Countries that touch but have no road crossings

Started by getemngo, March 26, 2014, 11:58:53 AM

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Brandon

Quote from: vdeane on April 06, 2014, 02:53:00 PM
Alanland borders every country in the world.

And no other country in the world.
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J N Winkler

Quote from: Chris on March 26, 2014, 12:09:40 PMAlso, it's doubtful how much of a road border crossing Israel has with its neighboring countries (for public travel).

Israel borders on Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and Lebanon.  Crossing from Israel to Jordan is possible via the Allenby Bridge.  I also suspect crossing between Israel and Egypt is possible via Israel Route 90 westward out of Eilat (situated just west of Aqaba, Jordan, on Israel's very short strip of Red Sea coastline).  Since Jordan and Egypt have both concluded peace treaties with Israel, neither country excludes Israelis or foreign nationals whose travel documentation contains evidence of a visit to Israel.

Both Lebanon and Syria refuse to admit holders of Israeli passports and foreigners bearing evidence of a visit to Israel.  Foreigners who wish to visit Israel and its Arab enemies as part of a single Middle Eastern trip therefore have to go to Israel after the Arab countries, entering Israel by air or by land (usually at the Allenby Bridge).  If they choose to enter by land, then they have to accept that a Jordanian or Egyptian exit stamp indicating transit through a crossing that adjoins Israel is proof of a visit to Israel even if the passport does not contain Israeli entry stamps, which effectively "burns" that passport for further travel to Arab countries.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

J N Winkler

Quote from: Brandon on March 27, 2014, 11:37:38 AMNot exactly true.  There is a land border between Cuba and the US Naval Base at Guantanamo Bay.  The US has leased Gitmo since 1903 and sent checks to the Cuban government for the lease (uncashed since 1959 - nobody said Castro was smart).

My recollection is that the lease amount is very small (essentially a peppercorn rent), so Castro loses very little by refusing to cash the checks.

In any case, Guantánamo Bay is still under Cuban sovereignty.  The border at the base boundary is not an international boundary between the US and Cuba, but rather the limit of the Cuban customs area.  There is no general requirement that a country operate a customs area that coincides perfectly with its borders.

In principle Castro could seek to vacate or repudiate the Guantánamo lease.  I believe he has not done so for two principal reasons:  (1) he does not want to spend the resources (either in money or blood) it would take to eject American troops, and (2) it serves propaganda purposes to have a de facto American occupation he can rail against.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Duke87

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 10, 2014, 11:28:55 AM
Both Lebanon and Syria refuse to admit holders of Israeli passports and foreigners bearing evidence of a visit to Israel.  Foreigners who wish to visit Israel and its Arab enemies as part of a single Middle Eastern trip therefore have to go to Israel after the Arab countries, entering Israel by air or by land (usually at the Allenby Bridge).  If they choose to enter by land, then they have to accept that a Jordanian or Egyptian exit stamp indicating transit through a crossing that adjoins Israel is proof of a visit to Israel even if the passport does not contain Israeli entry stamps, which effectively "burns" that passport for further travel to Arab countries.

This ties into another question I have pondered: is it possible for any individual to legally visit every country on Earth? If so, what kind of passport would you need in order to do it? A US passport obviously wouldn't work since that would exclude you from Cuba, and probably several other countries as well. What about a Swiss passport? :)
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

agentsteel53

#29
Quote from: Duke87 on April 17, 2014, 09:02:25 PMA US passport obviously wouldn't work since that would exclude you from Cuba, and probably several other countries as well. What about a Swiss passport? :)

you can get exemptions (religious, journalist, relative, etc) to visit Cuba, and I believe also the occasional invite to the North Korean DMZ.  I don't know what other countries are either a) explicitly closed to Americans (I don't believe Syria is, it just may be a spot tricky) or b) closed by Uncle Sam (again, Syria).

many places that are stereotypically considered "off limits" are quite possible - Iran comes to mind.  (just visit Israel last.  IIRC, Iran is one of the countries that enforces that silly ban, and Syria definitely does.)

