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US 101 in the Olympic Peninsula

Started by mrsman, October 18, 2015, 10:07:10 AM

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mrsman

In the Northeast regional forum, a discussion came up about the confusion of certain routes changing direction.  The particluar issue was how to sign I-295 around Trenton once the interchange between the Penn Turnpike and I-95 was completed.

Anyway, the following question was asked:

Quote from: roadman65 on October 13, 2015, 12:42:42 PM


US 101 to me would confuse the hell out of me where NB becomes EB, and then becomes SB at an unsigned point.  It should have really terminated at Port Angeles as their is a ferry there to Victoria, BS. The rest of the road to Olympia should have been a Washington State Route. 

Do most people traveling to Olympia actually stay on US 101 all the way or do they leave the route and cut across the peninsula on other WA designations?

So I'll let the locals here address roadman's question:


kkt

People who just want to get from Aberdeen to Olympia as efficiently as possible obviously take US 12 to WA 8 to 101. 

A significant number of tourists drive the loop as part of a weekend or week vacation.  Many destinations are on side roads off of it, from hiking to beaches to resorts to hot springs.

nexus73

It is funny to see the E-W directional signs on 101 when on the northern section of the loop.  101 in Washington has less development than Oregon and Washington. Making up for that is the scenery.  You want to see water and temperate rain forests along with a few quaint but attractive towns?  This would be the place to go! 

Rick
US 101 is THE backbone of the Pacific coast from Bandon OR to Willits CA.  Industry, tourism and local traffic would be gone or severely crippled without it being in functioning condition in BOTH states.

thefraze_1020

Realistically, for the sake of a through route, US101 should be routed on (now) US12 and WA-8, and back onto US101 to I-5. However, the question remains, what would be the designation(s) of the road around the peninsula?
Alright, this is how it's gonna be!

J N Winkler

I personally don't object to US 101 making a hook along the outer edge of the Olympic Peninsula, with trailblazer cardinal direction tabs using actual rather than book direction.  The signing is pretty consistent and works well.

From the perspective of US highway policy, re-routing US 101 to bypass the peninsula (Aberdeen to Olympia via US 12 and SR 8) would isolate Olympic National Park and would arguably be undesirable for this reason alone.  With the obvious exceptions of Alaska and Hawaii, I cannot think of any crown-jewel national parks that are not on the US highway system.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kkt

I guess it would be a bit cleaner to have 101 go up the coast and end at Aberdeen, and make the Olympia-Aberdeen section a different US route, But it should stay a US route.  The change in signed direction is not the most pressing problem though, few people seem to be confused by it.


jakeroot

Quote from: kkt on October 18, 2015, 11:59:09 PM
The change in signed direction is not the most pressing problem though, few people seem to be confused by it.

This is my point of view. Going North on the 101 from Port Angeles to Olympia makes no sense. More people would be confused if it was signed properly.

kkt

Quote from: jakeroot on October 19, 2015, 02:57:14 AM
Quote from: kkt on October 18, 2015, 11:59:09 PM
The change in signed direction is not the most pressing problem though, few people seem to be confused by it.
This is my point of view. Going North on the 101 from Port Angeles to Olympia makes no sense. More people would be confused if it was signed properly.

Of course, at Port Angeles 101 is not signed North-South.  If you drive off the ferry dock from B.C. in Port Angeles and come to 101, it is signed East to Olympia and Seattle, West to Forks.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kkt on October 18, 2015, 11:59:09 PMI guess it would be a bit cleaner to have 101 go up the coast and end at Aberdeen, and make the Olympia-Aberdeen section a different US route, But it should stay a US route.

The problem with this fix is that it would create an intrastate-only US route of less than 400 miles, which violates current AASHTO policy.  Grafting all of the Olympic Peninsula mileage onto another US route would only transfer the hook issue to that route.

