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Trumpets with twin parallel overpasses

Started by briantroutman, May 27, 2017, 12:55:06 PM

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ilpt4u



davewiecking

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 11, 2017, 06:34:55 PM
So the distinction is whether Mainline traffic exits via the loop ramp, or enters via the loop ramp?

I thought both were considered Trumpets? I could be mistaken
Yes, that's the distinction I was making, and they are indeed both Trumpets. I'm just curious if anyone else knows if there's a specific name for what I'm now calling "a leading loop trumpet" and a "trailing loop trumpet". (I'm trying to come up with an appropriate adjective for one of them that starts with "s" so I can call it a "strumpet".)

Reviewing some of the earlier posts, I see that some have posted about T's and Y's and called them "Trumpets", but that's NOT correct.

As to the other point earlier (the mainline having the 2 parallel bridge spans), I remembered reply 17 above where it was stated that (almost) all trumpets in Vermont have the freeway mainline bridged over the ramps so he didn't list them. It seemed to me that the OP did intend to make this distinction, even though it didn't get into the exact words of the post.

I submit that it's probably a lot harder to find the situation where both directions of a mainline freeway are bridged over the ramps/aux road on a SINGLE span. However, I'm not going to take this thread and flip it into the opposite of what was originally asked...

ilpt4u

Quote from: davewiecking on June 11, 2017, 08:47:29 PM
I submit that it's probably a lot harder to find the situation where both directions of a mainline freeway are bridged over the ramps/aux road on a SINGLE span. However, I'm not going to take this thread and flip it into the opposite of what was originally asked...
I already posted one, as an anti-example:

In Southern IN/Louisville area:

It appears InDOT took Multiple Overpasses for the Dual Carriageways of US-31 (Outside, almost like Freeway Local Lanes) and I-65 (Inside, almost like Freeway Express Lanes) over the 10th St Trumpet in Jeffersonville, and have since made it one really wide Overpass, carrying 2 lanes of US-31 South, 4 lanes of I-65 South, 4 Lanes of I-65 North, a Northbound slip ramp from US-31 to I-65, and 2 lanes of US-31 North.

I assume this reconfiguration was done as part of the Ohio River Bridges Project. The Google Maps Satellite view still shows the old configuration, but Street View shows the new

https://goo.gl/maps/7iywqYUE2dw

Theres quite a few lanes on that Overpass going over the Trumpet ramps! But it wasn't always one Overpass; it was recently rebuilt this way, probably as part of the OH River Bridges Projects in the Louisville area

ilpt4u

I find the I-89/I-189 Trumpet in Vermont to be pretty interesting, but it does not follow the guidelines of Parallel Overpasses

The loop ramp of the trumpet is I-89 North to I-189 West, and it overpasses I-89

The matching trumpet non-loop ramp from I-189 East to I-89 North, is an underpass of I-89.

So the parallel "passes" of the thru I-89, one is an Overpass and the other an Underpass

Also, this is a Trumpet with a Thru route, as I-189 transitions to surface street Kennedy Dr, but there are no Kennedy Dr to I-89 movements

https://goo.gl/maps/Qqh7AtRLgh72

But I do see what the response on Reply 17 now, and note that a quick look at Vermont, it is pretty typical to have Trumpets with the Mainline on Dual Overpasses over the Trumpet ramps

RG407

At the double trumpet interchange between Florida's Turnpike and I-4 in Orlando, the ramps to and from the Turnpike southbound had two bridges installed a few years ago, each with two lanes.  And I believe the ramps to and from I-4 westbound will be twinned as part of the overhaul of I-4.

ilpt4u

One from TN, I-65 and TN-396, south of Nashville

https://goo.gl/maps/m1iDAn8Jnt62

One from NJ, the NJ Turnpike/I-95 and I-195, Double Trumpet, but the Trumpet ramps over the Turnpike are on twin, parallel overpasses. The Trumpet over I-195 has a single overpass

https://goo.gl/maps/MnFPZxqx3572

ilpt4u

Vancouver, BC. Knight St and BC-91.

An interesting Trumpet, in a couple of ways. First, Knight Street is a thru road on both sides of the Interchange, but there are only Trumpet movements to/from all directions of 91 to/from Knight Street north of 91.

Also, Mainline BC-91 has the overpasses, and one over the Trumpet loop ramp and mainline Knight Street, and a separate 91 overpass for the longer ramp around the Loop, on the South side of 91. And since Knight Street is a thru street, the 91 East to Knight North ramp also overpasses mainline Knight Street

No movements from BC-91 to/from Knight Street south of 91 at all. Per Google, Knight Street is a Freeway north of 91, even tho south of 91 its only interchange is signalized at its southern terminus, not very far from this Trumpet

https://goo.gl/maps/YPUWmmVVQj22

Bickendan

Only trumpet in Oregon I can think of is OR 217 at US 26, and it doesnt qualify,  but it's an interesting one because of the through ramps on OR 217 to SW Barnes Rd and the opposing loop ramp from eb 26 to access the surface streets.

cl94

Quote from: briantroutman on May 27, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
^ Interesting geometry. Were plans for a longer freeway scuttled here, too?

