CVC Question: HOV when towing

[michravera]

I passed a Humvee that was towing a small cargo trailer that was, to my annoyance, in the third lane from the right this afternoon along I-880 by pulling into the part time HOV lane. This was on a Sunday midday, so the HOV lane was free-for-all. Now the guy in the Humvee was probably not going fast enough for the second lane (third from the right), another annoyance and he probably wasn't dramatically exceeding the 55MPH speed limit for vehicles that are towing (although he almost certainly was exceeding it). I reminded him of the restriction and he did move over when safe. That's not my question. It is only what motivated it.

The question is whether combination vehicles that are normally restricted to the right lane (or second right lane) and which have a 55MPH speed limit are allowed to use part-time HOV lanes if they have sufficient occupants. Can someone quote the CVC on this? One section (in 24xxx somewhere) says they can't. Where is the section that authorizes part-time HOV lanes? Does it unambiguously resolve the apparent conflict? I do know that the lane restriction would be eased to allow the combo vehicle to *GET INTO* the part-time HOV lane, if it were allowed.

What does annoy me is that amateur drivers who hitch up a trailer often are either not told when they rent it or do not remember their lane restrictions (and often not of their speed limit). I am sure that professional drivers do know about the restriction (even if they don't always obey it on I-5 in the Central Valley).

[Occidental Tourist]

A court of appeal case holds that the HOV lane counts when determining lane restrictions.  For example, on a regular freeway with three lanes in one direction, a vehicle hauling a trailer would be restricted to the number 3 lane except for passing. But on a freeway with three mixed-flow lanes of travel and an HOV lane, that same vehicle would be allowed the right two lanes without restriction, because under the vehicle code that freeway is now considered a four-lane freeway.

Given this, I can't ever see a realistic circumstance where a vehicle hauling a trailer would be permitted in the HOV lane, because that HOV lane will always be to the left of the left-most permissible travel lane of that vehicle.  Theoretically, if a "Super-Two" existed that also had an HOV lane, presumably a vehicle hauling a trailer could in that one circumstance could enter the HOV lane to pass a vehicle in the mixed-flow lane.

[michravera]

A court of appeal case holds that the HOV lane counts when determining lane restrictions.  For example, on a regular freeway with three lanes in one direction, a vehicle hauling a trailer would be restricted to the number 3 lane except for passing. But on a freeway with three mixed-flow lanes of travel and an HOV lane, that same vehicle would be allowed the right two lanes without restriction, because under the vehicle code that freeway is now considered a four-lane freeway.

Given this, I can't ever see a realistic circumstance where a vehicle hauling a trailer would be permitted in the HOV lane, because that HOV lane will always be to the left of the left-most permissible travel lane of that vehicle.  Theoretically, if a "Super-Two" existed that also had an HOV lane, presumably a vehicle hauling a trailer could in that one circumstance could enter the HOV lane to pass a vehicle in the mixed-flow lane.

Maybe as you describe a single mixed lane and a part-time HOV lane. To the case (which may not have resolved this issue): Does a full-time HOV lane (with either a separate roadway or a heavily restricted roadway) count toward lane restrictions? Are combo vehicles allowed in those, if they have a sufficient number of occupants?

[jrouse]

CVC 22406 lists the vehicles subject to the 55 MPH maximum speed limit.

CVC 21655 restricts these vehicles to the right-hand lane, or, if the highway has 4 or more lanes in one direction, the right 2 lanes.

CVC 21655.5 is the section on HOV lanes and it indicates that hours of operation must be posted.  It does not make a distinction as to whether the HOV lane is on the left or right side of the road.

However, because HOV lanes on the mainlines of all freeways in California are on the left (with the exception of lanes at the Bay Bridge toll plaza), we at Caltrans quote Sections 22406 and 21655 to explain to people that they are unable to drive in the HOV lane when towing.


iPhone

[myosh_tino]

It's also common sense.

Because all vehicles towing a trailer are limited to 55 MPH by law, it doesn't make sense to allow them in the HOV lane on a freeway with a 65 MPH speed limit.

[kphoger]

It's also common sense.

