto one-way streets]

https://driversed.com/driving-information/driving-techniques/making-right-and-left-turns.aspx


While it is probably a good idea to require turning into the closest lane practical (to allow left turns and opposing right turns to turn onto multi-lane streets without conflict), that is not universally the law.  In particular, AFAIK based on taking the CA driving test 25 years ago, CA requires right turns into the closest lane, but doesn't require left turns into the closest lane. 

Last I checked, it's the same way in Texas.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 07, 2019, 03:57:03 PM
Quote from: kphoger on August 07, 2019, 01:37:40 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 07, 2019, 01:20:06 AM
As with many fine points of driving that we discuss here, especially in Traffic Control, we know that with 50 states, the rules aren't always the same from state to state.  [e.g. right turn on red arrow, LTOR onto one-way streets]

https://driversed.com/driving-information/driving-techniques/making-right-and-left-turns.aspx


While it is probably a good idea to require turning into the closest lane practical (to allow left turns and opposing right turns to turn onto multi-lane streets without conflict), that is not universally the law.  In particular, AFAIK based on taking the CA driving test 25 years ago, CA requires right turns into the closest lane, but doesn't require left turns into the closest lane. 

Last I checked, it's the same way in Texas.

AFAIK from taking the Maine driver's test in 2017, Maine requires right and left hand turns into the closest lane. I believe New Hampshire is the same way and maybe Massachusetts as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 03:01:17 PM
Here's another bizarre application of FYA usage in option lanes up in Skowhegan, Maine, not sure if this is permitted in the MUTCD:

Old 5-section "doghouse" PPLT setup:
US-201 and Pleasant/High St with standard 5-section PPLT signal (2007)  (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7670776,-69.7203321,3a,75y,157.08h,89.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMjXHg35aIb9pq8pp4uTc4w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664)

New FYA 3 and 4 section setup:
SB US-201 and Pleasant/High St with 4-section FYA (2011/2018) (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7670811,-69.7203689,3a,24.1y,150.05h,95.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgVW8rtM66VR3auvKDV4iGw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
NB US-201 and Pleasant/High St with 3-section permissive-only FYA (2011/2018) (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7668854,-69.7202747,3a,15y,359.72h,91.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sxgQmY5RMKVP-Tas1-t4aKw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

The interesting thing about this intersection is NB US-201's 3-section permissive-only FYA isn't tied to the oncoming thru signals (SB US-201), so whenever SB US-201 gets a leading protected left turn, it doesn't flash a yellow arrow and just stays red arrow. This also means that when phase skip occurs on SB US-201 to go back to its leading left turn, a yellow trap is created on NB US-201 as it cycles to steady yellow arrow to red arrow even though SB US-201 still has a green for the thru direction.

Also thought you can't have a right turn filter arrow if the lane is shared thru/right, seems to be the case at this intersection and a few other Maine intersections as well.

Would a properly configured FYA doghouse work at this intersection?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on August 12, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 03:01:17 PM
Would a properly configured FYA doghouse work at this intersection?

For both directions of US-201, since they appear to be shared left/thru lanes, absolutely they would work. The only issue is that you can't have a protected left phase with the FYA doghouse setup, and obviously I don't know how much the existing protected left phase matters to SB 201.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 12, 2019, 03:48:05 PM
That is perhaps the most bizarre flashing yellow arrow installation I've yet seen. It's functionally identical to the old setup, but, as far as I know, it's no longer compliant. Dedicated all-arrow signals are, supposedly, reserved for dedicated turn-only lanes, with 4/5-section combo arrow/orb signals being reserved for option lanes (or dedicated turn-only lanes).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on August 12, 2019, 03:34:42 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 03:01:17 PM
Would a properly configured FYA doghouse work at this intersection?

For both directions of US-201, since they appear to be shared left/thru lanes, absolutely they would work. The only issue is that you can't have a protected left phase with the FYA doghouse setup, and obviously I don't know how much the existing protected left phase matters to SB 201.

I think when they installed the new signals, whoever installed them didn't wire the FYA's to the oncoming thru green and check to be sure a yellow trap condition didn't exist... if a FYA doghouse was used there, the green arrow in both directions would be bimodal as shown here:

Flashing Yellow Arrow Doghouse by Wisconsin Sirens & Signals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPGf-sIBgB0)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 12, 2019, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
Flashing Yellow Arrow Doghouse by Wisconsin Sirens & Signals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPGf-sIBgB0)

This video was recorded by a user here: JMAN Wis&S (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=12798)

We've talked about the signal before, and I think my main issue was the FYA signal on the left side of the intersection. It displays a red arrow that the overhead signal does not. Both signals should be 5-section, if the left-side mast-mounted signal is to be supplemental to the overhead signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 15, 2019, 04:30:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2019, 03:48:05 PM
That is perhaps the most bizarre flashing yellow arrow installation I've yet seen. It's functionally identical to the old setup, but, as far as I know, it's no longer compliant. Dedicated all-arrow signals are, supposedly, reserved for dedicated turn-only lanes, with 4/5-section combo arrow/orb signals being reserved for option lanes (or dedicated turn-only lanes).

I agree.  I don't understand the point of putting in a FYA there.  it would seem that leaving the old signal arrangement would be superior.

I believe it is a rule that a straight/right option lane cannot have a right turn green arrow, but I disagree with the rule.  There are many instances, as it appears in the Maine intersection discussed above, where the right turn is a heavy movement, even though cars can technically go straight as well.  Having the right arrow is helpful for the majority of circumstances where the cars are turning right, even though there will be cases where right turns cannot proceed since there is a car waiting to go straight and is stuck with a red orb/green arrow situation.

I know that straight/left option lanes are allowed to have red orb/green arrow signalization, even though straight cars may block turning cars, at times.  I have seen this at several intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 18, 2019, 02:38:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 15, 2019, 04:30:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2019, 03:48:05 PM
That is perhaps the most bizarre flashing yellow arrow installation I've yet seen. It's functionally identical to the old setup, but, as far as I know, it's no longer compliant. Dedicated all-arrow signals are, supposedly, reserved for dedicated turn-only lanes, with 4/5-section combo arrow/orb signals being reserved for option lanes (or dedicated turn-only lanes).
I agree.  I don't understand the point of putting in a FYA there.  it would seem that leaving the old signal arrangement would be superior.

I believe it is a rule that a straight/right option lane cannot have a right turn green arrow, but I disagree with the rule.  There are many instances, as it appears in the Maine intersection discussed above, where the right turn is a heavy movement, even though cars can technically go straight as well.  Having the right arrow is helpful for the majority of circumstances where the cars are turning right, even though there will be cases where right turns cannot proceed since there is a car waiting to go straight and is stuck with a red orb/green arrow situation.

I know that straight/left option lanes are allowed to have red orb/green arrow signalization, even though straight cars may block turning cars, at times.  I have seen this at several intersections.

Per the standard in 2009 MUTCD 4D.17p06: A protected only mode left-turn movement that does not begin and terminate at the same time as the adjacent through movement shall not be provided on an approach unless an exclusive left-turn lane exists.

This means that straight/left option lanes are not allowed to have separate indications active for straight and left turn movements, such as displaying circular red with green arrow. To have a protected left turn in an option lane would require having an exclusive left turn lane to the left of it. So it sounds like the left turn operation seen by mrsman at several intersections is in violation of the MUTCD.


A similar provision exists for right turns, in 2009 MUTCD 4D.21p05: A protected only mode right-turn movement that does not begin and terminate at the same time as the adjacent through movement shall not be provided on an approach unless an exclusive right-turn lane exists.

This means that a straight/right option lane is allowed to show a green arrow so long as it is a protected movement. (However, the geometry would need to be such that there is an exclusive right turn lane next to the option straight/right lane.) And you could not have a circular red with green arrow for the option lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 18, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: roadfro on August 18, 2019, 02:38:43 PM
Per the standard in 2009 MUTCD 4D.17p06: A protected only mode left-turn movement that does not begin and terminate at the same time as the adjacent through movement shall not be provided on an approach unless an exclusive left-turn lane exists.

This means that straight/left option lanes are not allowed to have separate indications active for straight and left turn movements, such as displaying circular red with green arrow. To have a protected left turn in an option lane would require having an exclusive left turn lane to the left of it. So it sounds like the left turn operation seen by mrsman at several intersections is in violation of the MUTCD.

Wait, hold up. I thought that section applied only to "protected only" signals (as in, all arrow signals)? I can think many situations where a green arrow (protected) movement may need to be provided for a left turn, where there is also a straight-ahead movement: a busy left turn from one-way to one-way, where a pedestrian signal doesn't last the whole cycle (example in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/VX6D8LWEPC8gJaLSA)), or a protected lagging left provided for one direction where there is no left turn lane (also in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/1XbMD3Lh8NWDy5V68)).

My understanding has always been that protected-only signals are never to be used over a lane that can go more than one direction, but it's pretty normal to provide a doghouse/tower signal over an option lane for various reasons.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 18, 2019, 03:59:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 18, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
Quote from: roadfro on August 18, 2019, 02:38:43 PM
Per the standard in 2009 MUTCD 4D.17p06: A protected only mode left-turn movement that does not begin and terminate at the same time as the adjacent through movement shall not be provided on an approach unless an exclusive left-turn lane exists.

This means that straight/left option lanes are not allowed to have separate indications active for straight and left turn movements, such as displaying circular red with green arrow. To have a protected left turn in an option lane would require having an exclusive left turn lane to the left of it. So it sounds like the left turn operation seen by mrsman at several intersections is in violation of the MUTCD.

Wait, hold up. I thought that section applied only to "protected only" signals (as in, all arrow signals)? I can think many situations where a green arrow (protected) movement may need to be provided for a left turn, where there is also a straight-ahead movement: a busy left turn from one-way to one-way, where a pedestrian signal doesn't last the whole cycle (example in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/VX6D8LWEPC8gJaLSA)), or a protected lagging left provided for one direction where there is no left turn lane (also in Seattle (https://goo.gl/maps/1XbMD3Lh8NWDy5V68)).

My understanding has always been that protected-only signals are never to be used over a lane that can go more than one direction, but it's pretty normal to provide a doghouse/tower signal over an option lane for various reasons.

The section title there is "Signal Indications for Left-Turn Movements - General" (4D.18 is more detail about permitted only operation; 4D.19 protected only; and 4D.20 PPLT). and the statement is discussing "protected only mode", so it's referring to any type of protected left turn movement regardless of lane type. At least, that was my interpretation.


However, I'm reading a bit further and can potentially see where the examples you posted have some wiggle room:

4D.17p08: If the operating mode changes among the protected only mode and/or the protected/permissive mode and/or the permissive only mode during different periods of the day or as traffic conditions change, the requirements in Sections 4D.18 through 4D.20 that are appropriate to that mode of operation shall be met, subject to the following: (basically no simultaneous G+Y or GA+YA).

Now look more closely at PPLT operations

Quote
Section 4D.20 Signal Indications for Protected/Permissive Mode Left-Turn Movements

Standard:
01 If a shared signal face is provided for a protected/permissive mode left turn, it shall meet the following requirements (see Figure 4D-11):

A.  It shall be capable of displaying the following signal indications: steady CIRCULAR RED, steady CIRCULAR YELLOW, CIRCULAR green, steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW, and left-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the three circular indications shall be displayed at any given time. Only one of the two arrow indications shall be displayed at any given time. If the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication and the CIRCULAR GREEN signal indication(s) for the adjacent through movement are always terminated together, the steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall not be required.
B.  During the protected left-turn movement, the shared signal face shall simultaneously display a left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication and a circular signal indication that is the same color as the signal indication for the adjacent through lane on the same approach as the protected left turn.
C.  A steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be displayed following the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication, unless the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication and the CIRCULAR GREEN signal indication(s) for the adjacent through movement are being terminated together. When the left-turn GREEN ARROW and CIRCULAR GREEN signal indications are being terminated together, the required display following the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication shall be either the display of a CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication alone or the simultaneous display of the CIRCULAR YELLOW and left-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indications.


Consider that the operating mode changes from permitted to protected mid-phase "as traffic conditions change" (e.g. pedestrian phase terminates early, or opposing through phase gaps out). In this scenario, having the protected green arrow come on for an option lane would be more acceptable. The caveat here is that the protected mode comes at the end of the phase, so that the circular green and green arrow can terminate together without need for a yellow arrow.

However, the MUTCD doesn't show a typical mounting location for a R-Y-G-GA signal head (or any signal head styles, for that matter) with a shared left/through as the only left turn lane. I assume this goes back to the original standard about exclusive left turn lanes. But if you disregard that, then everything else in these two R-Y-G-GA examples makes sense.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
One non-traditional configuration that possibly could be getting confused with whats being discussed is I've seen a signal that was set for split phase for certain hours of the day (school start/end times) while the rest of the day, it operates as a permissive left turn, with no dedicated left turn lane constructed for the intersection. It got rebuilt a few years back to be more traditional.

Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.

This is one of those things where people see the end result, and never think about everything else that goes into programming a light.

In order to go from a 3 head to 4 head light, you need to verify the additional 12" of clearance over the road is available.  In order to do that, the posts holding the mast or cable over the roadway has to be constructed to the proper height.  The light has to be programmed to allow for the FYA phase.  In order to program that phase, the proper software has to be installed in the junction box.  In order to have the proper software, it needs to be ordered and installed.  And I skipped over a lot of other stuff that needs to be done.

So, basically, what people see is the end result of months if not years of work.  The 3 hours it took to switch out a traffic light for another traffic light is the cumulation of all that work, not the start of it!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 19, 2019, 02:06:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 12, 2019, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 12, 2019, 04:09:47 PM
Flashing Yellow Arrow Doghouse by Wisconsin Sirens & Signals (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPGf-sIBgB0)

This video was recorded by a user here: JMAN Wis&S (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=12798)

We've talked about the signal before, and I think my main issue was the FYA signal on the left side of the intersection. It displays a red arrow that the overhead signal does not. Both signals should be 5-section, if the left-side mast-mounted signal is to be supplemental to the overhead signal.

Looking back at some video of the Maine intersection, after the protected phase ends following the steady yellow arrow, it goes right to the flashing yellow like it does at most FYA's in Massachusetts, it does not go to the red arrow after the steady yellow arrow after the leading left expires.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PAHighways on August 19, 2019, 04:00:08 PM
Discovered what could possibly be Allegheny County's first FYA install at PA 148's southern terminus at PA 48 in McKeesport:  https://maps.app.goo.gl/w6vjX9Hm9r3x6Vvg7.

This is the first signal to be installed at this intersection that I can remember.

SM-G965U

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 06:42:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.

This is one of those things where people see the end result, and never think about everything else that goes into programming a light.

In order to go from a 3 head to 4 head light, you need to verify the additional 12" of clearance over the road is available.  In order to do that, the posts holding the mast or cable over the roadway has to be constructed to the proper height.  The light has to be programmed to allow for the FYA phase.  In order to program that phase, the proper software has to be installed in the junction box.  In order to have the proper software, it needs to be ordered and installed.  And I skipped over a lot of other stuff that needs to be done.

So, basically, what people see is the end result of months if not years of work.  The 3 hours it took to switch out a traffic light for another traffic light is the cumulation of all that work, not the start of it!
Aren't the posts fairly standardized for a typical span wire/concrete post intersection? I've seen DOT yards full of them, and they all are exactly the same size and width and seem to have pre-cut holes/conduits for the wires at specific heights. Unless there is special circumstances... and when they're doing construction, they seem to throw a bunch more signals onto the wire without changing anything else...

This is UCF's PR on that study: https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researcher-works-to-make-left-turns-safer-more-efficient/
They've apparently been working on this project since 2012.

I am curious, is installation of FYA signal heads but keeping them programmed as a protective phase at all times common in any other areas outside of Orlando? Can't say I've seen too much of that anywhere else. They seem to install the signal heads at all new projects with a single left turn lane with no visibility issues no matter what now. Just won't turn them on half the time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 20, 2019, 02:06:34 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 06:42:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.

This is one of those things where people see the end result, and never think about everything else that goes into programming a light.

In order to go from a 3 head to 4 head light, you need to verify the additional 12" of clearance over the road is available.  In order to do that, the posts holding the mast or cable over the roadway has to be constructed to the proper height.  The light has to be programmed to allow for the FYA phase.  In order to program that phase, the proper software has to be installed in the junction box.  In order to have the proper software, it needs to be ordered and installed.  And I skipped over a lot of other stuff that needs to be done.

So, basically, what people see is the end result of months if not years of work.  The 3 hours it took to switch out a traffic light for another traffic light is the cumulation of all that work, not the start of it!
Aren't the posts fairly standardized for a typical span wire/concrete post intersection? I've seen DOT yards full of them, and they all are exactly the same size and width and seem to have pre-cut holes/conduits for the wires at specific heights. Unless there is special circumstances... and when they're doing construction, they seem to throw a bunch more signals onto the wire without changing anything else...

This is UCF's PR on that study: https://www.ucf.edu/news/ucf-researcher-works-to-make-left-turns-safer-more-efficient/
They've apparently been working on this project since 2012.

I am curious, is installation of FYA signal heads but keeping them programmed as a protective phase at all times common in any other areas outside of Orlando? Can't say I've seen too much of that anywhere else. They seem to install the signal heads at all new projects with a single left turn lane with no visibility issues no matter what now. Just won't turn them on half the time.
I've seen stuff like that in Bloomington MN, right near the big mall.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2019, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 06:42:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.

This is one of those things where people see the end result, and never think about everything else that goes into programming a light.

In order to go from a 3 head to 4 head light, you need to verify the additional 12" of clearance over the road is available.  In order to do that, the posts holding the mast or cable over the roadway has to be constructed to the proper height.  The light has to be programmed to allow for the FYA phase.  In order to program that phase, the proper software has to be installed in the junction box.  In order to have the proper software, it needs to be ordered and installed.  And I skipped over a lot of other stuff that needs to be done.

So, basically, what people see is the end result of months if not years of work.  The 3 hours it took to switch out a traffic light for another traffic light is the cumulation of all that work, not the start of it!
Aren't the posts fairly standardized for a typical span wire/concrete post intersection? I've seen DOT yards full of them, and they all are exactly the same size and width and seem to have pre-cut holes/conduits for the wires at specific heights. Unless there is special circumstances... and when they're doing construction, they seem to throw a bunch more signals onto the wire without changing anything else...


Unless you have a tape measure with you, it would be impossible from a distance to tell if they are all the same height and width.  From a distance, you wouldn't tell the difference of a few inches.  Next time you're standing talking to someone, try to figure out their exact height.  Most likely you'll be off an inch or two or three.  Now try relaying that same process to a bunch of poles laying on the ground a few hundred feet away and figure out their exact heights!  They may look the same, and no doubt some of them are the same, but they're definitely not all the same.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on August 21, 2019, 12:27:51 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 20, 2019, 06:06:32 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 06:42:26 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 19, 2019, 12:24:21 PM
Quote from: tradephoric on August 19, 2019, 11:44:57 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on August 19, 2019, 11:14:48 AM
Orlando has been building new signals with 4 head FYAs for a little while now, often programmed at all times to operated in protected mode, which has driven me crazy. Apparently, they commissioned UCF to study having them dynamically change to a FYA when traffic is light, and they've apparently been testing that:
https://www.wftv.com/video?videoId=973570183&videoVersion=1.0

Seems pointless to me... why not just have it flash all the time? I'd imagine they obviously can't have it going back to protected after it switched to FYA for that cycle, and there probably is at least some sort of delay for it to enter FYA mode...

A four-head FYA that never runs the permissive phase would be quite frustrating.  They are almost needling you into thinking that the light will be permissive at some point in the cycle when it never is!  I guess having the four-head FYA gives the agency options to run permissively down the road, but just swap out the left turn heads when they actually decides to run the signal permissively.

This is one of those things where people see the end result, and never think about everything else that goes into programming a light.

In order to go from a 3 head to 4 head light, you need to verify the additional 12" of clearance over the road is available.  In order to do that, the posts holding the mast or cable over the roadway has to be constructed to the proper height.  The light has to be programmed to allow for the FYA phase.  In order to program that phase, the proper software has to be installed in the junction box.  In order to have the proper software, it needs to be ordered and installed.  And I skipped over a lot of other stuff that needs to be done.

So, basically, what people see is the end result of months if not years of work.  The 3 hours it took to switch out a traffic light for another traffic light is the cumulation of all that work, not the start of it!
Aren't the posts fairly standardized for a typical span wire/concrete post intersection? I've seen DOT yards full of them, and they all are exactly the same size and width and seem to have pre-cut holes/conduits for the wires at specific heights. Unless there is special circumstances... and when they're doing construction, they seem to throw a bunch more signals onto the wire without changing anything else...


Unless you have a tape measure with you, it would be impossible from a distance to tell if they are all the same height and width.  From a distance, you wouldn't tell the difference of a few inches.  Next time you're standing talking to someone, try to figure out their exact height.  Most likely you'll be off an inch or two or three.  Now try relaying that same process to a bunch of poles laying on the ground a few hundred feet away and figure out their exact heights!  They may look the same, and no doubt some of them are the same, but they're definitely not all the same.
I mean when they're all lined up on the ground next to each other or stacked, its real easy to see that they're all the same. They keep them fairly organized on the ground from what I've seen.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 24, 2019, 10:03:13 PM
Are there any FYA's (or protected only signals) that use steady circular red or yellow balls instead of steady red/yellow arrows? This one at I-89 and Route 3A in Concord has all arrows for the FYA, except for the clearance interval which uses a steady yellow ball instead of an arrow. There are three protected-only signals in Nashua, NH that are like that as well, steady red and green arrows but a yellow ball for clearance:

I-89 and Route 3A, Concord, NH:
(https://i.ibb.co/zQhHGSw/IMG-5243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYBqmH5)

Nashua, NH:
DW Highway and Graham Dr (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7298014,-71.4488565,3a,18.7y,162.96h,93.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skh1NJh8yx9oVKo2DX4EnMA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
DW Highway and Spit Brook Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7103065,-71.4420434,3a,15y,154.15h,103.06t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLATbxdE_hjwMg0dIFzc13g!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) (couldn't get the ball to light up but a closeup of the head itself)
DW Highway and Dan Chen St (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7046151,-71.4412671,3a,15y,174.02h,87.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLLigXwKcVkxPKt3hNHLkVw!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on August 24, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 24, 2019, 10:03:13 PM
Are there any FYA's (or protected only signals) that use steady circular red or yellow balls instead of steady red/yellow arrows?

Missouri has a few:

* MO 58 near I-49 (https://goo.gl/maps/cr6QnvpNap6Bgbty9)
* MO 95 near US 60 (it's not visible in streetview).

There's probably a few more out there in Missouri.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 24, 2019, 11:43:31 PM
I've seen FYA's (mostly for right turns) that use a circular red indication, but never one that had an all-arrow display except for the steady-yellow indication.

I've not seen a protected left that operates this way either. Must be more common in eastern states?

EDIT: I have seen something similar to this in Richmond, British Columbia. Some protected-only signals (https://goo.gl/maps/AcJC6eTsxGQM47bWA) display a solid yellow arrow and a solid yellow orb at the same time. The bottom arrow display is bi-modal, and the upper two displays are circular indications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ozarkman417 on August 25, 2019, 12:29:36 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 24, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 24, 2019, 10:03:13 PM
Are there any FYA's (or protected only signals) that use steady circular red or yellow balls instead of steady red/yellow arrows?

Missouri has a few:

* MO 58 near I-49 (https://goo.gl/maps/cr6QnvpNap6Bgbty9)
* MO 95 near US 60 (it's not visible in streetview).

There's probably a few more out there in Missouri.

Flashing yellow arrows have been appearing everywhere in Springfield, Missouri these past couple years. I almost believe that there are more FYAs than green balls here. If not, it's very close.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 25, 2019, 06:28:20 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 24, 2019, 10:03:13 PM
Are there any FYA's (or protected only signals) that use steady circular red or yellow balls instead of steady red/yellow arrows? This one at I-89 and Route 3A in Concord has all arrows for the FYA, except for the clearance interval which uses a steady yellow ball instead of an arrow. There are three protected-only signals in Nashua, NH that are like that as well, steady red and green arrows but a yellow ball for clearance:

I-89 and Route 3A, Concord, NH:
(https://i.ibb.co/zQhHGSw/IMG-5243.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TYBqmH5)

Nashua, NH:
DW Highway and Graham Dr (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7298014,-71.4488565,3a,18.7y,162.96h,93.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skh1NJh8yx9oVKo2DX4EnMA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)
DW Highway and Spit Brook Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7103065,-71.4420434,3a,15y,154.15h,103.06t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLATbxdE_hjwMg0dIFzc13g!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656) (couldn't get the ball to light up but a closeup of the head itself)
DW Highway and Dan Chen St (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.7046151,-71.4412671,3a,15y,174.02h,87.48t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sLLigXwKcVkxPKt3hNHLkVw!2e0!5s20161001T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
I've filmed one is Massachusetts: https://youtu.be/kNvR_sIJc_E


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 25, 2019, 08:54:01 AM
The one shown above from MA is really interesting.  Many feel that a steady yellow orb is more distinguishable from the FYA than a steady yellow arrow, so that's good.  It also seems that this signal is a special application of split-phasing - the two opposing directions have green at totally different times, but nonetheless a permissive left turn is allowed while the opposing side gets the green.  This eliminates one of the worst aspects of delay involved with split-phasing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 25, 2019, 08:34:09 PM
In that Massachusetts video why is there still a sign posted saying "Left turn yield on green ball"? Did they forget to take it down when they modernized the signal?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 25, 2019, 08:34:09 PM
In that Massachusetts video why is there still a sign posted saying "Left turn yield on green ball"? Did they forget to take it down when they modernized the signal?

For the same reason Dover, New Hampshire forgot to remove the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN"  when it was modernised in 2008...

NH Route 108 and Back River Rd (https://goo.gl/maps/85M42MXPDvtGmBHg9)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 25, 2019, 10:16:39 PM
Quote from: mrsman on August 25, 2019, 08:54:01 AM
The one shown above from MA is really interesting.  Many feel that a steady yellow orb is more distinguishable from the FYA than a steady yellow arrow, so that's good.  It also seems that this signal is a special application of split-phasing - the two opposing directions have green at totally different times, but nonetheless a permissive left turn is allowed while the opposing side gets the green.  This eliminates one of the worst aspects of delay involved with split-phasing.

I totally agree. It's actually a pretty smart setup. Granted, it only replaced a doghouse, so the operation isn't much different than before. But many states would split-phase that jughandle (especially given the visibility, even though I think it's fine), so props to Mass.

One thing I noticed at the intersection (link here (https://goo.gl/maps/FMuf5ym8F4pfBNzS8)) is that the near-side supplemental signal still appears to use circular RYG indications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:38:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 25, 2019, 10:16:39 PM
One thing I noticed at the intersection (link here (https://goo.gl/maps/FMuf5ym8F4pfBNzS8)) is that the near-side supplemental signal still appears to use circular RYG indications.

Another thing I should mention is the "supplemental" signal on Hartwell Ave goes completely blank during the permissive FYA phase. Here are some photos I took of the intersection on 16 February 2019 describing what I mean:

All-red (https://ibb.co/VB3V0pf)
Protected-left phase (https://ibb.co/cNq37zv)
Yellow clearance (https://ibb.co/ygz9ppj)
Permissive FYA phase (https://ibb.co/2PghVKd)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Then there's this signal on the Revere Beach Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043545,-71.0298046,3a,15y,279.97h,94.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sno0WVaTYxTE-y1BfiAtmCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (MA-16) which has heads that are set up for FYA on Webster and Garfield Dr, but all of the indications are circular indications... right now it is operating in split-phase (or permissive only operation). Possible conversion to FYA once left-turn lanes are added?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 25, 2019, 10:52:44 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:38:52 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 25, 2019, 10:16:39 PM
One thing I noticed at the intersection (link here (https://goo.gl/maps/FMuf5ym8F4pfBNzS8)) is that the near-side supplemental signal still appears to use circular RYG indications.

Another thing I should mention is the "supplemental" signal on Hartwell Ave goes completely blank during the permissive FYA phase. Here are some photos I took of the intersection on 16 February 2019 describing what I mean:

All-red (https://ibb.co/VB3V0pf)
Protected-left phase (https://ibb.co/cNq37zv)
Yellow clearance (https://ibb.co/ygz9ppj)
Permissive FYA phase (https://ibb.co/2PghVKd)

Oh nice! Thanks for those photos. I was very curious how that approach looked, as it's not covered by Street View for the newest imagery.

I was thinking that a near-side signal should be "supplementary" to the far-side signals. In this case, because there is no far-side green orb, the near-side signal should, theoretically, also be an FYA. But I see that they got around this issue by simply disabling the green orb during the permissive phase. Very strange but I suppose it works.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 26, 2019, 06:25:38 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 08:42:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 25, 2019, 08:34:09 PM
In that Massachusetts video why is there still a sign posted saying "Left turn yield on green ball"? Did they forget to take it down when they modernized the signal?

For the same reason Dover, New Hampshire forgot to remove the "LEFT TURN YIELD ON GREEN"  when it was modernised in 2008...

NH Route 108 and Back River Rd (https://goo.gl/maps/85M42MXPDvtGmBHg9)
I've been through that one, I didn't even check history view I could tell it was changed from a bimodal signal


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 26, 2019, 06:27:21 AM
I should note that Massachusetts changed that 3 headed signal to a FYA back in May.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 02, 2019, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.
My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on September 02, 2019, 10:10:14 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

Both the right turn head and the left turn head violated a number of sections of the MUTCD.

* The head for the right turn needs to be visibility limited or have a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL sign added (MUTCD 4D.05 Paragraph  11)
* The MUTCD mandates the use of arrows when signal heads are not shared
* Technically the MUTCD does not allow a circular red for separate left turn heads (barring T-type intersections with a shared left turn - right turn lane).  It would be interesting to see how FHWA would respond when asked about using one for a separate left turn head at the intersection of two one way streets with a leading pedestrian interval.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on September 03, 2019, 11:50:01 PM
If the delayed turn movements have their own lane, I think the proper setup would be RA YA FYA (with GA if there is a protected turn phase) since a red ball isnt allowed to be shown simultaneously with a green ball nor a green straight arrow. Nor is a green ball allowed for a dedicated permissive left turn movement, along with other rules mentioned by revive755
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 02, 2019, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.
My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on September 05, 2019, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 02, 2019, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.
My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.

Checking Street View from just last year shows fresh striping of three lanes in a left-straight-right configuration. It faded very badly.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on September 06, 2019, 12:51:51 PM
Just wanted to post this photo of a FYA signal I found near Waukesha, WI.  That skinny mast arm looks more like it belongs in MO, IA, or IL!

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48667903928_fb2251e54a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2h9BJgS)
WI-YB1 (https://flic.kr/p/2h9BJgS) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 07, 2019, 12:24:48 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on September 05, 2019, 07:19:31 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2019, 12:05:19 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 02, 2019, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 08:43:41 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 02, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 02, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Could this LPI configuration use a pair of right and left FYA signals?

US-2, Bangor, Maine (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.8016999,-68.7714291,3a,36.5y,161.46h,92.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5nvC5u8OSC8usYT036aAHA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Stays red ball for the ped phase, then goes to circular green to allow the left and right turns to turn permissively.

So right turns must yield, but they have a solid red light. Which means (after stopping) 'yield'.

I think an FYA would be warranted here.

The left turn signal is programmed the same way as well, red ball for the ped phase then green ball for permissive left turns. Note that left on red from one way to one way is NOT legal in Maine as well.
My hunch is that an FYA display would work well here. The lack of lane lines on the road make that hard to confirm (are there dedicated turn lanes?).

I can't really tell but judging from the width of the road, there are three lanes, the left lane turns left, middle thru, and right turns right.

Checking Street View from just last year shows fresh striping of three lanes in a left-straight-right configuration. It faded very badly.

Here's the configuration as of 2 Sept 2019:

(https://i.ibb.co/tLJNbtJ/Screenshot-2019-09-07-at-11-06-25.png) (https://ibb.co/VwqhvZq)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
As seen in some of the examples in the other threads, it is so much better to have dedicated signals with clear meaning than to rely on people stopping to read a wordy sign.

Protected turn - green arrow
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow
Permitted turn after yield (to opposing traffic and/or peds) - flashing yellow arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

No turn - red arrow

All manner of signalizations can be implemented using these common well understood elements.  There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 09, 2019, 07:01:25 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
As seen in some of the examples in the other threads, it is so much better to have dedicated signals with clear meaning than to rely on people stopping to read a wordy sign.

Protected turn - green arrow
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow
Permitted turn after yield (to opposing traffic and/or peds) - flashing yellow arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

No turn - red arrow

All manner of signalizations can be implemented using these common well understood elements.  There is no need to reinvent the wheel.
All FRA I've seen have it change from Flashing red straight to red. But it turns red when the main traffic turns red. So for roughly 4 seconds there is a flashing red arrow next to a yellow ball.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 09, 2019, 10:20:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 10, 2019, 12:16:53 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 09, 2019, 10:20:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).

MD annoyingly uses FRA in place of FYA.  In one of the intersections I'm familiar with, with a leading protected phase that goes from GA to YA then to FRA while thru traffic goes.  At the conclusion of the cycle, it goes from FRA to RA at the same time that yellow ball is on.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to creep to the middle during the green orb/FRA phase and does it mean that I'm not allowed to complete my turn during the yellow orb/solid RA phase?  I wish that MD would adopt a solid yellow arrow following FRA, as MUTCD recommends.

IMO, this would be far better served by the doghouse signal that used to be there.  This is a leading left without any real risk of yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 10, 2019, 12:16:53 AM
Quote from: roadfro on September 09, 2019, 10:20:05 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
2009 MUTCD doesn't think so. Steady yellow following a flashing red arrow is required (it's a standard; see 4D.18 p05 C).

MD annoyingly uses FRA in place of FYA.  In one of the intersections I'm familiar with, with a leading protected phase that goes from GA to YA then to FRA while thru traffic goes.  At the conclusion of the cycle, it goes from FRA to RA at the same time that yellow ball is on.  Does this mean that I'm not allowed to creep to the middle during the green orb/FRA phase and does it mean that I'm not allowed to complete my turn during the yellow orb/solid RA phase?  I wish that MD would adopt a solid yellow arrow following FRA, as MUTCD recommends.

It sounds to me like they had the same train of thought as myself. Flashing red arrows require each car to come to a complete stop. Yellow arrows do not (at least in states with permissive-yellow laws, where stopping on yellow is not required even if it can be safely done). To have a permissive phase, followed by a yet-more permissive phase, followed immediately by a red "no movement at all" phase, seems really strange. Fully-permissive phases, at least in my mind, should be followed by progressively more restrictive phases (eg FYA, YA, RA). It doesn't make much sense to me to briefly allow several cars to floor it through the intersection when they've previously been required to stop on red.

For the record, as would be the case at lagging flashing yellow arrows, you are still absolutely allowed to creep forward during the FRA phase; flashing red is a legal equivalent to "yield" once you've stopped. When the red arrow comes up, you finish your turn. The problem is that it shouldn't go solid red until after the circular-yellow phase. Otherwise you do have a few seconds of "yellow trap" (so to speak). If Maryland set up their FRA signals to only go solid red once the adjacent traffic has a circular-red indication, I don't think their current setup would be nearly as problematic.

I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 10, 2019, 08:04:38 PM
Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: stevashe on September 18, 2019, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2019, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on September 10, 2019, 08:04:38 PM
Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?

Yeah, if the red arrow is popping up before the oncoming traffic has their red light, that's definitely yellow trap. Some agencies still allow it/practice it (District DOT) but not usually in this manner.

Quote from: stevashe on September 18, 2019, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: stevashe on September 22, 2019, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: stevashe on September 18, 2019, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.
[/quote]

Yeah it seems quite silly, especially since there doesn't seem to be any special case at the intersections where it's present that would require a stop. I'd guess it's probably just something that was used before flashing yellow arrows came into use and they'll probably all be replaced at some point.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 27, 2019, 05:07:45 AM
Quote from: stevashe on September 22, 2019, 07:26:09 PM
Quote from: stevashe on September 18, 2019, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.

Yeah it seems quite silly, especially since there doesn't seem to be any special case at the intersections where it's present that would require a stop. I'd guess it's probably just something that was used before flashing yellow arrows came into use and they'll probably all be replaced at some point.
[/quote]

AFAIK, Maryland and Delaware have not adopted FYA at all.  There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead.  I agree that stopping is ridiculous here and most don't do it in practice.  The particular signal I had in mind involves leading lefts, so I don't even undrestand why they couldn't just leave the doghouses in place that used to be there.  (It seems most left turn signals in MD are some form of doghouse, allowing for leading lefts.)

* This is because there are many signals that flash overnight.  Flashing yellow has right of way over the flashing red.  (A signalized equivalent to a two-way stop.)  At the beginning of the FYA era, I could see this concern that people may think that the flashing yellow arrow would allow for an equivalent right of way (as opposed to the yield), but these signals are so common now that it shouldn't be a problem any longer.  Plus, MD and DE are small states that are near areas where FYA have been adopted, so I believe most MD and DE drivers know about FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MNHighwayMan on September 27, 2019, 05:49:01 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2019, 05:07:45 AM
There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead. 

I was going to say that that's why signs that say "left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow" exist, but as I've now discovered, such a sign is not actually in the 2012 MUTCD. This explains why I've seen a few different versions of such a sign–there is no standard one!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 27, 2019, 08:32:14 AM
Quote from: MNHighwayMan on September 27, 2019, 05:49:01 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2019, 05:07:45 AM
There was some concern that a FYA might be confused with allowing for the left turn to have right of way over opposing traffic*, so a FRA was instituted instead. 

I was going to say that that's why signs that say "left turn yield on flashing yellow arrow" exist, but as I've now discovered, such a sign is not actually in the 2012 MUTCD. This explains why I've seen a few different versions of such a sign–there is no standard one!
A sign was not developed when FYA was employed in the national 2009 MUTCD, as it was thought (based on the research) that the flashing yellow arrow concept would be intuitive enough to be understood without the need for an explanatory sign
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 27, 2019, 09:01:47 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 27, 2019, 05:07:45 AM
...MD and DE are small states that are near areas where FYA have been adopted, so I believe most MD and DE drivers know about FYA.

Doubtful. Just because they're small states doesn't mean drivers are any more likely to travel out of state.  MD and DE residents have what they need in their own states.   Likewise, residents in large states may encounter different travel issues within their own state (we can use Albany or Buffalo, compared to New York City, as a grand example of differences within the state).  NJ is smaller than MD, but I would doubt many know about the flashing yellow here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 27, 2019, 09:49:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2019, 02:25:08 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on September 10, 2019, 08:04:38 PM
Mrsman, I wonder if that signal is maybe not operating correctly. Maybe you should contact the traffic agency about it?

Yeah, if the red arrow is popping up before the oncoming traffic has their red light, that's definitely yellow trap. Some agencies still allow it/practice it (District DOT) but not usually in this manner.

Quote from: stevashe on September 18, 2019, 11:27:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 10, 2019, 01:55:19 AM
I've heard that, in areas where FRA signals are more common, it's relatively normal to not stop at all. In these situations, a yellow arrow would probably work just fine, as traffic is already rolling past the stop line as usual. But if drivers are following the law, stopping as required...that's where it becomes strange to me.

Can confirm that no one stopped on flashing red signals when I was in Michigan, though they have some FYA signals there as well, I assume they were newer. Plus, since there are of course some intersections with permissive lefts on green balls, that means there's three different signals that can all mean the same thing!

IIRC, from my occasional visits to Maryland, it's a similar situation. Not much stopping on red, even though the standard signs say "AFTER STOP". Then again, who can blame people for not stopping if it's clear? Especially if the adjacent through signal is green.

I was just at the intersection I mentioned earlier, Georgia Ave at Arocla Ave in Wheaton, MD and I got a better view of how the signal works.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.0471455,-77.051972,3a,75y,0.5h,73.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sjTD9Qd3yMocvNsgSqBK0Pg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

OK, I presented the northbound view along Georgia Ave.  On the right, on the northeast corner, is the new library that was under construction during GSV but has recently opened.  On the southeast corner is a fire station that has a big room on top that served in the capacity of a temporary library at the time of the GSV.  I believe that the reason the doghouses were changed to FRAs was due to the fire station driveway being on Arcola just east of the intersection.  There may be special signalization that takes place as the emergency vehicles come and go, but I'm not familiar with it.  The driveway's intersection with Arcola is controlled by a firehouse signal [red, yellow, flashing yellow], but there is no signal at the approach coming from the Georgia/Arcola intersection.

As you can see, there are several cars waiting on the southbound Georgia left onto eastbound Arcola and one school bus waiting on the northbound Georgia left onto westbound Arcola.  The southbound left is almost always busier than the northbound left.

Both lefts from Georgia to Arcola are controlled by the FRA.  A few years ago, there were doghouses instead controlling the left turns.  There is a sign that reads "Yield on Flashing Red Arrow after Stop".

At the beginning of the cycle, you have the leading lefts.  Both start at the same time, assuming that there are cars at both.  The northbound left will tend to term out before the southbound left.  When that happens, green arrow goes to yellow arrow which goes to solid red arrow.  Even while the southbound thru traffic gets released, the northbound left faces a solid red arrow.  Only once the northbound thru traffic gets released, at the end of the southbound left phase, does the red arrow start to flash.  (On the southbound side, it goes green arrow, yellow arrow, then solid red arrow briefly and then to flashing red arrow at the same time that northbound traffic gets released.)

At this point, you have the main phase of the signal, green for both north and south bound traffic, and flashing red arrow the whole way.  When this phase ends, the red arrow becomes solid at the same time that the thru traffic goes yellow, which I agree seems to pose a yellow trap problem.  Is there any guidance on yellow trap for a flashing red arrow, or are we to assume that it's equivalent to the guidance for a flashing yellow arrow?  After thru yellow is thru red and of course the red arrow is solid red during this phase.  Then, it's time for cross street traffic to go.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on November 14, 2019, 12:26:17 AM
While travelling back from Oxford Hills back to Sanford a few days ago, I found a FYA in Gray, Maine with a serious yellow trap issue (https://midimagic.sgc-hosting.com/yeltrap3.htm) involving recycling the pedestrian phase and inhibiting the FYA. This is located on Route 26 in Gray at the Hannaford and Libby Hill Road (near Gray-New Gloucester HS) intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9026131,-70.3456325,3a,75y,342.8h,88.33t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s7AqijBJGAN5Cm9hTRxFSag!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D7AqijBJGAN5Cm9hTRxFSag%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D55.30709%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656):



Is this controller programmed incorrectly? I thought there needs to be an all-red clear before inhibiting FYA for pedestrians, not inhibiting FYA, or at least stopping the oncoming traffic to prevent yellow trap. Note that normal phase skip does not yellow trap the left-turn movements at this intersection, and the FYA continues to stay red arrow until a car comes up to the turn lane or the side street calls a phase.

UPDATE 2023-06-06: Same yellow trap phasing still exists at that intersection. The FYA re-cycles if a left turning driver calls a protected left turn phase via phase skip.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 03:05:22 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 14, 2019, 12:26:17 AM
Is this controller programmed incorrectly?

Definitely! I understand programming the red arrow for the beginning of the phase, before the flashing yellow phase, but it should not be allowed to activate mid-cycle.

When you walked up, even though maybe they want the red arrow for when the pedestrian phase is active, it's obviously better (and safer) to just activate the walk signal with the FYA for those circumstances. Of course, if it's a pedestrian-heavy area, it's better just to keep the WALK sign on (activated automatically at the beginning of every phase, reactivating every 15-20 seconds or whatever), and just use a regular FYA during that phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 17, 2019, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 03:05:22 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 14, 2019, 12:26:17 AM
Is this controller programmed incorrectly?

Definitely! I understand programming the red arrow for the beginning of the phase, before the flashing yellow phase, but it should not be allowed to activate mid-cycle.

When you walked up, even though maybe they want the red arrow for when the pedestrian phase is active, it's obviously better (and safer) to just activate the walk signal with the FYA for those circumstances. Of course, if it's a pedestrian-heavy area, it's better just to keep the WALK sign on (activated automatically at the beginning of every phase, reactivating every 15-20 seconds or whatever), and just use a regular FYA during that phase.

I concur with this. There is no reason to move to immediate red arrow and force a yellow trap in this way.

It would make more sense for the main street here to have the pedestrian signal rest in walk and allow left turns across it in FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on November 20, 2019, 09:27:50 AM
Quote from: roadfro on November 17, 2019, 01:07:14 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 14, 2019, 03:05:22 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 14, 2019, 12:26:17 AM
Is this controller programmed incorrectly?

Definitely! I understand programming the red arrow for the beginning of the phase, before the flashing yellow phase, but it should not be allowed to activate mid-cycle.

When you walked up, even though maybe they want the red arrow for when the pedestrian phase is active, it's obviously better (and safer) to just activate the walk signal with the FYA for those circumstances. Of course, if it's a pedestrian-heavy area, it's better just to keep the WALK sign on (activated automatically at the beginning of every phase, reactivating every 15-20 seconds or whatever), and just use a regular FYA during that phase.

I concur with this. There is no reason to move to immediate red arrow and force a yellow trap in this way.

It would make more sense for the main street here to have the pedestrian signal rest in walk and allow left turns across it in FYA.

After getting back to a signal tech, I got the following response:
QuoteAfter talking to a signal tech, we determined that the situation shown in your video is not a yellow trap as the adjacent thru phase remains green. As such the "false"  sense of oncoming traffic receiving a yellow/red indication doesn't occur.

He also confirmed that the controller would need to cycle through a barrier before the FYA would be serviced again, which would be triggered by a vehicle putting a call on the protected phase.

Resting in walk would require the signal to service the entire pedestrian clearance (Flashing Don't Walk) before servicing a call on a conflicting phase. Depending on the crossing, this could add 15-20 seconds of delay for the sidestreet or a mainline left turn, which would be unacceptable late at night. Additionally, at this intersection with the FYA phase inhibit with the Walk, the FYA would never be active. 

The concept of yellow trap stems from the permissive left turn driver's assumption that if one thru phase is terminating then the other thru phase is also terminating. In this scenario, neither thru phase is terminating thus the yellow trap situation never occurs. Through the FYA indication termination sequence the permissive left turn driver is warned that the permissive phase is ending and that he should stop at the stop bar. As the adjacent thru indications do not terminate then the driver has no reason to assume the opposing thru indications are terminating.

I thought Section 4D.05.03.E of the MUTCD prohibits this phasing (or any yellow trap):

QuoteSection 4D.05 Application of Steady Signal Indications
E. A steady YELLOW ARROW signal indication:

1. Shall not be displayed to terminate a flashing arrow signal indication on an approach from which drivers are turning left permissively or making a U-turn to the left permissively unless one of the following conditions exists:

A. A steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is also simultaneously being displayed to the opposing approach;

B. An engineering study has determined that, because of unique intersection conditions, the condition described in Item (a) cannot reasonably be implemented without causing significant operational or safety problems and that the volume of impacted left-turning or U-turning traffic is relatively low, and those left-turning or U-turning drivers are advised that a steady CIRCULAR YELLOW signal indication is not simultaneously being displayed to the opposing traffic if this operation occurs continuously by the installation near the left-most signal head of a W25-1 sign (see Section 2C.48) with the legend ONCOMING TRAFFIC HAS EXTENDED GREEN; or

C. Drivers are advised of the operation if it occurs only occasionally, such as during a preemption sequence, by the installation near the left-most signal head of a W25-2 sign (see Section 2C.48) with the legend ONCOMING TRAFFIC MAY HAVE EXTENDED GREEN.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 20, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
^^^^^^
What in the fuck is he talking about? Was he drunk when he wrote that reply? Their setup is clearly prohibited by that section you quoted. It is a classic yellow trap scenario. Well, maybe not "classic" since he seems to think that yellow trap can only occur with "yield on green" signals, but the operation they've created is still very much a yellow trap.

If traffic is waiting at a permissive left turn, and the red arrow comes up, they will assume that oncoming traffic also has a red, and will finish their turn. That is a very dangerous setup that they have created, and the fact that they don't recognize it alarms me greatly, considering that they (I hope) are PEs.

"Rest in walk" also does not need activating at all times of day. Several jurisdictions around me use "rest in walk" during times of high pedestrian activity, with push-button activation being reserved for quieter hours (late at night, early morning).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on November 20, 2019, 02:26:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 20, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
^^^^^^
What in the fuck is he talking about? Was he drunk when he wrote that reply? Their setup is clearly prohibited by that section you quoted. It is a classic yellow trap scenario. Well, maybe not "classic" since he seems to think that yellow trap can only occur with "yield on green" signals, but the operation they've created is still very much a yellow trap.

If traffic is waiting at a permissive left turn, and the red arrow comes up, they will assume that oncoming traffic also has a red, and will finish their turn. That is a very dangerous setup that they have created, and the fact that they don't recognize it alarms me greatly, considering that they (I hope) are PEs.

"Rest in walk" also does not need activating at all times of day. Several jurisdictions around me use "rest in walk" during times of high pedestrian activity, with push-button activation being reserved for quieter hours (late at night, early morning).

I believe it is also common for many to think that the FYA cures yellow-trap.  That is not the case.  Clearly this example is dangerous and it is a shame that the traffic engineer has not recognized that.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on November 20, 2019, 02:54:09 PM
I may have mentioned this way earlier in the thread but I do not believe the FYA can come to CT unless the traffic control device statue is revised to permit it.

QuoteSec. 14-299. Traffic control signals. Right turn on red. (a) For the purpose of standardization and uniformity, no installation of any traffic control signal light shall be made by any town, city or borough until the same has been approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration. Such approval shall be based on necessity for, location of and type of such signal light and shall be applied for on a form supplied by the Office of the State Traffic Administration and shall be submitted to said office by the traffic authority having jurisdiction. Approval of any such signal light may be revoked by the Office of the State Traffic Administration at any time if said office deems such revocation to be in the interest of public safety, and thereupon such signal lights shall be removed by the traffic authority having jurisdiction.

(b) When traffic at an intersection is alternately directed to proceed and to stop by the use of signals exhibiting colored lights or lighted arrows, successively one at a time or in combination, only the colors green, red and yellow shall be used, except for special pedestrian control signals carrying word legends, said lights shall apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians and shall indicate the following:

(1) Circular green alone: Vehicular traffic facing a green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign or marking at such place prohibits either such turn or straight through movement, except that such traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and vehicles lawfully within a crosswalk or the intersection at the time such signal was exhibited; pedestrians facing the green signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, may proceed across the highway within any marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

(3) Red alone: Vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal alone shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and remain standing until the next indication is shown; provided, on or after July 1, 1979, vehicular traffic traveling in the travel lane nearest the right hand curb or other defined edge of the roadway, unless a sign approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration has been erected in the appropriate place prohibiting this movement, may cautiously enter the intersection to make a right turn onto a two-way street or onto another one-way street on which all the traffic is moving to such vehicle's right after such vehicle has stopped as required in this subdivision and yielded the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection. Pedestrians facing a steady red signal alone, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, shall not enter the roadway.

(4) Green arrow: Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time, but such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully within the intersection.

(5) Whenever special pedestrian-control signals exhibiting the words "Walk"  or "Don't Walk"  are in place such signals shall indicate as follows: "Walk" : Pedestrians facing such signals may proceed across the roadway in the direction of the signal and shall be given the right-of-way by the drivers of all vehicles; "Don't Walk" : No pedestrian shall start to cross the roadway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island while the "Don't Walk"  signal is showing.

(c) When an illuminated flashing red or yellow signal is used in a traffic sign or signal, it shall require obedience by vehicular traffic as follows:

(1) Flashing red: When a red lens is illuminated by rapid intermittent flashes, drivers of vehicles shall stop before entering the nearest crosswalk at an intersection, or at a limit line when marked or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and the right to proceed shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a stop sign.

(2) When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, drivers of vehicles facing such signal may proceed through the intersection or past such signal only with caution.

(d) Lenses of the following colors only shall be used and shall be arranged vertically in the signal face or, when necessary, horizontally, and shall conform to the following positions: When arranged vertically, red shall be located at the top, yellow shall be located directly below red and the remaining indications below the yellow in the following order: Flashing yellow, circular green, vertical arrow, left-turn arrow and right-turn arrow, as needed; when arranged horizontally, red shall be located at the left, yellow shall be located directly to the right of red and the remaining indications to the right of yellow in the following order: Flashing yellow, left-turn arrow, circular green, vertical arrow and right-turn arrow, as needed.

(e) When lane-direction-control signals are placed over the individual lanes of a street or highway, vehicular traffic may travel in any lane over which a green arrow signal is shown, but shall not enter or travel in any lane over which a red X signal is shown.

(f) If a traffic control signal, approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration, is erected and maintained at a place other than an intersection, the provisions of this section shall be applicable except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Any stop required shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made, but in the absence of any sign or marking the stop shall be made at the signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on November 20, 2019, 05:21:03 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, that situation might be dangerous but it may not meet the specific technical definition of a yellow trap. If you want to pursue the question, you might contact the Federal Highway Administration for their opinion.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 20, 2019, 06:40:21 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on November 20, 2019, 05:21:03 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, that situation might be dangerous but it may not meet the specific technical definition of a yellow trap. If you want to pursue the question, you might contact the Federal Highway Administration for their opinion.

A steady yellow arrow may not be displayed unless accompanied by either an oncoming circular yellow, or an "EXTENDED GREEN" sign. The oncoming traffic has a green display throughout the steady yellow arrow and steady red arrow phase for the left turn. Ergo, yellow trap. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

On the other hand, if the PE in charge is some crotchety old man, it may not meet his definition because he falsely assumes yellow trap is only possible with the older "yield on green" signals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on November 21, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 20, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
^^^^^^
What in the fuck is he talking about? Was he drunk when he wrote that reply? Their setup is clearly prohibited by that section you quoted. It is a classic yellow trap scenario. Well, maybe not "classic" since he seems to think that yellow trap can only occur with "yield on green" signals, but the operation they've created is still very much a yellow trap.

If traffic is waiting at a permissive left turn, and the red arrow comes up, they will assume that oncoming traffic also has a red, and will finish their turn. That is a very dangerous setup that they have created, and the fact that they don't recognize it alarms me greatly, considering that they (I hope) are PEs.

"Rest in walk" also does not need activating at all times of day. Several jurisdictions around me use "rest in walk" during times of high pedestrian activity, with push-button activation being reserved for quieter hours (late at night, early morning).

I agree, Jake. The reply also says that as the FYA cycles off, turning traffic should stop at the stop bar. Well yeah, but what about the vehicle that legally pulled into the intersection waiting for a gap in left turn traffic...? If that isn't a yellow trap, I don't know what is...

If they're not going to change the controller programming, they at least need to put up the "oncoming traffic may have extended green" sign.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on November 21, 2019, 04:00:18 PM
Quote from: roadfro on November 21, 2019, 10:51:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 20, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
^^^^^^
What in the fuck is he talking about? Was he drunk when he wrote that reply? Their setup is clearly prohibited by that section you quoted. It is a classic yellow trap scenario. Well, maybe not "classic" since he seems to think that yellow trap can only occur with "yield on green" signals, but the operation they've created is still very much a yellow trap.

If traffic is waiting at a permissive left turn, and the red arrow comes up, they will assume that oncoming traffic also has a red, and will finish their turn. That is a very dangerous setup that they have created, and the fact that they don't recognize it alarms me greatly, considering that they (I hope) are PEs.

"Rest in walk" also does not need activating at all times of day. Several jurisdictions around me use "rest in walk" during times of high pedestrian activity, with push-button activation being reserved for quieter hours (late at night, early morning).

I agree, Jake. The reply also says that as the FYA cycles off, turning traffic should stop at the stop bar. Well yeah, but what about the vehicle that legally pulled into the intersection waiting for a gap in left turn traffic...? If that isn't a yellow trap, I don't know what is...

If they're not going to change the controller programming, they at least need to put up the "oncoming traffic may have extended green" sign.

I thought that Maine has a permissive yellow law... meaning that it is legal to enter the intersection on green and yellow AND it is legal to enter the intersection on flashing yellow or circular green for a permissive left turn so at least the leg the driver is into isn't blocked, and that the driver who entered legally on such indications can complete their turn when it is safe to do so once the permissive phase is ending. This sentence by the signal tech seems to convey that drivers do not (or cannot) wait in the intersection to turn left permissively??

QuoteThrough the FYA indication termination sequence the permissive left turn driver is warned that the permissive phase is ending and that he should stop at the stop bar. As the adjacent thru indications do not terminate then the driver has no reason to assume the opposing thru indications are terminating.

Quote from: Maine Legislature Title 29-A: MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC, Chapter 19: OPERATION, Subchapter 1: RULES OF THE ROAD
§2057. Traffic-control devices
1. Lighted devices.  A traffic-control device may emit only the colors green, red and yellow, except for a pedestrian signal carrying a legend. The lights have the following meanings.
B. A yellow light:
(1) If steady and circular or an arrow, means the operator must take warning that a green light is being terminated or a red light will be exhibited immediately.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on November 27, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on November 20, 2019, 02:54:09 PM
I may have mentioned this way earlier in the thread but I do not believe the FYA can come to CT unless the traffic control device statue is revised to permit it.

QuoteSec. 14-299. Traffic control signals. Right turn on red. (a) For the purpose of standardization and uniformity, no installation of any traffic control signal light shall be made by any town, city or borough until the same has been approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration. Such approval shall be based on necessity for, location of and type of such signal light and shall be applied for on a form supplied by the Office of the State Traffic Administration and shall be submitted to said office by the traffic authority having jurisdiction. Approval of any such signal light may be revoked by the Office of the State Traffic Administration at any time if said office deems such revocation to be in the interest of public safety, and thereupon such signal lights shall be removed by the traffic authority having jurisdiction.

(b) When traffic at an intersection is alternately directed to proceed and to stop by the use of signals exhibiting colored lights or lighted arrows, successively one at a time or in combination, only the colors green, red and yellow shall be used, except for special pedestrian control signals carrying word legends, said lights shall apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians and shall indicate the following:

(1) Circular green alone: Vehicular traffic facing a green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign or marking at such place prohibits either such turn or straight through movement, except that such traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and vehicles lawfully within a crosswalk or the intersection at the time such signal was exhibited; pedestrians facing the green signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, may proceed across the highway within any marked or unmarked crosswalk.

(2) Yellow: Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green movement is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter, when vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the intersection unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot be made in safety; pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

(3) Red alone: Vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal alone shall stop before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection or, if none, then before entering the intersection and remain standing until the next indication is shown; provided, on or after July 1, 1979, vehicular traffic traveling in the travel lane nearest the right hand curb or other defined edge of the roadway, unless a sign approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration has been erected in the appropriate place prohibiting this movement, may cautiously enter the intersection to make a right turn onto a two-way street or onto another one-way street on which all the traffic is moving to such vehicle's right after such vehicle has stopped as required in this subdivision and yielded the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection. Pedestrians facing a steady red signal alone, except when directed by separate pedestrian-control signals, shall not enter the roadway.

(4) Green arrow: Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may cautiously enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by such arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time, but such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within a crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully within the intersection.

(5) Whenever special pedestrian-control signals exhibiting the words "Walk"  or "Don't Walk"  are in place such signals shall indicate as follows: "Walk" : Pedestrians facing such signals may proceed across the roadway in the direction of the signal and shall be given the right-of-way by the drivers of all vehicles; "Don't Walk" : No pedestrian shall start to cross the roadway in the direction of such signal, but any pedestrian who has partially completed his crossing on the walk signal shall proceed to a sidewalk or safety island while the "Don't Walk"  signal is showing.

(c) When an illuminated flashing red or yellow signal is used in a traffic sign or signal, it shall require obedience by vehicular traffic as follows:

(1) Flashing red: When a red lens is illuminated by rapid intermittent flashes, drivers of vehicles shall stop before entering the nearest crosswalk at an intersection, or at a limit line when marked or, if none, then before entering the intersection, and the right to proceed shall be subject to the rules applicable after making a stop at a stop sign.

(2) When a yellow lens is illuminated with rapid intermittent flashes, drivers of vehicles facing such signal may proceed through the intersection or past such signal only with caution.

(d) Lenses of the following colors only shall be used and shall be arranged vertically in the signal face or, when necessary, horizontally, and shall conform to the following positions: When arranged vertically, red shall be located at the top, yellow shall be located directly below red and the remaining indications below the yellow in the following order: Flashing yellow, circular green, vertical arrow, left-turn arrow and right-turn arrow, as needed; when arranged horizontally, red shall be located at the left, yellow shall be located directly to the right of red and the remaining indications to the right of yellow in the following order: Flashing yellow, left-turn arrow, circular green, vertical arrow and right-turn arrow, as needed.

(e) When lane-direction-control signals are placed over the individual lanes of a street or highway, vehicular traffic may travel in any lane over which a green arrow signal is shown, but shall not enter or travel in any lane over which a red X signal is shown.

(f) If a traffic control signal, approved by the Office of the State Traffic Administration, is erected and maintained at a place other than an intersection, the provisions of this section shall be applicable except as to those provisions which by their nature can have no application. Any stop required shall be made at a sign or marking on the pavement indicating where the stop shall be made, but in the absence of any sign or marking the stop shall be made at the signal.

I believe MD and DE may have similar rules.  It is definitely the case that there is a feeling that flashing yellow may be interpreted as giving right of way, rather than yielding right of way for others.  This is why instead of FYA, we have flashing red arrows.  Annoyingly, they require a full stop, but otherwise have the same rules as FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on December 06, 2019, 08:47:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on November 27, 2019, 03:33:44 PM
I believe MD and DE may have similar rules.  It is definitely the case that there is a feeling that flashing yellow may be interpreted as giving right of way, rather than yielding right of way for others.  This is why instead of FYA, we have flashing red arrows.  Annoyingly, they require a full stop, but otherwise have the same rules as FYAs.

The only challenge is when said flashing red arrow is at an intersection with a red light camera.  Technically, they could program the camera to flash if you don't stop completely behind the white line before moving forward to turn.  However, in the case I have encountered this, DelDOT seems to let this slide.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on January 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
This FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/AQvPyR51RMnTR77r9) in Myerstown, PA has no green arrow. It only exists to allow for Dallas phasing here, as the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. How common is this type of three-section FYA signal nationwide? I thought this was a unique setup that PennDOT decided to use here until I found another by accident in Street View.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 20, 2020, 09:26:18 PM
NYSDOT has installed some like that on side streets and shopping center exits on Long Island.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2020, 01:19:59 AM
I can't recall seeing anything similar to that PA signal around here in WA. Most cities install protected/permissive flashing yellow arrow displays, and then choose how to operate them (fully protected, protected/permissive, or fully-permissive).

Couple examples: this FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/CqhZKpk5zC3XVW8g6) that has a lagging green that almost never activates; or, this other FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/G2NC97waSp794vqQ8) that is solid red during huge portions of the day. Both are capable of identical operations, but are operated differently.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 21, 2020, 08:04:51 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
This FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/AQvPyR51RMnTR77r9) in Myerstown, PA has no green arrow. It only exists to allow for Dallas phasing here, as the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. How common is this type of three-section FYA signal nationwide? I thought this was a unique setup that PennDOT decided to use here until I found another by accident in Street View.

NYC has plenty of 3 arrow FYAs, mostly for leading pedestrian intervals.

Also that signal doesnt look like it is used for Dallas phasing based on streetview. Looks like it is used in place of just a green ball for permissive turns.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Eth on January 21, 2020, 08:07:20 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
This FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/AQvPyR51RMnTR77r9) in Myerstown, PA has no green arrow. It only exists to allow for Dallas phasing here, as the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. How common is this type of three-section FYA signal nationwide? I thought this was a unique setup that PennDOT decided to use here until I found another by accident in Street View.

I've seen several of them scattered around the Atlanta area, typically at intersections with fairly low left-turn volume.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 21, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
I few are in Massachusetts: https://goo.gl/maps/kctqKf7yA6o1eqPu5


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: spooky on January 21, 2020, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 21, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
I few are in Massachusetts: https://goo.gl/maps/kctqKf7yA6o1eqPu5


iPhone

another MA example: https://goo.gl/maps/bwda3S37HCa2Lkxd6

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 21, 2020, 03:12:14 PM
Quote from: spooky on January 21, 2020, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 21, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
I few are in Massachusetts: https://goo.gl/maps/kctqKf7yA6o1eqPu5


iPhone

another MA example: https://goo.gl/maps/bwda3S37HCa2Lkxd6

There are three in New Hampshire that I am aware of in Concord (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2042048,-71.5356766,3a,75y,339.73h,78.28t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1seIaNgwkTvmaHI9mN7Dqv9Q!2e0!5s20180801T000000!7i13312!8i6656), Dover (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1961795,-70.8742967,3a,15y,187.99h,87.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1szwXK5fVDWZ3onv0DULTiUQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), and in Portsmouth (At Woodbury and Granite - Street View isn't up to date). Maine has one left turn FYA in Skowhegan (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7668493,-69.7202719,3a,17.6y,356.85h,90.97t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sBnA4JGnB6jB7ceqk5bzADA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DBnA4JGnB6jB7ceqk5bzADA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D348.94214%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192) (although an illegal use), and some 3-section right turn FYA's are planned in South Portland (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6337784,-70.3146004,3a,37.8y,316.63h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7QH4rfVljkodG5UEmIuFpQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (FYA will be located at the right turn island) and in Sanford as well...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 21, 2020, 03:56:23 PM
Quote from: spooky on January 21, 2020, 02:59:33 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 21, 2020, 02:50:29 PM
I few are in Massachusetts: https://goo.gl/maps/kctqKf7yA6o1eqPu5

another MA example: https://goo.gl/maps/bwda3S37HCa2Lkxd6

OT: Signal placement (overhead near, far corner) reminds me of this intersection near Bothell, WA: https://goo.gl/maps/6rJ8izjcqWAPRDp58
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on January 21, 2020, 04:18:42 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on January 21, 2020, 08:04:51 AM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
This FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/AQvPyR51RMnTR77r9) in Myerstown, PA has no green arrow. It only exists to allow for Dallas phasing here, as the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. How common is this type of three-section FYA signal nationwide? I thought this was a unique setup that PennDOT decided to use here until I found another by accident in Street View.

NYC has plenty of 3 arrow FYAs, mostly for leading pedestrian intervals.

Also that signal doesnt look like it is used for Dallas phasing based on streetview. Looks like it is used in place of just a green ball for permissive turns.

It's definitely used for Dallas phasing. I've seen it in action on this specific signal, and the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. PennDOT seems to use Dallas phasing at every FYA intersection where one direction has a protected left and the straight through green. I've never seen them use a signal like Amtrakprod's example that serve literally no extra purpose compared to just having standard signals, and whenever PennDOT wants to allow for adding an FYA signal for protected left turns later when traffic volumes increase, they just use a longer mast arm and with an empty spot where it'd be.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cjw2001 on January 23, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
Not uncommon for low volume left turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0003317,-86.0580869,3a,75y,80.63h,87.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK43RUIVje9moDEWrOSK3wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9557759,-86.0602939,3a,75y,76.5h,85.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si6LjB_WTW_ogHWXSlajxDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
Quote from: cjw2001 on January 23, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
Not uncommon for low volume left turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.0003317,-86.0580869,3a,75y,80.63h,87.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sK43RUIVje9moDEWrOSK3wA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9557759,-86.0602939,3a,75y,76.5h,85.76t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si6LjB_WTW_ogHWXSlajxDQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


I'm surprised at how many of those three-section greenless FYA signals have been linked that don't seem to have a purpose for being there, since there's no standard FYA signal in the other direction. The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.

If the agency wants a signal for each lane, then the FYA without green would have to be used for the left turn movement per 2009 MUTCD. Even if signal-per-lane isn't agency policy, it doesn't hurt anything to use FYA for this application–it helps reinforce the "yield" condition for permitted lefts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Maine's first right turn FYAs went operational on 21 January 2020 in South Portland at Westbrook and Western Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6337784,-70.3146004,3a,37.8y,316.63h,88.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s7QH4rfVljkodG5UEmIuFpQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656). The signal is RA-SYA-FYA, with the signal only changing when a pedestrian is crossing, replacing a yield sign controlling the right turn movement.



Quote from: Roadsguy on January 20, 2020, 03:48:12 PM
This FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/AQvPyR51RMnTR77r9) in Myerstown, PA has no green arrow. It only exists to allow for Dallas phasing here, as the other direction has a standard four-section FYA. How common is this type of three-section FYA signal nationwide? I thought this was a unique setup that PennDOT decided to use here until I found another by accident in Street View.

Also, how common is it for 3-section permissive FYA's steady indications be a ball instead of an arrow? The signal in Portsmouth NH I mentioned earlier uses R-Y-FYA faces instead of the RA-SYA-FYA typically seen...
(https://i.ibb.co/kXJgyWp/IMG-5074.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L1rzP2M)
(https://i.ibb.co/8rXTx1z/IMG-5075.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n7RZ1x3)
(https://i.ibb.co/WKVWZsb/IMG-5076.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzXxpD7)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.

If the agency wants a signal for each lane, then the FYA without green would have to be used for the left turn movement per 2009 MUTCD. Even if signal-per-lane isn't agency policy, it doesn't hurt anything to use FYA for this application–it helps reinforce the "yield" condition for permitted lefts.

I agree that it doesn't hurt anything. I was simply pointing out that it doesn't necessarily add any function that wouldn't normally exist, short of an LPI of sorts.

So something like this wouldn't be allowed anymore? https://goo.gl/maps/KrC9G4kAAgQXbZZk6
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Also, how common is it for 3-section permissive FYA's steady indications be a ball instead of an arrow? The signal in Portsmouth NH I mentioned earlier uses R-Y-FYA faces instead of the RA-SYA-FYA typically seen...

[images clipped]

How common? Not particularly, because you lose functionality when you use red orbs, as the red orbs cannot be displayed simultaneously with green orbs. In places where there is a leading pedestrian interval, the red arrow might stay lit for 3-7 seconds (or longer) at the beginning of a through phase; for those situations, a red arrow is required.

As well, if the signal has a protected phase (not sure if your example does...there are numerous 3-section FYA signals with bimodal displays in my area), the end of the protected phase of any FYA is normally marked by a red indication, before being followed by a flashing yellow arrow. Unless the oncoming left turns went at exactly the same time, it's possible that the left turn light would go red after the through traffic received their green signal. In this case, you would (again) have a red orb and green orb displayed simultaneously, if only for a few seconds. In any case, it's not allowed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.

If the agency wants a signal for each lane, then the FYA without green would have to be used for the left turn movement per 2009 MUTCD. Even if signal-per-lane isn't agency policy, it doesn't hurt anything to use FYA for this application–it helps reinforce the "yield" condition for permitted lefts.

I agree that it doesn't hurt anything. I was simply pointing out that it doesn't necessarily add any function that wouldn't normally exist, short of an LPI of sorts.

So something like this wouldn't be allowed anymore? https://goo.gl/maps/KrC9G4kAAgQXbZZk6

That's a tough call. A circular green mounted over a left turn lane is not really allowed anymore, which this signal seems to have. This situation is complicated by the curve on the approach and the leftmost signal head still being one of the two primary signal faces on the approach.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2020, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 03:19:19 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 12:42:48 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.

If the agency wants a signal for each lane, then the FYA without green would have to be used for the left turn movement per 2009 MUTCD. Even if signal-per-lane isn't agency policy, it doesn't hurt anything to use FYA for this application–it helps reinforce the "yield" condition for permitted lefts.

I agree that it doesn't hurt anything. I was simply pointing out that it doesn't necessarily add any function that wouldn't normally exist, short of an LPI of sorts.

So something like this wouldn't be allowed anymore? https://goo.gl/maps/KrC9G4kAAgQXbZZk6

That's a tough call. A circular green mounted over a left turn lane is not really allowed anymore, which this signal seems to have. This situation is complicated by the curve on the approach and the leftmost signal head still being one of the two primary signal faces on the approach.