The approach that leaves the entire mileage in the US system without creating a hook in one route is to transfer all of US 101's mileage up to one of the direction change points (e.g., the one near Forks) to a different US route like US 12, while leaving the remainder of the mileage with US 101.  But this is a lot of trouble to fix a problem that pinches very few feet, and I don't recall that US 101 has any conveniently located TOTSOs between Aberdeen and Olympia that could be used to anchor a number change.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

corco

Frankly, it's no different than a giant beltway around the peninsula. Think about it that way and it's not so bad.

I assume people probably don't even use road numbers when discussing navigation up there - preferring to say "head towards Port Angeles" to "take 101 north and west"

jakeroot

Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 10:48:02 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on October 19, 2015, 02:57:14 AM
Quote from: kkt on October 18, 2015, 11:59:09 PM
The change in signed direction is not the most pressing problem though, few people seem to be confused by it.

This is my point of view. Going North on the 101 from Port Angeles to Olympia makes no sense. More people would be confused if it was signed properly.

Of course, at Port Angeles 101 is not signed North-South.  If you drive off the ferry dock from B.C. in Port Angeles and come to 101, it is signed East to Olympia and Seattle, West to Forks.

Good point. I forget how far west Port Angeles is.

Quote from: corco on October 19, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
I assume people probably don't even use road numbers when discussing navigation up there - preferring to say "head towards Port Angeles" to "take 101 north and west"

Personally, if someone was starting in Olympia, I'd say "take 101 north around the peninsula".

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
...and I don't recall that US 101 has any conveniently located TOTSOs between Aberdeen and Olympia that could be used to anchor a number change.

There is a nice split near the south end of Eld Inlet. You have to exit the freeway to stay on 101 North. Otherwise, you stay on Highway 8.

https://goo.gl/EMmDn4

kkt

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2015, 11:45:53 AM
Quote from: kkt on October 18, 2015, 11:59:09 PMI guess it would be a bit cleaner to have 101 go up the coast and end at Aberdeen, and make the Olympia-Aberdeen section a different US route, But it should stay a US route.
The problem with this fix is that it would create an intrastate-only US route of less than 400 miles, which violates current AASHTO policy.

You're right.  I wonder if the policy is against new US routes or is against transfers of existing US routes to rationalize the US route grid.  Otherwise US 111 would be a good number, not currently used in either the US numbers nor in the Washington route numbers.

Quote
The approach that leaves the entire mileage in the US system without creating a hook in one route is to transfer all of US 101's mileage up to one of the direction change points (e.g., the one near Forks) to a different US route like US 12, while leaving the remainder of the mileage with US 101.  But this is a lot of trouble to fix a problem that pinches very few feet, and I don't recall that US 101 has any conveniently located TOTSOs between Aberdeen and Olympia that could be used to anchor a number change.

So you'd suggest US 12 should stay with I-5 to Olympia, then follow 101 north then west to Port Angeles?  Then what would happen to current US 12 between Grand Mound and Aberdeen?  I'm not sure that would be an improvement.  I like US 12 heading pretty much westwards all the way until it reaches the ocean, instead of ending with a big northward stretch.  The current hook shape ending would be better, or even making 101 a new state route from Olympia to Port Angeles would be better.

Quote from: corco on October 19, 2015, 11:58:36 AM
Frankly, it's no different than a giant beltway around the peninsula. Think about it that way and it's not so bad.

I assume people probably don't even use road numbers when discussing navigation up there - preferring to say "head towards Port Angeles" to "take 101 north and west"

Yes, this is making me see why keeping the loop is a pretty good option.  :D

Alps

100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

J N Winkler

Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMYou're right.  I wonder if the policy is against new US routes or is against transfers of existing US routes to rationalize the US route grid.  Otherwise US 111 would be a good number, not currently used in either the US numbers nor in the Washington route numbers.

I think the policy governs both because its point of application would be acceptance or rejection of US route numbering proposals submitted to AASHTO.  I don't think US 111 would fly because it is much too far west to be a branch route of US 11, but a x12 might work given US 12 is in the vicinity.

Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMSo you'd suggest US 12 should stay with I-5 to Olympia, then follow 101 north then west to Port Angeles?  Then what would happen to current US 12 between Grand Mound and Aberdeen?  I'm not sure that would be an improvement.  I like US 12 heading pretty much westwards all the way until it reaches the ocean, instead of ending with a big northward stretch.  The current hook shape ending would be better, or even making 101 a new state route from Olympia to Port Angeles would be better.

US 12 would still reach the ocean if the US 101/US 12 meeting point were around Forks.  (Is there any overlap among roadgeeks and Twilight enthusiasts?)  Both Hurricane Ridge and the Hoh Rain Forest would have access off the US highway system, though from separate US routes.

Grand Mound-Aberdeen would probably need to have Washington state routes papered over the existing US 12 routing, though a spur routing of either US 101 or US 12 is a possibility.

Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMYes, this is making me see why keeping the loop is a pretty good option.  :D

Frankly, I agree.

Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2015, 10:22:46 PM100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

I have done Olympia-Aberdeen and the final approach to the Astoria-Megler bridge.  (I think there is US 101 mileage between Aberdeen and the SR 4 intersection I haven't traversed.)  The hook routing didn't confuse me in the least--it just makes for a long day of driving if side trips to Hurricane Ridge and the Hoh Rain Forest are included.
"It is necessary to spend a hundred lire now to save a thousand lire later."--Piero Puricelli, explaining the need for a first-class road system to Benito Mussolini

kkt

Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2015, 10:22:46 PM
100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

All the way to Olympia and then back north, instead of across the Hood Canal Bridge?  Wow.  You really like the scenic route!  Except for I-5 back north is just a PITA and not scenic at all.

kkt

Quote from: J N Winkler on October 19, 2015, 11:05:57 PM
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMYou're right.  I wonder if the policy is against new US routes or is against transfers of existing US routes to rationalize the US route grid.  Otherwise US 111 would be a good number, not currently used in either the US numbers nor in the Washington route numbers.
I think the policy governs both because its point of application would be acceptance or rejection of US route numbering proposals submitted to AASHTO.  I don't think US 111 would fly because it is much too far west to be a branch route of US 11, but a x12 might work given US 12 is in the vicinity.

There ought to be some way to make branch numbers off of US 101.  Unused US 1x1 numbers seem like a good idea to me.   :awesomeface:  US 12 wouldn't even meet the Olympia-Port Angeles route. 

Quote
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMSo you'd suggest US 12 should stay with I-5 to Olympia, then follow 101 north then west to Port Angeles?  Then what would happen to current US 12 between Grand Mound and Aberdeen?  I'm not sure that would be an improvement.  I like US 12 heading pretty much westwards all the way until it reaches the ocean, instead of ending with a big northward stretch.  The current hook shape ending would be better, or even making 101 a new state route from Olympia to Port Angeles would be better.
US 12 would still reach the ocean if the US 101/US 12 meeting point were around Forks.  (Is there any overlap among roadgeeks and Twilight enthusiasts?)  Both Hurricane Ridge and the Hoh Rain Forest would have access off the US highway system, though from separate US routes.

With all due respect to Twilight, its 15 minutes are just about up, and Forks is not important enough to be the end of two great US routes.

Quote
Grand Mound-Aberdeen would probably need to have Washington state routes papered over the existing US 12 routing, though a spur routing of either US 101 or US 12 is a possibility.

So we're back to some perfectly good US route being made into state routes?  Not really a good option.

Quote
Quote from: kkt on October 19, 2015, 04:08:55 PMYes, this is making me see why keeping the loop is a pretty good option.  :D

Frankly, I agree.

Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2015, 10:22:46 PM100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

I have done Olympia-Aberdeen and the final approach to the Astoria-Megler bridge.  (I think there is US 101 mileage between Aberdeen and the SR 4 intersection I haven't traversed.)  The hook routing didn't confuse me in the least--it just makes for a long day of driving if side trips to Hurricane Ridge and the Hoh Rain Forest are included.