that said, if I needed to name a specific passport, I'll bet most EU countries, especially those who have had EU membership for quite a few years... Sweden, quite likely.  I don't think my country (Hungary) has any bans in either direction, but as a US permanent resident, I cannot visit Cuba or North Korea.
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corco

#30
It's actually pretty easy for a US citizen to visit North Korea- you can't travel freely (nobody else can either) but there are a number of tour companies that take you to Pyongyang and the DMZ. http://www.juchetravelservices.com/

You don't even have to go via Canada like with the Cubans- US citizens are legally allowed to enter North Korea.


oscar

#31
Quote from: Duke87 on April 17, 2014, 09:02:25 PM
This ties into another question I have pondered: is it possible for any individual to legally visit every country on Earth? If so, what kind of passport would you need in order to do it? A US passport obviously wouldn't work since that would exclude you from Cuba, and probably several other countries as well. What about a Swiss passport? :)

U.S. citizens visit Cuba, including some U.S. government employees.  I'm not aware of passport issues for them.  They have to dance around/use loopholes in U.S. laws relating to our embargo of Cuba, but it's not a problem on the Cuban side.

Travel by U.S. citizens also happens to other places with no diplomatic relations with the U.S., including places like North Korea.

Some countries won't let you in if your passport has a visa stamp showing a prior visit to Israel.  I understand that the U.S. and other governments will accomodate travelers that want to both visit Israel and present to other countries a passport without an Israeli visa stamp, such as by issuing a duplicate passport.
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agentsteel53

Quote from: corco on April 17, 2014, 09:18:56 PMUS citizens are legally allowed to enter North Korea.

who knew.  but not Cuba.  I wonder why the disparity.  Cuba too filthy rich and it would give the Americans bad ideas about the glories of communism?
live from sunny San Diego.

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1995hoo

It isn't illegal for US citizens or US nationals to visit Cuba without government permission. The government tried that and the Supreme Court, to their credit, struck it down. So instead, the government claims it is illegal for you to spend money in Cuba unless you get a license from OFAC, and they further contend that travel to Cuba is proof you spent money there (which isn't necessarily a valid assumption if you take a prepaid tour). However, they've apparently never prosecuted anyone for this because they're afraid they'll lose again, so instead they do their damndest to try to intimidate people into paying a fine without being prosecuted.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
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commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

J N Winkler

#34
Quote from: Duke87 on April 17, 2014, 09:02:25 PMThis ties into another question I have pondered: is it possible for any individual to legally visit every country on Earth?

It is possible--several have done it--but there is no nationality of passport that offers visa-free entry to every country on Earth.  Some (a few of the 'stans in Central Asia come to mind) are simply not open for tourism:  in order to get a visa, you need to be able to specify some business-related reason it is in that country's interest to admit you.  Others (e.g. Iran, Libya under Gaddafi, Iraq under Saddam) do admit or have admitted visitors for tourism, but under quite onerous restrictions.  In Iran now I believe you are required to be part of a tour run by a locally licensed operator subject to police supervision, with a similar restriction being operative in Iraq under Saddam.  In Libya under Gaddafi there was more capability to self-guide, but you had to be accompanied at all times by a minder who could be asked to report on your activities to the police.

QuoteIf so, what kind of passport would you need in order to do it? A US passport obviously wouldn't work since that would exclude you from Cuba, and probably several other countries as well. What about a Swiss passport? :)

Actually, very few nations issue passports that will get holders visa-free or visa-on-arrival entry to more countries than a US passport, and Switzerland is not one of them.  The most commonly cited measure is the annually compiled Henley and Partners Visa Restriction Index, and Wikipedia reproduces a substantial extract from the 2012 edition:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement#Entrance_restrictions_in_certain_countries

It shows the US in a three-way tie at 166, with 169 for Denmark in first place; Switzerland is in seventh place (another tie) at 162.  Israel (141) is actually ahead of Mexico (127).

