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PA-NJ-DE Delaware River Crossings

Started by BrianP, August 04, 2015, 10:43:56 AM

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BrianP

Starting a thread for bridges across the Delaware River.  Like the Hudson River thread.

Tolls Set to Double (for Some) on Tacony-Palmyra, Burlington-Bristol Bridges


SteveG1988

Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

Roadrunner75

Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 04, 2015, 10:55:07 AM
They are going to actually use it all to fund road improvements, redeck both bridges.
...and buy Bridge Expanders (as seen on TV) for the Bristol - just turn the crank and widen the road deck.  I like driving across that bridge but I'm surprised there aren't more head-on collisions.

SteveG1988

I think it is fair to expect an increase like this. 15 years is a long time to go without an increase. Inflation has probably hurt their ability to get work done as the cost of labor has gone up.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

noelbotevera

#4
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
I think it is fair to expect an increase like this. 15 years is a long time to go without an increase. Inflation has probably hurt their ability to get work done as the cost of labor has gone up.
Except, those are the cheapest crossings between Wilmington and New York City. Of course there is going to be traffic - how are they not profitable? The lowest crossings excluding the 3 is:
1. I-78 Toll Bridge - WB Only (Easton PA-Phillipsburg NJ) ($1)
2. I-95 JFK Highway Bridge (Hatem Bridge too) ($8)
3. all tie for NYC - G. W. Bridge, Outerbridge Crossing, Verrazano Narrows Bridge, etc. ($14)

Tolls is cheap, so basically a ton of traffic will use the bridge, but yet DRPA is not profitable...
and plus, the Turnpike bridge is cancer.

CROSSINGS I'M TALKING ABOUT
Burlington-Bristol Toll Bridge
Tacony-Palmyra Toll Bridge

ekt8750

DRJTBC has a few free bridges (over the Delaware no less) in their portfolio including the Bridge St Bridge in Trenton, Scudder Falls Bridge and the US 22 bridge in Easton and they also do just fine moneywise.

TravelingBethelite

Quote from: noelbotevera on August 05, 2015, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
I think it is fair to expect an increase like this. 15 years is a long time to go without an increase. Inflation has probably hurt their ability to get work done as the cost of labor has gone up.
Except, those are the cheapest crossings between Wilmington and New York City. Of course there is going to be traffic - how are they not profitable? The lowest crossings excluding the 3 is:
1. I-78 Toll Bridge - WB Only (Easton PA-Phillipsburg NJ) ($1)
2. I-95 JFK Highway Bridge (Hatem Bridge too) ($8)
3. all tie for NYC - G. W. Bridge, Outerbridge Crossing, Verrazano Narrows Bridge, etc. ($14)

Tolls is cheap, so basically a ton of traffic will use the bridge, but yet DRPA is not profitable...
and plus, the Turnpike bridge is cancer.

"A ton of traffic will use" what bridge? You're not being specific about what bridge you are speaking of.  :poke:
"Imprisoned by the freedom of the road!" - Ronnie Milsap
See my photos at: http://bit.ly/1Qi81ws

Now I decide where I go...

2018 Ford Fusion SE - proud new owner!

froggie

Despite the gloom and doom that Noel claims (due to his inexperience no doubt), I would expect that as long as the Tacony-Palmyra toll remains lower than the Betsy Ross toll, traffic will continue to use the Tacony-Palmyra with minimal change in traffic volumes.  The Burlington-Bristol is largely local traffic and doesn't have any easy alternatives either (detouring to the Turnpike crossing adds 14 miles).  As long as the commission is up-front with what they plan to do (as they apparently are), and if the bridges are in poor enough condition that drivers notice, I'd expect some sort of toll increase would be accepted.

jeffandnicole

I wouldn't be surprised if the $4 cash toll proposal becomes $3 in the final version.