Sure they are. There are entire states that don't use flashing yellow arrows, and many intersections dont have fyas on all legs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 05:06:57 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Also, how common is it for 3-section permissive FYA's steady indications be a ball instead of an arrow? The signal in Portsmouth NH I mentioned earlier uses R-Y-FYA faces instead of the RA-SYA-FYA typically seen...

[images clipped]

How common? Not particularly, because you lose functionality when you use red orbs, as the red orbs cannot be displayed simultaneously with green orbs. In places where there is a leading pedestrian interval, the red arrow might stay lit for 3-7 seconds (or longer) at the beginning of a through phase; for those situations, a red arrow is required.

As well, if the signal has a protected phase (not sure if your example does...there are numerous 3-section FYA signals with bimodal displays in my area), the end of the protected phase of any FYA is normally marked by a red indication, before being followed by a flashing yellow arrow. Unless the oncoming left turns went at exactly the same time, it's possible that the left turn light would go red after the through traffic received their green signal. In this case, you would (again) have a red orb and green orb displayed simultaneously, if only for a few seconds. In any case, it's not allowed.

These signals are permissive only (bottom section is yellow only, not bimodal). These signals replaced an older pair of incandescent signals, using the shared green ball for permissive movements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 05:24:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 24, 2020, 11:17:07 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on January 24, 2020, 10:26:29 PM
The one in Myerstown (and the one in your second link, cjw2001) is there for Dallas phasing, but having such signals on both directions of the road (like your first link) doesn't seem to add anything at all other than having an FYA for the sake of an FYA. At no point would permissive left turns be allowed while through traffic is stopped.

The Noblesville area may have a pedestrian-override for the FYA, where it would stay red if the crosswalk activates at the beginning of the through phase. This is fairly common in the Seattle area (though not in Seattle itself).

Other than that, yeah, they don't add much.

Another reason for using the 3-section FYA would be for preemption. In my area, for emergency vehicle preemption, when right of way is requested, some of the signals except for the direction of the emergency vehicle go to yellow to red, and the signals in the direction of the emergency vehicle get a protected green in all directions. Although most of the installs I've seen are at protected-only and FYA signals, I have seen instances where a yellow trap was created where the green ball was changing to yellow to red in one leg, but the opposing thru green remained lit.

The same could also be said about rail preemptions as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 05:36:38 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 05:24:42 PM
Another reason for using the 3-section FYA would be for preemption. In my area, for emergency vehicle preemption, when right of way is requested, some of the signals except for the direction of the emergency vehicle go to yellow to red, and the signals in the direction of the emergency vehicle get a protected green in all directions. Although most of the installs I've seen are at protected-only and FYA signals, I have seen instances where a yellow trap was created where the green ball was changing to yellow to red in one leg, but the opposing thru green remained lit.

The same could also be said about rail preemptions as well.

I thought about that at the time. It would be an awkward installation of preemption software, because the direction of the approaching emergency service would only ever see a flashing yellow arrow, even if the oncoming direction has a red light; better than having to wait for traffic to stop to make any left turns, but not as good as having a green arrow. Still, for the oncoming left turn, it is definitely better than no left turn signal, where the chance for yellow trap exists. Of course, without a left turn signal, preemption should not activate any sort of split-phasing mode because of the chance for yellow trap.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 25, 2020, 05:06:57 PM
These signals are permissive only (bottom section is yellow only, not bimodal). These signals replaced an older pair of incandescent signals, using the shared green ball for permissive movements.

Okay, good. In that case, I guess the FYA signal is there only for extra reinforcement of the required yield, so a red orb is fine.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2020, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
A circular green mounted over a left turn lane is not really allowed anymore, which this signal seems to have. This situation is complicated by the curve on the approach and the leftmost signal head still being one of the two primary signal faces on the approach.

Sure they are. There are entire states that don't use flashing yellow arrows, and many intersections dont have fyas on all legs.

Yes, but in those states, there may not be a "signal per lane" requirement. Places like California don't have to worry about this, because they don't use a signal-per-lane strategy (fine by me, for the record). Instead of mounting all the primary signals overhead, they mount their extra signals on the right and left corners (https://goo.gl/maps/Tcbv7voxB5tgw9X49); even with two or three (or more) approach lanes, there is usually only one overhead signal, at least in Los Angeles.

The MUTCD may not permit green orbs directly ahead of left turn lanes, but there's no rule against placing them on the left and right corners. Places like parts of Washington, most of Oregon and Idaho, and much of the east coast, generally won't install signals on the left corner, but it's preferable to everything overhead with a required permissive-only FYA (at least to me).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 25, 2020, 08:46:21 PM
For the record, there is no signal per-lane requirement in the MUTCD. It is a recommendation shown as Support in sec. 4D.11.06. I don't know if any individual states have such a policy but New York does not.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2020, 03:57:56 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 25, 2020, 08:46:21 PM
For the record, there is no signal per-lane requirement in the MUTCD. It is a recommendation shown as Support in sec. 4D.11.06. I don't know if any individual states have such a policy but New York does not.

IIRC, only a few states have genuine signal-per-lane requirements. Wisconsin (I've seen the written rule) and Nevada (not seen any new installs that don't have one signal per lane) both spring to mind. I'm sure there's a couple more.

In some states, it can be hard to tell, as many will post two overhead primary signal faces for all approaches. Basically, you need at least three through (or through/right) lanes to determine an area's rule on the matter. In my area, it's mostly individual cities that make the call, not the state (see: before (https://goo.gl/maps/nndaHXN2t1qi89ob7) & after (https://goo.gl/maps/bXG4Zw8JyQdbuqRaA) the rule change in Federal Way, WA).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 26, 2020, 02:57:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2020, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
A circular green mounted over a left turn lane is not really allowed anymore, which this signal seems to have. This situation is complicated by the curve on the approach and the leftmost signal head still being one of the two primary signal faces on the approach.

Sure they are. There are entire states that don't use flashing yellow arrows, and many intersections dont have fyas on all legs.

Yes, but in those states, there may not be a "signal per lane" requirement. Places like California don't have to worry about this, because they don't use a signal-per-lane strategy (fine by me, for the record). Instead of mounting all the primary signals overhead, they mount their extra signals on the right and left corners (https://goo.gl/maps/Tcbv7voxB5tgw9X49); even with two or three (or more) approach lanes, there is usually only one overhead signal, at least in Los Angeles.

The MUTCD may not permit green orbs directly ahead of left turn lanes, but there's no rule against placing them on the left and right corners. Places like parts of Washington, most of Oregon and Idaho, and much of the east coast, generally won't install signals on the left corner, but it's preferable to everything overhead with a required permissive-only FYA (at least to me).

Went back and checked–turns out I was partially wrong. The MUTCD doesn't outright prohibit a circular green over a left turn lane, but Sec 4D.09p11 4D.13p09 gives guidance that a circular green should not be placed over a left turn lane (or post mounted on a far side median) at new or reconstructed signal installations. That's a clear indication that such placement is not preferred.

EDIT: Corrected MUTCD citation
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM
Roadfro, the section you cited where it says that is actually 4D.13.09, Guidance. All of us need to be careful in quoting the Manual, as sometimes stuff that we think are standards are actually only support, or guidance, in other words recommendations, not absolute rules. I've made that mistake a few times.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2020, 08:51:07 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 26, 2020, 02:57:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 25, 2020, 05:43:43 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 25, 2020, 05:01:29 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 25, 2020, 04:25:30 PM
A circular green mounted over a left turn lane is not really allowed anymore, which this signal seems to have. This situation is complicated by the curve on the approach and the leftmost signal head still being one of the two primary signal faces on the approach.

Sure they are. There are entire states that don't use flashing yellow arrows, and many intersections dont have fyas on all legs.

Yes, but in those states, there may not be a "signal per lane" requirement. Places like California don't have to worry about this, because they don't use a signal-per-lane strategy (fine by me, for the record). Instead of mounting all the primary signals overhead, they mount their extra signals on the right and left corners (https://goo.gl/maps/Tcbv7voxB5tgw9X49); even with two or three (or more) approach lanes, there is usually only one overhead signal, at least in Los Angeles.

The MUTCD may not permit green orbs directly ahead of left turn lanes, but there's no rule against placing them on the left and right corners. Places like parts of Washington, most of Oregon and Idaho, and much of the east coast, generally won't install signals on the left corner, but it's preferable to everything overhead with a required permissive-only FYA (at least to me).

Went back and checked–turns out I was partially wrong. The MUTCD doesn't outright prohibit a circular green over a left turn lane, but Sec [4D.13.09] gives guidance that a circular green should not be placed over a left turn lane (or post mounted on a far side median) at new or reconstructed signal installations. That's a clear indication that such placement is not preferred.
Quote from: SignBridge on January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM
All of us need to be careful in quoting the Manual, as sometimes stuff that we think are standards are actually only support, or guidance, in other words recommendations, not absolute rules. I've made that mistake a few times.

Yeah, it continues to surprise me how many things are actually just guidance or support. I'm glad the FHWA isn't more restrictive on the matter, otherwise a lot of states would be running around with their heads on fire trying to figure out how to change their standard plans. After all, few if any states seem to have identical standards.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 26, 2020, 09:05:51 PM
Well, LOL that's probably a good thing. It would be really boring if every state did absolutely everything identically. What would we talk about on here?

For many years I wondered why all states didn't have identical, uniform BGS configurations. (Like the NJ Turnpike) But now in the 21st Century I find myself missing the interesting, unique sign systems that some toll roads in the Northeast had. That includes the NY Thruway, Connecticut Tpk. and California's freeways which are still somewhat unusual.

Same is true of traffic light installations, like the differences between New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. 

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on January 26, 2020, 10:42:58 PM
My understanding is in some states agencies can still be found liable for not complying with a guidance (should) statement.  So even though the circular green may not be outright prohibited in front of a left turn lane, it might not be in the agency's best interest to keep doing it without justification (such as the curve example upthread).

Since IIRC the new MUTCD is supposed to consider automated vehicles, it would not surprise me if some of the guidance statements become standards and some of the options are removed in the interest of state to state consistency.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 26, 2020, 11:40:54 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 26, 2020, 10:42:58 PM
Since IIRC the new MUTCD is supposed to consider automated vehicles, it would not surprise me if some of the guidance statements become standards and some of the options are removed in the interest of state to state consistency.

That's what I was suggesting on the 'future MUTCD' thread: fewer "tick boxes".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 27, 2020, 11:07:31 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 26, 2020, 08:23:37 PM
Roadfro, the section you cited where it says that is actually 4D.13.09, Guidance. All of us need to be careful in quoting the Manual, as sometimes stuff that we think are standards are actually only support, or guidance, in other words recommendations, not absolute rules. I've made that mistake a few times.

Fixed the citation. I think I got distracted by something else when typing the reply. As to the rest of this...

Quote from: jakeroot on January 26, 2020, 08:51:07 PM
Yeah, it continues to surprise me how many things are actually just guidance or support. I'm glad the FHWA isn't more restrictive on the matter, otherwise a lot of states would be running around with their heads on fire trying to figure out how to change their standard plans. After all, few if any states seem to have identical standards.
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 26, 2020, 10:42:58 PM
My understanding is in some states agencies can still be found liable for not complying with a guidance (should) statement.

I seem to recall hearing at a transportation conference years ago that many practitioners regard MUTCD guidance statements almost the same as standards (as in "you really should follow this guidance unless you have a damn good reason not to"), in part due to potential liability.

Note also that, generally, the MUTCD figures are depicted to adhere to all the guidance statements. (Some practitioners also regard the figures as standards.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 27, 2020, 08:44:10 PM
Interesting roadfro, thanks. The graphics or figures in the Manual should not be regarded as standards. Someone from the FHWA once told me that only the written standards are the actual rule. The pictures are not.

Also re: the figures usually following the Manual's standards, guidance, support, etc. I have seen one notable exception: Look at Fig. 2E-12 on page 205. The BGS legend says "Northern Blvd, Greenvale". That is contrary to the Manual's own advice in Sec. 2E-10-01 "A city name and street name on the same sign should be avoided". I'm surprised they put that picture in there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RobbieL2415 on January 28, 2020, 04:41:22 PM
Has NYC added any more FYAs?  There were a couple in Manhattan last time I was there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 30, 2020, 03:46:11 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 28, 2020, 04:41:22 PM
Has NYC added any more FYAs?  There were a couple in Manhattan last time I was there.

I think most are for turns against bike lanes. From videos and images I've seen, they seem quite common now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 02, 2020, 04:30:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 30, 2020, 03:46:11 AM
Quote from: RobbieL2415 on January 28, 2020, 04:41:22 PM
Has NYC added any more FYAs?  There were a couple in Manhattan last time I was there.

I think most are for turns against bike lanes. From videos and images I've seen, they seem quite common now.

That is correct.  The FYA's primary use in NYC is to allow some type of pedestrian and/or bicycle preference at certain intersections.  Some times, you give the peds/bikes a protected phase to go straight at the same time as straight traffic goes straight, but restricting the left turns.  You generally start with red left with green bicycle and walk signals.  To provide a protected left, use the green arrow (and force peds and bikes to stop) at the end of the phase.  To provide for both at the same time, use the flahsing yellow arrow to permit left turns that yield to bikes and peds.  IMO, it is far safer to only have red, yellow, green arrows, but many bicyclists complained that their phase was too short, so they were allowed to continue during the left turn phase, where the left turn phase is flashing yellow and not green.

THere are some signals in NYC that utilize FYA in the traditional context, i.e. to mark a permissive left turn against opposing traffic on a two way street, but those are relatively rare.

Here's mention of one in Staten Island:

https://www.silive.com/news/2018/04/heres_how_to_navigate_new_flas.html

VIctory/Manor Rd.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 02, 2020, 05:02:50 PM
As far as the use of FYA in situations where there is no leading pedestian interval, and neither side has a protected green arrow -- I am not a fan.  In that situation, it would be better, IMO, to just go back to normal with traditional RYG signals.  IMO, the FYA signals do not provide any additional benefit.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on February 02, 2020, 06:51:45 PM
When retrofitting intersections that used to use 4/5 section PPLT's for left turns into FYA, is it always a bad idea to only replace only one leg with FYA and leave the 4/5 section PPLT's in the other direction (or in the case of the Burbank example, install a FYA, but leave the doghouse on the other side)? Bad idea as in preventing yellow trap in one direction, but keeping the yellow trap in the other direction (as in improper lead-lag phasing, phase skip, emergency vehicle preempt.):

Example 1 (Portland ME):
Commerial St and Beach St/Casco Bay Br. ramp, Portland ME (pre-May 2019) (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6457916,-70.2622549,3a,70y,92.48h,86.23t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1syfnsNrvPxpr4Djcu6e--YA!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo3.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DyfnsNrvPxpr4Djcu6e--YA%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D250.3429%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656)
Commerial St and Beach St/Casco Bay Br. ramp, Portland ME (post-May 2019) (https://i.ibb.co/8NGkRBj/IMG-4014.jpg)

Example 2 (Burbank CA):
Alameda Ave to CA-134 (May 2016) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1546783,-118.3389511,3a,37.7y,234.9h,94.13t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqW6RV7f7WbQt0njGNadxuQ!2e0!5s20160501T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
Alameda Ave to CA-134 (post June 2017) (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1545421,-118.3388201,3a,36.9y,268.43h,88.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sq2a4WJmZKVSL9JXzFpgITA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Example 3 (Tewksbury MA) - the left turn into the driveway is still controlled by a green ball only, no left turn signals...
MA-133 to I-495 North (2013) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.642717,-71.2295796,3a,75y,310.71h,100.04t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAh_B536R7E6NINuNYaF2WQ!2e0!5s20130901T000000!7i13312!8i6656)
MA-133 to I-495 North (2018) (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6427167,-71.2295981,3a,75y,310.71h,100.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s3D_a4-ARTs0DFeT3Z9zvAQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Notice in the Burbank example that before left turns were permitted around 2015-16, the doghouse's green ball was previously un-louvred (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1544826,-118.339387,3a,38y,66.74h,94.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sTkKB1Bl66q19fgHn-BJW3Q!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656), but when FYA's were installed, the green ball was louvred (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1545349,-118.3393838,3a,49.6y,87.74h,95.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skz9kEVhQoKtj7auAOH2tXg!2e0!5s20180201T000000!7i16384!8i8192). Possible Dallas phasing or something else?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 02, 2020, 11:33:30 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 02, 2020, 06:51:45 PM
Notice in the Burbank example that before left turns were permitted around 2015-16, the doghouse's green ball was previously un-louvred (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1544826,-118.339387,3a,38y,66.74h,94.38t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sTkKB1Bl66q19fgHn-BJW3Q!2e0!5s20110801T000000!7i13312!8i6656), but when FYA's were installed, the green ball was louvred (https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1545349,-118.3393838,3a,49.6y,87.74h,95.67t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1skz9kEVhQoKtj7auAOH2tXg!2e0!5s20180201T000000!7i16384!8i8192). Possible Dallas phasing or something else?

Hmm, that is interesting. Looks like the stop line for eastbound Alameda was moved up a bit, which also corresponds with the FYA installation. Perhaps they wanted to solidify the 5-section signal as being for the left turn, which is further back, so they louvred the signal so that only the left turn could see it, and would know to stop earlier. At the same time, eastbound traffic wouldn't accidentally stop earlier than necessary (as the old stop line would have allowed them to see the 5-section signals, but the new stop line does not).

Honestly, I'm reaching here. No real good explanation, from what I can see.

I'm more interested in knowing why the westbound FYA left turn was installed at all, since there's a free right onto the 134 just a couple blocks ahead.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Very interesting question.  As far as flashing yellow arrows are concerned I think it's strongly depends upon the signal timing.  Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption since it is very easy to create yellow trap even with using FYA.  That being said one can certainly envision where in a lead lag situation fya signal is necessary to prevent yellow trap on the leading side but not necessary on the lagging side.  So I don't believe simply replacing only one of the dog houses with fya would lead to yellow trap.

As far as the layout of the 134 westbound ramps on Alameda, if I remember correctly the original configuration did not allow the left turn on to the first set of ramps.  As this is an area of heavy employment with lots of movie studios nearby, the city probably realized that do a lot of traffic coming from the East heading to the westbound freeway and to even out some of the load they'll allow traffic to use both ramps.  One thing to keep in mind is that since the left turn it's just before the major Street, Hollywood way,   there is a lot of time available to make a permissive left turn when traffic at the upcoming light is red.  Also I believe there may have been plans to get rid of the other on-ramp but those in that have never been carried out.  it's an interesting question and hopefully some of the regulars on Pacific Southwest who are familiar with a lot of LA area history can opine further.

Nexus 5X

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman on February 06, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption

I can't envision a situation where you would want to use a FYA for either emergency vehicle or railroad crossing preemption.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on February 06, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: roadman on February 06, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption

I can't envision a situation where you would want to use a FYA for either emergency vehicle or railroad crossing preemption.

Some of the signals in New Hampshire and Maine near me cause a yellow trap on approaches that can turn permissively by wrongly terminating the green ball for all other approaches while holding a protected green for the approaching emergency vehicle. Despite this, a lot of the new intersections I've seen give an all red clearance before assigning ROW to the emergency vehicle.

There is an intersection in Concord (near the NH State Prison for Men) with FYA that is programmed correctly for a preemption, but in Downtown Concord at Main and Pleasant, despite having 3-section permissive only FYA's in 3 out of the 4 approaches, there is a risk of yellow trap as the opposing left turn goes from FYA -> SYA -> SRA while the direction of the emergency vehicle remain's green (thru) + FYA (left) when ROW is requested. Witnessed that when I saw Concord police responding to an call on Main.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on February 06, 2020, 06:08:52 PM
Emergency vehicle pre-emption has its pros and cons. Sometimes it can cause as many traffic problems as it solves. In Nassau County, NY on Long Island, the County DPW does not have any pre-empters on county roads and has supposedly refused to install them. Don't know if the reasoning is financial or something else. But NYSDOT Region-10 on Long Island does have them at signals on state roads.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on February 06, 2020, 06:20:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Very interesting question.  As far as flashing yellow arrows are concerned I think it's strongly depends upon the signal timing.  Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption since it is very easy to create yellow trap even with using FYA.

Quote from: roadman on February 06, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
I can't envision a situation where you would want to use a FYA for either emergency vehicle or railroad crossing preemption.

If it is properly set up, a FYA can be used for preemption without a regular yellow trap.  Perceived yellow trap, maybe.

For a four-leg intersection with a railroad crossing on one leg, FYA heads can be used to prohibit the left turn across the railroad without having to use either a blank out sign (which could be confusing when it conflicts with a 'left turn yield on circular green sign') or having to go to a protected-only left. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on February 06, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 06, 2020, 06:08:52 PM
Emergency vehicle pre-emption has its pros and cons. Sometimes it can cause as many traffic problems as it solves. In Nassau County, NY on Long Island, the County DPW does not have any pre-empters on county roads and has supposedly refused to install them. Don't know if the reasoning is financial or something else. But NYSDOT Region-10 on Long Island does have them at signals on state roads.
I know in my area they used to install emergency pre-empters everywhere, they generally worked really poorly. When they upgraded to FYA and implemented a new "connected signal" software, they removed the pre-emption from the programming of the lights and stopped installing it on new signals, so its no longer used anymore. From my anecdotal experience on the roads, it definetely hasn't negatively impacted emergency vehicle response. Its hard to tell if there's significant improvement... it definitely gets traffic operations back to normal a whole lot quicker after the emergency vehicle goes by with the devices disabled. They seem to always deploy 2 emergency vehicles from the fire departments whenver there is a call, but like 2 minutes apart (presumably the first people ready to leave the station go in the first vehicle, then the rest in the second vehicle, and one vehicle is more equipped for medical, the other more for rescue/fire/etc). The old pre-emption process basically made the intersection almost all red for a good 3-4 minutes as a result of that. That usually means it would take like 2 full cycles to restore normal traffic during midday traffic (roughly 10 minutes) and serious delays for rush hour commutes. Without the pre-emption traffic restores to normal probably within 2-3 minutes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 07, 2020, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on February 06, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 06, 2020, 06:08:52 PM
Emergency vehicle pre-emption has its pros and cons. Sometimes it can cause as many traffic problems as it solves. In Nassau County, NY on Long Island, the County DPW does not have any pre-empters on county roads and has supposedly refused to install them. Don't know if the reasoning is financial or something else. But NYSDOT Region-10 on Long Island does have them at signals on state roads.
I know in my area they used to install emergency pre-empters everywhere, they generally worked really poorly. When they upgraded to FYA and implemented a new "connected signal" software, they removed the pre-emption from the programming of the lights and stopped installing it on new signals, so its no longer used anymore. From my anecdotal experience on the roads, it definetely hasn't negatively impacted emergency vehicle response. Its hard to tell if there's significant improvement... it definitely gets traffic operations back to normal a whole lot quicker after the emergency vehicle goes by with the devices disabled. They seem to always deploy 2 emergency vehicles from the fire departments whenver there is a call, but like 2 minutes apart (presumably the first people ready to leave the station go in the first vehicle, then the rest in the second vehicle, and one vehicle is more equipped for medical, the other more for rescue/fire/etc). The old pre-emption process basically made the intersection almost all red for a good 3-4 minutes as a result of that. That usually means it would take like 2 full cycles to restore normal traffic during midday traffic (roughly 10 minutes) and serious delays for rush hour commutes. Without the pre-emption traffic restores to normal probably within 2-3 minutes.

IMO, emergency vehicles already have sirens to get others to stop for them.  To the extent that there are vehicles already in the intersection (like waiting for a gap to make a left), those vehicles will be the first to clear the intersection when the emergency vehicle passes and then it should revert to normal traffic pattern.  I don't think anything is gained by putting in a preemption sequence in the signals.

Or maybe I have yet to see it done in an appropriate fashion.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman on February 07, 2020, 04:42:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 07, 2020, 04:30:40 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on February 06, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 06, 2020, 06:08:52 PM
Emergency vehicle pre-emption has its pros and cons. Sometimes it can cause as many traffic problems as it solves. In Nassau County, NY on Long Island, the County DPW does not have any pre-empters on county roads and has supposedly refused to install them. Don't know if the reasoning is financial or something else. But NYSDOT Region-10 on Long Island does have them at signals on state roads.
I know in my area they used to install emergency pre-empters everywhere, they generally worked really poorly. When they upgraded to FYA and implemented a new "connected signal" software, they removed the pre-emption from the programming of the lights and stopped installing it on new signals, so its no longer used anymore. From my anecdotal experience on the roads, it definetely hasn't negatively impacted emergency vehicle response. Its hard to tell if there's significant improvement... it definitely gets traffic operations back to normal a whole lot quicker after the emergency vehicle goes by with the devices disabled. They seem to always deploy 2 emergency vehicles from the fire departments whenver there is a call, but like 2 minutes apart (presumably the first people ready to leave the station go in the first vehicle, then the rest in the second vehicle, and one vehicle is more equipped for medical, the other more for rescue/fire/etc). The old pre-emption process basically made the intersection almost all red for a good 3-4 minutes as a result of that. That usually means it would take like 2 full cycles to restore normal traffic during midday traffic (roughly 10 minutes) and serious delays for rush hour commutes. Without the pre-emption traffic restores to normal probably within 2-3 minutes.

IMO, emergency vehicles already have sirens to get others to stop for them.  To the extent that there are vehicles already in the intersection (like waiting for a gap to make a left), those vehicles will be the first to clear the intersection when the emergency vehicle passes and then it should revert to normal traffic pattern.  I don't think anything is gained by putting in a preemption sequence in the signals.

Or maybe I have yet to see it done in an appropriate fashion.



Many communities have restrictions on siren use by emergency vehicles, even when they're responding to a call.  This is to appease people who've decided that all noise is pure evil and must be totally eradicated.  Also, consider the situation where the emergency vehicle has to make a left turn, but there isn't a protected left turn bay.  Preemption insures that the opposing traffic will stop, rather than relying on the assumption that the driver will automatically recognize the emergency vehicle in time to stop.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadman on February 07, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 06, 2020, 06:20:02 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Very interesting question.  As far as flashing yellow arrows are concerned I think it's strongly depends upon the signal timing.  Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption since it is very easy to create yellow trap even with using FYA.

Quote from: roadman on February 06, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
I can't envision a situation where you would want to use a FYA for either emergency vehicle or railroad crossing preemption.

If it is properly set up, a FYA can be used for preemption without a regular yellow trap.  Perceived yellow trap, maybe.

For a four-leg intersection with a railroad crossing on one leg, FYA heads can be used to prohibit the left turn across the railroad without having to use either a blank out sign (which could be confusing when it conflicts with a 'left turn yield on circular green sign') or having to go to a protected-only left. 

IMO, a left turn across a railroad crossing should always be a protected turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 08, 2020, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: roadman on February 07, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 06, 2020, 06:20:02 PM
For a four-leg intersection with a railroad crossing on one leg, FYA heads can be used to prohibit the left turn across the railroad without having to use either a blank out sign (which could be confusing when it conflicts with a 'left turn yield on circular green sign') or having to go to a protected-only left. 

IMO, a left turn across a railroad crossing should always be a protected turn.

Why? Just use a blank-out sign; this is standard in WA (https://goo.gl/maps/xLvt2JsjfgL7QahE6) (no rule here about protected turns across railways). There's not enough trains along virtually any at-grade railway in the US to justify 24/7 protection, especially when the booms will keep cars from turning into trains for those that do arrive.

For the record, even with FYAs, you'd need to use blankout signs. Bringing up a red arrow in the middle of phase is not permitted for either left or right turns no matter what kind of turn signal it is. All movements would have to go red to not use blankout signs. Better solution, as seen in my link, is to keep through traffic moving, and activate a blankout sign.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on February 08, 2020, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 08, 2020, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: roadman on February 07, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 06, 2020, 06:20:02 PM
For a four-leg intersection with a railroad crossing on one leg, FYA heads can be used to prohibit the left turn across the railroad without having to use either a blank out sign (which could be confusing when it conflicts with a 'left turn yield on circular green sign') or having to go to a protected-only left. 

IMO, a left turn across a railroad crossing should always be a protected turn.

Why? Just use a blank-out sign; this is standard in WA (https://goo.gl/maps/xLvt2JsjfgL7QahE6) (no rule here about protected turns across railways). There's not enough trains along virtually any at-grade railway in the US to justify 24/7 protection, especially when the booms will keep cars from turning into trains for those that do arrive.

For the record, even with FYAs, you'd need to use blankout signs. Bringing up a red arrow in the middle of phase is not permitted for either left or right turns no matter what kind of turn signal it is. All movements would have to go red to not use blankout signs. Better solution, as seen in my link, is to keep through traffic moving, and activate a blankout sign.

In a lot of cases, there is a track clearance interval anyway, so an all red phase is feasible.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 08, 2020, 06:51:00 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on February 08, 2020, 08:28:58 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 08, 2020, 02:40:29 AM
Quote from: roadman on February 07, 2020, 04:43:38 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on February 06, 2020, 06:20:02 PM
For a four-leg intersection with a railroad crossing on one leg, FYA heads can be used to prohibit the left turn across the railroad without having to use either a blank out sign (which could be confusing when it conflicts with a 'left turn yield on circular green sign') or having to go to a protected-only left. 

IMO, a left turn across a railroad crossing should always be a protected turn.

Why? Just use a blank-out sign; this is standard in WA (https://goo.gl/maps/xLvt2JsjfgL7QahE6) (no rule here about protected turns across railways). There's not enough trains along virtually any at-grade railway in the US to justify 24/7 protection, especially when the booms will keep cars from turning into trains for those that do arrive.

For the record, even with FYAs, you'd need to use blankout signs. Bringing up a red arrow in the middle of phase is not permitted for either left or right turns no matter what kind of turn signal it is. All movements would have to go red to not use blankout signs. Better solution, as seen in my link, is to keep through traffic moving, and activate a blankout sign.

In a lot of cases, there is a track clearance interval anyway, so an all red phase is feasible.

I think it depends on the alignment of the intersection. If cars are allowed to stop on both sides of the tracks, I usually see that approach get a green light for about 10 seconds to clear any cars that might be stopped, before the parallel roadway gets a green for the remaining duration of the train. If vehicles wait on the far side of the tracks, the parallel road will keep its green, and a blankout "NO LEFT/RIGHT TURN" sign activates.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Chuttlely on February 15, 2020, 11:02:05 PM
FYAs have taken some areas of Texas by storm and others have none.  Austin has installed them at new intersections and is adding them slowly to other intersections.  TxDOT has 25 districts, and some have installed more than others.  For example, Austin District has a good amount whereas Amarillo has virtually none.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 03, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
In Dover NH, there's this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952544,-70.8745798,3a,32.4y,157.49h,87.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_nfCWTbSJ0iP9Ux4sDLKQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that has yellow trap (in the opposing direction) due to the lead-lag phasing, but has a left-facing FYA for the left-turn slip lane from Central to Washington Ave. If the 4-section PPLT signals were replaced with FYA's, would it be confusing to have another FYA with a diagonal upward-facing left arrow for turns from Central Ave onto Henry Law Ave, assuming the signals aren't louvred and no "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs or similar are needed?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 04, 2020, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 03, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
In Dover NH, there's this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952544,-70.8745798,3a,32.4y,157.49h,87.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_nfCWTbSJ0iP9Ux4sDLKQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that has yellow trap (in the opposing direction) due to the lead-lag phasing, but has a left-facing FYA for the left-turn slip lane from Central to Washington Ave. If the 4-section PPLT signals were replaced with FYA's, would it be confusing to have another FYA with a diagonal upward-facing left arrow for turns from Central Ave onto Henry Law Ave, assuming the signals aren't louvred and no "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs or similar are needed?

It wouldn't seem too confusing to me. The diagonal FYA would need to be positioned or angled just right to not be confused with the left FYA for the slip lane (I make the assumption that these can be operated independently). Some upstream lane use signage could help.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 04, 2020, 02:32:57 PM
Quote from: roadfro on April 04, 2020, 12:48:17 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 03, 2020, 06:56:48 PM
In Dover NH, there's this intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952544,-70.8745798,3a,32.4y,157.49h,87.86t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_nfCWTbSJ0iP9Ux4sDLKQA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) that has yellow trap (in the opposing direction) due to the lead-lag phasing, but has a left-facing FYA for the left-turn slip lane from Central to Washington Ave. If the 4-section PPLT signals were replaced with FYA's, would it be confusing to have another FYA with a diagonal upward-facing left arrow for turns from Central Ave onto Henry Law Ave, assuming the signals aren't louvred and no "LEFT TURN SIGNAL" signs or similar are needed?

It wouldn't seem too confusing to me. The diagonal FYA would need to be positioned or angled just right to not be confused with the left FYA for the slip lane (I make the assumption that these can be operated independently). Some upstream lane use signage could help.

If they were perhaps a bit more visible, something like this in Vancouver (https://goo.gl/maps/u576gwx3wEp5XjtA6) could help identify which signal is for which road.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 04, 2020, 06:42:43 PM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Very interesting question.  As far as flashing yellow arrows are concerned I think it's strongly depends upon the signal timing.  Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption since it is very easy to create yellow trap even with using FYA.  That being said one can certainly envision where in a lead lag situation fya signal is necessary to prevent yellow trap on the leading side but not necessary on the lagging side.  So I don't believe simply replacing only one of the dog houses with fya would lead to yellow trap.

As far as the layout of the 134 westbound ramps on Alameda, if I remember correctly the original configuration did not allow the left turn on to the first set of ramps.  As this is an area of heavy employment with lots of movie studios nearby, the city probably realized that do a lot of traffic coming from the East heading to the westbound freeway and to even out some of the load they'll allow traffic to use both ramps.  One thing to keep in mind is that since the left turn it's just before the major Street, Hollywood way,   there is a lot of time available to make a permissive left turn when traffic at the upcoming light is red.  Also I believe there may have been plans to get rid of the other on-ramp but those in that have never been carried out.  it's an interesting question and hopefully some of the regulars on Pacific Southwest who are familiar with a lot of LA area history can opine further.

Nexus 5X
Why? Just have the flashing yellow go on while the tracks clear, such as this instance in North Carolina: https://youtu.be/Z9GjmBBIeOk?t=159
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 04, 2020, 06:44:14 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 06, 2020, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: roadman on February 06, 2020, 10:24:53 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 03, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
Generally I am not a big fan of using fya for emergency vehicle preemption or railroad crossing preemption

I can't envision a situation where you would want to use a FYA for either emergency vehicle or railroad crossing preemption.

Some of the signals in New Hampshire and Maine near me cause a yellow trap on approaches that can turn permissively by wrongly terminating the green ball for all other approaches while holding a protected green for the approaching emergency vehicle. Despite this, a lot of the new intersections I've seen give an all red clearance before assigning ROW to the emergency vehicle.

There is an intersection in Concord (near the NH State Prison for Men) with FYA that is programmed correctly for a preemption, but in Downtown Concord at Main and Pleasant, despite having 3-section permissive only FYA's in 3 out of the 4 approaches, there is a risk of yellow trap as the opposing left turn goes from FYA -> SYA -> SRA while the direction of the emergency vehicle remain's green (thru) + FYA (left) when ROW is requested. Witnessed that when I saw Concord police responding to an call on Main.
There is an intersection near me that gives the fire trucks direction a green ball (even though it could give a left arrow as well as it's a doghouse signal) and the opposing direction gets a red, it's still yellow trap. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4179436,-71.1651269,3a,75y,108.39h,89.79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1si6LK8BfsP3P3BIruEmKMzQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
Earlier today, I was looking around the California MUTCD 2014 Edition (https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/traffic-operations/documents/ca-mutcd/camutcd2014-chap4d-rev2-a11y.pdf) and saw this line on page 856 regarding yellow trap:

Quote from: Section 4D.05.B4.b/c Application of Steady Signal IndicationsW25-1/2 sign shall not be used in California.

Does that mean that yellow trap sequences in California are either prohibited or just hidden/unsigned, and do other states that have state amendments have this rule as well? I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like this (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 09, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5_1mT7hzU) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limg-oUgjOs) (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...

Ideally, yellow trap should be avoided even with railroad preemption. I don't understand, at your linked examples, why there is a recurring issue with yellow trap. Clearly someone has set something up wrong.

I suspect the signs "shall not be used" because yellow trap (as it may say somewhere else in California's manual) "shall not be used" either. Ergo, no need for the sign. This section operates under the assumption that the sign will not be used because the situation warranting the sign would not arise in California. There clearly was no thought given to the possibility of an engineer not programming an intersection correctly. Although I think an engineer, upon discovering the yellow trap, would instead fix the intersection programming, instead of simply putting up some signs that drivers may or may not notice.

In Clark County, WA, a whole bunch (https://goo.gl/maps/kirQEuFFdSk8937SA) of "extended green" signs were installed about ten years ago, although they've all been removed. Apart from these, I can't readily recall any W25-1/2 signs in Washington State either. I suspect the sign is allowed (I'm thinking there is one somewhere in King County, but I don't recall where), but the situation is not permitted according to WSDOT's signal guidance manual (or whatever it's called); basically, lead/lag green arrows are not permitted with protected-permitted operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 10, 2020, 02:20:12 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
Earlier today, I was looking around the California MUTCD 2014 Edition (https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/traffic-operations/documents/ca-mutcd/camutcd2014-chap4d-rev2-a11y.pdf) and saw this line on page 856 regarding yellow trap:

Quote from: Section 4D.05.B4.b/c Application of Steady Signal IndicationsW25-1/2 sign shall not be used in California.

Does that mean that yellow trap sequences in California are either prohibited or just hidden/unsigned, and do other states that have state amendments have this rule as well? I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like this (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...
California seems to have a bunch of yellow trap issues. In MA, at grade crossings typically a RYGL will be installed in the opposite directions and a lead lag would be used. As seen here , but some older ones exist: like, here, and, here. Sadly a few new lights still are set up in a flawed way: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5579933,-70.8806437,3a,37.2y,134.74h,94.18t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sn4NHV9b6LnYXQgXBVmV0MA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Declan127 on April 10, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Woodhaven Blvd, NY
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 10, 2020, 09:11:08 PM
Quote from: Declan127 on April 10, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Woodhaven Blvd, NY

Could you possibly expand a little on this? Such as which intersections?

Thanks
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 10, 2020, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 10, 2020, 09:11:08 PM
Quote from: Declan127 on April 10, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Woodhaven Blvd, NY

Could you possibly expand a little on this? Such as which intersections?

Thanks

I believe Woodhaven Blvd has some right turn FYAs as opposed to left turn ones.

Here is a rare right turn 8-8-12 FYA that was recently installed

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RQrEFYJ5qPpJ3Li7 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RQrEFYJ5qPpJ3Li7)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 11, 2020, 02:56:40 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 10, 2020, 10:02:46 PM
Here is a rare right turn 8-8-12 FYA that was recently installed

https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RQrEFYJ5qPpJ3Li7 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/8RQrEFYJ5qPpJ3Li7)

Just when I thought I had seen it all.

(https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/wibd.gif)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Declan127 on April 11, 2020, 12:27:13 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 10, 2020, 09:11:08 PM
Quote from: Declan127 on April 10, 2020, 07:24:11 PM
Woodhaven Blvd, NY

Could you possibly expand a little on this? Such as which intersections?

Thanks
81st drive and i believe 103rd ave sb
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 11, 2020, 05:21:36 PM
I stand corrected. Traditional FYAs are not commom in NYC.

Woodhaven Blvd has undergone bus lane and other safety projects in the past few years, with a lot of new traffic patterns and signals implemented. Heck it didnt even have 12" signals until a few years ago.

Woodhaven and 81st Rd

https://maps.app.goo.gl/YZTcm9mGdayud3nv5 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/YZTcm9mGdayud3nv5)

Woodhaven and 103rd Ave southbound. Note the FYA looks similar to the side-by-side doghouses found on Long Island, but with only one light to the side. I believe this is done for vertical clearance.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/SZFpMsJ8RC92EbeZ7 (https://maps.app.goo.gl/SZFpMsJ8RC92EbeZ7)

The green arrow is to the left of the FYA on bottom.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Then there's this signal on the Revere Beach Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043545,-71.0298046,3a,15y,279.97h,94.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sno0WVaTYxTE-y1BfiAtmCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (MA-16) which has heads that are set up for FYA on Webster and Garfield Dr, but all of the indications are circular indications... right now it is operating in split-phase (or permissive only operation). Possible conversion to FYA once left-turn lanes are added?

Here's an example of a post-mounted FYA+thru/right signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4045047,-71.0301041,3a,28.3y,136.06h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKW_A6pvY-fv05_mUHlu4Qg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)... apparently they were adding left-turn lanes on Garfield/Webster here from the last time I posted the quote above. Any other examples of post mounted FYA installs like the one in Chelsea MA?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 11, 2020, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Then there's this signal on the Revere Beach Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043545,-71.0298046,3a,15y,279.97h,94.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sno0WVaTYxTE-y1BfiAtmCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (MA-16) which has heads that are set up for FYA on Webster and Garfield Dr, but all of the indications are circular indications... right now it is operating in split-phase (or permissive only operation). Possible conversion to FYA once left-turn lanes are added?

Here's an example of a post-mounted FYA+thru/right signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4045047,-71.0301041,3a,28.3y,136.06h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKW_A6pvY-fv05_mUHlu4Qg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)... apparently they were adding left-turn lanes on Garfield/Webster here from the last time I posted the quote above. Any other examples of post mounted FYA installs like the one in Chelsea MA?
I can name a ton since CA uses them and they use post mounting:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4342789,-71.241564,3a,15y,268.99h,93.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCnuQWeHtTKsNLob2HAbzVA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7048608,-89.5940184,3a,15y,337.83h,92.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sehSnl-u60R2KZx5bj_oCxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.0463189,-117.2925884,3a,27.3y,167.47h,92.5t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stXHdVY7dfRjJ1hmuTy_yCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9803541,-117.3771273,3a,22.1y,17.94h,91.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scC80c_xXFrKowUP4h9POKg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
https://www.google.com/maps/@33.9873896,-117.3724203,3a,15y,186.45h,92.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s21R1vu-hUBE_e1lr52z7CQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on April 11, 2020, 08:36:40 PM
^^ They are very common in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 12, 2020, 12:10:21 AM
I'm sure he means when there are only post-mounted signals? Because there are thousands of pole-mounted FYA signals across the country, in states, cities, or counties where they are required. But they are always in addition to an overhead signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 11:19:41 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Then there's this signal on the Revere Beach Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043545,-71.0298046,3a,15y,279.97h,94.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sno0WVaTYxTE-y1BfiAtmCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (MA-16) which has heads that are set up for FYA on Webster and Garfield Dr, but all of the indications are circular indications... right now it is operating in split-phase (or permissive only operation). Possible conversion to FYA once left-turn lanes are added?

Here's an example of a post-mounted FYA+thru/right signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4045047,-71.0301041,3a,28.3y,136.06h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKW_A6pvY-fv05_mUHlu4Qg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)... apparently they were adding left-turn lanes on Garfield/Webster here from the last time I posted the quote above. Any other examples of post mounted FYA installs like the one in Chelsea MA?
Ooh! I found one!
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4766359,-71.2520185,3a,75y,49.81h,84.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sby8fVxaJa6Coaggqg71I2w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
There is a video too I filmed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNvR_sIJc_E
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mdcastle on April 12, 2020, 11:51:31 AM
Three section FYA permissive only heads: these were initially allowed by MnDOT, then banned before any were actually erected (AFAIK), on the basis of consistancy and future operational flexibility. In fact even three section protected only heads are discouraged unless the intersection can never, ever, not in a million years operate in permissive mode due to some engineering reason like a site distance problem or overlapping turn lanes.

MnDOT now discourages allowing a left turn from a turn or option lane on a green ball. The 5 section head is left into the Minnesota MUTCD to cater to Minneapolis which is still installing brand new ones but only Minneapolis uses it. Dedicated lanes get a four section FYA and option lanes get a FYA doghouse.

Metro will sill allow left turns on a green ball if the road only has two lanes, but some outlaying districts are even installing doghouses in those situations. It's  work item to make sure that use isn't stretching the FHWA approval for FYA doghouses too far (the original approval was for a split phase / permissive scenario, not protected / permissive or permissive only), and to get some statewide consistency.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5859466,-95.9141035,3a,45y,26.75h,95.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_JsV3amO1SuXSmbyYYyRug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 12, 2020, 04:21:24 PM
^^^
Sounds like Minnesota is a very unique state with their FYA adoption. Those doghouses (with the FYA, which I've seen before) were never something I expected to catch on, but they look to be common now.

Honestly, I think they're a great addition to intersections where there is lots of pedestrian activity, but where there is no dedicated left turn lane. Activate the FYA when the crosswalk is on (assuming the corridor is timed, that would be anytime the green ball is lit), to encourage drivers to give extra caution when turning. Brilliant idea.

I'm still waiting for a state to adopt a six-head signal**, with three arrows and three orbs, where there is a bimodal green/yellow arrow, but where the top arrow is red. This could be used for intersections without turn lanes, but where the municipality would like to give pedestrians a head start without immediately activating the FYA. Australia sort of does this (https://goo.gl/maps/wsrXewRxkss2b74w9), but they simply extinguish the red arrow when the permissive phase activates, instead of flashing the yellow arrow. They also use this as the standard head for when there is a dedicated lane, when the US would use a dedicated FYA.

** I understand it is not formally permitted, but that doesn't mean we can't experiment with the concept, nor does it mean that cities haven't done it already (https://goo.gl/maps/qAiZqTU4dFvxmfwn9).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 06:56:50 PM
Quote from: Mdcastle on April 12, 2020, 11:51:31 AM
Three-section FYA permissive only heads: these were initially allowed by MnDOT, then banned before any were actually erected (AFAIK), on the basis of consistency and future operational flexibility. In fact, even three-section protected only heads are discouraged unless the intersection can never, ever, not in a million years operate in permissive mode due to some engineering reason like a sight distance problem or overlapping turn lanes.

MnDOT now discourages allowing a left turn from a turn or option lane on a green ball. The 5 section head is left into the Minnesota MUTCD to cater to Minneapolis which is still installing brand new ones but only Minneapolis uses it. Dedicated lanes get a four-section FYA and option lanes get an FYA doghouse.

Metro will sill allow left turns on a green ball if the road only has two lanes, but some outlying districts are even installing doghouses in those situations. It's work item to make sure that use isn't stretching the FHWA approval for FYA doghouses too far (the original approval was for a split-phase / permissive scenario, not protected / permissive or permissive only), and to get some statewide consistency.

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.5859466,-95.9141035,3a,45y,26.75h,95.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_JsV3amO1SuXSmbyYYyRug!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Wow, those FYA Doghouses are so cool! I wish we had them here!

Here are some MassDOT left turn protocols:

For a reason, I have no idea of if there is a left turn lane and a protected left isn't needed, MassDOT will use a 3 section FYA, even if the opposing direction never gets a protected left. It's still kinda cool: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.403855,-71.0359208,3a,28.1y,209.7h,90.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0hpYkBCYtWT39pZIf3gQvQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

MassDOT still uses doghouses (Non-FYA) for option lanes: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4488352,-71.1474868,3a,29.9y,63.23h,96.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sV3CVlUcYWYXzgeJFMH7f5w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

MassDOT is all the way FYA for left turns that are permissive:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3646517,-71.1759596,3a,34.3y,104.55h,98.36t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUey5cCQuOoSb8X7bKiL1og!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Local towns are installing FYAs slowly, but my town, of course, is slow to that. I could rant about my town for hours, about how we got a HAWK (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4150166,-71.1519032,3a,15.4y,304.04h,94.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFhl0NZy7euPwY4ObCvpoFA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), and then people complained, and made the town change it to a 3-section signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.415036,-71.151946,3a,31.4y,308.79h,94.3t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scaHrcqZj5LsLx6-Sq0-a6g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192), after only 4 months. And how we don't (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4147908,-71.1515296,3a,30.1y,135.71h,94.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1ss_1rlgLnqn_cI6-B5TEdaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) use FYAs, even on new lights. But that is for another thread.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 12, 2020, 08:15:24 PM
Interesting that the HAWK didn't catch on and that public pressure caused the local authorities to convert it to a standard type traffic signal. Way to go. I've always thought HAWK was a bad idea. Can't imagine what those people at FHWA were smoking when they approved that design.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 08:45:01 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 12, 2020, 08:15:24 PM
Interesting that the HAWK didn't catch on and that public pressure caused the local authorities to convert it to a standard type traffic signal. Way to go. I've always thought HAWK was a bad idea. Can't imagine what those people at FHWA were smoking when they approved that design.
I'm only mad because of where they chose to install it. They choose a 3 way intersection on the busiest road in the busiest area of town. They should've tried it at a normal 2 way ped xing.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 08:45:01 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 12, 2020, 08:15:24 PM
Interesting that the HAWK didn't catch on and that public pressure caused the local authorities to convert it to a standard type traffic signal. Way to go. I've always thought HAWK was a bad idea. Can't imagine what those people at FHWA were smoking when they approved that design.
I'm only mad because of where they chose to install it. They choose a 3 way intersection on the busiest road in the busiest area of town. They should've tried it at a normal 2 way ped xing.


iPhone

Agreed, where there is a cross street, the traffic interactions are more complicated.

I'm not a fan of HAWKs, but L.A. has great signals for mid-block pedestrian crossings* that you see all over Downtown (and in a few other pedestrian heavy areas like Fairfax Avenue).  RYG signals, but the red is a flashing red.  Basically, the green allows the driver expectation to anticipate a possibility of a yellow and red light.  But the red flashes, so if a ped crosses faster than the allotted time, a car can make a full stop and then proceed without needing to wait for the green.  An even better alternative has a brief solid red at the beginning of the pedestrian crossing time (aligned with the WALK phase for crossing peds), to make sure that cars actually come to a full stop first and wait a little before proceeding.  flashing red at the same time as FDW.

These are useful where there is no cross traffic to deal with.  These are also useful where the warrants don't allow for a full signal (because it is too close to other signals), but there is a safety need to have a full stop to allow for a ped crossing.

Here's an example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0480197,-118.2525659,3a,75y,33.78h,87.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUIPoFya023exayOs6OuvbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 09:51:55 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 12, 2020, 08:45:01 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 12, 2020, 08:15:24 PM
Interesting that the HAWK didn't catch on and that public pressure caused the local authorities to convert it to a standard type traffic signal. Way to go. I've always thought HAWK was a bad idea. Can't imagine what those people at FHWA were smoking when they approved that design.
I'm only mad because of where they chose to install it. They choose a 3 way intersection on the busiest road in the busiest area of town. They should've tried it at a normal 2 way ped xing.


iPhone

Agreed, where there is a cross street, the traffic interactions are more complicated.

I'm not a fan of HAWKs, but L.A. has great signals for mid-block pedestrian crossings* that you see all over Downtown (and in a few other pedestrian heavy areas like Fairfax Avenue).  RYG signals, but the red is a flashing red.  Basically, the green allows the driver expectation to anticipate a possibility of a yellow and red light.  But the red flashes, so if a ped crosses faster than the allotted time, a car can make a full stop and then proceed without needing to wait for the green.  An even better alternative has a brief solid red at the beginning of the pedestrian crossing time (aligned with the WALK phase for crossing peds), to make sure that cars actually come to a full stop first and wait a little before proceeding.  flashing red at the same time as FDW.

These are useful where there is no cross traffic to deal with.  These are also useful where the warrants don't allow for a full signal (because it is too close to other signals), but there is a safety need to have a full stop to allow for a ped crossing.

Here's an example:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0480197,-118.2525659,3a,75y,33.78h,87.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sUIPoFya023exayOs6OuvbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php
those seem really cool actually! I still kinda like HAWKs tho.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on April 12, 2020, 10:39:06 PM
Do most HAWK signals have a required minimum "rest" time before they can be fully activated again?  I know woth at theast the activated strobing yellow crosswalks here, as soon as someone hits the crossing button again, the timer instantly recycles back to the maximum strobe flash countdown time.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 12:43:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php

This doesn't make any sense to me. LA's current pedestrian signals are basically HAWK signals with more familiar RYG displays (and without the "no movement" phase, at least at some). How exactly is the HAWK improving on this at all?

We've all questioned engineers at one point or another, but sometimes I wonder if the engineers consider at all what they already have? How has the LADOT not recognized that their current ped crossings are nearly identical to HAWK signals? They've basically just put up some unfamiliar signal displays and proclaimed it as safer. Just moronic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2020, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: thenetwork on April 12, 2020, 10:39:06 PM
Do most HAWK signals have a required minimum "rest" time before they can be fully activated again?  I know woth at theast the activated strobing yellow crosswalks here, as soon as someone hits the crossing button again, the timer instantly recycles back to the maximum strobe flash countdown time.
They did here, in fact they would always activate at one certain time in the cycle since there were two other lights right next to HAWK.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 13, 2020, 11:02:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 12:43:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php

This doesn't make any sense to me. LA's current pedestrian signals are basically HAWK signals with more familiar RYG displays (and without the "no movement" phase, at least at some). How exactly is the HAWK improving on this at all?

We've all questioned engineers at one point or another, but sometimes I wonder if the engineers consider at all what they already have? How has the LADOT not recognized that their current ped crossings are nearly identical to HAWK signals? They've basically just put up some unfamiliar signal displays and proclaimed it as safer. Just moronic.

I made similar arguments on LADOT's twitter feed when they first introduced this new HAWK signal.  HAWK are not needed in L.A. for any mid-block crossing.  Ideally, L.A.'s model signal should be used in place of HAWKs in other cities and states that they are put in place.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 04:01:19 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 13, 2020, 11:02:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 12:43:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php

This doesn't make any sense to me. LA's current pedestrian signals are basically HAWK signals with more familiar RYG displays (and without the "no movement" phase, at least at some). How exactly is the HAWK improving on this at all?

We've all questioned engineers at one point or another, but sometimes I wonder if the engineers consider at all what they already have? How has the LADOT not recognized that their current ped crossings are nearly identical to HAWK signals? They've basically just put up some unfamiliar signal displays and proclaimed it as safer. Just moronic.

I made similar arguments on LADOT's twitter feed when they first introduced this new HAWK signal.  HAWK are not needed in L.A. for any mid-block crossing.  Ideally, L.A.'s model signal should be used in place of HAWKs in other cities and states that they are put in place.

Yeah, that's a very good point. Have they not studied their current signals at all**? They've been on to something good for decades. It's a familiar set of signals and I'm sure the obedience rate is much higher than HAWKs.

** My only guess (and it's a massive stretch...I hope) is that they've never studied their current crossing signals. To avoid legal suits, they're just adopting what is now the nationwide "standard" for part-time protected crossings.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 13, 2020, 04:20:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 04:01:19 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 13, 2020, 11:02:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 12:43:37 AM
Quote from: mrsman on April 12, 2020, 09:34:50 PM
*Unfortunately, L.A. has recently installed some HAWKs.  I believe it is a HUGE step backward:

https://laist.com/2019/09/25/hawk_pedestrian_crossing_beacon.php

This doesn't make any sense to me. LA's current pedestrian signals are basically HAWK signals with more familiar RYG displays (and without the "no movement" phase, at least at some). How exactly is the HAWK improving on this at all?

We've all questioned engineers at one point or another, but sometimes I wonder if the engineers consider at all what they already have? How has the LADOT not recognized that their current ped crossings are nearly identical to HAWK signals? They've basically just put up some unfamiliar signal displays and proclaimed it as safer. Just moronic.

I made similar arguments on LADOT's twitter feed when they first introduced this new HAWK signal.  HAWK are not needed in L.A. for any mid-block crossing.  Ideally, L.A.'s model signal should be used in place of HAWKs in other cities and states that they are put in place.

Yeah, that's a very good point. Have they not studied their current signals at all**? They've been on to something good for decades. It's a familiar set of signals and I'm sure the obedience rate is much higher than HAWKs.

** My only guess (and it's a massive stretch...I hope) is that they've never studied their current crossing signals. To avoid legal suits, they're just adopting what is now the nationwide "standard" for part-time protected crossings.

I believe that is their line of thinking.

I was able to find my twitter comments:

Quote

ME:  The hawk is a step backwards for Los Angeles.  they should really implement mid-block crossing signal like exists on Fairfax near Beverly.

LADOT Official:  Happy you are a fan of our mid-block crossings too! The characteristics on 6th street were best for this HAWK pilot though.


So their answer doesn't really address the issue, but it is likely that any new installation of a mid-block crossing will be a HAWK, since it has federal approval.  Let's hope they don't replace all the existing mid-block signals with HAWKs as it would be a terrible move.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2020, 07:27:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2020, 05:59:18 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 25, 2019, 10:45:56 PM
Then there's this signal on the Revere Beach Parkway (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043545,-71.0298046,3a,15y,279.97h,94.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sno0WVaTYxTE-y1BfiAtmCQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) (MA-16) which has heads that are set up for FYA on Webster and Garfield Dr, but all of the indications are circular indications... right now it is operating in split-phase (or permissive only operation). Possible conversion to FYA once left-turn lanes are added?

Here's an example of a post-mounted FYA+thru/right signals (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4045047,-71.0301041,3a,28.3y,136.06h,91.73t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKW_A6pvY-fv05_mUHlu4Qg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)... apparently they were adding left-turn lanes on Garfield/Webster here from the last time I posted the quote above. Any other examples of post mounted FYA installs like the one in Chelsea MA?
and here in revere: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4251819,-71.011148,3a,28.8y,232.29h,89.17t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNKO0bi_QTHT8CO7Xw4cqAg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, I think there is another factor you're overlooking as to why Los Angeles is using HAWKs. The cost factor. Wasn't the original idea for the HAWK signal concept supposed to be cost savings as compared to the cost of installing conventional signals? When in doubt follow the money. Cost is almost always the issue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, I think there is another factor you're overlooking as to why Los Angeles is using HAWKs. The cost factor. Wasn't the original idea for the HAWK signal concept supposed to be cost savings as compared to the cost of installing conventional signals? When in doubt follow the money. Cost is almost always the issue.

I've never seen cost touted as a reason to install a HAWK. Usually if money is an issue, you go for RRFBs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 10:14:53 PM
RRFB's?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2020, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 10:14:53 PM
RRFB's?
Rectangular Rapid Flashing Beacons  :ded:. I despise these signals, here's an example: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4183696,-71.1574578,3a,32.4y,33.21h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smkmDu6kNqdDRCed_76_YEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:49:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, I think there is another factor you're overlooking as to why Los Angeles is using HAWKs. The cost factor. Wasn't the original idea for the HAWK signal concept supposed to be cost savings as compared to the cost of installing conventional signals? When in doubt follow the money. Cost is almost always the issue.

I've never seen cost touted as a reason to install a HAWK. Usually if money is an issue, you go for RRFBs.
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2020, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 10:14:53 PM
RRFB's?
Rectangular Rapid Flashing Beacons  :ded:. I despise these signals, here's an example: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4183696,-71.1574578,3a,32.4y,33.21h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smkmDu6kNqdDRCed_76_YEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah, "rectangular rapid flashing beacons". Sorry!

I definitely don't mind RRFBs, although some people seem to mindlessly activate them even there are no cars coming. There are probably 200 RRFBs in Washington State for every HAWK.

More than likely, these RRFBs are installed because they are cheaper than the next alternative (full signal or HAWK), but not much more expensive than just signs and markings, but they do provide a marked improvement in driver compliance and they really aren't confusing like the HAWK.

Still trying to wrap my head around how a HAWK could be more expensive than a regular RYG signal. Same number of signal heads, same number of lenses. Only real difference is the layout of the lenses (so long as we aren't looking at how they operate). The only real cost advantage to a HAWK might be cost savings from not having it on 24/7 like a regular RYG signal. But that's kind of its achilles heel, since dark signals are otherwise so unusual.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 14, 2020, 10:57:46 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:49:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:13:26 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 08:47:21 PM
Jakeroot and mrsman, I think there is another factor you're overlooking as to why Los Angeles is using HAWKs. The cost factor. Wasn't the original idea for the HAWK signal concept supposed to be cost savings as compared to the cost of installing conventional signals? When in doubt follow the money. Cost is almost always the issue.

I've never seen cost touted as a reason to install a HAWK. Usually if money is an issue, you go for RRFBs.
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 13, 2020, 10:25:30 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 13, 2020, 10:14:53 PM
RRFB's?
Rectangular Rapid Flashing Beacons  :ded:. I despise these signals, here's an example: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4183696,-71.1574578,3a,32.4y,33.21h,91.34t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smkmDu6kNqdDRCed_76_YEw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Yeah, "rectangular rapid flashing beacons". Sorry!

I definitely don't mind RRFBs, although some people seem to mindlessly activate them even there are no cars coming. There are probably 200 RRFBs in Washington State for every HAWK.

More than likely, these RRFBs are installed because they are cheaper than the next alternative (full signal or HAWK), but not much more expensive than just signs and markings, but they do provide a marked improvement in driver compliance and they really aren't confusing like the HAWK.

Still trying to wrap my head around how a HAWK could be more expensive than a regular RYG signal. Same number of signal heads, same number of lenses. Only real difference is the layout of the lenses (so long as we aren't looking at how they operate). The only real cost advantage to a HAWK might be cost savings from not having it on 24/7 like a regular RYG signal. But that's kind of its achilles heel, since dark signals are otherwise so unusual.

I think the electricity savings is the main cost savings, but as you say it is relatively minor.

The real issue is that they are put in place where a traffic signal is not otherwise warranted.  As we know how difficult it is to properly coordinate signals, putting in a new regular signal could very easily screw up the timing of the corridor.  But a HAWK signal will only come on to address a pedestrian who pushes the button.  And the flashing red feature means that if the ped is quick and gets out of the way quickly (because he walks faster that 3 ft/sec), cars aren't stuck there when the coast is clear.  So the delay would be equivalent to yielding to a pedestrian who crosses mid-block without a signal, but with the added protection of a brief red light to (ostensibly) get cars to stop.

The problem is that there is still some level of misunderstanding in the signal.

I believe the LA signal properly finesses that issue.  A regular signal as far as drivers are concerned.  A flashing red feature to clear traffic when the peds get out of the way.  To the extent that there is misunderstanding, it is fail-safe (the cars will wait on flashing red as opposed to proceeding - not a safety issue, just a congestion issue).  IMO, it is the best way to address mid-block crossings to the extent that a county is willing to pay for signal infrastructure.  (If they are not, then you deal with RRFBs or other flashing yellows that in my experience are largely ignored and not nearly as safe.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 17, 2020, 11:07:34 AM
This is for a right turn signal that I proposed for my city to improve pedestrian safety downtown in Sanford:

(https://i.ibb.co/sCPPdqH/Capture.png) (https://ibb.co/sCPPdqH)

In my proposal, I am incorporating an LPI for the right turn on Washington Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sanford,+ME+04073,+USA/@43.4389008,-70.7748691,71m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cb2b5bc0e5eefa9:0x3c1dccafcdea97d!8m2!3d43.415378!4d-70.7356619). Note that in Maine, all turns on a red arrow is prohibited. The left turn has no conflict with pedestrians, and the right turn does. In my proposal, when a pedestrian presses the button to cross Main St, the left turn would proceed normally, but the right turn would be held with a red ball during the WALK phase. It would then go to FYA during the flashing "DON'T WALK" phase. If no one presses the button, it would go straight to a green arrow.

I left it as a ball to permit right turn on red on this movement. On my proposal I have a similar thing going on northbound Main St, but I am using a red arrow instead.

Based on the intersection and what I have said above, is a "Right Turn Signal" required in this situation if the left turn lane can proceed, but the right turn lane is held for a few seconds with a red? This is a T intersection...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 17, 2020, 05:01:51 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 17, 2020, 11:07:34 AM
This is for a right turn signal that I proposed for my city to improve pedestrian safety downtown in Sanford:

(https://i.ibb.co/sCPPdqH/Capture.png) (https://ibb.co/sCPPdqH)

In my proposal, I am incorporating an LPI for the right turn on Washington Ave (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Sanford,+ME+04073,+USA/@43.4389008,-70.7748691,71m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x4cb2b5bc0e5eefa9:0x3c1dccafcdea97d!8m2!3d43.415378!4d-70.7356619). Note that in Maine, all turns on a red arrow is prohibited. The left turn has no conflict with pedestrians, and the right turn does. In my proposal, when a pedestrian presses the button to cross Main St, the left turn would proceed normally, but the right turn would be held with a red ball during the WALK phase. It would then go to FYA during the flashing "DON'T WALK" phase. If no one presses the button, it would go straight to a green arrow.

I left it as a ball to permit right turn on red on this movement. On my proposal I have a similar thing going on northbound Main St, but I am using a red arrow instead.

Based on the intersection and what I have said above, is a "Right Turn Signal" required in this situation if the left turn lane can proceed, but the right turn lane is held for a few seconds with a red? This is a T intersection...

Really interesting idea.

I would think that if the left turns are controlled by left turn arrow signals (RA-YA-GA), then there is no need to state that the right turn is controlled by the other signal.  A red ball light basically stops straight and left traffic (unless there is a green left arrow) and allows right turns after a complete stop (like a stop sign).

The more interesting question though is why should you allow a turn on red during the protected pedestrian phase?  Obviously, I understand that you want the ability for cars to turn on red when cross traffic has green, but the best benefit of an LPI is to prohibit turning during the LPI.

I have seen this (allowing right on red, but not during the initial part of the parallel pedestrian phase) done in three ways:

1) An electronic "no turn on red" sign that lights up only during the pedestrian phase.
2) An additional red arrow that comes on only during the pedestrian phase.
3) A solid red arrow during pedestrian phase, but a flashing red arrow during normal turn on red operation

The trick, though, is that even with safety improvements in mind, many drivers will not notice them.  I am familiar with the #1 approach as it exists at a corner near me.  (In that case it precedes a Barnes dance all pedestrian phase, not just a simple LPI -- but the concept should be equivalent.)  As drivers are so focused on turning and waiting for a gap in traffic to make their right turn, they often are unaware when the electronic sign comes up that prohibits their turn during the pedestrian phase.  While most of the time drivers are compliant, especially if they are familiar with the intersection, many times I have to wave and shout to be sure that they stop and yield during the all-ped phase.

#3 might be improved with a yellow phase between flashing red and solid red.  If the left turn from Main to Washington is lagging, then it is even easier as the right turn arrow can mimic the left turn arrow (GA then YA then a solid RA when peds cross, flashing yellow arrow when peds have a FDW).

EDITED TO ADD:

For your intersection, I would favor keeping the left turn signals as is, with putting in 4 section FYAs for the right signal.  Green arrow for protected rights, during the corresponding lefts and when no peds are present.  Solid yellow arrow to terminate a green or flashing yellow arrow.  Flashing yellow arrow during the pedestrian FDW.  Solid red arrow during the LPI.  Flashing red arrow when cross traffic has a green.

Assuming the left turn is lagging, the right turn arrow would have the following signalization pattern:

1) Flashing red arrow, while cross traffic is green or yellow
2) Green arrow, during the concurrent left turn
3) Yellow arrow, during the concurrent yellow phase on the turn (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
4) Red arrow, during the pedestrian walk phase (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
5) FYA, during the pedestrian FDW phase (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
6) Yellow arrow (terminating either a green arrow or a FYA)
7) Back to 1

Phases 3-5 are skipped if the ped doesn't push the button. 


A similar approach, similar to your original idea, was employed at Venice/Robertson in L.A.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2015/07/06/dangerous-intersection-of-venice-and-robertson-gets-a-flashing-yellow-signal/


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 17, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 17, 2020, 11:07:34 AM
Based on the intersection and what I have said above, is a "Right Turn Signal" required in this situation if the left turn lane can proceed, but the right turn lane is held for a few seconds with a red? This is a T intersection...

I would lean towards yes.  Per MUTCD 4D.24 Paragraph 03:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCDA. It shall be capable of displaying one of the following sets of signal indications:

1. Steady right-turn RED ARROW, steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW, flashing right-turn YELLOW ARROW, and right-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the four indications shall be displayed at any given time.

2. Steady CIRCULAR RED, steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW, flashing right-turn YELLOW ARROW, and right-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the four indications shall be displayed at any given time. If the CIRCULAR RED signal indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a CIRCULAR RED signal indication, a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign (see Figure 2B-27) shall be used unless the CIRCULAR RED signal indication in the separate right-turn signal face is shielded, hooded, louvered, positioned, or designed such that it is not readily visible to drivers in the through lane(s).

The second note (with two asterisks) for MUTCD Figure 4D-19 has similar language but does not mention through lanes:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Figure 4D-19** These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is not visibility limited

I am hoping the next edition of the MUTCD takes another look at signals for T-intersections.  IMHO the restrictions on arrow locations for T-intersections in 4D.05 Paragraph 08 should also be reevaluated.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 17, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Seems to me that those states without red arrow restrictions have the best setups. I would lean towards flashing red arrows in those states that do not permit RTOR(arrow)

I recorded a video several years ago showing off a T-junction with flashing yellow arrows. Normally, only red and green arrows activate, but the FYA does activate when the pedestrian call button is pushed (real intersection here (https://goo.gl/maps/KDYGgz5CFuf1sn7V7)):

https://youtu.be/Yk4m574Bi-o

In this instance, there are crosswalks across both legs.

I would think that RTOR should be acceptable during the early phases of a leading pedestrian interval. We seem to be going ape-shit over, what, a few seconds? WA is a huge user of LPIs, and I don't know any that use blankout signs nor any other right/left turn on red restrictions. Not saying we have a perfect safety record, but I don't think it's necessary to prevent movement during an LPI.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 18, 2020, 01:29:18 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 17, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 17, 2020, 11:07:34 AM
Based on the intersection and what I have said above, is a "Right Turn Signal" required in this situation if the left turn lane can proceed, but the right turn lane is held for a few seconds with a red? This is a T intersection...

I would lean towards yes.  Per MUTCD 4D.24 Paragraph 03:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCDA. It shall be capable of displaying one of the following sets of signal indications:

1. Steady right-turn RED ARROW, steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW, flashing right-turn YELLOW ARROW, and right-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the four indications shall be displayed at any given time.

2. Steady CIRCULAR RED, steady right-turn YELLOW ARROW, flashing right-turn YELLOW ARROW, and right-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the four indications shall be displayed at any given time. If the CIRCULAR RED signal indication is sometimes displayed when the signal faces for the adjacent through lane(s) are not displaying a CIRCULAR RED signal indication, a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign (see Figure 2B-27) shall be used unless the CIRCULAR RED signal indication in the separate right-turn signal face is shielded, hooded, louvered, positioned, or designed such that it is not readily visible to drivers in the through lane(s).

The second note (with two asterisks) for MUTCD Figure 4D-19 has similar language but does not mention through lanes:
Quote from: 2009 MUTCD Figure 4D-19** These faces would be used if it is intended that a right turn on red after stop be permitted; a RIGHT TURN SIGNAL (R10-10R) sign shall be used with these faces if the red indication is not visibility limited

Normally, I'd agree. However, the "visibility limited" provision in 4D.24p03 specifically addresses shielding the circular red from through lanes. In this scenario where there are no through lanes, and left turn lanes are controlled with red arrows, I could interpret that the "right turn signal" sign would not be required.

Quote from: Revive 755 on April 17, 2020, 10:42:59 PM
I am hoping the next edition of the MUTCD takes another look at signals for T-intersections.  IMHO the restrictions on arrow locations for T-intersections in 4D.05 Paragraph 08 should also be reevaluated.

I don't know... Why would a left turn arrow mounted on the right side of the roadway be needed, even at a T intersection?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 18, 2020, 01:44:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 17, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
Seems to me that those states without red arrow restrictions have the best setups. I would lean towards flashing red arrows in those states that do not permit RTOR(arrow)

I recorded a video several years ago showing off a T-junction with flashing yellow arrows. Normally, only red and green arrows activate, but the FYA does activate when the pedestrian call button is pushed (real intersection here (https://goo.gl/maps/KDYGgz5CFuf1sn7V7)):

https://youtu.be/Yk4m574Bi-o

I really like this setup. It's ped friendly, as many jurisdictions in this situation would just use circular greens (maybe a green left arrow) and only have one crosswalk across the right-turning traffic.