An extract of the updated edition for 2013 that does not show the US is here (downloading the full list means giving up an email address):

https://www.henleyglobal.com/visa-restrictions/
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

J N Winkler

Quote from: oscar on April 17, 2014, 09:21:23 PMSome countries won't let you in if your passport has a visa stamp showing a prior visit to Israel.  I understand that the U.S. and other governments will accommodate travelers that want to both visit Israel and present to other countries a passport without an Israeli visa stamp, such as by issuing a duplicate passport.

The US will do it, but it is not considered routine provision.  You have to apply for the second valid passport through the same procedure used to obtain the first one, and supply a written statement explaining why one valid passport is not enough.  The justification is evaluated on a case-by-case basis and if the US decides to issue you a second passport (which is by no means a given), validity is limited to two years.

http://jerusalem.usconsulate.gov/second-valid-passports.html

I have heard of second passports being issued to Americans who have to leave a country in a hurry after police confiscation of their first passports.  For casual visits to Israel, it seems to be more common to ask the Israeli immigration officers to place their stamps on separate pieces of paper (which I understand their Cuban counterparts are also willing to do) and to avoid exiting transits through non-Israeli ports (such as the Jordanian side of the Allenby Bridge) which are constructive proof of travel to Israel.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

Duke87

I am aware that no nationality offers visa-free travel to everywhere. Visiting countries with visas obtained by legal means still fits within the question here. But even with that in mind, logistical problems such as countries denying entry to people who have been to Israel arise. And that example is not unique: if you are a foreign national attempting to enter the US with a stamp in your passport from, say, Yemen... good luck.

In terms of visiting a country like Cuba by having them stamp a separate piece of paper rather than your passport, I don't know that I would qualify that as "legal", since it is an obvious attempt to cheat the system even if it isn't explicitly against the law in the country it's taking place in.

Likewise, getting issued a second passport is similarly shady. That said, using two different passports is perfectly legit if you are a dual citizen. Depending on where your two passports are from, this may potentially make your life a lot easier - I met someone not too long ago who was a dual US/Iranian citizen. That dude has travel possibilities!
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

J N Winkler

Quote from: Duke87 on April 17, 2014, 11:49:07 PMI am aware that no nationality offers visa-free travel to everywhere. Visiting countries with visas obtained by legal means still fits within the question here. But even with that in mind, logistical problems such as countries denying entry to people who have been to Israel arise. And that example is not unique: if you are a foreign national attempting to enter the US with a stamp in your passport from, say, Yemen... good luck.

I don't think even a Yemeni entry stamp would be a problem for, say, a passport holder from one of the EU-15 countries whose appearance, dress, and deportment conformed to stereotypical western European norms.

As for Israel, having the Israeli immigration officers stamp a separate piece of paper is only one of the dodges.  Another that is perfectly legal is to delay a visit to Israel until after you have visited the other countries that bar entry to arrivals whose documentation shows evidence of travel to Israel.

QuoteIn terms of visiting a country like Cuba by having them stamp a separate piece of paper rather than your passport, I don't know that I would qualify that as "legal", since it is an obvious attempt to cheat the system even if it isn't explicitly against the law in the country it's taking place in.

As 1995hoo points out, it is perfectly legal to go to Cuba if you have a license from OFAC or go with a prepaid tour so that you are not directly participating in the Cuban economy.

QuoteLikewise, getting issued a second passport is similarly shady.

It is perfectly legal as long as the second passport is issued with the approval of the Secretary of State.  If a foreign country is so repressive that a situation develops where a foreign traveler needs a second US passport, then that is that country's lookout.  It is not as if the US obfuscates the existence of second passports--standard US passports have ten-year validity, while second passports have two-year validity, and since both issue and expiration dates appear on the photo page, it is fairly easy for someone in the know to spot a second passport.

QuoteThat said, using two different passports is perfectly legit if you are a dual citizen.

Strictly speaking, this is true only if the countries involved allow their nationals to maintain dual citizenship.  This is not a problem in the US for dual nationals who have US citizenship from birth, but it is in Mexico, where the constitution says in black and white that Mexican nationality is not compatible with citizenship in any other country.  And even in the US it is legally sticky to naturalize as a US citizen while holding on to foreign citizenship.