If it's enacted as a $4 toll, daily commuters paying cash - especially those that use the Tacony - are going to be faced with a choice of using that bridge, which has congestion and frequent drawbridge openings, or just using the Betsy Ross, which is almost always free-flowing.  Commuters save a significant $3 today.  A $1 difference isn't as significant.

For EZ Pass customers, it'll still be a $2 difference: $3 on the Tacony vs. $5 on the Betsy Ross.  But with the return of the EZ Pass toll credit, frequent EZ Pass customers will be getting an $18 credit for using EZ Pass 18 times or more (or something close to that).  The actual cost would be around $4 for the Betsy Ross.  Again - just a dollar difference.

So, the Burlington County Bridge Commission is going to have to tread lightly here.  Increase the tolls too much - even if they're lower than the DRPA's tolls - and they're still in the position to lose customers, and that will potentially decrease the expected revenue.

noelbotevera

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 05, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the $4 cash toll proposal becomes $3 in the final version.

If it's enacted as a $4 toll, daily commuters paying cash - especially those that use the Tacony - are going to be faced with a choice of using that bridge, which has congestion and frequent drawbridge openings, or just using the Betsy Ross, which is almost always free-flowing.  Commuters save a significant $3 today.  A $1 difference isn't as significant.

For EZ Pass customers, it'll still be a $2 difference: $3 on the Tacony vs. $5 on the Betsy Ross.  But with the return of the EZ Pass toll credit, frequent EZ Pass customers will be getting an $18 credit for using EZ Pass 18 times or more (or something close to that).  The actual cost would be around $4 for the Betsy Ross.  Again - just a dollar difference.

So, the Burlington County Bridge Commission is going to have to tread lightly here.  Increase the tolls too much - even if they're lower than the DRPA's tolls - and they're still in the position to lose customers, and that will potentially decrease the expected revenue.
True - although a working toll could be $2.50 each direction, or a $3.50 WB toll.

jeffandnicole

They're not going to collect tolls in both directions.

ekt8750

Quote from: jeffandnicole on August 05, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if the $4 cash toll proposal becomes $3 in the final version.

If it's enacted as a $4 toll, daily commuters paying cash - especially those that use the Tacony - are going to be faced with a choice of using that bridge, which has congestion and frequent drawbridge openings, or just using the Betsy Ross, which is almost always free-flowing.  Commuters save a significant $3 today.  A $1 difference isn't as significant.

For EZ Pass customers, it'll still be a $2 difference: $3 on the Tacony vs. $5 on the Betsy Ross.  But with the return of the EZ Pass toll credit, frequent EZ Pass customers will be getting an $18 credit for using EZ Pass 18 times or more (or something close to that).  The actual cost would be around $4 for the Betsy Ross.  Again - just a dollar difference.

So, the Burlington County Bridge Commission is going to have to tread lightly here.  Increase the tolls too much - even if they're lower than the DRPA's tolls - and they're still in the position to lose customers, and that will potentially decrease the expected revenue.

Totally agree. A $.50-1.00 toll increase would be more palatable than the $2 they're proposing. In fact here's also people that avoid crossing the Ben to save that $3 by crossing the Tacony. Raising the toll to $4 would kill any justification in doing that. 

02 Park Ave

It has been announced that the Benjamin Franklin Bridge will be closed over the last weekend in September"
C-o-H

jeffandnicole

Quote from: 02 Park Ave on August 05, 2015, 03:31:34 PM
It has been announced that the Benjamin Franklin Bridge will be closed over the last weekend in September"

For the Pope's Visit in Philly that weekend.

That rumor has been going around for awhile.  What's a little surprising is that the bridge is supposed to remain closed until Monday, Sept 28 at noontime.  That'll create havoc on Monday morning's rush hour.  Not sure why the closing is needed into Monday.

Several miles of the Schuylkill Expressway & the entire Vine Street Expressway in Philly will be closed that weekend as well.  95 will remain open, but with some interchange closures.