Quote from: jakeroot on April 17, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
I would think that RTOR should be acceptable during the early phases of a leading pedestrian interval. We seem to be going ape-shit over, what, a few seconds? WA is a huge user of LPIs, and I don't know any that use blankout signs nor any other right/left turn on red restrictions. Not saying we have a perfect safety record, but I don't think it's necessary to prevent movement during an LPI.

I was gonna disagree on this–but in thinking about it, I think I'm generally in agreement with you for most LPI applications. With a leading pedestrian interval, the main goal is to get the right turning driver to wait while the pedestrians take a head start on the crossing and provide them an extra bit of protection and visibility from drivers. If there's no pedestrians crossing on from the near side adjacent to the right turning vehicle, and the pedestrian coming from the far side still has several seconds to go before entering the near half of the cross street, there isn't a reason why the first right turn can't proceed safely.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 18, 2020, 04:12:24 PM
For the record, I had other alternate plans as I believe one of the poles may be removed on the right of my original post. The first image is the same signal heads from the original, just in different places. The second one is loosely similar to what the MUTCD prescribes for this kind of situation:
(https://i.ibb.co/yQWcVyD/Screenshot-2020-04-18-at-15-55-57.png) (https://ibb.co/yQWcVyD) (https://i.ibb.co/GPT01y8/Screenshot-2020-04-18-at-02-59-18.png) (https://ibb.co/GPT01y8)

These are what I also proposed for Main Street as well. The second image is unchanged planwise although I would propose adding a post mounted FYA to the left:

(https://i.ibb.co/bJKHWJb/Screenshot-2020-04-18-at-15-55-24.png) (https://ibb.co/bJKHWJb) (https://i.ibb.co/vJHSxvn/Screenshot-2020-04-18-at-15-55-35.png) (https://ibb.co/vJHSxvn)


Quote from: mrsman on April 17, 2020, 05:01:51 PM
The more interesting question though is why should you allow a turn on red during the protected pedestrian phase?  Obviously, I understand that you want the ability for cars to turn on red when cross traffic has green, but the best benefit of an LPI is to prohibit turning during the LPI.
Quote from: jakeroot on April 17, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
I would think that RTOR should be acceptable during the early phases of a leading pedestrian interval. We seem to be going ape-shit over, what, a few seconds? WA is a huge user of LPIs, and I don't know any that use blankout signs nor any other right/left turn on red restrictions. Not saying we have a perfect safety record, but I don't think it's necessary to prevent movement during an LPI.

The reason why I left the right turn a red ball was because the right turn, according to the 2016 plans, shows that the left turn is the "primary" movement while there are very little right-turning vehicles. As part of the Sanford Planning Partnership Initiative (PPI) (https://www.sanfordmaine.org/vertical/sites/%7B9A3D3C8D-76EE-4CC5-B86E-C19FDBF5E473%7D/uploads/20200330_Downtown_Sanford_PPI_Public_Meeting_-_Long_Narrative(1).pdf), they are considering on shortening the right turn lane on Washington due to the low volumes. Also, I believe one of the poles on the right is also being removed, so if a blackout "NO RIGHT TURN/TURN ON RED" were to be used, I am not sure where to put it. See the diagram below (horizontal is Main St, vertical Washington):

(https://i.ibb.co/WcfbnLz/Screenshot-2020-04-18-at-15-33-05.png) (https://ibb.co/WcfbnLz)

Quote from: mrsman on April 17, 2020, 05:01:51 PM
#3 might be improved with a yellow phase between flashing red and solid red.  If the left turn from Main to Washington is lagging, then it is even easier as the right turn arrow can mimic the left turn arrow (GA then YA then a solid RA when peds cross, flashing yellow arrow when peds have a FDW).

EDITED TO ADD:

For your intersection, I would favor keeping the left turn signals as is, with putting in 4 section FYAs for the right signal.  Green arrow for protected rights, during the corresponding lefts and when no peds are present.  Solid yellow arrow to terminate a green or flashing yellow arrow.  Flashing yellow arrow during the pedestrian FDW.  Solid red arrow during the LPI.  Flashing red arrow when cross traffic has a green.

Assuming the left turn is lagging, the right turn arrow would have the following signalization pattern:

1) Flashing red arrow, while cross traffic is green or yellow
2) Green arrow, during the concurrent left turn
3) Yellow arrow, during the concurrent yellow phase on the turn (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
4) Red arrow, during the pedestrian walk phase (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
5) FYA, during the pedestrian FDW phase (only if a pedestrian pushed the button)
6) Yellow arrow (terminating either a green arrow or a FYA)
7) Back to 1

Phases 3-5 are skipped if the ped doesn't push the button.


A similar approach, similar to your original idea, was employed at Venice/Robertson in L.A.

https://la.streetsblog.org/2015/07/06/dangerous-intersection-of-venice-and-robertson-gets-a-flashing-yellow-signal/

On Washington, the current intersection just has two standard RYG heads. For the record, the left turn from SB Main to EB Washington are lagging left turns and will stay when new signals are in place in 2021-22. As part of a BUILD grant, I believe many of the intersections are getting new traffic signals and equipment, which include FYA conversions at some intersections, and this one is no exception. Unfortunately, due to MaineDOT policy, some of the intersections (1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4141897,-70.747591,3a,25.6y,125.82h,87.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scZo2sovqoz4PqWR1cYGNKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), 2 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4159694,-70.7508761,3a,75y,326.08h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfGTVjxGFY-3pny3u8WuHHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)) are being converted from PPLT to 24/7 protected only, because they say any left turn that crosses 2 or more opposing through lanes must be set to protected only...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 19, 2020, 08:41:42 AM
Quote from: roadfro on April 18, 2020, 01:44:00 PM

I was gonna disagree on this–but in thinking about it, I think I'm generally in agreement with you for most LPI applications. With a leading pedestrian interval, the main goal is to get the right turning driver to wait while the pedestrians take a head start on the crossing and provide them an extra bit of protection and visibility from drivers. If there's no pedestrians crossing on from the near side adjacent to the right turning vehicle, and the pedestrian coming from the far side still has several seconds to go before entering the near half of the cross street, there isn't a reason why the first right turn can't proceed safely.

My response to this is that the whole purpose of LPI is that there are existing issues with trusting right turners against pedestrians.  When the light is green ball, pedestrians are allowed to cross and drivers are required to yield to the pedestrians.  Yet at enough intersections this is not happening safely which is why the LPI was instituted in the first place.

The "first generation" LPI occurred with a pedestrian WALK signal occurring prior to the red orb turning green.  In most cases, this was only a few seconds but there were a lot of inefficiencies.  First, it required all traffic to stop, even straight through traffic that would not interfere with the pedestrians. It also depended upon either NTOR or straight traffic blocking right turns to be totally effective.

By utilizing a special signal for the right turn movement (the FYA signal), things are a lot more controlled and safer, but it must be implemented correctly.  By implementing a flashing red arrow during the cross traffic phase, but a solid red arrow during the beginning of the pedestrian crossing phase would hopefully address the issues that the LPI was actually designed to address.  The added FYA during the FDW would also highlight the need to yield.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 19, 2020, 08:53:23 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 18, 2020, 04:12:24 PM


On Washington, the current intersection just has two standard RYG heads. For the record, the left turn from SB Main to EB Washington are lagging left turns and will stay when new signals are in place in 2021-22. As part of a BUILD grant, I believe many of the intersections are getting new traffic signals and equipment, which include FYA conversions at some intersections, and this one is no exception. Unfortunately, due to MaineDOT policy, some of the intersections (1 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4141897,-70.747591,3a,25.6y,125.82h,87.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1scZo2sovqoz4PqWR1cYGNKQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656), 2 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4159694,-70.7508761,3a,75y,326.08h,83.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sfGTVjxGFY-3pny3u8WuHHg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)) are being converted from PPLT to 24/7 protected only, because they say any left turn that crosses 2 or more opposing through lanes must be set to protected only...

Sounds like they are following a Caltrans policy.  A big mistake in my opinion as many lefts over two or even three lanes are perfectly safe as permissive, with the proper sight lines.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 19, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
I agree that two lanes can be protected/permissive, but three or more lanes to be crossed gets a little dicey and should be protected only.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 19, 2020, 10:05:38 PM
One thing about LPIs I would do there, for the pedestrian phase either do:
W|RR
3 sec
W|FYR
4 sec
FDW|FYR
wait(clearance timing-3.5)
FDW|YR
3.5 sec
DW| RR

Or you could end the phase with a protected right arrow.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 19, 2020, 10:36:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:49:17 PM
Still trying to wrap my head around how a HAWK could be more expensive than a regular RYG signal. Same number of signal heads, same number of lenses. Only real difference is the layout of the lenses (so long as we aren't looking at how they operate). The only real cost advantage to a HAWK might be cost savings from not having it on 24/7 like a regular RYG signal. But that's kind of its achilles heel, since dark signals are otherwise so unusual.

Economies of scale. McCain or whoever probably churns out thousands of identical 3-section signal housings every month. They would make considerably fewer HAWK housings. So the overhead gets split between fewer units than it would be on RYG signal housings.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 19, 2020, 10:56:14 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 19, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
I agree that two lanes can be protected/permissive, but three or more lanes to be crossed gets a little dicey and should be protected only.

Depends on sight distance, available gaps in traffic, and other factors IMHO (one of which is how far back from the intersection the third lane extends). 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 19, 2020, 11:34:33 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on April 19, 2020, 10:56:14 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 19, 2020, 08:41:40 PM
I agree that two lanes can be protected/permissive, but three or more lanes to be crossed gets a little dicey and should be protected only.

Depends on sight distance, available gaps in traffic, and other factors IMHO (one of which is how far back from the intersection the third lane extends).

Right.  More lanes can be a factor in requiring a protected turn, but it should not be determinative on that basis alone.  What is astounding is that Maine seems to want to retrofit old working intersections with protected lefts, even (apparently) without any specific incidents at the intersection to warrant being so restrictive.  (I can see imposing red turn arrows at new installations, even though I don't agree, but why mess up existing signalized intersections that are shown by accident data to be safe enough as is?)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 20, 2020, 12:20:58 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 19, 2020, 10:36:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 13, 2020, 10:49:17 PM
Still trying to wrap my head around how a HAWK could be more expensive than a regular RYG signal. Same number of signal heads, same number of lenses. Only real difference is the layout of the lenses (so long as we aren't looking at how they operate). The only real cost advantage to a HAWK might be cost savings from not having it on 24/7 like a regular RYG signal. But that's kind of its achilles heel, since dark signals are otherwise so unusual.

Economies of scale. McCain or whoever probably churns out thousands of identical 3-section signal housings every month. They would make considerably fewer HAWK housings. So the overhead gets split between fewer units than it would be on RYG signal housings.

It's not even that. Traffic signals are simply a sum of the parts needed. Each signal is just numerous signal heads attached together with a threaded connector piece for wiring to go thru.  I could make a 7 head light if I wanted to; all I have to do is attach 7 signal heads with 6 connectors.

For a Hawk signal, the additional expenses are: Different connectors needed (basically, pipes) to connect the heads together. And the computer software required to operate the signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on April 20, 2020, 10:25:36 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 20, 2020, 12:20:58 AM
For a Hawk signal, the additional expenses are: Different connectors needed (basically, pipes) to connect the heads together. And the computer software required to operate the signal.

A Hawk signal would really just be an upside down doghouse with one of the rows removed.  The more unique back plate might cost more.
Backside of a doghouse signal (https://goo.gl/maps/cf2oTLL8ta8hg2sP6)
Backside of a HAWK signal (https://goo.gl/maps/qMVXDo9vzBRWs2zm8)

Then there are those states that used T-shaped signals for left turns or occasionally for through movements, which would be even closer to a HAWK signal.
Example in South Carolina (https://goo.gl/maps/cPiTNvqkF4AqgXVJ9)


I would also be curious about the controller cost, given the odd railroad intersections, DDI setups and other intersections that would require non-standard programming.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
Sorry I sent this so late, but I just read this topic from start to finish so I could see the progression.
A bit late, but I filmed a FRA, in Texas! This one was weird, for many reasons. The weirdest being the fact that the light ends its phase by going FRA, Yellow Arrow, and then Red Arrow. In the 15 minutes I stayed there, only one car actually used the FRA, some others did go on the ending yellow though. There are also 2 right turn FYAs here, and an Australian walk sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLbjscwkFe0
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on April 23, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

I don't know why the flashing yellow wasn't active in this shot, but I've definitely seen Dallas Phasing used at this intersection before, since that's the entire point of the three-section signal. I've also seen Dallas Phasing at some of PennDOT's other FYA intersections, particularly US 422 at Ramona Road just west of Myerstown (installed a few years ago) and PA 72 at Rocherty Road south of Lebanon (in the process of being upgraded with FYAs recently installed).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 12:20:44 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on April 23, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

I don't know why the flashing yellow wasn't active in this shot, but I've definitely seen Dallas Phasing used at this intersection before, since that's the entire point of the three-section signal. I've also seen Dallas Phasing at some of PennDOT's other FYA intersections, particularly US 422 at Ramona Road just west of Myerstown (installed a few years ago) and PA 72 at Rocherty Road south of Lebanon (in the process of being upgraded with FYAs recently installed).
Sounds like PennDOT is using Arlington phasing. Which is kinda like Dallas Phasing but the lead interval shows without a permissive lag. I'll be going through here this summer on a road trip and I'll make sure to see the timing.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Roadsguy on April 23, 2020, 03:26:25 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 12:20:44 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on April 23, 2020, 12:15:46 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

I don't know why the flashing yellow wasn't active in this shot, but I've definitely seen Dallas Phasing used at this intersection before, since that's the entire point of the three-section signal. I've also seen Dallas Phasing at some of PennDOT's other FYA intersections, particularly US 422 at Ramona Road just west of Myerstown (installed a few years ago) and PA 72 at Rocherty Road south of Lebanon (in the process of being upgraded with FYAs recently installed).
Sounds like PennDOT is using Arlington phasing. Which is kinda like Dallas Phasing but the lead interval shows without a permissive lag. I'll be going through here this summer on a road trip and I'll make sure to see the timing.

I may be using the term "Dallas phasing" incorrectly since I had assumed it to refer to any situation where you have a permissive left and red thru in one direction while the other direction has a protected left and green thru, which PennDOT definitely does do with FYAs. I hadn't heard the term Arlington phasing before your first post and I still don't quite have all the signal phasing terminology straight since I'm used to PennDOT's relatively simple phasing (at least anywhere I've been) with almost always leading left turns. Protected left turns at the end of a phase (lagging left turns?) are rare; I can only remember noticing them in one place in the past few years.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 23, 2020, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
Sorry I sent this so late, but I just read this topic from start to finish so I could see the progression.
A bit late, but I filmed a FRA, in Texas! This one was weird, for many reasons. The weirdest being the fact that the light ends its phase by going FRA, Yellow Arrow, and then Red Arrow. In the 15 minutes I stayed there, only one car actually used the FRA, some others did go on the ending yellow though. There are also 2 right turn FYAs here, and an Australian walk sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLbjscwkFe0

Ahhh, very nice find. Definitely answers my question then. On the yellow arrow, traffic is basically permitted to floor it through the intersection as a platoon (at least in those states that use permissive yellow laws, such as WA -- not sure about TX). This seems really odd to me, but I don't know of any other way to end that FRA phase, so...hmm.

Good catch with the pedestrian sound. Didn't know that was Australian, but it was not a sound I've heard elsewhere.

Side-note: why do some drivers sit behind the line and then floor it on yellow? Just pull forward, dickweed. Makes it way less awkward.
Title: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 23, 2020, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
Sorry I sent this so late, but I just read this topic from start to finish so I could see the progression.
A bit late, but I filmed a FRA, in Texas! This one was weird, for many reasons. The weirdest being the fact that the light ends its phase by going FRA, Yellow Arrow, and then Red Arrow. In the 15 minutes I stayed there, only one car actually used the FRA, some others did go on the ending yellow though. There are also 2 right turn FYAs here, and an Australian walk sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLbjscwkFe0

Ahhh, very nice find. Definitely answers my question then. On the yellow arrow, traffic is basically permitted to floor it through the intersection as a platoon (at least in those states that use permissive yellow laws, such as WA -- not sure about TX). This seems really odd to me, but I don't know of any other way to end that FRA phase, so...hmm.

Good catch with the pedestrian sound. Didn't know that was Australian, but it was not a sound I've heard elsewhere.

Side-note: why do some drivers sit behind the line and then floor it on yellow? Just pull forward, dickweed. Makes it way less awkward.
I observed that intersection for 15 minutes! And only 1 car actually took initiative to go on the FRA. To be fair traffic was really heavy in the oncoming direction. About how to end the FRA phase, IMO, I think that they need to end the phase with a lagging left turn every time they have one.

Btw I have more videos from this light from both other directions and the crosswalk button that I'll send when I finish. It's certainly an oddity.

Last note; We've hit 1500 posts on this topic!!!


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 23, 2020, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo? 

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete. 

Also, and a lot of people do this:  Why does a single GSV shot of an assumed mis-use of a traffic signal mean the entire agency statewide doesn't know how to utilize something at every intersection statewide?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 06:25:47 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 23, 2020, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo? 

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete. 

Also, and a lot of people do this:  Why does a single GSV shot of an assumed mis-use of a traffic signal mean the entire agency statewide doesn't know how to utilize something at every intersection statewide?
Woah woah woah! I did notice the construction going on but these signals were built here before this photo was taken(I'm quite sure), and it's not like I can do anything else. That's kinda what we do in the forum. I've never been to Myerstown, I will visit this summer, but we resolved that it was a one time error, that google maps saw.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 23, 2020, 07:06:13 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 05:35:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 23, 2020, 04:04:44 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 08, 2019, 11:06:24 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 07, 2019, 11:32:41 PM
Stop and then turn if safe - flashing red arrow

Transition from one of the above to red arrow - yellow arrow

Might this prove problematic? If the FRA means "stop then go", a yellow arrow would briefly permit non-stop movements.
Sorry I sent this so late, but I just read this topic from start to finish so I could see the progression.
A bit late, but I filmed a FRA, in Texas! This one was weird, for many reasons. The weirdest being the fact that the light ends its phase by going FRA, Yellow Arrow, and then Red Arrow. In the 15 minutes I stayed there, only one car actually used the FRA, some others did go on the ending yellow though. There are also 2 right turn FYAs here, and an Australian walk sound.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bLbjscwkFe0

Ahhh, very nice find. Definitely answers my question then. On the yellow arrow, traffic is basically permitted to floor it through the intersection as a platoon (at least in those states that use permissive yellow laws, such as WA -- not sure about TX). This seems really odd to me, but I don't know of any other way to end that FRA phase, so...hmm.

Good catch with the pedestrian sound. Didn't know that was Australian, but it was not a sound I've heard elsewhere.

Side-note: why do some drivers sit behind the line and then floor it on yellow? Just pull forward, dickweed. Makes it way less awkward.
I observed that intersection for 15 minutes! And only 1 car actually took initiative to go on the FRA. To be fair traffic was really heavy in the oncoming direction. About how to end the FRA phase, IMO, I think that they need to end the phase with a lagging left turn every time they have one.

Btw I have more videos from this light from both other directions and the crosswalk button that I'll send when I finish. It's certainly an oddity.

Last note; We've hit 1500 posts on this topic!!!


iPhone

I beleive the purpose of the yellow is to terminate the permissive phase.  It is necessary because it may not be noticeable to go from FRA to solid red arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 07:39:16 PM
Most people don't notice the FRA at all anyways.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 24, 2020, 02:33:23 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 23, 2020, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo?

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete.

If you click ahead, you can see that the FYA does activate (https://goo.gl/maps/AZdMhh4QK5jhrXAS6) after the oncoming protected left ends.

I've heard that there are some jurisdictions that do this regularly, but it doesn't make much sense.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 24, 2020, 07:57:10 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 24, 2020, 02:33:23 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on April 23, 2020, 05:49:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

Are you familiar with this intersection, or just assuming it based on a single GSV photo?

The FYA can be utilized in a number of different ways.  There's also current construction work going on at the intersection, and as such sometimes not all phases may be fully utilized until the work is complete.

If you click ahead, you can see that the FYA does activate (https://goo.gl/maps/AZdMhh4QK5jhrXAS6) after the oncoming protected left ends.

I've heard that there are some jurisdictions that do this regularly, but it doesn't make much sense.

It seems that some of the states do not fully believe in the concept of FYA.  It is absolutely critically necessary to be used for permissive left turns for the side opposite a lagging left turn to avoid yellow trap.  But it is useful in many other contexts as well.

Opposite a leading left, it would be nice to have the ability to turn left if there is a break in traffic, but it's not necessary for safety.  In fact, in many situations there is rarely a break in traffic at the beginning of the cycle anyway. 

To an extent, by not allowing the opposing left you put in place a de facto leading pedestrian interval, at least with respect to the left turn.  On one of my regular walks, I take advantage of this.  There is an intersection with a leading left southbound to eastbound (using a doghouse in that direction and no flashing yellow or red arrows at all) and the northbound to westbound left has no protected left turn at all.  If I am crossing on the westside sidewalk going northbound at the beginning of the phase, all of the northbound traffic has a red light and won't be able to turn left into me.  The southbound traffic could make a right turn into the crosswalk, but since I am headed northbound, I would be crossing into the street for a while before I have to contend with a right turner* (southbound to westbound).  But this is not true in the opposite direction since I would start my walk southbound at the same time as southbound cars have their green.

But I doubt pedestrian concerns were a factor at the pictured intersection.  It is probably just PennDot not thinking outside the box.

* Yes, there is still the possibility of interacting with an eastbound to southbound right turn on red. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 24, 2020, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

There's one similarly programmed like that in Peabody MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5258691,-70.9270964,3a,51.9y,319.85h,93.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-goBpBoZqmWVuSHaJ5qm0A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at Lowell, Main, Foster, and Central St. Also for some reason, when Central St gets a leading left turn, Main St doesn't get a green arrow. Instead, the flashing yellow right turn arrow continues to flash until the cross thru traffic gets their green.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 24, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 24, 2020, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 24, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.

If the signal were smart enough, it would be better for green right arrow during the protected concurrent left at all times except if a train is actually coming, and then it could be a red arrow or a yellow arrow.  Unless a train were present, this would be  perfectly protected right turn, except for the possibility of Central St traffic making a u-turn.  Since Central seems narrow, u-turns are probably not common, but not prohibited either.

In California, right turn green arrows are not displayed with a concurrent left green arrow, unless the u-turn on the concurrent left were prohibited.  Some other states allow it, but put warning yield signs if u-turns are common at the intersection.  I don't know if this is an issue in MA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 24, 2020, 02:55:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 24, 2020, 10:54:43 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 23, 2020, 08:42:42 AM
Great job PennDOT! You've managed to incorrectly program Flashing Yellow Arrow signals!!!!
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.3771051,-76.3124894,3a,75y,11.98h,83.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLb2gFCXgAk4p7NtOz1id5A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
If you check out this intersection in Myerstown PA, while one side has the advanced green, the opposing side with a 3 section FYA doesn't show a flashing yellow arrow with a red ball! That's the whole point of the FYA!! Maybe they were using Arlington Phasing, but I just think PennDOT doesn't understand the FYA.

There's one similarly programmed like that in Peabody MA (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5258691,-70.9270964,3a,51.9y,319.85h,93.94t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-goBpBoZqmWVuSHaJ5qm0A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) at Lowell, Main, Foster, and Central St. Also for some reason, when Central St gets a leading left turn, Main St doesn't get a green arrow. Instead, the flashing yellow right turn arrow continues to flash until the cross thru traffic gets their green.


Nooo not my home state! This is definitely a Town Issue, since I've tested and witnessed FYAs function correctly, to prevent yellow trap in our state. I know of the train track intersection there, so that may effect somethings, but still that 3 section FYA should be flashing. I would send Peabody's DOT an email.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 24, 2020, 06:28:49 PM
Quote from: mrsman on April 24, 2020, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on April 24, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
I'm wondering if the MA example is programmed like that due to possible RR preemption.

With the right turn, I think the flashing yellow instead of green signifies caution for the RR crossing

And not releasing the permissive left turn with the opposite leading protected turn also protects the RR but prevents any yellow trap if preemption causes a lagging rpotected turn.

If the signal were smart enough, it would be better for green right arrow during the protected concurrent left at all times except if a train is actually coming, and then it could be a red arrow or a yellow arrow.  Unless a train were present, this would be  perfectly protected right turn, except for the possibility of Central St traffic making a u-turn.  Since Central seems narrow, u-turns are probably not common, but not prohibited either.

In California, right turn green arrows are not displayed with a concurrent left green arrow, unless the u-turn on the concurrent left were prohibited.  Some other states allow it, but put warning yield signs if u-turns are common at the intersection.  I don't know if this is an issue in MA.
Not an issue MA thinks about. No surprise there but I've never heard of an issue with it.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 25, 2020, 07:36:46 PM
Nothing pisses me off more than a yellow trap at a FYA. Anyways I was walking by the intersection and a fire truck was coming in the direction opposite the FYA (this is a 3 way intersection + driveway signals.) I was like ooh we get to see the FYA with the red straight movement. Unfortunately, both heads went red, including the FYA (basically a yellow trap!). I wish more people would think to connect the FYA to the opposing leg! It's so simple! This is another town owned FYA, not a MassDOT one. I've decided to reach out to the coordinator, which I did before when there was a second yellow trap (At the same light!). He was kind and fixed it. Another thing that makes me worried is every time the FYA and through goes yellow (at the same time), the FYA goes red about a half a second before the through direction. I'll send videos explaining!


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 25, 2020, 08:34:33 PM
Amtrakprod, you said a firetruck was approaching. Was it on an emergency run, where it might have preempted the signal if they are so equipped? I've seen traffic signals do weird things when preempted by emergency vehicles. The normal sequence/cycle of the signals is disrupted causing them to change in non-standard ways. It can cause confusion to drivers, even those of us who are familiar with this stuff. Sometimes I think emergency vehicle preemption causes more problems than it solves.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 25, 2020, 09:22:29 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 25, 2020, 08:34:33 PM
Amtrakprod, you said a firetruck was approaching. Was it on an emergency run, where it might have preempted the signal if they are so equipped? I've seen traffic signals do weird things when preempted by emergency vehicles. The normal sequence/cycle of the signals is disrupted causing them to change in non-standard ways. It can cause confusion to drivers, even those of us who are familiar with this stuff. Sometimes I think emergency vehicle preemption causes more problems than it solves.
It was a typical fire truck preempt. The traffic light should've shown a red with FYA left even if the fire truck was coming from the other way!


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on April 25, 2020, 09:23:33 PM
Quote from: Roadsguy on April 23, 2020, 03:26:25 PM
I may be using the term "Dallas phasing" incorrectly since I had assumed it to refer to any situation where you have a permissive left and red thru in one direction while the other direction has a protected left and green thru

Because it is simply impossible to share this video too many times:

Quote from: roadfro on January 22, 2010, 12:33:16 AM



Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 26, 2020, 03:32:43 AM
^^^^
I think the problem is that "Dallas Phasing" has become synonymous with "lead/lag phasing", even if that's incorrect.

For instance, you could describe your local intersection with flashing yellow arrows and lead/lag phasing as being "Dallas Phased".

TECHNICALLY, only "yield on green" signals with visibility-limiting features can be considered "Dallas Phasing". But, in a casual setting like an online forum, I think it's understandable why Roadsguy's use of the term isn't too unusual or even that wrong, especially for those users that live in areas where Dallas Phasing was common, and where the operation of the signal is/was more apparent than the type of signal being used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 05, 2020, 03:36:56 PM
Some more Dover NH signals below:

Main St, Third St, and Broadway

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1983158,-70.8740765,3a,24.3y,317.62h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQNg4Q5Qi2FYURHGVDKTlKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1984161,-70.8745619,3a,26.8y,95.72h,90.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGK05TMKsBMVHZ9DToQFuhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

---

Washington St, and Chestnut St

Is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 05, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 05, 2020, 03:36:56 PM
Some more Dover NH signals below:

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1983158,-70.8740765,3a,24.3y,317.62h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQNg4Q5Qi2FYURHGVDKTlKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1984161,-70.8745619,3a,26.8y,95.72h,90.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGK05TMKsBMVHZ9DToQFuhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Also, is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:


A whole lot of weirdness going on at that intersection.  I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.  It is far better to have a three-phased red, yellow, green arrangement, as that is normal.

Perhaps the long "diagonal" crosswalk should be removed as well.  If this crossing weren't there, the right turn would probably be fine with a stop sign and the left turn could probably be a normal yield to opposing traffic without a signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 05, 2020, 05:49:03 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 05, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
A whole lot of weirdness going on at that intersection. I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.  It is far better to have a three-phased red, yellow, green arrangement, as that is normal.

This signal flashes a red left-turn arrow for the permissive movement. It only turns solid red during the exclusive pedestrian phase. Last time I remember, I thought that any permissive phase that is ending must have a solid yellow arrow before terminating such phase?

Personally, I'm surprised that the permissive phase continues even when Broadway gets a green signal.

Quote from: mrsman on May 05, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
Perhaps the long "diagonal" crosswalk should be removed as well.  If this crossing weren't there, the right turn would probably be fine with a stop sign and the left turn could probably be a normal yield to opposing traffic without a signal.

Actually, this entire area is all connected together:
https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1980462,-70.87395,18.58z
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Verlanka on May 06, 2020, 05:49:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on May 05, 2020, 05:23:07 PM
I'm not a fan of having only a red signal and then going dark.
Agreed, since it makes you feel that there isn't a green light at that intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 07, 2020, 12:11:40 PM
My grandmother lived in Dover, so I should be able to help.
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 05, 2020, 03:36:56 PM
Some more Dover NH signals below:

Main St, Third St, and Broadway

Could this left turn movement that is only controlled with a flashing red arrow be replaced with a 3 section FYA signal? This signal only turns steady red when a pedestrian crosses the street (exclusive pedestrian phase). Like with many Michigan flashing red ball signals, many people treat this left turn like a flashing yellow arrow. Not sure if there is a left turn trap for oncoming emergency vehicle preemption.

Left turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1983158,-70.8740765,3a,24.3y,317.62h,89.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQNg4Q5Qi2FYURHGVDKTlKA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

There is also a flashing red right arrow for the perpendicular right turn. I find it strange how there is a 3 section signal (RA,Y,GA) near the stop line, but only a flashing red arrow for the signal on the median...

Right turn movement (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1984161,-70.8745619,3a,26.8y,95.72h,90.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGK05TMKsBMVHZ9DToQFuhA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

---

Washington St, and Chestnut St

Is this newly-installed FYA wired incorrectly? I noticed that when one side gets a protected left turn, the opposing side doesn't get an FYA until the thru signal in the same direction goes green. Either the signal is using Arlington phasing, or worse, not wired to the oncoming thru green:


So the 3 section FRA is really weird to me too, I actually was going to check it out but I haven't been able to yet. I'll go to Dover soon.

Now about that being replaced with a 3 section 3 FYA, I'm sure you know this but that actually happened to another intersection in Dover (Central @ Washington @ Henry Law).
Before: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952306,-70.8744288,3a,43.2y,169.22h,89.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1PYVT9JOtVVZ3l8P0f0Xig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
After: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1952495,-70.8744527,3a,32.6y,168.74h,90.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWfmz6LUtb8WxGnpNalQN9w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Maybe they will upgrade that, but I'm not sure.

Now that new FYA. First off that intersection is so weird, it even has a Four section with a bimodalW straight arrow: https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1949061,-70.8764379,3a,19.3y,190.45h,98.89t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sje1MGzwoQRfESOl3sSmJTQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Anyways, Dover did incorrectly program this FYA, so you should let Dover's DOT know about that. The FYA should be flashing if the oncoming traffic is green. That's the main point of them.

Now, this is off-topic, but in Dover, there is a very strange grade crossing. https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1985366,-70.8767646,3a,60y,335.45h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXIYVeW_8yVeAvY9e8CjKZw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaEe8Joc1RU

Anyways Dover is installing a Roundabout here, that's gonna be weird. Has anyone seen a roundabout through a crossing?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on May 07, 2020, 12:18:00 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 07, 2020, 12:11:40 PM
Has anyone seen a roundabout through a crossing?

Not sure if this is what you're after, but there's a light rail line that runs directly through the middle of a roundabout on the University of Utah's campus in Salt Lake City:

https://goo.gl/maps/rahBotUqQph7WF2QA
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 07, 2020, 08:26:30 PM
That looks like a mess. Interested to see how it turns out here (I don't have high hopes). Prolly should've just put in a traffic light.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 21, 2020, 10:58:53 PM
The post mounted FYA on northbound Tuscan Blvd has the yellow indications wired backwards. Permissive phase flashes the upper yellow arrow, and clearance phase lights the lower yellow arrow. Salem NH in Tuscan Blvd and Central St, near the new Market Basket. (https://www.google.com/maps/place/Salem,+NH+03079,+USA/@42.7757489,-71.2281096,18.09z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e3aa58533cac19:0x8a27fe4fc103c4e3!8m2!3d42.7885553!4d-71.2008912!5m1!1e1)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 21, 2020, 11:00:30 PM
^^^^
I'm getting a sort of California vibe from that install. Curved mast arm and post-mounted supplemental signals. Nice work, NH.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2020, 11:00:30 PM
^^^^
I'm getting a sort of California vibe from that install. Curved mast arm and post-mounted supplemental signals. Nice work, NH.
Minus CT and VT, New England is really stepping up its traffic light game from the worst area to the best. It's kind of incredible!


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on May 22, 2020, 08:42:39 AM
Permissive FYAs with a leading pedestrian interval in Brooklyn. The left turn signals are red for a few seconds before flashing yellow for peds to get a head start. This inteesection is also skewed

https://maps.app.goo.gl/i39V4JP3PnpztpFm7
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 22, 2020, 03:16:15 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 12:14:24 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2020, 11:00:30 PM
^^^^
I'm getting a sort of California vibe from that install. Curved mast arm and post-mounted supplemental signals. Nice work, NH.
Minus CT and VT, New England is really stepping up its traffic light game from the worst area to the best. It's kind of incredible!

There will always be some stragglers. Lots of places in WA have stepped up their game lately, both in terms of innovation and signal placement. Which is great, as it brings us closer in line with most Western states. Our stragglers would be Oregon and Utah :-D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

Anyone know why CT and NJ don't use them?


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Stephane Dumas on May 23, 2020, 01:44:38 PM
The flashing yellow left turn hadn't arrived in the Great White North yet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

MD as well. They've opted to continue using flashing red arrows instead.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: Stephane Dumas on May 23, 2020, 01:44:38 PM
The flashing yellow left turn hadn't arrived in the Great White North yet.

Most parts of Canada don't even use red arrows yet. I wouldn't bet on flashing yellow arrows anytime soon!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US71 on May 23, 2020, 05:23:32 PM
Missouri is kind of hit n miss.They like the doghouse signals. with yellow & green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 06:11:25 PM
Quote from: US71 on May 23, 2020, 05:23:32 PM
Missouri is kind of hit n miss.They like the doghouse signals. with yellow & green arrow.

Where I'm from in Washington State, the "yield on green" protected-permissive left turn signal still reigns supreme, but there are a growing number of flashing yellow arrows and they are now the preferred choice for left turns (including those that were formerly protected-only). Question would be whether or not Missouri uses the FYA or not, or if they are still installing 5-section signals** at a higher rate relative to the FYA.

** I'm more cautious in saying "doghouse" because when I lived in downtown St Louis, left-side 5-section towers accompanied the vast majority of overhead doghouse signals (neither was more common since they were installed in pairs).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 23, 2020, 07:33:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

MD as well. They've opted to continue using flashing red arrows instead.
Well I said "(or FRA)".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 23, 2020, 07:37:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 06:11:25 PM
Quote from: US71 on May 23, 2020, 05:23:32 PM
Missouri is kind of hit n miss.They like the doghouse signals. with yellow & green arrow.

Where I'm from in Washington State, the "yield on green" protected-permissive left turn signal still reigns supreme, but there are a growing number of flashing yellow arrows and they are now the preferred choice for left turns (including those that were formerly protected-only). Question would be whether or not Missouri uses the FYA or not, or if they are still installing 5-section signals** at a higher rate relative to the FYA.

** I'm more cautious in saying "doghouse" because when I lived in downtown St Louis, left-side 5-section towers accompanied the vast majority of overhead doghouse signals (neither was more common since they were installed in pairs).

Right now FYA and Doghouse left turn signals are about even in MA, but that is changing fast. No installation in the state using 5 sections left turn faces unless it is a straight/left lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 08:50:20 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 23, 2020, 07:33:30 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

MD as well. They've opted to continue using flashing red arrows instead.
Well I said "(or FRA)".

Shit, yeah. My mind blanked over it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 24, 2020, 02:04:11 AM
For years, I've always wondered why "left turn yield on green" 5-section (or 4-section bimodal) signals are still allowed and used in the 2009 MUTCD as an option for permissive/protected approaches with a dedicated left-turn lane, especially when FYA's:

1. Prevent the yellow trap that existing "left turn yield on green" signals cause*.
2. Have more phasing flexibilities, such as TOD phasing, and allowing left turns anytime the oncoming thru green is lit.
3. Can operate independently from other movements, such as for LPI phasing.
4. Like protected-only signals, the left turn lane has their own signal, and not shared indications like existing PPLT signals are.

Second, even when states like mine (MaineDOT) approve the FYA for use in their state, I wonder why some city and state DOTs continue to install "left turn yield on green" protected/permissive signals for left turns with dedicated turning lanes. Especially in my state, the primary cause of the yellow trap is due to phase skip...

Finally, I am also curious if any and all "left turn yield on green" PPLT signal assemblies for any permissive movements with a dedicated left-turn lane will be phased out completely, and make FYA mandatory for all permissive movements with a dedicated turning lane in the next edition of the MUTCD. Furthermore, could/would FYA treatments for single or shared left/thru lane approaches be expanded to those situations (i.e. in the form of a 5-section FYA signal)? If a 5-section FYA signal is allowed, lead-lag operation with single or shared left/thru lane approaches would be possible by removing the yellow trap hazard...

*Yes, I know that single lead or lead-lead phasing is perfectly safe with existing "left turn yield on green" signals, but that only applies if the signals don't skip phases or terminate the greens for any and all kinds of preemptions. Again, those two things are pretty common in Maine even on new non-FYA installations...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on May 24, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 24, 2020, 02:04:11 AM
For years, I've always wondered why "left turn yield on green" 5-section (or 4-section bimodal) signals are still allowed and used in the 2009 MUTCD as an option for permissive/protected approaches with a dedicated left-turn lane, especially when FYA's:

1. Prevent the yellow trap that existing "left turn yield on green" signals cause*.
2. Have more phasing flexibilities, such as TOD phasing, and allowing left turns anytime the oncoming thru green is lit.
3. Can operate independently from other movements, such as for LPI phasing.
4. Like protected-only signals, the left turn lane has their own signal, and not shared indications like existing PPLT signals are.

Second, even when states like mine (MaineDOT) approve the FYA for use in their state, I wonder why some city and state DOTs continue to install "left turn yield on green" protected/permissive signals for left turns with dedicated turning lanes. Especially in my state, the primary cause of the yellow trap is due to phase skip...

Finally, I am also curious if any and all "left turn yield on green" PPLT signal assemblies for any permissive movements with a dedicated left-turn lane will be phased out completely, and make FYA mandatory for all permissive movements with a dedicated turning lane in the next edition of the MUTCD. Furthermore, could/would FYA treatments for single or shared left/thru lane approaches be expanded to those situations (i.e. in the form of a 5-section FYA signal)? If a 5-section FYA signal is allowed, lead-lag operation with single or shared left/thru lane approaches would be possible by removing the yellow trap hazard...

*Yes, I know that single lead or lead-lead phasing is perfectly safe with existing "left turn yield on green" signals, but that only applies if the signals don't skip phases or terminate the greens for any and all kinds of preemptions. Again, those two things are pretty common in Maine even on new non-FYA installations...
If there is a shared left and straight lane, then 5 section signals are to be used. That's how it works on MassDot. Otherwise it's FYAn


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 24, 2020, 02:04:11 AM
For years, I've always wondered why "left turn yield on green" 5-section (or 4-section bimodal) signals are still allowed and used in the 2009 MUTCD as an option for permissive/protected approaches with a dedicated left-turn lane, especially when FYA's:

1. Prevent the yellow trap that existing "left turn yield on green" signals cause*.
2. Have more phasing flexibilities, such as TOD phasing, and allowing left turns anytime the oncoming thru green is lit.
3. Can operate independently from other movements, such as for LPI phasing.
4. Like protected-only signals, the left turn lane has their own signal, and not shared indications like existing PPLT signals are.

Second, even when states like mine (MaineDOT) approve the FYA for use in their state, I wonder why some city and state DOTs continue to install "left turn yield on green" protected/permissive signals for left turns with dedicated turning lanes. Especially in my state, the primary cause of the yellow trap is due to phase skip...

Finally, I am also curious if any and all "left turn yield on green" PPLT signal assemblies for any permissive movements with a dedicated left-turn lane will be phased out completely, and make FYA mandatory for all permissive movements with a dedicated turning lane in the next edition of the MUTCD. Furthermore, could/would FYA treatments for single or shared left/thru lane approaches be expanded to those situations (i.e. in the form of a 5-section FYA signal)? If a 5-section FYA signal is allowed, lead-lag operation with single or shared left/thru lane approaches would be possible by removing the yellow trap hazard...

*Yes, I know that single lead or lead-lead phasing is perfectly safe with existing "left turn yield on green" signals, but that only applies if the signals don't skip phases or terminate the greens for any and all kinds of preemptions. Again, those two things are pretty common in Maine even on new non-FYA installations...

I can definitely see a trend towards more and more FYAs.  And the 5-section FYA does seem like a good solution for the shared lanes.

(I'm assuming that means:
                              Red
Yellow arrow                                  - Yellow orb
Bimodal green/flashing yellow arrow - green orb)

BUt I also recognize the costs involved and would probably see that existing signalizations can remain in place and not be forced to substitute the new FYA.  Although I agree that the 4 and 5 section FYAs allow the most flexibility and if they are installed, you can change the signalization on the fly and not have to rewire any hardware to the extent that you change the rules, like requiring left on arrow only or to now allow permissive turning at the intersection.

That being said.  Please CA replace all of your exiting RA-YA-GA signal faces with 4 section FYAs.  You don't have to operate the flashing yellow arrow yet, just be prepared to do it so that we can allow for the possibility of permissive left turns at certain times of day based on careful study of the intersections involved.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on May 24, 2020, 12:50:03 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
That being said.  Please CA replace all of your exiting RA-YA-GA signal faces with 4 section FYAs.  You don't have to operate the flashing yellow arrow yet, just be prepared to do it so that we can allow for the possibility of permissive left turns at certain times of day based on careful study of the intersections involved.

Not sure if this pertains to your request, but FHWA has Interim Approval 17 (https://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/resources/interim_approval/ia17/index.htm) out in the open for "Optional Use of Three-Section Flashing Yellow Arrow Signal Faces". Basically, the middle yellow lens of a normal protected only signal that is normally used for clearance, is also used for the permissive movement under this condition. Not sure if CA's MUTCD would allow such existing protected-only installs to use this new option.

Example from jakeroot:

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: capt.ron on May 31, 2020, 01:57:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2020, 11:00:30 PM
^^^^
I'm getting a sort of California vibe from that install. Curved mast arm and post-mounted supplemental signals. Nice work, NH.
I like the curved mast arm. I even see those in all places in Arkansas where the weigh stations are.
But to get back on topic, Arkansas has had those [flashing yellow arrows] for at least 3 years now. New signal installations have them. A lot of people don't understand them though.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 31, 2020, 03:47:33 PM
Quote from: capt.ron on May 31, 2020, 01:57:33 PM
But to get back on topic, Arkansas has had those [flashing yellow arrows] for at least 3 years now. New signal installations have them. A lot of people don't understand them though.

What's the main issue that you've witnessed?

One issue I've seen with Puget Sound-area FYAs is that, because the red arrow is on during the advanced walk phase in many cities, but only if a pedestrian activates the button*, some drivers will creep forward without realizing that the red arrow is on, because they're otherwise used to yielding and just don't see that the FYA isn't on.

* In timed areas, the FYA remains active during the walk phase. Otherwise there'd be no reason for the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bitmapped on June 04, 2020, 09:51:29 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

Anyone know why CT and NJ don't use them?


iPhone

WV doesn't have any.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on June 13, 2020, 03:14:44 PM
Quote from: mrsman on May 24, 2020, 11:17:38 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on May 24, 2020, 02:04:11 AM
For years, I've always wondered why "left turn yield on green" 5-section (or 4-section bimodal) signals are still allowed and used in the 2009 MUTCD as an option for permissive/protected approaches with a dedicated left-turn lane, especially when FYA's:

1. Prevent the yellow trap that existing "left turn yield on green" signals cause*.
2. Have more phasing flexibilities, such as TOD phasing, and allowing left turns anytime the oncoming thru green is lit.
3. Can operate independently from other movements, such as for LPI phasing.
4. Like protected-only signals, the left turn lane has their own signal, and not shared indications like existing PPLT signals are.

Second, even when states like mine (MaineDOT) approve the FYA for use in their state, I wonder why some city and state DOTs continue to install "left turn yield on green" protected/permissive signals for left turns with dedicated turning lanes. Especially in my state, the primary cause of the yellow trap is due to phase skip...

Finally, I am also curious if any and all "left turn yield on green" PPLT signal assemblies for any permissive movements with a dedicated left-turn lane will be phased out completely, and make FYA mandatory for all permissive movements with a dedicated turning lane in the next edition of the MUTCD. Furthermore, could/would FYA treatments for single or shared left/thru lane approaches be expanded to those situations (i.e. in the form of a 5-section FYA signal)? If a 5-section FYA signal is allowed, lead-lag operation with single or shared left/thru lane approaches would be possible by removing the yellow trap hazard...

*Yes, I know that single lead or lead-lead phasing is perfectly safe with existing "left turn yield on green" signals, but that only applies if the signals don't skip phases or terminate the greens for any and all kinds of preemptions. Again, those two things are pretty common in Maine even on new non-FYA installations...

I can definitely see a trend towards more and more FYAs.  And the 5-section FYA does seem like a good solution for the shared lanes.

(I'm assuming that means:
                              Red
Yellow arrow                                  - Yellow orb
Bimodal green/flashing yellow arrow - green orb)

BUt I also recognize the costs involved and would probably see that existing signalizations can remain in place and not be forced to substitute the new FYA.  Although I agree that the 4 and 5 section FYAs allow the most flexibility and if they are installed, you can change the signalization on the fly and not have to rewire any hardware to the extent that you change the rules, like requiring left on arrow only or to now allow permissive turning at the intersection.

That being said.  Please CA replace all of your exiting RA-YA-GA signal faces with 4 section FYAs.  You don't have to operate the flashing yellow arrow yet, just be prepared to do it so that we can allow for the possibility of permissive left turns at certain times of day based on careful study of the intersections involved.



PA is still mainly using the doghouse 5 section signals instead of FYAs, even when they are replacing signals. FYA is used rarely. Makes no sense.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 13, 2020, 03:26:27 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 23, 2020, 05:02:40 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on May 22, 2020, 11:40:17 PM
I'm just gonna do a quick list not sure if it's correct:
States without FYA(or FRA)
NJ
CT
and that's it!

MD as well. They've opted to continue using flashing red arrows instead.

DE opts for the flashing red arrow when appropriate also.

When i brought this question up to someone at NJDOT one time, they said it was due to driver expectation.

NJ can be very reluctant to switch to a new traffic control method. Other things, they are very much on the forefront of, or like to do in their own unique way.

Even in States using the FYA, I would say most intersections still don't use it. And yet, people make their left turns without a problem. This seems to be more about hype with a new traffic control function. The same hype existed for SPUIs, until DDIs came along. Now, the latest fad is the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 13, 2020, 05:49:19 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Well that's a significant development!

I'm gonna say this may be more of an experimental (for NJ) signal, although with the crosswalk signal in the turn lane a yield sign wouldn't be sufficient.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 08:46:37 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same.
I'm guessing there will be a small increase (depending on the drivers in your area), then an exponentially decaying rate of accidents.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 13, 2020, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same.

Get ready for a bunch more, a lot of intersections on Jericho Turnpike in both Nassau and Suffolk are getting them in the near future due to a traffic signal replacement and pedestrian safety program.

I wouldn't call the FYA overkill though, it's probably that NYSDOT (or at least R10) is trying to standardize equipment and such in new installations. Personally I think it's a good change, and Nassau/Suffolk/town transportation departments should also install them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 10:40:23 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 13, 2020, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same.

Get ready for a bunch more, a lot of intersections on Jericho Turnpike in both Nassau and Suffolk are getting them in the near future due to a traffic signal replacement and pedestrian safety program.

I wouldn't call the FYA overkill though, it's probably that NYSDOT (or at least R10) is trying to standardize equipment and such in new installations. Personally I think it's a good change, and Nassau/Suffolk/town transportation departments should also install them.
I agree. It's the new phase of permissive left turn signals! So WV is the only state without them (MD does have one intersection with them but I forget where, and DE has FYA for other reasons (plus both already have fra)).


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 10:40:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 10:40:23 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 13, 2020, 10:19:14 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same.

Get ready for a bunch more, a lot of intersections on Jericho Turnpike in both Nassau and Suffolk are getting them in the near future due to a traffic signal replacement and pedestrian safety program.

I wouldn't call the FYA overkill though, it's probably that NYSDOT (or at least R10) is trying to standardize equipment and such in new installations. Personally I think it's a good change, and Nassau/Suffolk/town transportation departments should also install them.
I agree. It's the new phase of permissive left turn signals! So WV is the only state without them (MD does have one intersection with them but I forget where, and DE has FYA for other reasons (plus both already have fra)).


iPhone
Oh yeah, CT doesn't have them either.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 14, 2020, 08:43:27 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in practice.  I imagine that they will have red arrow when peds cross (which will probably coincide with cross traffic on Ethel and/or the left turning traffic from Stelton to Ethel has green arrow),  green arrow coinciding with the time when Ethel allows left onto Stelton, and FYA the rest of the time, which is the majority of the signal cycle.  I see that this picture was taken during several phases of development of the signal, as it is weird to see a 4 section signal on the mast arm, but 5 section signals over on the left.

Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

It will be interesting to see if the number of left turning accidents decreases at all these intersections in Nassau County, N.Y. where FYA's have been installed. Or if they stay about the same.

If the original signal timing doesn't change at all, and doghouse were perfectly safe installations without a yellow trap possibility, then I agree that simply changing to FYA is a waste.

But if they are doing it with the possibility that they may allow for changing signal patterns, maybe based on dynamic models to allow for both leading and lagging left turn configurations based on actual conditions, then yes it is a worthwhile change.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

How would FYA benefit the intersection? The light will have the green arrows first, then motorists will be permitted to turn left on green. At no point here would a FYA be a better option.

And that goes with my opinion that many people only see this as a fad they want installed, without giving any thought as to how it would actually improve the intersection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

How would FYA benefit the intersection? The light will have the green arrows first, then motorists will be permitted to turn left on green. At no point here would a FYA be a better option.

And that goes with my opinion that many people only see this as a fad they want installed, without giving any thought as to how it would actually improve the intersection.

Most roads in NJ get busy during rush hour, could be a protected left then. If they want a Lead-Lag, then they could use it. Safer preemption timings. I could go on and on.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

Not exactly. The FYA was created in Michigan to replace their flashing red ball and spread nationwide to create a unified protected-permissive standard, particularly where a turn movement may be protected-only at certain times of day. It replaces Dallas phasing, yes, but that was not the original purpose.

NYSDOT policy in most regions is to use FYAs for dedicated left turn lanes on new installations. They're not retrofitting existing installations with FYAs like some other states are (Massachusetts in particular), but are including them when a signal is due for replacement. Some of the first ones were at locations adjacent to railroad crossings (https://goo.gl/maps/H3jQrw1Xd6sK1GKz6) and where phasing changes based on time of day. There is also a move to eliminate yellow traps wherever possible, which the FYA accomplishes. With right turn permissive-only FYAs, it helps to reinforce that pedestrians have the right of way. This has been used extensively in NYC where an exclusive turn lane exists.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 14, 2020, 12:50:34 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 12:26:36 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 13, 2020, 08:32:29 PM
New York DOT Region-10 on Long Island is going crazy installing FYA's at a lot of intersections in Nassau County whether they're needed or not. They're doing a lot of serious overkill. What's ironic about this is that the FHWA created the FYA primarily to deal with the issue of Dallas Phasing. In that set-up a green-ball appears over the left-turn lane at the same time that the thru lanes are red.

Not exactly. The FYA was created in Michigan to replace their flashing red ball and spread nationwide to create a unified protected-permissive standard, particularly where a turn movement may be protected-only at certain times of day. It replaces Dallas phasing, yes, but that was not the original purpose.

Not exactly either. NCHRP report 493, which conducted the initial nationwide research on PPLT displays that eventually led to the FHWA adopting the FYA in the MUTCD, indicates the first FYA displays as we now know them were originally implemented in Reno, NV. (FYAs were in installed at five locations around Reno in the 1990s, but installations were removed prior to 2001 due to changes in the city's traffic engineering staff.)

Living in Reno since 2001, I can tell you that there's no real corridor usage of lead-lag PPLT phasing that would necessitate Dallas Phasing here. So I can only assume the intent of Reno's original FYAs was to have a better PPLT display. The fact that FYAs ended up working better for Dallas Phasing situations was likely a bonus discovered after being installed/studied elsewhere.

EDIT: added underlined words to complete thought.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 01:47:27 PM
And this would be why I shouldn't trust Wikipedia...

I knew that Nevada and Michigan were the first places these were installed, guess what I read got the order wrong. But yeah, the point about Dallas phasing stands.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 02:24:19 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

How would FYA benefit the intersection? The light will have the green arrows first, then motorists will be permitted to turn left on green. At no point here would a FYA be a better option.

And that goes with my opinion that many people only see this as a fad they want installed, without giving any thought as to how it would actually improve the intersection.

Most roads in NJ get busy during rush hour, could be a protected left then. If they want a Lead-Lag, then they could use it. Safer preemption timings. I could go on and on.

Not without an engineering study you couldn't.

NJ generally will use the most restrictive left turn signal based on studies. So if they're comfortable with permissive left turns, a FYA to create protective left turns would make the FYA less popular.

NJ almost never uses lead-lag. And in a case like this, unless both directions get a lead-lag at the same time, it would actually create the yellow trap situation many say are trying to be avoided.

Safer preemption timings? Huh? Thats not needed here.

You could go on and on, but for intersections like this there's no reason to invent the wheel, and there continues to be nothing that would make it a safer intersection with a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 02:24:19 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

How would FYA benefit the intersection? The light will have the green arrows first, then motorists will be permitted to turn left on green. At no point here would a FYA be a better option.

And that goes with my opinion that many people only see this as a fad they want installed, without giving any thought as to how it would actually improve the intersection.

Most roads in NJ get busy during rush hour, could be a protected left then. If they want a Lead-Lag, then they could use it. Safer preemption timings. I could go on and on.

Not without an engineering study you couldn't.

NJ generally will use the most restrictive left turn signal based on studies. So if they're comfortable with permissive left turns, a FYA to create protective left turns would make the FYA less popular.

NJ almost never uses lead-lag. And in a case like this, unless both directions get a lead-lag at the same time, it would actually create the yellow trap situation many say are trying to be avoided.

Safer preemption timings? Huh? Thats not needed here.

You could go on and on, but for intersections like this there's no reason to invent the wheel, and there continues to be nothing that would make it a safer intersection with a FYA.

So you are telling me that this signal would not give a yellow trap if a fire truck came? I don't think so.....
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 04:51:41 PM
So you are telling me that this signal would not give a yellow trap if a fire truck came? I don't think so.....

NJ doesn't generally have emergency vehicle preemption and the intersection you linked has no preemption equipment installed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 05:05:38 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 04:54:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 04:51:41 PM
So you are telling me that this signal would not give a yellow trap if a fire truck came? I don't think so.....

NJ doesn't generally have emergency vehicle preemption and the intersection you linked has no preemption equipment installed.

They don't? They should IMO. My bad, I'm just always in support of an FYA.

I've found the worst FYA signage today:
https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1275186,-118.1471979,3a,29.5y,91.45h,102.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sEw5oONUdtTH9rK0USfQx1Q!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 14, 2020, 08:49:00 PM
Thanks to cl94 and roadfro for updating us on the FYA's history and origins in Nevada and Michigan. I had not known any of that and I had been led to believe it was only the Dallas Phasing issue that caused the FYA's creation. So I appreciate the info.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 14, 2020, 09:24:18 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 04:51:41 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 02:24:19 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 11:46:19 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 14, 2020, 09:34:54 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 13, 2020, 07:04:01 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Oh my gosh!!! Piscataway too (which is the place I know best in NJ!)! This is insane! Great job (not really they were really late to install this), but still a nice installation. Wish they put FYAs for the left turns too but still really significant.


iPhone

How would FYA benefit the intersection? The light will have the green arrows first, then motorists will be permitted to turn left on green. At no point here would a FYA be a better option.

And that goes with my opinion that many people only see this as a fad they want installed, without giving any thought as to how it would actually improve the intersection.

Most roads in NJ get busy during rush hour, could be a protected left then. If they want a Lead-Lag, then they could use it. Safer preemption timings. I could go on and on.

Not without an engineering study you couldn't.

NJ generally will use the most restrictive left turn signal based on studies. So if they're comfortable with permissive left turns, a FYA to create protective left turns would make the FYA less popular.

NJ almost never uses lead-lag. And in a case like this, unless both directions get a lead-lag at the same time, it would actually create the yellow trap situation many say are trying to be avoided.

Safer preemption timings? Huh? Thats not needed here.

You could go on and on, but for intersections like this there's no reason to invent the wheel, and there continues to be nothing that would make it a safer intersection with a FYA.

So you are telling me that this signal would not give a yellow trap if a fire truck came? I don't think so.....

FYA can be used to remove yellow trap on intersections that skip phases.

In my state, Maine, most of our "yield on green" signals usually run on lead-lead phasing. However, a lot of the signals, even newer ones, in my area can skip phases if there is no traffic on the side streets.

If the left turn lane on the main road receives a call, the thru green's max time has expired, and there is no traffic on the side street, it will give a protected left-turn arrow for that direction. This means that while one direction's thru indication is changing from yellow to red, the direction that is getting the green protected left turn arrow will remain green for the thru indication, hence, yellow trap. This is the primary cause of yellow trap in the entire state of Maine.

The only way to prevent yellow trap w/o FYA for PPLT situations like this is to implement anti-backup phasing, which will prevent the controller from terminating the green at the wrong time due to skipped phases. Does NJ phase skip on their PPLT signals, or is there anti-backup protection in place at most signals?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 14, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
I've noticed some strange FYA phasing on some of NHDOT's signals. Coming out of an all-red or side street phase, the FYA left turn signals remain a red arrow for a few seconds while thru traffic gets a green, then the FYA comes on. There is no LPI at those intersections as there are no pedestrian signals at the intersections I witnessed. How common is this phasing with FYA's?

These are the intersections I saw this phasing:

NH Route 28 at Page Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9243407,-71.4044601,3a,32.3y,341.83h,90.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_EEwtVJzIo4fMkTevIF7KA!2e0!5s20190901T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
US Route 4 at NH Route 107 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.22131,-71.2919992,3a,75y,80.87h,90.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHE2wcpxoWF3Z7LKtJftgaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

On right turn lanes where the turn has its own slip lane, is it necessary to give a green arrow for the overlap, or could it remain flashing yellow even during the perpendicular protected left turn? In South Portland ME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ssijjx4SI), the flashing yellow arrow remains on almost all the time, even during Westbrook's St protected left. The only time the red arrow would come on is if a pedestrian requested to cross said right turn lane.

I wonder if that FYA right turn signal has a red right turn arrow... does NJ allow right on red arrow? Don't see any signs prohibiting the movement (at the moment).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 10:10:34 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 14, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
I've noticed some strange FYA phasing on some of NHDOT's signals. Coming out of an all-red or side street phase, the FYA left turn signals remain a red arrow for a few seconds while thru traffic gets a green, then the FYA comes on. There is no LPI at those intersections as there are no pedestrian signals at the intersections I witnessed. How common is this phasing with FYA's?

These are the intersections I saw this phasing:

NH Route 28 at Page Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9243407,-71.4044601,3a,32.3y,341.83h,90.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_EEwtVJzIo4fMkTevIF7KA!2e0!5s20190901T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
US Route 4 at NH Route 107 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.22131,-71.2919992,3a,75y,80.87h,90.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHE2wcpxoWF3Z7LKtJftgaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)


This is actually common practice in many non-new England areas. The idea is to give through traffic a chance to get through so cars on the protected left don't just keep going through after the lead expires. This is a common practice at this location on my commute: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4795086,-71.1213034,3a,60y,11.8h,89.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sOe9FRFNYIS9HeCbDAH5KAg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

The only place in the state I can think of the red arrow before the FYA is here:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3912874,-71.1231414,3a,32.7y,327.12h,93.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCb_SpBt4IvCNQInlCFTu7A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 14, 2020, 10:46:17 PM
NY does not delay red arrow to flashing yellow arrow,  unless it is for an explicit LPI
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 15, 2020, 08:30:03 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 14, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
I've noticed some strange FYA phasing on some of NHDOT's signals. Coming out of an all-red or side street phase, the FYA left turn signals remain a red arrow for a few seconds while thru traffic gets a green, then the FYA comes on. There is no LPI at those intersections as there are no pedestrian signals at the intersections I witnessed. How common is this phasing with FYA's?

These are the intersections I saw this phasing:

NH Route 28 at Page Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9243407,-71.4044601,3a,32.3y,341.83h,90.88t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_EEwtVJzIo4fMkTevIF7KA!2e0!5s20190901T000000!7i16384!8i8192)
US Route 4 at NH Route 107 (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.22131,-71.2919992,3a,75y,80.87h,90.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sHE2wcpxoWF3Z7LKtJftgaA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)

In strictest terms the FYA setup is a replacement for a more traditional PPLT setup like 4 or 5 section signals without a red arrow.  Just as a leading left signal goes from green arrow to yellow arrow to no arrow (indicating permitted but not protected lefts), a FYA signal can go directly from GA to YA to FYA.  To the extent that they may put in a brief solid red arrow phase to separate the protected turn from the permissive turn, it is a safety measure, as Amtrakprod has said, to ensure that left turners actually stop and yield to thru traffic briefly.  It is especially beneficial where there are pedestrians as it does function as a partial LPI, at least with respect to left turns.  Not required, but I definitely see its value.  And to the extent the red arrow phase is brief, not really a big deal. 


Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today! Unfortunately, it's not on a divided state highway's left turn for which there is good sight distance like NJ 33 and Milford Road (which I used to use daily and will be going back to doing every other week starting the week after next).

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

On right turn lanes where the turn has its own slip lane, is it necessary to give a green arrow for the overlap, or could it remain flashing yellow even during the perpendicular protected left turn? In South Portland ME (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8ssijjx4SI), the flashing yellow arrow remains on almost all the time, even during Westbrook's St protected left. The only time the red arrow would come on is if a pedestrian requested to cross said right turn lane.

I wonder if that FYA right turn signal has a red right turn arrow... does NJ allow right on red arrow? Don't see any signs prohibiting the movement (at the moment).
[/quote]

This video shows some red light running, especially on the right turn.  Disappointing, especially considering how short the red arrow phase is.

There is no necessity to have a green arrow during the corresponding left turn, but IMO it is a good idea, unless there is concern about conflict due to u-turns and possibly pedestrians who may jay-walk at the crossing.  If there is nothing to yield to, shouldn't the right turning traffic get a green arrow so that they can just simply go?  I believe a green arrow phase would be great to keep things moving.  I can think of several intersections with a separated right turn that is near a signalized intersection but controlled by a yield sign.  In most of those cases, if a green arrow were present during the safe phase of the intersection, right turn backup would be significantly reduced.  In that scenario, a red arrow should be placed to stop the turning in order to protect pedestrians, the green arrow should be placed during the totally protected right turn phase where there are no conflicts, and flashing yellow arrow at other times to denote the general yield condition.

As far as the NJ signal is concerned, it appears to be 4 aspects, so I assume it is RA-YA-FYA-GA, but perhaps someone in the area could comment on its actual operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on June 15, 2020, 09:52:20 AM
Quote from: US71 on May 23, 2020, 05:23:32 PM
Missouri is kind of hit n miss.They like the doghouse signals. with yellow & green arrow.

MO's been reliably putting FYAs on new installs since 2012 or so. Existing retrofits are less common but still exist.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 14, 2020, 05:05:38 PM
Quote from: cl94 on June 14, 2020, 04:54:28 PM
NJ doesn't generally have emergency vehicle preemption and the intersection you linked has no preemption equipment installed.
They don't? They should IMO. My bad, I'm just always in support of an FYA.

NJDOT's policy is that they won't pay for the signal pre-emption for emergency vehicles. If a certain town/county wants it, they can pay for it and NJDOT will add it to the signals.  There's a few signals that have it installed, but not many.

When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary. 

Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 14, 2020, 09:59:56 PM
I wonder if that FYA right turn signal has a red right turn arrow... does NJ allow right on red arrow? Don't see any signs prohibiting the movement (at the moment).

Yes.  NJ State Law only defines a red light, yellow light, green light, and green arrow. Red arrows are never defined.  Thus, in most cases where an arrow is used, it will say "No Turn On Red".  However, a red arrow doesn't prohibit turns on red, so absent the NTOR sign, it's legal. 

Most websites get this wrong.  I don't understand why, because there's nothing I can find that actually states it's illegal to turn on red. 

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least restrictive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

edit: word choice
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 16, 2020, 07:59:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least permissive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

That problem also exists at doghouse signals as well.

Its this phenomena that makes me prefer lagging lefts over leading lefts, provided that the yellow trap problem is addressed.  Its the "natural" phase for turning left, particularly in saturated intersections.  Another plus is that with the right sensors, the left turn phase can be totally skipped altogether if the left turn lane clears during the green orb phase.

The downside of course is yellow trap and that generally the lagging lefts have to be simultaneous.  This is why lagging lefts are more common where the opposing left is prohibited.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 17, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Interesting right turb FYA in NYC. The FY arrow is on the bottom and has both a LPI and lagging protected right. Sequence (I believe) is

Green ball/red arrow (LPI)
Green ball/FYA
Red ball/green arrow (lagging protected right)

This is a wide intersection with a lot of pedestrian traffic, so the FYA helps here. Strangely enough the left turns on the cross street were not converted to FYA

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qZmda1UTjMExgAmF6
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 12:17:09 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 17, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Interesting right turb FYA in NYC. The FY arrow is on the bottom and has both a LPI and lagging protected right. Sequence (I believe) is

Green ball/red arrow (LPI)
Green ball/FYA
Red ball/green arrow (lagging protected right)

This is a wide intersection with a lot of pedestrian traffic, so the FYA helps here. Strangely enough the left turns on the cross street were not converted to FYA

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qZmda1UTjMExgAmF6

There is no reason to convert the left turn to FYA.  Only the green right arrow phase (and the solid yellow arrow phase that follows) will mimic the green arrow phase of the left turn signal.  If the permitted phase of the left turn were FYA, the right turn would still be a red arrow, as there is no turn on red in NYC.

Another issue is that the FYA sign being used to yield to pedestrians is so common that in NYC I'm not sure if it's understood that a FYA is used to yield to oncoming traffic.  While there are a few examples like that in Staten Island (I believe), using the FYA in its normal context is rare for NYC and non-existent in the pedestrian heavy areas.

NYC has been doing some wonderful things lately in the name of pedestrian and bicycle safety.  I like what they did here, providing protected phases for the right turns as well as for the pedestrians.  This should improve safety here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 17, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
All signals should start with the least permissive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

Is that a mis-type?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 17, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
All signals should start with the least permissive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

Is that a mis-type?

I'm assuming Jake meant "least restrictive phasing possible"
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 17, 2020, 01:38:14 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 17, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
All signals should start with the least permissive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

Is that a mis-type?

I'm assuming Jake meant "least restrictive phasing possible"

Both phrases will work.

Basically, I believe he's saying is start with a typical RYG light.  Then, does it require permissive/protected phases?  Does it require a FYA?  Does it require protected only phasing?  Does it require off-set phasing? 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 17, 2020, 02:01:36 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 17, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 17, 2020, 12:55:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
All signals should start with the least permissive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

Is that a mis-type?

I'm assuming Jake meant "least restrictive phasing possible"

That's exactly what I meant, yeah. I updated my post to reflect that.

Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 17, 2020, 01:38:14 PM
Basically, I believe he's saying is start with a typical RYG light.  Then, does it require permissive/protected phases?  Does it require a FYA?  Does it require protected only phasing?  Does it require off-set phasing? 

That's what I'm getting at. It really seems to me that a typical intersection, with single turn lanes (if any), should just start off with the most "permissive" (aka least restrictive) phasing possible, with modifications made beyond that as necessary. Even double left turns (https://goo.gl/maps/jq7kvBfhMsa1jwwd8) may not need them immediately.

For the longest time, my understanding was that this was WSDOT's policy (effectively, all intersections should be operated starting with the least restrictive phasing, and then modified accordingly), but it's extremely rare to actually see them do this. New intersections rarely forgo a separate left turn signal (be it an FYA or protected-only turn).

One of the only examples of them following this policy (sort of) was the rebuild of WA-161 (Enchanted Pkwy) north of Edgewood, in the mid-2000s, when the three main signals (19th Way S, 28th Ave S, and Military Road) were installed without any separate left turn control (https://goo.gl/maps/7cW4KcPMU9cY6FDeA). All signals are operated (and continue to be operated) as permissive-only "LEFT TURN MUST YIELD" type intersections, despite WA-161 being a divided expressway-type road with a 45 mph speed limit. On paper, policy might dictate that the higher speed limit result in protected-only turns, but they were not installed. As a result, at least from my personal experience, this stretch of WA-161 is by far the best-flowing stretch. The lights have only two phases (apart of 28th Ave S because the offset requiring split-phasing), and through traffic does not need to wait for left turns to go.

Now yes, it helps that the left turns in this example are not busy anyways, but how many left turns are truly so busy that gaps in traffic aren't enough to clear them? After all, a gap in through traffic is no different than a protected left turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 17, 2020, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 16, 2020, 07:59:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least permissive restrictive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

That problem also exists at doghouse signals as well.

Its this phenomena that makes me prefer lagging lefts over leading lefts, provided that the yellow trap problem is addressed.  Its the "natural" phase for turning left, particularly in saturated intersections.  Another plus is that with the right sensors, the left turn phase can be totally skipped altogether if the left turn lane clears during the green orb phase.

The downside of course is yellow trap and that generally the lagging lefts have to be simultaneous.  This is why lagging lefts are more common where the opposing left is prohibited.

Lagging lefts do have a tendency to result in more drivers pulling forward, yes. I think this is because they think that the green arrow was skipped, so they pull forward to avoid missing the light entirely. That said, even at the left turns that I go through regularly (https://goo.gl/maps/KLxWswzZMSSRT6Ma9) where lagging left turns are normal, drivers do not always pull forward. Eventually, there is usually a gap, but then the green arrow activates, so the "pulling forward" bit only helps those of us trying to complete the left turn quicker. At that point, especially at those intersections where lagging green arrows are employed habitually (side-streets approaching a major road in this area), drivers will sometimes wait behind the line (unless there is a gap) because they become accustomed to the lagging green arrow ("I don't need to worry about pulling forward because there is a green arrow at the end"). Most drivers to creep forward, yes, but there are still some that don't. This is compared to those intersections where there is no green arrow at all, where pulling-forward compliance is near 100%.