QuoteDepending on where your two passports are from, this may potentially make your life a lot easier - I met someone not too long ago who was a dual US/Iranian citizen. That dude has travel possibilities!

The Iranian passport likely does not add much to his travel possibilities.  While it gives him entry to Iran without a visa, it also establishes him as an Iranian citizen, and depending on the circumstances of his or his family's arrival in the US, that means the Iranians can pursue him for a refund of his or his family's putative share of the damages Iran was forced to pay the US for the embassy takeover and related events in 1979.  That amount runs to the thousands of dollars.  There are few other countries even in central Asia where an Iranian passport affords easier entry than a US passport.

Some countries are surprisingly unkind to holders of their own passports.  Italy, for example, charges an annual gate tax of about €30 to citizens who use an Italian passport to enter or exit Italy.  I used to know an Italian/US dual national who used his US passport on trips to Italy for precisely this reason; for him the main advantage of Italian citizenship was the ability to obtain residency automatically anywhere in the EU.  (The basic rule for any EU country is that it must treat citizens of any other EU country the same as its own citizens, which is one reason some EU countries use residency as well as citizenship tests for certain public services in order to discourage casual visitors from using their EU citizenship to arbitrage away shortcomings in welfare provision back home.  Years ago I was flying to Barcelona when I happened to sit next to an Englishwoman travelling to Spain to dodge the NHS queue for back surgery:  this worked only because she had previously lived in Spain for a few years and had maintained her medical registration there.)  Also, as a consequence of the Good Friday agreement, people born in Northern Ireland are citizens of the UK and Ireland and are therefore entitled to obtain passports from both countries.  But if a Northern Irish traveller enters a foreign country on a UK passport, gets in trouble, and then appeals to the Irish for consular assistance on the basis that he or she is also an Irish citizen, the standard response is a cold shrug.

Returning to your original question, I recollect the Guardian running a short article several years ago (which I haven't managed to re-find in a casual Google search) about several people who had managed to visit all the countries in the world.  I think one of the people featured had an Italian passport, but might have had dual nationality as well, and had an occupational reason to travel since he was a development economist.  I am not aware of any Americans that have managed the feat, but I don't see any reason to believe it is impossible for someone who holds only a US passport.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

1995hoo

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 17, 2014, 10:53:14 PM
The US will do it, but it is not considered routine provision.  You have to apply for the second valid passport through the same procedure used to obtain the first one, and supply a written statement explaining why one valid passport is not enough.  The justification is evaluated on a case-by-case basis and if the US decides to issue you a second passport (which is by no means a given), validity is limited to two years.

....

I find it interesting that the countries that deny entry to people with Israeli stamps are apparently not wise to this and do not deny entry to people with a passport whose validity is two years. That is, it's routine for immigration officials to check expiry dates and to deny entry to people whose passports expire within six months. A US passport also shows the date of issue. A savvy immigration officer could note the two-year period and presumably deny entry based on a presumption the bearer had a second passport due to travel to Israel.

A presumption like that might be questionable under US law, but other countries are not bound by US law.
"You know, you never have a guaranteed spot until you have a spot guaranteed."
—Olaf Kolzig, as quoted in the Washington Times on March 28, 2003,
commenting on the Capitals clinching a playoff spot.

"That sounded stupid, didn't it?"
—Kolzig, to the same reporter a few seconds later.

agentsteel53

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 17, 2014, 10:37:03 PM169 for Denmark in first place

having guessed Sweden (which comes in at #2 with 168) - I now must wonder what is the country which lets in Danes but not Swedes.  the two places are similar enough culturally and politically that it makes me wonder what's going on.

interestingly, this page shows Sweden at #1 with 173; Denmark at 172.

https://www.henleyglobal.com/visa-restrictions/

in this case, my question would be "what is the country that admits Swedes, but not Danes".
live from sunny San Diego.

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agentsteel53

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 18, 2014, 02:36:25 AM
I don't think even a Yemeni entry stamp would be a problem for, say, a passport holder from one of the EU-15 countries whose appearance, dress, and deportment conformed to stereotypical western European norms.

what about the opposite case?  say, someone with Saudi citizenship and Saudi appearance/dress/deportment/etc - does having the Yemeni stamp make his life any more difficult?