Because all vehicles towing a trailer are limited to 55 MPH by law, it doesn't make sense to allow them in the HOV lane on a freeway with a 65 MPH speed limit.

Unless the flow of traffic in the main lines is below 55 mph.

[jeffandnicole]

What isn't common sense is having split limits in place for different classes or functions of vehicles. 

[michravera]

What isn't common sense is having split limits in place for different classes or functions of vehicles.

I am sorry, but I don't agree.

You seem to be from the east, but I am sure that you have been around.

Have you ever driven a light pickup truck on the undivided two-lane portions of US-95 in rural western Nevada? Have you almost been blown off the road when a triple going "just a bit" a bit above the 70MPH speed limit drove by you in the other direction in a decent wind? I have and it isn't fun.

If it were possible, ideally, trucks would have their own roads. What we have in California is, in so far as practical, segregation of trucks and trailers from the more manueverable vehicles. They basically have to stay in the right lane and they are limited to 55MPH. Trucks can't stop on a dime. They often can't stop on a football field. Yes, almost all of the people who dirve them are professionals and they have good skills, but they can't repeal the laws of physics. With a full load, they also often can't get up to speed on the same day. ... and neither they nor the car drivers would want them to.

Speeds that are safe for a VW Rabbit pickup at 600 kg (or even a Ford Exterminator at 4T), just aren't safe for a vehicle that fully loaded will sink a battleship. ... and since we can't afford to build them their own roads and it is our custom to exit a roadway on the right, it has to be possible for a car to find its way into the right lane in order to exit. It is a lot easier and safer for a car to slow down to 55MPH to exit than to insist that a truck speed up to 80MPH.

There are several places in California where we have speed limtis that differ by 30 MPH. On the LA side down slope of the Grapevine, there is a place where the differential is 65/35MPH . This is to REDUCE problems. There may be a 70/35MPH split somewhere on I-15 or I-40.

It's not differential SPEED LIMITS that cause problems. It differential SPEEDS by vehicles sharing the same lanes.

[Occidental Tourist]

CVC 22406 lists the vehicles subject to the 55 MPH maximum speed limit.

CVC 21655 restricts these vehicles to the right-hand lane, or, if the highway has 4 or more lanes in one direction, the right 2 lanes.

CVC 21655.5 is the section on HOV lanes and it indicates that hours of operation must be posted.  It does not make a distinction as to whether the HOV lane is on the left or right side of the road.

However, because HOV lanes on the mainlines of all freeways in California are on the left (with the exception of lanes at the Bay Bridge toll plaza), we at Caltrans quote Sections 22406 and 21655 to explain to people that they are unable to drive in the HOV lane when towing.


iPhone

Question for you: As I notice more and more trucks in the number two lane on freeways, I have a question about enforcement of lane restrictions.  Many times a freeway with four mixed flow lanes in one direction will reduce to three as it traverses a freeway-to-freeway interchange, i.e., the number four lane turns into an exit lane for the other freeway.

When this happens, in many instances trucks will move from the number 3 lane to the number 2 lane.  When the freeway passes the other freeway, it will pick up a mixed flow lane again.  Often times trucks linger in the number 2 lane long after the number 4 lane has reappeared.

To your understanding, what is the law (or how is it enforced) for trucks returning to the number 3 lane after a mixed flow lane reappears?  Are they given a certain number of feet, is it a "reasonably safe to move right" standard, or something like that?  Are they even allowed to move into the number 2 lane through the interchange when there are only three lanes (e.g., I see a lot of circumstances where the approach BGS for the interchange identifies "Trucks OK" for the number 3 lane but is unmarked for the number 2 lane)?

[michravera]

CVC 22406 lists the vehicles subject to the 55 MPH maximum speed limit.

CVC 21655 restricts these vehicles to the right-hand lane, or, if the highway has 4 or more lanes in one direction, the right 2 lanes.

CVC 21655.5 is the section on HOV lanes and it indicates that hours of operation must be posted.  It does not make a distinction as to whether the HOV lane is on the left or right side of the road.