This talk of lagging left turns and creeping forward does remind me why I tend to prefer advanced left turns: the capacity seems to be a bit higher at intersections where a left turn will absolutely be needed: you get all of the cars at the beginning of the phase, and then at least one or two (sometimes more) at the end during the clearance phase. It's a relatively minor increase in capacity, but certainly noticeable, especially in everyday driving. In comparison, there is no "clearance" phase to accept a couple more cars at lagging lefts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 17, 2020, 02:36:55 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 12:17:09 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 17, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Interesting right turb FYA in NYC. The FY arrow is on the bottom and has both a LPI and lagging protected right. Sequence (I believe) is

Green ball/red arrow (LPI)
Green ball/FYA
Red ball/green arrow (lagging protected right)

This is a wide intersection with a lot of pedestrian traffic, so the FYA helps here. Strangely enough the left turns on the cross street were not converted to FYA

https://maps.app.goo.gl/qZmda1UTjMExgAmF6

There is no reason to convert the left turn to FYA.  Only the green right arrow phase (and the solid yellow arrow phase that follows) will mimic the green arrow phase of the left turn signal.  If the permitted phase of the left turn were FYA, the right turn would still be a red arrow, as there is no turn on red in NYC.

Another issue is that the FYA sign being used to yield to pedestrians is so common that in NYC I'm not sure if it's understood that a FYA is used to yield to oncoming traffic.  While there are a few examples like that in Staten Island (I believe), using the FYA in its normal context is rare for NYC and non-existent in the pedestrian heavy areas.

NYC has been doing some wonderful things lately in the name of pedestrian and bicycle safety.  I like what they did here, providing protected phases for the right turns as well as for the pedestrians.  This should improve safety here.

RTOR notwithstanding, i know that the right turn signal would still be red since the Northern thru traffic would have a green.

The comment about converting the left turn signal on Northern was moreso about the fact that there were some signal upgrades on Woodhaven Blvd, 108th st/LIE, and other places in Queens and NYC that have seen normal FYA installation.

I think NYC drivers do in fact understand that FYA equals yield, both to cars and peds, and installation should continue wherever it would be beneficial.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 04:03:00 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 17, 2020, 02:16:55 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 16, 2020, 07:59:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least permissive restrictive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

That problem also exists at doghouse signals as well.

Its this phenomena that makes me prefer lagging lefts over leading lefts, provided that the yellow trap problem is addressed.  Its the "natural" phase for turning left, particularly in saturated intersections.  Another plus is that with the right sensors, the left turn phase can be totally skipped altogether if the left turn lane clears during the green orb phase.

The downside of course is yellow trap and that generally the lagging lefts have to be simultaneous.  This is why lagging lefts are more common where the opposing left is prohibited.

Lagging lefts do have a tendency to result in more drivers pulling forward, yes. I think this is because they think that the green arrow was skipped, so they pull forward to avoid missing the light entirely. That said, even at the left turns that I go through regularly (https://goo.gl/maps/KLxWswzZMSSRT6Ma9) where lagging left turns are normal, drivers do not always pull forward. Eventually, there is usually a gap, but then the green arrow activates, so the "pulling forward" bit only helps those of us trying to complete the left turn quicker. At that point, especially at those intersections where lagging green arrows are employed habitually (side-streets approaching a major road in this area), drivers will sometimes wait behind the line (unless there is a gap) because they become accustomed to the lagging green arrow ("I don't need to worry about pulling forward because there is a green arrow at the end"). Most drivers to creep forward, yes, but there are still some that don't. This is compared to those intersections where there is no green arrow at all, where pulling-forward compliance is near 100%.

This talk of lagging left turns and creeping forward does remind me why I tend to prefer advanced left turns: the capacity seems to be a bit higher at intersections where a left turn will absolutely be needed: you get all of the cars at the beginning of the phase, and then at least one or two (sometimes more) at the end during the clearance phase. It's a relatively minor increase in capacity, but certainly noticeable, especially in everyday driving. In comparison, there is no "clearance" phase to accept a couple more cars at lagging lefts.

Herein lies the difference between leading and lagging lefts.  For a leading left, I get a protected turn at the beginning of the cycle and I get a chance for one or two cars to turn at the end of the cycle.  From the point of view of how many cars can turn left for a given amount of protected time, I agree you get an extra one or two cars during the clearance phase.  A lagging left does not have the clearance phase, so if the amount of time for the green arrow in both cases is equivalent, more cars will be able to turn in the leading scenario.

However, when taken from the point of view of how much time does servicing lefts take away from the through traffic phases, the lagging left is better.  [This is addressed more to Jake's comment 1579 not 1580.]  As you said in Reply 1579, through traffic is better served to the extent that we do not break away from the through traffic to service a protected left turn.  This is true.  Assuming good sensors on the pavement, you are far more likely to be able to skip the protected left turn phase entirely with a lagging setting  than you are with a leading setting.

Let's take an example.  Suppose the signal is set up to activate the left turn arrow if there are at least three cars sitting in the left turn lane.  In a leading setting, it will notice three cars and provide a protected left.  This is true even if there will likely be gaps in the through phase that follows.  But in a lagging setting, the green arrow follows the through phase.  If enough left turning cars are serviced in the through phase (by finding natural gaps in traffic), then it is possible (even likely) that the left turn phase is skipped entirely.  There are more likely to be cars waiting to turn in the leading scenario since the left turn lane traffic can build up while the light is red.  But in the lagging scenario, we provide the maximum opportunity for cars to clear during the green orb phase, and only if it is still necessary do we light the green arrow to provide a protected left to prevent backups in the left turn lane.

So, IMO, leading lefts better serve the left turners, for the reasons you stated, but lagging lefts better serve the intersection as a whole.  Of course, this assumes that all the yellow trap issues are properly addressed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 17, 2020, 04:42:15 PM
Sometimes lights can even have both a lead and lagging cycle. This is best to be used at an intersection with a shared turn lane that has heavy left turn usage. IMO T intersections should utilize lagging lefts way more than they do.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on June 17, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least restrictive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

edit: word choice

With the FYA intersections I see in my area (CO/UT), if the opposing left turn lane gets a leading green arrow, in some cases, I see the left turn lane  in my direction will get a FYA, in case there was little to no through traffic one can turn left without waiting for a green arrow/green ball.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 07:23:14 PM
Quote from: thenetwork on June 17, 2020, 06:19:16 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 15, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
When designing roadways, it's always important to look at various options.  Having a FYA at every signal isn't necessary.  Heck, having a left turn arrow at every intersection isn't necessary.

I would say that left turn arrows are arguably not necessary at most intersections. Traffic turning left can turn behind through traffic, and at least two cars should be able to turn at the end of a fully-saturated cycle. Left turn signals can be added in this case, at least when there is a side-street with enough traffic to not allow the signal to remain green to clear all traffic. The idea of adding left turn signals when there are too many oncoming lanes, or a speed limit that's too high, or just as part of policy, seems (as much as I hate the term) like policy overreach. All signals should start with the least restrictive phasing possible, and only progress beyond that as absolutely necessary.

One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.

edit: word choice

With the FYA intersections I see in my area (CO/UT), if the opposing left turn lane gets a leading green arrow, in some cases, I see the left turn lane  in my direction will get a FYA, in case there was little to no through traffic one can turn left without waiting for a green arrow/green ball.

One of the great features of FYAs, giving more time for a potential left turn.  While it isn't too common to allow the FYA to be displayed opposite a leading green arrow - there is no safety issue to do so (other than possible protection for pedestrians ala leading pedestrian interval).

The opposite situation, FYA in the opposite direction of a lagging green arrow, is absolutely required to avoid yellow trap.  The only other ways to avoid yellow trap with a lagging left is to totally prohibit the left opposite a lagging green arrow, restrict the opposite left turn by making it protected only [red arrow],  or by making totally simultaneous lagging lefts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 19, 2020, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 04:03:00 PM
Let's take an example.  Suppose the signal is set up to activate the left turn arrow if there are at least three cars sitting in the left turn lane.  In a leading setting, it will notice three cars and provide a protected left.  This is true even if there will likely be gaps in the through phase that follows.  But in a lagging setting, the green arrow follows the through phase.  If enough left turning cars are serviced in the through phase (by finding natural gaps in traffic), then it is possible (even likely) that the left turn phase is skipped entirely.  There are more likely to be cars waiting to turn in the leading scenario since the left turn lane traffic can build up while the light is red.  But in the lagging scenario, we provide the maximum opportunity for cars to clear during the green orb phase, and only if it is still necessary do we light the green arrow to provide a protected left to prevent backups in the left turn lane.

So, IMO, leading lefts better serve the left turners, for the reasons you stated, but lagging lefts better serve the intersection as a whole.  Of course, this assumes that all the yellow trap issues are properly addressed.

A technical note: The detection used with most signals does not count vehicles, especially inductive loops. It works based on presence detection–is there a vehicle within the detection zone or not? Detection zones are usually only a car length or two, but it's usually a "yes/no" input to the controller as opposed to a "0/1/2/...".

And given the random arrival nature of traffic, unless the signal is in a coordinated system where arrival platoons are frequent, you're just as likely to have vehicles stack up in the left turn pocket during red (leading left scenario) as you are during FYA/permitted left (lagging left scenario). When it's time for the controller to address the protected left turn in the cycle, it's just going to look and see whether any left turn vehicles are still detected to determine to activate the green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 19, 2020, 08:45:36 PM
We have an intersection in my neighborhood where the induction loop was placed one car length back from the stop line so it would only activate the arrow if there were at least two cars in the left-turn lane. But LOL, if I was the only car in the lane, I would stop well back from the stop-line, right over the loop so I would get the arrow!

However most drivers did not notice the placement of the loop and thought the arrow was failing to work. I assume the County got too many complaints about it because they finally dug up the loop and re-installed it in the usual spot behind the stop-line.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 20, 2020, 03:33:21 PM
^ I've seen installations in Nevada where the through lanes have detector loops just right at the stop bar, but left turn lanes often have two sets of loops so that two cars in the pocket can set off detection. I've also seen installations where there are some detection loops beyond the stop line, in order to detect left turning vehicles that are waiting for a gap during permissive phasing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 20, 2020, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 19, 2020, 08:45:36 PM
But LOL, if I was the first car in the lane, I would stop well back from the stop-line, right over the loop so I would get the arrow!

Why? Since when have arrows been required to make a turn? If you're the only one there, just turn in a gap or at the end. Don't be selfish.

Quote from: roadfro on June 20, 2020, 03:33:21 PM
^ I've seen installations in Nevada where the through lanes have detector loops just right at the stop bar, but left turn lanes often have two sets of loops so that two cars in the pocket can set off detection. I've also seen installations where there are some detection loops beyond the stop line, in order to detect left turning vehicles that are waiting for a gap during permissive phasing.

Shit, I've seen intersections in parts of WA where video detection systems can see well beyond the stop line. I've had lights that trip from my car just barely nosing into the left turn lane.

Definitely haven't seen one activate when I was waiting to turn, although I always wait in the middle of the junction, well beyond the typical detection points.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 20, 2020, 05:16:12 PM
Never noticed this until now. FYA left turn signal is installed on a shared left-thru lane. Lee NH. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1533285,-71.0053744,3a,75y,350.41h,85.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGyyZAbEDEW2mo3b6ue9MdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Quote from: jakeroot on June 20, 2020, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 19, 2020, 08:45:36 PM
But LOL, if I was the first car in the lane, I would stop well back from the stop-line, right over the loop so I would get the arrow!

Why? Since when have arrows been required to make a turn? If you're the only one there, just turn in a gap or at the end. Don't be selfish.

Quote from: roadfro on June 20, 2020, 03:33:21 PM
^ I've seen installations in Nevada where the through lanes have detector loops just right at the stop bar, but left turn lanes often have two sets of loops so that two cars in the pocket can set off detection. I've also seen installations where there are some detection loops beyond the stop line, in order to detect left turning vehicles that are waiting for a gap during permissive phasing.

Shit, I've seen intersections in parts of WA where video detection systems can see well beyond the stop line. I've had lights that trip from my car just barely nosing into the left turn lane.

Definitely haven't seen one activate when I was waiting to turn, although I always wait in the middle of the junction, well beyond the typical detection points.

There's an intersection in my hometown where the sensor is also placed farther back. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4143975,-70.7478536,3a,48.2y,125.19h,91.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw5tepka0uv74eD0OMeXZ9g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dw5tepka0uv74eD0OMeXZ9g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D159.42609%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) It's placed where the left painted arrow is beneath the ONLY marking. Come to think of it, my town is also replacing loop detected with 360 degree cameras for the sensors when new signals will be installed next year. With the limited field of view, would it be possible for the detection zone on these kind of sensors to be placed back farther than at the line? I just wonder if those sensors would be confused if the detection zone is placed farther back with other traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on June 20, 2020, 06:23:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 07:23:14 PM
One of the great features of FYAs, giving more time for a potential left turn.  While it isn't too common to allow the FYA to be displayed opposite a leading green arrow - there is no safety issue to do so (other than possible protection for pedestrians ala leading pedestrian interval).

At least in the Midwest, not having a FYA active when the opposing left turn gets a green arrow would be the exception.  Almost all the FYA installations I have seen and can recall in Illinois, Missouri, Iowa, and Nebraska will bring up the FYA when there is a not a vehicle present to call the leading green arrow.  The main variable seems to be how long after the opposing through movement turns green does the FYA come up.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 20, 2020, 08:33:29 PM
Jakeroot, to answer your question above: It's faster, easier and safer to make a left turn on a leading green-arrow than to wait for a gap. Also visibility of oncoming traffic is an issue at this intersection as the road takes a right bend as it crosses over, so it can be difficult to see oncoming traffic if there are vehicles in the opposing direction waiting to turn left.

But I also have to confess the mischievous satisfaction of beating the County's dumb set-up to make the arrow come on. LOL And as I stated above, the County has since changed the installation to make the arrow work the way most drivers would expect it to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 11:09:48 AM
Quote from: roadfro on June 19, 2020, 04:21:20 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 17, 2020, 04:03:00 PM
Let's take an example.  Suppose the signal is set up to activate the left turn arrow if there are at least three cars sitting in the left turn lane.  In a leading setting, it will notice three cars and provide a protected left.  This is true even if there will likely be gaps in the through phase that follows.  But in a lagging setting, the green arrow follows the through phase.  If enough left turning cars are serviced in the through phase (by finding natural gaps in traffic), then it is possible (even likely) that the left turn phase is skipped entirely.  There are more likely to be cars waiting to turn in the leading scenario since the left turn lane traffic can build up while the light is red.  But in the lagging scenario, we provide the maximum opportunity for cars to clear during the green orb phase, and only if it is still necessary do we light the green arrow to provide a protected left to prevent backups in the left turn lane.

So, IMO, leading lefts better serve the left turners, for the reasons you stated, but lagging lefts better serve the intersection as a whole.  Of course, this assumes that all the yellow trap issues are properly addressed.

A technical note: The detection used with most signals does not count vehicles, especially inductive loops. It works based on presence detection–is there a vehicle within the detection zone or not? Detection zones are usually only a car length or two, but it's usually a "yes/no" input to the controller as opposed to a "0/1/2/...".

And given the random arrival nature of traffic, unless the signal is in a coordinated system where arrival platoons are frequent, you're just as likely to have vehicles stack up in the left turn pocket during red (leading left scenario) as you are during FYA/permitted left (lagging left scenario). When it's time for the controller to address the protected left turn in the cycle, it's just going to look and see whether any left turn vehicles are still detected to determine to activate the green arrow.

With random traffic patterns, yes the left turn lane will stack up at an even rate.  But with a lagging left turn, there is more of a likelihood that whatever cars are there would go during the green phase.  At times of heavy traffic, yes, you will have a left turn signal during every traffic phase.  But if there are only one or two cars waiting to turn during moderate traffic, for the leading left the left turn signal will be triggered -- but under similar conditions the lagging left will not be triggered, becuase the left turn lane will be emptied before the end of the green orb phase as the left turners will go during the natural gaps in traffic.

While it is true that most induction loops are designed merely to detect presence, they can be aligned in such a way as to indirectly "count" the number of vehicles.  Look at this intersection La Cienega/Olympic in Los Angeles, near Beverly Hills.  (View satellite and hide labels).  Do you see all those circles in the left turn lane?  They are induction loops.  It seems that one lane has as many as five loops.  Indirectly, this is used to "count" the number of vehicles.  [By needing more than one of the loops to trigger the signal change.]  My recollection is that Los Angeles DOT traditionally favored thru traffic over left turners, which explains why they were late adopters of left turn signals at many intersections.  And to the extent they allowed left turn signals, which were usually leading lefts unless the opposing left was somehow restricted, you would typically need at least three cars waiting in the lane to activate the signal.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Beverly+Hills,+CA/@34.0590798,-118.3762021,38m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2bc04d6d147ab:0xd6c7c379fd081ed1!8m2!3d34.0736204!4d-118.4003563
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 21, 2020, 01:36:21 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 11:09:48 AM
Quote from: roadfro on June 19, 2020, 04:21:20 PM
A technical note: The detection used with most signals does not count vehicles, especially inductive loops. It works based on presence detection–is there a vehicle within the detection zone or not? Detection zones are usually only a car length or two, but it's usually a "yes/no" input to the controller as opposed to a "0/1/2/...".
While it is true that most induction loops are designed merely to detect presence, they can be aligned in such a way as to indirectly "count" the number of vehicles.  Look at this intersection La Cienega/Olympic in Los Angeles, near Beverly Hills.  (View satellite and hide labels).  Do you see all those circles in the left turn lane?  They are induction loops.  It seems that one lane has as many as five loops.  Indirectly, this is used to "count" the number of vehicles.  [By needing more than one of the loops to trigger the signal change.]  My recollection is that Los Angeles DOT traditionally favored thru traffic over left turners, which explains why they were late adopters of left turn signals at many intersections.  And to the extent they allowed left turn signals, which were usually leading lefts unless the opposing left was somehow restricted, you would typically need at least three cars waiting in the lane to activate the signal.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Beverly+Hills,+CA/@34.0590798,-118.3762021,38m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2bc04d6d147ab:0xd6c7c379fd081ed1!8m2!3d34.0736204!4d-118.4003563

Well, I admit that I haven't seen that kind of detector layout before. It would effectively operate as a counter then given the distance from the stop line.

For the example you linked, it seems as though the three loops in the center of the lane are likely the typical presence detection. That lone loop near the start of the turn pocket might actually be a passage gap detector, although passage gap operation is more typical of through lanes. Most setups I'm aware of will use multiple loops for a presence detection zone–in Nevada, it's usually two loops (or sometimes four loops in turn lanes) near the stop line (two loops covers one typical car length), with a pair of loops being wired to the same circuit–but passage gap detection is usually only one loop much further back from the stop line.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 02:38:44 PM
I know I linked this document before, probably in the Pac SW boards, but here is a great history of L.A. Traffic innovations.  Relevant to the conversations in this thread, I have eluded to the Los Angeles DOT philosophy that was traditionally hostile to protected left turns, because it would take time away from through traffic.  While all of this document is interesting, the most pertinent discussion can be located in the section discussed as "The Evolution of Left-Turn Phasing in the  Los Angeles Area " (starting on page 91)

Quote

As discussed in Part 1, left-turn phasing in Los Angeles was a novelty, in the 1950's and 1960's, due to signal equipment restrictions and the limited number of continuous raised median islands. By the early
1970's, left-turn phasing became a routine design on State highways and suburban boulevards in areas adjacent
to Los Angeles. However, it would not become a standard feature on Los Angeles' more urban streets due to
the traffic signal operating philosophy that prevailed throughout most of the 1970's.

The philosophy reflected the distinct signal system that
the City of Los Angeles operated. Unlike the Division
of Highways, which operated signals along a few, widely
spaced State Highways, the City of Los Angeles operated
signals throughout a network with signal spacing at approximately 1/4-mile intervals. This type of signal network allowed 30 mile-per-hour progression to be maintained in all directions with short (50 to 70 second) cycle lengths. However, the addition of left turn arrows
would require longer cycle lengths, which, in turn, would
severely compromise progression. This degradation in
progression was avoided by resisting requests to install
left turn arrows.

Quote
Part 2 explained how the City's approach to left-turn phasing started to change due to popular demand for
this feature. The turning point was when a judge of the Downtown federal court house could not convince
LADOT staff to approve a left turn arrow for eastbound Temple Street at Main Street. He appealed to Councilman Gilbert Lindsay who forced LADOT to install it by Council motion. Having to be compliant with the
mandate, but disliking being over-ruled, LADOT implemented a form of "occasional"  left-turn phasing at this
location in 1991 that differed in two ways from traditional left turn phasing. The first difference was that motorists could turn on the "protected"  green arrow after having an opportunity to turn during the "permissive"
circular green, upon yielding to opposing traffic. The second difference was that the arrow would be activated
only if the queue of left-turn traffic extended four car lengths, as monitored by in-pavement detectors. This
protected/permissive left turn operation with queue detection, would become known as the Los Angeles form
of left-turn phasing and the model for most subsequent installations in the City.


https://ladot.lacity.org/sites/default/files/documents/transportation-topics-and-tales-milestones-in-transportation-history-in-southern-california.pdf

So yes, while the leading left turn is more popular now in Los Angeles (and in most other places in the country), if the goal was to only allow for a protected green arrow when absolutley necessary, a lagging green would work better as it would only turn green if there were still cars to be serviced at the end of the cycle.

Main St Los Angeles, then and now, is one-way northbound.  So a lagging left turn onto it would not have a yellow trap problem.

Most other PPLTs in Los Angeles (like Olympic/La Cienega that I referred in my other post) are leading lefts.  But yet they are still designed to activate only after a certain number of cars are waiting in the lane.  As Jake pointed out earlier, even in saturated conditions, two cars can probably turn at the end of a cycle.  This is very ingrained in Los Angeles culture (at least when I lived there) and usually two cars were permitted to turn at the end.  So if two cars will turn anyway at then end, we shouldn't stop everyone to give priority to a left turn arrow unless there are a significant number (4 or more) waiting to turn.

And yes, based on my experience, very few other cities do this.  Most other places I've been with PPLT leading left will provide a left turn arrow even if only one car is waiting, and even if there is reasonable likelihood that there will be a gap in traffic during the green orb.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 03:41:01 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 02:38:44 PM
Most other PPLTs in Los Angeles (like Olympic/La Cienega that I referred in my other post) are leading lefts.  But yet they are still designed to activate only after a certain number of cars are waiting in the lane.  As Jake pointed out earlier, even in saturated conditions, two cars can probably turn at the end of a cycle.  This is very ingrained in Los Angeles culture (at least when I lived there) and usually two cars were permitted to turn at the end.  So if two cars will turn anyway at then end, we shouldn't stop everyone to give priority to a left turn arrow unless there are a significant number (4 or more) waiting to turn.

And yes, based on my experience, very few other cities do this.  Most other places I've been with PPLT leading left will provide a left turn arrow even if only one car is waiting, and even if there is reasonable likelihood that there will be a gap in traffic during the green orb.

First, thank you for linking that PDF. Absolutely brilliant write-up, and I can already see myself wasting the rest of the day reading it.

Second, yes, that is exactly what I'm getting at with the concept of green arrows. I can totally understand why they might need to exist, but the concept of activating them, potentially throwing off corridor progression and making through traffic wait for the green, yellow and all-red phases is simply a waste of time when that/those cars could either turn in gaps, or at the end. If cities made a concerted effort to coordinate their streets, with fewer dedicated left turn phases, there might be better throughput of traffic and thus more gaps for left turns anyway. Providing a green arrow when traffic in a left turn lane begins to build is more than logical, but providing for a green left turn arrow for a single car is just a waste, and frankly, from my experience, it teaches people to be lazy and too reliant on green arrows which you don't need to turn left.

Where I live in Tacoma, we've actually had quite a lot of influence from Los Angeles over the years. Although our signal placement is nowhere near as good as California, the way signals are operated around here is exactly how it's done in LA: signals are installed with no protected phasing, and are upgraded in time with protected phasing, generally at the beginning of the phase, and the green and yellow arrows are literally tacked onto (https://goo.gl/maps/GEGJ1ypPdHymV1yE6) the left-most signal head at the point where such signals become necessary. Fully-protected turns are relatively rare, and limited to only very busy intersections (many having been replaced with FYA signals over the last couple years anyway).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 04:01:00 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 20, 2020, 08:33:29 PM
Jakeroot, to answer your question above: It's faster, easier and safer to make a left turn on a leading green-arrow than to wait for a gap. Also visibility of oncoming traffic is an issue at this intersection as the road takes a right bend as it crosses over, so it can be difficult to see oncoming traffic if there are vehicles in the opposing direction waiting to turn left.

But I also have to confess the mischievous satisfaction of beating the County's dumb set-up to make the arrow come on. LOL And as I stated above, the County has since changed the installation to make the arrow work the way most drivers would expect it to.

But the "way most drivers would expect it to [operate]" is entirely symptomatic of how the County has set up their traffic signals in time, which is that drivers get a green arrow as long as they are at the stop line. This basically teaches drivers that you don't need a green arrow to turn. Which is obviously not the case. If it were, the left turns would have red arrows and no permissive phase. If the County is perfectly happy with a permissive phase, why do they go to such great lengths to make drivers interact with this phase as little as possible? As well, if that bend were truly an issue, it wouldn't be permissive.

It is faster for you to turn with a green arrow at the beginning, but all of the traffic coming towards you must suffer for you to gain this advantage. An advanced left for a single car throws off progression along any road, coordinated or not, because it forces traffic to wait 8-12 seconds for a single car to turn at the beginning of the phase, when that single car could easily turn at the end of the through phase during a two-second all-red phase (which could easily be implemented if not already); traffic, of course, can turn in gaps with both setups. By all accounts, such a maneuver is just as safe, because that maneuver takes place when everyone has a red light, and when left turning traffic would have excellent visibility of oncoming traffic (who could be running the red or "pushing" their yellow).

I want to make it very clear: I am absolutely in favor of left turn green arrows, but not at every intersection, and definitely not for a single car. Activating only for multiple cars, and preferably at the end, seems to be the most efficient setup.

In Vancouver, BC, where I spend a fair amount of time, many of their left turn phases activate only during peak hours, when left turning traffic is heavier, and sometimes still only every other phase. This obviously harms through traffic, but is obviously necessary when you have 378 cars trying to turn left, and only two or three are able to turn in gaps at the end. Providing an advanced left at 1130am for a single car with only a couple oncoming cars is a complete waste, and sets an unfortunate precedent for drivers that green arrows should be provided at every single intersection, at all times of day, at the beginning of every signal phase, irrespective of individual intersection characteristics (when no protected phase is more often than not perfectly fine).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
I am bringing my comment into a second post so that others may consider this specific facet of operation more closely, and ideally, critique my thinking:

Consider that an unspecific intersection has a 120-second total cycle: assuming both roads are equally utilised, that's 60 seconds for each road. If a two-second all red phase is provided, that's 58 seconds for through traffic along both roads. If we implement green arrows at the beginning, that drops to about 50 seconds, with that number dropping further with each additional car turning left. Assuming there is only one or two cars waiting to turn, providing the full 58 seconds for through traffic, and leaving the two-second all-red phase for those two cars to finish their turns, we are providing for the most efficient setup physically possible at a signalized intersection.

Providing a left turn phase at the beginning could reduce the green time for through traffic by around 15 to 20%, if not more. Yet this reduction could potentially exist to allow only one or two cars to turn at the beginning, when they could just as easily turn at the end during an all-red phase (which should exist at all intersections anyways).

The only real issue with my thought process is that, in too many parts of the country, drivers absolutely refuse to enter the intersection during a permissive phase. This stubbornness absolutely harms traffic flow, because engineers basically become forced to provide green arrows for every phase, since drivers who don't enter the intersection will only be able to turn in gaps, at that is certainly no guarantee along busy roads.

In British Columbia, although I did not take a drivers licence exam there, I am quite familiar with ICBC's teachings. The most important thing is that, although it is not taught as a "must", drivers should wait in the intersection when turning left. This allow engineers across BC (and generally across Canada) to use less protected phases, because even a fully saturated phase will have time at the end for a couple cars to finish turning. This is compared to places like Oregon, where apparently it's illegal to be in the intersection on red, thus making it illegal to wait in the intersection unless someone is sure there will be a gap. It should be no surprise that driving in Vancouver is a hell of a lot more enjoyable than driving in Portland, since there are far less green arrows and thus much better throughput along major corridors.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 08:22:26 PM
The real model for great signal progression is the Detroit area.  Tradephoric and others have posted videos showing drivers being able to driving distances of several miles only stopping at red lights a couple of times.  This is true along several corridors Woodward and telegraph being the most famous.  The secret in Detroit for their success are prohibiting most left turns entirely at Major intersections by implementing the so-called Michigan left.  Since you go beyond the intersection 2 then make a u-turn and then a right turn to complete a left turn, you only need to have two separate signal phases at the main intersection.  The proof is in the pudding because signal progression is great over there.

The classic Los Angeles model doesn't quite go this far.  In the busiest parts of the city it is too far built up to have the room to incorporate Michigan lefts. 

Nexus 5X

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 21, 2020, 09:14:06 PM
mrsman, thanks for posting that info on L.A. City traffic signal engineering. Years ago when I traveled thru Los Angeles several times I did notice that there were not a lot of turning arrows in the city. I wondered about it at the time.

Jakeroot, your analysis of throughput at intersections is interesting and informative and good food for thought. One thing you may be overlooking though, is that turning with an arrow is inherently safer, even at the expense of less throughput. Drivers waiting for a gap to turn are the ones who get impatient and turn in front of oncoming traffic causing accidents. That may be an over-simplification but I believe it's a significant factor in many accidents. But thanks again for your interesting input.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 21, 2020, 09:24:17 PM
And taking a page from jakeroot's style, a second post on a related matter. It's interesting how different cities and counties in California view the left-turn issue. While L.A. City make not like turn arrows, some places like San Diego and Santa Clara County are just the opposite. In much of the area near San Fran. Intl Airport virtually all intersections have protected left-turns only, much to my surprise. Even intersections that didn't seem to need arrows had protected only set-ups. San Diego was somewhat like that also, with excessive numbers of signal heads in some places too.

One extreme to the other within the same state. It would be interesting to know which cities and counties have fewer left-turning accidents.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on June 21, 2020, 09:34:55 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 20, 2020, 05:16:12 PM
Never noticed this until now. FYA left turn signal is installed on a shared left-thru lane. Lee NH. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1533285,-71.0053744,3a,75y,350.41h,85.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGyyZAbEDEW2mo3b6ue9MdA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)

Quote from: jakeroot on June 20, 2020, 03:43:20 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 19, 2020, 08:45:36 PM
But LOL, if I was the first car in the lane, I would stop well back from the stop-line, right over the loop so I would get the arrow!


Why? Since when have arrows been required to make a turn? If you're the only one there, just turn in a gap or at the end. Don't be selfish.

Quote from: roadfro on June 20, 2020, 03:33:21 PM
^ I've seen installations in Nevada where the through lanes have detector loops just right at the stop bar, but left turn lanes often have two sets of loops so that two cars in the pocket can set off detection. I've also seen installations where there are some detection loops beyond the stop line, in order to detect left turning vehicles that are waiting for a gap during permissive phasing.

Shit, I've seen intersections in parts of WA where video detection systems can see well beyond the stop line. I've had lights that trip from my car just barely nosing into the left turn lane.

Definitely haven't seen one activate when I was waiting to turn, although I always wait in the middle of the junction, well beyond the typical detection points.

There's an intersection in my hometown where the sensor is also placed farther back. (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.4143975,-70.7478536,3a,48.2y,125.19h,91.37t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sw5tepka0uv74eD0OMeXZ9g!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dw5tepka0uv74eD0OMeXZ9g%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D159.42609%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656) It's placed where the left painted arrow is beneath the ONLY marking. Come to think of it, my town is also replacing loop detected with 360 degree cameras for the sensors when new signals will be installed next year. With the limited field of view, would it be possible for the detection zone on these kind of sensors to be placed back farther than at the line? I just wonder if those sensors would be confused if the detection zone is placed farther back with other traffic.
There's a few around me where they're placed farther back as well. Another advantage of placing the sensor farther back in the lane is they usually wait a second or 2 to see if another car will trip it to continue to hold the green arrow. If its placed further back, the signal will figure out the lane is empty a second or 2 earlier, so the yellow can activate while the last car is still in the intersection completing the left turn, instead of after the intersection is fully cleared... shaving a couple seconds off the gap between phases. I've long wished this was the common practice everywhere.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 10:41:09 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on June 21, 2020, 09:14:06 PM
Jakeroot, your analysis of throughput at intersections is interesting and informative and good food for thought. One thing you may be overlooking though, is that turning with an arrow is inherently safer, even at the expense of less throughput. Drivers waiting for a gap to turn are the ones who get impatient and turn in front of oncoming traffic causing accidents. That may be an over-simplification but I believe it's a significant factor in many accidents. But thanks again for your interesting input.

I'm not pretending like that's not a potential issue with permissive left turns (and by some accounts, protected only lefts can actually increase accident rates), but it's nowhere near a total end-all argument against permissive lefts, and certainly not an argument against a reduction in how often protected phasing is activated at left turns. If anything, it's an argument in favour of modification if/when necessary after a signal is installed. LA, for example, was heavily against protected turns because of close signal spacing and the priority favouring throughput over all else.

Should be noted that, in LA, where left turn phasing is very similar to how I prefer signals to be setup, it's not exactly a sea of traffic collisions compared to adjacent cities and counties.

Quote from: SignBridge on June 21, 2020, 09:24:17 PM
And taking a page from jakeroot's style, a second post on a related matter. It's interesting how different cities and counties in California view the left-turn issue. While L.A. City make not like turn arrows, some places like San Diego and Santa Clara County are just the opposite. In much of the area near San Fran. Intl Airport virtually all intersections have protected left-turns only, much to my surprise. Even intersections that didn't seem to need arrows had protected only set-ups. San Diego was somewhat like that also, with excessive numbers of signal heads in some places too.

One extreme to the other within the same state. It would be interesting to know which cities and counties have fewer left-turning accidents.

From my reading (from the linked PDF), it's not only that the City of LA had a totally different mindset for left turn phasing (thanks to signal spacing), but also that the city lacked the infrastructure necessary for dedicated left turn signals. Early mast arms were not long enough for dedicated left turn signals, and medians wide enough to support left turn signals were relatively rare in LA proper compared to neighboring counties with their wider suburban-style arterials.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bitmapped on June 21, 2020, 10:44:43 PM
Has anyone seen a FLYA used with a left/straight-through option lane setup before?

In Bridgeville, PA, the intersection of PA 50 and Steen Road is getting a new signal. It's installed, but not in service yet. PA 50 is two lanes in each direction, with no dedicated turn lane.

For PA 50 eastbound traffic, the new signal has three heads: a 4-section FLYA for the left turn movement and two 3-section heads for the straight-through movement. I really don't like having a dedicated left turn head like this because it implies there's a dedicated turn lane when there's not. (The FLYA head is actually mounted left of the center of the roadway.) The intersection before this has a doghouse for an option lane situation, which is common enough, but I really don't like this FLYA usage.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 21, 2020, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on June 21, 2020, 10:44:43 PM
For PA 50 eastbound traffic, the new signal has three heads: a 4-section FLYA for the left turn movement and two 3-section heads for the straight-through movement. I really don't like having a dedicated left turn head like this because it implies there's a dedicated turn lane when there's not. (The FLYA head is actually mounted left of the center of the roadway.) The intersection before this has a doghouse for an option lane situation, which is common enough, but I really don't like this FLYA usage.

Is this example (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7677648,-69.7205858,3a,15y,164.47h,88.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sseXsQU0FGCpY7CeOxwty1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Skowhegan ME what you are talking about? That intersection in Skowhegan isn't even programmed correctly for proper FYA usage.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on June 22, 2020, 08:52:50 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 08:22:26 PM
The real model for great signal progression is the Detroit area.  Tradephoric and others have posted videos showing drivers being able to driving distances of several miles only stopping at red lights a couple of times.  This is true along several corridors Woodward and telegraph being the most famous.  The secret in Detroit for their success are prohibiting most left turns entirely at Major intersections by implementing the so-called Michigan left.  Since you go beyond the intersection 2 then make a u-turn and then a right turn to complete a left turn, you only need to have two separate signal phases at the main intersection.  The proof is in the pudding because signal progression is great over there.

Other factors as to why Metro Detroit signals run near-flawlessly:

-  Speeds on the main roads are usually kept constant -- 40-45 MPH, which makes light synchronization easier to accomplish.
-  They don't just put traffic signals everywhere they think they need one.  In Livonia, for example, besides the signals at the one-mile crossroads, many of the signals are "mid-block" (1/2 mile), and at Michigan Lefts, but seldom anywhere else.  This maintains natural "gaps" in mainline traffic so other side streets and businesses have ample opportunities to turn onto the road.
-  They also seem to encourage left turns to turn into the center turn lane first, then signal into the through lane(s) a bit better than in other parts of the country.

It also helps that most of Metro Detroit designed their roads with the future in mind -- multiple wide lanes, effective commercial zoning laws keeping the busiest retail areas near the main crossroads, 45 MPH limits to allow for better traffic flow, etc...

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bitmapped on June 22, 2020, 10:25:13 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 21, 2020, 11:56:17 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on June 21, 2020, 10:44:43 PM
For PA 50 eastbound traffic, the new signal has three heads: a 4-section FLYA for the left turn movement and two 3-section heads for the straight-through movement. I really don't like having a dedicated left turn head like this because it implies there's a dedicated turn lane when there's not. (The FLYA head is actually mounted left of the center of the roadway.) The intersection before this has a doghouse for an option lane situation, which is common enough, but I really don't like this FLYA usage.

Is this example (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.7677648,-69.7205858,3a,15y,164.47h,88.49t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sseXsQU0FGCpY7CeOxwty1g!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Skowhegan ME what you are talking about? That intersection in Skowhegan isn't even programmed correctly for proper FYA usage.

Yes. The PA 50 setup is like that one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on June 22, 2020, 08:32:30 PM
Good discussion, it reminded me of a thread from a while back.  The whole thing is good, but of course my post is most important to read  :D https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=22643.msg2320170#msg2320170

Again, along corridors keep in mind lead/lag is usually selected to optimize two-way progression (look up time space diagrams if you really want to dive into the topic).  To illustrate this, you'll likely experience the same signal operate with a different sequences at different times of day (because of volumes, cycle lengths, etc.)  Most places aren't as ideal as the Detroit example, so the spacing, driveways, speeds, etc will all make signal progression tricky.

Regarding where detectors are placed, that's one reason some practitioners don't like loops.  Video zones, for instance, can be modified much quicker than loops.  Maybe you want to test out moving the detection zone to skip some protected phases.  That would take more time and money with loops (bigger maintenance effort to recut the pavement).  On the flip side it's the year 2020 and video detection still gets tricked by shadows, rain, snow, etc.  :sombrero:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 23, 2020, 08:16:28 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 21, 2020, 08:22:26 PM
The real model for great signal progression is the Detroit area.  Tradephoric and others have posted videos showing drivers being able to driving distances of several miles only stopping at red lights a couple of times.  This is true along several corridors Woodward and telegraph being the most famous.  The secret in Detroit for their success are prohibiting most left turns entirely at Major intersections by implementing the so-called Michigan left.  Since you go beyond the intersection 2 then make a u-turn and then a right turn to complete a left turn, you only need to have two separate signal phases at the main intersection.  The proof is in the pudding because signal progression is great over there.
Nexus 5X

Here is an aerial that compares a mile section of a traditional roadway to a mile section of a Michigan left corridor.  The red dots represent traffic signals that stop BOTH directions of travel while the green dots stop only one direction of travel.  While there are more traffic signals along the Michigan left corridor only 2 of them stop both directions of travel compared to 5 traffic signals that stop both directions along the traditional roadway. 

(https://i.imgur.com/zFqKkDyl.png)

Here's another example.  Along a 10 mile stretch of Big Beaver (Michigan left corridor) there are only 11 signals that stop both directions of travel.  Compare that to 22 signals that stop both directions of travel along Maple Road (traditional corridor).  Big Beaver is smooth sailing signal progression while Maple is stop-and-go signal progression.

(https://i.imgur.com/g1wiYdHg.png)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 24, 2020, 07:22:51 PM
I fully understand why Detroit gets brought up when the discussion of signal progression does, although I'm really hesitant to actually acknowledge Detroit given how non-translatable the U-turn concept is, for most other cities.

Detroit, simply put, has incredibly wide ROWs, far wider than the vast majority of roads in the vast majority of cities. When you see cities try and replicate it, you end up having some unbelievably elaborate intersections (https://goo.gl/maps/naqifETwVG1oPypw8) with, more often than not, single lane U-turn maneuvers and almost always traffic must wait for a green arrow. Plus, unlike in Detroit, other cities almost always have to bulb out their U-turn points; Detroit's wider ROW does not require this, with the turns more like tighter left turns, with the ability to allow the turn on red, even with multiple turn lanes.

For me, I guess I just find it more interesting to look at improvements to "regular" intersections with dedicated left turn lanes, since spot improvements for those types of intersections are more easily replicated.

I look at a city like Los Angeles with great admiration because they've made really incredible strides in traffic flow while simultaneously dealing with both significant levels of pedestrian traffic and older, narrower ROW.

As a side-note, given my Urban Design background: although "nobody walks in LA", it seems to be more enjoyable than walking around Detroit's super streets. That's something else to keep in mind when considering the benefits of 200ft ROW :-D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 25, 2020, 11:22:41 AM
Yeah, I tire of seeing the same two Detroit-area corridors brought up as something other cities should emulate.  The environment that allows those corridors to work well can hardly be found elsewhere.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
jakeroot's most recent GSV link form Utah demonstrated something really interesting.  In the midst of the Michigan-left corridor you have an intersection with a frontage road.  The intersection has only two signal phases:  main street and second phase.  During the second phase, the frontage road gets a protected right turn (only right turns are allowed), the main street gets a protected left onto the frontage road (no u-turn), and pedestrians can cross the main street via one of the diagonals.  This is an extremely unique situation.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.075071,-111.9745658,3a,75y,68.96h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2aFDxeLsiRPdNrY-Lp9QvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 25, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
jakeroot's most recent GSV link form Utah demonstrated something really interesting.  In the midst of the Michigan-left corridor you have an intersection with a frontage road.  The intersection has only two signal phases:  main street and second phase.  During the second phase, the frontage road gets a protected right turn (only right turns are allowed), the main street gets a protected left onto the frontage road (no u-turn), and pedestrians can cross the main street via one of the diagonals.  This is an extremely unique situation.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.075071,-111.9745658,3a,75y,68.96h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2aFDxeLsiRPdNrY-Lp9QvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is a really unique situation, and I rather like it. Even though it is a tad complex/unusual from the motorist perspective, it's still in essence what is often referred to as a "two-phase" signal. Only down side is that long diagonal pedestrian crossing–seems like it could be inconvenient for pedestrians, and a bit of a drag on throughput for through traffic if there's a ped call and no simultaneous turning vehicles.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
jakeroot's most recent GSV link form Utah demonstrated something really interesting.  In the midst of the Michigan-left corridor you have an intersection with a frontage road.  The intersection has only two signal phases:  main street and second phase.  During the second phase, the frontage road gets a protected right turn (only right turns are allowed), the main street gets a protected left onto the frontage road (no u-turn), and pedestrians can cross the main street via one of the diagonals.  This is an extremely unique situation.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.075071,-111.9745658,3a,75y,68.96h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2aFDxeLsiRPdNrY-Lp9QvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is a really unique situation, and I rather like it. Even though it is a tad complex/unusual from the motorist perspective, it's still in essence what is often referred to as a "two-phase" signal. Only down side is that long diagonal pedestrian crossing–seems like it could be inconvenient for pedestrians, and a bit of a drag on throughput for through traffic if there's a ped call and no simultaneous turning vehicles.

Yes, I imagine because it is a very long crossing, the amount of time for peds to cross is probably very high.  Yet, given that it is right next to a freeway, there probably aren't too many pedestrians there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tradephoric on June 26, 2020, 12:33:39 AM
Quote from: kphoger on June 25, 2020, 11:22:41 AM
Yeah, I tire of seeing the same two Detroit-area corridors brought up as something other cities should emulate.  The environment that allows those corridors to work well can hardly be found elsewhere.

There are hundreds of miles of Median U-turn corridor in Metro Detroit.  Woodward and Telegraph may be the best examples due to their sheer length but many more exist.  You could also include New Orleans as a city with wide medians that have variations of the Michigan Left turn.  But outside of New Orleans and Detroit are Median U-turn corridors practical?  To be honest not really.  Tuscon is attempting a Median U-turn corridor along Grant Road but it's only so practical (and requires a lot of costly ROW acquisition for all the bulb outs).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 26, 2020, 02:04:26 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
jakeroot's most recent GSV link form Utah demonstrated something really interesting.  In the midst of the Michigan-left corridor you have an intersection with a frontage road.  The intersection has only two signal phases:  main street and second phase.  During the second phase, the frontage road gets a protected right turn (only right turns are allowed), the main street gets a protected left onto the frontage road (no u-turn), and pedestrians can cross the main street via one of the diagonals.  This is an extremely unique situation.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.075071,-111.9745658,3a,75y,68.96h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2aFDxeLsiRPdNrY-Lp9QvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is a really unique situation, and I rather like it. Even though it is a tad complex/unusual from the motorist perspective, it's still in essence what is often referred to as a "two-phase" signal. Only down side is that long diagonal pedestrian crossing–seems like it could be inconvenient for pedestrians, and a bit of a drag on throughput for through traffic if there's a ped call and no simultaneous turning vehicles.

Yes, I imagine because it is a very long crossing, the amount of time for peds to cross is probably very high.  Yet, given that it is right next to a freeway, there probably aren't too many pedestrians there.

And to me, from the perspective of urban design, "good infrastructure" should naturally accommodate pedestrian movements while simultaneously allowing for relatively good vehicular movement. It seems like a lot of these alternative intersection designs fall apart when traffic signal engineers have to program a pedestrian phase. The longest phase is almost always going to be the longest movement, and the longest movement is almost always across the widest road, which is usually the busiest road. Los Angeles, though it doesn't always, can much more easily accommodate pedestrians because most intersections are relatively simple. The PDF from earlier discusses how LADOT programmed auto-walk displays on Sabbath for the Jewish community. They don't do it city-wide, but it highlights how easily "regular" road infrastructure can be adjusted to accommodate all users.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 26, 2020, 08:52:33 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 26, 2020, 02:04:26 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on June 25, 2020, 05:41:23 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 03:00:18 PM
jakeroot's most recent GSV link form Utah demonstrated something really interesting.  In the midst of the Michigan-left corridor you have an intersection with a frontage road.  The intersection has only two signal phases:  main street and second phase.  During the second phase, the frontage road gets a protected right turn (only right turns are allowed), the main street gets a protected left onto the frontage road (no u-turn), and pedestrians can cross the main street via one of the diagonals.  This is an extremely unique situation.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.075071,-111.9745658,3a,75y,68.96h,76.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2aFDxeLsiRPdNrY-Lp9QvA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

That is a really unique situation, and I rather like it. Even though it is a tad complex/unusual from the motorist perspective, it's still in essence what is often referred to as a "two-phase" signal. Only down side is that long diagonal pedestrian crossing–seems like it could be inconvenient for pedestrians, and a bit of a drag on throughput for through traffic if there's a ped call and no simultaneous turning vehicles.

Yes, I imagine because it is a very long crossing, the amount of time for peds to cross is probably very high.  Yet, given that it is right next to a freeway, there probably aren't too many pedestrians there.

And to me, from the perspective of urban design, "good infrastructure" should naturally accommodate pedestrian movements while simultaneously allowing for relatively good vehicular movement. It seems like a lot of these alternative intersection designs fall apart when traffic signal engineers have to program a pedestrian phase. The longest phase is almost always going to be the longest movement, and the longest movement is almost always across the widest road, which is usually the busiest road. Los Angeles, though it doesn't always, can much more easily accommodate pedestrians because most intersections are relatively simple. The PDF from earlier discusses how LADOT programmed auto-walk displays on Sabbath for the Jewish community. They don't do it city-wide, but it highlights how easily "regular" road infrastructure can be adjusted to accommodate all users.

I think another aspect as to why the LADOT was easy to accommodate the Sabbath signaling was that for the most part it affected traffic on a low traffic day (Saturday).  Yes, there are some Jewish holidays that occur on weekdays, but they are only a few of them  - so most weekday and rush hour traffic remain unaffected by it.  Plus, if a significant number of residents in that neighborhood are observing Sabbath or a Jewish holiday (and hence not driving) the traffic counts are lower for that neighborhood, even if there is no significant change in traffic counts citywide.

That being said, I think you're right that if a pedestrian is there in Utah, all of the modeling will fall apart. The signal delay on the main road would be substantial whenever a pedestrian is detected. Fortunately, the amount of crossing there is probably very low so the actual effects on traffic aren't present on a regular basis.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 26, 2020, 10:21:51 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 25, 2020, 07:54:17 PM
Yes, I imagine because it is a very long crossing, the amount of time for peds to cross is probably very high.  Yet, given that it is right next to a freeway, there probably aren't too many pedestrians there.

Pedestrian paths across a very wide road are especially intimidating for blind pedestrians, who–not being able to drive–may need to cross such a road before or after a trip on a city bus.  This tends to be especially problematic at shopping centers, because they generally are both (1) places people need to get to and (2) near busy, wide roads.

For example, if a blind couple from Kaysville used public transit to go out on a date at Denny's or the Olive Garden, then they might reasonably use that crosswalk (https://goo.gl/maps/xj3ed2opeDkjK6Jk6) afterwards to catch bus #627 back home.  (Yes, it would be a shorter walk to catch the bus in front of Dillon's, but there's a noticeable lack of sidewalks along that path.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 28, 2020, 09:45:35 PM
Quote from: mrsman on June 26, 2020, 08:52:33 AM
That being said, I think you're right that if a pedestrian is there in Utah, all of the modeling will fall apart. The signal delay on the main road would be substantial whenever a pedestrian is detected. Fortunately, the amount of crossing there is probably very low so the actual effects on traffic aren't present on a regular basis.

Indeed, there won't be many pedestrians. But it just doesn't seem right to bank on there not being enough pedestrians. Walking is the most basic form of transportation, yet engineers rarely build to accommodate them. Sidewalks are built, sure, but there's more to it than just that. Especially in a country with such strict jaywalking laws.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
I am bringing my comment into a second post so that others may consider this specific facet of operation more closely, and ideally, critique my thinking:

Consider that an unspecific intersection has a 120-second total cycle: assuming both roads are equally utilised, that's 60 seconds for each road. If a two-second all red phase is provided, that's 58 seconds for through traffic along both roads. If we implement green arrows at the beginning, that drops to about 50 seconds, with that number dropping further with each additional car turning left. Assuming there is only one or two cars waiting to turn, providing the full 58 seconds for through traffic, and leaving the two-second all-red phase for those two cars to finish their turns, we are providing for the most efficient setup physically possible at a signalized intersection.

Providing a left turn phase at the beginning could reduce the green time for through traffic by around 15 to 20%, if not more. Yet this reduction could potentially exist to allow only one or two cars to turn at the beginning, when they could just as easily turn at the end during an all-red phase (which should exist at all intersections anyways).

The only real issue with my thought process is that, in too many parts of the country, drivers absolutely refuse to enter the intersection during a permissive phase. This stubbornness absolutely harms traffic flow, because engineers basically become forced to provide green arrows for every phase, since drivers who don't enter the intersection will only be able to turn in gaps, at that is certainly no guarantee along busy roads.

Realizing this post is now a week old: I mostly agree, but that bolded statement is a massive assumption. It seems like it would be pretty rare to have so few cars turning. If it really is determined that turning volumes are that low, then a protected phase isn't needed - but that would probably exclude the vast majority of cases.

Here's a generic example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1823659,-77.4750073,3a,75y,98.51h,82.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpaAopubefceEWCyOyqB7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) in my area - volumes roughly equal on both roads, signal phases roughly equal on both roads, currently permissive-only. There's often 6-8 cars lined up to turn left, and every time I have to wait more than one cycle to turn, which is maybe once a month or so, I'm figuratively :banghead: wishing there was a protected phase.

Regarding your last paragraph, FYA's aren't common enough in this area yet to say for sure, but it seems like drivers are especially hesitant to turn left when the people next to them, going straight, still have a red light and they have the FYA. I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I've seen them used properly, where someone turns left immediately after the opposing straight traffic has cleared instead of waiting for the opposing protected phase to end.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 28, 2020, 11:06:56 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Here's a generic example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1823659,-77.4750073,3a,75y,98.51h,82.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpaAopubefceEWCyOyqB7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) in my area - volumes roughly equal on both roads, signal phases roughly equal on both roads, currently permissive-only. There's often 6-8 cars lined up to turn left, and every time I have to wait more than one cycle to turn, which is maybe once a month or so, I'm figuratively :banghead: wishing there was a protected phase.

How often would you wind up waiting the entire cycle if it was protected and you just missed the green arrow?  What if the protected length only allowed 5 or 6 cars thru, whereas several more makes it thru now?

Waiting an extra cycle length once a month isn't too bad.  A Protected-Permissive green arrow would be the better option.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
I am bringing my comment into a second post so that others may consider this specific facet of operation more closely, and ideally, critique my thinking:

Consider that an unspecific intersection has a 120-second total cycle: assuming both roads are equally utilised, that's 60 seconds for each road. If a two-second all red phase is provided, that's 58 seconds for through traffic along both roads. If we implement green arrows at the beginning, that drops to about 50 seconds, with that number dropping further with each additional car turning left. Assuming there is only one or two cars waiting to turn, providing the full 58 seconds for through traffic, and leaving the two-second all-red phase for those two cars to finish their turns, we are providing for the most efficient setup physically possible at a signalized intersection.

Providing a left turn phase at the beginning could reduce the green time for through traffic by around 15 to 20%, if not more. Yet this reduction could potentially exist to allow only one or two cars to turn at the beginning, when they could just as easily turn at the end during an all-red phase (which should exist at all intersections anyways).

The only real issue with my thought process is that, in too many parts of the country, drivers absolutely refuse to enter the intersection during a permissive phase. This stubbornness absolutely harms traffic flow, because engineers basically become forced to provide green arrows for every phase, since drivers who don't enter the intersection will only be able to turn in gaps, at that is certainly no guarantee along busy roads.

Realizing this post is now a week old: I mostly agree, but that bolded statement is a massive assumption. It seems like it would be pretty rare to have so few cars turning. If it really is determined that turning volumes are that low, then a protected phase isn't needed - but that would probably exclude the vast majority of cases.

Here's a generic example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1823659,-77.4750073,3a,75y,98.51h,82.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpaAopubefceEWCyOyqB7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) in my area - volumes roughly equal on both roads, signal phases roughly equal on both roads, currently permissive-only. There's often 6-8 cars lined up to turn left, and every time I have to wait more than one cycle to turn, which is maybe once a month or so, I'm figuratively :banghead: wishing there was a protected phase.

You need to read the entirety of my post. I am considering a hypothetical situation where a traffic light has only one or two cars in a left turn lane, and how, operationally, it would work much better without a green arrow at the beginning. I think it's fair to assume that having three or more cars stacked up in every left turn lane at every single intersection is fairly rare. Besides, the number of cars grows less and less relevant the more gaps become available. Assuming there is no gaps, two cars can turn at the end of every cycle. Thus, activating a left turn for less than three cars is not necessary. If more cars arrive, then a green arrow can activate at the beginning of the next cycle (assuming there is enough remaining vehicles); alternatively, a lagging green arrow could be implemented.

Looking at your example, the fact that you need an extra cycle to turn only once a month is a testament to how efficient the intersection is, frankly. Consider how much capacity might be lost for through traffic if a green arrow were added? Especially one that activated for a single car.

Quote from: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Regarding your last paragraph, FYA's aren't common enough in this area yet to say for sure, but it seems like drivers are especially hesitant to turn left when the people next to them, going straight, still have a red light and they have the FYA. I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I've seen them used properly, where someone turns left immediately after the opposing straight traffic has cleared instead of waiting for the opposing protected phase to end.

Hmm. That definitely has not been my experience in Washington. The left-facing arrows should make its purpose fairly clear. If they don't go when the through traffic is red, so be it. At least they'll go once the through signal turns green, or until a driver who understands the meaning of a left turn signal beeps at them :-D
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 29, 2020, 07:34:52 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
Quote from: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 21, 2020, 04:28:19 PM
I am bringing my comment into a second post so that others may consider this specific facet of operation more closely, and ideally, critique my thinking:

Consider that an unspecific intersection has a 120-second total cycle: assuming both roads are equally utilised, that's 60 seconds for each road. If a two-second all red phase is provided, that's 58 seconds for through traffic along both roads. If we implement green arrows at the beginning, that drops to about 50 seconds, with that number dropping further with each additional car turning left. Assuming there is only one or two cars waiting to turn, providing the full 58 seconds for through traffic, and leaving the two-second all-red phase for those two cars to finish their turns, we are providing for the most efficient setup physically possible at a signalized intersection.

Providing a left turn phase at the beginning could reduce the green time for through traffic by around 15 to 20%, if not more. Yet this reduction could potentially exist to allow only one or two cars to turn at the beginning, when they could just as easily turn at the end during an all-red phase (which should exist at all intersections anyways).

The only real issue with my thought process is that, in too many parts of the country, drivers absolutely refuse to enter the intersection during a permissive phase. This stubbornness absolutely harms traffic flow, because engineers basically become forced to provide green arrows for every phase, since drivers who don't enter the intersection will only be able to turn in gaps, at that is certainly no guarantee along busy roads.

Realizing this post is now a week old: I mostly agree, but that bolded statement is a massive assumption. It seems like it would be pretty rare to have so few cars turning. If it really is determined that turning volumes are that low, then a protected phase isn't needed - but that would probably exclude the vast majority of cases.

Here's a generic example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1823659,-77.4750073,3a,75y,98.51h,82.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sJpaAopubefceEWCyOyqB7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!5m1!1e1) in my area - volumes roughly equal on both roads, signal phases roughly equal on both roads, currently permissive-only. There's often 6-8 cars lined up to turn left, and every time I have to wait more than one cycle to turn, which is maybe once a month or so, I'm figuratively :banghead: wishing there was a protected phase.

You need to read the entirety of my post. I am considering a hypothetical situation where a traffic light has only one or two cars in a left turn lane, and how, operationally, it would work much better without a green arrow at the beginning. I think it's fair to assume that having three or more cars stacked up in every left turn lane at every single intersection is fairly rare. Besides, the number of cars grows less and less relevant the more gaps become available. Assuming there is no gaps, two cars can turn at the end of every cycle. Thus, activating a left turn for less than three cars is not necessary. If more cars arrive, then a green arrow can activate at the beginning of the next cycle (assuming there is enough remaining vehicles); alternatively, a lagging green arrow could be implemented.

Looking at your example, the fact that you need an extra cycle to turn only once a month is a testament to how efficient the intersection is, frankly. Consider how much capacity might be lost for through traffic if a green arrow were added? Especially one that activated for a single car.

Quote from: webny99 on June 28, 2020, 10:56:06 PM
Regarding your last paragraph, FYA's aren't common enough in this area yet to say for sure, but it seems like drivers are especially hesitant to turn left when the people next to them, going straight, still have a red light and they have the FYA. I could probably count on one hand the amount of times I've seen them used properly, where someone turns left immediately after the opposing straight traffic has cleared instead of waiting for the opposing protected phase to end.

Hmm. That definitely has not been my experience in Washington. The left-facing arrows should make its purpose fairly clear. If they don't go when the through traffic is red, so be it. At least they'll go once the through signal turns green, or until a driver who understands the meaning of a left turn signal beeps at them :-D

Another thing to keep in mind, of course, is that for any given intersection, the number of cars waiting to turn left will change based on time of day and day of the week.  An intersection that may have a really busy left turn at rush hour may only service one or two cars at 10 pm.  The rush hour traffic load will dictate that a left turn signal be implemented, but the 10 pm traffic load would indicate that the left turn signal should not be activated at such time.

It is true as mentioned above, that in most cases, the sensor equipment cannot distinguish how many cars are waiting in the left turn lane so the left turn signal will turn on even when there is only one car waiting.  The exceptions occur in cases (like Los Angeles) where multiple sensors are placed along the left turn lane or if a strict time of day phasing is employed (but that could have worse results as real world conditions would not change the timing).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 28, 2020, 11:06:56 PM
How often would you wind up waiting the entire cycle if it was protected and you just missed the green arrow?  What if the protected length only allowed 5 or 6 cars thru, whereas several more makes it thru now?
Waiting an extra cycle length once a month isn't too bad.  A Protected-Permissive green arrow would be the better option.

Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
Looking at your example, the fact that you need an extra cycle to turn only once a month is a testament to how efficient the intersection is, frankly. Consider how much capacity might be lost for through traffic if a green arrow were added? Especially one that activated for a single car.

Should have specified this originally, but for context, I only turn left here once in a while, maybe a couple times per month, but it varies. It seems to be close to a coin-flip, regardless of which direction you're going, as to whether you'll have to wait one cycle or two.

I'm not advocating protected-only - those can be just as frustrating, especially for a standard intersection with speeds usually below 50 mph and no other dangerous features why permissive shouldn't be allowed. I'm a protected/permissive fan, so naturally that's what I'd like to see here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
You need to read the entirety of my post. I am considering a hypothetical situation where a traffic light has only one or two cars in a left turn lane, and how, operationally, it would work much better without a green arrow at the beginning. I think it's fair to assume that having three or more cars stacked up in every left turn lane at every single intersection is fairly rare. Besides, the number of cars grows less and less relevant the more gaps become available. Assuming there is no gaps, two cars can turn at the end of every cycle. Thus, activating a left turn for less than three cars is not necessary. If more cars arrive, then a green arrow can activate at the beginning of the next cycle (assuming there is enough remaining vehicles); alternatively, a lagging green arrow could be implemented.

I wouldn't say it's rare to have 3+ cars waiting in all four left turn lanes. Happens quite a bit around rush hour, both at this location and the next two intersections to the west. I agree that a protected phase might be unnecessary for one and maybe even two cars, in which case, just set the green arrow to activate when there's cars further back instead of at the first car.

Also, regarding your assumption that two cars will always go on red: I really wish that was the case, but it seems that only ever happens when I'm the second person in line. If there's two cars in front and a steady stream of cross-traffic with no gaps, two cycles minimum is almost guaranteed. Honestly, it's more common for zero cars to go on red than two. I've seen a single car create backups almost 1/4 mile in length because they sit there for three or four cycles and simply refuse to go on red - not at this location, but another location near a school. Forget about even attempting a left turn near school dismissal time - you're better off going straight or right and figuring out an alternate route to your destination.


Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
The left-facing arrows should make its purpose fairly clear. If they don't go when the through traffic is red, so be it. At least they'll go once the through signal turns green, or until a driver who understands the meaning of a left turn signal beeps at them :-D

Right, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of the FYA if people don't take advantage of the opportunity to go before the straight traffic gets their green?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 30, 2020, 02:45:42 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:09:28 PM
I'm not advocating protected-only - those can be just as frustrating, especially for a standard intersection with speeds usually below 50 mph and no other dangerous features why permissive shouldn't be allowed. I'm a protected/permissive fan, so naturally that's what I'd like to see here.

And I want to make it plain that I'm not advocating for permissive-only phasing. I fully understand both the need for green arrows and, related, fluctuating traffic patterns that may either call or not call for it. But I feel they are needlessly activated when they don't need to be.

But, I am acknowledging (and it has been acknowledged by others as well) that there can sometimes be a capacity decrease with intersections capable of displaying green arrows, as drivers will be, IMO, needlessly cautious and will sometimes wait for the green arrows, disregarding sometimes very large gaps in traffic that they may otherwise slip through without a green arrow. So, in that sense, holding off on any protected phasing can be advisable for not just some, but potentially many circumstances (particularly if a side road is quiet and not called on regularly).

Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
Also, regarding your assumption that two cars will always go on red: I really wish that was the case, but it seems that only ever happens when I'm the second person in line. If there's two cars in front and a steady stream of cross-traffic with no gaps, two cycles minimum is almost guaranteed. Honestly, it's more common for zero cars to go on red than two. I've seen a single car create backups almost 1/4 mile in length because they sit there for three or four cycles and simply refuse to go on red - not at this location, but another location near a school. Forget about even attempting a left turn near school dismissal time - you're better off going straight or right and figuring out an alternate route to your destination.

I think that's highly unusual. I've never been at a left turn without a green arrow where the driver did not pull forward. I've seen it when there is some form of a green arrow phase, but not when there was only a green orb.

Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
The left-facing arrows should make its purpose fairly clear. If they don't go when the through traffic is red, so be it. At least they'll go once the through signal turns green, or until a driver who understands the meaning of a left turn signal beeps at them :-D

Right, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of the FYA if people don't take advantage of the opportunity to go before the straight traffic gets their green?

Well of course! But that's something your area will have to sort out. I've never experienced driver behavior like that. Apart from something extremely occasional.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on July 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.


Those people would have some problems in some areas because some FYAs never turn green in their current operation (with possible exceptions for emergency vehicles, not sure). For example, almost every FYA in downtown Boise (there are quite a few) will not give you a green arrow, and some outside of downtown as well, such as at Emerald St and Roosevelt St (an intersection I used to use daily before I started working from home).

ACHD's current policy seems to be putting a dedicated left turn signal (usually FYA if it's a single lane) over every dedicated left turn lane, even if the intersection is not planning on having a protected turn. A "left turn yield on green" setup will usually only be done if the road doesn't have a left turn lane (see Jefferson or Bannock St in downtown Boise for examples). There's older installations out there with turn lanes and just a regular ball signal, but they're disappearing and you won't see that at new installations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 01, 2020, 06:02:03 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.


Those people would have some problems in some areas because some FYAs never turn green in their current operation (with possible exceptions for emergency vehicles, not sure). For example, almost every FYA in downtown Boise (there are quite a few) will not give you a green arrow, and some outside of downtown as well, such as at Emerald St and Roosevelt St (an intersection I used to use daily before I started working from home).

ACHD's current policy seems to be putting a dedicated left turn signal (usually FYA if it's a single lane) over every dedicated left turn lane, even if the intersection is not planning on having a protected turn. A "left turn yield on green" setup will usually only be done if the road doesn't have a left turn lane (see Jefferson or Bannock St in downtown Boise for examples). There's older installations out there with turn lanes and just a regular ball signal, but they're disappearing and you won't see that at new installations.

I can more than understand the desire to install dedicated left turn signals, especially those capable of displaying a green arrow phase, to minimize additional work that may need doing later on, and maximize flexibility in the future as traffic levels ebb and flow. At those intersections, I think we could hope that drivers would eventually tune into there not being a protected phase, and may be a little less skittish about pulling forward as a result. It just might take some time.

I've been trying to figure out how to sign periods of the day where there may not be a green arrow. Something like this:

"GREEN ARROW DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

..so that drivers know during off-peak hours, there may not be a green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 01, 2020, 07:08:09 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.


Those people would have some problems in some areas because some FYAs never turn green in their current operation (with possible exceptions for emergency vehicles, not sure). For example, almost every FYA in downtown Boise (there are quite a few) will not give you a green arrow, and some outside of downtown as well, such as at Emerald St and Roosevelt St (an intersection I used to use daily before I started working from home).

ACHD's current policy seems to be putting a dedicated left turn signal (usually FYA if it's a single lane) over every dedicated left turn lane, even if the intersection is not planning on having a protected turn. A "left turn yield on green" setup will usually only be done if the road doesn't have a left turn lane (see Jefferson or Bannock St in downtown Boise for examples). There's older installations out there with turn lanes and just a regular ball signal, but they're disappearing and you won't see that at new installations.

From your post, I decided to GSV around Downtown Boise and came across 13th and Bannock:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6201144,-116.2078919,3a,75y,296.92h,86.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kNyzg7SdeMq2wmefiWqtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The signage is so interesting to me.  It seems that there are two-way traffic signs up and down 13th.  I understand it may be one of the few two-way streets, but it is odd to me to sign what should be the "normal" condition. 

On top of that, you see "left turn yield on green" for streets without FYA, but no sign accompanying the FYA.  I guess in Boise the FYA is so ingrained that they have to instruct drivers what to do when you don't have one.  This is also weird to me, as I grew up (in 80s and 90s Los Angeles) with the notion that a normal traffic signal does not have a left turn arrow of any kind and that yielding on green is normal.  The yield on green was put up at doghouse singals (if at all) to remind people that they could turn on green with a yield and that they did not need to wait for the green arrow.  (Especially important in CA with very many signals in rural and suburban areas that were protected only left arrows.)  And FYAs needed similar signage because they were relatively new and people did not understand how they operate (and we still have some states that don't allow the FYA).  Here's an example in Pasadena, CA.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1275808,-118.1472417,3a,75y,259.34h,79.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR-DcEibSX2I0WYxPDeOMQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I notice from GSVing that the FYAs in Boise are 4 aspect FYAs for the most part.  Are you saying that the green arrow never comes on or only rarely comes on (certain times of day or a large number of people waiting to turn left)?  Some areas have put in place the 3 aspect FYA (RA-YA-FYA) with no room for a green arrow, since no protected turn is even programmed. (Someone recently posted a picture of one in Kansas, with no obvious reason for a 3 aspect FYA other than the fact that they now need a dedicated left turn signal at each left turn lane.  It seemed odd to me.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on July 02, 2020, 07:44:40 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 30, 2020, 02:45:42 PM
Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:09:28 PM
I'm not advocating protected-only - those can be just as frustrating, especially for a standard intersection with speeds usually below 50 mph and no other dangerous features why permissive shouldn't be allowed. I'm a protected/permissive fan, so naturally that's what I'd like to see here.

And I want to make it plain that I'm not advocating for permissive-only phasing. I fully understand both the need for green arrows and, related, fluctuating traffic patterns that may either call or not call for it. But I feel they are needlessly activated when they don't need to be.

But, I am acknowledging (and it has been acknowledged by others as well) that there can sometimes be a capacity decrease with intersections capable of displaying green arrows, as drivers will be, IMO, needlessly cautious and will sometimes wait for the green arrows, disregarding sometimes very large gaps in traffic that they may otherwise slip through without a green arrow. So, in that sense, holding off on any protected phasing can be advisable for not just some, but potentially many circumstances (particularly if a side road is quiet and not called on regularly).

Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
Also, regarding your assumption that two cars will always go on red: I really wish that was the case, but it seems that only ever happens when I'm the second person in line. If there's two cars in front and a steady stream of cross-traffic with no gaps, two cycles minimum is almost guaranteed. Honestly, it's more common for zero cars to go on red than two. I've seen a single car create backups almost 1/4 mile in length because they sit there for three or four cycles and simply refuse to go on red - not at this location, but another location near a school. Forget about even attempting a left turn near school dismissal time - you're better off going straight or right and figuring out an alternate route to your destination.

I think that's highly unusual. I've never been at a left turn without a green arrow where the driver did not pull forward. I've seen it when there is some form of a green arrow phase, but not when there was only a green orb.

Quote from: webny99 on June 29, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 29, 2020, 12:04:37 AM
The left-facing arrows should make its purpose fairly clear. If they don't go when the through traffic is red, so be it. At least they'll go once the through signal turns green, or until a driver who understands the meaning of a left turn signal beeps at them :-D

Right, but doesn't it defeat the purpose of the FYA if people don't take advantage of the opportunity to go before the straight traffic gets their green?

Well of course! But that's something your area will have to sort out. I've never experienced driver behavior like that. Apart from something extremely occasional.

Even in MA, people are used to pulling forward for the FYA/Red phase. And we've only had them for maybe 5 years now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on July 02, 2020, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 01, 2020, 06:02:03 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.


Those people would have some problems in some areas because some FYAs never turn green in their current operation (with possible exceptions for emergency vehicles, not sure). For example, almost every FYA in downtown Boise (there are quite a few) will not give you a green arrow, and some outside of downtown as well, such as at Emerald St and Roosevelt St (an intersection I used to use daily before I started working from home).