QuoteAnd even in the US it is legally sticky to naturalize as a US citizen while holding on to foreign citizenship.

indeed; this is one reason I have not pursued US citizenship with any level of seriousness.  with my Hungarian passport and my US permanent resident card (and SENTRI card), I think I've maximized my ability to cross borders quickly and efficiently. 
live from sunny San Diego.

http://shields.aaroads.com

jake@aaroads.com

J N Winkler

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 18, 2014, 08:54:20 AMI find it interesting that the countries that deny entry to people with Israeli stamps are apparently not wise to this and do not deny entry to people with a passport whose validity is two years. That is, it's routine for immigration officials to check expiry dates and to deny entry to people whose passports expire within six months. A US passport also shows the date of issue. A savvy immigration officer could note the two-year period and presumably deny entry based on a presumption the bearer had a second passport due to travel to Israel.

A presumption like that might be questionable under US law, but other countries are not bound by US law.

The way around this problem is to enter those countries using the first passport, which has ten-year validity, rather than the second passport.  The US is not obliged to inform any other countries when it issues a second passport.

The main context in which a second passport can fall short of solving a problem is when a US citizen tries to escape a country where the police have confiscated his or her passport.  In such cases the usual stumbling block is not the two-year validity (which can be explained away as normal policy for a lost or stolen passport--is the border guard going to be sufficiently au fait with US passport issuance procedures to question that?), but rather the lack of an entry stamp, indicating the passport was issued clean to the holder while he was in-country.  If the country has, say, a policy of issuing six-month entry only to passport holders with a minimum of six months' remaining validity, then the game is up.

(Side observation:  in spite of computerization and machine-readable passports, getting out of some countries hasn't changed much since the 1930's and 1940's, where you had a chance as long as you could stay ahead of telephone notifications to border posts, as the Portuguese consul Sousa Mendes had to do in 1940 when the Germans invaded France and he personally escorted several tens of thousands of Jewish refugees across the Spanish and Portuguese borders.  He had previously issued Portuguese visas to them, but this was in defiance of direct orders from Lisbon, so there was no way to guarantee they would be honored except by careful selection of entry points.)

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 18, 2014, 09:34:08 AMhaving guessed Sweden (which comes in at #2 with 168) - I now must wonder what is the country which lets in Danes but not Swedes.  the two places are similar enough culturally and politically that it makes me wonder what's going on.

It wouldn't surprise me if it were an Arab country.  The Muhammad cartoons controversy was Danish, not Swedish, and compared to Sweden, Denmark is remarkably lacking in political correctness.  This Guardian article (which caused considerable controversy in the Scandinavian countries) explores some of these fissures:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/27/scandinavian-miracle-brutal-truth-denmark-norway-sweden

Quoteinterestingly, this page shows Sweden at #1 with 173; Denmark at 172.

https://www.henleyglobal.com/visa-restrictions/

in this case, my question would be "what is the country that admits Swedes, but not Danes".

This is the 2013 version of the index, which doesn't show where the US stands in relation to the others, probably to ensure that Americans will give up email addresses to find out how the mother country ranks.  My own question is:  what are these four or five countries that came out of the woodwork?

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 18, 2014, 09:41:27 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 18, 2014, 02:36:25 AM
I don't think even a Yemeni entry stamp would be a problem for, say, a passport holder from one of the EU-15 countries whose appearance, dress, and deportment conformed to stereotypical western European norms.

what about the opposite case?  say, someone with Saudi citizenship and Saudi appearance/dress/deportment/etc - does having the Yemeni stamp make his life any more difficult?

It probably does create difficulty, but during the visa approval process rather than entry to the US, since Saudis don't get visa-free US entry.

Quote
QuoteAnd even in the US it is legally sticky to naturalize as a US citizen while holding on to foreign citizenship.

indeed; this is one reason I have not pursued US citizenship with any level of seriousness.  with my Hungarian passport and my US permanent resident card (and SENTRI card), I think I've maximized my ability to cross borders quickly and efficiently.