I've done all of 101 but not all at the same time.  That loop thing :)

Sub-Urbanite

It's not confusing. It's weird, but it's not confusing.

Every time I've driven between Portland and Port Angeles, I've taken 101 all the way down to Oly. It's a major route.

mrsman

Quote from: NickCPDX on October 22, 2015, 05:42:41 PM
It's not confusing. It's weird, but it's not confusing.

Every time I've driven between Portland and Port Angeles, I've taken 101 all the way down to Oly. It's a major route.

US 101 is not confusing, because of how long this is.  Nobody will make the full journey around US 101 from Aberdeen to Olympia.  And if you're starting at one of the towns on the loop, it is pretty clear whether you need to go directly south to reach Olympia (or Aberdeen) or its better to first go north around the loop to reach Olympia (or Aberdeen).  By my estimation, at Forks it is pretty much equivalent to either take US 101 via Port Angeles to reach Olympia or to instead take US 101 south to Aberdeen and then take US 12 and WA-8 to Olympia.  Likewise, from Discovery Bay, it is pretty much equivalent to take US 101 via Port Angeles to reach Aberdeen or to instead take US 101 south to Olympia and then take WA-8 and US 12 to Aberdeen.

But regardless of all of this, it is not confusing.  Port Angeles is not the north pole where every road out is heading south.  US 101 has a significant east/west portion through there and it makes sense.

Utilizing control cities in a consistent manner is also very helfpul.

roadman65

Quote from: NickCPDX on October 22, 2015, 05:42:41 PM
It's not confusing. It's weird, but it's not confusing.

Every time I've driven between Portland and Port Angeles, I've taken 101 all the way down to Oly. It's a major route.
Its really weird considering it has two southern terminuses and there really is no northern terminus.

US 321 is another one, but that is weirder yet as there is no E-W signed portion in the middle.  It goes from N to S and in the other direction N to S at it reverses at one single point in Tennessee.
Every day is a winding road, you just got to get used to it.

Sheryl Crowe

Duke87

Quote from: kkt on October 20, 2015, 12:16:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2015, 10:22:46 PM
100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

All the way to Olympia and then back north, instead of across the Hood Canal Bridge?  Wow.  You really like the scenic route!  Except for I-5 back north is just a PITA and not scenic at all.

And then you have NY/CT roadgeeks, who go over the Hood Canal Bridge but then continue following WA 104 because they mistakenly believe the turn they need to make onto WA 3 is a freeway onramp, get all the way to Kingston before realizing their error, then turn around and follow WA 307 and WA 305 to resume intended course of WA 3 to WA 16 to I-5.

I routed myself this way in part because crossing the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was more important to me than finishing 101 in Washington, and also in part because finishing 101 would have taken extra time I did not particularly have to spare.


As for the comparison to 295 in New Jersey, I don't think it's particularly apt since the distance between the two NS/EW swaps is much greater for 101.
If you always take the same road, you will never see anything new.

Alps

Quote from: Duke87 on December 06, 2015, 12:40:14 AM
Quote from: kkt on October 20, 2015, 12:16:52 AM
Quote from: Alps on October 19, 2015, 10:22:46 PM
100% of New Jersey roadgeeks follow US 101 all the way around the loop to get from Astoria to Seattle.

All the way to Olympia and then back north, instead of across the Hood Canal Bridge?  Wow.  You really like the scenic route!  Except for I-5 back north is just a PITA and not scenic at all.

And then you have NY/CT roadgeeks, who go over the Hood Canal Bridge but then continue following WA 104 because they mistakenly believe the turn they need to make onto WA 3 is a freeway onramp, get all the way to Kingston before realizing their error, then turn around and follow WA 307 and WA 305 to resume intended course of WA 3 to WA 16 to I-5.

I routed myself this way in part because crossing the Tacoma Narrows Bridge was more important to me than finishing 101 in Washington, and also in part because finishing 101 would have taken extra time I did not particularly have to spare.
I did all of those things, but intentionally (rather clinch multiple routes) and still getting US 101. And WA 3.



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