Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[plain]

Guess Georgia likes to use the doghouse for the flashing yellow.  Saw this on a video about the I-85 bridge collapse.  Jump to the 1m 30s mark to see it.

https://youtu.be/w8t7OrIJG48?t=1m30s

So there's no green arrow in that doghouse at all? What about a protected turn?

[cl94]

A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.

[freebrickproductions]

Guess Georgia likes to use the doghouse for the flashing yellow.  Saw this on a video about the I-85 bridge collapse.  Jump to the 1m 30s mark to see it.

https://youtu.be/w8t7OrIJG48?t=1m30s

So there's no green arrow in that doghouse at all? What about a protected turn?

There is. The green arrow uses a bimodal LED so it can also do a flashing yellow indication.

[Mdcastle]

A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.

Are protected only phases even allowed when a dedicated left turn lane is not provided? That's the situation here (3 through lanes, no left turn lane). I've never encountered one. With no protected only phase, no need for a red arrow and you need one signal head to cover both turning and through movements for a lane.

[plain]

A protected turn might not be necessary. I have seen a ton of FYAs without a protected phase.

Are protected only phases even allowed when a dedicated left turn lane is not provided? That's the situation here (3 through lanes, no left turn lane). I've never encountered one. With no protected only phase, no need for a red arrow and you need one signal head to cover both turning and through movements for a lane.

Never seen a red arrow at a setup like that but I have seen a few cases where there's left turn protection when the left lane is an option lane but the protection isn't provided right away. When the signals for that direction turns green, it's only balls. People wanting to turn left has to yield to oncoming traffic first before the green arrow eventually appears. The signal for this option lane is usually 4 bulbs (3 balls + green arrow) or sometimes a doghouse. All signals for traffic originating from that direction (through and turning) then turns to yellow to red.

[cl94]

Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected. If there's no dedicated turn lane, it can be PPLT. Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

[plain]

Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected. If there's no dedicated turn lane, it can be PPLT. Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.

[jakeroot]

Depends on what you mean by "option lane". If there's a dedicated turn lane AND an option lane, there has to be split phasing if the left is protected.

Well, you could go permissive following the protected phase (disregarding DOTs that don't permit this). The only time split phasing is absolutely necessary is when the double lefts overlap.

[jakeroot]

Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.

There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.

[JMAN_WiS&S]

Technically there is a brief period with the FYA doghouse where the option lane faces a red left turn arrow, however I've seen this issue fixed in other installs by using a doghouse for both the overhead and far left display. The city should have used the 5 stack version of the FYA doghouse for the far left signals at this intersection. https://youtu.be/bPGf-sIBgB0?list=PLdFtjnurhUkBbGxF8LkRNlMu8wpil7IA8

[Mdcastle]

The original rationale for doing that was a for a split phase / permissive only setup where the left lane was a left turn only lanes and the right lane was option lane (with a free right next to that) The four-section head applied to the left lane and the doghouse to the right lane. Wisconsin seems to have copypasted that configuration for a 4-lane undivided road; in that situation Mn/DOT will use a second doghouse rather than a four-section.

[Tonytone]

I wish that when nightime hits around 12am certain traffic signals would just blink as a stop sign, less traffic means no need to mess up the flow of a road for one person turning.

[jakeroot]

I wish that when nightime hits around 12am certain traffic signals would just blink as a stop sign, less traffic means no need to mess up the flow of a road for one person turning.

Those seem to be slowly going by the wayside, with the advent of sensor-based traffic signals.

Federal Way, WA gets around this issue by having a minimum green time for arterial roads. After the side road has finished its phase, the arterial gets a crosswalk signal automatically. From the perspective of a driver, it's nice to know that you don't have to be right on the ass of the car in front of you to prevent the signal from switching directions again, in the event that another car arrives from the side street.

[jakeroot]

Protected-only turns are forbidden with an option lane. For example, a setup like this is NOT allowed by the 2009 MUTCD, but it was allowed under New York's MUTCD before it adopted the national.

That's a very interesting setup in your example, never seen that before. And no, I was referring to a set up where there is no dedicated turn lane and the left lane is an option lane.

There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.

Found another one of these bloody things in Washington, with what appears to be one of the strangest signal setups in history. Far right is straight only and has a permanent green up arrow. Middle lane is an option left/straight, with a standard RYG orb signal. Left lane is left only and features an RYG arrow signal. When the signal is green for all movements, the middle lane displays a green ball (implying yield), but the left lane displays a green arrow, implying protected. Of course, the movement is protected, but WSDOT could have avoided the setup altogether by eliminating the option lane, or by using permissive phasing.

Hwy 101 at Hwy 105, near Aberdeen, WA

[MNHighwayMan]

How common are three-section FYA setups? I had never seen one until late last year when the Iowa DOT signalized an intersection on IA-415 (SW State St) and SW White Birch Dr/SW Tradition Dr in Ankeny.