In reference to NY 85, yes. That was supposed to end at I-687 with an intermediate interchange at NY 5. With 687 being canceled, 85 was never extended. There have been proposals to extend it to NY 5, but those have been stopped due to environmental reasons.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

ilpt4u

In MO, NW of Poplar Bluff

Northern US 67 and US 60 Interchange

https://goo.gl/maps/7ju9cdkYs6J2

Rothman

Quote from: cl94 on June 12, 2017, 08:39:01 PM
Quote from: briantroutman on May 27, 2017, 01:29:51 PM
^ Interesting geometry. Were plans for a longer freeway scuttled here, too?

In reference to NY 85, yes. That was supposed to end at I-687 with an intermediate interchange at NY 5. With 687 being canceled, 85 was never extended. There have been proposals to extend it to NY 5, but those have been stopped due to environmental reasons.
An old RPPM in Region 1 wanted to see the extension happen.

The environmental reasons don't have anything to do with air quality, but the fact that there is a brownfield between NY 85 and 5.

Funny thing is he didn't want to see it happen until the mess at Fuller Road and Washington Ave was fixed and that's actually happened now.

Of course, I haven't heard anyone mention it in a few years now.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jakeroot

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 12, 2017, 07:12:11 PM
Vancouver, BC. Knight St and BC-91.

An interesting Trumpet, in a couple of ways. First, Knight Street is a thru road on both sides of the Interchange, but there are only Trumpet movements to/from all directions of 91 to/from Knight Street north of 91.

Also, Mainline BC-91 has the overpasses, and one over the Trumpet loop ramp and mainline Knight Street, and a separate 91 overpass for the longer ramp around the Loop, on the South side of 91. And since Knight Street is a thru street, the 91 East to Knight North ramp also overpasses mainline Knight Street.

I believe those movements were discarded because of low expected use, so alternative ramps (in the form of half-diamonds) were provided elsewhere (to/from Number 6 Road, Shell Road and Westminster Highway).

That said, I'm not sure this junction fits the OP's criteria, since the trumpet ramps are below the 91. Even if Knight Street was out of the picture, the ramps would be at ground level.

ilpt4u

Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2017, 11:44:10 PM
That said, I'm not sure this junction fits the OP's criteria, since the trumpet ramps are below the 91. Even if Knight Street was out of the picture, the ramps would be at ground level.
Yup, its not a perfect fit for the OP's description, as it is parallel Underpasses, not parallel Overpasses for the Ramps (and thru Knight St). From another perspective, it does fit, as the "Loop" and "Elongated" trumpet ramps do NOT use the same Over/Underpass

I still find it to be pretty neat looking, especially for a Trumpet, not the least of which is not that many Trumpets with 2 Thru routes!

Vancouver is on the travel list, one day....gotta get that Passport first

jakeroot

#63
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 13, 2017, 12:04:34 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on June 12, 2017, 11:44:10 PM
That said, I'm not sure this junction fits the OP's criteria, since the trumpet ramps are below the 91. Even if Knight Street was out of the picture, the ramps would be at ground level.

Yup, its not a perfect fit for the OP's description, as it is parallel Underpasses, not parallel Overpasses for the Ramps (and thru Knight St). From another perspective, it does fit, as the "Loop" and "Elongated" trumpet ramps do NOT use the same Over/Underpass

I still find it to be pretty neat looking, especially for a Trumpet, not the least of which is not that many Trumpets with 2 Thru routes!

I could take it or leave it. I'll leave it up the OP. Seems like an edge case.

I do agree on the looks. BC tends to build rather cool looking interchanges that not only function well, but use very little land and look really cool too. Check out the Hwy 99/Hwy 17 interchange near Delta. Although it's missing a movement (a theme in Vancouver, if you haven't noticed), it's a very cool looking interchange. Lots of swooping ramps, with a couple loops to throw things off.

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 13, 2017, 12:04:34 AM
Vancouver is on the travel list, one day....gotta get that Passport first

The traffic can really get to you after a while, but it's a very cool city, from many perspectives: road geek, transit geek, urban-form geek, movie buff, etc. There's something here/there for everyone!

PHLBOS

GPS does NOT equal GOD

briantroutman

Quote from: jakeroot on June 13, 2017, 01:04:13 AM
Quote from: ilpt4u on June 13, 2017, 12:04:34 AM
Yup, its not a perfect fit for the OP's description, as it is parallel Underpasses, not parallel Overpasses

I could take it or leave it. I'll leave it up the OP. Seems like an edge case.

Right, it's not exactly what I was asking for, but I think a twin underpass is close enough to the spirit of what I wanted–and interesting in its own right. Perhaps more interesting still would be a trumpet where the ramps pass underneath the mainline in two separate and distinct underpasses that are truly parallel–whereas in the Vancouver example, the inner ramp is a straight line under BC 91 while the outer ramp is sort of an arc.

