Wisconsin overspending on roundabouts?

[triplemultiplex]

That same table, however, shows that any increase is almost all in minor 'fender-bender' type collisions.  The De Pere one is an outlier for sure, but I'm tempted to say, "so what?".  One doesn't draw systemic conclusions from outliers.
The accident reduction is less than 'predicted' because it covers the period of driver acclimation that occurs after new roundabouts go in.  The WisDOT study shows collisions over a very small period before and after roundabout construction so that means a limited sample size that is heavily influenced by a spike in minor collisions as drivers get used to a new roundabout.  They don't match the 76% 'target' in the nationwide study because that study covers a time period 3 times as long.

So 500 roundabouts in Wisconsin still isn't enough? What is then?

501

[GeekJedi]

The point is not all roundabouts are created equal and not all roundabouts will lead to a reduction in injury crashes.  Anyone who leads you to believe they will is being disingenuous.

I don't think anyone is trying to lead anyone to believe that *all* roundabouts will lead to a reduction of injury crashes. There are no absolutes in anything. However, *most* of the time there is a reduction, and that's what matters.

[tradephoric]

The De Pere one is an outlier for sure, but I'm tempted to say, "so what?".  One doesn't draw systemic conclusions from outliers.

The average crash rate of a signalized intersection is roughly 0.8 MEV.  Agencies are often required to undergo safety audits for signalized intersection that have a crash rate over 2.0 MEV.  Now take a look at the crash rates of these complex 3x2 and 2x2 multi-lane roundabouts.  They are off the charts!  The roundabouts highlighted in yellow have had circulating lanes removed due to their abysmal crash rates. 



This is only looking at total crashes but any crash has the potential to lead to an injury.  When you have crash rates 4X higher than a typical signalized intersection there is no guarantee that you will see a reduction in injury crashes.  Some will argue that people have to get use to roundabouts and the crash rate will go down.  But there are roundabouts that have been around for over a decade that are experiencing over 100 crashes a year.  At some point this driver unfamiliarity argument is ineffective at explaining away the high crash rates.

[jakeroot]

Where the hell is Bellingham, Oregon?

[tradephoric]

Where the hell is Bellingham, Oregon?

Touche Jake.  Your comment was effective at discrediting the accuracy of the entire chart.  We can breath a sigh of relieve that agencies can keep designing and constructing these complex crash prone roundabouts now.

[jakeroot]

Where the hell is Bellingham, Oregon?

Touche Jake.  Your comment was effective at discrediting the accuracy of the entire chart.  We can breath a sigh of relieve that agencies can keep designing and constructing these complex crash prone roundabouts now.

Just to make it plain, while I have not always seen eye-to-eye with you on roundabouts, I have no reason to believe your chart is incorrect. I'm not trying to discredit anything. I was simply pointing out a discrepancy.

The Steptoe Roundabout (#6) is being remodeled by WSDOT: http://goo.gl/kWNe0i

[Alps]

Where the hell is Bethleham, New York?

[jakeroot]

Where the hell is Bethleham, New York?

[tradephoric]

The Steptoe Roundabout (#6) is being remodeled by WSDOT: http://goo.gl/kWNe0i

Thanks for the info Jake.  Interestingly a circulating lane inside the roundabout is being removed.  Crews are switching from a double lane to a single lane entrance to the roundabout along Columbia Park Trail.
 
There are also plans to remove a circulating lane at the Venice Ave Roundabout (#7).  This roundabout has been the top intersection for wrecks in Sarasota and Manatee Counties since it's construction in 2008:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5g7zzBC6Bw

In addition, the Homer Watson roundabout in Kitchener (#9) had a circulating lane on the SB approach striped out shortly after being constructed.  This should have been highlighted yellow as well.

[7/8]

In addition, the Homer Watson roundabout in Kitchener (#9) had a circulating lane on the SB approach striped out shortly after being constructed.  This should have been highlighted yellow as well.

Yep, the third lane has been gone for at least a few years now. Damn, it's the 9th worst roundabout in the US and Canada? I didn't realize it was that bad

[dvferyance]

Whether they are safer or not is really a separate topic. The fact is the transportation fund is broke as I read an article in today's Journal Sentinel. And changes in spending are going to have to be made. Sure I admit there are some roundabouts they build that were good and they did a nice job with but there is such a thing is overdoing. Roundabouts are expensive to build that's the reality and if the money isn't there it may be necessary to put a hold on them.

[GeekJedi]

Whether they are safer or not is really a separate topic.

No, it's not. The reason they are being built is because they're safer. Guess what? It's expensive to put seatbelts in cars, but we do it anyway because it's safer.