However, because HOV lanes on the mainlines of all freeways in California are on the left (with the exception of lanes at the Bay Bridge toll plaza), we at Caltrans quote Sections 22406 and 21655 to explain to people that they are unable to drive in the HOV lane when towing.


iPhone

Question for you: As I notice more and more trucks in the number two lane on freeways, I have a question about enforcement of lane restrictions.  Many times a freeway with four mixed flow lanes in one direction will reduce to three as it traverses a freeway-to-freeway interchange, i.e., the number four lane turns into an exit lane for the other freeway.

When this happens, in many instances trucks will move from the number 3 lane to the number 2 lane.  When the freeway passes the other freeway, it will pick up a mixed flow lane again.  Often times trucks linger in the number 2 lane long after the number 4 lane has reappeared.

To your understanding, what is the law (or how is it enforced) for trucks returning to the number 3 lane after a mixed flow lane reappears?  Are they given a certain number of feet, is it a "reasonably safe to move right" standard, or something like that?  Are they even allowed to move into the number 2 lane through the interchange when there are only three lanes (e.g., I see a lot of circumstances where the approach BGS for the interchange identifies "Trucks OK" for the number 3 lane but is unmarked for the number 2 lane)?

Unless specifically permitted by signage, trucks aren't allowed to be in the third lane from the right AT ALL unless they have to be. They are given the leeway to move LEFT when they have to. They aren't given leeway to keep left at all. It would be chickenshit, but CHP could very easily hang out after some of those facilities that you mentioned and ticket trucks for being too far to the left after the merge completes. Trucks are just not allowed in the third lane from the right unless specifically permitted or because they are preparing to do something that requires them to be there (like a left exit, an interchange, a weirdly located ramp, etc).

[Bickendan]

What isn't common sense is having split limits in place for different classes or functions of vehicles.

I am sorry, but I don't agree.

You seem to be from the east, but I am sure that you have been around.

Have you ever driven a light pickup truck on the undivided two-lane portions of US-95 in rural western Nevada? Have you almost been blown off the road when a triple going "just a bit" a bit above the 70MPH speed limit drove by you in the other direction in a decent wind? I have and it isn't fun.

If it were possible, ideally, trucks would have their own roads. What we have in California is, in so far as practical, segregation of trucks and trailers from the more manueverable vehicles. They basically have to stay in the right lane and they are limited to 55MPH. Trucks can't stop on a dime. They often can't stop on a football field. Yes, almost all of the people who dirve them are professionals and they have good skills, but they can't repeal the laws of physics. With a full load, they also often can't get up to speed on the same day. ... and neither they nor the car drivers would want them to.

Speeds that are safe for a VW Rabbit pickup at 600 kg (or even a Ford Exterminator at 4T), just aren't safe for a vehicle that fully loaded will sink a battleship. ... and since we can't afford to build them their own roads and it is our custom to exit a roadway on the right, it has to be possible for a car to find its way into the right lane in order to exit. It is a lot easier and safer for a car to slow down to 55MPH to exit than to insist that a truck speed up to 80MPH.

There are several places in California where we have speed limtis that differ by 30 MPH. On the LA side down slope of the Grapevine, there is a place where the differential is 65/35MPH . This is to REDUCE problems. There may be a 70/35MPH split somewhere on I-15 or I-40.

It's not differential SPEED LIMITS that cause problems. It differential SPEEDS by vehicles sharing the same lanes.

Speaking of the Grapevine downslope's speed differentials, the Syskiyou's downslope in Oregon is even more impressive: 55/18 between cars and trucks between 75-80k pounds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0633815,-122.6035622,3a,66.8y,64.26h,93.51t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seH6gXhMED9_UjQ76dmts-w!2e0

[Brandon]

Speaking of the Grapevine downslope's speed differentials, the Syskiyou's downslope in Oregon is even more impressive: 55/18 between cars and trucks between 75-80k pounds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0633815,-122.6035622,3a,66.8y,64.26h,93.51t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seH6gXhMED9_UjQ76dmts-w!2e0

Careful now, the OP is from California, so therefore, his state is always more impressive (even if you show it not to be).