ACHD's current policy seems to be putting a dedicated left turn signal (usually FYA if it's a single lane) over every dedicated left turn lane, even if the intersection is not planning on having a protected turn. A "left turn yield on green" setup will usually only be done if the road doesn't have a left turn lane (see Jefferson or Bannock St in downtown Boise for examples). There's older installations out there with turn lanes and just a regular ball signal, but they're disappearing and you won't see that at new installations.

I can more than understand the desire to install dedicated left turn signals, especially those capable of displaying a green arrow phase, to minimize additional work that may need doing later on, and maximize flexibility in the future as traffic levels ebb and flow. At those intersections, I think we could hope that drivers would eventually tune into there not being a protected phase, and may be a little less skittish about pulling forward as a result. It just might take some time.

I've been trying to figure out how to sign periods of the day where there may not be a green arrow. Something like this:

"GREEN ARROW DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

..so that drivers know during off-peak hours, there may not be a green arrow.

"GREEN ARROW Protected Left DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 02, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on July 02, 2020, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 01, 2020, 06:02:03 PM
I've been trying to figure out how to sign periods of the day where there may not be a green arrow. Something like this:

"GREEN ARROW DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

..so that drivers know during off-peak hours, there may not be a green arrow.

"GREEN ARROW Protected Left DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

I considered this, but I think drivers understand the meaning of the arrows in their own terms; "protected left" may not necessarily mean the same thing to everyone (even if it should).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on July 02, 2020, 12:40:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 02, 2020, 12:28:12 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on July 02, 2020, 07:45:16 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 01, 2020, 06:02:03 PM
I've been trying to figure out how to sign periods of the day where there may not be a green arrow. Something like this:

"GREEN ARROW DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

..so that drivers know during off-peak hours, there may not be a green arrow.

"GREEN ARROW Protected Left DURING PEAK HOURS ONLY"

I considered this, but I think drivers understand the meaning of the arrows in their own terms; "protected left" may not necessarily mean the same thing to everyone (even if it should).
TXDOT installs "Protected left on green arrow"  signs, so maybe you're right. Seems obv to me though.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on July 02, 2020, 05:39:09 PM
I agree that the public will understand green arrow better than protected left. Remember the average driver is not a traffic engineer.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: stevashe on July 07, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5_1mT7hzU) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limg-oUgjOs) (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...

Ideally, yellow trap should be avoided even with railroad preemption. I don't understand, at your linked examples, why there is a recurring issue with yellow trap. Clearly someone has set something up wrong.

I suspect the signs "shall not be used" because yellow trap (as it may say somewhere else in California's manual) "shall not be used" either. Ergo, no need for the sign. This section operates under the assumption that the sign will not be used because the situation warranting the sign would not arise in California. There clearly was no thought given to the possibility of an engineer not programming an intersection correctly. Although I think an engineer, upon discovering the yellow trap, would instead fix the intersection programming, instead of simply putting up some signs that drivers may or may not notice.

In Clark County, WA, a whole bunch (https://goo.gl/maps/kirQEuFFdSk8937SA) of "extended green" signs were installed about ten years ago, although they've all been removed. Apart from these, I can't readily recall any W25-1/2 signs in Washington State either. I suspect the sign is allowed (I'm thinking there is one somewhere in King County, but I don't recall where), but the situation is not permitted according to WSDOT's signal guidance manual (or whatever it's called); basically, lead/lag green arrows are not permitted with protected-permitted operation.

Late reply, but the only place I've seen one of those signs in Washington is this intersection in Stanwood: https://goo.gl/maps/hzhMwzSarJLMDXxY7

It's even on a state highway!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 07, 2020, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: stevashe on July 07, 2020, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5_1mT7hzU) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limg-oUgjOs) (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...

Ideally, yellow trap should be avoided even with railroad preemption. I don't understand, at your linked examples, why there is a recurring issue with yellow trap. Clearly someone has set something up wrong.

I suspect the signs "shall not be used" because yellow trap (as it may say somewhere else in California's manual) "shall not be used" either. Ergo, no need for the sign. This section operates under the assumption that the sign will not be used because the situation warranting the sign would not arise in California. There clearly was no thought given to the possibility of an engineer not programming an intersection correctly. Although I think an engineer, upon discovering the yellow trap, would instead fix the intersection programming, instead of simply putting up some signs that drivers may or may not notice.

In Clark County, WA, a whole bunch (https://goo.gl/maps/kirQEuFFdSk8937SA) of "extended green" signs were installed about ten years ago, although they've all been removed. Apart from these, I can't readily recall any W25-1/2 signs in Washington State either. I suspect the sign is allowed (I'm thinking there is one somewhere in King County, but I don't recall where), but the situation is not permitted according to WSDOT's signal guidance manual (or whatever it's called); basically, lead/lag green arrows are not permitted with protected-permitted operation.

Late reply, but the only place I've seen one of those signs in Washington is this intersection in Stanwood: https://goo.gl/maps/hzhMwzSarJLMDXxY7

It's even on a state highway!

It is really surprising to see it in CA as they are really careful to avoid yellow trap generally.  The NB to WB left turn at Broadway/California in Burlingame has to be converted to a FYA to prevent the yellow trap.   The opposing left, which is currently protected only lagging left could be transformed to a protected/permissive lagging left, but it needs to stay lagging to clear the intersection so as not to block the railroad tracks.

It is surprising that 3 out of the four lefts here are protected only.  The most dangerous left (because of the yellow trap) doensn't have the protection.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on July 19, 2020, 11:06:45 AM
Lots of new flashing yellow lights being installed in Fairfax County in the past week or so, replacing doghouse signals. Unlike in the City of Alexandria, VDOT is posting the signs telling you to yield when you see them. I haven't made a left at any of the new ones yet because I just haven't driven enough in the past few days, so I don't know whether there have been any problems with confused people just sitting there not knowing what to do.

Two were installed about a mile from my mom's house. I noticed them on my way home from helping her with some electronics issues yesterday, so in an e-mail I asked her if she understood what they mean. She said they became operative on Thursday and she said, "I assume you can make a turn when you feel it's safe.  I don't like them.  Too many drivers will be impatient and start honking."
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Went to Lowell and Boston yesterday and saw some 3-section FYA's around the area:

Lowell:
I'm not sure when they replaced the signals at this intersection, but the FYA at this intersection isn't wired correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6436659,-71.314612,3a,87.1y,230.75h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_hxtqM2taiDe4saGl5TGeg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192). The left turn with the FYA is across railroad tracks. It isn't wired to the oncoming greens like it is supposed to be. The opposing direction has a protected only left turn.

Everett: Saw my first right turn FYA in Massachusetts at the Encore Resort on Route 99 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3957089,-71.0661743,3a,41.7y,217.63h,90.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4K74zG7lz5oK3_ZhaTjBYg!2e0!5s20191101T000000!7i16384!8i8192)... I believe the right turn is across a bike lane and pedestrian crossing. These signals were installed sometime in 2019 right when the Encore Resort was slated to open. Are there other locations in Massachusetts where right turn FYA's have been installed?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on July 26, 2020, 04:14:33 PM
We were pleasantly surprised yesterday to find that VDOT has reconfigured some intersections that previously didn't have permissive greens to allow for permissive turns with flashing yellow arrows. The most notable to me was on US-211 at VA-229 near South Wales Golf Course. See Street View link below. You can see why they didn't have a permissive green before. The intersection has now been adjusted so the left-turn lane in each direction splits further off the thru lanes on a diagonal that's closer to the opposing lanes, and there's then a flashing yellow arrow. Nice improvement. I hope this becomes more common, recognizing of course that is also a lower-volume intersection than you see in the more heavily urban and suburban areas.

https://goo.gl/maps/bDQbGqhcn2rcY4Me7
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 09:58:38 PM
Forgot to post this when I came back from Rhode Island last Friday, but here's a horizontally mounted FYA off of I-295's Exit 10 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8497244,-71.5116927,3a,41.4y,287.45h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smFjpu5GpB0aoIIiFcvLClA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Johnston RI.

The red/yellow thru arrows along with the FYA instructional sign is what also caught my eye as well... all arrow setup per se?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 26, 2020, 11:29:58 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Lowell: I'm not sure when they replaced the signals at this intersection, but the FYA at this intersection isn't wired correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6436659,-71.314612,3a,87.1y,230.75h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_hxtqM2taiDe4saGl5TGeg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192). The left turn with the FYA is across railroad tracks. It isn't wired to the oncoming greens like it is supposed to be. The opposing direction has a protected only left turn.

Could you be specific about the issue? Yes, it should be tied to the oncoming green, but I'm curious what kind of issues are arising as a result.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 11:48:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 26, 2020, 11:29:58 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Lowell: I'm not sure when they replaced the signals at this intersection, but the FYA at this intersection isn't wired correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6436659,-71.314612,3a,87.1y,230.75h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_hxtqM2taiDe4saGl5TGeg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192). The left turn with the FYA is across railroad tracks. It isn't wired to the oncoming greens like it is supposed to be. The opposing direction has a protected only left turn.

Could you be specific about the issue? Yes, it should be tied to the oncoming green, but I'm curious what kind of issues are arising as a result.

The FYA on SB Dutton does not flash whenever the oncoming green is lit. This could cause yellow trap if:

- the left turn phase from NB Dutton to WB Broadway provides a green arrow if there are no cars waiting on Broadway (phase skip).
- Not sure how the railroad preemption works at this intersection, but if a train is coming and trips the signal, the FYA on SB Dutton could be wrongfully terminated while NB Dutton still has a green if there is no all-red clear.

This is the first time I have ever passed thru this intersection heading southbound, as I usually go thru on Dutton in the northbound direction, so I'm not sure when the FYA signals were installed. It seems like it was installed in 2019 based on previous GSV history.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: webny99 on July 27, 2020, 10:23:11 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 02, 2020, 05:39:09 PM
I agree that the public will understand green arrow better than protected left. Remember the average driver is not a traffic engineer.

+1

I only learned about protected/permissive terminology from this forum, and would never use those terms in everyday conversation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on July 28, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Quote from: webny99 on July 27, 2020, 10:23:11 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on July 02, 2020, 05:39:09 PM
I agree that the public will understand green arrow better than protected left. Remember the average driver is not a traffic engineer.

+1

I only learned about protected/permissive terminology from this forum, and would never use those terms in everyday conversation.

Some of my neighbors were confused by the new flashing yellow arrows going up in our area. The way I explained it was, "The gist of it is that if you see a flashing yellow arrow, it means traffic coming the other way has a green light and will not stop." Of course I gave some more detail than that, but I thought this was probably the clearest way to summarize it to people who generally roll their eyes at transportation-related issues.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on July 30, 2020, 11:04:01 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Went to Lowell and Boston yesterday and saw some 3-section FYA's around the area:

Lowell:
I'm not sure when they replaced the signals at this intersection, but the FYA at this intersection isn't wired correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6436659,-71.314612,3a,87.1y,230.75h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_hxtqM2taiDe4saGl5TGeg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192). The left turn with the FYA is across railroad tracks. It isn't wired to the oncoming greens like it is supposed to be. The opposing direction has a protected only left turn.

Everett: Saw my first right turn FYA in Massachusetts at the Encore Resort on Route 99 (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3957089,-71.0661743,3a,41.7y,217.63h,90.79t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s4K74zG7lz5oK3_ZhaTjBYg!2e0!5s20191101T000000!7i16384!8i8192)... I believe the right turn is across a bike lane and pedestrian crossing. These signals were installed sometime in 2019 right when the Encore Resort was slated to open. Are there other locations in Massachusetts where right turn FYA's have been installed?

3 section FYAs:

MassDOT has decided that whenever there is a left turn lane, even with no need for a protected left a FYA will be put in. Hence, why there are 3 sections FYAs. I'm in total support of this:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4038966,-71.0359097,3a,29.3y,199.56h,93.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQBdOkAZ7qiHXUoBkEF7xGA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4603345,-70.9455586,3a,19.9y,169.35h,94.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sCzKwHzL0L-1dMN_p5a9fbw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5690703,-71.7971628,3a,24.1y,153.69h,93.99t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXGvIu8Uy7LzZ4_9i431hFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5258426,-70.9273674,3a,17.6y,44.82h,94.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sG8w0g9Y51qSJ6ZA53DV9gw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Now right turn FYAs have also been installed. I don't know of a ton of them but here are some I know:

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5258691,-70.9270963,3a,15.7y,320.12h,94.75t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-goBpBoZqmWVuSHaJ5qm0A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3672461,-71.0776265,3a,29.3y,272.91h,93.2t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4rtuy3as0MTxDhFzBF0d1w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on July 30, 2020, 11:56:10 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 09:58:38 PM
Forgot to post this when I came back from Rhode Island last Friday, but here's a horizontally mounted FYA off of I-295's Exit 10 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8497244,-71.5116927,3a,41.4y,287.45h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smFjpu5GpB0aoIIiFcvLClA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Johnston RI.

The red/yellow thru arrows along with the FYA instructional sign is what also caught my eye as well... all arrow setup per se?

Looks like RI is (slowly) moving up in the world!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on July 30, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
Found the first FYAs I've seen in SoCal off Irvine Center Dr in Irvine. Looks like the signals (here (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6686199,-117.7629029,3a,80.6y,40.18h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0-mQdIBSpN_B0WCCKfFrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) and here (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6686199,-117.7629029,3a,66.5y,224.29h,88.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0-mQdIBSpN_B0WCCKfFrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) were put up in 2018 sometime and are isolated occurrences. Only other FYAs I've seen in Socal were in Thousand Oaks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on July 30, 2020, 12:04:13 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on July 30, 2020, 11:56:10 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 09:58:38 PM
Forgot to post this when I came back from Rhode Island last Friday, but here's a horizontally mounted FYA off of I-295's Exit 10 (https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8497244,-71.5116927,3a,41.4y,287.45h,92.66t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1smFjpu5GpB0aoIIiFcvLClA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) in Johnston RI.

The red/yellow thru arrows along with the FYA instructional sign is what also caught my eye as well... all arrow setup per se?

Looks like RI is (slowly) moving up in the world!

They've been used in other spots too. The last state without a FYA is CT. No one is surprised, right?

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8289212,-71.426664,3a,32.8y,159.97h,93.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s4rnw8jhSkwA-VOXPIJw9oQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on July 31, 2020, 07:04:09 AM
Quote from: STLmapboy on July 30, 2020, 12:00:10 PM
Found the first FYAs I've seen in SoCal off Irvine Center Dr in Irvine. Looks like the signals (here (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6686199,-117.7629029,3a,80.6y,40.18h,91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0-mQdIBSpN_B0WCCKfFrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) and here (https://www.google.com/maps/@33.6686199,-117.7629029,3a,66.5y,224.29h,88.12t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sH0-mQdIBSpN_B0WCCKfFrA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) were put up in 2018 sometime and are isolated occurrences. Only other FYAs I've seen in Socal were in Thousand Oaks.

There are plenty of others around in SoCal, you just have to know where to look.

Here's one in Pasadena, prominent because its at the end of the Arroyo Seco.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1275036,-118.1472283,3a,75y,295.32h,97.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1su6tNPIKDrm8RWb1lqey_QA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on July 31, 2020, 09:06:39 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 11:48:40 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on July 26, 2020, 11:29:58 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 26, 2020, 04:09:39 PM
Lowell: I'm not sure when they replaced the signals at this intersection, but the FYA at this intersection isn't wired correctly (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6436659,-71.314612,3a,87.1y,230.75h,92.99t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s_hxtqM2taiDe4saGl5TGeg!2e0!5s20191001T000000!7i16384!8i8192). The left turn with the FYA is across railroad tracks. It isn't wired to the oncoming greens like it is supposed to be. The opposing direction has a protected only left turn.

Could you be specific about the issue? Yes, it should be tied to the oncoming green, but I'm curious what kind of issues are arising as a result.

The FYA on SB Dutton does not flash whenever the oncoming green is lit. This could cause yellow trap if:

- the left turn phase from NB Dutton to WB Broadway provides a green arrow if there are no cars waiting on Broadway (phase skip).
- Not sure how the railroad preemption works at this intersection, but if a train is coming and trips the signal, the FYA on SB Dutton could be wrongfully terminated while NB Dutton still has a green if there is no all-red clear.

This is the first time I have ever passed thru this intersection heading southbound, as I usually go thru on Dutton in the northbound direction, so I'm not sure when the FYA signals were installed. It seems like it was installed in 2019 based on previous GSV history.

Are you saying the SBL FYA seems to be wired to the SBT rather than NBT?  I wonder why they didn't add FYA NBL.

I'd be surprised if the train doesn't have its own phase (since there is no NBR lane a green ball being shown simultaneously with NB train seems less than ideal)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on July 31, 2020, 09:42:22 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 07, 2020, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5_1mT7hzU) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limg-oUgjOs) (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...

Ideally, yellow trap should be avoided even with railroad preemption. I don't understand, at your linked examples, why there is a recurring issue with yellow trap. Clearly someone has set something up wrong.

I suspect the signs "shall not be used" because yellow trap (as it may say somewhere else in California's manual) "shall not be used" either. Ergo, no need for the sign. This section operates under the assumption that the sign will not be used because the situation warranting the sign would not arise in California. There clearly was no thought given to the possibility of an engineer not programming an intersection correctly. Although I think an engineer, upon discovering the yellow trap, would instead fix the intersection programming, instead of simply putting up some signs that drivers may or may not notice.
It is really surprising to see it in CA as they are really careful to avoid yellow trap generally.  The NB to WB left turn at Broadway/California in Burlingame has to be converted to a FYA to prevent the yellow trap.   The opposing left, which is currently protected only lagging left could be transformed to a protected/permissive lagging left, but it needs to stay lagging to clear the intersection so as not to block the railroad tracks.

It is surprising that 3 out of the four lefts here are protected only.  The most dangerous left (because of the yellow trap) doensn't have the protection.

So do we assume that SBL usually leads, but the preemption could make it lag (and trap the NBL)? 

I was thinking "get rid of SBL" but assuming the preemption turns off the NBT it's not really the SBL's fault that NBL gets trapped.

Let's say budget is a problem and they wanted to make a quick fix.  They could either disallow the NBL or split-phase NB vs SB with relatively low costs. 
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 02, 2020, 08:57:50 AM
Quote from: johndoe on July 31, 2020, 09:42:22 AM
Quote from: mrsman on July 07, 2020, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 09, 2020, 11:58:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 09, 2020, 06:19:56 PM
I've wondered why California would prohibit displaying these signs at intersections with a yellow trap, especially in cases like (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV5_1mT7hzU) this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Limg-oUgjOs) (rail preemption). Except for the occasional intersection that has rail or fire preempt, I'm guessing that this sequence is rare as they have a lot of protected-only lefts over in CA...

Ideally, yellow trap should be avoided even with railroad preemption. I don't understand, at your linked examples, why there is a recurring issue with yellow trap. Clearly someone has set something up wrong.

I suspect the signs "shall not be used" because yellow trap (as it may say somewhere else in California's manual) "shall not be used" either. Ergo, no need for the sign. This section operates under the assumption that the sign will not be used because the situation warranting the sign would not arise in California. There clearly was no thought given to the possibility of an engineer not programming an intersection correctly. Although I think an engineer, upon discovering the yellow trap, would instead fix the intersection programming, instead of simply putting up some signs that drivers may or may not notice.
It is really surprising to see it in CA as they are really careful to avoid yellow trap generally.  The NB to WB left turn at Broadway/California in Burlingame has to be converted to a FYA to prevent the yellow trap.   The opposing left, which is currently protected only lagging left could be transformed to a protected/permissive lagging left, but it needs to stay lagging to clear the intersection so as not to block the railroad tracks.

It is surprising that 3 out of the four lefts here are protected only.  The most dangerous left (because of the yellow trap) doensn't have the protection.

So do we assume that SBL usually leads, but the preemption could make it lag (and trap the NBL)? 

I was thinking "get rid of SBL" but assuming the preemption turns off the NBT it's not really the SBL's fault that NBL gets trapped.

Let's say budget is a problem and they wanted to make a quick fix.  They could either disallow the NBL or split-phase NB vs SB with relatively low costs.

I think what you are saying is that the SB lagging left is a symptom of the yellow trap - the real cause is that SB thru has green after the time that NB green terminates (in order to clear traffic from the RR crossing).  I agree with this assessment.  NB sees red so NB left turners assume that SB also has red, but they don't really have a red so its a yellow trap.

Three treatments for the NB left turn are usually utilized to address a yellow trap situation:

Prohibit the left turn:  No left turn signs put in place.  This is the cheapest option. 

Restrict the left turn:  NB left turn to only be allowed on a green arrow.  Sometimes this means a protected only leading left.  Alternatively, it could mean split-phasing as you suggest.  But at the time when SB has green, NB may not turn left at all.

Control the left turn:  Utilizing the flashing yellow arrow.  If drivers on the NB left focus on the flashing yellow arrow, they will realize that they still have to yield to oncoming traffic even though adjacent singals are turning red.  The DOT can choose between a 4 aspect FYA signal (to allow for a protected leading green arrow) or a 3 aspect FYA signal just to address the yellow trap safety issue without a new protected phase.

The status quo is awful.  We should not introduce a new safety problem (yellow trap) to address the current safety problem (cars stopped on RR tracks).  Fortunately, there are ways to address the issue, but it doesn't seem like we can get the attention of the local DOT in Burlingame.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 05, 2020, 12:45:52 PM
While not a FYA, the discussion in my previous post about yellow trap brought to mind this situation in Queens, NYC.

The intersection of Metropolitan Ave and Park Lane South*:

Let's start with the 2007 view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7079216,-73.8371185,3a,75y,240.47h,81.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFPyeRgXfTijI5CMV2tC8tQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Nothing remarkable.  E-W Metropolitan Ave intersects with N-S Park Lane South.  There is a NB to WB protected/permissive leading left signalized with a 8-8-8-12-12 tower on the side and a NYC style 12-12/8-8-8 doghouse overhead.

Now let's advance to the present day.  For pedestrian safety, the city is implementing leading pedestrian intervals in many places.  But they realize that leading pedestrian intervals are incompatible with leading protected signals, so they convert them to lagging left signals.  But, a lagging left signal if not properly designed could lead to yellow trap.  So what is the solution? They could use any of the three options, I mentioned in the previous post, for the opposing left and they decided to prohibit the opposing left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7080872,-73.837112,3a,75y,214.74h,76.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTInk6DAS6dncCkou8mDIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

As you can see, there is enough room to stripe a left turn lane here for the now prohibited SB to EB left turn.  Moreover, they changed the left turn signal to a 4-aspect signal that used to be common for lagging lefts (but now prohibited by MUTCD).  8-8-8-12 on the side and 12/8-8-8 on the overhead.

Given the penchant for breaking rules in NYC, especially as someone can make the left turn while parked in the median lane (so as not to block thru traffic), I think it was an unnecessary mistake to prohibit the SB to EB left turn.  This would have been a good case for a FYA.  Obviously, the prohibition was chosen as being the cheapest option




* Based on addresses they are both E-W streets, but given that they meet at right angles, and Metropolitan is closer to due E-W, I use that terminology above.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 06, 2020, 09:42:23 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 05, 2020, 12:45:52 PM
While not a FYA, the discussion in my previous post about yellow trap brought to mind this situation in Queens, NYC.

The intersection of Metropolitan Ave and Park Lane South*:

Let's start with the 2007 view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7079216,-73.8371185,3a,75y,240.47h,81.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFPyeRgXfTijI5CMV2tC8tQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Nothing remarkable.  E-W Metropolitan Ave intersects with N-S Park Lane South.  There is a NB to WB protected/permissive leading left signalized with a 8-8-8-12-12 tower on the side and a NYC style 12-12/8-8-8 doghouse overhead.

Now let's advance to the present day.  For pedestrian safety, the city is implementing leading pedestrian intervals in many places.  But they realize that leading pedestrian intervals are incompatible with leading protected signals, so they convert them to lagging left signals.  But, a lagging left signal if not properly designed could lead to yellow trap.  So what is the solution? They could use any of the three options, I mentioned in the previous post, for the opposing left and they decided to prohibit the opposing left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7080872,-73.837112,3a,75y,214.74h,76.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTInk6DAS6dncCkou8mDIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

As you can see, there is enough room to stripe a left turn lane here for the now prohibited SB to EB left turn.  Moreover, they changed the left turn signal to a 4-aspect signal that used to be common for lagging lefts (but now prohibited by MUTCD).  8-8-8-12 on the side and 12/8-8-8 on the overhead.

Given the penchant for breaking rules in NYC, especially as someone can make the left turn while parked in the median lane (so as not to block thru traffic), I think it was an unnecessary mistake to prohibit the SB to EB left turn.  This would have been a good case for a FYA.  Obviously, the prohibition was chosen as being the cheapest option




* Based on addresses they are both E-W streets, but given that they meet at right angles, and Metropolitan is closer to due E-W, I use that terminology above.
How is it not possible to having a leading left and LPI.

You give a leading left and straight but first the crosswalk signal on the right of that leading left starts up. Oh wait as I'm typing this I realize why. Since you can't show a red arrow left. We have too many FYAs near me now that I forget that


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 06, 2020, 06:52:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 06, 2020, 09:42:23 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 05, 2020, 12:45:52 PM
While not a FYA, the discussion in my previous post about yellow trap brought to mind this situation in Queens, NYC.

The intersection of Metropolitan Ave and Park Lane South*:

Let's start with the 2007 view:

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7079216,-73.8371185,3a,75y,240.47h,81.06t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sFPyeRgXfTijI5CMV2tC8tQ!2e0!7i3328!8i1664

Nothing remarkable.  E-W Metropolitan Ave intersects with N-S Park Lane South.  There is a NB to WB protected/permissive leading left signalized with a 8-8-8-12-12 tower on the side and a NYC style 12-12/8-8-8 doghouse overhead.

Now let's advance to the present day.  For pedestrian safety, the city is implementing leading pedestrian intervals in many places.  But they realize that leading pedestrian intervals are incompatible with leading protected signals, so they convert them to lagging left signals.  But, a lagging left signal if not properly designed could lead to yellow trap.  So what is the solution? They could use any of the three options, I mentioned in the previous post, for the opposing left and they decided to prohibit the opposing left turn.

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7080872,-73.837112,3a,75y,214.74h,76.91t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTInk6DAS6dncCkou8mDIQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

As you can see, there is enough room to stripe a left turn lane here for the now prohibited SB to EB left turn.  Moreover, they changed the left turn signal to a 4-aspect signal that used to be common for lagging lefts (but now prohibited by MUTCD).  8-8-8-12 on the side and 12/8-8-8 on the overhead.

Given the penchant for breaking rules in NYC, especially as someone can make the left turn while parked in the median lane (so as not to block thru traffic), I think it was an unnecessary mistake to prohibit the SB to EB left turn.  This would have been a good case for a FYA.  Obviously, the prohibition was chosen as being the cheapest option




* Based on addresses they are both E-W streets, but given that they meet at right angles, and Metropolitan is closer to due E-W, I use that terminology above.
How is it not possible to having a leading left and LPI.

You give a leading left and straight but first the crosswalk signal on the right of that leading left starts up. Oh wait as I'm typing this I realize why. Since you can't show a red arrow left. We have too many FYAs near me now that I forget that


iPhone

I think you got the point, but let me elaborate for the others.

Keep in mind this is NYC, where RTOR is generally illegal.  Thus, an LPI (leading pedestrian interval) provides 3 seconds (or so) of complete protection for pedestrians.  No conflicting vehicular movement of any kind during those 3 seconds.

OK, so if we have a permissive leading left with a doghouse (or 5 aspect tower or other equivalent), you have the left turners going first.  Once the protected phase has ended, then they can make a left in the permissive phase.  If we were to then allow the LPI to go, opposing traffic has a red, but the left turn traffic sees a green orb.  The drivers are smart and they will figure out that they can make that left, even though only a green orb shows, since opposing traffic will have a red for 3 additional seconds.  They can make the left but will bully the pedestrians in the process.  Not the goal of an LPI, which again in NYC is conflict free.

You are totally correct that well placed FYA signals can address these problems.  An FYA SB, opposing the protected/permissive lagging left, would mean that we would no longer have to prohibit the SB to EB movement.  An FYA NB would mean, as you suggest, that you can have a leading  protected/permissive left that precedes the LPI.  During the LPI, opposing thru traffic and the left arrow would be red and when the LPI ends, we will have a FYA that is concurrent with opposing  green.

Of course, every new signal head costs money.  If one wanted to maximize throughput while still allowing for an LPI, you would produce FYA signals to govern every left and right turn possible at this intersection, so that  could be quite costly.  In Manhattan, that is done more frequently, but usually on turns from a street to an avenue (not the other way around) or in conjunction with protected bike lanes.  But due to the heavier traffic and the one-way streets (thereby needing fewer FYA signal faces), this is done there, but cannot be done at quieter intersections like the above in Queens.  So an LPI that even holds back thru traffic that won't conflict with the peds is implemented instead.

So when all is said and done, a CHEAP LPI is implemented the way that NYC did it.  But then again, I believe the SB to EB left turn should still be allowed with a FYA signal to avoid yellow trap, as opposed to the prohibtion actually implemented by NYC.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on August 07, 2020, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 06, 2020, 06:52:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 06, 2020, 09:42:23 AM
How is it not possible to having a leading left and LPI.
...if we have a permissive leading left with a doghouse (or 5 aspect tower or other equivalent), you have the left turners going first.  Once the protected phase has ended, then they can make a left in the permissive phase.  If we were to then allow the LPI to go, opposing traffic has a red, but the left turn traffic sees a green orb. 
Maybe my brain hasn't fully woken up yet, but I'm not following this.  Are you saying that 5 section PPLT should NEVER have LPI?  Or this spot is bad in particular?  I thought for awhile you were worried about a yellow trap, but after reading it a few times it seems you're saying that LPI doesn't exist for the side where the green through comes on later.  I think I get that point now, but I would argue that allowing permissive lefts (or rights, for that matter) across a walk signal isn't "conflict free".  If anything I feel like LPI gets peds out the middle of the intersection and then allows the turning movements  :-/

My guess is that any signal head addition would have cost too much (maybe new equipment would have been required or they would have been forced to follow the newest rules).  Maybe apart from the LPI they wanted to go lagging NBL so that it doesn't come on every phase (if it can find gaps in the SBT) but IMO that isn't worth prohibiting the SBL 24/7.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 07, 2020, 05:45:01 PM
First, I found a very effective document put out by NYCDOT on the improvements when they presented them to the community board.  Check out pages 12-14 on this intersection.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/park-lane-s-feb-2017.pdf

In NYC, the LPI is conflict free, by design, during the first few seconds when it is active.

Let's take a generic intersection, without protected lefts.  For vehicles, the LPI is basically an extended all-red phase that will exist prior to N-S traffic getting a green and prior to E-W traffic getting a green.  For those few seconds all vehicles see red and since in NYC, NTOR, no cars will be moving during those 3 seconds.  Of course, when the signal turns green rights are permitted (yielding to pedestrians) and lefts are permitted (yielding to oncoming traffic and pedestrians) but the pedestrians will already be in the intersection (and more visible to cars).  This is the purpose of the LPI, to allow the pedestrians to get a head start to prevent cars from "bullying" pedestrians from even stepping off the curb.  The LPI is brief, so yes only a sprinter would be able to get all the way across the street before parallel traffic is released, but that's not the purpose.  In fact, NYC generally avoids all-pedestrian "Barnes Dance" phases since they would cause too much delay.  This report analyzes and discourages their use.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/dot/downloads/pdf/barnes-dance-study-sept2017.pdf

Let me see if I can now address johndoe's points:

Quote from: johndoe on August 07, 2020, 10:44:08 AM


Maybe my brain hasn't fully woken up yet, but I'm not following this.  Are you saying that 5 section PPLT should NEVER have LPI? 


In short answer, yes.  Since the LPI is short, if we were to put it in place, it needs to follow the green arrow.  If you put the LPI right after the green arrow, pedestrians would be protected from SB right turners but NB left turners would still be allowed to turn during the LPI.  Those 3 seconds are not fully protected.  But if an FYA signal were put in its place, you could have a sequence of GA, YA, RA (brief), FYA, YA, RA - where the LPI occurs during the brief RA phase that follows the GA, before oncoming green and FYA are released.  IMO, that would be preferable, since they would still be able to allow for the SB left turn without yellow trap.

THe above discussion only affects the west side sidewalk.  The east side sidewalk is totally unaffected as there is no protected green in conflict.  An LPI can be achieved  on that side, even with a NB 5 aspect leading PPLT.  During the 3 second LPI, NB signals show WALK, red orb, and green left arrow.  The green orb would begin 3 seconds later.  Because of the NTOR, there is no conflict for pedestrians on the east sidewalk at all during the 3 second LPI.

Quote

I thought for awhile you were worried about a yellow trap, but after reading it a few times it seems you're saying that LPI doesn't exist for the side where the green through comes on later. 

I think I get that point now, but I would argue that allowing permissive lefts (or rights, for that matter) across a walk signal isn't "conflict free".  If anything I feel like LPI gets peds out the middle of the intersection and then allows the turning movements  :-/


While not as safe as all pedestrian phase, it is far easier for traffic to see the peds when they are in the middle of the intersection, then when they may or may not be stepping off the curb.  In NYC, "bullying" is a problem - cars will turn right when the light turns green to prevent pedestrians from beginning to cross the street.  If the pedestrains are given a "head start" they will be forced to yield to them.  An all pedestrian phase isn't practical as a widespread measure, since it would cause too much delay.  LPIs are very widespread in NYC, since the delay to the intersection is minimal.

Quote

My guess is that any signal head addition would have cost too much (maybe new equipment would have been required or they would have been forced to follow the newest rules).  Maybe apart from the LPI they wanted to go lagging NBL so that it doesn't come on every phase (if it can find gaps in the SBT) but IMO that isn't worth prohibiting the SBL 24/7.

While NYC is innovative in some ways, in other ways, it is behind.  I am not aware of a single intersection in the city where there are any sensors that change the traffic display based on existing conditions.  Every signal is operated by a timer that has probably been around since the 1950s.  Now the timers can be programmed (or modernized) to add green arrows, but they don't sense real world conditions.  The lagging left comes on every cycle, even if there are no cars wanting to turn left.  It is definitely a cheap out, because a well placed FYA signal (either a NB 4 aspect leading PPLT or a SB 3 aspect w/o protection) could allow the SB left to still be a safe  turn.  And given what I know of NYC drivers, a lot of people will make that SB left turn despite the no left turn prohibition and they would do so in the face of a yellow trap thanks to the now lagging left in the NB direction.


Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on August 09, 2020, 03:10:19 PM
Thanks for the link.  I didn't even consider that there weren't detectors at the intersection, but that kind of goes along with the "don't have funds for signal improvements" if they're just running pretimed 24/7.  I get the goal of the LPI but very few intersections around here have NYC levels of peds- I could see how it would at least clarify for drivers which pedestrians are actually crossing and which are waiting for the other crossing direction.

Out of curiosity, have you seen other examples where entities avoid 5 section PPLT and LPI?  Personally I think if the organization is okay with permissive turns (circular green / FYA) conflicting with walk signals, it doesn't really matter if it happens at the beginning of LPI or just the rest of the split.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 10, 2020, 07:43:51 AM
Quote from: johndoe on August 09, 2020, 03:10:19 PM
Thanks for the link.  I didn't even consider that there weren't detectors at the intersection, but that kind of goes along with the "don't have funds for signal improvements" if they're just running pretimed 24/7.  I get the goal of the LPI but very few intersections around here have NYC levels of peds- I could see how it would at least clarify for drivers which pedestrians are actually crossing and which are waiting for the other crossing direction.

Out of curiosity, have you seen other examples where entities avoid 5 section PPLT and LPI?  Personally I think if the organization is okay with permissive turns (circular green / FYA) conflicting with walk signals, it doesn't really matter if it happens at the beginning of LPI or just the rest of the split.

And then at some intersections, they do incorporate a FYA, even when not strictly needed.  This intersection, 108th and LIE service road, incorporates FYA on a lagging turn. 

https://www.google.com/maps/@40.7371401,-73.8517664,3a,75y,145.56h,78.76t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sToUAVWVZoUc9wSa1BqZsmg!2e0!5s20191101T000000!7i16384!8i8192

Before the FYA, it was signaled with a 4-aspect R-Y-G-GA that is common for lagging permissive turns.  (See an older GSV for the same location.)  While the FYA is nice, I don't view it as being necessary since there is no yellow trap problem given the one-way nature of the LIE service roads.  The old signals could have been kept here and the signal modernization funds IMO could have been used for FYA at Met/Park Ln S to avoid prohibiting the SB to EB left.  But they don't consult with me for these decisions.

I don't beleive I've seen the avoidance of LPI and 5 section leading PPLT in a similar context elsewhere (i.e. outside of NYC).  I am aware of at least one other NYC example. 

Generally, if pedestrian crossing is a big concern with respect to a permissive left, the usual way of handling it would be to make the turn protected only.  A protected only turn would not have any conflict with LPI.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 10, 2020, 09:15:55 PM
Interesting how NYC is trying to adapt their antiquated mast-arm signals to the more modern practices.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 10, 2020, 11:58:14 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200811/961311294d2bcc494f4d92ea43e91752.jpg)
Yay MA now has installed its first FYA with a bimodel arrow at the bottom. I'll come here again soon to get video.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 11, 2020, 07:44:34 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 10, 2020, 09:15:55 PM
Interesting how NYC is trying to adapt their antiquated mast-arm signals to the more modern practices.

Good for noticing.  In NYC the standard approach has been to hang two mast arm signals on opposite diagonal corners so that the signal heads both hang over the intersection.  Each signal head is potentially a 4-way signal (but because of the prevalence of one way streets at least one of the ways isn't shown).  You still see two signal heads from every direction, but the placement is a little off, designed so that each direction can see the singal head, but not that each direction can see the signal head well.

If a 4-aspect or 5 aspect left turning signal is added (RYG-GA or RYG-YA-GA) usually the mast arm signal on the left will also have placement for the arrows.  To supplement this, a side mounted (or median mounted) pole signal will supplement the signal so that there are at least two signal heads for the turn signal.  (See the GSVs at Met/park Ln S and the older pics of 108th/LIE).  To go from this state to FYA (or protected only RA-YA-GA), you can simply convert the side mounted signal to a 4 aspect FYA, convert the left side signal to a 4 aspect FYA, and then somehow add an additional RYG signal on the right far side.  Compare the old and the new signals at 108th/LIE from my post yesterday to illustrate this.

So it really shouldn't be too hard to convert a leading PPLT "doghouse" to a leading PPLT FYA arrangement.  This should be done to the extent that the leading arrow is on one side of the intersection if it is desirable to implement LPI.  There is no reason to prohibit the opposing left turn in this scenario.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on August 11, 2020, 02:00:48 PM
I saw my first FYAs in the Wichita area.  (Perhaps there already were some, but I hadn't seen any until last week.)  At least two intersections on Rock Road in Derby (Madison Ave & James St) have had their stoplights changed from doghouses to FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 11, 2020, 02:35:18 PM
How do state DOTs change FYAs.

Is MA the only state that funded to replace 5 sections to FYAs at 350 intersections or did other states have a process like this:

Example or an installed:

Old:

Had 3 signals.

Left on cantilever was a 5 section doghouse.
Right on top of the cantilever is a 3 section signal (still there)
And on the right of the middle of the pole another 3 section RYG signal. (Still there)
Now:
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200811/e25f284ab927e4f7481a3b0e1237b612.jpg)

Another example:

Old set up. Two signals on the cantilever. 1 doghouse and one 3 section RYG (still there).

Now: (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200811/f8ed67ab291a548804cf5033f1fcfcf6.jpg)
MassDOT even adds in an extra signal to comply with the MUTCD, I swear we are definitely improving traffic light wise. We aren't at IL standards yet, but soon I hope. (Atleast we have widespread FYA)


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on August 11, 2020, 04:52:59 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 11, 2020, 02:35:18 PM
How do state DOTs change FYAs.

Is MA the only state that funded to replace 5 sections to FYAs at 350 intersections or did other states have a process like this:

Several years ago, Nevada DOT doled out some money to local municipalities (primarily to Carson City, Reno/Sparks, and the Las Vegas area) to convert 5-section PPLT displays to 4-section FYAs–I think it was part of some safety enhancement programming dollars. Not all instances were converted (I'm guessing some of the first ones that were changed were likely higher-crash locations).

Nevada is usually very good with left turn signal placement (one centered overhead in front of the turn lane, and a supplemental far left post-mount), and there are very few examples of "shared" 5-section left turn displays. Because of this, most of these conversions simply changed out the existing left turn signal heads and any associated signs on the mast arm. (An advantage to "signal per lane" design philosophy in this case, since it's not necessary to move/reposition/add other through signal heads to comply with MUTCD when a signalization change like this occurs.)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 11, 2020, 06:50:14 PM
Quote from: roadfro on August 11, 2020, 04:52:59 PM
Nevada is usually very good with left turn signal placement (one centered overhead in front of the turn lane, and a supplemental far left post-mount), and there are very few examples of "shared" 5-section left turn displays. Because of this, most of these conversions simply changed out the existing left turn signal heads and any associated signs on the mast arm. (An advantage to "signal per lane" design philosophy in this case, since it's not necessary to move/reposition/add other through signal heads to comply with MUTCD when a signalization change like this occurs.)

In most circumstances in states that do place shared signals over the lane divider, a mast arm extension seems to be the most common modification (either by extending the mast arm (https://goo.gl/maps/UPhTvuaHutdNWnau8), or using another similar (but thinner) part (https://goo.gl/maps/CqUceegG6iJuaPk77)), but sometimes, even with two lanes, the right-most three-section signal remains and the 5-section display is replaced with an FYA signal (https://goo.gl/maps/kKNbbVMjYzgZ7RFw5) that (not permissibly?) sits over the lane divider; an extra far-right mast-mounted signal is used instead, to meet the requirement for two through signals (in my WA example, there is only one overhead signal for two lanes, but there is a new signal on the right mast).

edit: clarification.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 12, 2020, 08:40:10 AM
Filmed that bi model FYA in MA:


https://youtu.be/5Xf_zZkm3jw


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: doorknob60 on August 12, 2020, 03:39:48 PM
Quote from: mrsman on July 01, 2020, 07:08:09 PM
Quote from: doorknob60 on July 01, 2020, 03:27:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 16, 2020, 06:20:35 PM
One thing that makes me less quick to jump on FYAs is that, unlike left turns where there is no left turn arrow at all, traffic seems slightly less apt to pull forward. Even in areas that I deem relatively conservative, drivers will always pull forward to turn on solid green lights where there is no protected phase (how else can you guarantee you'll make it?), but the split more like 75 (forward)/25 (behind the line) at FYAs. There have been more than a few situations where I missed a left turn because the driver in front refused to enter the junction, where I know they would have, had the light not had a green arrow phase. Some drivers fully embrace the concept of "I'll just wait for the green arrow if there's no gap" style of driving that seems to pop-up when I see an FYA installed.


Those people would have some problems in some areas because some FYAs never turn green in their current operation (with possible exceptions for emergency vehicles, not sure). For example, almost every FYA in downtown Boise (there are quite a few) will not give you a green arrow, and some outside of downtown as well, such as at Emerald St and Roosevelt St (an intersection I used to use daily before I started working from home).

ACHD's current policy seems to be putting a dedicated left turn signal (usually FYA if it's a single lane) over every dedicated left turn lane, even if the intersection is not planning on having a protected turn. A "left turn yield on green" setup will usually only be done if the road doesn't have a left turn lane (see Jefferson or Bannock St in downtown Boise for examples). There's older installations out there with turn lanes and just a regular ball signal, but they're disappearing and you won't see that at new installations.

From your post, I decided to GSV around Downtown Boise and came across 13th and Bannock:

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.6201144,-116.2078919,3a,75y,296.92h,86.55t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s0kNyzg7SdeMq2wmefiWqtA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

The signage is so interesting to me.  It seems that there are two-way traffic signs up and down 13th.  I understand it may be one of the few two-way streets, but it is odd to me to sign what should be the "normal" condition. 

On top of that, you see "left turn yield on green" for streets without FYA, but no sign accompanying the FYA.  I guess in Boise the FYA is so ingrained that they have to instruct drivers what to do when you don't have one.  This is also weird to me, as I grew up (in 80s and 90s Los Angeles) with the notion that a normal traffic signal does not have a left turn arrow of any kind and that yielding on green is normal.  The yield on green was put up at doghouse singals (if at all) to remind people that they could turn on green with a yield and that they did not need to wait for the green arrow.  (Especially important in CA with very many signals in rural and suburban areas that were protected only left arrows.)  And FYAs needed similar signage because they were relatively new and people did not understand how they operate (and we still have some states that don't allow the FYA).  Here's an example in Pasadena, CA.

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.1275808,-118.1472417,3a,75y,259.34h,79.05t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sR-DcEibSX2I0WYxPDeOMQQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I notice from GSVing that the FYAs in Boise are 4 aspect FYAs for the most part.  Are you saying that the green arrow never comes on or only rarely comes on (certain times of day or a large number of people waiting to turn left)?  Some areas have put in place the 3 aspect FYA (RA-YA-FYA) with no room for a green arrow, since no protected turn is even programmed. (Someone recently posted a picture of one in Kansas, with no obvious reason for a 3 aspect FYA other than the fact that they now need a dedicated left turn signal at each left turn lane.  It seemed odd to me.)

Those 2 way signs on 13th and Bannock I believe are only there because those streets used to be one way. I believe it was somewhere around 2013-2015 they were changed to two way, not entirely sure (I didn't frequently visit downtown until after that). Jefferson was converted from one way to two way more recently, I think 2017 or 2018, it may have similar signage too. EDIT: Looking at GSV history, looks like Bannock has been 2 way since before 2007, but 13th (and 12th) were converted around 2015.

The "Left turn yield on green" signs are pretty much standard at any permissive left turn with green balls I can think of around here, also including doghouses. I remember that being the case in most of Oregon as well. It's just common practice to put those signs. I suppose FYAs are less ambiguous and don't need additional signs. It's certainly true that at least here, everyone seems to know how to use them.

And yes, you are correct that there are 4 section FYA heads around here that will never show a green arrow ever (unless they get re-programmed later, or presumably if an emergency vehicle drives through). I don't think there are any 3 section FYAs in Ada County, which is good because I'm not a big fan of them personally.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 17, 2020, 11:38:50 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200817/989b702398d8ed9176609df652fa3fe8.jpg)
Saw this in Austin TX. February 18th in an Uber


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 18, 2020, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 17, 2020, 11:38:50 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200817/989b702398d8ed9176609df652fa3fe8.jpg)
Saw this in Austin TX. February 18th in an Uber

I've only seen one flashing yellow U-turn arrow, and it's in University Place, WA, southbound Bridgeport Way at Chambers Creek Road (https://goo.gl/maps/2MW7jJYNDYKi9aG27).

The original signal (seen here (https://goo.gl/maps/QuyBgWBbBoXCzzs26) looking east from the side street) was protected only for the regular left, and there was no U-turn, but a median was installed along Bridgeport in preparation for the US Open back in 2015 (to "beautify" the area), necessitating a U-turn maneuver at this intersection. Weirdly, and only if I recall correctly, this (alongside the opposing regular FYA) were the first two flashing yellow signals in University Place. Not sure how many jurisdictions can claim that their first FYA installation included a U-turn FYA!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 18, 2020, 02:23:43 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 18, 2020, 01:51:48 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on August 17, 2020, 11:38:50 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200817/989b702398d8ed9176609df652fa3fe8.jpg)
Saw this in Austin TX. February 18th in an Uber

I've only seen one flashing yellow U-turn arrow, and it's in University Place, WA, southbound Bridgeport Way at Chambers Creek Road (https://goo.gl/maps/2MW7jJYNDYKi9aG27).

The original signal (seen here (https://goo.gl/maps/QuyBgWBbBoXCzzs26) looking east from the side street) was protected only for the regular left, and there was no U-turn, but a median was installed along Bridgeport in preparation for the US Open back in 2015 (to "beautify" the area), necessitating a U-turn maneuver at this intersection. Weirdly, and only if I recall correctly, this (alongside the opposing regular FYA) were the first two flashing yellow signals in University Place. Not sure how many jurisdictions can claim that their first FYA installation included a U-turn FYA!
Pretty cool! Kinda weird it's not a protected left.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on August 18, 2020, 02:25:50 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200818/7eab6590d96dfd16a7b6392b97cda677.jpg)
Another from austin. Weird thing is the opposing left turn is protected.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 18, 2020, 07:46:22 PM
Do you know if the left turn on the opposite sides of those FYA U-turns are leading or lagging?  Many times lagging left turns are designed at T intersections because there is no potential for yellow trap since there is no place for the opposing traffic to go (assuming that u-turns are not allowed).

Perhaps, originally the u-turns here were disallowed and the opposing left was lagging, but when they decided to permit the u-turn (to access businesses that are blocked by the median), a FYA is needed to prevent yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2020, 05:14:26 PM
MaineDOT is finally starting to use the FYA and phasing out the 5-section doghouses in (some of) their new installs... AFAIK the signal improvement projects in Waterville and in Old Town are even including 3-section permissive FYA's for those approaches that don't require a permissive phase!

Now if only they used right-turn FYA's in Old Town for the approches that have right turn lanes, an overlap, and an LPI as seen in the plans below:

Old Town - Stillwater Ave at Bennoch Rd and College Ave (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E1v6414R7No8Lu5cvGfCInUSOF-Zl424/view?usp=sharing), near the University of Maine
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 04, 2020, 08:15:03 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2020, 05:14:26 PM
MaineDOT is finally starting to use the FYA and phasing out the 5-section doghouses in (some of) their new installs... AFAIK the signal improvement projects in Waterville and in Old Town are even including 3-section permissive FYA's for those approaches that don't require a permissive phase!

Now if only they used right-turn FYA's in Old Town for the approches that have right turn lanes, an overlap, and an LPI as seen in the plans below:

Old Town - Stillwater Ave at Bennoch Rd and College Ave (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E1v6414R7No8Lu5cvGfCInUSOF-Zl424/view?usp=sharing), near the University of Maine
Woohoo Maine! I can't wait for CT to install a FYA. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/2e56a517ab59f0357ac3e565eb0dd2e5.jpg)


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 04, 2020, 08:15:03 PM(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/2e56a517ab59f0357ac3e565eb0dd2e5.jpg)

Where is this intersection?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 04, 2020, 10:09:31 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 04, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 04, 2020, 08:15:03 PM(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200905/2e56a517ab59f0357ac3e565eb0dd2e5.jpg)

Where is this intersection?

It is one in MA: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Main+Rd,+Gill,+MA+01354/@42.612946,-72.5495167,19z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m5!3m4!1s0x89e1256b9c270211:0x9ca958292bd495b3!8m2!3d42.612945!4d-72.5489695

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.6130182,-72.54911,3a,33.8y,105.11h,91.16t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1skxY249FdFSHRFmHpAvcj1Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: bwana39 on September 12, 2020, 12:10:01 PM
Texas uses them as well as the solid arrow with the Left Turn Yield signs.
Here is an example from Stateline Avenue in Texarkana. https://www.flickr.com/photos/us_71/10945067225/
I didn't take the picture,but I am familiar with the intersection. These were all over Texas at one point, but now are becoming fewer. The plain white is not the only ones. There were also some with red borders that flashed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: traffic light guy on September 13, 2020, 01:00:06 AM
The newest FYA in my area is mounted at Paper Mill Road and Cheltenham Avenue in Flourtown, PA:


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50242649401_5880aca186_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxLHeT)12-inch Econolite Buttonback Flashing Yellow Arrow traffic signal (https://flic.kr/p/2jxLHeT) by thesignalman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144426590@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 11:06:04 AM
Quote from: traffic light guy on September 13, 2020, 01:00:06 AM
The newest FYA in my area is mounted at Paper Mill Road and Cheltenham Avenue in Flourtown, PA:


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50242649401_5880aca186_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jxLHeT)12-inch Econolite Buttonback Flashing Yellow Arrow traffic signal (https://flic.kr/p/2jxLHeT) by thesignalman (https://www.flickr.com/photos/144426590@N04/), on Flickr
PennDOT signals becoming better and better! When I first saw the image I thought and hoped that was a signal from NJ. What I really want is a FYA in CT. The last state that needs one.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on September 13, 2020, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 11:06:04 AMPennDOT signals becoming better and better! When I first saw the image I thought and hoped that was a signal from NJ. What I really want is a FYA in CT. The last state that needs one.

The gizmo to the right of the sign is a dead giveaway this is a PA signal.

Newer PA signals generally aren't bad. Their older signals though are horrid, and are used long past what most states consider a normal lifespan.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
MA old signals are awful too, but our new ones in my opinion are of the best in the country. Great placement, FYAs, creative phasing. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/ebfb44ea08906de074527311d75e7960.jpg)


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 13, 2020, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
MA old signals are awful too, but our new ones in my opinion are of the best in the country. Great placement, FYAs, creative phasing. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/ebfb44ea08906de074527311d75e7960.jpg)


iPhone
To be the best, I feel like that "Old South Road" sign could be on the mast arm itself rather than the pole. Also, there must be better places to put the "left lane must turn left" sign than by the rightmost lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 13, 2020, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
MA old signals are awful too, but our new ones in my opinion are of the best in the country. Great placement, FYAs, creative phasing. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/ebfb44ea08906de074527311d75e7960.jpg)


iPhone
To be the best, I feel like that "Old South Road" sign could be on the mast arm itself rather than the pole. Also, there must be better places to put the "left lane must turn left" sign than by the rightmost lane.

I agree about the street sign.

There is another "left lane must turn left" sign prior to the lane change: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5682724,-71.7963736,3a,38.7y,321.75h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spbd8U7nod_90UiUhy7QUaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Also note the opposing 3 section FYA!

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5690703,-71.7971628,3a,30.9y,153.13h,90.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXGvIu8Uy7LzZ4_9i431hFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 14, 2020, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?

Emergency vehicle preemption as well. I have seen FYA's used for queue discharge on drawbridges or near freeway offramps...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 10:55:03 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 14, 2020, 08:40:14 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?

Emergency vehicle preemption as well. I have seen FYA's used for queue discharge on drawbridges or near freeway offramps...

I will add on LPI (leading pedestrian interval) as a specific example of yielding to peds/bikes.  With a right turn 4 aspect FYA signal, you can release straight traffic and peds and give right turners a red (or red arrow) and hold them for a few seconds to give a ped head start.  When the LPI concludes, a FYA will be equivalent to green orb (for right turners) that they may go, so long as they yield to peds.

I guess I have also seen a q discharge FYA signal with respect to a traffic circle.  Normally, the FYA will mean yield, which is the normal condition when appraoching a circle, yield to circle traffic.  But the signal will also have a red indication to stop the flow into the circle, to prevent the circle from getting loaded.

My goal with this topic is to list the benefits of FYA because there are many out there that feel that they aren't really needed and are just an expensive way to replace a doghouse.  In reality, they are so versatile beyond just the PPLT indication.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 14, 2020, 04:18:33 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 07:48:32 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 13, 2020, 02:52:29 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 13, 2020, 01:55:43 PM
MA old signals are awful too, but our new ones in my opinion are of the best in the country. Great placement, FYAs, creative phasing. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200913/ebfb44ea08906de074527311d75e7960.jpg)


iPhone
To be the best, I feel like that "Old South Road" sign could be on the mast arm itself rather than the pole. Also, there must be better places to put the "left lane must turn left" sign than by the rightmost lane.

I agree about the street sign.

There is another "left lane must turn left" sign prior to the lane change: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5682724,-71.7963736,3a,38.7y,321.75h,85.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spbd8U7nod_90UiUhy7QUaw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Also note the opposing 3 section FYA!

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5690703,-71.7971628,3a,30.9y,153.13h,90.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXGvIu8Uy7LzZ4_9i431hFQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Following up on this...
I think this (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4690987,-72.614623,3a,84y,176.48h,87.23t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1seMUdmSgzmL8aeio1OU3cBg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) example in Whately is as good as MA gets.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JKRhodes on September 14, 2020, 05:07:57 PM
During my most recent trip to Tucson, Arizona about a week ago, I noticed the major east side intersections (Generally meaning 22nd, Broadway, Speedway at Wilmot, Kolb, Craycroft) now utilize the 4-headed FYA assembly for left turns.

They still have permissive lefts for dual left turn lanes, with a lagging protected phase. The signals seem use dynamic phasing: They stay red at the start of the through phase when it would be pointless to attempt to turn left, then transition to FYA in the middle of the phase, followed by a green arrow when opposing through traffic gets a red light.

At many of these intersections, the cross road has a flashing yellow right turn arrow, a sort of experimental 5-signal had setup that was implemented in the '90s. I've not seen this done elsewhere. So during the left green arrow phase, U-turns are permitted. The cross street is allowed to make a right on a flashing yellow arrow provided they yield to U-turns. Those signal heads remain even after the upgrades.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 02:43:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?

One major negative (quiet major, in my opinion) that I've seen is that through signal state is lost when the right and left corner signals become left and right turn signals. That leaves through signals only over the middle of the mast arm, where they may not be visible to approaching traffic or to traffic facing bright sun, etc. The state of the through signal can be assumed by the state of the right or left turn signals, but not safely so under all circumstances.

I would like for someone to introduce a six-head signal that can be placed on mast arms and pole-mounted signals. The arrows would incorporate a flashing yellow arrow; the other three signal faces would be regular orb signals. Alternatively, mounting two separate three-head signals adjacent to each other, on either side of a pole, could get the same job done. To the best of my knowledge, it would be permitted.

Australia (https://goo.gl/maps/dkJjbE4UP4Qqc3Nx8) (good example) and New Zealand (https://goo.gl/maps/sdC1hDcGA2iV6dST9) (great example) do this. They quite like protected turns but don't want the state of the through signal to be lost in doing so. Neither country places through signals on the far right of intersections where protected-only phasing is used (they drive on the left so this would be our equivalent of far left), but the far left and near left always include through signals, even when the left turn has a fully protected phase using red, amber, and green arrows. This seems very smart; frankly, if we just adopted NZ or AUS signal design and placement, I'd be a happy camper.

As a note: both Australia and NZ utilize extinguishing red arrows to denote a turn that becomes permissive; we'd simply need to adjust that to include a flashing yellow arrow (either bimodal green/amber arrow or flashing amber arrow in the center lens) to achieve exactly the same results.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 15, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 02:43:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?

One major negative (quiet major, in my opinion) that I've seen is that through signal state is lost when the right and left corner signals become left and right turn signals. That leaves through signals only over the middle of the mast arm, where they may not be visible to approaching traffic or to traffic facing bright sun, etc. The state of the through signal can be assumed by the state of the right or left turn signals, but not safely so under all circumstances.

I would like for someone to introduce a six-head signal that can be placed on mast arms and pole-mounted signals. The arrows would incorporate a flashing yellow arrow; the other three signal faces would be regular orb signals. Alternatively, mounting two separate three-head signals adjacent to each other, on either side of a pole, could get the same job done. To the best of my knowledge, it would be permitted.

Australia (https://goo.gl/maps/dkJjbE4UP4Qqc3Nx8) (good example) and New Zealand (https://goo.gl/maps/sdC1hDcGA2iV6dST9) (great example) do this. They quite like protected turns but don't want the state of the through signal to be lost in doing so. Neither country places through signals on the far right of intersections where protected-only phasing is used (they drive on the left so this would be our equivalent of far left), but the far left and near left always include through signals, even when the left turn has a fully protected phase using red, amber, and green arrows. This seems very smart; frankly, if we just adopted NZ or AUS signal design and placement, I'd be a happy camper.

As a note: both Australia and NZ utilize extinguishing red arrows to denote a turn that becomes permissive; we'd simply need to adjust that to include a flashing yellow arrow (either bimodal green/amber arrow or flashing amber arrow in the center lens) to achieve exactly the same results.


The six aspect doghouse is rare, probably not standard, but does exist in the US - in some form.  Generally, a RYG placed very close to a RA-YA-GA signal as here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9846649,-77.0264621,3a,75y,168.62h,79.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqLzw_jxoi4mIS5lEWTqNTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quite common in DC as they tend to be stingy on mast arms, so there are lots of clusters on ground mounted or median mounted signals. Not a fan of the left arrow on the right sidemount signal.  It really isn't necessary as there are already two other left signal heads present.

Many years ago there was an actual custom six aspect doghouse in Beverly Hills, CA that got replaced with a more sturdy mast arm and a more normal configuration of signal heads.

The right side 4 aspect FYA signal for right turns is still not so common and is generally only utilized in specific situations.  The protected right turn (corresponding to a side street protected left) is generally still shown with a 5 aspect signal that combines straight and right functions, either tower or doghouse. 

Left sidemounts tend to replicate the left turn signal, if there is one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a flashing yellow arrow for a right turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 15, 2020, 08:07:15 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a flashing yellow arrow for a right turn.

3-section FYA (South Portland ME): (Western Ave and Westbrook St)


4-section FYA (Piscataway NJ): CR 529 / Ethel Road (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333028,-74.4194717,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on September 15, 2020, 11:18:21 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a flashing yellow arrow for a right turn.

Cannot recall where it is off the top of my head, but I know I've seen at least one in the Atlanta area.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 15, 2020, 02:35:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 07:59:02 AM
I don't think I've ever seen a flashing yellow arrow for a right turn.

We had a topic on them a while ago.

https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=4852.0

Right FYA denotes a yield condition.  Two main applications.

1) Yield to peds on your right.  This is already denoted normally by green orb signal.  But what if you want to implement a leading pedestrian interval (LPI), allowing straight traffic to go on green, but to hold back right turners for a few seconds with a red arrow?  When the LPI is over, a FYA can be lit to denote the yield to peds condition, but allowing the right.

NYC uses them.  The examples shown are one-way to one-way lefts, which are funtionally equivalent to right turns.

https://www.facebook.com/NYCDOT/posts/turning-signal-safety-treatments-like-split-phases-and-split-lpis-or-left-turn-o/10156343974267887/

Here's an example on the right side in Los Angeles:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0533061,-118.2409172,3a,75y,56.38h,90.25t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgAQI2h1qihmS6SWQhOqokA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656


2) Yield to cross traffic on your left and/or peds in front of you.  Normally this is RTOR.  Most of the time, you would need a full stop.  However, if the right turn is channelized, often the right turn will see a yield sign.  In a few cases, this yield sign is replaced with a traffic signal.  The flashing yellow arrow is the dominant state, to denote the normal yield.  However, there is also room for red arrow to stop traffic when peds are crossing and a green arrow when the turn is protected (usually when parallel traffic has the green light or during the corresponding protected left turn).

A great example of that is in Utah:

https://blog.udot.utah.gov/2015/03/first-yellow-flashing-right-turn-arrow-arrives-in-utah/

Before:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312726,-111.889138,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqx9y7lzsD7YkWYG17adwCQ!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

After:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312835,-111.8891152,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iL5ZWhKXBa_w0Rp1fhBzw!2e0!5s20160401T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 02:46:30 PM
Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't doubting that flashing yellow right-turn arrows exist; I was simply saying that I don't believe I've ever encountered one.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 04:38:35 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 15, 2020, 07:34:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 02:43:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on September 14, 2020, 08:15:08 AM
Both left and right FYAs are so versatile, so I'm glad they are being expanded.

Major uses:

PPLT lead/lag that avoid yellow trap
Allowing permissive turns when opposing traffic had green and green arrow
railroad preemption
TOD turn restrictions (left on arrow only during rush only)
turn yielding to peds and/or bikes
Slip lane control connected to a main signal


Any others that I have missed?

One major negative (quiet major, in my opinion) that I've seen is that through signal state is lost when the right and left corner signals become left and right turn signals. That leaves through signals only over the middle of the mast arm, where they may not be visible to approaching traffic or to traffic facing bright sun, etc. The state of the through signal can be assumed by the state of the right or left turn signals, but not safely so under all circumstances.

I would like for someone to introduce a six-head signal that can be placed on mast arms and pole-mounted signals. The arrows would incorporate a flashing yellow arrow; the other three signal faces would be regular orb signals. Alternatively, mounting two separate three-head signals adjacent to each other, on either side of a pole, could get the same job done. To the best of my knowledge, it would be permitted.

Australia (https://goo.gl/maps/dkJjbE4UP4Qqc3Nx8) (good example) and New Zealand (https://goo.gl/maps/sdC1hDcGA2iV6dST9) (great example) do this. They quite like protected turns but don't want the state of the through signal to be lost in doing so. Neither country places through signals on the far right of intersections where protected-only phasing is used (they drive on the left so this would be our equivalent of far left), but the far left and near left always include through signals, even when the left turn has a fully protected phase using red, amber, and green arrows. This seems very smart; frankly, if we just adopted NZ or AUS signal design and placement, I'd be a happy camper.

As a note: both Australia and NZ utilize extinguishing red arrows to denote a turn that becomes permissive; we'd simply need to adjust that to include a flashing yellow arrow (either bimodal green/amber arrow or flashing amber arrow in the center lens) to achieve exactly the same results.


The six aspect doghouse is rare, probably not standard, but does exist in the US - in some form.  Generally, a RYG placed very close to a RA-YA-GA signal as here:

https://www.google.com/maps/@38.9846649,-77.0264621,3a,75y,168.62h,79.14t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqLzw_jxoi4mIS5lEWTqNTw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Quite common in DC as they tend to be stingy on mast arms, so there are lots of clusters on ground mounted or median mounted signals. Not a fan of the left arrow on the right sidemount signal.  It really isn't necessary as there are already two other left signal heads present.

Many years ago there was an actual custom six aspect doghouse in Beverly Hills, CA that got replaced with a more sturdy mast arm and a more normal configuration of signal heads.

The right side 4 aspect FYA signal for right turns is still not so common and is generally only utilized in specific situations.  The protected right turn (corresponding to a side street protected left) is generally still shown with a 5 aspect signal that combines straight and right functions, either tower or doghouse. 

Left sidemounts tend to replicate the left turn signal, if there is one.

There is another six-face signal in Beverly Hills that still exists. Northbound Bedford where it meets Wilshire (https://goo.gl/maps/wfTPWG4NW9RKj6pg8). (view from backside (https://goo.gl/maps/FqshY1RARnXw3R1x5))

I totally forgot about the numerous DC examples that I've seen. I will agree that, as long as there are two all-arrow signals, it's really not necessary to place another cluster on the right corner (for a left turn signal). However, for situations where there are no overhead signals at all, not even those stubby mast arms DC uses, it's probably a good idea. Good example eastbound along Constitution at 17th, NW (https://goo.gl/maps/1msM6ja2gVFNLcRf9). At this intersection, it's possible to see the state of the left and through signals on both corners, which I think is ideal in circumstances where there are cars around you that may block your view of the 'other' signal. The opposing approach has only a single left turn signal on the far left, which I do find as helpful if there are too many cars to block my view of that far corner signal; there may be too many cars to block my view of another signal on the far right, but I'd rather take my chances with two identical signals than one.

I don't expect dedicated turn signals to become less common in the future, hence my worry with regards to the loss of through signals. Here in WA, the flashing yellow right arrow has taken off, and has become fairly common in Bellevue, Federal Way (T-intersections only), Auburn, and Seattle. The middle two are heavy users of supplemental through signals on the far right, but their intersections with right-facing FYA signals do not have them (https://goo.gl/maps/Mw6QVPAoE5fMHpQC7) (although Federal Way's examples are approaching a T-intersection where through signals are not necessary).

At your Los Angeles example two posts above (Los Angeles at Temple (https://goo.gl/maps/cbu6L79FPt5Kq4xv7)), we can see the first intersection in California without any supplemental through signal. California has been widely regarded as one of the best states for signal placement. Yet here, the through signals have no better placement than standard FHWA requirements (overhead only).

Having a far corner sidemount (on the other side of the intersection, on the other side of opposing traffic) as anything other than just a dedicated turn signal is also standard in Australia and New Zealand (at least for intersections with any sort of protected left turn phase). But a near-side overhead signal, or perhaps even a signal on the far left edge of a mast arm, containing a cluster FYA signal and through signal, would help improve visibility of the through signal beyond what we can see at that Los Angeles example.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 15, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
You're right Jakeroot. That is very unusual for California not to have a thru signal on the far right corner. So maybe some modification is called for. Nevertheless I still agree with those who regard California as among the best states for signal configuration.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 15, 2020, 09:53:35 PM
You make some good points, but I don't see a solution.  On the sidemount we already have 6 aspects (3 for the right turn and 3 for the bikes), do we have room for a 9 aspect signal head?  Would that be intelligible to drivers to keep track of their signal as well?

At least the right turn arrows are not a requirement for the protected bike lane.  In parts of town that are a little more suburban (and less dense w/ respecct to pedestrians), no special right turn or bike indications are necessary.  Unfortunately, to make this work the intersections are not protected for bikes.

Here is Reseda Blvd in Northridge, technically part of LA city:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.2371891,-118.5360242,3a,75y,358.49h,88.72t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZf0yqhGnVb2BBZUdRP_Xgg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

But it seems like the other protected bike lanes in Downtown will have similar signals to those on L.A. street.  The only thing is that Spring and Main are one-way and the protected bike lanes on the one-way part are on the left, so the right sidemount signal head should still be normal at most of the intersections.

Yet the implementation of Spring Street's lane has an only in L.A. feature.  A right side bike lane will shift to the left side with lots of signal heads at the corner of 3rd.  Yes, a diagonal bike crossing in the middle of Downtown.  Only in L.A.  [some pics at the bottom of the article]

https://la.streetsblog.org/2018/10/05/eyes-on-the-street-spring-street-bike-lane-upgraded-to-parking-protected/

There are also plans for protected bike lanes on the two-way 7th street.  These have been tentatively implemented, but they have not imposed bike signals yet.



Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on September 15, 2020, 10:13:55 PM
Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/7A4XnzSne96epZXp7)
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/Cee5nUQwfEuGRvvr5)

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area (https://goo.gl/maps/EpmGximWCZNjbCzR8)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 15, 2020, 10:18:50 PM
No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 10:45:45 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 15, 2020, 10:13:55 PM
Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/7A4XnzSne96epZXp7)
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/Cee5nUQwfEuGRvvr5)

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area (https://goo.gl/maps/EpmGximWCZNjbCzR8)
They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9639742,174.90178,3a,75y,28.35h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sohdLYxgW1qwCF-J58WmCJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 10:45:45 PM
They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9639742,174.90178,3a,75y,28.35h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sohdLYxgW1qwCF-J58WmCJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.

Quote from: Revive 755 on September 15, 2020, 10:13:55 PM
Maybe a separate thread should be started for '6 aspect signals'?

There are a couple in Evanston, IL:
NB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/7A4XnzSne96epZXp7)
SB Sheridan Road at Northwestern Place (https://goo.gl/maps/Cee5nUQwfEuGRvvr5)

There were a couple in Wisconsin:  Example on SB WI 100 in the Milwaukee area (https://goo.gl/maps/EpmGximWCZNjbCzR8)

Those two in Evanston are exactly how I've pictured bike lane setups. The bike lane signal would be a totally separate face somewhere off to the side. There would be nine total faces on the corner of the intersection, but they'd be clustered logically (through and right near each other, bike signal near the bike lane, ped signal somewhere else, etc). Without a bike lane, you'd only have six signals (for pedestrian protection specifically).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 10:45:45 PM
They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9639742,174.90178,3a,75y,28.35h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sohdLYxgW1qwCF-J58WmCJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.
I mean in a single unified signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9637947,174.901832,3a,15y,177.34h,132.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s48gTkF4lhSpT2srzKH-_YQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/) rather than just two cobbled together (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8947808,-77.0268088,3a,20.2y,223.08h,93.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgkBghux8w1kmNzE_zWq3iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 11:36:34 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 11:14:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 15, 2020, 10:59:05 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 15, 2020, 10:45:45 PM
They're not really "six aspect" though; they're a pair of three-aspect signals placed right next to each other. I would say that true six-aspect signals are stuff like this (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9639742,174.90178,3a,75y,28.35h,83.35t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sohdLYxgW1qwCF-J58WmCJw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).