Want to fix the problem with our road spending? Don't approve projects that the legislature isn't willing to fund. Don't assume the money will "magically" appear.

Roundabouts are not the problem here.

[kphoger]

Whether they are safer or not is really a separate topic.

No, it's not.

Yes, it is.  Is the price tag on Wisconsin's roundabouts higher than it should be?  Is Wisconsin converting to roundabouts intersections that were functioning just fine?  Does Wisconsin need to be spending its money on more pressing needs instead?  These are the questions that fit the topic.  You might love roundabouts or hate roundabouts, but there are is another thread for discussing crash-prone modern roundabouts.

[GeekJedi]

Yes, it is.  Is the price tag on Wisconsin's roundabouts higher than it should be?  Is Wisconsin converting to roundabouts intersections that were functioning just fine?  Does Wisconsin need to be spending its money on more pressing needs instead?  These are the questions that fit the topic.  You might love roundabouts or hate roundabouts, but there are is another thread for discussing crash-prone modern roundabouts.

No, it's not.

Wisconsin does very thorough studies before installing roundabouts, and (in the case of putting one in that's *not* part of a larger project) will only do them in areas where there have been significant accidents. So no, they aren't converting intersections that were functioning "just fine", nor are these roundabouts happening at the expense of more pressing needs. Safety is *the* most pressing need, and Wisconsin only does roundabouts in areas where those numbers play out. They have not installed them for the sake of installing them. That's why it's not a different topic - they are entirely related to each other.

[dvferyance]

Yes, it is.  Is the price tag on Wisconsin's roundabouts higher than it should be?  Is Wisconsin converting to roundabouts intersections that were functioning just fine?  Does Wisconsin need to be spending its money on more pressing needs instead?  These are the questions that fit the topic.  You might love roundabouts or hate roundabouts, but there are is another thread for discussing crash-prone modern roundabouts.

No, it's not.

Wisconsin does very thorough studies before installing roundabouts, and (in the case of putting one in that's *not* part of a larger project) will only do them in areas where there have been significant accidents. So no, they aren't converting intersections that were functioning "just fine", nor are these roundabouts happening at the expense of more pressing needs. Safety is *the* most pressing need, and Wisconsin only does roundabouts in areas where those numbers play out. They have not installed them for the sake of installing them. That's why it's not a different topic - they are entirely related to each other.

Well they sure didn't do that when it come to the ones on Moorland that's for sure. Those intersections were just fine they way they were now it's mess. They weren't anywhere close to being roundabout suitable and it's only going to get worse.

[kphoger]

Yes, it is.  Is the price tag on Wisconsin's roundabouts higher than it should be?  Is Wisconsin converting to roundabouts intersections that were functioning just fine?  Does Wisconsin need to be spending its money on more pressing needs instead?  These are the questions that fit the topic.  You might love roundabouts or hate roundabouts, but there are is another thread for discussing crash-prone modern roundabouts.

No, it's not.

Wisconsin does very thorough studies before installing roundabouts, and (in the case of putting one in that's *not* part of a larger project) will only do them in areas where there have been significant accidents. So no, they aren't converting intersections that were functioning "just fine", nor are these roundabouts happening at the expense of more pressing needs. Safety is *the* most pressing need, and Wisconsin only does roundabouts in areas where those numbers play out. They have not installed them for the sake of installing them. That's why it's not a different topic - they are entirely related to each other.

Well they sure didn't do that when it come to the ones on Moorland that's for sure. Those intersections were just fine they way they were now it's mess. They weren't anywhere close to being roundabout suitable and it's only going to get worse.

They didn't do what, exactly?  Thorough studies?  I kind of doubt that.

[GeekJedi]

Those intersections were just fine they way they were now it's mess, in my opinion.

Fixed that for you.

[triplemultiplex]

Well they sure didn't do that when it come to the ones on Moorland that's for sure. Those intersections were just fine they way they were now it's mess. They weren't anywhere close to being roundabout suitable and it's only going to get worse.

Those ones at the I-43 ramp terminals?  Never gave me a problem.  But since we are judging roundabouts based on our anecdotal, biased experiences now, they must be working perfectly. :?

Or I'll be less shitty about it and ask what are the specific deficiencies you have observed at this particular location?  That's your neck of the woods and I take it you use them frequently.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of the area, I wager a guess that this roundabout pair is the only place you have to use them regularly.  So what are the problems you are encountering?  Backups? Lane discipline? Cars stopping when they should be yielding?  Vise versa?  Issues with semis?
Let's get into it.

[GeekJedi]

I'll make this even more simple...