I know people who have come down on both sides of this question.  My high-school Latin teacher and her husband were unwilling to take a chance on US citizenship being revoked once it was granted, so they actually went through the procedure to renounce British citizenship.  ("How do we do this?"  "You either insult the Queen, or fill out a form."  "Give us the forms, please.")  Meanwhile, one of my relatives has dual citizenship in the US and Canada as a result of Canadian birth and US naturalization, and keeps passports from both countries up to date.

There is a similar dilemma that faces natural-born US citizens who wish to naturalize in other countries.  I have heard of people renouncing US citizenship in this case just so they don't have to wait for the other shoe to drop when the US sees they have a passport from another country and construes this as relinquishment of US citizenship.  But apparently this outcome is avoidable by filling out a form declaring that naturalization in another country is not intent to renounce US citizenship, and making sure the US passport is always renewed.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

vdeane

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 18, 2014, 08:54:20 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 17, 2014, 10:53:14 PM
The US will do it, but it is not considered routine provision.  You have to apply for the second valid passport through the same procedure used to obtain the first one, and supply a written statement explaining why one valid passport is not enough.  The justification is evaluated on a case-by-case basis and if the US decides to issue you a second passport (which is by no means a given), validity is limited to two years.

....

I find it interesting that the countries that deny entry to people with Israeli stamps are apparently not wise to this and do not deny entry to people with a passport whose validity is two years. That is, it's routine for immigration officials to check expiry dates and to deny entry to people whose passports expire within six months. A US passport also shows the date of issue. A savvy immigration officer could note the two-year period and presumably deny entry based on a presumption the bearer had a second passport due to travel to Israel.

A presumption like that might be questionable under US law, but other countries are not bound by US law.
A second passport isn't the only reason one might have a passport with only 2 year validity; the state department also describes "a citizenship, identity, name, or gender documentation deficiency".  In fact, until a few years ago it was illegal for a transgender person to have a full 10 year validity passport without surgery.

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 18, 2014, 09:41:27 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on April 18, 2014, 02:36:25 AM
I don't think even a Yemeni entry stamp would be a problem for, say, a passport holder from one of the EU-15 countries whose appearance, dress, and deportment conformed to stereotypical western European norms.

what about the opposite case?  say, someone with Saudi citizenship and Saudi appearance/dress/deportment/etc - does having the Yemeni stamp make his life any more difficult?

QuoteAnd even in the US it is legally sticky to naturalize as a US citizen while holding on to foreign citizenship.

indeed; this is one reason I have not pursued US citizenship with any level of seriousness.  with my Hungarian passport and my US permanent resident card (and SENTRI card), I think I've maximized my ability to cross borders quickly and efficiently. 
I believe most countries don't take America's naturalization oath renouncing citizenship of other countries seriously, but there are some who do; I'm not sure which category Hungary is in.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

ghYHZ

Quote from: 1995hoo on April 17, 2014, 09:56:52 PM
It isn't illegal for US citizens or US nationals to visit Cuba without government permission. The government tried that and the Supreme Court, to their credit, struck it down.......

And quite a few travel between the US and Cuba everyday: Here's a link to FlightAware flight tracker for Havana......look at the number of flight available between Miami and Havana for today (it's continuously updated so you might have to page thru) These are charter type flights, not scheduled airline service.

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/MUHA

agentsteel53

QuoteIt wouldn't surprise me if it were an Arab country.  The Muhammad cartoons controversy was Danish, not Swedish, and compared to Sweden, Denmark is remarkably lacking in political correctness.  This Guardian article (which caused considerable controversy in the Scandinavian countries) explores some of these fissures:

ahh yes, those cartoons.  here I thought Sweden was also "remarkably lacking in political correctness" (read: rise of right-wing parties which appear to be present in all northern European countries worried about immigration, especially from the Arab world.)

Quotewhat are these four or five countries that came out of the woodwork?
South Sudan and Kosovo would be my starting points for educated guessing, being entirely new countries and all.  they may simply not have percolated through the analysis by 2012, and have done so by 2013.