That's all those Australia and NZ signals are. Signals are always made up of single faces stacked one way or another. There are no "six aspect" signals.
I mean in a single unified signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@-36.9637947,174.901832,3a,15y,177.34h,132.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s48gTkF4lhSpT2srzKH-_YQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/) rather than just two cobbled together (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.8947808,-77.0268088,3a,20.2y,223.08h,93.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgkBghux8w1kmNzE_zWq3iw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en/).

They're "unified" in the sense that they are right next to each other with a single backplate. But you could achieve the same results by aligning doghouses right next to each other.

Six-aspect signals are as easy as mashing two three-aspect signal heads next to one another. Like how they have:

(https://i.imgur.com/W4li8OT.png)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on September 15, 2020, 11:44:33 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 15, 2020, 02:35:02 PM
A great example of that is in Utah:

https://blog.udot.utah.gov/2015/03/first-yellow-flashing-right-turn-arrow-arrives-in-utah/

Before:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312726,-111.889138,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sqx9y7lzsD7YkWYG17adwCQ!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

After:
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.4312835,-111.8891152,3a,75y,33.66h,85.24t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s9iL5ZWhKXBa_w0Rp1fhBzw!2e0!5s20160401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

Unfortunately, that is now gone. The entire interchange got reconstructed in order to build one-way frontage roads, so now it functions as a normal diamond interchange.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JKRhodes on September 16, 2020, 07:02:52 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 02:46:30 PM
Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't doubting that flashing yellow right-turn arrows exist; I was simply saying that I don't believe I've ever encountered one.

I realized I forgot to link an example of the ones in Tucson, Arizona.

https://goo.gl/maps/HPVJz6Fe1a6HMbzQ8

Red Ball
Yellow Ball
Green Ball
Solid Yellow Arrow
Flashing Yellow Arrow

This snap was taken during the Solid Yellow Arrow phase. Since the cross street has a lagging green left arrow, the FYA basically comes on as sort of a "leading right turn" phase for the street you're on. Gives the right turning queue some time to clear before the green ball and walk sign come on.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on September 16, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
Quote from: JKRhodes on September 16, 2020, 07:02:52 AM
Quote from: 1995hoo on September 15, 2020, 02:46:30 PM
Yeah, just in case it wasn't clear, I wasn't doubting that flashing yellow right-turn arrows exist; I was simply saying that I don't believe I've ever encountered one.

I realized I forgot to link an example of the ones in Tucson, Arizona.

https://goo.gl/maps/HPVJz6Fe1a6HMbzQ8

Red Ball
Yellow Ball
Green Ball
Solid Yellow Arrow
Flashing Yellow Arrow

This snap was taken during the Solid Yellow Arrow phase. Since the cross street has a lagging green left arrow, the FYA basically comes on as sort of a "leading right turn" phase for the street you're on. Gives the right turning queue some time to clear before the green ball and walk sign come on.

So this is interesting.  On a quick glance, I would have thought that these were 5 aspect signal heads with green arrow and yellow arrow, which are pretty common.  But you are saying that bottom aspect is a FYA, not a green arrow.  There is some benefit to that.

When a protected left is shown, in many places the corresponding right turn is also given a green arrow.  This is fine if U-turns are prohibited, but if U-turns are allowed, you may have a conflict between right turners and U-turners.  [Some states specifically disallow this - CA does not allow the right arrow in such a case unless the U-turn is prohibited, but many other states do allow it, notwithstanding the conflict.]

In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 18, 2020, 12:13:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 16, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 18, 2020, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 18, 2020, 12:13:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 16, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

There may actually be an advantage to using the flashing yellow right arrow. When approaching an intersection where the cross-street has a signalized U-turn, an all-red display for the approach road may lead drivers to look in the wrong direction when they make their right turn on red. For example: approaching the cross-street, seeing traffic from the left is stopped, and then proceeding. Not realizing that they have to yield to those making U-turns. This is perfectly logical because at most intersections, when making a right-on-red, the conflicting traffic is largely from the left (although also a green arrow for drivers turning left from the opposing road, but this is a shorter phase). Thus drivers primarily look left to determine if it's clear.

With a flashing yellow arrow facing to the right, it's clearer to drivers approaching the intersection that they need to yield to drivers making U-turns. A supplemental "yield to U-turns on flashing yellow arrow" should be posted to actually indicate the specific meaning (since it's not actually clear on its own), but it would be a signal unique to that specific phase. Compare this to an approach where all signals are red, which really just tells drivers that "some other approach has full priority right now ... figure it out if you want to turn on red". Drivers do figure it out, by and large, but often ignore those making U-turns.

As a side-note: "U-turn yield to right turn" is insane and I cannot believe it's as common as it is. I cannot think a maneuver more awkward than that. And I get to turn left on red from a two-way to a one way street here in WA!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 18, 2020, 04:14:43 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on January 23, 2018, 06:59:13 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 07, 2018, 01:08:03 PM
I am also curious how many areas are fully converted over to FYA or really close to that?
On the Missouri side of the St. Louis area the state routes are getting close to fully converted.  The local signals though are not being upgraded as fast.
Just perusing this thread and found this from 2018.
I'd say we're about 70% converted. I think that the signals installed within the past 10-20 years but still before FYAs were introduced (like this one (https://www.google.ca/maps/@38.634023,-90.4435397,3a,75y,345.04h,98.29t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sBpdBcYzUHO2cnsO-BiepGg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) will be the last to introduce.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2020, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 18, 2020, 12:13:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 16, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

There may actually be an advantage to using the flashing yellow right arrow. When approaching an intersection where the cross-street has a signalized U-turn, an all-red display for the approach road may lead drivers to look in the wrong direction when they make their right turn on red. For example: approaching the cross-street, seeing traffic from the left is stopped, and then proceeding. Not realizing that they have to yield to those making U-turns. This is perfectly logical because at most intersections, when making a right-on-red, the conflicting traffic is largely from the left (although also a green arrow for drivers turning left from the opposing road, but this is a shorter phase). Thus drivers primarily look left to determine if it's clear.

With a flashing yellow arrow facing to the right, it's clearer to drivers approaching the intersection that they need to yield to drivers making U-turns. A supplemental "yield to U-turns on flashing yellow arrow" should be posted to actually indicate the specific meaning (since it's not actually clear on its own), but it would be a signal unique to that specific phase. Compare this to an approach where all signals are red, which really just tells drivers that "some other approach has full priority right now ... figure it out if you want to turn on red". Drivers do figure it out, by and large, but often ignore those making U-turns.

As a side-note: "U-turn yield to right turn" is insane and I cannot believe it's as common as it is. I cannot think a maneuver more awkward than that. And I get to turn left on red from a two-way to a one way street here in WA!

I like your thinking here. That would be a good application.

And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on September 19, 2020, 08:02:16 PM
A green turning arrow is normally an exclusive right-of-way. Normally the signals will not clear any other movement that is in conflict with the arrow's movement. That's why (at least in theory) if you're turning with a green arrow, you don't have to yield to peds in the crosswalk, because the "don't walk" signal is still on. The ped signal won't clear until the turn arrow extinguishes.

Of course realistically we all know that peds will often cross against a "don't walk" signal, so we still have to make the turn with caution even with a green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on September 19, 2020, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on September 15, 2020, 10:18:50 PM
No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?

Depends how close the signal is to one of the many historic districts in Evanston.  Evanston does have mast arms:

Example at the recently rebuilt Emmerson Street - Green Bay Road intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/xxRpAfBVaerx38kr9)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 19, 2020, 09:59:48 PM
Quote from: Revive 755 on September 19, 2020, 09:25:04 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on September 15, 2020, 10:18:50 PM
No overhead signals in Evanston, Il.?

Depends how close the signal is to one of the many historic districts in Evanston.  Evanston does have mast arms:

Example at the recently rebuilt Emmerson Street - Green Bay Road intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/xxRpAfBVaerx38kr9)

off topic but check out this classic walk sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0519875,-87.6817445,3a,15y,100.81h,86.26t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sbFshnE55tlEt45yRg5ZkSA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en

Has the two white bars
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly! (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200920/884055b89e630a298bebb91cc06a579b.jpg)
I'll post video later


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 20, 2020, 10:21:42 PM
Spotted these FYA installs on an Ellsworth trip today from Orono. Asides from the Old Town ones I posted about a while ago, I wonder how many more will make it to Northern Maine...

(https://i.ibb.co/WkNCJSN/IMG-1361.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6m2jLm)
(https://i.ibb.co/wC93S8J/IMG-1357.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4M698Cs)

------

Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!

What does the blankout sign say?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 20, 2020, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later
Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 20, 2020, 10:43:28 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 20, 2020, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later
Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.

I think it's this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043644,-71.1460581,3a,72.5y,334.85h,87.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2K-9ALv0ZGHMAeOBwh9nlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) - Brooks Ave at Lake St in Arlington, MA:
https://www.arlingtonma.gov/home/showdocument?id=36925
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 10:11:20 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 20, 2020, 10:21:42 PM
Spotted these FYA installs on an Ellsworth trip today from Orono. Asides from the Old Town ones I posted about a while ago, I wonder how many more will make it to Northern Maine...

(https://i.ibb.co/WkNCJSN/IMG-1361.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y6m2jLm)
(https://i.ibb.co/wC93S8J/IMG-1357.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4M698Cs)

------

Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!

What does the blankout sign say?

No turn on red. I assume it'll turn on when the walk sign comes on but it doesn't. Probably hasn't been programmed yet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:44:44 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on September 20, 2020, 10:43:28 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 20, 2020, 10:33:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 20, 2020, 06:40:46 PM
My town installed and activated that FYA. The programming isn't done yet. I was happily surprised to see it was programmed correctly!
I'll post video later
Which intersection?
Cool to see the old mast arm still there for now.

I think it's this one (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4043644,-71.1460581,3a,72.5y,334.85h,87.61t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s2K-9ALv0ZGHMAeOBwh9nlQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) - Brooks Ave at Lake St in Arlington, MA:
https://www.arlingtonma.gov/home/showdocument?id=36925
Correct


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:19:41 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
I like your thinking here [with regards to right turn yield to U-turn on FYA]. That would be a good application.

Thanks! I've seen the right-facing FYA in-action in Tucson, and I thought it was pretty smart and a good halfway between the traditional "yield on red" and the awful "U-turn yield to right turn".

Quote from: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.

I guess some states take the arrow direction quite literally. Here, a green arrow facing left would allow you to depart an intersection in any direction left-of-center, including U-turns. To then say that the green arrow doesn't include ROW to make a U-turn seems rather strange when I've been taught from day one to treat green arrows as the holy grail of protected signals. Apparently not in every state!

I would think that, if U-turns were even remotely common, the whole "yield to right turners" action would create significant backups in the left turn lane. If that's the case, why even permit U-turns to begin with? I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c


iPhone

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: JKRhodes on September 21, 2020, 04:38:55 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 18, 2020, 12:52:06 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 18, 2020, 12:13:16 PM
Quote from: mrsman on September 16, 2020, 07:43:42 AM
In this application, the right turn FYA is telling drivers that they have an ALMOST free right turn - the only traffic they need to yield to are u-turners.

The only problem I see is that while FYA always seems to indicate a yield condition, it doesn't always indicate yielding to the same issue.  In some cases, it's to yield to pedestrians on your right.  In some cases its to yield to u-turners, and in other cases its to yield to opposing traffic or even side street traffic.  One key basis of safety is uniformity of meaning, and I don't beleive that is accomplished here.

When I approach a RTOR, I sometimes ask myself, who has the green.  Obviously, my reaction is different depending upon whether cross traffic or opposing protected left turns have the right of way.  I guess people have to ask themselves that same question as they approach a FYA.

Yeah, it's the same situation to process as if you were making a RTOR. Is the cross traffic going? Is there U-turn traffic happening? Are there pedestrians? You must yield to traffic lawfully in the intersection.

But I can understand the concern. There's many a case where a right turn on red is not recognizing the right of way of a U-turn legally proceeding on green arrow, so a FYA for the right could exacerbate some of that problem...

There may actually be an advantage to using the flashing yellow right arrow. When approaching an intersection where the cross-street has a signalized U-turn, an all-red display for the approach road may lead drivers to look in the wrong direction when they make their right turn on red. For example: approaching the cross-street, seeing traffic from the left is stopped, and then proceeding. Not realizing that they have to yield to those making U-turns. This is perfectly logical because at most intersections, when making a right-on-red, the conflicting traffic is largely from the left (although also a green arrow for drivers turning left from the opposing road, but this is a shorter phase). Thus drivers primarily look left to determine if it's clear.

With a flashing yellow arrow facing to the right, it's clearer to drivers approaching the intersection that they need to yield to drivers making U-turns. A supplemental "yield to U-turns on flashing yellow arrow" should be posted to actually indicate the specific meaning (since it's not actually clear on its own), but it would be a signal unique to that specific phase. Compare this to an approach where all signals are red, which really just tells drivers that "some other approach has full priority right now ... figure it out if you want to turn on red". Drivers do figure it out, by and large, but often ignore those making U-turns.

As a side-note: "U-turn yield to right turn" is insane and I cannot believe it's as common as it is. I cannot think a maneuver more awkward than that. And I get to turn left on red from a two-way to a one way street here in WA!

I like your thinking here. That would be a good application.

And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.

https://goo.gl/maps/hBEGzFyxxMQic92P8

This intersection in Tucson had "U-turn yield to right turn" for several years following its reconstruction around 2002. Unfortunately I don't have any pictures of the old setup, and it was well before the advent of Google Street View.

It's technically  located inside an unincorporated Pima County island. Pima County's road design guidelines didn't allow for the right turn FYA that Tucson uses at its eastside intersections. I believe ADOT had some input in the design process for this intersection as well.

The signage has changed somewhat regularly over the years. In its current state, U-turns and RTOR are both prohibited. 2013 street view shows an LED illuminated no-right-turn sign, and a Pima county sheriff's deputy posted on the corner in a Crown Vic doing traffic enforcement.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c


iPhone

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?
Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?

Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.

So the first to use partially-protected-only phasing? Or the first to actually use a red arrow? Since all the FYA signals around here utilize a red arrow on the top. Apart from a few in a couple select locations.

I've been waiting for someone to implement an FYA at a split-phased intersection. I've only seen it done once, at this intersection (https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4), and it's only barely related to the setup in your video.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?

Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.

So the first to use partially-protected-only phasing? Or the first to actually use a red arrow? Since all the FYA signals around here utilize a red arrow on the top. Apart from a few in a couple select locations.

I've been waiting for someone to implement an FYA at a split-phased intersection. I've only seen it done once, at this intersection (https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4), and it's only barely related to the setup in your video.


1. The first to use partially protected only phasing. Most lights in MA utilize a red arrow but no protected phasing at all.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on September 21, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:19:41 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
I like your thinking here [with regards to right turn yield to U-turn on FYA]. That would be a good application.

Thanks! I've seen the right-facing FYA in-action in Tucson, and I thought it was pretty smart and a good halfway between the traditional "yield on red" and the awful "U-turn yield to right turn".

Quote from: roadfro on September 19, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
And I agree, "U-turn yield to right turn" is ridiculous, especially when the left/U turn traffic is on a green arrow. Never seen it in real life (only in mentions on this forum) and hope I never do.

I guess some states take the arrow direction quite literally. Here, a green arrow facing left would allow you to depart an intersection in any direction left-of-center, including U-turns. To then say that the green arrow doesn't include ROW to make a U-turn seems rather strange when I've been taught from day one to treat green arrows as the holy grail of protected signals. Apparently not in every state!

I would think that, if U-turns were even remotely common, the whole "yield to right turners" action would create significant backups in the left turn lane. If that's the case, why even permit U-turns to begin with? I don't get it, man. I don't get it.
Florida is another U turn yield to right turn state. In practice, it doesn't seem to ever cause any sort of backups in the left turn lane. One big aspect of that is there is usually plenty of room for one car to queue while U turning without blocking the left turns. Also usually right turn traffic is light enough to allow easy, quick yielding, as the right turn green arrow was preceded by a green ball, so there is usually no queue you're waiting for. If there's ever heavy left turn on right turn traffic, they seem pretty quick to stick up a no U turn sign since U turns always take a little longer then a basic left turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on September 21, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
OK Kentucky this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2505152,-85.6257173,3a,31.3y,109.59h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ4Egswtmp6HoM_PXno0SLg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US/) is not the place for a permissive-only FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM
1. The first to use partially protected only phasing. Most lights in MA utilize a red arrow but no protected phasing at all.

Very nice. It's quite common in WA now.

Quote from: UCFKnights on September 21, 2020, 10:18:42 PM
Florida is another U turn yield to right turn state. In practice, it doesn't seem to ever cause any sort of backups in the left turn lane. One big aspect of that is there is usually plenty of room for one car to queue while U turning without blocking the left turns. Also usually right turn traffic is light enough to allow easy, quick yielding, as the right turn green arrow was preceded by a green ball, so there is usually no queue you're waiting for. If there's ever heavy left turn on right turn traffic, they seem pretty quick to stick up a no U turn sign since U turns always take a little longer then a basic left turn.

Most of the time I've seen the sign, U-turns are very light. This is in stark contrast to signed U-turns in my area (usually along corridors with medians), where there is an exorbitant number of people doing U-turns so often that they could not possibly ban the maneuver, nor install a "yield to right turners" sign without seeing serious issues with left-turn lane congestion (with too many people waiting to U-turn).

Quote from: STLmapboy on September 21, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
OK Kentucky this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2505152,-85.6257173,3a,31.3y,109.59h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ4Egswtmp6HoM_PXno0SLg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US/) is not the place for a permissive-only FYA.

I'm not sure I see an issue. Only a couple lanes; I don't think there's too much oncoming traffic; and there's plenty of room to stop past the stop line to allow someone to finish a turn on red, if no gap develops.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on September 25, 2020, 05:12:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 21, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
OK Kentucky this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2505152,-85.6257173,3a,31.3y,109.59h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ4Egswtmp6HoM_PXno0SLg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US/) is not the place for a permissive-only FYA.

I'm not sure I see an issue. Only a couple lanes; I don't think there's too much oncoming traffic; and there's plenty of room to stop past the stop line to allow someone to finish a turn on red, if no gap develops.

I agree with Jake, not seeing a big deal here. Yeah, there's three opposing lanes, but that is not inherently dangerous. The 'almost' positive offset left turn lane aids in visibility and should make the permitted left easier here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on September 25, 2020, 08:31:49 PM
Quote from: roadfro on September 25, 2020, 05:12:24 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 11:54:17 PM
Quote from: STLmapboy on September 21, 2020, 10:39:08 PM
OK Kentucky this (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.2505152,-85.6257173,3a,31.3y,109.59h,91.51t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZ4Egswtmp6HoM_PXno0SLg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en-US/) is not the place for a permissive-only FYA.

I'm not sure I see an issue. Only a couple lanes; I don't think there's too much oncoming traffic; and there's plenty of room to stop past the stop line to allow someone to finish a turn on red, if no gap develops.

I agree with Jake, not seeing a big deal here. Yeah, there's three opposing lanes, but that is not inherently dangerous. The 'almost' positive offset left turn lane aids in visibility and should make the permitted left easier here.

Definitely! And I think with the double left turn being pushed back a bit from the intersection, that also helps improve visibility for the permissive left.

As far as permissive left turns go, this is a very well designed example.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on October 11, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?

Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.

So the first to use partially-protected-only phasing? Or the first to actually use a red arrow? Since all the FYA signals around here utilize a red arrow on the top. Apart from a few in a couple select locations.

I've been waiting for someone to implement an FYA at a split-phased intersection. I've only seen it done once, at this intersection (https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4), and it's only barely related to the setup in your video.


1. The first to use partially protected only phasing. Most lights in MA utilize a red arrow but no protected phasing at all.
Yesterday, I noticed a strange issue with this light as I had to pass thru it when I went to go see a friend around that area. Take note that all approaches at this intersection are single lane.

I needed to make a left turn onto Lake... however the FYA showed a red arrow. Thinking that this was strange and maybe I didn't arrive on time... I waited another cycle. Same thing on the second and third cycles.

At the 4th cycle, I just ended up going straight, then using Orvis Rd to make a U-turn to make that intended turn onto Lake.

Is it possible that this signal isn't fully programmed correctly? I thought FYA's were not allowed to be used on single lane approches...

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on October 13, 2020, 08:19:20 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on October 11, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?

Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.

So the first to use partially-protected-only phasing? Or the first to actually use a red arrow? Since all the FYA signals around here utilize a red arrow on the top. Apart from a few in a couple select locations.

I've been waiting for someone to implement an FYA at a split-phased intersection. I've only seen it done once, at this intersection (https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4), and it's only barely related to the setup in your video.


1. The first to use partially protected only phasing. Most lights in MA utilize a red arrow but no protected phasing at all.
Yesterday, I noticed a strange issue with this light as I had to pass thru it when I went to go see a friend around that area. Take note that all approaches at this intersection are single lane.

I needed to make a left turn onto Lake... however the FYA showed a red arrow. Thinking that this was strange and maybe I didn't arrive on time... I waited another cycle. Same thing on the second and third cycles.

At the 4th cycle, I just ended up going straight, then using Orvis Rd to make a U-turn to make that intended turn onto Lake.

Is it possible that this signal isn't fully programmed correctly? I thought FYA's were not allowed to be used on single lane approches...



What in the heck? I knew it would be a TOD signal but this is bad.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on October 13, 2020, 08:24:33 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on October 11, 2020, 11:30:36 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 08:54:33 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 07:44:45 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 06:37:37 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 21, 2020, 04:20:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on September 21, 2020, 11:49:31 AM
I uploaded a YT video showing the light: https://youtu.be/qz1hdXpjB-c

I'm really confused. Is that approach split-phased, with one approach allowing left turns on FYA when the other direction has a green?

Yes. The side street here remains a split phase with one side allowing yielding for left turns when the other side is green. This was the exact phasing at the old signal (minus the left turn being able to yield due to the lack of any left turn signal). This is only temporary as the signal is soon to be timed with the new bike path signal. That will make this signal the first FYA signal in MA to use red arrows.

So the first to use partially-protected-only phasing? Or the first to actually use a red arrow? Since all the FYA signals around here utilize a red arrow on the top. Apart from a few in a couple select locations.

I've been waiting for someone to implement an FYA at a split-phased intersection. I've only seen it done once, at this intersection (https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4), and it's only barely related to the setup in your video.


1. The first to use partially protected only phasing. Most lights in MA utilize a red arrow but no protected phasing at all.
Yesterday, I noticed a strange issue with this light as I had to pass thru it when I went to go see a friend around that area. Take note that all approaches at this intersection are single lane.

I needed to make a left turn onto Lake... however the FYA showed a red arrow. Thinking that this was strange and maybe I didn't arrive on time... I waited another cycle. Same thing on the second and third cycles.

At the 4th cycle, I just ended up going straight, then using Orvis Rd to make a U-turn to make that intended turn onto Lake.

Is it possible that this signal isn't fully programmed correctly? I thought FYA's were not allowed to be used on single lane approches...



Here's a video I took of it on 10/1.
https://youtu.be/y_FCVt06kfQ
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 13, 2020, 02:56:24 PM
That is a very unusual situation. I don't really know what to make of it. fwydriver405's video definitely shows it malfunctioning. I personally would have just turned left on the second cycle; your dashcam clearly shows it as broken, and this could be used as evidence if for some reason you got a ticket. I've blown through numerous red arrows, even when they were functioning correctly, as I was just impatient. I wouldn't think twice about ignoring that one.

If an FYA signal is going to be used for an option-lane approach (sort of verboten but there is precedence), it certainly should not use any protected-only phasing (be it TOD or for pedestrian protection). Green arrows should be used at the beginning, to avoid yellow trap for the opposing left turn (assuming the alternative was a lagging green arrow, and the other approach does not have an FYA signal), but the phase should not include the interim red arrow (instead: green arrow > solid yellow arrow > flashing yellow arrow > solid yellow arrow > all red). This would avoid any sort of 'red arrow + green ball' situation with an option lane, which should really be the goal here.

For the approach in the video, I'd recommend the 5-section FYA signal, with combined FYA and green ball displays. This would allow the FYA to be used even when the main display was red, but no red arrow would be possible, avoiding any issues like those seen in the video.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on October 15, 2020, 09:58:18 PM
Amtrakprod, when you said the signal runs on TOD phasing, did you say it was TOD phasing because it changes between permissive only and protected/permissive? I am only making that hypothesis based on the signal plans.

---

As for that signal phasing, I showed the video to a signal tech in my area, and he believes either dual entry isn't enabled for my approch, or the detector isn't calling the correct phases:

QuoteIt is likely it is phased correctly, however dual entry is not enabled for the approach you were on and the opposing. As such the opposing light had a red display and the FYA overlap is tied to the opposing green indication.

Otherwise, based on the plans there should be a Phase 7 and it doesn't look like the detector is calling up that phase, else you would get the green (or flashing yellow) arrow.

I have a second video somewhere showing that the FYA does flash yellow when that approach gets a call, although either the driver on that same approch overshot the stop line, and/or the left turning driver from WB Lake to NB Brooks turned into the oncoming lane briefly, triggering the oncoming Brook St approch to allow the FYA to flash.

The controller isn't consistent on what phasing it wants to initate... sometimes in similar scenarios it goes to permissive only for both directions, sometimes single leading left then permissive, or the red arrow situation mentioned above.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on October 16, 2020, 11:42:29 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on October 15, 2020, 09:58:18 PM
Amtrakprod, when you said the signal runs on TOD phasing, did you say it was TOD phasing because it changes between permissive only and protected/permissive? I am only making that hypothesis based on the signal plans.

---

As for that signal phasing, I showed the video to a signal tech in my area, and he believes either dual entry isn't enabled for my approch, or the detector isn't calling the correct phases:

QuoteIt is likely it is phased correctly, however dual entry is not enabled for the approach you were on and the opposing. As such the opposing light had a red display and the FYA overlap is tied to the opposing green indication.

Otherwise, based on the plans there should be a Phase 7 and it doesn't look like the detector is calling up that phase, else you would get the green (or flashing yellow) arrow.

I have a second video somewhere showing that the FYA does flash yellow when that approach gets a call, although either the driver on that same approch overshot the stop line, and/or the left turning driver from WB Lake to NB Brooks turned into the oncoming lane briefly, triggering the oncoming Brook St approch to allow the FYA to flash.

The controller isn't consistent on what phasing it wants to initate... sometimes in similar scenarios it goes to permissive only for both directions, sometimes single leading left then permissive, or the red arrow situation mentioned above.
Wait what? Can I see the other video? Something weird is going on there. The bike way signal also hasn't been activated, once that is (hopefully soon) it will be better


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on October 27, 2020, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
I can see some of what you're saying here.

The realities of signal controller programming doesn't make a distinction though. There's typically only one setting per phase  for duration of yellow & red clearance intervals, so whether it follows a green or flashing yellow is typically irrelevant.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 11:31:13 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 27, 2020, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.

I can see some of what you're saying here.

The realities of signal controller programming doesn't make a distinction though. There's typically only one setting per phase  for duration of yellow & red clearance intervals, so whether it follows a green or flashing yellow is typically irrelevant.

That's pretty unfortunate, and what I was afraid of.

Based on this, it would seem that the solid yellow phase for the FYA signal should to be identical to the solid yellow phase for the through signal. At the end of the day, I doubt the 85th percentile speeds are different enough that the FYA signal even needs its own unique solid yellow phase length separate from that of the through traffic.

The biggest benefit to me would be at intersections where there are red light cameras. If the left turn FYA signal had a different yellow and red clearance interval, traffic turning left could, theoretically, be issued a ticket for entering on red at the same time as someone going straight, who possibly entered on yellow and therefore did not break the law and would not be issued a ticket. In reality, I suspect intersections with red light cameras are programmed correctly with the left turn FYA signal's solid yellow phase identical to that of the through traffic, but it would be far more desirable for this to be the case at all intersections, and not just those where a driver's wallet is at jeopardy.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on October 28, 2020, 10:53:42 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 27, 2020, 11:31:13 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 27, 2020, 10:34:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.

I can see some of what you're saying here.

The realities of signal controller programming doesn't make a distinction though. There's typically only one setting per phase  for duration of yellow & red clearance intervals, so whether it follows a green or flashing yellow is typically irrelevant.

That's pretty unfortunate, and what I was afraid of.

Based on this, it would seem that the solid yellow phase for the FYA signal should to be identical to the solid yellow phase for the through signal. At the end of the day, I doubt the 85th percentile speeds are different enough that the FYA signal even needs its own unique solid yellow phase length separate from that of the through traffic.

The biggest benefit to me would be at intersections where there are red light cameras. If the left turn FYA signal had a different yellow and red clearance interval, traffic turning left could, theoretically, be issued a ticket for entering on red at the same time as someone going straight, who possibly entered on yellow and therefore did not break the law and would not be issued a ticket. In reality, I suspect intersections with red light cameras are programmed correctly with the left turn FYA signal's solid yellow phase identical to that of the through traffic, but it would be far more desirable for this to be the case at all intersections, and not just those where a driver's wallet is at jeopardy.

Is it true that the 85th percentile speeds set a MINIMUM length for the yellow signal instead of a maximum.  If that is the case, then there should be no reason why the yellow arrow can't be set to a greater length - to match the time of the solid yellow.

Another problem I see is that most of the FYA signals are designed from the perspective of allowing a permissive turn.  This means that to avoid a yellow trap, the indications on the FYA 4 aspect signal should match the signal for opposing thru traffic.  FYA while opposing signal has green, yellow arrow while opposing signal has yellow, and red arrow while opposing signal has red.  THe time for the yellow arrow has to match what the opposing signal is doing. 

Worse, an uneven setup may cause people to watch the adjacent signal -which would be dangerous.  The whole point of FYA is that we are training drivers to ignore the adjacent signal and only focus on the FYA signal - since that is the only signal relevant to them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 28, 2020, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: mrsman on October 28, 2020, 10:53:42 AM
Is it true that the 85th percentile speeds set a MINIMUM length for the yellow signal instead of a maximum.  If that is the case, then there should be no reason why the yellow arrow can't be set to a greater length - to match the time of the solid yellow.

Another problem I see is that most of the FYA signals are designed from the perspective of allowing a permissive turn.  This means that to avoid a yellow trap, the indications on the FYA 4 aspect signal should match the signal for opposing thru traffic.  FYA while opposing signal has green, yellow arrow while opposing signal has yellow, and red arrow while opposing signal has red.  THe time for the yellow arrow has to match what the opposing signal is doing

Worse, an uneven setup may cause people to watch the adjacent signal -which would be dangerous.  The whole point of FYA is that we are training drivers to ignore the adjacent signal and only focus on the FYA signal - since that is the only signal relevant to them.

The bolded bit seems to be the essence of it all.

Unfortunately, there's not much evidence that it's an actual requirement. It seems totally logical: right turn 'overlap' signals are timed perfectly with left turn green arrows; why not the same for FYA signals with opposing traffic? The only strict requirement seems to be that the yellow + red clearance interval begins at the same time; whether they end at the same time is apparently not a requirement. Or (possibly), it is a requirement, and most agencies think they've programmed it correctly, but actually haven't.

I think most agencies get the idea, since most left turn FYA signals that I see are timed correctly to end with through traffic, but these agencies may simply be going the extra mile by programming a yellow phase that lasts longer than strictly necessary for that lane, but which is actually true and proper as it aligns correctly with oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on October 28, 2020, 11:00:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
Since we're talking about a small fraction of a second I don't think there is any real issue (you have to be prepared for red light runners in the first second no matter what when completing a permissive turn), but I'd say technically, it might make more sense to have the FYA phase end a second later then the opposing thru phase to discourage them from completing the turn too early during the possibility of the said red light runner. Never seen one programmed that way though
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on October 29, 2020, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on October 28, 2020, 11:00:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
Since we're talking about a small fraction of a second I don't think there is any real issue (you have to be prepared for red light runners in the first second no matter what when completing a permissive turn), but I'd say technically, it might make more sense to have the FYA phase end a second later then the opposing thru phase to discourage them from completing the turn too early during the possibility of the said red light runner. Never seen one programmed that way though

And they really wouldn't be.  The goal is (or should be) matching the opposing thru signal.  Seeing a solid yellow arrow would be teh equivalent of seeing a yellow orb that warns you that the green phase is about to end and the red phase is about to begin.  If the yellow starts too late, there may not be enough warning time that the red phase is about to start.

If all of this argument is about fractions of a second, then it probably is not a big deal, anyway.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 30, 2020, 01:18:30 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 29, 2020, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on October 28, 2020, 11:00:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
Since we're talking about a small fraction of a second I don't think there is any real issue (you have to be prepared for red light runners in the first second no matter what when completing a permissive turn), but I'd say technically, it might make more sense to have the FYA phase end a second later then the opposing thru phase to discourage them from completing the turn too early during the possibility of the said red light runner. Never seen one programmed that way though

And they really wouldn't be.  The goal is (or should be) matching the opposing thru signal.  Seeing a solid yellow arrow would be teh equivalent of seeing a yellow orb that warns you that the green phase is about to end and the red phase is about to begin.  If the yellow starts too late, there may not be enough warning time that the red phase is about to start.

If all of this argument is about fractions of a second, then it probably is not a big deal, anyway.

The yellow time should absolutely be timed to the exact length of the through signal's yellow phase. The FYA is intrinsically tied to the state of oncoming traffic. To then allow different yellow times misses the point: it needs to echo 100% the state of the oncoming signal, including responding down to [ideally] the millisecond when there is a phase change.

Realistically, yeah, a quarter second doesn't mean much. But it shouldn't be allowed simply on principle.

The 85th percentile speeds for the approach to a left turn whose lane likely begins only a few hundred feet earlier seems completely irrelevant, for the record. Just use the yellow times for the through signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on October 30, 2020, 10:37:07 AM
Quote from: mrsman on October 29, 2020, 08:15:23 AM
Quote from: UCFKnights on October 28, 2020, 11:00:50 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 09:22:04 PM
Quote from: roadfro on October 25, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 25, 2020, 12:31:28 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on October 24, 2020, 11:41:51 PM
https://youtu.be/n1UobIzy7WE

This practice is actually quite common at left turn FYA signals in my area. The yellow for the FYA seems to last about a quarter second less than the through traffic. I assume it's an error since it should end simultaneous with through traffic, but it's a common error nonetheless.

I see around Reno all the time where the left yellow arrow and the through circular yellow don't terminate together. I thought it was weird when I first saw it, as my frame of reference was the Vegas area where the yellows do tend to terminate simultaneously. It can be weird if you're not used to it, but it's not necessarily an error. And I don't believe there is anything in the MUTCD that mandates the yellows terminate simultaneously.

Many jurisdictions follow the Institute of Traffic Engineers various formulas for signal phasing and indications. The ITE formula for the duration of a yellow clearance interval is a function of the 85th percentile speed (among other factors). I think some agencies use a slower turning speed for left turn movements than the speed limit of adjacent through movements, which may result in the difference in yellow intervals.

One possible issue may be with programming, and the possibility that most are set so that the solid yellow phase lasts the same time no matter if the solid yellow is after a green arrow (where 85th percentile speeds are relevant) or after a flashing yellow arrow (where the importance is more on 'make sure left turning traffic doesn't turn into oncoming traffic'). It would be appropriate to have a shorter yellow phase after the protected green phase, but not after the flashing yellow arrow phase. In my opinion, since left turn FYA signals are necessarily tied to through traffic, the solid yellow really should be tied to the through signals since, assuming the phase in question is after the permissive phase and when both through traffic and left turning traffic are about to face a red signal, traffic turning left must be certain that it is safe to finish their turn. The chance of an issue arising seems slim (probably is slim), but the potential is there.
Since we're talking about a small fraction of a second I don't think there is any real issue (you have to be prepared for red light runners in the first second no matter what when completing a permissive turn), but I'd say technically, it might make more sense to have the FYA phase end a second later then the opposing thru phase to discourage them from completing the turn too early during the possibility of the said red light runner. Never seen one programmed that way though

And they really wouldn't be.  The goal is (or should be) matching the opposing thru signal.  Seeing a solid yellow arrow would be teh equivalent of seeing a yellow orb that warns you that the green phase is about to end and the red phase is about to begin.  If the yellow starts too late, there may not be enough warning time that the red phase is about to start.

If all of this argument is about fractions of a second, then it probably is not a big deal, anyway.
Yes, I'm not saying reduce the yellow phase beyond the normal amount, but the FYA and the related yellow arrow could terminate a second after the opposing thru signal, allowing left turn traffic to clear with less concern of a conflicting red light runner. Much like how many areas have implemented LPIs instead of making sure that the green and walk signal come on at the exact same time. Adding a second or 2 there can increase safety
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on November 03, 2020, 12:39:58 PM
Already posted about this (https://www.google.com/maps/@32.0352559,-102.0590104,3a,37.8y,76.64h,92.95t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1soIdl0e_PWKMEbVNYVkTqtg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192/) in traffic signals, but it pertains to this thread too.

I found an interesting FYA setup in Midland, TX, on a fairly recent signal. There's a 3-section permissive only left turn FYA (with the red signal being a ball) and a five-section signal with a sign that says "thru proceed on flashing yellow." The signal setup is fairly new (I'd say 2016 or so). How would this work?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on November 04, 2020, 05:50:55 PM
I wasn't sure if I should post this to this thread or the "double permissive left" thread but there are intersections in Cary and Clayton NC that will use variable lane use control for a double left turn lane... Protected only during rush hour with two left turning lanes, and PPLT all other times with only single left-turn lane.

Any similar installs anywhere else? Plenty of double turning lanes near my area that don't really need to have Protected only phasing and both LT lanes during the off-peak...

https://abc11.com/dynamic-left-turn-cary-clayton-traffic/5918367/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 04, 2020, 06:33:36 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 04, 2020, 05:50:55 PM
I wasn't sure if I should post this to this thread or the "double permissive left" thread but there are intersections in Cary and Clayton NC that will use variable lane use control for a double left turn lane... Protected only during rush hour with two left turning lanes, and PPLT all other times with only single left-turn lane.

Any similar installs anywhere else? Plenty of double turning lanes near my area that don't really need to have Protected only phasing and both LT lanes during the off-peak...

https://abc11.com/dynamic-left-turn-cary-clayton-traffic/5918367/

I believe there's been a couple other installs elsewhere in North Carolina.

Couple problems that I've noticed:

(1) to avoid blanking out an entire signal, only one signal is used, even when both turn lanes are operational. This is not desirable for a double left turn. An extra FYA signal should be mounted on the far left corner of the intersection (either on an existing mast or a separate pole) to account for this.

(2) (the bigger one) there is very high levels of ignorance with regard to the operation of the closed lane. Chiefly, drivers using both lanes during off-peak hours when the FYA is active.

I would prefer that the left turn were designed to allow protected/permissive operation throughout the day with both lanes operational 24/7, with protected-only phasing perhaps during peak hours. It would be far less confusing for drivers.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on November 05, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2020, 06:33:36 PM
I believe there's been a couple other installs elsewhere in North Carolina.

Couple problems that I've noticed:

(1) to avoid blanking out an entire signal, only one signal is used, even when both turn lanes are operational. This is not desirable for a double left turn. An extra FYA signal should be mounted on the far left to account for this.

When you say that, do you mean the 2nd FYA signal should be post mounted to the left, like this (https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Lakes+Dr+%26+Thousand+Oaks+Blvd,+Thousand+Oaks,+CA+91362,+USA/@34.1751311,-118.8468787,3a,35.3y,305.54h,90.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sacIkF4uPtCy6iIvLnzRKeg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DacIkF4uPtCy6iIvLnzRKeg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D360%26h%3D120%26yaw%3D293.55707%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x80e8253a1403cb0f:0x473a3a15acb83a23!8m2!3d34.1751654!4d-118.8469356), similar to what CA does?

Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2020, 06:33:36 PM
(2) (the bigger one) there is very high levels of ignorance with regard to the operation of the closed lane. Chiefly, drivers using both lanes during off-peak hours when the FYA is active.

Yeah that's what I thought... the lane configuration might confuse some drivers who are used to using both lanes to turn left... at this point, I would have evaluated having a double permissive left w/TOD phasing instead of this solution. I'm guessing they chose to operate the single permissive left like if the turn lane had positive offset...

Would you have to change the striping to make the configuration less confusing? In my view that just seems to add more "hoops" than if they were to use TOD double permissive left...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on November 05, 2020, 05:59:05 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 05, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
When you say that, do you mean the 2nd FYA signal should be post mounted to the left, like this (https://www.google.com/maps/place/The+Lakes+Dr+%26+Thousand+Oaks+Blvd,+Thousand+Oaks,+CA+91362,+USA/@34.1751311,-118.8468787,3a,35.3y,305.54h,90.16t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sacIkF4uPtCy6iIvLnzRKeg!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo2.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3DacIkF4uPtCy6iIvLnzRKeg%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dsearch.gws-prod.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D360%26h%3D120%26yaw%3D293.55707%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x80e8253a1403cb0f:0x473a3a15acb83a23!8m2!3d34.1751654!4d-118.8469356), similar to what CA does?

Exactly what I meant, yes. The second signal has two purposes: provides two left turn signals, which should be a minimum for a double left turn, but also allows the signal to operate in single-lane mode without two overhead signals confusing drivers into thinking both left turn lanes are active. I edited my post above to clarify this.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on November 05, 2020, 03:12:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on November 04, 2020, 06:33:36 PM
(2) (the bigger one) there is very high levels of ignorance with regard to the operation of the closed lane. Chiefly, drivers using both lanes during off-peak hours when the FYA is active.

Yeah that's what I thought... the lane configuration might confuse some drivers who are used to using both lanes to turn left... at this point, I would have evaluated having a double permissive left w/TOD phasing instead of this solution. I'm guessing they chose to operate the single permissive left like if the turn lane had positive offset...

Would you have to change the striping to make the configuration less confusing? In my view that just seems to add more "hoops" than if they were to use TOD double permissive left...

I find most jurisdictions are very cautious with using double permissive left turns, even if there is ample opportunity to design the intersection for maximum visibility. The cities that use it here in WA have a design policy where the oncoming left turn is offset to improve visibility.

Still, given that NC's project here certainly required some research and outreach, they could have taken the time to at least consider the benefits of a properly-designed double permissive FYA setup. After all, I'm already seeing a lot of drivers using that second lane during the permissive phase, and it doesn't seem like crashes are occurring. But they are breaking the law, which is perhaps unfair to drivers who are rightfully confused by the setup, and who are otherwise turning safely and following the FYA signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on December 20, 2020, 10:48:36 PM
I don't know if I'm late to the party here, but IDOT District 5 has these new FYA's along IL-1 just south of I-74 (Danville area).  Also, what is up with these backplates?--

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50742636712_61ddc4ee1f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2kiXh3L)
IL-YT (https://flic.kr/p/2kiXh3L) by Paul Drives (https://www.flickr.com/photos/138603251@N02/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on December 20, 2020, 11:10:35 PM
What in gods name are those back plates


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on December 21, 2020, 09:24:05 AM
I can't even come up with a name for those backplates.. I've never seen anything like that. I'm wondering if they were designed like that for wind resistance or something? And are they reflective?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on December 21, 2020, 10:12:26 AM
It seems to defeat one of the main purposes of backplates, namely blocking out the sun so that you can clearly see the signal.  I don't understand it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on December 21, 2020, 10:43:10 PM
It's a further evolution of the backplates with large slots found in Lincoln, IL? (https://goo.gl/maps/w9dXyX9tM6RCNdzZ9)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on December 21, 2020, 11:01:03 PM
Notice how the backplate on the center head is partly broken away? Eventually the rest of it will fall away too. Happens all the time on Long Island with NYS DOT's signals. Eventually most of them disappear.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on December 22, 2020, 09:14:33 PM
I imagine those large gaps will not help the durability of those backplates  :rolleyes:

Illinois really is...cutting around the edges.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NoGoodNamesAvailable on December 22, 2020, 10:22:21 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on December 21, 2020, 11:01:03 PM
Notice how the backplate on the center head is partly broken away? Eventually the rest of it will fall away too. Happens all the time on Long Island with NYS DOT's signals. Eventually most of them disappear.

I have noticed this in region 8 as well. NYSDOT's mast arm installations look very shoddy in general... I saw that they were increasing the thickness of the backplates in the new specifications, hopefully that fixes the issue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:

That is very interesting.

Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

The catch is that right-facing FYA signals are sometimes used in ways that make those turning right yield to everyone else, including those from the left. I've only seen this setup at slip lanes, personally. At any rate, this seems to work fine as most drivers can work out that they have to yield to everyone in these situations (although a supplementary "yield to all traffic on [fya]" sign would be helpful), but at a regular four-way intersection, this isn't how it works.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on December 31, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:

That is very interesting.

Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

The catch is that right-facing FYA signals are sometimes used in ways that make those turning right yield to everyone else, including those from the left. I've only seen this setup at slip lanes, personally. At any rate, this seems to work fine as most drivers can work out that they have to yield to everyone in these situations (although a supplementary "yield to all traffic on [fya]" sign would be helpful), but at a regular four-way intersection, this isn't how it works.

The FYA could have multiple meanings.  It generally means a turn requiring a yield, but the big question is yielding to whom.  I agree with jakeroot that in this circumstance it would be far better to terminate the FYA so as to avoid conflict with opposing lefts.  i agree that in this circumstance (and in most cases utilizing the FYA for rights) the FYA can lead drivers to mean that they have a protected turn with respect to traffic, but they need to yield to pedestrians.  It is not wise to change the meaning of the same signal indication within the same intersection.

Given that the change from green orb to yellow orb to all red to cross street green arrow is a short amount of time - there is no real problem to terminate the FYA to red before allowing the green arrow to corresponde with the cross street left.  It is the safest course of action.

So I would say in a standard intersection, with right turns controlled with a 4 aspect signal with FYA, that the FYA is used at the same time as green orb to warn of the need to yield to parallel pedestrians.  With the yellow orb, a solid yellow arrow.  A brief all red and then a right green arrow during the cross traffic left.  A yellow arrow corresponding with the cross street left yellow.  And when cross traffic is released, a flashing red arrow to denote the need to stop and yield to traffic on the left.  Since it is a separare indication, drivers are aware to watch for something different than during the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on January 01, 2021, 08:12:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on December 31, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:

That is very interesting.

Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

The catch is that right-facing FYA signals are sometimes used in ways that make those turning right yield to everyone else, including those from the left. I've only seen this setup at slip lanes, personally. At any rate, this seems to work fine as most drivers can work out that they have to yield to everyone in these situations (although a supplementary "yield to all traffic on [fya]" sign would be helpful), but at a regular four-way intersection, this isn't how it works.

The FYA could have multiple meanings.  It generally means a turn requiring a yield, but the big question is yielding to whom.  I agree with jakeroot that in this circumstance it would be far better to terminate the FYA so as to avoid conflict with opposing lefts.  i agree that in this circumstance (and in most cases utilizing the FYA for rights) the FYA can lead drivers to mean that they have a protected turn with respect to traffic, but they need to yield to pedestrians.  It is not wise to change the meaning of the same signal indication within the same intersection.

Given that the change from green orb to yellow orb to all red to cross street green arrow is a short amount of time - there is no real problem to terminate the FYA to red before allowing the green arrow to corresponde with the cross street left.  It is the safest course of action.

So I would say in a standard intersection, with right turns controlled with a 4 aspect signal with FYA, that the FYA is used at the same time as green orb to warn of the need to yield to parallel pedestrians.  With the yellow orb, a solid yellow arrow.  A brief all red and then a right green arrow during the cross traffic left.  A yellow arrow corresponding with the cross street left yellow.  And when cross traffic is released, a flashing red arrow to denote the need to stop and yield to traffic on the left.  Since it is a separare indication, drivers are aware to watch for something different than during the FYA.
The pedestrian phase should be ending at the same time as well for the very same reason, to avoid yellow trap.

FYA, like all flashing yellow traffic signals, always has a single identical meaning: Use caution. This movement is uncontrolled at this time, follow normal traffic rules. If you removed the traffic signal entirely, it should make no difference to any yielding requirements.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on January 01, 2021, 10:14:31 AM
^^^^^^

I agree.  Even though the MUTCD does allow for other options, IMO FDW must end prior to yellow ball so that we don't have a yellow trap problem for peds. 

While I also agree that the flashing yellow strictly means caution, its use at intersections will dictate how it is perceived by other drivers.  For left turns on 2 way streets, it is almost universally used to denote a caution condition for permissive lefts, to yield to opposing traffic, independent of what parallel same direction traffic is doing.

In a similar way, in the intersection we've been discussing, the concern is that the FYA is only warning of the pedestrian yield condition, not the vehicle yield condition.   Since the delay is not great, it seems to meet that concern, it would be wise to terminate the FYA signal during the yellow orb phase so that there is time for the left turns to go.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on January 02, 2021, 09:34:16 AM
Quote from: mrsman on January 01, 2021, 10:14:31 AM
^^^^^^

I agree.  Even though the MUTCD does allow for other options, IMO FDW must end prior to yellow ball so that we don't have a yellow trap problem for peds. 

While I also agree that the flashing yellow strictly means caution, its use at intersections will dictate how it is perceived by other drivers.  For left turns on 2 way streets, it is almost universally used to denote a caution condition for permissive lefts, to yield to opposing traffic, independent of what parallel same direction traffic is doing.

In a similar way, in the intersection we've been discussing, the concern is that the FYA is only warning of the pedestrian yield condition, not the vehicle yield condition.   Since the delay is not great, it seems to meet that concern, it would be wise to terminate the FYA signal during the yellow orb phase so that there is time for the left turns to go.
I just think its important to stop associating the FYA with meaning yield since... it doesn't mean that. Vehicles turning right have the right of way to complete their turn before those making a left onto the same street. Thats precisely why this signal setup is an issue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 02, 2021, 12:10:28 PM
Quote from: UCFKnights on January 02, 2021, 09:34:16 AM
I just think its important to stop associating the FYA with meaning yield since... it doesn't mean that. Vehicles turning right have the right of way to complete their turn before those making a left onto the same street. Thats precisely why this signal setup is an issue.

Vehicles turning right have the right-of-way over vehicles turning left, but do not have the right-of-way over pedestrians. This is a basic rule of law. This setup does not conflict with that.

I don't understand the concept of FYA not meaning "yield". It denotes a permissive movement, which requires yielding the right-of-way to complete. Who one yields to is another issue.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

Of course I slammed on my brakes for an instant at the red arrow, which was needless and potentially dangerous. Seems to me like it could have gone from steady yellow to flashing yellow just fine.

At the end of the phase, it went from flashing yellow arrow directly to red arrow. There was no steady yellow in between. That also seems like a mistake.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: 3467 on January 11, 2021, 03:20:26 PM
Illinois does and my screeching brakes were not as lucky as Pete's.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 11, 2021, 04:01:04 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

Of course I slammed on my brakes for an instant at the red arrow, which was needless and potentially dangerous.

Stopping at a red light is dangerous?  I'd contact your elected officials about that one.

What would you have done if the red arrow stayed red?  You knew the yellow arrow traditionally means that a red light would be forthcoming.  Sounds like you were trying to beat the light and second-guessed yourself.

Would you have been more satisfied if the red light stayed red for 5 seconds, then the FYA appeared? 

While I know the point your making is the arrow should've just gone from steady yellow to flashing yellow, the entire reason the FYA exists is to allow for varying modes of operation, so one should never assume a steady yellow arrow will instantly be followed by a flashing yellow arrow.
Title: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 04:45:59 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 11, 2021, 04:01:04 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

Of course I slammed on my brakes for an instant at the red arrow, which was needless and potentially dangerous.

Stopping at a red light is dangerous?  I'd contact your elected officials about that one.

What would you have done if the red arrow stayed red?  You knew the yellow arrow traditionally means that a red light would be forthcoming.  Sounds like you were trying to beat the light and second-guessed yourself.

Would you have been more satisfied if the red light stayed red for 5 seconds, then the FYA appeared? 

While I know the point your making is the arrow should've just gone from steady yellow to flashing yellow, the entire reason the FYA exists is to allow for varying modes of operation, so one should never assume a steady yellow arrow will instantly be followed by a flashing yellow arrow.

Actually, I have seen them go from green arrows to yellow flashing arrows with no intervening red, and yes, this one that turns red for one second took me by surprise.

I'm still curious what the standard protocol is for a transition from green arrow to flashing yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: GaryV on January 11, 2021, 05:33:37 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 04:45:59 PM
Actually, I have seen them go from green arrows to yellow flashing arrows with no intervening red, and yes, this one that turns red for one second took me by surprise.
That is quite common in my area, for both L and R green arrows.  I think the theory is that if you have a green arrow, there should not be conflicting pedestrian movements.  But on FYA, there could be - so they have you come to a full stop first so you can look for pedestrians before proceeding.

Now if we can just get those pesky pedestrians to obey their signals ...   :-o
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on January 11, 2021, 07:18:59 PM
Quote from: Pete from Boston on January 11, 2021, 03:18:00 PM
What is the protocol for a green arrow to transition to a flashing yellow arrow? I was just at an intersection where the green arrow went to a steady yellow arrow, then a red arrow for maybe one second before changing to flashing yellow.

My guess is because it may be an intersection that has time of day phases in which FYAs may not be used due to high volumes of traffic.  Around Durango, CO along US-160 and US-550 duplex, there are times in which one direction gets the leading green arrow and the opposing traffic gets a lagging left green arrow.  Due to heavy daytime traffic in the area, the FYA phase is skipped, but is used in off hours. 

Briefly going to the red arrow before the FYA is more of a safety issue as in "don't assume you'll get a FYA phase". -- a crosswalk may be activated, school kids are present,  FYA appears on weekends/holidays only, etc...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 11, 2021, 11:52:02 PM
Interim red arrows, also knows as a "flashing yellow arrow delay", are an optional part of the FYA setup. But virtually all agencies use it. The fact that it caught you off-guard is alarming to me as its basically normal for all FYAs. Pete: have you never driven through an FYA?

You can read about them in a report Safety and Operational Impacts of Optional Flashing Yellow Arrow Delay available from the TRB. Summary is "The simulation analysis showed significant safety benefits in a delay to the start of the FYA signal indication for all scenarios except the scenario with a low opposing through traffic volume, with no significant negative impacts on average delay, average queue length, or average stopped delay for either left-turning traffic or the intersection as a whole being found."

Seattle FYAs used to exclude the red arrow as the old Seattle setup, which was basically identical to FYAs but used a flashing yellow ball and bimodal green/yellow arrow, did not include a red arrow after the initial green arrow. But new FYA signals do use the interim red arrow.

Other agencies in the Seattle area use anything from a 1 or 2 second red arrow phase, all the way to 5 or 6 seconds. Some do not allow the FYA to activate during the walk phase (FDW only, or for others, both phases combined).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:39:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 11, 2021, 11:52:02 PM
Interim red arrows, also knows as a "flashing yellow arrow delay", are an optional part of the FYA setup. But virtually all agencies use it. The fact that it caught you off-guard is alarming to me as its basically normal for all FYAs. Pete: have you never driven through an FYA?

You can read about them in a report Safety and Operational Impacts of Optional Flashing Yellow Arrow Delay available from the TRB. Summary is "The simulation analysis showed significant safety benefits in a delay to the start of the FYA signal indication for all scenarios except the scenario with a low opposing through traffic volume, with no significant negative impacts on average delay, average queue length, or average stopped delay for either left-turning traffic or the intersection as a whole being found."

Seattle FYAs used to exclude the red arrow as the old Seattle setup, which was basically identical to FYAs but used a flashing yellow ball and bimodal green/yellow arrow, did not include a red arrow after the initial green arrow. But new FYA signals do use the interim red arrow.

Other agencies in the Seattle area use anything from a 1 or 2 second red arrow phase, all the way to 5 or 6 seconds. Some do not allow the FYA to activate during the walk phase (FDW only, or for others, both phases combined).
MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:43:29 PM
A cool set up and timing in Portsmouth NH.

https://youtu.be/1KYRIaM7-ZY


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 19, 2021, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:39:32 PM
MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 19, 2021, 06:29:18 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 19, 2021, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:39:32 PM
MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?
Yup! I'll upload one to YT and send a link.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 19, 2021, 06:32:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 19, 2021, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:39:32 PM
MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?
https://youtu.be/LvsGYF8mpKA


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on January 19, 2021, 10:46:17 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 19, 2021, 06:32:15 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 19, 2021, 04:43:08 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:39:32 PM
MassDOT FYAs do not use a delay. They go yellow flashing yellow. Though it depends town to town!

No kidding? I didn't realize this was common anywhere. Do you have any videos?
https://youtu.be/LvsGYF8mpKA


iPhone

I've seen many FYA's operate like that in NC as well. Most places in VA, however, has the delay. I think the delay is better, it gets people to come to a complete stop before preceding.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on January 23, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 18, 2021, 10:43:29 PM
A cool set up and timing in Portsmouth NH.

https://youtu.be/1KYRIaM7-ZY

A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 01:18:50 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 23, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
That is very interesting.

Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

The catch is that right-facing FYA signals are sometimes used in ways that make those turning right yield to everyone else, including those from the left. I've only seen this setup at slip lanes, personally. At any rate, this seems to work fine as most drivers can work out that they have to yield to everyone in these situations (although a supplementary "yield to all traffic on [fya]" sign would be helpful), but at a regular four-way intersection, this isn't how it works.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 2020 MUTCD may address this issue, per this document (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-12-14/pdf/2020-26789.pdf):

Quote411. In new "˜"˜Section 4F.15 Signal Indications for Protected/Permissive Mode Right-Turn Movements in a Separate Signal Face,'' which is comprised of existing P2—P6 of existing Section 4D.24, FHWA proposes to allow the display of a steady right-turn red arrow signal indication immediately following the steady right-turn yellow arrow signal indication to provide a red clearance interval, enabling the opposing traffic to start up before releasing the permissive right-turn movement.

FHWA also proposes to add a new requirement to display a steady right-turn yellow arrow and if needed, steady right-turn red arrow following the flashing right-turn yellow arrow for permissive right-turn movements changing to protected right-turn movements when there is an opposing permissive left-turn movement that is being terminated simultaneously. FHWA proposes this change because a yellow change interval and red clearance interval might be needed during a right-turn overlap to allow opposing permissive left-turn traffic to clear the intersection.

By the way, the last time I went to that intersection on December 30, 2020, the intersection wasn't completely finished and I think the PED phases were exclusive ped phase, but only for traffic crossing Main. Not sure if they will implement concurrent ped phasing once everything is complete.




Quote from: Revive 755 on December 21, 2020, 10:43:10 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on December 21, 2020, 11:01:03 PM
It's a further evolution of the backplates with large slots found in Lincoln, IL? (https://goo.gl/maps/w9dXyX9tM6RCNdzZ9)
Notice how the backplate on the center head is partly broken away? Eventually the rest of it will fall away too. Happens all the time on Long Island with NYS DOT's signals. Eventually most of them disappear.

...and this (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.1589299,-89.4156774,3a,15y,81.89h,99.65t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sYVeVxNIhSS7Eko63t0Ziow!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en) head as well to the left, which as of the taking of that GSV, is halfway on the verge of falling apart completly?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 02:45:50 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 23, 2021, 02:20:11 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the 2020 MUTCD may address this issue, per this document (https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/FR-2020-12-14/pdf/2020-26789.pdf):

It definitely seems to, yes.

That part in italics seems like a very obvious inclusion. How is traffic going to clear an intersection if oncoming traffic still has a permissive signal? Red clearance intervals are always necessary when you have permissive left turns, especially when the "destination road" only has one lane and you can't just merge side-by-side.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 23, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 01:18:50 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.
I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 04:11:13 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 23, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 01:18:50 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.

I'm not sure I follow. In the video, I saw the far side start off with a green through + green left arrow. By the end, the other direction had the green through + green arrow. That's classic lead-lag. The main odd thing about the intersection, to me, is how quickly the lagging green arrow activated. Around here, the FYA would have remained on until a certain amount of time passed, rather than just waiting for oncoming traffic to dissipate. After all, you don't need a green arrow to turn left if there's no oncoming traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 27, 2021, 09:40:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 04:11:13 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on January 23, 2021, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on January 23, 2021, 01:18:50 PM
Quote from: roadfro on January 23, 2021, 12:11:11 PM
A flashing yellow left arrow during an opposing green through and opposing left doesn't seem all that spectacular... There's a few locations here in Reno-Sparks with that phasing deployed.

I also did not directly comment on that here because, like you, I too am used to seeing such a setup. It's the nature of the FYA, as far as I'm concerned, and quite a lot of cities around here use lead-lag with FYAs too.

I mean I get that, but it's more about how the signals lead lag has the arrow as the middle phase.

I'm not sure I follow. In the video, I saw the far side start off with a green through + green left arrow. By the end, the other direction had the green through + green arrow. That's classic lead-lag. The main odd thing about the intersection, to me, is how quickly the lagging green arrow activated. Around here, the FYA would have remained on until a certain amount of time passed, rather than just waiting for oncoming traffic to dissipate. After all, you don't need a green arrow to turn left if there's no oncoming traffic.

Yeah, that's kinda the cool thing to me. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks this but at 0:18 when the medium of the phase is a left arrow not a thru green is kinda unique for a lead-lag.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 27, 2021, 09:42:46 PM
Here is another unique (atleast in my opinion) FYA signal in Cambridge MA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gw7UdwjWsA8
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 27, 2021, 10:24:24 PM
Amtrakprod, that looks like the back of Cambridge Fire headquarters in the middle of the Harvard Campus; am I correct?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 28, 2021, 07:53:50 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on January 27, 2021, 10:24:24 PM
Amtrakprod, that looks like the back of Cambridge Fire headquarters in the middle of the Harvard Campus; am I correct?
Yes


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2021, 01:36:39 PM
Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Big John on January 31, 2021, 01:44:18 PM
^^ There is at least 1 in Wisconsin (Oneida St and I-41 ramp) in Ashwaubenon.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on January 31, 2021, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2021, 01:36:39 PM
Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

Apparently,  NJ's ONLY FYA is for a right turn!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on January 31, 2021, 02:32:06 PM
They're permitted everywhere, to my knowledge. It's in the MUTCD. Whether the state of Maine wants to use them...well, that's up to them.

Here in Western Washington, right-facing flashing yellow arrows are very common, particularly in Auburn and Federal Way. Seattle also has quite a few now, as does Bellevue. Total, I'd guess 30 to 40 intersections have them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 31, 2021, 08:29:09 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2021, 01:36:39 PM
Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

I've seen them in MA, NY, TX, CA, and even NJ. It's weird that they wouldn't be permitted for just right v left. Though, I do not think Maine gets the purpose of Flashing yellow arrows.

MA really has come to like them, especially Cambridge and in other urban places. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.3655017,-71.1040315,3a,24.4y,44.31h,92.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sP1HEzAN54BFyFzZCsxs31A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Typically we use them for 3 sections, but you'll find 4-section one occasionally. Unfortunately, all of the 4-section right turn FYAs I know of are incorrectly programmed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on January 31, 2021, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on January 31, 2021, 02:16:34 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2021, 01:36:39 PM
Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

Apparently,  NJ's ONLY FYA is for a right turn!

Oh yeah! I'm gonna check that out when I'm in NJ in April. I always go to Piscataway for trains anyways.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on January 31, 2021, 08:38:00 PM
I believe New York City has them in some places to remind drivers to yield to pedestrians in crosswalks.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on February 01, 2021, 12:26:33 AM
NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 01, 2021, 09:03:12 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on February 01, 2021, 12:26:33 AM
NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.

Here's one in Amsterdam:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.9383309,-74.1921565,3a,29.9y,342.42h,88.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sW2wFYR2mr6G7sVepo8BCWA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 01, 2021, 09:09:45 AM
Looks like Weymouth just maybe upgrading a ton of their signals, or well that MassDOT district. First off, jealous, since MA-4 (where I am) uses the least FYAs out of any district. https://www.google.com/maps/@42.1649352,-70.9552685,3a,28.6y,266.37h,94.97t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sENR8F-Uw6lhXU1CE9-pwqA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 01, 2021, 01:12:11 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on February 01, 2021, 12:26:33 AM
NY state has a few FYRAs here and there, but they are not common outside of NYC.

As an aside, this intersection had its green right turn arrows swapped out for flashing yellow ones recently (still a 3 section signal) due to the way the signal functions.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/wwh3KZ8yuYWpDDEQ6

The signal shown only protects the crosswalk, not traffic merging onto 25A. So both 25A and this leg could and did have a green signal prior to the change, which was confusing IMO. See
https://maps.app.goo.gl/NQM2tmZM1iEDE7kX7 for what I mean.

While adding a FYA is the right call here, to prevent people from assuming that they have a protected turn onto 25A, it is unfortunate that a 4 aspect FYA signal wasn't used.  When 25A has a protected left turn onto Echo Ave, this right turn is fully protected and deserves a green arrow.  Most other times, a flashing yellow arrow is appropriate to warn of the merging onto 25A and a red arrow is appropriate when peds are crossing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on February 01, 2021, 09:29:38 PM
NYS DOT Region 10 is in an FYA frenzy on Long Island, especially in the Hicksville area where a bunch of them now exist on state routes 106/107.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: John Brighton on February 02, 2021, 07:29:07 PM
I first saw the FYA when I went on a trip to the Outer Banks. When I first saw it on US 158, it was confusing, but then I got used to it. Now I see them close to the Smith Haven Mall on NY 347 and NY 25, and it makes more sense. The Smith Haven Mall itself has a FYA going from NY 25 to the mall
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on February 02, 2021, 08:55:47 PM
FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 04, 2021, 12:08:11 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 02, 2021, 08:55:47 PM
FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.

Indeed.  A green ball in such a scenario would almost feel personal to the left turner since it is aimed squarely at them.  While appropriate signage (Left turn yield on green, watch opposing traffic) may help, a FYA is definitely the preferred solution.

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on February 04, 2021, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 04, 2021, 12:08:11 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 02, 2021, 08:55:47 PM
FYA is probably an excellent idea in that area on NY 347. It's been several years since I drove that road but I recall the left-turn lanes were actually separated by a buffer from the thru lanes and only had a green ball over those turning lanes. I was told that many collisions resulted from left-turning drivers wrongly assuming that the green ball over the separated turning lane was the same for them as a green arrow. So in the those locations an FYA would be perfect.

Indeed.  A green ball in such a scenario would almost feel personal to the left turner since it is aimed squarely at them.  While appropriate signage (Left turn yield on green, watch opposing traffic) may help, a FYA is definitely the preferred solution.

Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192



In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 04, 2021, 01:33:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 04, 2021, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 04, 2021, 12:08:11 AM
Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.

Incorrect. The left turn in his example is permissive. Even in his street view link, you can see a pedestrian crossing the road. Here's a better shot (https://goo.gl/maps/R6WuxEuAnzBAvTMcA) showing cars waiting.

Vancouver, BC also has wide medians with far-off left turn lanes (https://goo.gl/maps/NBibb288DZKt5DWT9). Nothing special is usually posted, but drivers usually figure it out with the left-side green orb that is always present.

As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question (https://goo.gl/maps/yhSiDoLNL9UHrNRr6), I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: betfourteen on February 04, 2021, 09:04:28 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 01, 2021, 09:29:38 PM
NYS DOT Region 10 is in an FYA frenzy on Long Island, especially in the Hicksville area where a bunch of them now exist on state routes 106/107.

25/25A as well
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on February 04, 2021, 10:13:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2021, 01:33:08 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on February 04, 2021, 12:29:39 AM
Quote from: mrsman on February 04, 2021, 12:08:11 AM
Los Angeles has many streets with very wide medians that display this problem.  FYAs would be really helpful as a replacement.

Example, Burton Way:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.072237,-118.3834785,3a,75y,271.41h,94.74t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s6mUdnqMZmi5kLFAfdeuDRw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

In this example, opposing traffic has a red signal, so there's no conflict. Since it doesn't appear there's a desire to allow permissive left turns, the FYA has no effect here.

Incorrect. The left turn in his example is permissive. Even in his street view link, you can see a pedestrian crossing the road. Here's a better shot (https://goo.gl/maps/R6WuxEuAnzBAvTMcA) showing cars waiting.

Vancouver, BC also has wide medians with far-off left turn lanes (https://goo.gl/maps/NBibb288DZKt5DWT9). Nothing special is usually posted, but drivers usually figure it out with the left-side green orb that is always present.

As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question (https://goo.gl/maps/yhSiDoLNL9UHrNRr6), I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.

Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on February 04, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 04, 2021, 10:13:03 PM
Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.

Correct me if I'm wrong about this. While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn, I thought the reason why FYA's were created was to fix the dangerous yellow trap (traditional, phase skip, preempt, etc) that exists with "yield on green" signals, and allow more signal flexiblilty (which is the reason why I am surprised that FHWA did not phase out shared, "yield on green" left turn signals in the 2020 MUTCD and mandate FYA).

Is there something in NCHRP Report 493 I am missing?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:02:51 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 04, 2021, 10:13:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 04, 2021, 01:33:08 AM
As to the NY-347 example: if this is the kind of intersection in question (https://goo.gl/maps/yhSiDoLNL9UHrNRr6), I really don't understand how drivers could be confused by it.

Well Jakeroot, the drivers who are confused by the signal in your photo of NY-347 are probably the same ones who FHWA said were confused by traditional freeway option-lane signing. Ya' know where two signs for different routes each had an arrow over the option lane, that was supposedly the reason APL signing was created? Yeah those drivers are probably the ones who misunderstand a green-ball over a separated left-turn lane.

Touché my friend...touché.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 04, 2021, 10:58:41 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong about this. While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn, I thought the reason why FYA's were created was to fix the dangerous yellow trap (traditional, phase skip, preempt, etc) that exists with "yield on green" signals, and allow more signal flexiblilty (which is the reason why I am surprised that FHWA did not phase out shared, "yield on green" left turn signals in the 2020 MUTCD and mandate FYA).

Is there something in NCHRP Report 493 I am missing?

I think it depends on the state. Here in WA, lead-lag phasing has never been permitted with protected-permissive signals. Even now, it technically isn't permitted, but even WSDOT practices it with flashing yellow arrows as the reason the rule was written (shared signals) is no longer a factor.

The FYA was invented for numerous reasons; not only did it improve driver recognition of the need to "yield", but it created a great deal of operational flexibility that previously only existed with Dallas phasing: it improved the safety of pre-emption*, allowed time-of-day phasing, and finally permitted a proper lead-lag operation without worrying about louvres. So far as I know, FYAs helped improve safety as drivers better understood the meaning of a flashing yellow arrow compared to circular green indications when it came to turning, but the rest of the improvements were operational efficiencies AFAIK.

*pre-emption still seems programmed poorly; I've seen many go all-red, even for the FYA, and give all green to the pre-empted approach (the opposing FYA should remain in flashing mode, ideally).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
Quote from: plain on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Well, technically you have the right of way on a solid yellow arrow as well, and in many states, the red arrow too, assuming you entered on either green or yellow (you just have to make sure to exit the intersection ASAP).

This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rawmustard on February 05, 2021, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

But you'll still have instances where a lagging phase could be skipped, and there's plenty of good reasons to skip a protected turn phase when warranted.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on February 05, 2021, 03:26:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
Quote from: plain on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Well, technically you have the right of way on a solid yellow arrow as well, and in many states, the red arrow too, assuming you entered on either green or yellow (you just have to make sure to exit the intersection ASAP).

Absolutely.


Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

I didn't say enough in making my point earlier, sorry for that. I was trying to say that whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 08:21:24 PM
Quote from: rawmustard on February 05, 2021, 03:24:04 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

But you'll still have instances where a lagging phase could be skipped, and there's plenty of good reasons to skip a protected turn phase when warranted.

Yes, that's true. I was thinking an intersection like this near me (https://goo.gl/maps/1Z2ewbNomHL3YfnB9) where during the day, it operates with lag/lag phasing (although sometimes the lagging phase is skipped). No matter what, drivers only see a solid yellow arrow once during the phase, primarily after a green arrow, but it can sometimes be following a flashing yellow. So yes, not perfect by any stretch. Never mind overnight arrows where the signal seems to default to regular lead/lead phasing.