SteveG1988

Let's put a breakdown of who owns what bridge, to prevent confusion

DRBA Delaware River & Bay Authority: The Cape May-Lewes Ferry, Delaware Memorial Bridge

DRPA Delaware River Port Authority: Commodore Barry, Walt Whitman, Ben Frankin, Betsy Ross.

Burlington County Bridge Commission: Tacony-Palmyra Bridge, Burlington-Bristol Bridge, and also a Rancocas Creek swing bridge, the Riverside-Delanco Bridge.

NJ/PA Turnpike: The Turnpike Bridge.

Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission: All bridges from Trenton to the Dingman's Ferry bridge, and the rest of the bridges after that til I-84.

Dingman's Ferry Bridge: Privately owned bridge.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

Alps


Pete from Boston


Quote from: noelbotevera on August 05, 2015, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
I think it is fair to expect an increase like this. 15 years is a long time to go without an increase. Inflation has probably hurt their ability to get work done as the cost of labor has gone up.
Except, those are the cheapest crossings between Wilmington and New York City. Of course there is going to be traffic - how are they not profitable? The lowest crossings excluding the 3 is:
1. I-78 Toll Bridge - WB Only (Easton PA-Phillipsburg NJ) ($1)
2. I-95 JFK Highway Bridge (Hatem Bridge too) ($8)
3. all tie for NYC - G. W. Bridge, Outerbridge Crossing, Verrazano Narrows Bridge, etc. ($14)

Tolls is cheap, so basically a ton of traffic will use the bridge, but yet DRPA is not profitable...
and plus, the Turnpike bridge is cancer.

CROSSINGS I'M TALKING ABOUT
Burlington-Bristol Toll Bridge
Tacony-Palmyra Toll Bridge

You lost me. 

The Hatem and Tydings bridges are between Wilmington and New York?

If you're being that generous you could at least have included the Tappan Zee ($5), the Route 80 bridge in Stroudsburg ($1), and the Bear Mountain Bridge ($1.50).

Port Authority bridges and tunnels are $14 cash round trip.  TBTA bridges (such as the Verrazano) are mostly $16 cash round trip.

And the economics here are not as simple as cheaper=busier=more profitable.  There's an upper limit on desirability (a free bridge is not necessarily the best route for all) and on capacity (lowering throughput, and thus desirability), and more use means more required maintenance costs.

Also, are public bridge authorities even supposed to be profitable?  They should be break-even operations over the long term, IMO.


noelbotevera

Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 05, 2015, 08:17:18 PM

Quote from: noelbotevera on August 05, 2015, 10:01:14 AM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 09:49:05 AM
I think it is fair to expect an increase like this. 15 years is a long time to go without an increase. Inflation has probably hurt their ability to get work done as the cost of labor has gone up.
Except, those are the cheapest crossings between Wilmington and New York City. Of course there is going to be traffic - how are they not profitable? The lowest crossings excluding the 3 is:
1. I-78 Toll Bridge - WB Only (Easton PA-Phillipsburg NJ) ($1)
2. I-95 JFK Highway Bridge (Hatem Bridge too) ($8)
3. all tie for NYC - G. W. Bridge, Outerbridge Crossing, Verrazano Narrows Bridge, etc. ($14)

Tolls is cheap, so basically a ton of traffic will use the bridge, but yet DRPA is not profitable...
and plus, the Turnpike bridge is cancer.

CROSSINGS I'M TALKING ABOUT
Burlington-Bristol Toll Bridge
Tacony-Palmyra Toll Bridge

You lost me. 

The Hatem and Tydings bridges are between Wilmington and New York?

If you're being that generous you could at least have included the Tappan Zee ($5), the Route 80 bridge in Stroudsburg ($1), and the Bear Mountain Bridge ($1.50).

Port Authority bridges and tunnels are $14 cash round trip.  TBTA bridges (such as the Verrazano) are mostly $16 cash round trip.

And the economics here are not as simple as cheaper=busier=more profitable.  There's an upper limit on desirability (a free bridge is not necessarily the best route for all) and on capacity (lowering throughput, and thus desirability), and more use means more required maintenance costs.

