Cities with a shitty freeway setup

Started by ColossalBlocks, May 19, 2017, 03:47:42 PM

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MikeTheActuary

Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2017, 11:05:06 PM


Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 19, 2017, 09:36:40 PM
Hartford

Substandard interchange between the two primary interstates

My word, you must have forgotten what it was like before the flyover!  I remember having to wait in that horrendous backup to go from I-84 EB to I-91 NB (IIRC), where you had to take surface streets!

Because of the improvements, Hartford's system doesn't seem that bad to me.


I live near Bradley.  My local office location is in Farmington, near the Bristol line.

Mercifully, I got telecommuting privileges.

The downtown situation is indeed somewhat better than it used to be, in much the same way that the sixth layer of hell is somewhat better than the seventh.

In fairness, I guess it's not so much the suckage of the freeway system as it is the limitations of the road network in general.

Considering the decentralized nature of the metro area, the age of many of the communities involved, and topography, some of those limitations aren't too surprising.  But when you compare Hartford to more-recently developed metro areas, there is a distinct lack of choice when plotting itineraries within the Hartford metro as compared to newer metros.


The Nature Boy

Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.

Other than tunneling across Midtown, there really aren't any options for any east-west highway because of density issues.

silverback1065

Pittsburgh's freeways are garbage 376 over the Monongahela river is just fucked up, along with most of the bizarre interchanges along the route

SSOWorld

San Francisco city proper has its limits.  Given population density and parkland have cut off virtually every path to the Golden Gate Bridge, the only ways are on 19th Ave/Park-Presidio (SR 1) and Van Ness Ave/Lombard/Doyle Dr (US-101).  The freeways themselves are chock full of traffic everywhere you turn because of the single path.
Scott O.

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Raise your what?

Wisconsin - out-multiplexing your state since 1918.

triplemultiplex

Milwaukee only really seems to be missing an e-w freeway in the northern part of the city.  Everything else is a fixable design/capacity issue as far as I'm concerned.

St. Louis is shitty because they didn't put in enough bridges over the Mississippi back in the day.

Indy is missing a 'spoke' inside its beltline; that's kind of shitty. Cincy is missing one, too, though it's less glaring.

"That's just like... your opinion, man."

english si

Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on May 19, 2017, 04:50:25 PMLondon, UK.
Outside of South Asia and Sub-saharan Africa, is there a sparser freeway network in an urban area with more than 2 million? And London has over 10 million!

Buffaboy

With all of these examples, I guess I can throw Buffalo in even though it's a dying city with a decent road network.

50-60 years ago in its heydey, they should've built the Lancaster Expressway from where I-190 joins I-90. This would solve some traffic issues and shorten the drive from the eastern suburbs.

They should've finished the outer beltway they started as well. Today it exists in the form of the Milestrip and Lasalle Expressways, and I doubt either will (or can) be extended anytime soon.
What's not to like about highways and bridges, intersections and interchanges, rails and planes?

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MisterSG1

Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.

Well you can blame your friend Jane Jacobs for that.

sparker

Quote from: Tarkus on May 20, 2017, 06:40:35 AM
Portland, Oregon, a million times over.  The whole road grid for the metro area is, in and of itself, terrible.  The freeways were largely crap already, but all the development that's gotten thrown in during just the past three years has pushed all the road infrastructure past its breaking point.  The local politicians don't realize and/or don't care that their solutions to the "housing crisis" that they created (largely via corporate welfare for Intel, Nike, and developers; Metro's mere existence; and general self-aggrandization) is going to cause a massive infrastructure crisis, that they don't have the intelligence or money to solve.


  • The I-405/US-26 interchange (where the Vista Ridge Tunnel comes in) is backed up at just about any time of day.  The ramps to get on to I-405 from US-26 are just a single lane, really short, and dump out into a weaving situation.  I-405 itself is a mere two to three lanes per direction for most of its length.
  • OR-217, the poster child for substandard design, and the only north-south freeway that really serves Washington County--where Nike HQ is located, and Intel has four campuses.  It's two lanes per direction for most of its length, has severe weaving issues, and its interchange with I-5 consists of a badly-built flyover ramp, and two signalized intersections.
  • I-5 through the Rose Quarter--right through the area with the Moda Center, and between I-84 and the northern terminus of I-405--is largely only two lanes per direction, also with weaving galore. (Sensing a theme here?)
  • Left exits and general bizarre design everywhere--the fast lanes on I-84 westbound coming into the metro area dump onto I-205 northbound, headed toward the airport, which usually causes those fast lanes to suddenly grind to a halt.  Additionally, the exit off I-5 southbound onto I-405 northbound at the south end of the Marquam Bridge also is a big ol' left exit.  It's often used by people coming from I-84, trying to get to US-26 and the west side, meaning . . . you guessed it . . . heavy-duty weaving.
  • There's also the fact that I-5, despite crossing under the Ross Island Bridge (which carries US-26 over to the east side, where it become Powell Blvd) has no direct access.  Instead, there's the Ross Island Maze.
  • Aside from very short stretches and auxiliary lanes for exits/entrances, there are very few spots that exceed three lanes per direction, all in a metro area of over 3 million.
  • The most recent limited access roadway built--the Sunrise Corridor (part of OR-224)--took over 30 years from planning to completion.  It's two miles in length, two lanes per direction, and only has a 50mph speed limit at the highest (there's a surprisingly long 35mph zone near the OR-212 intersection).  Its termini are, of course, signalized intersections.
  • If we start discussing surface streets, there are very few out there with more than two lanes per direction for any appreciable length, so there's very little that the surface streets can absorb to help relieve the crappy freeways