QuoteIt probably does create difficulty, but during the visa approval process rather than entry to the US, since Saudis don't get visa-free US entry.

eh, let's go with a different country, then.  I looked it up, and the US Visa Waiver Program definitely has a small list of countries, and one extremely slanted towards "the west".  the general categories are "Europe", "Australia and New Zealand", a few Asian countries (Japan, Brunei, Singapore, Taiwan), and Chile, which is noted to be a recent addition (last few weeks).  conspicuously, Canada is missing from the Visa Waiver Program; I suppose the entry standard between the US and Canada is unique.

so, for the purposes of argument - let's change our hypothetical Saudi to a citizen (subject?) of Brunei. 
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agentsteel53

Quote from: ghYHZ on April 18, 2014, 12:34:53 PM
And quite a few travel between the US and Cuba everyday: Here's a link to FlightAware flight tracker for Havana......look at the number of flight available between Miami and Havana for today (it's continuously updated so you might have to page thru) These are charter type flights, not scheduled airline service.

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/MUHA

I had vaguely remembered that there is one scheduled flight between Miami and Havana per day; a bit of research yields the info that this is a "scheduled charter" flight.  that seems like a contradiction to me... does anyone have any clarifying info?
live from sunny San Diego.

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ghYHZ

#46
Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 18, 2014, 01:35:39 PM
I had vaguely remembered that there is one scheduled flight between Miami and Havana per day; a bit of research yields the info that this is a "scheduled charter" flight.  that seems like a contradiction to me... does anyone have any clarifying info?

Yes it does seem like a contradiction.

There are 10 flights showing right now on the flight aware page for Havana and here's one from the American Airlines Flight Status page......It's AA flight 9450 from Miami to Havana. (you might have to type in 9450 for the status if the link doesn't work)

http://www.aa.com/travelInformation/gatesTimesSubmit.do;jsessionid=5449C7942A7E60E93ADDD4DA64149F28


J N Winkler

Quote from: agentsteel53 on April 18, 2014, 01:32:08 PMso, for the purposes of argument - let's change our hypothetical Saudi to a citizen (subject?) of Brunei.

It's an interesting question.  I'd think a citizen of Brunei, which is in the VWP largely on the basis of per capita income but has recently announced its intention to institute sharia law (including stoning and amputation) for the Muslim majority, might receive some close questioning but the presumption would still be in favor of US entry.  Even with all Yemen's troubles with AQAP and localized rebellions, there are too many legitimate reasons (journalism, aid, archaeology, etc.) a foreigner might want to go there.
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agentsteel53

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 18, 2014, 02:31:46 PMBrunei, which is in the VWP largely on the basis of per capita income but has recently announced its intention to institute sharia law (including stoning and amputation) for the Muslim majority

yeah, the inclusion of Brunei in the Visa Waiver country list raised an eyebrow for me.  if Brunei, why not Kuwait, which has per capita income comparable to most of Europe and liberal laws and culture (in the context of the Arabian Peninsula) - or, if we're just going by absolute numbers... Qatar?
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1995hoo

Quote from: J N Winkler on April 18, 2014, 12:27:02 PM
Quote from: 1995hoo on April 18, 2014, 08:54:20 AMI find it interesting that the countries that deny entry to people with Israeli stamps are apparently not wise to this and do not deny entry to people with a passport whose validity is two years. That is, it's routine for immigration officials to check expiry dates and to deny entry to people whose passports expire within six months. A US passport also shows the date of issue. A savvy immigration officer could note the two-year period and presumably deny entry based on a presumption the bearer had a second passport due to travel to Israel.

A presumption like that might be questionable under US law, but other countries are not bound by US law.

The way around this problem is to enter those countries using the first passport, which has ten-year validity, rather than the second passport.  The US is not obliged to inform any other countries when it issues a second passport.

....

Ahh, yes, of course. I'm facepalming myself because that's so obvious. I suppose it could be an issue if you had already gone to Israel when you only had one passport (say, because you did not anticipate travelling to the countries where this is a problem) and then your circumstances changed and you needed the second passport then.
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