[michravera]

Speaking of the Grapevine downslope's speed differentials, the Syskiyou's downslope in Oregon is even more impressive: 55/18 between cars and trucks between 75-80k pounds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0633815,-122.6035622,3a,66.8y,64.26h,93.51t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seH6gXhMED9_UjQ76dmts-w!2e0

Careful now, the OP is from California, so therefore, his state is always more impressive (even if you show it not to be).

It is really hard to impress a Californian. I actually *LIKE* the fact that it looks like our neighbor to the north seems to have set speed limits for trucks (in this instance anyway) based upon engineering factors such as the steepness of the grade and the weight of the vehicle. Now, if the legislature in Oregon would just set reasonable speed limits on more of the roads for more of the vehicles and Oregonians would actually drive them. Oregon had a 75MPH speed limit before 1974. They still haven't gone much past 65 since. And it annoyed me that many Oregoninans wouldn't even drive the 65MPH limit when I was there last.

[doorknob60]

Speaking of the Grapevine downslope's speed differentials, the Syskiyou's downslope in Oregon is even more impressive: 55/18 between cars and trucks between 75-80k pounds.
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0633815,-122.6035622,3a,66.8y,64.26h,93.51t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1seH6gXhMED9_UjQ76dmts-w!2e0

Careful now, the OP is from California, so therefore, his state is always more impressive (even if you show it not to be).

It is really hard to impress a Californian. I actually *LIKE* the fact that it looks like our neighbor to the north seems to have set speed limits for trucks (in this instance anyway) based upon engineering factors such as the steepness of the grade and the weight of the vehicle. Now, if the legislature in Oregon would just set reasonable speed limits on more of the roads for more of the vehicles and Oregonians would actually drive them. Oregon had a 75MPH speed limit before 1974. They still haven't gone much past 65 since. And it annoyed me that many Oregoninans wouldn't even drive the 65MPH limit when I was there last.

While I do generally agree with the need for higher speed limits in Oregon, I should mention that Oregon has a higher maximum speed limit than California. 70 cars/65 trucks on I-84 and US-95. 70/55 is the max in CA. Western Oregon (as well as some cross-Cascade routes) is the real problem now.

[don1991]

[quoting] -

"Question for you: As I notice more and more trucks in the number two lane on freeways, I have a question about enforcement of lane restrictions.  Many times a freeway with four mixed flow lanes in one direction will reduce to three as it traverses a freeway-to-freeway interchange, i.e., the number four lane turns into an exit lane for the other freeway.

When this happens, in many instances trucks will move from the number 3 lane to the number 2 lane.  When the freeway passes the other freeway, it will pick up a mixed flow lane again.  Often times trucks linger in the number 2 lane long after the number 4 lane has reappeared."

---

I was wondering how many other people noticed this.  The trucks in California have gotten more bold about this.  I was even wondering if they had some kind of (wink-wink) allowance from the CHP to linger for a certain period.  If they did have the nerve to do this (move to Lane # 2 out of 3 passing through an interchange), they used to move right away.  Now they linger at least a mile or so.

Case in point:  I-5 NB - 3 lanes pass through the I-605 IC.  Trucks will dash to the #2 lane and  stay there often until Rosemead Blvd.

Trucks in general have gotten much ruder about this.  On a freeway with 4 in each direction, they will often be solidly lined up in the #3 lane even if they are moving slow.  Other trucks have to pass in the #4 lane.  Occasionally a truck in the #3 lane thinks they have the right to pass in the #2 lane.

Cajon Pass has gotten bad on this.  Often 5 lanes with a requirement of "Trucks Right Lane only".  I can understand some trucks using the #4 to pass the super slow trucks in the #5.  But now an increasing number of trucks try to pass a slow trucker in the #4 lane, which means you have 3 solid lanes that are rolling roadblocks going 25 MPH or less.  Leaving all cars that want to do more than crawl up the hill forced to use the remaining 2 lanes.

It completely defeated the purpose of building the truck climbing lanes in the Cajon Pass if the trucks are still going  to block all but 2 lanes.

[Rant over]

[theroadwayone]

I've been on the Express Lanes on the 15; trailers are no-gos, as are semis, or anything with 3 or more axles (buses and RVs excluded.)