When both PDX Metro government, the city planning agency, and much of ODOT, including the district encompassing Metro, are dominated by anti-car/anti-mobility officials and advisors, capacity increases on regional freeways (and even surface facilities) are very hard to come by.  The prevailing attitude is "starve the beast" -- regardless of the ancillary effects on commerce and commuting.  Like most metro areas, greater Portland has grown their public-transit capabilities, but the traffic issues persist pretty much unabated.  The area continues to grow; the level of growth has outstripped the aggregate ridership of public transit -- so one can assume that more folks moving to the area are bringing their cars & trucks with them and decidedly not "checking them at the door", so to speak.  Despite all efforts to the contrary, I'd venture a guess that a good 90-95% of the region remains dependent upon automotive traffic to sustain economic viability.  Even with stalled capacity increases, people keep on coming -- and bringing their own preferences with them.  There may be a few starry-eyed millennials among them with little ambition beyond living in a loft over a Starbuck's -- but they're certainly not anywhere near a working plurality, much less a majority -- even in PDX!  The freeway system may be a congested mess well on the way to FUBAR status -- but people will continue to slog through the jams anyway.       

dzlsabe

#34
Quote from: english si on May 20, 2017, 06:00:33 PM
Quote from: CNGL-Leudimin on May 19, 2017, 04:50:25 PMLondon, UK.
Outside of South Asia and Sub-saharan Africa, is there a sparser freeway network in an urban area with more than 2 million? And London has over 10 million!

I dunno. London and Chicago roughly the same area and pop/density. London roads move decently (or theyre workin on em), Chicago pretty much a mess most days. Airports? Ask again later. Freight rail and seaport? Not sure. Commuter trains similar? Kinda. Old London electrics seem like they do 100 mph as they pass stations. HSR (or airport rail) connections, not close. CTA and Tube? One is a tenth of the other. Bus systems? Both pretty darn good. Just  :ded:
ILs mantra..the beatings will continue until the morale improves but Expect Delays is good too. Seems some are happy that Chicago/land remains miserable. Status quo is often asinine...Always feel free to use a dictionary as I tend to offend younger or more sensitive viewers. Thanx Pythagoras. :rofl:

Henry

Agreed with Chicago, but what about Baltimore and Atlanta? The former is listed because of the fact that I-70 and I-83 were never built all the way to I-95, and I-170 was never built beyond the small stub west of downtown; the latter because of the many freeways (I-420, I-485 and I-675) that might've helped ease the traffic flow on I-20 and the I-75/I-85 Downtown Connector.
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kkt

Seattle.  Just one N-S freeway within Seattle, and it narrows down to 2 lanes each way in the middle of downtown and features frequent left entrances/exits with heavy weave movements.

gp248


I-90

Quote from: triplemultiplex on May 20, 2017, 03:28:47 PM
Milwaukee only really seems to be missing an e-w freeway in the northern part of the city.  Everything else is a fixable design/capacity issue as far as I'm concerned.
Search up park east freeway

dgolub

Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 20, 2017, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.

Other than tunneling across Midtown, there really aren't any options for any east-west highway because of density issues.

Yes, that would be an excellent idea.  Or alternatively, convert a couple of the Midtown cross streets into one-way Jersey freeways with no exits.  They could even have bus lanes to provide a way to get across by bus without stopping for any traffic lights.

triplemultiplex

Quote from: I-90 on May 23, 2017, 08:11:01 AM
Quote from: triplemultiplex on May 20, 2017, 03:28:47 PM
Milwaukee only really seems to be missing an e-w freeway in the northern part of the city.  Everything else is a fixable design/capacity issue as far as I'm concerned.
Search up park east freeway

The Park East was a useless waste of space.  Good riddance.
The Park West Freeway would have been the one with some merit if it met up with the FdL Freeway.  But I don't think it would have been worth it to slash through so much neighborhood.
The one canceled MKE freeway I sometimes lament is the Bay Freeway; a once-proposed east-west freeway that would have linked I-43 and WI 145 between Capitol and Hampton.
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Roadgeekteen

Quote from: dgolub on May 23, 2017, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 20, 2017, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.