Before:



After:



You can see (even with that random image) what the problem was with the old configuration. Based on the traffic on I-43, that wasn't even a peak traffic period. Go on Google Earth and check all the old images...there is always traffic stacked there. They added the roundabouts when they rebuilt the I-43 bridge and reconfigured the ramps. I can guarantee that the roundabouts didn't add significant cost to the entire project, yet improved traffic flow once the public got used to the roundabouts.

[dvferyance]

I'll make this even more simple...

Before:



After:



You can see (even with that random image) what the problem was with the old configuration. Based on the traffic on I-43, that wasn't even a peak traffic period. Go on Google Earth and check all the old images...there is always traffic stacked there. They added the roundabouts when they rebuilt the I-43 bridge and reconfigured the ramps. I can guarantee that the roundabouts didn't add significant cost to the entire project, yet improved traffic flow once the public got used to the roundabouts.

It's not just the cost it's the fact that accidents went way up and backups occur frequently during peak times. Either onto I-43 or at Moorland SB to Beloit. I attended the public hearing back in 2007 the overwhelming majority didn't want them. The DOT should have respected the wishes of the people of New Berlin and not done it. It was wrong to shove them down our throats against our will. The DOT even admitted themselves that 3 lane roundabouts are a bit too much and they are not going to do any more of them. But of course we are stuck with the one here.

[jakeroot]

It's not just the cost it's the fact that accidents went way up and backups occur frequently during peak times. Either onto I-43 or at Moorland SB to Beloit. I attended the public hearing back in 2007 the overwhelming majority didn't want them. The DOT should have respected the wishes of the people of New Berlin and not done it. It was wrong to shove them down our throats against our will. The DOT even admitted themselves that 3 lane roundabouts are a bit too much and they are not going to do any more of them. But of course we are stuck with the one here.

First of all, the public are not engineers. As important as public input is, its impact should be limited to small-scale stuff, not the layout of the ramps, etc. Of course, not everyone agrees with me on this; not even I would agree with me if large-scale ROW acquisition is involved.

Second, overwhelming data available at the time of construction supported roundabouts at the ramp terminals. I suspect that, if the interchange were rebuilt today, roundabouts would likely not be the first recommendation. But at the time, it made sense.

[GeekJedi]

I attended the public hearing back in 2007 the overwhelming majority didn't want them. The DOT should have respected the wishes of the people of New Berlin and not done it.

How many people were at the meeting? 25? 50? 100? The population of New Berlin is 40,000. So no, those weren't what "the wishes of the people of New Berlin" were. Those were the wishes of the people that were in the room.

How many times has someone come to a DOT meeting strictly to support something? I know as a fact that the number is much lower than those who show up to oppose. Basically, those meetings are to get feedback, not to place a final vote.

I'll go one higher than jakeroot - I still think roundabouts at that intersection would be the preferred alternative. Probably not three lanes, but it would likely still be roundabouts. Those intersections were awful in their previous configuration with traffic stacking and waiting all over the place - especially with the tight spacing with the Beloit Rd. intersection to the North, and Rock Run to the South.

[Revive 755]

Those ones at the I-43 ramp terminals?  Never gave me a problem.  But since we are judging roundabouts based on our anecdotal, biased experiences now, they must be working perfectly. :?

Or I'll be less shitty about it and ask what are the specific deficiencies you have observed at this particular location?  That's your neck of the woods and I take it you use them frequently.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of the area, I wager a guess that this roundabout pair is the only place you have to use them regularly.  So what are the problems you are encountering?  Backups? Lane discipline? Cars stopping when they should be yielding?  Vise versa?  Issues with semis?

Not my neck of the woods, nor do I go through that interchange that often, but I've sometimes found it hard to get gaps to enter the roundabouts from the I-43 ramps.

[GeekJedi]

Those ones at the I-43 ramp terminals?  Never gave me a problem.  But since we are judging roundabouts based on our anecdotal, biased experiences now, they must be working perfectly. :?

Or I'll be less shitty about it and ask what are the specific deficiencies you have observed at this particular location?  That's your neck of the woods and I take it you use them frequently.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on my knowledge of the area, I wager a guess that this roundabout pair is the only place you have to use them regularly.  So what are the problems you are encountering?  Backups? Lane discipline? Cars stopping when they should be yielding?  Vise versa?  Issues with semis?

Not my neck of the woods, nor do I go through that interchange that often, but I've sometimes found it hard to get gaps to enter the roundabouts from the I-43 ramps.

It can be, but typically it's less of a wait than a stoplight would be. (I drive through them at least twice a day, often more)

[The Ghostbuster]

Get used to the roundabouts. They're not going anywhere.