Also, are public bridge authorities even supposed to be profitable?  They should be break-even operations over the long term, IMO.
i removed my post because of sheer stupidity.  :banghead: why did i make that post.

TravelingBethelite

Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 06:39:46 PM
Let's put a breakdown of who owns what bridge, to prevent confusion

...

Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission: All bridges from Trenton to the Dingman's Ferry bridge, and the rest of the bridges after that til I-84.

...

Do you mean up to, but not including, I-84, or up to AND including I-84?  :confused:
"Imprisoned by the freedom of the road!" - Ronnie Milsap
See my photos at: http://bit.ly/1Qi81ws

Now I decide where I go...

2018 Ford Fusion SE - proud new owner!

SteveG1988

Quote from: TravelingBethelite on August 05, 2015, 10:26:00 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 06:39:46 PM
Let's put a breakdown of who owns what bridge, to prevent confusion

...

Delaware River Joint Toll Bridge Commission: All bridges from Trenton to the Dingman's Ferry bridge, and the rest of the bridges after that til I-84.

...

Do you mean up to, but not including, I-84, or up to AND including I-84?  :confused:

Up to but not including the i-84 bridge between PA and NY.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

ixnay

The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

ixnay

#21
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 06:39:46 PM
Burlington County Bridge Commission: Tacony-Palmyra Bridge, Burlington-Bristol Bridge, and also a Rancocas Creek swing bridge, the Riverside-Delanco Bridge.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rancocas+Creek,+New+Jersey,+USA/@40.0441038,-74.9588253,783m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c14ba77eb54be3:0x58345d4467c1f876

And in fact, 5 more bridges than those (if a twin pipe culvert counts)...

http://www.bcbridges.org/AboutUs/AboutOurBridges.aspx

ixnay
The Washington/Baltimore/Arlington CSA has two Key Bridges, a Minnesota Avenue, and a Mannasota Avenue.

Duke87

#22
Quote from: Pete from Boston on August 05, 2015, 08:17:18 PM
Port Authority bridges and tunnels are $14 cash round trip.  TBTA bridges (such as the Verrazano) are mostly $16 cash round trip.

Meh, those are the tourist toll rates. For regular customers (i.e. people with a local EZpass), PANYNJ is $11.75 on peak/$9.75 off peak, and TBTA is $11.08. The tolls from both, of course, more than 100% cover the cost of the crossings themselves and the extra cash goes to subsidize other operations of the same agency.

As for the Delaware river, all DRJTBC bridges that were built prior to the commission's founding in 1935 are free. All bridges built by the commission after 1935 are tolled, with the exception of the current Scudders' Falls Bridge because the feds helped pay for it. Since the feds aren't paying for the proposed replacement, it will be tolled.

An interesting parallel to New York City where basically the same thing is the case - bridges built prior to the 1930s are free. Bridges built from the 1930s onward are tolled.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

SteveG1988

Quote from: ixnay on August 06, 2015, 09:30:04 PM
Quote from: SteveG1988 on August 05, 2015, 06:39:46 PM
Burlington County Bridge Commission: Tacony-Palmyra Bridge, Burlington-Bristol Bridge, and also a Rancocas Creek swing bridge, the Riverside-Delanco Bridge.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Rancocas+Creek,+New+Jersey,+USA/@40.0441038,-74.9588253,783m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x89c14ba77eb54be3:0x58345d4467c1f876

And in fact, 5 more bridges than those (if a twin pipe culvert counts)...

http://www.bcbridges.org/AboutUs/AboutOurBridges.aspx

ixnay


Yup, it is kind of fair to let them go up to 4 dollars one way.
Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,

SteveG1988

Roads Clinched

I55,I82,I84(E&W)I88(W),I87(N),I81,I64,I74(W),I72,I57,I24,I65,I59,I12,I71,I77,I76(E&W),I70,I79,I85,I86(W),I27,I16,I97,I96,I43,I41,



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