Other than tunneling across Midtown, there really aren't any options for any east-west highway because of density issues.

Yes, that would be an excellent idea.  Or alternatively, convert a couple of the Midtown cross streets into one-way Jersey freeways with no exits.  They could even have bus lanes to provide a way to get across by bus without stopping for any traffic lights.
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Pasadena, California, thanks to the gap in the 710.
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At what age do you tell a highway that it's been adopted?

JJBers

Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 20, 2017, 10:03:08 AM
Quote from: Rothman on May 19, 2017, 11:05:06 PM


Quote from: MikeTheActuary on May 19, 2017, 09:36:40 PM
Hartford

Substandard interchange between the two primary interstates

My word, you must have forgotten what it was like before the flyover!  I remember having to wait in that horrendous backup to go from I-84 EB to I-91 NB (IIRC), where you had to take surface streets!

Because of the improvements, Hartford's system doesn't seem that bad to me.


I live near Bradley.  My local office location is in Farmington, near the Bristol line.

Mercifully, I got telecommuting privileges.

The downtown situation is indeed somewhat better than it used to be, in much the same way that the sixth layer of hell is somewhat better than the seventh.

In fairness, I guess it's not so much the suckage of the freeway system as it is the limitations of the road network in general.

Considering the decentralized nature of the metro area, the age of many of the communities involved, and topography, some of those limitations aren't too surprising.  But when you compare Hartford to more-recently developed metro areas, there is a distinct lack of choice when plotting itineraries within the Hartford metro as compared to newer metros.
I do think they should expand the lanes in the interchange.
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D-Dey65

Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.
And NY 9A's not even limited-access until you get to Riverside Park. I would've mentioned New York City in general, but it's not hard to understand why you picked the primary borough of the city.

RobbieL2415

Bakersfield, CA.  Served directly really only by CAL 99, though CAL 58 helps out on the south side of the city.  It's a city of almost 350,000 people and is not served by an Interstate.

vdeane

I don't think Vancouver needs any more freeways in the city itself, but it does need better connectivity around the suburbs.  The SFPR isn't a freeway, and even if it was, it doesn't have freeway/freeway interchanges with BC 91 and TCH 1.  The southern suburbs have better connectivity to the US than they do to even the rest of the metro area.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jakeroot

Quote from: vdeane on May 27, 2017, 10:05:24 PM
I don't think Vancouver needs any more freeways in the city itself, but it does need better connectivity around the suburbs.  The SFPR isn't a freeway, and even if it was, it doesn't have freeway/freeway interchanges with BC 91 and TCH 1.  The southern suburbs have better connectivity to the US than they do to even the rest of the metro area.

The SFPR isn't a full-fledged, Ontario-style freeway. But it does its job well enough. The best you could do between the 91 and the SFPR would be a couple of trumpets, and the Parclo between the SFPR and Hwy 1 is free-flow in the most important direction (EB Hwy 17 to EB Hwy 1). Room for improvement? Definitely. But it's a hell of a lot better than its predecessor: trying to get through Langley and Surrey via surface streets.

Honestly, most of the traffic that I hit in Vancouver is in the city, not in the suburbs. The suburbs are actually pretty well connected. Most arterial roads have two lanes each direction, with excellent signalisation. The vast majority of Vancouver freeways interchanges are very well designed (except some like Hwy 1 & Dollarton Hwy, though the fix there is easy). I think upgrading the SFPR to full-freeway would be the only major thing I'd do (besides replacement of the Massey Tunnel and the Pattullo Bridge, though both are on the table already).

US 89

Salt Lake City area. There is no east-west freeway south of 201, which means that all the surface roads (especially 90th, 106th, 114th South) get bad congestion every rush hour. Both of the freeway projects, Bangerter and MVC, are north-south routes, which might help the congestion on the surface roads but will just make 201 and 80 even worse than they already are.

sbeaver44

Quote from: dgolub on May 23, 2017, 08:53:38 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on May 20, 2017, 10:21:24 AM
Quote from: dgolub on May 20, 2017, 09:08:18 AM
How about Manhattan?  Except for all the way up in Washington Heights, there are no east/west highways.  The only ways to get across the island are to either take the local streets or circumnavigate it on the FDR Drive and NY 9A.

Other than tunneling across Midtown, there really aren't any options for any east-west highway because of density issues.

Yes, that would be an excellent idea.  Or alternatively, convert a couple of the Midtown cross streets into one-way Jersey freeways with no exits.  They could even have bus lanes to provide a way to get across by bus without stopping for any traffic lights.
Venturing into Fictional Highway territory here, but I sure wish PA would use Jersey expressways more than the few exisiting ones (PA 61, US 11/15).  IMO it is much more pleasant to drive than traffic lights every 200 feet, even if it means I have to go 1/4 mile past my destination to make a turn and come back.

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