That said, a few earlier examples ilpt4u gave were trumpets where the ramps pass under the mainline and the through lanes were carried on twin overpasses–and that, to me, isn't so remarkable. Other than on very old freeways like the Pennsylvania Turnpike with very narrow rights-of-way (or urban freeways in tight corridors), it's common for carriageways to be carried on separate overpasses–through all kinds of interchanges, including trumpets.

Quote from: PHLBOS on June 13, 2017, 01:08:49 PM
I-195/MA 240 interchange in Fairhaven, MA

Another aborted cloverleaf, I assume. But with the MA 140 freeway just a few miles to the west, I don't understand what need there would have been for another north-south freeway–which I assume would have connected with MA 140 on the north end of New Bedford. Then again, it would be similar to the Ma 79/MA 24 setup in Fall River, a little further west.

PHLBOS

Quote from: briantroutman on June 13, 2017, 01:53:33 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on June 13, 2017, 01:08:49 PM
I-195/MA 240 interchange in Fairhaven, MA

Another aborted cloverleaf, I assume. But with the MA 140 freeway just a few miles to the west, I don't understand what need there would have been for another north-south freeway–which I assume would have connected with MA 140 on the north end of New Bedford. Then again, it would be similar to the Ma 79/MA 24 setup in Fall River, a little further west.
Based in the Wiki write-up, 240 was indeed planned to extend northward to Acushnet but the proposal died off sometime in the 1970s.  While it's logical to assume that 240's would-be northern terminus was indeed w/MA 140; there's no real mention regarding where exactly it would've connected.  Maybe at 140's Exit 6 (MA 18/Ashley Blvd.); but who knows.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

davewiecking

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 11, 2017, 09:33:13 PM
I find the I-89/I-189 Trumpet in Vermont to be pretty interesting, but it does not follow the guidelines of Parallel Overpasses

The loop ramp of the trumpet is I-89 North to I-189 West, and it overpasses I-89

The matching trumpet non-loop ramp from I-189 East to I-89 North, is an underpass of I-89.

So the parallel "passes" of the thru I-89, one is an Overpass and the other an Underpass

Also, this is a Trumpet with a Thru route, as I-189 transitions to surface street Kennedy Dr, but there are no Kennedy Dr to I-89 movements

https://goo.gl/maps/Qqh7AtRLgh72

But I do see what the response on Reply 17 now, and note that a quick look at Vermont, it is pretty typical to have Trumpets with the Mainline on Dual Overpasses over the Trumpet ramps

The I-89/I-189 trumpet, being on different levels, I guess is a "split trumpet". All the examples having the trumpet ramps beneath the mainline (such as the BC-91 example) would be "submerged trumpets". Both are "strumpets". Perhaps with spit valves (the extra thru road)??

Clearly, I woke up too early this morning...

ilpt4u

#68
I-76 (Western) and I-80, in Nebraska near the Colorado state line

https://goo.gl/maps/fdnuu3UBn1N2

I-76 (Eastern) and I-80 also meet at a Trumpet -- actually, a Double Trumpet, due to the OH Turnpike, but that Double Trumpet complex is all Single Overpasses, best I can tell

I-35 and US 59, outside Ottawa, KS

https://goo.gl/maps/1ZRByo4iakK2

US 400 and KS-96 near I-35/KS Turnpike, Wichita, KS

https://goo.gl/maps/dfAhr8y2Vbv

There is a lot going on here, with another (almost double) trumpet in the picture for I-35/Kansas Turnpike to access KS-96, with the I-35 ramps normal Trumpet, and the ramp complex at KS-96 is almost a trumpet, but not quite due to KS-96 extending south to US 400, to meet at the Dual Overpass Trumpet

I-135 and KS-96, Wichita

https://goo.gl/maps/cwFcZg13x8m

The other end of KS-96 in Wichita, there is another Dual Overpass Trumpet, in an interesting configuration, due to a nearby railroad line, as well as a squished Folded Diamond interchange for Hydraulic Ave/29th St within the Southern end of the Trumpet ramp of I-135 North to KS-96. Also due to the railroad, that I-135 North to KS-96 is a longer ramp so it can stay to the southeast of the railroad, never needing to cross it, despite all other movements of the Interchange being northwest of the railroad

ilpt4u

The more I keep finding these, the less rare I think they are... (That is probably a "Captain Obvious" type statement, granted)

I-40 and Business Loop 40, west of El Reno, OK

https://goo.gl/maps/vZQF63wyoCP2

US 89

Quote from: ilpt4u on June 14, 2017, 11:55:41 PM
The more I keep finding these, the less rare I think they are... (That is probably a "Captain Obvious" type statement, granted)

I-40 and Business Loop 40, west of El Reno, OK

https://goo.gl/maps/vZQF63wyoCP2

The opposite happened to me. When I first saw this thread, I thought there were going to be hundreds of examples. They seem to be rarer than I originally thought they were.

That said, there is another one in UT that I initially forgot: I-15 and I-84 in Tremonton. That particular one is interesting in that the 15 southbound on ramp is so wide and sweeping that there are actually agricultural fields inside the interchange, between 15 south and 84 east.



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