As the picture shows, they're for the left turn lanes on IA-415's cross-streets, and due to the lack of a green arrow, are permissive only. Are these going to be appearing in more and more places where a left-turn lane is needed but not a protected left phase? Or is that not a common configuration?

[jakeroot]

How common are three-section FYA setups? I had never seen one until late last year when the Iowa DOT signalized an intersection on IA-415 (SW State St) and SW White Birch Dr/SW Tradition Dr in Ankeny.

As the picture shows, they're for the left turn lanes on IA-415's cross-streets, and due to the lack of a green arrow, are permissive only. Are these going to be appearing in more and more places where a left-turn lane is needed but not a protected left phase? Or is that not a common configuration?

They've been steadily popping up across the US for the last several years. There was a thread just recently that goes over three-head FYAs. See it here.

Are you certain that the signal is permissive-only? Many of the three head signals have a bi-modal green/yellow bottom lens.

[MNHighwayMan]

Yes. It is

RA
YA
FYA

No green at all in there, or if there is, I have never seen it used. The amount of traffic that side street generates doesn't necessitate it, IMO. Furthermore, it doesn't look to me like one of those bimodal lenses, which are fairly common in the Des Moines area, used on what would've once traditionally been a doghouse/five section ball and arrows combination. (They're four-section heads with the standard RYG balls and then a combination green/yellow left arrow on the bottom.)

[plain]

There's another one in Washington state. East Broadway at I-90 (left turn onto the WB onramp). The #1 lane is left only. #2 is left or straight. #3 and #4 are straight only. It's a really stupid setup that could easily be fixed by changing the left turn phasing to permissive.

I can see exactly why that setup is the way it is with that other intersection (and left turn lane) right behind it.


But this.....

Found another one of these bloody things in Washington, with what appears to be one of the strangest signal setups in history. Far right is straight only and has a permanent green up arrow. Middle lane is an option left/straight, with a standard RYG orb signal. Left lane is left only and features an RYG arrow signal. When the signal is green for all movements, the middle lane displays a green ball (implying yield), but the left lane displays a green arrow, implying protected. Of course, the movement is protected, but WSDOT could have avoided the setup altogether by eliminating the option lane, or by using permissive phasing.

Hwy 101 at Hwy 105, near Aberdeen, WA

THIS has got to be the dumbest shit ever. And I hope the traffic coming from that side road isn't allowed to turn left... don't look like it though

[Mdcastle]

Three section permissive-only flashing yellow arrows were allowed briefly in Minnesota, then approval was yanked before any of them were actually installed. Outside Minneapolis and St. Paul which have their own standards, the only installations allowed for left turn lanes generally are four section heads over dedicated turn lanes and the FYA doghouse for option lanes. A three section head is only permitted for protected only movements and then only if some geometric constraint (like overlapping turn lanes or a site distance problem) means it can absolutely never be allowed to operate a permissive phase.

[MNHighwayMan]

Any idea why it was yanked? It seems to me to be a valid solution for low-volume roads that have short cycles.

[Mdcastle]

1) Creating constancy for motorists to minimize the number of types of left turn signal configurations they will encounter.

2) They want the ability to make phasing changes by simply reprogramming the signal rather than sending out a bucket truck and changing the heads and stringing new wires.

[US-175]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

[jakeroot]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

[cl94]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

Several weeks ago, Fort Worth officials installed permissive flashing yellow lights for the left-turn lanes...

They need to leave it up for more than a few weeks. At least a year.

Completely agree. Unless drivers there are just stupid, they'll adjust in a few months. FYAs haven't been in heavy usage here for much more than a year and people haven't thought twice for several months. Granted, I'm not too far from a place (western Massachusetts) that has replaced almost all of its left-turn doghouses with FYAs, but still.

[roadfro]

http://www.star-telegram.com/news/local/community/fort-worth/article147603824.html

Just saw this posted on Facebook.  An intersection in north Fort Worth has been confusing drivers to the point that the city is taking the FYA signage off and re-signaling it for green arrows instead.  Anybody else seeing blowback like this?

The article shows an image and video depicting a double left turn with the FYA, which doesn't appear to have been there previously. Looking at Google Maps/Street View, I didn't see the dual left turns in either (what could be dual lefts appearing to have been marked as a buffer and future turn lane). There are also wider medians at the intersection that are at least a lane's width wide.

If all that is the case, then removing FYA might be the right call for that intersection. I would have concerns with a dual FYA when you also have a wide median. For this intersection, it appears a driver in the outside left turn lane might have to be looking over a distance of 4-5 lanes left to see gaps in the two lanes of opposing through traffic. I would imagine the outside left turn lane could have sight distance issues in seeing gaps when there are multiple cars queued in the opposing turn lanes. That seems like it could be a contributing factor to the crash issues.