Quote from: plain on February 05, 2021, 03:26:39 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 05, 2021, 01:10:43 PM
This actually highlights one of the issues with FYAs that have leading phasing: there are two solid yellow arrow phases: after the initial protected green, and following the permissive flashing yellow. In theory, both mean the same thing (the related phase is ending), but practically, you have to be a bit more considerate than that. Oncoming traffic might be approaching on the solid yellow arrow that follows the flashing yellow phase; this is not the case for the solid yellow arrow the follows the solid green arrow, where oncoming traffic would be stopped.

In practice, drivers figure it out. But it's a grey area for sure, and at least one good reason why lagging green arrows might be superior: only one solid yellow arrow phase is used.

I didn't say enough in making my point earlier, sorry for that. I was trying to say that whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

Understood, I gotcha. And yes, that's absolutely true.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: rickmastfan67 on February 09, 2021, 11:10:28 PM
Not sure where this is, but I was watching a video, and saw a DOUBLE FYRTA in it.  Thought that was interesting.

https://youtu.be/Cx72hxKFl5o?t=359

Skip to the 6 minute mark to see it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 09, 2021, 11:18:50 PM
Quote from: rickmastfan67 on February 09, 2021, 11:10:28 PM
Not sure where this is, but I was watching a video, and saw a DOUBLE FYRTA in it.  Thought that was interesting.

https://youtu.be/Cx72hxKFl5o?t=359

Skip to the 6 minute mark to see it.
The street blades are barely readable with the quality of that video, but after searching for a couple of minutes in the SLC area (the mountains are a give away), it's State St and 7720 South (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6109505,-111.8910481,3a,75y,105.42h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS0Lt7uD_eQ4-XUipRcBr7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 09, 2021, 11:25:58 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 09, 2021, 11:18:50 PM
The street blades are barely readable with the quality of that video, but after searching for a couple of minutes in the SLC area (the mountains are a give away), it's State St and 7720 South (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6109505,-111.8910481,3a,75y,105.42h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS0Lt7uD_eQ4-XUipRcBr7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

Nice find, thank you.

Great setup. Seems to work well. I think the rear-ending is unrelated to the FYAs.

Nearly identical signal design as the previously-discussed Hwy 170/Boundary St intersection (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=5944.msg2568551#msg2568551) in Beaufort, SC; as expected, same single-through-head error.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on February 11, 2021, 08:56:07 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2021, 01:36:39 PM
Question to ask, how many states allow FYA's to be used as right turn signals? I only ask because I got an email from MaineDOT recently saying that FYA right turn signals have not been approved in the State of Maine...

I have seen a FYA for right turns in Philadelphia (15th & Arch), though they use a four lens signal that never activates the green arrow.  Outside of the city, I have yet to see one in PA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on February 12, 2021, 06:59:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 09, 2021, 11:25:58 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 09, 2021, 11:18:50 PM
The street blades are barely readable with the quality of that video, but after searching for a couple of minutes in the SLC area (the mountains are a give away), it's State St and 7720 South (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.6109505,-111.8910481,3a,75y,105.42h,88.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sS0Lt7uD_eQ4-XUipRcBr7w!2e0!7i16384!8i8192).

Nice find, thank you.

Great setup. Seems to work well. I think the rear-ending is unrelated to the FYAs.

The rear-ending is just distracted Utah drivers at their finest.

I had no idea that was there...and I've clinched every mile of state highway in the Wasatch Front. Even as UDOT has pretty much completely moved to the FYA for left turns on new installs, they still tend to use doghouses (sometimes even a double doghouse) for dual rights.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 16, 2021, 05:12:56 PM
One of the only FYA signals in MA with a red delay. Should be more, works awesome here!

https://youtu.be/x7VgYhAi8ro


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2021, 09:01:11 PM
Quote from: plain on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Quote
While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn,

Quote
whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

Sorry, but left-turn lane or not, if you don't know that left turning vehicles yield to oncoming traffic on a circular green with no accompanying green arrow, you should not be behind the wheel. FYAs can be helpful and even necessary for some phasings, but by no means should they be needed to remind drivers of their basic responsibility to follow one of the most fundamental right-of-way rules. Should we just start putting FYA beacons at unsignalized left turns?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on February 17, 2021, 09:12:57 AM
Quote from: interstatefan990 on February 16, 2021, 09:01:11 PM

Quote from: plain on February 05, 2021, 10:19:46 AM
It's really simple. If you don't see a green arrow for said left turn then you must yield to oncoming traffic, whether it's a doghouse, an FYA, or just a regular 3-section with all orbs (no arrow at all). The same rules apply on both traditional left turn lanes and the ones split from the thru lanes via paint or islands.

Quote
While it is true that one reason why the FYA was created to "improve driver understanding" of a permissive left turn, because when green balls were over the left turn lane, some drivers thought it meant a protected turn,

Quote
whatever the left turn lane striping situation is, the same rules apply as far as oncoming traffic is concerned in conjunction with the signal(s), no matter what.

Sorry, but left-turn lane or not, if you don't know that left turning vehicles yield to oncoming traffic on a circular green with no accompanying green arrow, you should not be behind the wheel. FYAs can be helpful and even necessary for some phasings, but by no means should they be needed to remind drivers of their basic responsibility to follow one of the most fundamental right-of-way rules. Should we just start putting FYA beacons at unsignalized left turns?

You mean, except when you don't have to yield...?   :hmmm:

Quote from: jakeroot on February 16, 2021, 01:25:37 AM
This signal in Florida, US-27 @ Johnson St (https://goo.gl/maps/B3KqgDnYxtrBe52G6) in Pembroke Pines, has left turn signals that use RYG orbs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: interstatefan990 on February 17, 2021, 11:22:12 AM
Quote from: kphoger
You mean, except when you don't have to yield...?   :hmmm:

MUTCD Section 4D.19, Signal Indications for Protected Only Mode Left-Turn Movements, Paragraph 3:

Quote
If a separate left-turn signal face is provided for a protected only mode left turn, it shall meet the following requirements (see Figure 4D-10):
A. It shall be capable of displaying, the following signal indications: steady left-turn RED ARROW, steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW, and left-turn GREEN ARROW. Only one of the three indications shall be displayed at any given time. A signal instruction sign shall not be required with this set of signal indications. If used, it shall be a LEFT ON GREEN ARROW ONLY (R10-5) sign (see Figure 2B-27).
B. During the protected left-turn movement, a left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication shall be displayed.
C. A steady left-turn YELLOW ARROW signal indication shall be displayed following the left-turn GREEN ARROW signal indication.


That signal in Florida seems like a rare exception, but nonetheless it is a blatant violation of the MUTCD. It cannot display any of the required red, yellow, or green arrows. Pretty concerning when you remember that Florida doesn't have a state supplement.  I guess the Left Turn Signal sign alleviates it partially but it doesn't excuse the signal's noncompliance. If it was on my commute to work, I'd contact the transportation department about it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 09:02:54 PM
I thought you guys might find this interesting.

I am working on my MS at school which involves modelling crash predictions for intersections with flashing yellow arrows (those that don't have them), and I was working on writing an introduction which would include a history.

Through the University of Washington, I have extensive newspaper archives available to me. So I did a quick search for "flashing yellow arrow" (in quotes) and set the date to 2000-2009, and set it to sort by oldest first.

The oldest newspaper articles refer to "flashing yellow arrows" in reference to those large matrix displays that show arrows pointing left or right. But if you keep searching, you do eventually get to this article from April 18, 2002:

Quote from: The Oregonian: "FLASHING YELLOW ARROW NEW CHOICE AT INTERSECTION"
Summary: The experimental fourth light governing left turns at three sites will replace clusters of five lights now being used

Red means stop. Green means go. And that flashing yellow arrow pointing to the left?

It means stop and wait for oncoming traffic and pedestrians to cross before making a left turn into a side street from a left-turn lane.

The flashing yellow pointer, part of a three-year nationwide experiment to see whether drivers will understand and accept it, is about to appear at three southwest Beaverton intersections.

Sometime next week, ]a city crew will add the flashing arrows to signals at Allen Boulevard and Wilson Avenue, Allen and Menlo Drive, and 125th Avenue and Longhorn Lane. The latter intersection provides northbound traffic with a left turn into Southridge High School grounds.

The new signals will replace "dog house" groupings of five lights: a red light above side-by-side yellow and green disks and arrows, said Randy Wooley, city traffic engineer. The combinations are used at some intersections to indicate when drivers can and can't make left turns.

In the experimental cycle, a steady green arrow will indicate, as it does now, when motorists can turn left while oncoming traffic and pedestrians are required to stop. Then the signal will change to the flashing yellow, indicating left turns are allowed after oncoming traffic and pedestrians pass. The meaning of a steady red arrow remains the same: no left turns.

Wooley said that a Portland consulting firm, Kittelson & Associates, asked him earlier this year whether the city would take part in the national experiment, conducted for the Federal Highway Administration by the University of Massachusetts.

After checking with the city's Traffic Commission, Wooley agreed to participate.

If the motoring public accepts the signals and if accident rates nationwide don't increase, he said, the flashing yellow signals will become part of the federal agency's signal specifications used by state and local governments receiving federal highway money. That means almost everywhere.

The flashing-yellow arrow idea grew out of traffic engineers' realization that localities across the country mark left turns differently, said Kent Kacir, representing the Kittelson firm.]

For example, in Seattle a flashing yellow ball over a left-turn lane indicates "turn when safe." In Cupertino, Calif., a flashing red arrow serves that purpose, Kacir said.

Engineering groups such as the Texas Transportation Institute have sought uniformity across the country. "What floated to the top was this flashing yellow arrow," he said.

In Oregon, Wooley said, Beaverton isn't quite leading the way with the experiment. The state Department of Transportation installed flashing yellow arrows at two Woodburn intersections along Oregon 99E last June. Jackson County in Southwest Oregon also is trying out the arrangement.

The Woodburn signals appear to be working well, said Craig Black, traffic manager of the state agency's Region 2.


"I'm not aware of any accidents that have occurred at those intersections," Black said. He has received only two or three telephone calls asking about the signals since they were installed June 14, amid publicity from local news media.

A check of Woodburn Police Department accident records, however, shows two accidents related to improper left turns occurred at one of the intersections, both in October. In one of the mishaps, at 99E and Lincoln Street, an officer reported that a driver said he had sped up to make the turn when he saw the yellow arrow start flashing.

Wooley said nationwide data collected so far have not indicated higher-than-normal accident rates where the flashing yellow arrows have been installed.

No warning signs will be placed near the Beaverton intersections advising motorists of the new flashing-arrow designation, Wooley said. "The experience elsewhere is that people figure that out quickly and don't need help with it."

You can reach Richard Colby at 503-294-5961 or by e-mail at dickcolby@news.oregonian.com.

If you look along OR-99E in Woodburn, you can spot a few intersections that use FYA signals. All are three-face FYA signals, which I know were introduced later. But if you go back into historic imagery, you can find these older four-face displays.

For example, here at Hardcastle Ave (https://goo.gl/maps/5tKG6wsjLBGjB5E86), or here at Lincoln Rd (https://goo.gl/maps/hYRLSaanZLogiPXe6), you can see the older four-face displays that clearly were quite aged. I think it's highly likely that these were the first FYA installs for left turns in the US, as a separate concept from those used historically in DC or some other city centers (San Francisco?), at least prior to a national study. It's likely those along 99E were a study of their own, not unlike the flashing red arrows in some states, or flashing yellow orbs in Seattle.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I'm not sure what the oldest FYA install in the country is, but I know of three FYAs on MO 340 in the St Louis area, at intersections with Ross Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6753083,-90.4620746,3a,60.2y,294.52h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr_NPeLDn0GG5N57X_r-hmA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), Heritage Pl (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6767782,-90.4657796,3a,77.6y,101.46h,98.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srBdl7Cwg0zMMwZ-gxe20ZA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and Mason Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6781733,-90.4687091,3a,75y,282.86h,94.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3WKKDsNeXZEJwH1u9pD_w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), that's been there since at least 2007 (oldest GSV available). Well, the physical signal has been replaced later on with a red arrow, but those intersections had an FYA for at least that long.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I'm not sure what the oldest FYA install in the country is, but I know of three FYAs on MO 340 in the St Louis area, at intersections with Ross Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6753083,-90.4620746,3a,60.2y,294.52h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr_NPeLDn0GG5N57X_r-hmA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), Heritage Pl (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6767782,-90.4657796,3a,77.6y,101.46h,98.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srBdl7Cwg0zMMwZ-gxe20ZA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and Mason Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6781733,-90.4687091,3a,75y,282.86h,94.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3WKKDsNeXZEJwH1u9pD_w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), that's been there since at least 2007 (oldest GSV available). Well, the physical signal has been replaced later on with a red arrow, but those intersections had an FYA for at least that long.

Sounds about right. The FYA really started showing up heavily around 2007 to 2008. It was the stretch from 2000 to 2007/08 that left me uncertain.

What throws a wrench in the works is the existing pre-2000 FYA signals that existed around DC and San Francisco. Conceptually those are somewhat related but not necessarily identical. Finding the first true FYA for left turns that used four-section signals seems like a tall order. But those OR-99E intersections are the closest I've yet gotten.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I'm not sure what the oldest FYA install in the country is, but I know of three FYAs on MO 340 in the St Louis area, at intersections with Ross Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6753083,-90.4620746,3a,60.2y,294.52h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr_NPeLDn0GG5N57X_r-hmA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), Heritage Pl (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6767782,-90.4657796,3a,77.6y,101.46h,98.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srBdl7Cwg0zMMwZ-gxe20ZA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and Mason Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6781733,-90.4687091,3a,75y,282.86h,94.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3WKKDsNeXZEJwH1u9pD_w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), that's been there since at least 2007 (oldest GSV available). Well, the physical signal has been replaced later on with a red arrow, but those intersections had an FYA for at least that long.

Sounds about right. The FYA really started showing up heavily around 2007 to 2008. It was the stretch from 2000 to 2007/08 that left me uncertain.

What throws a wrench in the works is the existing pre-2000 FYA signals that existed around DC and San Francisco. Conceptually those are somewhat related but not necessarily identical. Finding the first true FYA for left turns that used four-section signals seems like a tall order. But those OR-99E intersections are the closest I've yet gotten.
You have a date, or at least a year, for that Oregon article you quoted earlier?

Also I found this 38 page MoDOT document from 2008 (https://spexternal.modot.mo.gov/sites/cm/CORDT/or08019.pdf) with the results for the FYA study in the 3 locations I linked above. The document confirmed that those 3 FYAs were installed in early 2007, which I was unsure about when looking through GSV. Basically a survey of what drivers would do at certain signal types, with comparisons between the FYA and the doghouse. It's somewhat interesting, considering it's the first FYA installments in the state, so not a lot of people had an idea of what it is.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 11:14:11 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I'm not sure what the oldest FYA install in the country is, but I know of three FYAs on MO 340 in the St Louis area, at intersections with Ross Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6753083,-90.4620746,3a,60.2y,294.52h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr_NPeLDn0GG5N57X_r-hmA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), Heritage Pl (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6767782,-90.4657796,3a,77.6y,101.46h,98.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srBdl7Cwg0zMMwZ-gxe20ZA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and Mason Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6781733,-90.4687091,3a,75y,282.86h,94.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3WKKDsNeXZEJwH1u9pD_w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), that's been there since at least 2007 (oldest GSV available). Well, the physical signal has been replaced later on with a red arrow, but those intersections had an FYA for at least that long.

Sounds about right. The FYA really started showing up heavily around 2007 to 2008. It was the stretch from 2000 to 2007/08 that left me uncertain.

What throws a wrench in the works is the existing pre-2000 FYA signals that existed around DC and San Francisco. Conceptually those are somewhat related but not necessarily identical. Finding the first true FYA for left turns that used four-section signals seems like a tall order. But those OR-99E intersections are the closest I've yet gotten.
You have a date, or at least a year, for that Oregon article you quoted earlier?

Also I found this 38 page MoDOT document from 2008 (https://spexternal.modot.mo.gov/sites/cm/CORDT/or08019.pdf) with the results for the FYA study in the 3 locations I linked above. The document confirmed that those 3 FYAs were installed in early 2007, which I was unsure about when looking through GSV. Basically a survey of what drivers would do at certain signal types, with comparisons between the FYA and the doghouse. It's somewhat interesting, considering it's the first FYA installments in the state, so not a lot of people had an idea of what it is.

It was dated 18 April 2002. My bad for not including that in the original post. Totally forgot.

That's actually a very helpful document. I may steal that!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on February 20, 2021, 03:49:51 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 11:14:11 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 10:46:23 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 18, 2021, 10:31:19 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 18, 2021, 09:09:27 PM
I'm not sure what the oldest FYA install in the country is, but I know of three FYAs on MO 340 in the St Louis area, at intersections with Ross Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6753083,-90.4620746,3a,60.2y,294.52h,89.31t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sr_NPeLDn0GG5N57X_r-hmA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), Heritage Pl (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6767782,-90.4657796,3a,77.6y,101.46h,98.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srBdl7Cwg0zMMwZ-gxe20ZA!2e0!7i3328!8i1664) and Mason Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@38.6781733,-90.4687091,3a,75y,282.86h,94.27t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sj3WKKDsNeXZEJwH1u9pD_w!2e0!7i3328!8i1664), that's been there since at least 2007 (oldest GSV available). Well, the physical signal has been replaced later on with a red arrow, but those intersections had an FYA for at least that long.

Sounds about right. The FYA really started showing up heavily around 2007 to 2008. It was the stretch from 2000 to 2007/08 that left me uncertain.

What throws a wrench in the works is the existing pre-2000 FYA signals that existed around DC and San Francisco. Conceptually those are somewhat related but not necessarily identical. Finding the first true FYA for left turns that used four-section signals seems like a tall order. But those OR-99E intersections are the closest I've yet gotten.
You have a date, or at least a year, for that Oregon article you quoted earlier?

Also I found this 38 page MoDOT document from 2008 (https://spexternal.modot.mo.gov/sites/cm/CORDT/or08019.pdf) with the results for the FYA study in the 3 locations I linked above. The document confirmed that those 3 FYAs were installed in early 2007, which I was unsure about when looking through GSV. Basically a survey of what drivers would do at certain signal types, with comparisons between the FYA and the doghouse. It's somewhat interesting, considering it's the first FYA installments in the state, so not a lot of people had an idea of what it is.

It was dated 18 April 2002. My bad for not including that in the original post. Totally forgot.

That's actually a very helpful document. I may steal that!

The first of the 4-section FYAs, as originally adopted by FHWA, were first implemented at five locations in Reno, NV. This is according to NCHRP Report 493  (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjNq-uvo_nuAhVTPn0KHS3DCPIQFjALegQIHBAD&url=https%3A%2F%2Fonlinepubs.trb.org%2Fonlinepubs%2Fnchrp%2Fnchrp_rpt_493.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2BBs6LKM992AGxcW0IDWkO)(PDF, pg 29) which was the study that led to the evaluation of the various PPLT displays previously used across the country and recommended the FHWA's adopt the FYA into the MUTCD. In an email chain from the mid 2000s in the now-defunct "Reno Traffic" YahooGroup, the guy who spearheaded trying them out talked a bit more about the background of their history in Reno.

I believe these were tried out beginning in the mid-1990s, but they were later removed due to a change in the traffic engineering staff leadership that wanted the same signalization across the city–the guy who spearheaded them had since left the city for the private sector. The FYAs were gone by mid-2001 at the latest (as I never saw any of them when I started college in Reno in 2001) so unfortunately I have no idea what intersections they were used at so can't compare with what's there today. (Although if I had to guess, I'd probably guess a few locations along Virginia Street.) A few of Sparks' 5-section variants persisted until 2002-03 or so, and the couple locations I'm aware of that used it still have regular doghouses today.

Once the FYA was adopted in the 2009 MUTCD, Reno was a very early adopter and quickly changed out most (if not all) doghouses within a couple years. They were probably the first city in Nevada with more than a handful of signals to completely change over doghouses to FYAs.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on February 21, 2021, 12:38:06 AM
Massachusetts wasn't too quick to the flashing yellow arrow game. We started installing them in the state in 2013. https://blog.mass.gov/transportation/massdot-highway/massdot-launches-flashing-yellow-arrow-traffic-signal-project/

MassDOT found them successful, thus making a wide spread replacement program that changed 350+ signal intersections to FYAs. Once the state started using them, many towns did too. 2018 was the year where I realized 95% of new lights with left turn only lanes permissive would use FYAs. I'd say about 75% of towns in the state have atleast one FYA. Heck, even my town has one now!
TLDR:
Massachusetts was far from a FYA pioneer but they're very common now.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210221/72cd8498543d6d794196fcdada663c20.jpg)


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 01:35:28 AM
For MO. After the MO 340 pilot program, they've been popping up in more locations.  Specifically in the St Louis area, MoDOT maintained routes had a mass replacement program in the mid 2010s to replace doghouses with the FYA. Some routes that are mostly FYA for permissive (3 section) or protected-permissive (4 section) now are 30, 340, 366, 100 and 180. US 67 has a notable section through Kirkwood that still uses doghouses, but otherwise, it's mostly FYA too. On non-numbered roads, new replacements have mostly been FYA, but they're not in a hurry to replace all the doghouses. The state doesn't use FYA for right turns though, and installations with a FYA left and doghouse right on the same mast arm are common.

Meanwhile in Ohio: "wait, FYAs exist?  :hmmm:"
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
I saw some FYAs on OH 747 in West Chester today. Apparently, they were there since last April  (https://www.wvxu.org/post/odot-testing-new-turn-signals-along-route-747-butler-county#stream/0)as part of an ODOT pilot project. Could probably dig out the dashcam footage and post some pictures of them here later. They were 3 section FYAs, with the flashing yellow sharing the same middle section with the solid yellow. They took me by surprise a bit, as I'm used to the 4 section ones that other agencies like MoDOT uses for protected-permissive.
Besides that, there's a couple of one-offs in my area, like Tylersville Rd and US 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3518028,-84.3212307,3a,25.2y,293.99h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGPJ9YOx-kFB66wA7t3ae5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and OH 741 and Bethany Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3773602,-84.2884646,3a,75y,59.42h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu8i0T0fbxr04kLNHWy2qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (those 2 are the standard 4 section FYAs).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
I saw some FYAs on OH 747 in West Chester today. Apparently, they were there since last April  (https://www.wvxu.org/post/odot-testing-new-turn-signals-along-route-747-butler-county#stream/0)as part of an ODOT pilot project. Could probably dig out the dashcam footage and post some pictures of them here later. They were 3 section FYAs, with the flashing yellow sharing the same middle section with the solid yellow. They took me by surprise a bit, as I'm used to the 4 section ones that other agencies like MoDOT uses for protected-permissive.
Besides that, there's a couple of one-offs in my area, like Tylersville Rd and US 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3518028,-84.3212307,3a,25.2y,293.99h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGPJ9YOx-kFB66wA7t3ae5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and OH 741 and Bethany Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3773602,-84.2884646,3a,75y,59.42h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu8i0T0fbxr04kLNHWy2qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (those 2 are the standard 4 section FYAs).

The Mason ones are among very interesting mishmash of doghouses and FYAs.  There seem to be very few FYAs in Ohio so far.  I was quite surprised to see it yesterday.  Indiana, on the other hand, seems to be all-in on changing for them.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 09:20:18 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
I saw some FYAs on OH 747 in West Chester today. Apparently, they were there since last April  (https://www.wvxu.org/post/odot-testing-new-turn-signals-along-route-747-butler-county#stream/0)as part of an ODOT pilot project. Could probably dig out the dashcam footage and post some pictures of them here later. They were 3 section FYAs, with the flashing yellow sharing the same middle section with the solid yellow. They took me by surprise a bit, as I'm used to the 4 section ones that other agencies like MoDOT uses for protected-permissive.
Besides that, there's a couple of one-offs in my area, like Tylersville Rd and US 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3518028,-84.3212307,3a,25.2y,293.99h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGPJ9YOx-kFB66wA7t3ae5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and OH 741 and Bethany Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3773602,-84.2884646,3a,75y,59.42h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu8i0T0fbxr04kLNHWy2qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (those 2 are the standard 4 section FYAs).

The Mason ones are among very interesting mishmash of doghouses and FYAs.  There seem to be very few FYAs in Ohio so far.  I was quite surprised to see it yesterday.  Indiana, on the other hand, seems to be all-in on changing for them.
Something tells me that Mason sort of gave up on the FYA after those two were installed. All the span wire signals on Mason-Montgomery Rd between Merten Dr (near the Marriott at I-71 exit 19) and Terra Firma Dr (near Kroger and P&G Mason) (https://www.google.com/maps/dir/39.3175778,-84.3130636/9702-9660+Mason+Montgomery+Rd,+Mason,+OH+45040/@39.3071715,-84.3233545,14.54z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m0!1m5!1m1!1s0x884056f9b5e3367d:0x4490cca9e28c0765!2m2!1d-84.3151393!2d39.2975266!3e0) got replaced with mast arms in 2018, and they still used doghouse signals for left turns on the replacements. I thought for a while during the replacement process that they will use FYAs for left turns, and I was so wrong, and a bit disappointed too. Didn't really care about FYA for right turns that much, as I mentioned upthread, MoDOT was an early pioneer of FYA signals, but still use doghouses for right turns to this day.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 14, 2021, 11:22:30 AM
This is a first for new england: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4271974,-71.073428,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRokmvo84Gh-UmPDmPdcrw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on March 14, 2021, 12:35:34 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 14, 2021, 11:22:30 AM
This is a first for new england: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4271974,-71.073428,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRokmvo84Gh-UmPDmPdcrw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I was thinking that they could have used a normal FYA on the direction with the dedicated left turn lane, and put the FYA doghouse on the opposing side with the shared left/thru approach, to prevent phase skip yellow trap. The configuration shown here could still yellow trap with phase skip. Interesting how a FYA doghouse was chosen for an approach over just using a standard FYA configuration...

Is the FYA portion of the doghouse bimodal (steady green arrow/flashing yellow arrow)?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on March 14, 2021, 01:24:50 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 01:35:28 AM
For MO. After the MO 340 pilot program, they've been popping up in more locations.  Specifically in the St Louis area, MoDOT maintained routes had a mass replacement program in the mid 2010s to replace doghouses with the FYA. Some routes that are mostly FYA for permissive (3 section) or protected-permissive (4 section) now are 30, 340, 366, 100 and 180. US 67 has a notable section through Kirkwood that still uses doghouses, but otherwise, it's mostly FYA too.

Kirkwood replaced their signals on US 61-67 with flashing yellow arrows a year or two ago.  The new signals are also horizontally mounted mounted, and I think the mast arms were of the decorative variety.

There may still be the odd signal at US 61-67 and Mehl Avenue in South County where the NB doghouse was replaced and the southbound was not. (https://goo.gl/maps/qVexjSWRgmPkrtyU7)

MoDOT also upgraded many of the signals on MO 231 and at the interchanges along I-55 with FYA's.  At least on Streetview it doesn't look like they have changed most of the signals on MO 267 yet.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 14, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 14, 2021, 12:35:34 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 14, 2021, 11:22:30 AM
This is a first for new england: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4271974,-71.073428,3a,60y,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stRokmvo84Gh-UmPDmPdcrw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I was thinking that they could have used a normal FYA on the direction with the dedicated left turn lane, and put the FYA doghouse on the opposing side with the shared left/thru approach, to prevent phase skip yellow trap. The configuration shown here could still yellow trap with phase skip. Interesting how a FYA doghouse was chosen for an approach over just using a standard FYA configuration...

Is the FYA portion of the doghouse bimodal (steady green arrow/flashing yellow arrow)?
Yeah, it was a weird choice.

Yea it is a green arrow/flashing yellow arrow hybrid. I'm planning on filming this light soon


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 14, 2021, 10:16:10 PM
I wonder if maybe the plan was for northbound Commercial St to use a shared left/straight lane, with a right-only to eastbound Pleasant St? They may have changed lane configurations late in the game but declined to change the signalization design as it technically still worked. The shared left/straight lane would have necessitated some form of bimodal FYA assuming they wanted to use an FYA signal.

I am basing my hypothesis off the design of the street; the straight lane must jog left to keep going straight. Plus the double yellow lines are perfectly opposite each other, which more often than not is an indication of two lanes that also allow straight-ahead movements (if possibly in addition to left turns).

The current setup definitely does not need that bimodal 5-section FYA. A regular FYA signal would have been fine.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on March 14, 2021, 11:00:24 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
I saw some FYAs on OH 747 in West Chester today. Apparently, they were there since last April  (https://www.wvxu.org/post/odot-testing-new-turn-signals-along-route-747-butler-county#stream/0)as part of an ODOT pilot project. Could probably dig out the dashcam footage and post some pictures of them here later. They were 3 section FYAs, with the flashing yellow sharing the same middle section with the solid yellow. They took me by surprise a bit, as I'm used to the 4 section ones that other agencies like MoDOT uses for protected-permissive.
Besides that, there's a couple of one-offs in my area, like Tylersville Rd and US 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3518028,-84.3212307,3a,25.2y,293.99h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGPJ9YOx-kFB66wA7t3ae5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and OH 741 and Bethany Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3773602,-84.2884646,3a,75y,59.42h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu8i0T0fbxr04kLNHWy2qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (those 2 are the standard 4 section FYAs).

The Mason ones are among very interesting mishmash of doghouses and FYAs.  There seem to be very few FYAs in Ohio so far.  I was quite surprised to see it yesterday.  Indiana, on the other hand, seems to be all-in on changing for them.
Edit: Went out today and found the FYAs on OH 747 that's part of the ODOT pilot program. Here's one of them below. Quality isn't that great because I converted the dashcam footage to a GIF.
(https://i.imgur.com/bwnsTOH.gif)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 15, 2021, 07:32:21 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 14, 2021, 11:00:24 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 09:08:37 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on February 21, 2021, 08:49:44 PM
Quote from: PurdueBill on February 21, 2021, 08:39:04 PM
I saw my first Ohio FYA yesterday in Stow on Fishcreek Road.  Previously there was a 3-way intersection (https://goo.gl/maps/NW9iE4bm5g1V7NM47) at the entrance to Meijer/Aldi/former Macy's but now there is a 4-way intersection where there will be a large Summa medical building.  Fishcreek now has operating FYA assemblies, and the driveways have what appear to be protected lefts (which could be a pain in the ass really; I wonder if it will be necessary vs. FYAs for those approaches too--they are 3-head left turn signals so probably protected ones).  Could not get a picture yesterday but will be back there.  Everyone has seen FYAs before.  They were flashing as I approached and turned in to Meijer.  Everything else similar has doghouses still around there; it will be interesting to see if anything changes.  There are a number of instances in Cuyahoga Falls and Stow of even recently-instealled doghouses and of protected left signals with red balls which I wonder if might be changed sometime.  Being Ohio, I doubt it, but who knows.  This FYA came out of nowhere.
I saw some FYAs on OH 747 in West Chester today. Apparently, they were there since last April  (https://www.wvxu.org/post/odot-testing-new-turn-signals-along-route-747-butler-county#stream/0)as part of an ODOT pilot project. Could probably dig out the dashcam footage and post some pictures of them here later. They were 3 section FYAs, with the flashing yellow sharing the same middle section with the solid yellow. They took me by surprise a bit, as I'm used to the 4 section ones that other agencies like MoDOT uses for protected-permissive.
Besides that, there's a couple of one-offs in my area, like Tylersville Rd and US 42 (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3518028,-84.3212307,3a,25.2y,293.99h,87.96t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGPJ9YOx-kFB66wA7t3ae5w!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) and OH 741 and Bethany Rd (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.3773602,-84.2884646,3a,75y,59.42h,85.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sRu8i0T0fbxr04kLNHWy2qQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656) (those 2 are the standard 4 section FYAs).

The Mason ones are among very interesting mishmash of doghouses and FYAs.  There seem to be very few FYAs in Ohio so far.  I was quite surprised to see it yesterday.  Indiana, on the other hand, seems to be all-in on changing for them.
Edit: Went out today and found the FYAs on OH 747 that's part of the ODOT pilot program. Here's one of them below. Quality isn't that great because I converted the dashcam footage to a GIF.


While it is certainly cheaper to convert a RA-YA-GA to a 3 aspect FYA signal by having the middle section flash (it would seem to only require a software change for the controller) I don't like it since I perceive a definite safety loss in the arrangement.  Perhaps the purpose of the pilot isn't simply to measure people's understanding of the FYA itself (as so many other states have already done that with demonstrated safety benefits) but rather to measure people's understanding of a 3 aspect FYA and whether they do in fact properly perceive the change from flashing YA to steady YA.

While there are a number of good reasons for FYA treatment, my view is that the main unique benefit is a safe way of allowing permissive left turns for the side opposite a lagging left, without producing a yellow trap.  The way that the 4 aspect FYA (and the 3 aspect RA-FYA-YA signal if there is no protected green) achieves that is by requiring drivers to focus solely on the 4 aspect FYA singal (and ignore the adjacent thru signal) when judging whether opposing traffic is bound to stop for a red light.  THe FYA signal in my line of sight is geared directly to the opposing signal, I see FYA when opposing traffic is green, I see a steady YA when they see a steady yellow, and I see a red arrow when they see a red orb.

So the key question for this Ohio pilot, assuming it is used opposite to a lagging left, is whether drivers do in fact perceive the change from flashing yellow to steady yellow without an aspect change, independent of the adjacent thru signals.  If they do not, then we have the "perceived yellow trap" problem that was discussed on this thread years ago and it won't be safe.  In such a case, these signals will only be used in contexts where both sides are leading lefts and in that case, IMO, you might as well use doghouses instead.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on March 15, 2021, 02:04:37 PM
Quote from: mrsman on March 15, 2021, 07:32:21 AM
While it is certainly cheaper to convert a RA-YA-GA to a 3 aspect FYA signal by having the middle section flash (it would seem to only require a software change for the controller) I don't like it since I perceive a definite safety loss in the arrangement.  Perhaps the purpose of the pilot isn't simply to measure people's understanding of the FYA itself (as so many other states have already done that with demonstrated safety benefits) but rather to measure people's understanding of a 3 aspect FYA and whether they do in fact properly perceive the change from flashing YA to steady YA.

While there are a number of good reasons for FYA treatment, my view is that the main unique benefit is a safe way of allowing permissive left turns for the side opposite a lagging left, without producing a yellow trap.  The way that the 4 aspect FYA (and the 3 aspect RA-FYA-YA signal if there is no protected green) achieves that is by requiring drivers to focus solely on the 4 aspect FYA singal (and ignore the adjacent thru signal) when judging whether opposing traffic is bound to stop for a red light.  THe FYA signal in my line of sight is geared directly to the opposing signal, I see FYA when opposing traffic is green, I see a steady YA when they see a steady yellow, and I see a red arrow when they see a red orb.

So the key question for this Ohio pilot, assuming it is used opposite to a lagging left, is whether drivers do in fact perceive the change from flashing yellow to steady yellow without an aspect change, independent of the adjacent thru signals.  If they do not, then we have the "perceived yellow trap" problem that was discussed on this thread years ago and it won't be safe.  In such a case, these signals will only be used in contexts where both sides are leading lefts and in that case, IMO, you might as well use doghouses instead.
I had to check the footage again if the opposite side had a lagging left, but the answer to that is no, as after the FYA (and the through signals for this matter) turns red, the cross street gets their green. Here's a part where the FYA turns to a solid yellow. After rewatching it a couple of times, it's sometimes difficult to see the change without relying on the through signals. Not sure how other drivers react to it, guess we have to wait until the results of the study gets released, and what ODOT will do afterwards.
(https://i.imgur.com/wGgVLNM.gif)

Also going to leave this here. The ODOT brochure (https://www.transportation.ohio.gov/wps/wcm/connect/gov/57d634c5-1c1c-4d2d-89ca-c80a26fb6bea/Flashing+Yellow+Arrow+Fact+Sheet.pdf?MOD=AJPERES&CONVERT_TO=url&CACHEID=ROOTWORKSPACE.Z18_M1HGGIK0N0JO00QO9DDDDM3000-57d634c5-1c1c-4d2d-89ca-c80a26fb6bea-n8JPf1I) for this pilot program also uses the 3 section FYA, so this may be what they will be going with. I'm still not sure why they chose the 3 section over the standard 4 section, since they're replacing the doghouses anyways (the section under the study used to have doghouses (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.351274,-84.4613639,3a,75y,353.03h,88.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sNbxJoUH_PDBWcBXzBNpS8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)). If they're really trying to cut costs with signal replacement, they would turn the middle left section of the doghouse into a FYA.

Last thing to note, the 3 section with the RA-YA-FYA arrangement also exists in this section
(https://i.imgur.com/bvpLUHI.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 15, 2021, 06:59:49 PM
If there was a constraint and I was limited to doing an FYA signal with only 3 aspects, I would prefer a bimodal green/yellow on the bottom aspect so that a protected green arrow and a permitted flashing yellow arrow were shown on the same aspect and the steady yellow indicating that the phase is terminating be in the middle.  This would help drivers be more aware of the change from flashing yellow to steady yellow.  This is also what most FYA doghouses do, utilizing the left two aspects for steady yellow arrow and green/flashing yellow arrow.

From the ODOT brochure, I notice the following warning:

Always watch the signal for your turn lane . . . not the
signals or traffic in other lanes.

Definitely an important rule to follow to avoid a potential yellow trap situation.  The difficulty is putting this into practice.

The video linked on the previous post makes it clear, at least for the intersection in the video, that opposing traffic does not have a lagging left.  The steady yellow arrow and the adjacent yellow ball indicate to me that opposing traffic is also seeing a yellow at the same time.  So in this case, watching the adjacent signals will not be a problem - as drivers frequent the intersection they will realize that the steady yellow arrow comes at the same time as adjacent yellow.  If it is easier to watch the adjacent signals to be aware of the change, then that's what they will do.

The problem, of course, is that drivers cannot apply a similar logic to other intersections.  Doing a similar manouver of focusing on adjacent signals where opposing traffic has lagging left will definitely lead to a yellow trap collision.

I live in MD, which is a state that still refuses to incorporate the FYA.  We have a flashing red arrow instead.  So far, I have not yet seen one in action that is opposite a lagging left.  But I can tell you of the one nearest my home which operates as leading lefts on both sides.  There used to be doghouses on both approaches, and IMO they should have stayed as doghouses.  Now, the operation of the signal, southbound to eastbound, is as follows:

1) Green arrow - Red orb (both sides have a leading green arrow simultaneously)
2) Green arrow - green orb (the southbound left is heavier and more protection time is give to it, while the opposite side is timed out)
3) Yellow arrow - green orb
4) Steady red arrow - green orb (there is a brief 10 second steady red arrow condition when opposing nortbound traffic begins to get the green, there was no equivalent to this when doghouses were used)
5) Flashing red arrow - green orb (general permissive left turn phase.  The flashing red arrow, with accompanying signage, means that you have to come to a complete stop before proceeding with your turn.  This is annoying, especially with good visibilty that lets you see that there is no oncoming traffic.  Why must every car treat this like a stop sign?)
6) Solid red arrow - yellow orb (As is common with simultaneous leading left, the permissive turn will end at the same time as adjacent thru traffic.  If this were a 4 aspect FYA it would be a solid yellow arrow.   But with a solid red arrow, you are technically not allowed to make the turn!  Most people do treat this as if it were a doghouse and use the yellow orb phase to make sure that opposing traffic stops before making their turn.  But there is no good warning that the signal is coming to an end beause there is no yellow arrow phase to help terminate the permissive turn.  This is awful.)
7) Solid red arrow - red orb (After a brief all red, it is now cross-traffic's turn.)

As a roadgeek, I am probably more aware of yellow trap issues than the average driver.  Fortunately, the one intersection with flashing red arrow that I frequent is leading left, so there is no yellow trap issue.  [I have no way of knowing if that is true for all of the other flashing red arrow setups.]  But the way that it is setup, without a clear warning of the end of the permissive phase and with essentially a legal prohbition to complete the turn, drivers are basically forced to watch the adjacent signals to use the yellow orb as the warning that the phase is coming to an end.  In that small regard, Ohio is at least better in that the yellow arrow will still permit you to wait and turn later.  But it is still a problem if people get used to the idea that it is easier to track the phase changes of the arrow signal by watching the adjacent thru.  That does not work if the opposing side is lagging left or if there are other forms of preemption in the signal.

I should note that the above signal that I discussed in MD is also right next to a fire station, but I am unsure if signal preemption has any effect here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: andrepoiy on March 22, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 23, 2021, 01:05:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 22, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.

I would guess that's his point. It's extremely rare but most signal controllers likely allow a green arrow "mid phase" after a very lengthy amount of time. The concept of there never being anyone on the side street for dozens of minutes is very unlikely, but there has to be a failsafe somehow. Although the failsafe could be "allow green arrow if no cars occupy the opposing left turn lane".

Although WSDOT specifically bans lagging green arrows with regular 4/5 section "yield on green" signals (as opposed to FYA signals), I have in fact witnessed exactly what Bitmapped witnessed here in Washington State anyways. Heavy left turns, no side street traffic; the signal eventually cycled to a green arrow for that left turn.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on March 23, 2021, 11:42:03 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 23, 2021, 01:05:27 AM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 22, 2021, 01:33:11 PM
Quote from: Bitmapped on March 22, 2021, 01:28:02 PM
Quote from: andrepoiy on March 20, 2021, 09:59:16 PM
In Ontario, I have observed that signal phasing is set up at most intersections that a yellow trap would never occur. That is because the left-turn arrow only turns on after cross traffic's light just turned red. It would never turn on at any other point during the cycle at most intersections.

Perhaps that's why we never saw the need to replace our signals with flashing yellow arrows or equivalent.

You can still have a yellow trap even with lead-only turn arrows. WVDOH uses leading arrows almost exclusively, with many signals set up so that you'll get an arrow if you wait long enough **without cycling to the side-street phase.** While this helps traffic flow, it does introduce a yellow trap problem. I encountered this myself at the signal turning in to the Elkins Sheetz. I was waiting to turn left and my side's signals went to yellow. I went to complete my turn and was surprised when the oncoming traffic still have a green ball and now green arrow as well. I quickly realized what was happening and there was no crash, but there easily could have been.

Yes, and that doesn't occur here in Ontario at most intersections, at least by my observations.  The arrow would never turn on until after the side street goes. Although I had never been in a situation where the left turn queue is long enough but there are no vehicles on the side street, so maybe it can occur, but is so rare that I still haven't seen one despite living here for my whole life.

I would guess that's his point. It's extremely rare but most signal controllers likely allow a green arrow "mid phase" after a very lengthy amount of time. The concept of there never being anyone on the side street for dozens of minutes is very unlikely, but there has to be a failsafe somehow. Although the failsafe could be "allow green arrow if no cars occupy the opposing left turn lane".

Although WSDOT specifically bans lagging green arrows with regular 4/5 section "yield on green" signals (as opposed to FYA signals), I have in fact witnessed exactly what Bitmapped witnessed here in Washington State anyways. Heavy left turns, no side street traffic; the signal eventually cycled to a green arrow for that left turn.

It would seem like something like that would be an oversight.  If you are using 4 or 5 section signals, and both sides are leading left only, then a left arrow can only display after both sides of the main road have gone to red.  It can be a brief red, and side street traffic does not necessarily have to get a green, but you need a red to precede the green arrow to avoid yellow trap.

It is an unusual circumstance, though.  In my experience, with permissive protected green arrows, the main street will rest on green and will not go to red unless there is a "call" from the side street.  So there could be many cars waiting to turn left, but the arrow is not triggered because the signal never goes to red.  The left turners will just have to find a gap during the green orb phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 24, 2021, 01:33:53 AM
Quote from: mrsman on March 23, 2021, 11:42:03 PM
It would seem like something like that would be an oversight.  If you are using 4 or 5 section signals, and both sides are leading left only, then a left arrow can only display after both sides of the main road have gone to red.  It can be a brief red, and side street traffic does not necessarily have to get a green, but you need a red to precede the green arrow to avoid yellow trap.

It is an unusual circumstance, though.  In my experience, with permissive protected green arrows, the main street will rest on green and will not go to red unless there is a "call" from the side street.  So there could be many cars waiting to turn left, but the arrow is not triggered because the signal never goes to red.  The left turners will just have to find a gap during the green orb phase.

Well, and let's be real: there's truly no need for an arrow unless traffic is insanely saturated. And if oncoming traffic is really that saturated, it's unlikely that a signal would be installed at the location unless there was also some side-street traffic, so that brief red is almost certain to happen under 99.9% of circumstances.

Still, it's no issue for the FYA signal. It's been a while since I've seen a new protected-permissive solid green signal installed anyways.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
....and over 10 years later, I still haven't seen a standard FYA signal in NJ. Yeah, I know about the right turn FYA in Piscataway: https://goo.gl/maps/q9eTP4bS14XzRSt18

NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on April 19, 2021, 05:39:54 PM
Well LOL, ya gotta understand that New Jersey is a little behind the times in some ways. They don't allow self-service gas stations either. All gas is still pumped the old-fashioned way by attendants.

But seriously I do like New Jersey's standard supplemental head on the reverse side of the mast-arm. That's a good standard practice.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 19, 2021, 08:21:01 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on April 19, 2021, 05:39:54 PM
But seriously I do like New Jersey's standard supplemental head on the reverse side of the mast-arm. That's a good standard practice.

I agree with this. I think it's a great practice. More states should do this, even at smaller intersections.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 09:01:15 PM
Yeah, kinda noticed it was missing when I was in Florida. There are some intersections where it would be a benefit.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 20, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

And the occasional 5-section signal as well, usually in doghouse form (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7329399,-75.0079764,3a,20.2y,65.33h,99.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKqXmzN0pKTYikv0f4a5YBQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)?

Off-topic, but at that same intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7331131,-75.0077774,3a,16.2y,215.84h,98.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIuW6Qpafh4D_CpAEghjE8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on April 20, 2021, 09:32:06 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
....and over 10 years later, I still haven't seen a standard FYA signal in NJ. Yeah, I know about the right turn FYA in Piscataway: https://goo.gl/maps/q9eTP4bS14XzRSt18

NJ isn't the only state to exclude FYAs, although there aren't too many states left that don't.

QuoteNJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

Just to note: Your example is actually a SJTA (Atlantic City Expressway) install, who either maintains jurisdiction or turned over maintenance to Camden County as it's on CR 689.

The 4 element, bi-light arrow is standard, but not exclusive.  US 30 at Copley Road (near 295) is an example where you can find standard 3 element signals, 4 elements with the bi-LED arrow, a 5 element doghouse, and a 5 element tower at the same intersection! https://goo.gl/maps/cwPmNGjg4L9JxeCF6 .  As in your example above, the doghouse and tower are used due to the restrictive sight lenses used.   And while most counties also use bi-model lenses, Burlington County tends to stick with doghouses.

Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 20, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Off-topic, but at that same intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7331131,-75.0077774,3a,16.2y,215.84h,98.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIuW6Qpafh4D_CpAEghjE8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.

Correct.  Not often done in NJ, this is a rare example of lagging lefts being used.

A quick history of this interchange:  When it didn't exist, the overpass was a single lane wide in each direction. When the interchange was built, the overpass was widened to 4 lanes (2 per direction), with the left lane being a straight/left turn lane. The lagging left was used to clear out the lane at the end of each cycle.  This was built when Cross Keys Road was on a growth spurt, with much of the road being widened to 2 lanes each direction in the general area. Someone greatly underestimated the amount of traffic trying to get thru this area, and a few years later the overpass was widened again, to 6 lanes wide (3 per direction), which allowed for 2 straight lanes and an exclusive left turn lane in each direction.  Even though at that point they could've switched to the more standard leading left turn arrow, they kept the lagging left arrows. 

The current, biggest issue at this interchange is the off ramp from the ACX East can back up thru the toll plaza, and can take more than a cycle to get thru.  IMO it would be best to add a 3rd lane on the ramp between the toll plaza and the light, split for Left, Left/Right and Right Turns.  I think the ramp is squeezed in as is, with the highway on the left and (I believe) an Atlantic City Electric utility company access road for power lines to the right.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 20, 2021, 03:12:19 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on April 20, 2021, 04:05:49 AM
Quote from: NJRoadfan on April 19, 2021, 12:26:12 PM
NJDOT standard remains 4-element signals with bi-LED left arrows which county and municipal road agencies also install (and seen above).

And the occasional 5-section signal as well, usually in doghouse form (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7329399,-75.0079764,3a,20.2y,65.33h,99.02t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKqXmzN0pKTYikv0f4a5YBQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192)?

Off-topic, but at that same intersection (https://www.google.com/maps/@39.7331131,-75.0077774,3a,16.2y,215.84h,98.71t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sIuW6Qpafh4D_CpAEghjE8A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192) I linked above, what is the point of the W25-1 sign on the leg where left turns are prohibited (left turn leads down the wrong way) and there is no permissive left turn to yellow trap? I'm guessing the opposing leg with the doghouses use lagging lefts.

It seems that it is NJ practice to put the W25-1 sign on the leg opposite a lagging left even if that turn is prohibited.  You are correct that the main purpose of such sign was as a signed warning of a potential yellow trap situation, but that would not exist here, since the yellow trapped left turn would be illegal (against a one-way offramp).  However, there are still some safety benefits to knowing that opposing traffic has an extended green - mostly to benefit people doing illegal actions:
-informs peds who may want to illegally cross B-CK (Berlin-Cross Keys) when they begin to see a yellow or a red for B-CK traffic that half the street still has a green
- informs people who may be making an illegal u-turn that their illegal u-turn is yellow trapped
- informs peoplw who may be making a left at a driveway right before the intersection that they should not rely on the upcoming signal because of potential yellow trap.

The sign is also the lagging left corollary to "DELAYED GREEN" that is also frequently posted at many places opposite a leading left.  The purpose of that is to warn drivers not to go just because you see opposing traffic go.  While it is true that cross-traffic has a red, you also have a red in order to provide for a leading protected left in the opposite direction.  To some extent, there may be similar concerns for lagging lefts as well.

So the sign is not strictly needed, but NJ feels that its a good idea to have the sign.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jamess on April 23, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
I saw this video of a crash on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/mwf7i8/so_much_going_on_here_shaken_up_am_i_the_idiot/

One of the replies had an interesting theory:

QuoteIntersection of 55th St and US Hwy 63 in Rochester, MN. I just looked it up on Google Street View. There are two turn lanes, and there's a flashing yellow light during the cycle where those cars can turn against traffic (there's a sign overhead indicating that left turn must yield on flashing yellow).

Which sort of explains the whole thing. We have flashing yellows around me for left turns, but I've never seen one on a double turn. And sometimes I see cars get very confused when they look up and see a yellow light. The dark SUV that causes the wreck probably saw several cars in front and beside them turn, approached the intersection, looked up to see a yellow light (wasn't paying attention enough to see that it was flashing) and thought the light cycle was ending, OP would stop at the hanging yellow-to-red light, and they wanted to get through the intersection as their light was turning red. But it wasn't turning red, and OP sill had a green light. Dangerously designed intersection plus inattentive driver = crunch.

I think this theory could be correct, and does show a danger to this kind of install. Lots of people see yellow as hurry up and make it through.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 23, 2021, 12:49:26 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/56syoz.jpg)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 23, 2021, 02:52:11 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 23, 2021, 12:49:26 AM
(https://i.imgflip.com/56syoz.jpg)

ok tradephoric
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 23, 2021, 10:53:10 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 12:05:22 AM
I saw this video of a crash on reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/IdiotsInCars/comments/mwf7i8/so_much_going_on_here_shaken_up_am_i_the_idiot/

One of the replies had an interesting theory:

QuoteIntersection of 55th St and US Hwy 63 in Rochester, MN. I just looked it up on Google Street View. There are two turn lanes, and there's a flashing yellow light during the cycle where those cars can turn against traffic (there's a sign overhead indicating that left turn must yield on flashing yellow).

Which sort of explains the whole thing. We have flashing yellows around me for left turns, but I've never seen one on a double turn. And sometimes I see cars get very confused when they look up and see a yellow light. The dark SUV that causes the wreck probably saw several cars in front and beside them turn, approached the intersection, looked up to see a yellow light (wasn't paying attention enough to see that it was flashing) and thought the light cycle was ending, OP would stop at the hanging yellow-to-red light, and they wanted to get through the intersection as their light was turning red. But it wasn't turning red, and OP sill had a green light. Dangerously designed intersection plus inattentive driver = crunch.

I think this theory could be correct, and does show a danger to this kind of install. Lots of people see yellow as hurry up and make it through.

This was more the fault of the drivers than the intersection.  The left turner should not have gone without making sure that the driver would stop.  But the driver definitely had the "last clear chance" to avoid the accident, had he been going slower.  To see all those drivers ahead making the left turn should be an indication that there may be a whole string of cars doing it.  And the pedestrian there just adds to the mess.  That ped could have very easily been killed by even attempting to cross there when the light was still green.  This driver did not appear to make any attempt to slow down at all.  (Contributory negligence)

At the same time, the double left certainly played a slight role.  The driver in the inner left turn lane was stopped and waiting (probably seeing that the thru driver was not coming to a stop).  That driver's vehicle could certainly be a bit of a visual block to the left turning SUV who got in the crash.  Then again, I've seen similar situations with single left turns where a whole slew of cars can turn because of a very large gap, even while the light is still green, that I really can't place the blame on the intersection here.  It seems like the thru driver was 70% fault and the left turner was 30% fault, IMO.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 23, 2021, 11:38:35 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 23, 2021, 02:52:11 AM
ok tradephoric

Yeah fair, but I genuinely think there's a disconnect there. There's very little evidence that most (i.e. well designed) double left turns with permissive phasing are actually dangerous, but there seems to be a lot of data showing larger, multi-lane roundabouts to be, at the very least, crash hot spots. Yet the latter is a far more popular road project. :-/
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on April 24, 2021, 09:46:17 AM
Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on April 24, 2021, 10:22:37 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on April 24, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

Much of the early part of this thread dealt with this question. The point of nuance seems to be whether the arrow signal imposes its meaning only on the movement it describes, or if it imposes the meaning of a non-arrow signal, but only on those motorists making the movement it describes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on April 24, 2021, 10:52:00 PM
Quote from: empirestate on April 24, 2021, 10:49:44 AM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Whats the reason they went with flashing yellow and not flashing red?

Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

...but if I see a flashing yellow arrow, it means I have to stop and they get to go?

Seems conflicting.

Much of the early part of this thread dealt with this question. The point of nuance seems to be whether the arrow signal imposes its meaning only on the movement it describes, or if it imposes the meaning of a non-arrow signal, but only on those motorists making the movement it describes.

Right.  And a lot of that discussion did go over the fact that some places were very concerned with that meaning.  And that the FYA could be misconstrued as giving the turning movement the right of way, even though opposing traffic and peds would generally have the right of way over turning traffic with a FYA. 

Because of all of this, some states were hesitant to adopt the FYA and have indeed adopted FRA instead, like Delaware and Maryland.  But in most of the other states, with good signage explaining the meaning, a good education campaign, and most importantly many years of drivers getting used to the new signals and figuring out what they mean  -- it was determined that a FYA signal can accomplish what is needed and drivers properly understand that they need to focus on their signal and that they need to yield on FYA.

On top of this, one can see how painful it actually is to have a flashing red arrow.  I mentioned in other places how it is a far worse indication for the permissive left, since each car is required to make a full stop, even when there is a large gap in opposing traffic.  Furthermore, when the permissive phase ends, there is usually no yellow arrow that follows.  It goes from flashing red to solid red.  The one of these that I come in contact with the most (Georgia at Arcola in Wheaton, MD) consists of a leading left.  So the signal goes from green arrow - yellow arrow - brief solid red arrow - flashing red arrow (while adjacent thru has green) - solid red arrow (while adjacent thru has yellow) - solid red arrow (red orb).  As we all know how common it is to make a turn at the end of the phase if there was no gap big enough to turn, you see that during the yellow orb, there is a solid red arrow - which means that making the turn at this time is technically illegal - a big problem.  Fortunately, as this intersection is a leading left, I treat it as though it had a doghouse signal (which it used to) and most other drivers as well.  If there are cars sitting in the intersection, they make the left at yellow orb, despite the solid red arrow.

So all in all, using the flashing yellow arrow has proven to be the correct signal to use for the permissive turn with yielding.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on April 25, 2021, 08:56:44 AM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
There may not be enough oncoming traffic to last the entire length of the green arrow phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 25, 2021, 12:13:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 24, 2021, 09:46:17 AM
Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk

That's very neat! I don't recall seeing any examples of flashing yellow arrows (used in the way we use them!) outside of the US before. Gotta wonder if they were inspired by US signalization strategies or not.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 25, 2021, 02:02:29 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 25, 2021, 12:13:42 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on April 24, 2021, 09:46:17 AM
Flashing amber arrows exist in Ireland I guess!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIW-ZjrO7wk

That's very neat! I don't recall seeing any examples of flashing yellow arrows (used in the way we use them!) outside of the US before. Gotta wonder if they were inspired by US signalization strategies or not.

Kinda reminds me of this video I saw a few years ago (not sure if this is the UK or Ireland) of FYA being used on a slip ramp:

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 25, 2021, 03:19:24 PM
^^^
That would be Ireland. Giveaway being the shape of the arrow, the signal housing design, and the lack of any yellow number plates on the rear of the vehicles.

Looks like they've been using the FYA for a little while.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jamess on April 25, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

Quote from: US 89 on April 24, 2021, 10:22:37 AM
But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on April 25, 2021, 05:36:26 PM


Quote from: jamess on April 25, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

This is probably covered in more detail somewhere upthread, but... The FYA display is typically tied to the opposing green, to indicate that the left turns can yield on opposing green (whether there's a gap or not). There's no need to have it display red initially, because there can be gaps...and then this would be no better than a protected signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 25, 2021, 06:10:32 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street.
how on earth do you pronounce that street name
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: US 89 on April 25, 2021, 06:31:21 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 25, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: US 89 on April 24, 2021, 10:22:37 AM
But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.

Disagree. Do we make drivers stop when turning left on a green ball at a light without any sort of extra left-turn signals?

Slow down, sure, but requiring a complete stop is probably unnecessary in the vast majority of cases. A flashing red would also require drivers to make that stop behind the stop line which just wastes the time of left-turning drivers and limits the amount of cars that can make it through the intersection. I'm no civil engineer but as far as I'm concerned if someplace really has enough pedestrians or oncoming traffic to warrant a full stop for left turns all the time, it's probably better to just make it protected-only.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on April 26, 2021, 08:42:02 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on April 25, 2021, 06:10:32 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street.
how on earth do you pronounce that street name

it was a an 'x' in brackets, forgot this thing uses the brackets.. should have escaped them or something...
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on April 26, 2021, 02:13:44 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

No, it means you have to use caution.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on April 26, 2021, 09:03:36 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 26, 2021, 02:13:44 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 23, 2021, 06:21:54 PM
Like if I see a flashing yellow at an intersection, it means I get to go and the other street has a stop.

No, it means you have to use caution.

Not "no", but "also" it means you have to use caution. That's what it denotes, but what it connotes is that the intersecting road has a flashing red–and thus, a stop. So in that way, it means both.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on April 27, 2021, 11:24:40 AM
At an intersection–which |jamess| specified–yes, it means the cross street has a stop sign.

But, at any location other than an intersection, a flashing yellow ball does not mean that.  At a crosswalk, in fact, you might have to stop while the [pedestrian] cross-traffic gets to go.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: I-35 on April 27, 2021, 02:53:54 PM
Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jamess on April 27, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: I-35 on April 27, 2021, 02:53:54 PM
Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: empirestate on April 27, 2021, 08:54:48 PM
Quote from: kphoger on April 27, 2021, 11:24:40 AM
At an intersection–which |jamess| specified–yes, it means the cross street has a stop sign.

But, at any location other than an intersection, a flashing yellow ball does not mean that.  At a crosswalk, in fact, you might have to stop while the [pedestrian] cross-traffic gets to go.

That could happen at an intersection, too. So the point is that the flashing ball means many things, not just one–and even at one location, it means different things. And the gist of the discussion was that, while a yellow ball at a crossroads means that you have priority over the traffic crossing your path but are not fully protected from it (hence the need for caution), with a yellow arrow the traffic crossing your path has priority over you, and thus there's a different need for caution.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on April 28, 2021, 06:39:46 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 27, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: I-35 on April 27, 2021, 02:53:54 PM
Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.

Certainly both of you realize that time of day phasing (http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_reports/pdf/19-R10.pdf) is an option with flashing yellow arrows. A couple cities around me have red arrows during peak rush hour at certain intersections. With the amount of variability in the operation, IMO, the flashing yellow arrow signal should be the only left turn display installed, as virtually zero left turns need fully protected phasing all day. But many arguably need full protection part-time, so you just disable the FYA during those hours.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: paulthemapguy on April 30, 2021, 12:06:38 PM
In a presentation I watched, the DuPage County (IL) engineer has confirmed that they are looking to implement their first FYA signals soon.  Not sure if this is news to local people concerned with traffic safety, but it is news to me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Scott5114 on April 30, 2021, 09:02:47 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on April 28, 2021, 06:39:46 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 27, 2021, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: I-35 on April 27, 2021, 02:53:54 PM
Put me in the "like it and hate it" camp.  I like FYA's at 2:00 in the morning when no traffic is around, and I hate them on six-lane arterials with double left turns where you can't see oncoming traffic until it's almost too late to safely negotiate the turn.  I guess the fact that so many FYA are replacing protected lefts is the real issue I have.

Yeah thats where I stand. No issue with them from 10pm to 5am. But providing the option at rush hour is begging for risky behavior.

Certainly both of you realize that time of day phasing (http://www.virginiadot.org/vtrc/main/online_reports/pdf/19-R10.pdf) is an option with flashing yellow arrows.

I mean, yeah, it's an option, but if your DOT doesn't exercise it...

Likewise, going to all-flash mode late at night is an option too. But a lot of DOTs don't seem to want to do that, either.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 01, 2021, 03:10:04 AM
I can think of many practical reasons to adopt time-of-day phasing. I find it laughable that almost all agencies will happily implement an interim red arrow following the protected left, but would not consider extending that red arrow throughout the length of the through phase during exceptionally heavy traffic periods. If not to at least protect pedestrians during the initial part of a walk phase.

On the flip-side, with modern actuation technology, I do not see any major technical benefit to all-flash modes.

edit: tired, couldn't make up my mind as to the point I wanted to make.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: UCFKnights on May 01, 2021, 10:14:41 PM
Quote from: jamess on April 25, 2021, 03:27:51 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on April 25, 2021, 07:09:26 AM
i guess what i really don't get about the fyas... is that it seems they come on at times when making a left is more or less impossible..

example. i'm in the NB left turn lane on
  • street. SB lanes get green light and green arrow. i'm shown an FYA. whats the point? there's no way anyone can make a left in the face of the oncoming traffic thats just starting from the light. seems like there should be a delay, at least until my side gets the green ball.
It seems like the FYA arent make use of traffic detection. Why not? If the detection camera/sensors sees there are vehicles, it shouldnt show the FYA.

Quote from: US 89 on April 24, 2021, 10:22:37 AM
But you don't have to stop on a flashing yellow arrow. All you have to do is yield to pedestrians and oncoming traffic... which you would also have to do making a left on a flashing yellow light.

Drivers are not able to both monitor oncoming traffic for a gap AND also monitor the sidewalk behind them for an oncoming bicyclist or pedestrian that will be entering the roadway when they begin their turn without coming to a stop.
In Orlando they have a few intersections where they are testing just that, trying to detect gaps in the traffic before bothering to provide a FYA. My rating of them would  be pretty poor: they give a red way more than is necessary for any safety, and its nice for a car or 2 to be able to go during the yellow/all red period to help get an extra car through the cycle. On top of that, when they don't fairly quickly give a FYA, people assume they aren't getting it, and stop paying attention, and when the FYA comes on, they just won't go. I wouldn't be against a LPI for the pedestrians, but I see little reason to not provide the FYA all the time, even if there is traffic, as various things can happen the signal just isn't going to account for. Ya know, be permissive unless there is a reason not to.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 02, 2021, 10:55:35 PM
This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 10:58:58 PM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 02, 2021, 10:55:35 PM
This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?
Yes. We have many here in North Carolina.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 03, 2021, 02:10:37 AM
Quote from: RestrictOnTheHanger on June 02, 2021, 10:55:35 PM
This intersection in Queens NYC has been updated in the past couple of weeks to incorporate split phasing using FYA (streetview not updated yet)

https://maps.app.goo.gl/LWVrKCDitKRgY1cE8

The left turns from Broadway/Grand Ave (side street) overlapped each other quite often since Queens Blvd is so wide. Now, s/b Broadway gets a green ball with FYA while n/b Grand Ave remains all red, even for left turns. Then Broadway goes all red and Grand Ave gets green ball/FYA.

During the vehicle split phase, the pedestrian phase runs as normal, hence the need for FYA instead of a green arrow. This new setup solves the problem of dangerous left turns while not impacting the heavy pedestrian traffic and avoiding yellow trap.

Does anywhere else use FYA like this for split phasing?

I have seen FYAs used for split-phased intersections exactly once. I actually filmed a video of it. It's in Federal Way, WA.

When a crossing is activated, the left turn across that crossing shows an FYA signal; the opposing direction has a full green orb + green arrow. Because of the offset nature of the intersection, it has to use split-phasing to prevent issues with through traffic overlapping with one-another. But since this issue is not apparent for traffic turning left, they innovated a bit and created what you see below:

https://youtu.be/qA7YCmfNhv4
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
Alright here's a brainstorm for everyone:

I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

(P.S. I'm not trying to debate that lagging lefts are worthwhile - they're absolutely needed to improve two-way coordination)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
Alright here's a brainstorm for everyone:

I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

(P.S. I'm not trying to debate that lagging lefts are worthwhile - they're absolutely needed to improve two-way coordination)

If it's in an area that mostly locals will be driving, they'll eventually learn. But the best option is to do what drivers expect: Provide a leading green arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 05, 2021, 01:43:58 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

I always thought this was a good thing. If you think you were skipped, you might actually be encouraged to try and find a gap. As opposed to those drivers who just sit and wait for the green arrow since they don't feel like turning through a gap.

In Vancouver, BC, it's common to disable the green arrow during off-peak hours since there is little operational advantage in providing a leading left in front of a few cars. It also increases the pedestrian walk cycle length. The traffic engineer in your story might lose his mind if he ever saw how things are up here.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 05, 2021, 07:46:53 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
Alright here's a brainstorm for everyone:

I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

(P.S. I'm not trying to debate that lagging lefts are worthwhile - they're absolutely needed to improve two-way coordination)

I'd be curious whether that same engineer has any 5-section PPLT displays where one side runs a lagging left, and how he feels about those. It's functionally the same thing, with again no readily-apparent indication that a protected left green arrow will come on at the end.

I can't really think of a way that existing signals can provide an "I see you" indication. You'd probably need a separate light element that could serve as a "call acknowledged" indicator (kinda like how on some newer pedestrian push buttons, an LED light illuminates after the button is pressed), but this probably would increase signal installation complexity and costs for insignificant gain. Like you said, solving a problem that doesn't really exist.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on June 05, 2021, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
the best option is to do what drivers expect: Provide a leading green arrow.

...please see the last sentence of my last post.  Leading lefts can not allow the ideal signal timing along corridors.

Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2021, 01:43:58 PM
it's common to disable the green arrow during off-peak hours
truth - if it were up to me this would be more common around here.  This is just more about customer complaints- balancing getting more phone calls with slightly improved signal timing.

Quote from: roadfro on June 05, 2021, 07:46:53 PM

I'd be curious whether that same engineer has any 5-section PPLT displays where one side runs a lagging left, and how he feels about those. It's functionally the same thing, with again no readily-apparent indication that a protected left green arrow will come on at the end.

I can't really think of a way that existing signals can provide an "I see you" indication. You'd probably need a separate light element that could serve as a "call acknowledged" indicator (kinda like how on some newer pedestrian push buttons, an LED light illuminates after the button is pressed), but this probably would increase signal installation complexity and costs for insignificant gain. Like you said, solving a problem that doesn't really exist.

Sure, those exist (for instance at some diamond interchanges) and that engineer HAS some lagging FYA - it's just a con that he pointed out (see the customer complaint comment above)

It would be cool if all signal heads had an "I see you", maybe some sort of backplate illumination.  I wonder if there would be a way to do that really cheaply.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 05, 2021, 11:27:56 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
Alright here's a brainstorm for everyone:

I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

(P.S. I'm not trying to debate that lagging lefts are worthwhile - they're absolutely needed to improve two-way coordination)

If it's in an area that mostly locals will be driving, they'll eventually learn. But the best option is to do what drivers expect: Provide a leading green arrow.
I disagree. Get them used to the new system. Lagging lefts are more efficient for everyone


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on June 06, 2021, 12:02:07 AM
Quote from: johndoe on June 05, 2021, 10:20:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 04, 2021, 09:20:40 PM
the best option is to do what drivers expect: Provide a leading green arrow.

...please see the last sentence of my last post.  Leading lefts can not allow the ideal signal timing along corridors.

You said we can't debate that, and I'm not. But there is a thing about driver expectations. Yes, standards change over time. And engineers that are used to doing it a certain way are often creatures of habit. If they aren't forced to change, they may not be willing to change.

So, an engineer has to decide...is it worth the trouble that may occur in additional accidents while motorists get used to a new system, or stick with what's tried and true, although signal progression may not be optimal?

Since motorists often take their current cues from watching cross traffic stop or their traffic lights change, that same cue from watching opposing traffic is a lot harder to determine.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 06, 2021, 12:36:30 AM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on June 06, 2021, 12:02:07 AM
So, an engineer has to decide...is it worth the trouble that may occur in additional accidents while motorists get used to a new system, or stick with what's tried and true, although signal progression may not be optimal?

Lead-lead signalization is not the only tried and true signal strategy. Many corridors across the US have used lead-lag signalization for years, if not decades. It's not a new thing, and neither are drivers feeling that they were skipped by a signal, permissive left or not, lead-lag or not. I genuinely don't understand how dropping lagging lefts would fix anything, since annoyed motorists are not really a thing that needs fixing.

I don't really understand what you mean by "additional accidents". Lead-lag causes more accidents while drivers get used to...waiting for a green arrow? Where have you witnessed this? The most I've witnessed is the occasional red light run as drivers think they were skipped and just turn through a gap anyways.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 06, 2021, 12:44:41 AM
Lead-lag is pretty common with left turns I've seen in the St Louis area, both protected and protected/permissive. If you drive through an area frequently, it's easy to tell which side gets the leading left, and which side gets the lagging left, as it's generally consistent.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on June 06, 2021, 01:07:22 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 06, 2021, 12:44:41 AM
Lead-lag is pretty common with left turns I've seen in the St Louis area, both protected and protected/permissive. If you drive through an area frequently, it's easy to tell which side gets the leading left, and which side gets the lagging left, as it's generally consistent.

In some places near my hometown, like South Portland, also both with protected only and beginning with FYA, on some corridors during the weekday rush hour, the lead-lag alternates depending on the time of day. IIRC, the peak direction gets the leading left and the non-peak direction gets the lagging left, but not sure if that is true or flipped around. Not sure if this kind of time of day lead-lag is common in other cities.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on June 06, 2021, 10:33:26 AM
@jeffandnicole: true, well said
Quote from: fwydriver405 on June 06, 2021, 01:07:22 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 06, 2021, 12:44:41 AM
... it's easy to tell which side gets the leading left, and which side gets the lagging left, as it's generally consistent.

... the lead-lag alternates depending on the time of day. IIRC, the peak direction gets the leading left and the non-peak direction gets the lagging left, but not sure if that is true or flipped around.

From what I've seen it's more about ensuring the two mainroad straight movements get "green bands" through the whole corridor (don't have to stop of they keep going straight).  So based on the cycle length (which is based on overall volumes) the lefts are really an afterthought, dictated by those straight platoons.  Sometimes the busy left will lead, sometimes lag.  But generally leading one and lagging the other makes those straight movements stop the least (depending on space to next signal, speed limit, etc). So certain times of day it may make most sense for the same movement to lead and later in the day lag.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on June 07, 2021, 03:40:50 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?

They already do it for right turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0347242,-79.9643721,3a,49.2y,318.33h,88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spBhiJOBhI4Xk5e9ohyLgJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 08, 2021, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2021, 01:43:58 PM

Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

I always thought this was a good thing.

My first thought was actually, "Who cares if drivers think they were skipped?"

Either (a) they find a gap and it doesn't matter, or else (b) the green arrow eventually comes and they find out they weren't skipped.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on June 08, 2021, 03:55:45 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on June 07, 2021, 03:40:50 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?

They already do it for right turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0347242,-79.9643721,3a,49.2y,318.33h,88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spBhiJOBhI4Xk5e9ohyLgJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
Never seen that here, at least not in my area. We don't have double right turn lanes except for going to Washington.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 08, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 08, 2021, 03:55:45 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on June 07, 2021, 03:40:50 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?

They already do it for right turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0347242,-79.9643721,3a,49.2y,318.33h,88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spBhiJOBhI4Xk5e9ohyLgJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Never seen that here, at least not in my area. We don't have double right turn lanes except for going to Washington.

I'm confused.  Have you not seen it in your area?  Or have you seen it "going to Washington"?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: johndoe on June 08, 2021, 07:11:31 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2021, 02:28:11 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 05, 2021, 01:43:58 PM

Quote from: johndoe on June 04, 2021, 09:00:30 PM
I recently heard a traffic engineer say he wasn't thrilled about lagging FYA lefts because a comment he hears: since most drivers around here are conditioned to expect leading lefts, drivers on the lagging turn assume they got "skipped" when the signal goes from red to FYA.  Would there be a way to communicate (preferably with the normal FYA signal heads) that "yes the controller knows you're here and you're going to get a protected Green arrow before the next red"?  I feel like this is solving a problem that doesn't really exist, but maybe it would help get more fans of FYA.

I always thought this was a good thing.
My first thought was actually, "Who cares if drivers think they were skipped?"

The traffic engineer who has to answer the phone call complaints, apparently!
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 PM
Speaking of FYA right turns, I don't really like them (while I like FYAs for left turns), and would prefer the traditional 5-section or doghouse for right turns. FYAs seem less useful for right turns to me compared to for left turns.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on June 08, 2021, 10:11:09 PM
New York City uses FYA on some right turns to protect bikes lanes and crosswalks. Unconventional but still effective applications.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 09, 2021, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 PM
Speaking of FYA right turns, I don't really like them (while I like FYAs for left turns), and would prefer the traditional 5-section or doghouse for right turns. FYAs seem less useful for right turns to me compared to for left turns.
That doesn't make sense. Maybe you just live in a rural area. We use FYA right turns for LPIs and to make sure people yield to pedestrians and bicycles.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on June 09, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 09, 2021, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 PM
Speaking of FYA right turns, I don't really like them (while I like FYAs for left turns), and would prefer the traditional 5-section or doghouse for right turns. FYAs seem less useful for right turns to me compared to for left turns.
That doesn't make sense. Maybe you just live in a rural area. We use FYA right turns for LPIs and to make sure people yield to pedestrians and bicycles.


iPhone
It's suburban actually, but rural is close enough for my area  :). Also Ohio doesn't really use FYAs in general, except a couple one-offs and a section of OH 747.

Though aren't right turns supposed to yield to pedestrians/oncoming traffic with a generic green ball anyways? Maybe a FYA RT could work as a reassurance, but it takes away from the two required straight arrows or green balls each signal layout needs that a doghouse or 5-section can provide. MoDOT is an agency I can think of that uses FYA lefts in combination with doghouse or 5-section rights.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 10, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 09, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 09, 2021, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 PM
Speaking of FYA right turns, I don't really like them (while I like FYAs for left turns), and would prefer the traditional 5-section or doghouse for right turns. FYAs seem less useful for right turns to me compared to for left turns.
That doesn't make sense. Maybe you just live in a rural area. We use FYA right turns for LPIs and to make sure people yield to pedestrians and bicycles.


iPhone
It's suburban actually, but rural is close enough for my area  :). Also Ohio doesn't really use FYAs in general, except a couple one-offs and a section of OH 747.

Though aren't right turns supposed to yield to pedestrians/oncoming traffic with a generic green ball anyways? Maybe a FYA RT could work as a reassurance, but it takes away from the two required straight arrows or green balls each signal layout needs that a doghouse or 5-section can provide. MoDOT is an agency I can think of that uses FYA lefts in combination with doghouse or 5-section rights.
Not really. And I mean the flashing yellow arrow really enforces the idea of yielding.

Plus it's nicer when doing a LPI to only have to delay turning traffic


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 10, 2021, 10:36:22 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 10, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 09, 2021, 08:50:06 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on June 09, 2021, 07:07:54 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on June 08, 2021, 09:59:25 PM
Speaking of FYA right turns, I don't really like them (while I like FYAs for left turns), and would prefer the traditional 5-section or doghouse for right turns. FYAs seem less useful for right turns to me compared to for left turns.
That doesn't make sense. Maybe you just live in a rural area. We use FYA right turns for LPIs and to make sure people yield to pedestrians and bicycles.


iPhone
It's suburban actually, but rural is close enough for my area  :). Also Ohio doesn't really use FYAs in general, except a couple one-offs and a section of OH 747.

Though aren't right turns supposed to yield to pedestrians/oncoming traffic with a generic green ball anyways? Maybe a FYA RT could work as a reassurance, but it takes away from the two required straight arrows or green balls each signal layout needs that a doghouse or 5-section can provide. MoDOT is an agency I can think of that uses FYA lefts in combination with doghouse or 5-section rights.
Not really. And I mean the flashing yellow arrow really enforces the idea of yielding.

Plus it's nicer when doing a LPI to only have to delay turning traffic


iPhone

Right.  just to expound on the above, the LPI, leading pedestrian interval, basically means that the signal will give the pedestrians (and/or bikes) a head start on their green before parallel traffic gets a green.

It works especially well in areas with heavy ped use, and heavy use of no turn on red at such corners.  (Think NYC). 

THe simple way of doing an LPI, is to simply allow the "walk' signal to come on while all the vehicle signals are red and then a few seconds later releasing the green signal.  This provides peds a head start on the crossing and presumably by the time that any car wants to turn right (when they get a green) the ped is more visible and already in the middle of the intersection.

The problem with the above is that all traffic is held during those few seconds, when it is likely only the turning trafffic that poses the danger to pedestrians.  it would be nice if thru traffic can go at the beginning of the signal and right turners are released a few seconds later.  A more deluxe LPI signal utilizing the FYA signal will allow for that.*  Walk and green orb can come on at the same time, while right turners face a red arrow.  A few seconds later, the right turners face a FYA.  They may turn right, but they must YIELD to the peds who may still be in the intersection.


*Technically, depending on the state, it is true that if there were a red arrow to prohibit right turns and then those right turns vanish (i.e. other than the red arrow, there is no yellow or green arrow), you are left with a green orb which will permit you to turn while yielding to peds.  This is how LPIs are done in Downtown Baltimore -- MD does not seem to allow the FYA signal in any context. 

Here is a one way left to one way left in Downtown Baltimore, the corner of Sharp and Pratt.  In almost every state, a one way left to one way left is similar to a right turn in that they can be made on red (unless prohibited by sign) and that the turn is made by staying close to the corner.  This is a good corner for LPI, since it is downtown, with lots of peds, and this is a double turn lane, indicating heavy turning traffic.

In the beginning, the signal is red.  Left turners see a red arrow and straight traffic sees a red orb.  [The double red orb is an anomaly, not relevant to the present discussion.  There should be two thru signals here per MUTCD, but I guess there is no room, so they put in one signal with two reds instead.  (This is common in Baltimore for RYG arrow signals, if there is only one signal head the signal is RRYG.)]  No turn on red sign prominently displayed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.286361,-76.6175269,3a,75y,171.3h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_sA1ZPRkBjq4UIbDIhaykQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Straight traffic is released with a straight green arrow, but left turners cannot turn because of the red arrow.  An LPI in action:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2866683,-76.617631,3a,15y,170.02h,87.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWdeI_sxa7eCxEwVlQVAgjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A few seconds later, left turns are permitted, but still must yield to peds.  This is why the left turning traffic will see a green ball instead of a green arrow.  [A green arrow would imply protected turn, but it is not a protected turn because pedestrians may be present.]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2864704,-76.6175509,3a,75y,181.07h,84.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suzRZnyeyGBmfmMHX_izDtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So while a FYA is better IMO, Baltimore shows us that a deluxe LPI is possible without using the FYA.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on June 10, 2021, 10:46:59 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 08, 2021, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on June 08, 2021, 03:55:45 PM

Quote from: MASTERNC on June 07, 2021, 03:40:50 PM

Quote from: tolbs17 on June 02, 2021, 11:06:13 PM
https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/safety/Teppl/TEPPL%20All%20Documents%20Library/T71_DLFYA.PDF

Will they really consider this?

They already do it for right turns

https://www.google.com/maps/@36.0347242,-79.9643721,3a,49.2y,318.33h,88t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1spBhiJOBhI4Xk5e9ohyLgJw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Never seen that here, at least not in my area. We don't have double right turn lanes except for going to Washington.

I'm confused.  Have you not seen it in your area?  Or have you seen it "going to Washington"?
No.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on June 11, 2021, 11:28:42 AM
Quote from: mrsman on June 10, 2021, 10:36:22 PM
Here is a one way left to one way left in Downtown Baltimore, the corner of Sharp and Pratt.  In almost every state, a one way left to one way left is similar to a right turn in that they can be made on red (unless prohibited by sign) and that the turn is made by staying close to the corner.  This is a good corner for LPI, since it is downtown, with lots of peds, and this is a double turn lane, indicating heavy turning traffic.

In the beginning, the signal is red.  Left turners see a red arrow and straight traffic sees a red orb.  [The double red orb is an anomaly, not relevant to the present discussion.  There should be two thru signals here per MUTCD, but I guess there is no room, so they put in one signal with two reds instead.  (This is common in Baltimore for RYG arrow signals, if there is only one signal head the signal is RRYG.)]  No turn on red sign prominently displayed.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.286361,-76.6175269,3a,75y,171.3h,93.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s_sA1ZPRkBjq4UIbDIhaykQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Straight traffic is released with a straight green arrow, but left turners cannot turn because of the red arrow.  An LPI in action:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2866683,-76.617631,3a,15y,170.02h,87.6t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sWdeI_sxa7eCxEwVlQVAgjQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

A few seconds later, left turns are permitted, but still must yield to peds.  This is why the left turning traffic will see a green ball instead of a green arrow.  [A green arrow would imply protected turn, but it is not a protected turn because pedestrians may be present.]

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.2864704,-76.6175509,3a,75y,181.07h,84.24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1suzRZnyeyGBmfmMHX_izDtA!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So while a FYA is better IMO, Baltimore shows us that a deluxe LPI is possible without using the FYA.

That seems like a good operation for LPI. It seems real awkward though to run that with a shared left/thru lane, and the signal head types doesn't seem to be MUTCD-kosher. But I can't think of a better way to do it without changing the lane layout.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 11, 2021, 12:27:37 PM
Given the shared-lane design, I would personally opt to have only one overhead signal and one on the right.

I would use a 5-section display, and operate it like this:

(1) red orb + green up arrow (LPI)
(2) flashing yellow left arrow + green up arrow
(3) green left arrow + green up arrow (if necessary)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: tolbs17 on October 23, 2021, 09:01:33 PM
replying to my comment, apparently they have one here in Wendell.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7834961,-78.4423108,3a,15y,293.7h,95.85t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s59nXg2XDDmkyDqrjLTafHQ!2e0!5s20160401T000000!7i13312!8i6656
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on October 23, 2021, 09:20:23 PM
Quote from: tolbs17 on October 23, 2021, 09:01:33 PM
replying to my comment, apparently they have one here in Wendell.

https://www.google.com/maps/@35.7834961,-78.4423108,3a,15y,293.7h,95.85t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s59nXg2XDDmkyDqrjLTafHQ!2e0!5s20160401T000000!7i13312!8i6656

I believe this signal was also covered in the 'Double Left Turns with Permissive Phasing (https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=17051.0)' thread as well.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on November 04, 2021, 10:24:55 PM
Comparing 2019 and 2021 GSV, looks like Virginia's gotten really gung-ho on replacing doghouses with FYAs in the past two years (I've only checked out Loudoun County so far). Reflective backplates seem to be flourishing as well. Can anyone in VA confirm this trend?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on November 05, 2021, 07:31:35 AM
Yes VDOT is pretty much committed to both the FYA's and the yellow strip backplates on their roads. A lot of replacing have been going on lately around the state.

Some cities have been doing so with newer signals as well, most notably Richmond and Suffolk.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: thenetwork on November 10, 2021, 08:05:41 PM
On my occasional work trip to Farmington, NM, I noticed they are starting to add FYAs to some intersections along NM-516 on the Northeast side of town.

Oddly (but then again, Anything in Farmington traffic-related is bizarre), all traffic lights at the new FYA intersections now are verdically displayed instead of the traditional NM horizontal setups on the overhead lights.

If there are other parts of New Mexico with FYAs, are all-vertical set-ups the standard practice???
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 19, 2022, 03:17:51 PM
Connecticut finally has a flashing yellow arrow. https://twitter.com/WorksGreenwich/status/1504550617431175169
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 19, 2022, 04:15:58 PM
I love the promotional material that typically accompanies flashing yellow arrow installations (or at least did for a while). They act like it's the first type of signal to ever allow discretionary left turns.

Now it may be true that many of these have replaced fully protected left turns, but if they were looking to alleviate congestion, there have been ways to allow permissive lefts for as long as traffic lights have existed, and ways that included a protected phase for at least 50 years.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Hobart on March 19, 2022, 10:06:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 19, 2022, 04:15:58 PM
I love the promotional material that typically accompanies flashing yellow arrow installations (or at least did for a while). They act like it's the first type of signal to ever allow discretionary left turns.

Now it may be true that many of these have replaced fully protected left turns, but if they were looking to alleviate congestion, there have been ways to allow permissive lefts for as long as traffic lights have existed, and ways that included a protected phase for at least 50 years.

The reason why the flashing yellow arrow became necessary was a problem with five-section permissive heads called "yellow trap" that happened in configurations with a lead-lag left turn phase. Effectively, the direction that got the leading phase would have its green ball turn yellow, which would prompt those making a permissive left to make a left turn (as is normal on a yellow). However, oncoming traffic still had a green signal; the left-turners direction received a red signal because to allow the oncoming direction's left turn to receive a yellow signal. This would cause people to pull into oncoming traffic to make a left turn, with the assumption the traffic was stopped, only to be hit by cars that were given a green signal.

Flashing yellow arrow signals make lead-lag left turns safer, which is great, because lead-lag left turns are (as far as I know) the most efficient configuration. I don't know why we don't see more lead-lag left turn configurations though.

You also have to consider that flashing yellow arrow signals can serve as protected only signals for certain times of day, and can allow permissive left turns when the thru direction has a stop signal. These aren't possible on the traditional inline-five or doghouse, unless a very specific signal setup is laid out.

Pretty much, they're marketing the FYA so hard because people need to know how it works to take advantage of it. I personally like the inline five and doghouse signals, but the FYA just... does things they can't.

TLDR: The FYA signal isn't the first discretionary left turn device... it is an improvement on what we had that requires a little bit of education to understand.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: STLmapboy on March 20, 2022, 09:16:58 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 19, 2022, 03:17:51 PM
Connecticut finally has a flashing yellow arrow.

Took them long enough.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on March 21, 2022, 09:08:04 AM
PennDOT is still mainly using doghouses for left turns, at least in the Philly area.  This is true even for new installations.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: zachary_amaryllis on March 21, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
I guess I don't understand how these fya's improve things. my understanding:

green ball with no arrow = go when safe
green arrow=you are protected, opposing is stopped
yellow arrow = protected phase ending
fya = go when safe

the only difference i see, is that if the opposite side has green+green arrow, my side will be red with fya, but it's rarely safe to turn during this phase.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: ran4sh on March 21, 2022, 04:16:11 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on March 21, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
I guess I don't understand how these fya's improve things. my understanding:

green ball with no arrow = go when safe
green arrow=you are protected, opposing is stopped
yellow arrow = protected phase ending
fya = go when safe

the only difference i see, is that if the opposite side has green+green arrow, my side will be red with fya, but it's rarely safe to turn during this phase.

In some areas they use lead-lag turn phases, for example, northbound left turns get a leading green arrow while southbound left turns get a lagging green arrow. The direction that gets the leading green arrow often also has the opportunity to turn left during the FYA associated with the oncoming green arrow phase, due to most of the straight through traffic having gone through by then.
Title: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 21, 2022, 08:37:07 PM
Quote from: zachary_amaryllis on March 21, 2022, 03:43:16 PM
I guess I don't understand how these fya's improve things. my understanding:

green ball with no arrow = go when safe
green arrow=you are protected, opposing is stopped
yellow arrow = protected phase ending
fya = go when safe

the only difference i see, is that if the opposite side has green+green arrow, my side will be red with fya, but it's rarely safe to turn during this phase.
They're great for engineers too.

Able to use time of day phasing so the signal can only give green arrow lefts at certain times of the day. Able to prevent yellow traps. And they give us benefits for protected right turns by delaying them so pedestrians get a head start


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr Kite on March 22, 2022, 04:52:24 AM
My main concern with this is the potential to condition motorists into only yielding if they see the flashing amber arrow. I know some places are using them where the left turn is permissive only and they need to be careful with that.

Also, if the aspect fails, there's the risk of false positive indications. If someone arrives at the intersection and sees only a yellow ball and then a red, with a signal head on the far left corner completely dark, there's your amber trap. Obviously, LED aspects are less likely to fail but it's not completely eliminated.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Ted$8roadFan on March 22, 2022, 06:06:01 AM
They've made it to my state and my town. A major road rebuild has added them to intersections that really needed them. There are even a couple of flashing yellow right turn signals, shared with new bike lanes.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on March 22, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Mr Kite on March 22, 2022, 04:52:24 AM
My main concern with this is the potential to condition motorists into only yielding if they see the flashing amber arrow. I know some places are using them where the left turn is permissive only and they need to be careful with that.

Also, if the aspect fails, there's the risk of false positive indications. If someone arrives at the intersection and sees only a yellow ball and then a red, with a signal head on the far left corner completely dark, there's your amber trap. Obviously, LED aspects are less likely to fail but it's not completely eliminated.

When I'm waiting in an intersection to turn left and the light goes to amber, I've always made a point of making sure opposing traffic was stopping before making the turn. That's just smart defensive driving.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 22, 2022, 08:29:41 PM
Quote from: Ted$8roadFan on March 22, 2022, 06:06:01 AM
They've made it to my state and my town. A major road rebuild has added them to intersections that really needed them. There are even a couple of flashing yellow right turn signals, shared with new bike lanes.
Oh wow where is this ! That sounds interesting


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 22, 2022, 09:34:59 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Mr Kite on March 22, 2022, 04:52:24 AM
My main concern with this is the potential to condition motorists into only yielding if they see the flashing amber arrow. I know some places are using them where the left turn is permissive only and they need to be careful with that.

Also, if the aspect fails, there's the risk of false positive indications. If someone arrives at the intersection and sees only a yellow ball and then a red, with a signal head on the far left corner completely dark, there's your amber trap. Obviously, LED aspects are less likely to fail but it's not completely eliminated.

When I'm waiting in an intersection to turn left and the light goes to amber, I've always made a point of making sure opposing traffic was stopping before making the turn. That's just smart defensive driving.

I also make a point of this, even if the light is already red. There's usually a gap between the red light for one direction and the green light for the other, so there's no reason to immediately evacuate the intersection the moment the light turns amber.

Additionally, the problem with malfunctioning traffic signals (when it's not an intersection issue, but instead relegated to an individual head) is usually combated by using more than one signal for each movement. Not every state requires this for anything but the through movement, but it's a good practice to have more than one just in case. Overhead and on the far corner, ideally.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on March 22, 2022, 09:41:23 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 21, 2022, 08:37:07 PM
Able to use time of day phasing so the signal can only give green arrow lefts at certain times of the day.
And able to make them protected only in peak times. One reason why I like them over the doghouse or 5 section: more flexibility on the signal operation.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr Kite on March 23, 2022, 07:17:48 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on March 22, 2022, 08:00:00 PM
Quote from: Mr Kite on March 22, 2022, 04:52:24 AM
My main concern with this is the potential to condition motorists into only yielding if they see the flashing amber arrow. I know some places are using them where the left turn is permissive only and they need to be careful with that.

Also, if the aspect fails, there's the risk of false positive indications. If someone arrives at the intersection and sees only a yellow ball and then a red, with a signal head on the far left corner completely dark, there's your amber trap. Obviously, LED aspects are less likely to fail but it's not completely eliminated.

When I'm waiting in an intersection to turn left and the light goes to amber, I've always made a point of making sure opposing traffic was stopping before making the turn. That's just smart defensive driving.

And a minority pursuit, unfortunately. If everyone did that, we wouldn't need to worry about amber trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 24, 2022, 02:20:36 PM
Quote from: SkyPesos on March 22, 2022, 09:41:23 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 21, 2022, 08:37:07 PM
Able to use time of day phasing so the signal can only give green arrow lefts at certain times of the day.
And able to make them protected only in peak times. One reason why I like them over the doghouse or 5 section: more flexibility on the signal operation.
Exactly what I meant, yup !


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 08:57:20 PM
Quote from: Hobart on March 19, 2022, 10:06:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 19, 2022, 04:15:58 PM
I love the promotional material that typically accompanies flashing yellow arrow installations (or at least did for a while). They act like it's the first type of signal to ever allow discretionary left turns.

Now it may be true that many of these have replaced fully protected left turns, but if they were looking to alleviate congestion, there have been ways to allow permissive lefts for as long as traffic lights have existed, and ways that included a protected phase for at least 50 years.

The reason why the flashing yellow arrow became necessary was a problem with five-section permissive heads called "yellow trap" that happened in configurations with a lead-lag left turn phase. Effectively, the direction that got the leading phase would have its green ball turn yellow, which would prompt those making a permissive left to make a left turn (as is normal on a yellow). However, oncoming traffic still had a green signal; the left-turners direction received a red signal because to allow the oncoming direction's left turn to receive a yellow signal. This would cause people to pull into oncoming traffic to make a left turn, with the assumption the traffic was stopped, only to be hit by cars that were given a green signal.

Flashing yellow arrow signals make lead-lag left turns safer, which is great, because lead-lag left turns are (as far as I know) the most efficient configuration. I don't know why we don't see more lead-lag left turn configurations though.

You also have to consider that flashing yellow arrow signals can serve as protected only signals for certain times of day, and can allow permissive left turns when the thru direction has a stop signal. These aren't possible on the traditional inline-five or doghouse, unless a very specific signal setup is laid out.

Pretty much, they're marketing the FYA so hard because people need to know how it works to take advantage of it. I personally like the inline five and doghouse signals, but the FYA just... does things they can't.

TLDR: The FYA signal isn't the first discretionary left turn device... it is an improvement on what we had that requires a little bit of education to understand.

I think I may not have fully explained my thoughts.

I understand why the FYA was created, it's certainly much more flexible in its deployment and operation than the traditional green ball setup (either fully permissive or protected-permissive using a four or five section signal with green and yellow arrows). But it's not a requirement for permissive left turns to "exist", per se.

For example, look at the tweet. The only point they make is that the flashing yellow arrow "alleviates traffic + queue time by allowing vehicles to turn when there is no traffic in the opposing direction". While that's true, if that was their only goal, they could have simply removed the old protected-only left turn signal heads that did not permit discretionary left turns, allowing for traffic turning left to simply proceed when safe at the same time as through traffic. If necessary, the left turn signals could have been replaced with four or five section left turn signals (aka, a "doghouse" or "tower") that would have also allowed for a protected phase in addition to the permissive phase.

I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm just trying to say that FYAs don't really bring anything new to the table unless you are looking for more complex setups (time of day phasing, free lefts during an oncoming green arrow, LPIs, etc). If the expressed purpose was simply to allow traffic to turn through gaps, well, they could have fixed that issue a long time ago.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 24, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
The main point of the FYA is to have the flexible PPLT phasing with a dedicated left turn signal, without using the circular green indication over the left lane. That circular green tied to the adjacent green could cause the yellow trap issue (unless Dallas Phasing was used). FYA ends up being much more flexible and better understood.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 24, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
The main point of the FYA is to have the flexible PPLT phasing with a dedicated left turn signal, without using the circular green indication over the left lane. That circular green tied to the adjacent green could cause the yellow trap issue (unless Dallas Phasing was used). FYA ends up being much more flexible and better understood.

But the flashing yellow arrow is not required for permissive left turns. That is, and remains, my only point.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on March 24, 2022, 10:55:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
The main point of the FYA is to have the flexible PPLT phasing with a dedicated left turn signal, without using the circular green indication over the left lane. That circular green tied to the adjacent green could cause the yellow trap issue (unless Dallas Phasing was used). FYA ends up being much more flexible and better understood.

...which is simply done by putting an overlap on the oncoming thru green, which can be a bit challenging if the controller you are programming has a very limited number of overlaps remaining and if there is limited space for more load switches for FYA... a signal tech told me it can be a bit challenging to get FYA's working with a TS1 controller/cabinet* compared to TS2 or ATC controllers (not sure how it is with 170-based controllers mostly used in the western US)

*Mention that because New Hampshire, even in some of their more recent installations or retrofits, still use TS1 equipment to this day

Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
But the flashing yellow arrow is not required for permissive left turns. That is, and remains, my only point.

The new MUTCD continues to allow "yield on green" installations for approaches with a dedicated left turn lane using Permissive only or Permissive-Protected phasing, which I don't understand why this was kept in the new one and not deprecated by now... in my opinion, any kind of permissive left turn with a dedicated left turn lane should always have an overlap tied to the opposing greens using FYAs and not with the adjecent greens, since the left turns are not on the same rings under the old system which can cause yellow trap.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on March 24, 2022, 11:13:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
Quote from: roadfro on March 24, 2022, 10:24:28 PM
The main point of the FYA is to have the flexible PPLT phasing with a dedicated left turn signal, without using the circular green indication over the left lane. That circular green tied to the adjacent green could cause the yellow trap issue (unless Dallas Phasing was used). FYA ends up being much more flexible and better understood.

But the flashing yellow arrow is not required for permissive left turns. That is, and remains, my only point.
That's fair. If you're just having a permissive left with no need for protected left or anything else fancy, FYA doesn't bring anything extra to the table (aside from an all-arrow display).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 25, 2022, 03:10:44 AM
Quote authors mixed up...fixed here but you may want to fix your post...

Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 24, 2022, 10:55:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
But the flashing yellow arrow is not required for permissive left turns. That is, and remains, my only point.

The new MUTCD continues to allow "yield on green" installations for approaches with a dedicated left turn lane using Permissive only or Permissive-Protected phasing, which I don't understand why this was kept in the new one and not deprecated by now... in my opinion, any kind of permissive left turn with a dedicated left turn lane should always have an overlap tied to the opposing greens using FYAs and not with the adjecent greens, since the left turns are not on the same rings under the old system which can cause yellow trap.

If you are implying that every intersection with a dedicated left turn lane should have, at the very least, a permissive-only FYA, I feel like that may be a bit overkill. There are plenty of intersections where there is no need for any protected phasing. In those cases, yes, a permissive-only FYA wouldn't hurt. But I also don't think it's strictly necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2022, 08:29:40 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 24, 2022, 10:55:59 PM...since the left turns are not on the same rings under the old system which can cause yellow trap.

Yellow traps are caused when the opposing direction has an extended green, which occurs quite rarely.

Even intersections with FLAs often have cross traffic with traditional RYG lights.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on March 26, 2022, 08:04:53 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 08:57:20 PM
Quote from: Hobart on March 19, 2022, 10:06:56 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 19, 2022, 04:15:58 PM
I love the promotional material that typically accompanies flashing yellow arrow installations (or at least did for a while). They act like it's the first type of signal to ever allow discretionary left turns.

Now it may be true that many of these have replaced fully protected left turns, but if they were looking to alleviate congestion, there have been ways to allow permissive lefts for as long as traffic lights have existed, and ways that included a protected phase for at least 50 years.

The reason why the flashing yellow arrow became necessary was a problem with five-section permissive heads called "yellow trap" that happened in configurations with a lead-lag left turn phase. Effectively, the direction that got the leading phase would have its green ball turn yellow, which would prompt those making a permissive left to make a left turn (as is normal on a yellow). However, oncoming traffic still had a green signal; the left-turners direction received a red signal because to allow the oncoming direction's left turn to receive a yellow signal. This would cause people to pull into oncoming traffic to make a left turn, with the assumption the traffic was stopped, only to be hit by cars that were given a green signal.

Flashing yellow arrow signals make lead-lag left turns safer, which is great, because lead-lag left turns are (as far as I know) the most efficient configuration. I don't know why we don't see more lead-lag left turn configurations though.

You also have to consider that flashing yellow arrow signals can serve as protected only signals for certain times of day, and can allow permissive left turns when the thru direction has a stop signal. These aren't possible on the traditional inline-five or doghouse, unless a very specific signal setup is laid out.

Pretty much, they're marketing the FYA so hard because people need to know how it works to take advantage of it. I personally like the inline five and doghouse signals, but the FYA just... does things they can't.

TLDR: The FYA signal isn't the first discretionary left turn device... it is an improvement on what we had that requires a little bit of education to understand.

I think I may not have fully explained my thoughts.

I understand why the FYA was created, it's certainly much more flexible in its deployment and operation than the traditional green ball setup (either fully permissive or protected-permissive using a four or five section signal with green and yellow arrows). But it's not a requirement for permissive left turns to "exist", per se.

For example, look at the tweet. The only point they make is that the flashing yellow arrow "alleviates traffic + queue time by allowing vehicles to turn when there is no traffic in the opposing direction". While that's true, if that was their only goal, they could have simply removed the old protected-only left turn signal heads that did not permit discretionary left turns, allowing for traffic turning left to simply proceed when safe at the same time as through traffic. If necessary, the left turn signals could have been replaced with four or five section left turn signals (aka, a "doghouse" or "tower") that would have also allowed for a protected phase in addition to the permissive phase.

I'm not trying to be pedantic here, I'm just trying to say that FYAs don't really bring anything new to the table unless you are looking for more complex setups (time of day phasing, free lefts during an oncoming green arrow, LPIs, etc). If the expressed purpose was simply to allow traffic to turn through gaps, well, they could have fixed that issue a long time ago.
Exactly. Something like this signal: https://youtu.be/vtoSU-NBywM


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on March 26, 2022, 01:21:59 PM
Quote from: Amtrakprod on March 26, 2022, 08:04:53 AM
Exactly. Something like this signal: https://youtu.be/vtoSU-NBywM

That's definitely the longest LPI I have ever seen.

Side-note: love the walk timers being on for the entire walk phase. I've only seen this in DC, where it's everywhere and I think it's so cool. Too bad it's "not allowed".
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Mr. Matté on April 04, 2022, 09:39:51 PM
Quote from: Mr. Matté on June 13, 2020, 05:05:00 PM
Well, I think I spotted a flashing yellow arrow in New Jersey today!

It's for a right turn when a yield sign could probably be more than sufficient: CR 529 / Ethel Road in Piscataway, GSV from before its activation: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.5333027,-74.4194722,3a,47.5y,200.7h,87.04t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sgqw481rS8VoiDYIoC5TCiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

So I was incorrect, in my drives this weekend I found another flashing yellow in the Garden State that dates back to around 2013 in North Bergen, though it operates the same way as the Piscataway intersection as above (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.775845,-74.0322774,3a,15y,171.56h,93.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s3Au1RKYJuko08AKRqCTjFw!2e0!5s20121001T000000!7i13312!8i6656). This one has no green arrow. Sorry it's only a GSV link, when I went by it was raining and missed the portion of it actually flashing.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on April 11, 2022, 03:26:54 PM
Fixed the quoting in the original post...

Quote from: jakeroot on March 25, 2022, 03:10:44 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 24, 2022, 10:55:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on March 24, 2022, 10:38:45 PM
But the flashing yellow arrow is not required for permissive left turns. That is, and remains, my only point.

The new MUTCD continues to allow "yield on green" installations for approaches with a dedicated left turn lane using Permissive only or Permissive-Protected phasing, which I don't understand why this was kept in the new one and not deprecated by now... in my opinion, any kind of permissive left turn with a dedicated left turn lane should always have an overlap tied to the opposing greens using FYAs and not with the adjecent greens, since the left turns are not on the same rings under the old system which can cause yellow trap.

If you are implying that every intersection with a dedicated left turn lane should have, at the very least, a permissive-only FYA, I feel like that may be a bit overkill. There are plenty of intersections where there is no need for any protected phasing. In those cases, yes, a permissive-only FYA wouldn't hurt. But I also don't think it's strictly necessary.

I only mention that, as MaineDOT is requring new installs to have FYA's if there is a dedicated single left turn lane only crossing one opposing thru lane with either permissive-only or permissive-protected phasing. However, even with this requirement, I have seen some new permissive only lefts with dedicated left turn lanes with just the green ball and/or permissive-protected lefts with 5-section shared signals - but it is possible those projects may have been approved before the requirement, or it was just signal heads they were replacing and not the controller (which may or may not be able to support FYA overlaps).




Quote from: jeffandnicole on March 25, 2022, 08:29:40 AM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on March 24, 2022, 10:55:59 PM...since the left turns are not on the same rings under the old system which can cause yellow trap.

Yellow traps are caused when the opposing direction has an extended green, which occurs quite rarely.

Even intersections with FLAs often have cross traffic with traditional RYG lights.

Yellow traps are common in Maine (with shared yield on green PPLT signals), but mostly becuase of phase skip being allowed at these intersections. Even intersections with single direction protected only left turns (phase skip lead or single lag) also have this issue occasionally (example (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.1780096,-70.810397,3a,51.7y,203.83h,87.53t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sw4wheBGCqOXdUkTZbHlwng!2e0!7i13312!8i6656)).

I know in New Hampshire, even when FYA's are installed on the main road, they sometimes keep the traditional RYG lights for cross traffic for the permissive lefts. As most NHDOT controllers cabinets are still on TS1 (edit, most controllers are of the newer TS2 or ATC spec), it's possible there aren't any more loadswitch spaces available, no more overlaps available, or in some cases, the mast arm can't support an additional signal.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: cl94 on May 21, 2022, 07:01:22 PM
So, I was poking around San Diego County on GSV and I found an FYA on a local street in El Cajon (https://goo.gl/maps/GVFDLaeCzpyHbcR96). California and New Hampshire are the land of "protected lefts only, no exceptions", so this was a bit of a surprise to see. There can't be many protected/permissive signals in California.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on May 21, 2022, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 21, 2022, 07:01:22 PM
So, I was poking around San Diego County on GSV and I found an FYA on a local street in El Cajon (https://goo.gl/maps/GVFDLaeCzpyHbcR96). California and New Hampshire are the land of "protected lefts only, no exceptions", so this was a bit of a surprise to see. There can't be many protected/permissive signals in California.

That whole stretch of roadway is full of them. Certainly one of only a handful of such stretches in California. If I'm honest, the only worrying thing is that they were all installed ten-ish years ago, and there doesn't seem to be much progress in terms of converting other lefts in the area to FYA operations in the period since.

I'd reckon that about 75 to 85 per cent of protected/permissive signals in California are in Los Angeles County.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on May 26, 2022, 11:16:54 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on May 21, 2022, 07:25:58 PM
Quote from: cl94 on May 21, 2022, 07:01:22 PM
So, I was poking around San Diego County on GSV and I found an FYA on a local street in El Cajon (https://goo.gl/maps/GVFDLaeCzpyHbcR96). California and New Hampshire are the land of "protected lefts only, no exceptions", so this was a bit of a surprise to see. There can't be many protected/permissive signals in California.

That whole stretch of roadway is full of them. Certainly one of only a handful of such stretches in California. If I'm honest, the only worrying thing is that they were all installed ten-ish years ago, and there doesn't seem to be much progress in terms of converting other lefts in the area to FYA operations in the period since.

I'd reckon that about 75 to 85 per cent of protected/permissive signals in California are in Los Angeles County.

Anecdotally, I think you are right.  CA is very much known as requiring protected lefts all over the place, even in fairly rural areas.  I don't believe there are any set rules on this similar to what Maine has, but the vast number of protected lefts must at least correspond to a policy if not a formal rule.

Firstly, it has to be kept in mind that Caltrans districts are really their own feifdoms.  Very different policies in each of the several districts.  So it seems that many of the non-urban districts follow the policy of protected lefts for new installations and protected lefts where there is a dedicated left turn lane that is turning against more than one lane of traffic.  Policy over Caltrans roads (i.e. numbered highways) but generally followed in unincorporated counties and even many smaller cities that have independent DOTs.

In the more urban areas like SF, Sac, LA, Orange County, San Diego, you definitely see Caltrans policy being followed carefully in most of the suburban areas, but rarely in the cities.  And each individual city can do what they want.

So let's take El Cajon as it is the example linked above.  From the 1980's until recently most signals seemed to follow the Caltrans policy, protected only lefts across multiple lanes and no protection at all across single lanes.  But more recently, they converted those protected only lefts to PPLTs with the 4 aspect FYA signal.  (This should be straightforward, just add a flashing yellow arrow between yellow arrow and green arrow.)  And it would seem that many other places could do the same thing, since the FYA or other PPLT doesn't violate any rule, even if it does violate the policy in spirit.  But signals that are controlled by Caltrans directly (and probably many existing signals in unincorporated areas) will not be adjusted and will continue to follow the policy.

The only indication of formal policy that I found is at the following link:

https://dot.ca.gov/-/media/dot-media/programs/traffic-operations/documents/mobility/traffic-signal-operatons-manual-1-31-2020-a11y.pdf

Quote

Certain situations exist where safety considerations generally precluded the use of permissive left
turns. In these cases, left turns should be restricted to the exclusive left turn phases. Such situations
include:
• Intersection approaches where crash experience or traffic conflicts criteria are used as the basis for
installing separate left turn phasing.
• Blind intersections where the horizontal or vertical alignment of the road does not allow the left
turning driver adequate sight distance to judge whether or not a gap in on-coming traffic is long
enough to more safely complete his turn.
• High-speed and/or multilane approaches may make it difficult for left turning drivers to judge gaps
in oncoming traffic. Such locations should be evaluated on an individual basis.
• Unusual geometric or traffic conditions may complicate the driver’s task and necessitate the
prohibition of permissive left turns. An example of such conditions is an approach where dual left
turns are provided.
• When normal lead-lag phasing is used (due to left turn trapping).

Some of the issues noted above that preclude the use of permissive left turns may only be applicable
during certain times of the day. Traditionally, this would require protected only operation for the
entire day.
(Emphasis added)  The use of the FYA display (see section G-3) would allow the indication to operate as
protected only during some times of the day and permissive or protected/permissive during others.
The use of the FYA display can also eliminate the left turn trapping problem that is discussed in the
next section.


The sections that discuss protected left turns seem very standard.  But I think the approach in Caltrans reads the bulleted standards very strictly.  So they basically find nearly every multilane situation as causing difficulty to find a left turn gaps, so they use protected only lefts.  At least the FYA signals will allow some leeway where it is clear that there are certain times of day when the protection is clearly not needed, even if it is presumed to be needed at the busiest times.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.

I don't see the problem with it to begin with.  Seems like a perfect application to me.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Caps81943 on June 23, 2022, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.

I don't see the problem with it to begin with.  Seems like a perfect application to me.

My big issue is that there (seems to be, barring bimodal) no protected phase, making a light here completely unnecessary because there is never any reason to turn opposing traffic red (to allow left turning traffic a protected green), which is the only movement in these continuous green setups.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 23, 2022, 12:10:59 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on June 23, 2022, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.

I don't see the problem with it to begin with.  Seems like a perfect application to me.

My big issue is that there (seems to be, barring bimodal) no protected phase, making a light here completely unnecessary because there is never any reason to turn opposing traffic red (to allow left turning traffic a protected green), which is the only movement in these continuous green setups.

If it does only operate in permissive mode (no bimodal lens), then yes, they could have probably remove the whole signal. Still, my guess is that they retrofitted the existing left turn signal with a bimodal green/yellow lens to reduce or eliminate the need to stop oncoming traffic for just one or two cars. But they've maintained the ability to use the green arrow in case of heavy left turning traffic.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 12:16:32 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on June 23, 2022, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.

I don't see the problem with it to begin with.  Seems like a perfect application to me.

My big issue is that there (seems to be, barring bimodal) no protected phase, making a light here completely unnecessary because there is never any reason to turn opposing traffic red (to allow left turning traffic a protected green), which is the only movement in these continuous green setups.

So the left turn was converted to permissive only when the existing standard RYG was replaced with an FYA?  This would mean the other two aspects of the FYA are never used.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Caps81943 on June 23, 2022, 01:10:19 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 12:16:32 PM
Quote from: Caps81943 on June 23, 2022, 12:00:56 PM
Quote from: kphoger on June 23, 2022, 09:31:31 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 22, 2022, 09:00:30 PM

Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?

It may be bimodal, with a shared green and yellow bottom lens.

Alternatively, it may have been necessary to use the flashing yellow arrow because it was the best way to make it permissive. I think solid green orbs directly over left turn lanes are no longer allowed.

I don't see the problem with it to begin with.  Seems like a perfect application to me.

My big issue is that there (seems to be, barring bimodal) no protected phase, making a light here completely unnecessary because there is never any reason to turn opposing traffic red (to allow left turning traffic a protected green), which is the only movement in these continuous green setups.

So the left turn was converted to permissive only when the existing standard RYG was replaced with an FYA?  This would mean the other two aspects of the FYA are never used.

Correct. Which, to me, just removing the light completely has the exact same effect.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on June 24, 2022, 01:14:51 AM
Have you confirmed it's not bimodal? They are quite common, particularly retrofits (as could be the case here).
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 24, 2022, 12:43:36 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 24, 2022, 01:14:51 AM
Have you confirmed it's not bimodal? They are quite common, particularly retrofits (as could be the case here).

I also presume it's bimodal.  Older GSVs do give an indication of a retrofit, since it appears that the left turn used to be protected only (and the single phase signals on the right used to be green orbs instead of green straight arrows).

Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: plain on June 24, 2022, 01:21:06 PM
If it is bi-modal, it would be the first VDOT-installed bi-modal signal I've ever seen in my life.

Newport News had them at a couple locations (long gone) and Charlottesville still have them all over the city.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Amtrakprod on June 25, 2022, 08:11:35 AM
Quote from: Caps81943 on June 22, 2022, 08:48:02 PM
https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7778252,-79.9750562,3a,62.7y,261.84h,90.39t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sKz0f-wHZq0llNEW27iHjEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

I don't think this is how you should use a 3-section FYA...what even is the point of the light then?
You can use them to delay turns to protect pedestrians, improve yielding conditions, and prevent the yellow trap.


iPhone
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on June 29, 2022, 02:04:51 PM
Quote from: plain on June 24, 2022, 01:21:06 PM
If it is bi-modal, it would be the first VDOT-installed bi-modal signal I've ever seen in my life.

Newport News had them at a couple locations (long gone) and Charlottesville still have them all over the city.

Clicking on the link shows a yellow arrow illuminated in the bottom aspect.  So that leads us to believe that the top aspect is red arrow and the middle aspect is solid yellow arrow.  It also excludes the possibility that the middle aspect will flash to provide the flashing yellow arrow, since from the picture it is clear that the bottom aspect is a yellow arrow, and implicit that the bottom aspect is flashing.

So while there are certain places with a RA-YA-FYA setup that does not provide for a protected green arrow, that can't be the case here.  And that is because there is a traffic signal in the opposing direction and no traffic signal in the perpendicular direction.  The traffic signal in the opposing direction is R-Y-G, so presumably at some point in the cycle (or when enough cars are waiting in queue at the left turn lane), that signal will turn red.  And when that signal is red, it provides the opportunity for a protected green arrow.

So while I have never been to this intersection, and I understand that bimodal signals are rare for VDOT, I have to conclude that the signal provides for both a green arrow and a flashing yellow arrow in the bottom aspect, logically, based on the above.

[And I also agree that it would be a good idea to replace this with a 4-aspect signal face with FYA for purposes of clarity, but likely wasn't done for budgetary reasons.  I think people should be happy that this protected only left turn was converted to allow permissive left turns by incorporating a FYA.]
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: MASTERNC on July 11, 2022, 04:41:34 PM
Looks like the bimodal 3 lens FYA might exist in Western New York, judging by this video.  The county already uses bimodal four lens signals for left turns on county roads.

https://www.wgrz.com/article/traffic/more-flashing-yellow-arrows-are-coming-to-wny-nysdot-travel-traffic/71-813690f2-455a-4cf2-adbc-ddba37a246b7
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: CardInLex on July 11, 2022, 06:50:47 PM
Quote from: MASTERNC on July 11, 2022, 04:41:34 PM
Looks like the bimodal 3 lens FYA might exist in Western New York, judging by this video.  The county already uses bimodal four lens signals for left turns on county roads.

https://www.wgrz.com/article/traffic/more-flashing-yellow-arrows-are-coming-to-wny-nysdot-travel-traffic/71-813690f2-455a-4cf2-adbc-ddba37a246b7

I haven't seen a three section FYA/GA bimodal before. The ones I have seen (in Lexington, KY) are FYA/SYA bimodal, set up like this:

RA
SYA/FYA
GA
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on July 12, 2022, 11:53:47 AM
Quote from: CardInLex on July 11, 2022, 06:50:47 PM
I haven't seen a three section FYA/GA bimodal before. The ones I have seen (in Lexington, KY) are FYA/SYA bimodal, set up like this:

RA
SYA/FYA
GA

I wouldn't consider FYA/SYA "bimodal" in the sense typically used here. A true bimodal would be a single signal aspect that can display different colors, like green and yellow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 12, 2022, 12:14:17 PM
Quote from: roadfro on July 12, 2022, 11:53:47 AM
Quote from: CardInLex on July 11, 2022, 06:50:47 PM
I haven't seen a three section FYA/GA bimodal before. The ones I have seen (in Lexington, KY) are FYA/SYA bimodal, set up like this:

RA
SYA/FYA
GA

I wouldn't consider FYA/SYA "bimodal" in the sense typically used here. A true bimodal would be a single signal aspect that can display different colors, like green and yellow.

Perhaps "bi-operational"  would be a better term.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:16:50 AM
Another OhioDOT 3-section FYA
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:15:28 AM
New FYA at the I-275 onramp on US 22/OH 3. Interesting that it's a 3-section model with a center bimodal static and flashing yellow, instead of the more common 4-section. Looks like this is the ODOT standard for FYAs, as 3-section FYAs were also installed on OH 747 a couple of years ago.
(https://i.imgur.com/d8LibYs.gif)
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Dough4872 on June 01, 2023, 10:02:14 PM
Yeah we have some of them in Pennsylvania, one I can think of is at PA 463 (Horsham Road) and Dresher Road in Horsham.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Caps81943 on July 30, 2023, 08:26:28 PM
Quote from: plain on June 24, 2022, 01:21:06 PM
If it is bi-modal, it would be the first VDOT-installed bi-modal signal I've ever seen in my life.

Newport News had them at a couple locations (long gone) and Charlottesville still have them all over the city.

I know I am the one that started this conversation over a year ago, but I can now confirm that VDOT does indeed, seemingly very rarely, install bimodal RA-YA-FYA/GA signals. I was randomly up in the tiny town of Berryville recently and noticed that the signal at US-340 and VA-7 BUS, which has 3-section FYA's, operates those signals bi-modally. I was genuinely shocked, because again, bi-modal is very rare not just in VA (minus Charlottesville), but in this whole general region. Went to confirm that it's a VDOT install on their site and it is. So I am now in the camp that the original light that I linked is also bimodal.

In fact, you can see it in streetview: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1508782,-77.9833285,3a,54.9y,34.08h,89.58t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siFag3y6U4zKSfFTJye3yqw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu followed by https://www.google.com/maps/@39.1509588,-77.9832576,3a,21.9y,32.84h,88.33t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sv1kojgZOKLByh15jeybTEQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2023, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:16:50 AM
Another OhioDOT 3-section FYA
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:15:28 AM
New FYA at the I-275 onramp on US 22/OH 3. Interesting that it's a 3-section model with a center bimodal static and flashing yellow, instead of the more common 4-section. Looks like this is the ODOT standard for FYAs, as 3-section FYAs were also installed on OH 747 a couple of years ago.
(https://i.imgur.com/d8LibYs.gif)

Is that bimodal, or just a yellow arrow that serves a dual function?

The 3 head assembly was probably chosen over a 4 head due to the clearance needed as a result of the wire span droop in the center of the roadway.

The 4 head has the advantage of alerting motorists that the light either is a FYA, or in states where the bottom section is the green (or bimodal) arrow, a protected/permissive traffic light.  The 3 head assembly will leave motorists unfamiliar with the intersection guessing if it's a protected-only light or a FYA until they see what happens.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on July 31, 2023, 06:16:47 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2023, 09:19:16 AM
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:16:50 AM
Another OhioDOT 3-section FYA
Quote from: SkyPesos on May 28, 2023, 01:15:28 AM
New FYA at the I-275 onramp on US 22/OH 3. Interesting that it's a 3-section model with a center bimodal static and flashing yellow, instead of the more common 4-section. Looks like this is the ODOT standard for FYAs, as 3-section FYAs were also installed on OH 747 a couple of years ago.
(https://i.imgur.com/d8LibYs.gif)

Is that bimodal, or just a yellow arrow that serves a dual function?

The 3 head assembly was probably chosen over a 4 head due to the clearance needed as a result of the wire span droop in the center of the roadway.

The 4 head has the advantage of alerting motorists that the light either is a FYA, or in states where the bottom section is the green (or bimodal) arrow, a protected/permissive traffic light.  The 3 head assembly will leave motorists unfamiliar with the intersection guessing if it's a protected-only light or a FYA until they see what happens.

Bimodal in his post is clearly referring to a dual-function yellow arrow, I understood what he meant at least. From the gif, it's quite clear that the center arrow is both FYA and SYA.

Not sure if the height was an issue, it doesn't seem like any vehicles should pass beneath it with the median. Though I suppose there are minimums regardless...could also be a weight thing.

While I understand what you're getting at with your last point (4 section FYA being a bit 'clearer'), I've never seen data to show this to actually be true. In fact, I would be willing to bet that if you asked a hundred drivers the difference between 3 and 4 section FYA signals, 99 wouldn't have a clue. And the one leftover is one of us.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SkyPesos on July 31, 2023, 10:22:27 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on July 31, 2023, 09:19:16 AM
Is that bimodal, or just a yellow arrow that serves a dual function?
Dual solid and flashing yellow arrow in the center section.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on July 31, 2023, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:


Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

Quote from: mrsman on December 31, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
The FYA could have multiple meanings.  It generally means a turn requiring a yield, but the big question is yielding to whom.  I agree with jakeroot that in this circumstance it would be far better to terminate the FYA so as to avoid conflict with opposing lefts.  i agree that in this circumstance (and in most cases utilizing the FYA for rights) the FYA can lead drivers to mean that they have a protected turn with respect to traffic, but they need to yield to pedestrians.  It is not wise to change the meaning of the same signal indication within the same intersection.

Given that the change from green orb to yellow orb to all red to cross street green arrow is a short amount of time - there is no real problem to terminate the FYA to red before allowing the green arrow to corresponde with the cross street left.  It is the safest course of action.

***2023 Update***, Went past by this intersection a few days ago after three years and unfortunately the yellow trap conflict with SB Pond St left turns and MA Route 58 right turns continues to exist to this day. I caught a dangerous conflict with the left turners on video while examining this intersection - needless to say MassDOT (who maintains this signal) has been contacted to see if this can be fixed.

For FYA right turn signals, assuming a fairly new TS2 or ATC controller... is the FYA overlap supposed to be tied to the opposing signals for the permissive phases, like with left turn signals to avoid this conflict? Are there any other settings that need to be set as well? I remember when helping to program a few Cobolt controllers, that such permissive and protected phases have to be selected for FYA overlaps (assuming the same for FRA too), but not sure if they also apply to right turn signals too.

Go to 1:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV5hG_w5h9M&t=80s) to see the yellow trap in action.

https://youtu.be/QV5hG_w5h9M?t=80
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 31, 2023, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:


Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

Quote from: mrsman on December 31, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
The FYA could have multiple meanings.  It generally means a turn requiring a yield, but the big question is yielding to whom.  I agree with jakeroot that in this circumstance it would be far better to terminate the FYA so as to avoid conflict with opposing lefts.  i agree that in this circumstance (and in most cases utilizing the FYA for rights) the FYA can lead drivers to mean that they have a protected turn with respect to traffic, but they need to yield to pedestrians.  It is not wise to change the meaning of the same signal indication within the same intersection.

Given that the change from green orb to yellow orb to all red to cross street green arrow is a short amount of time - there is no real problem to terminate the FYA to red before allowing the green arrow to corresponde with the cross street left.  It is the safest course of action.

***2023 Update***, Went past by this intersection a few days ago after three years and unfortunately the yellow trap conflict with SB Pond St left turns and MA Route 58 right turns continues to exist to this day. I caught a dangerous conflict with the left turners on video while examining this intersection - needless to say MassDOT (who maintains this signal) has been contacted to see if this can be fixed.

For FYA right turn signals, assuming a fairly new TS2 or ATC controller... is the FYA overlap supposed to be tied to the opposing signals for the permissive phases, like with left turn signals to avoid this conflict? Are there any other settings that need to be set as well? I remember when helping to program a few Cobolt controllers, that such permissive and protected phases have to be selected for FYA overlaps (assuming the same for FRA too), but not sure if they also apply to right turn signals too.

Go to 1:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV5hG_w5h9M&t=80s) to see the yellow trap in action.

https://youtu.be/QV5hG_w5h9M?t=80

The above is quite interesting.

First at 1:20 we see somebody making a dangerous left.  This isn't a yellow trap problem, he basically treated the FYA as a green arrow.

But at the end of the phase there is a problem.  They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on July 31, 2023, 11:04:43 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on December 31, 2020, 10:35:25 AM
If an FYA is used for a right turn signal, would it cause yellow trap for the oncoming left turn(s) if the FYA right turn signal(s) continued to flash yellow, while the permissive left turns are terminating? At this intersection, for the right turn overlap, the FYA continues to flash yellow arrow during the yellow change phase, then turns green when the Main St traffic gets their left green arrow.

Weymouth MA, Main and Pond St:


Quote from: jakeroot on December 31, 2020, 05:44:20 PM
Proper protocol would be to terminate the permissive phases together, and then enable the solid green arrow after the all-red phase. Presently, oncoming traffic would be trapped by traffic turning right, who is not required to yield to them during the FYA phase, and certainly not during the green arrow phase.

Quote from: mrsman on December 31, 2020, 09:49:28 PM
The FYA could have multiple meanings.  It generally means a turn requiring a yield, but the big question is yielding to whom.  I agree with jakeroot that in this circumstance it would be far better to terminate the FYA so as to avoid conflict with opposing lefts.  i agree that in this circumstance (and in most cases utilizing the FYA for rights) the FYA can lead drivers to mean that they have a protected turn with respect to traffic, but they need to yield to pedestrians.  It is not wise to change the meaning of the same signal indication within the same intersection.

Given that the change from green orb to yellow orb to all red to cross street green arrow is a short amount of time - there is no real problem to terminate the FYA to red before allowing the green arrow to corresponde with the cross street left.  It is the safest course of action.

***2023 Update***, Went past by this intersection a few days ago after three years and unfortunately the yellow trap conflict with SB Pond St left turns and MA Route 58 right turns continues to exist to this day. I caught a dangerous conflict with the left turners on video while examining this intersection - needless to say MassDOT (who maintains this signal) has been contacted to see if this can be fixed.

For FYA right turn signals, assuming a fairly new TS2 or ATC controller... is the FYA overlap supposed to be tied to the opposing signals for the permissive phases, like with left turn signals to avoid this conflict? Are there any other settings that need to be set as well? I remember when helping to program a few Cobolt controllers, that such permissive and protected phases have to be selected for FYA overlaps (assuming the same for FRA too), but not sure if they also apply to right turn signals too.

Go to 1:20 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV5hG_w5h9M&t=80s) to see the yellow trap in action.

https://youtu.be/QV5hG_w5h9M?t=80

The above is quite interesting.

First at 1:20 we see somebody making a dangerous left.  This isn't a yellow trap problem, he basically treated the FYA as a green arrow.

But at the end of the phase there is a problem.  They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.

I'm simply responding to someone who may think a red arrow has the legal restriction of no turn on red, when in reality it doesn't.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: SignBridge on August 27, 2023, 08:09:46 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.

I'm simply responding to someone who may think a red arrow has the legal restriction of no turn on red, when in reality it doesn't.

That may vary from state to state. In New York it is illegal to turn right on a red-arrow.  I don't know if Massachusetts is different.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 08:18:49 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2023, 08:09:46 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.

I'm simply responding to someone who may think a red arrow has the legal restriction of no turn on red, when in reality it doesn't.

That may vary from state to state. In New York it is illegal to turn right on a red-arrow.  I don't know if Massachusetts is different.

Yest, you can in Mass, which is why I mentioned it.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 08:24:50 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.

I'm simply responding to someone who may think a red arrow has the legal restriction of no turn on red, when in reality it doesn't.

That's a straw man argument, no one here has said or implied otherwise (at least regarding Massachusetts).

Installing a no-turn-on-red sign doesn't legally achieve anything anyways, as you cannot turn right on red legally unless your movement wouldn't interfere with those who would otherwise have the right of way. Traffic finishing their left turn legally entered on a flashing yellow arrow, and would have right of way over those turning right. Traffic could illegally keep turning right on red in the brief moments after the red light comes up, ignoring traffic trying to finish their turn. But they could do that with a no-turn-on-red sign too.

If your true argument is that drivers are more likely to obey NTOR signage...I would agree with you there. But legally it's not required to achieve the same effect.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Rothman on August 27, 2023, 08:32:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 08:18:49 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2023, 08:09:46 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 07:08:34 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. I just don't know what makes this intersection unique in deserving a restriction, when most other permissive left turn intersections with right-turn overlap signals don't have them.

Just having it going red for a moment, even if traffic kept coming, would at least give left turning drivers a legal way out of the intersection. The current phasing quite literally traps them, and oncoming traffic effectively has to be bullied into letting oncoming left turning drivers complete their maneuver.

I'm simply responding to someone who may think a red arrow has the legal restriction of no turn on red, when in reality it doesn't.

That may vary from state to state. In New York it is illegal to turn right on a red-arrow.  I don't know if Massachusetts is different.

Yest, you can in Mass, which is why I mentioned it.
Holy cow.  Wonder if this changed since I was a kid.  Forgot where along the line I was taught you couldn't turn on red at an arrow.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: PurdueBill on September 01, 2023, 08:44:12 PM
Quote from: Rothman on August 27, 2023, 08:32:31 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 08:18:49 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 27, 2023, 08:09:46 PM


That may vary from state to state. In New York it is illegal to turn right on a red-arrow.  I don't know if Massachusetts is different.

Yest, you can in Mass, which is why I mentioned it.
Holy cow.  Wonder if this changed since I was a kid.  Forgot where along the line I was taught you couldn't turn on red at an arrow.

Ditto--got learners permit and license in Mass, and do recall that back then I was told in drivers ed that one must not turn on a red arrow.  Somewhere I must have a manual from the Registry from back then, as I am a packrat...wonder if I will ever find it to be sure.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on September 13, 2023, 10:06:48 AM
Found another FYA right turn overlap yellow trap, this time in Concord, MA (Route 2 and Sudbury Rd), where oncoming left turners could be trapped by the right turn overlap. It's a single lane approach with a right turn, fully permissive FYA that replaced a 4-section, bimodal right turn overlap signal (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4473883,-71.3603485,3a,18.9y,71.39h,91.87t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s-W_LSo1xuBxAhPJYpv1s5g!2e0!5s20161101T000000!7i13312!8i6656?entry=ttu) in 2021 - it was replaced due to conflicts with WB MA Route 2 U-turners.  The phasing is similar to the Weymouth one - the difference is that the fully permissive right turn when phases 4+8 are active and right turn overlap are both shown as a right turn flashing yellow arrow (no green arrow).

Phasing that traps oncoming left turners starts at 0:43 (not my video, sign in below video was replaced with a sign saying "YIELD TO U-TURNS ON FLASHING YELLOW ARROW (https://www.google.com/maps/@42.4470642,-71.3605749,3a,28.9y,54.51h,89.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sAV7z2p-jVhDrg9W-nD5cmw!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DAV7z2p-jVhDrg9W-nD5cmw%26cb_client%3Dsearch.revgeo_and_fetch.gps%26w%3D96%26h%3D64%26yaw%3D48.09718%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu)" as of 11 Sept 23)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yhxsYxcZBA
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on January 31, 2024, 10:53:00 AM
Bumping a dormant thread... but observed several new 3-section fully permissive FYAs around Maine with varying results.

With FYAs becoming the new PPLT standard in Maine and therefore, being installed statewide at new/retrofitted locations, I have noticed that in some installations (mostly new ones), the 3-section fully permissive FYA overlap is incorrectly programmed to the adjacent thru green, rather than the oncoming thru green, which can cause yellow trap if there is an opposing protected left turn that gets recycled if the cross streets get skipped (Example: Pg15 of planset (https://www.maine.gov/mdot/contractors/projects/2022/021829.00-south-berwick/fp021829.00.pdf), video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-gVi63tLhY)). It usually gets fixed if someone reports the yellow trap to DOT (or the the appropriate agency).

Some of the new FYAs (2022-present) in Maine, NH, and MA I've seen now have FYA delay (no LPI) - ~3 seconds of red arrow to let oncoming traffic proceed before FYA.

Curious to see if incorrect 3-section fully permissive FYA overlap programming is happening with other states, or if there's still a learning curve for now with signal designers / technicians who may still be used to the old shared signal PPLT setups.




Also, the new 11th edition MUTCD (2023) now allows flashing the centre of the yellow arrow for permissive/protected setups in what's usually a fully protected signal (RA-YA-GA), per Section 4F.08 (Left) and Section 4F.15 (Right). Wonder how common this will be over the standard 4-section FYA signal as time goes on - some parts of New Hampshire (https://www.google.com/maps/@43.2043306,-71.5357964,3a,32.4y,163.74h,92.8t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s1ECKZ7P1ReTNo_QGQoa73A!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) and Vermont (https://www.google.com/maps/@44.5048971,-73.079033,3a,15y,197.55h,89.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLgqjN4pFgGwg1HdqzIEzEg!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu) have already experimented with this new configuration.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Brandon on January 31, 2024, 01:48:45 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 06:58:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 27, 2023, 06:14:55 PM
Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 27, 2023, 11:09:09 AM
Quote from: mrsman on August 26, 2023, 09:27:23 PM
They should give the right turners a brief red arrow or something so that they stop to allow for clearance of the left turners.  It is good that you have this on video, so that the problem can be clearly demonstrated.

A 'No Turn On Red' would also need to accompany the right arrow light in Mass., as they are permitted to turn right on red at a red arrow.

It would only need to be red for a few seconds to clear oncoming traffic, I don't think long enough to totally ban the maneuver.

If you have ever seen a few cars turn right on red just after the light turns red, you'll understand the reason why the restriction would be necessary.

Michigan does this all the time, using a "No Turn On Red" sign that lights up only when the opposing side has a protected arrow.

Beckley Road & Capitol Avenue, Battle Creek: https://maps.app.goo.gl/GEn4MuXiLDdx2UJc7
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: Revive 755 on February 03, 2024, 10:27:40 PM
^ There's a similar feature on part of US 275/NE 92 around Omaha.  Streetview at the 84th Street intersection (https://maps.app.goo.gl/28RMgA3s2yKJABnc6)



Asking for a friend:  Are there any flashing yellow arrow installations out there that are signed for a yellow trap with an 'Oncoming Traffic Has/May Have Extended Green' signs, possibly at a railroad crossing?
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 03, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/

Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/bfmf1oqxET7Wy2RK9

As far as I can tell, the left turns have to yield to traffic turning right, who is also yielding to the crosswalk (so they're kind of a way off to the right). I guess that's how it should be, but for some reason, it seems like a strange setup. I would have assumed that left turns would have a green orb, with right turns having to yield to everyone (peds & cars), but I guess that's actually more unusual.

OT: really remarkable how conservative some Bay Area cities are with left turn phasing. San Jose is apparently looking at this left turn as a study, to see if it will work anywhere else. Yet, aren't there (probably) hundreds of existing studies from other cities? I don't see why they need to do their own study. There are other cities in CA that have more widely adopted the flashing yellow arrow. They should talk to them about their experiences. IMO, they should install like 10 at various types of intersections, and see how they compare. I feel like a study of one intersection doesn't allow for individual nuances.

Got to take a look at this FYA doghouse 5 years later while in the San Jose area - here's what I noticed:

- All the crosswalks have LPIs upon push button activation only, the one crossing Stevens Creek Blvd has an 8 second LPI, not sure about the Henry Ave crosswalks.
- Dual entry is not enabled for both approaches, on the Henry approaches, if there is only one approach that gets a call, that side will get FYAs but the opposing side will stay red until a call is placed within the min / max green boundaries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A85LfrUuZg4
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mapman1071 on February 13, 2024, 06:54:07 PM
Quote from: FreewayDan on June 19, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: hm insulators on June 17, 2010, 11:05:15 AM
Haven't seen it in Arizona.

Scottsdale has been using the flashing yellow arrow signals for a while now.
http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/traffic/yellowarrows.asp

In Texas, the only place I know that uses flashing yellow arrows is in Richardson:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-yellowlight_08met.ART0.State.Edition1.4be3cd5.html


[/
Quote from: FreewayDan on June 19, 2010, 12:49:05 AM
Quote from: hm insulators on June 17, 2010, 11:05:15 AM
Haven't seen it in Arizona.

Scottsdale has been using the flashing yellow arrow signals for a while now.
http://www.scottsdaleaz.gov/traffic/yellowarrows.asp

In Texas, the only place I know that uses flashing yellow arrows is in Richardson:
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-yellowlight_08met.ART0.State.Edition1.4be3cd5.html


Phoenix, Glendale, Tempe & Mesa also have the flashing yellow
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 04:04:06 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 03, 2019, 02:29:26 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on August 03, 2019, 01:36:52 AM
A newly installed Flashing Yellow Arrow doghouse in San Jose, California was installed at the Stevens Creek Boulevard and Henry Avenue (https://www.google.com/maps/place/S+Henry+Ave+%26+Stevens+Creek+Blvd,+Santa+Clara,+CA+95117,+USA/@37.3232196,-121.9553873,3a,63.9y,299.68h,81.15t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sLTdwZnUigEmHsIodpqJl-Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192!4m5!3m4!1s0x808fcae68d6847b3:0x39d413aa496f10e2!8m2!3d37.3232962!4d-121.9553769) intersection in September 2018.

https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/10/04/san-jose-testing-first-flashing-yellow-left-turn-signals-roadshow/

Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/bfmf1oqxET7Wy2RK9

As far as I can tell, the left turns have to yield to traffic turning right, who is also yielding to the crosswalk (so they're kind of a way off to the right). I guess that's how it should be, but for some reason, it seems like a strange setup. I would have assumed that left turns would have a green orb, with right turns having to yield to everyone (peds & cars), but I guess that's actually more unusual.

OT: really remarkable how conservative some Bay Area cities are with left turn phasing. San Jose is apparently looking at this left turn as a study, to see if it will work anywhere else. Yet, aren't there (probably) hundreds of existing studies from other cities? I don't see why they need to do their own study. There are other cities in CA that have more widely adopted the flashing yellow arrow. They should talk to them about their experiences. IMO, they should install like 10 at various types of intersections, and see how they compare. I feel like a study of one intersection doesn't allow for individual nuances.

Got to take a look at this FYA doghouse 5 years later while in the San Jose area - here's what I noticed:

- All the crosswalks have LPIs upon push button activation only, the one crossing Stevens Creek Blvd has an 8 second LPI, not sure about the Henry Ave crosswalks.
- Dual entry is not enabled for both approaches, on the Henry approaches, if there is only one approach that gets a call, that side will get FYAs but the opposing side will stay red until a call is placed within the min / max green boundaries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A85LfrUuZg4

Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: jakeroot on February 14, 2024, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: roadfro on February 17, 2024, 04:07:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 14, 2024, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.

Very interesting setup indeed!

I'd guess the left FYAs are used to indicate that left-turning traffic has to yield to traffic that may be turning right from the opposing side of the offset stem...? It's peculiar to say the least.
Title: Re: Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?
Post by: mrsman on February 19, 2024, 07:42:04 AM
Quote from: roadfro on February 17, 2024, 04:07:59 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 14, 2024, 06:10:54 PM
Quote from: fwydriver405 on February 13, 2024, 10:05:32 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2024, 08:40:56 PM
Thank you for sharing this video, I was curious how it operated and your video does a great job demonstrating the operations.

I hate to have to ask/clarify, but if I understand correctly, both approaches can go at the same time if the pedestrian phase is activated? This is pretty unusual, but then it looks like it may be illegal to continue straight? I see the R3-5LR signs for both approaches.

Yes, both approaches have a left and right FYA display when the pedestrian phase is activated via push button activation only. I'm unsure about the legality of proceeding straight thru Stevens Creek Blvd to stay on Henry, as all of the vehicle movements I observed were turning left or right.

Another thing I find peculiar is the left-facing flashing yellow arrows, facing...nothing. Drivers turning left don't have to yield to anything. Unless the pedestrian crossing is activated, in which case maybe they need to yield to traffic turning right? Since left turns always yield. Not really sure. Very unusual setup.

Very interesting setup indeed!

I'd guess the left FYAs are used to indicate that left-turning traffic has to yield to traffic that may be turning right from the opposing side of the offset stem...? It's peculiar to say the least.

It seems that the straight through movement is prohibited.  While there is no sign saying that explicitly (straight arrow with a red crossout sign) there is a sign that shows left arrow and right arrow with one stem hanging on the mast arm of the signal.  This generally means that only the directions shown are permitted.

From GSV, it seems that the signal installation is relatively recent, in 2016 and years prior Henry Ave was controlled by stop signs having to yield to traffic on Stevens Creek.

It seems that there is a growing trend to not use a green orb signal if the straight movement is not allowed.  So the only permitted movements are left turns or right turns.  As each is required to yield to something, a protected green arrow is inappropriate, so a flashing yellow arrow is used instead.  I suppose the right turn is protected when no pedestrian pushes the button, but it is probably a good idea to keep it as a FYA, since there may be pedestrians who may make a run for it whenever Stevens Creek gets a red, even if they didnt push the button.

This is a weird signalization indeed.

L.A. tends to have a lot of split intersections, due to the way the city developed.

Here is the corner of Pico and Genessee:

https://www.google.com/maps/@34.0507399,-118.3635829,3a,75y,22.69h,76.71t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sfLgJpbTYhzHvFYHFCx2sjQ!2e0!6shttps:%2F%2Fstreetviewpixels-pa.googleapis.com%2Fv1%2Fthumbnail%3Fpanoid%3DfLgJpbTYhzHvFYHFCx2sjQ%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D216.83968%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

The pedestrian crosswalks are at the edges of the intersection, not the middle.  Also, there is split-phasing and the straight through movement is allowed. 

As a child, I remember this corner used to have regular signalization, left turners would simply have to yield  to traffic that may be coming out of the opposing right corner, but  I certainly agree that the current split-phasing is the safer approach, but of course, the main downside to split-phasing is that it means more red time for Pico.