New North Dakota state route marker design

[vdeane]

In any case, it strikes me as similar to how every New England state (except Vermont and New Hampshire) use the exact same square (save for Rhode Island including "RI" at the top).  Of course, it wouldn't be this way if ND and SD weren't in the heart of rectangle state territory.

[jakeroot]

Even if there were same numbers in neighboring states with designs similar to each other, people don't follow "Idaho Highway 24" or "Washington State Route 512", they follow "Highway 24" or "512 Freeway". The state they are in really doesn't have any bearing on their route selection, it's just the number.

[SD Mapman]

It seems to me that the new shields will look essentially identical on guide signs.  The "green" SD shields are really just green borders, so the fact that the border is green does nothing to differentiate the shield on a guide sign, and I can't imagine that the "North Dakota" text will make it onto a guide sign either.  Looks too much like a banner in that circumstance.

We will just have to see how things develop.  My suspicion is that if NDDOT decides to eliminate "NORTH DAKOTA" for the guide-sign marker, as is a reasonable choice for keeping digit height above a minimum value that allows easy reading, they will have to follow SDDOT's example and use a three-digit-width shield for both two- and three-digit routes since neither state outline is really recognizable when it is manipulated to fill a square box completely.

Per Corco's observations, I would expect recognition to be a problem only in situations involving borderlands travel near the I-29 corridor (the only freeway that crosses the border between the two states) where the driver is able to move between a SD freeway sign with the SD guide-sign shield and a ND freeway sign with the ND guide-sign shield without being aware of crossing a state line or being exposed to the independent-mount shields in both states, which are readily differentiable from each other.

Such a thing can happen (I made a silent crossing of the Kansas/Nebraska state line on a county road when visiting the Arikaree Breaks several weeks ago, and confirmed I was in Nebraska largely on the basis of cues like bolded digits and white outlines on route markers once I hit US 34), but working out an itinerary whereby it is possible is not a trivial task.

That's also where one of the two number-continuity routes is, so that makes sense (127). (but the other one is 1804 so...)

Also, SD is fanatical about even numbers being east-west and odd numbers being north-south, ND uses Clearview, and the way the signs are set up is slightly different between states (I don't know what it is, but something just feels off). (Yes, I'm contradicting myself here, just go with it.)

[Henry]

Circle shields are very commonplace too. Hell, even two adjacent states (NJ and DE) use them!

(save for Rhode Island including "RI" at the top)

IN and IL put their names on top of the rectangle too! Only difference is, they actually spell them out. SC used to share its design with RI until it recently converted to new blue-and-white with the state outline on top.

[SD Mapman]

It seems to me that the new shields will look essentially identical on guide signs.  The "green" SD shields are really just green borders, so the fact that the border is green does nothing to differentiate the shield on a guide sign, and I can't imagine that the "North Dakota" text will make it onto a guide sign either.  Looks too much like a banner in that circumstance.

In any case, it strikes me as similar to how every New England state (except Vermont and New Hampshire) use the exact same square (save for Rhode Island including "RI" at the top).  Of course, it wouldn't be this way if ND and SD weren't in the heart of rectangle state territory.

True, but no one else uses state shapes.

[Jovet]

It is page 75 in this PDF file (part of Job 31 in the letting of November 13, 2015):
http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20151113-0930/Job%2031/SOIB-5-200(024)075%20Final%20Plans%203of7%20ED.pdf

Did anyone else notice that they have the "A" and "B" (X/Y) dimensions reversed on the 3-digit sign diagram?

[J N Winkler]

I did not notice the reversal of dimension labelling.  However, after pulling up the sheet again and looking at it, I see that the 18" height has a single-asterisk footnote call and the footnote reads:  "Sign not for indecent use (only for use within a guide sign)."

Malapropism aside, this implies that the guide-sign version is the same as the independent-mount version, which means black on green (major rule of tincture violation:  ugh).

[SD Mapman]

I did not notice the reversal of dimension labelling.  However, after pulling up the sheet again and looking at it, I see that the 18" height has a single-asterisk footnote call and the footnote reads:  "Sign not for indecent use (only for use within a guide sign)."

Malapropism aside, this implies that the guide-sign version is the same as the independent-mount version, which means black on green (major rule of tincture violation:  ugh).

Guess we'll have to wait and see when they go up in the field.

[yakra]

In any case, it strikes me as similar to how every New England state (except Vermont and New Hampshire) use the exact same square (save for Rhode Island including "RI" at the top).  Of course, it wouldn't be this way if ND and SD weren't in the heart of rectangle state territory.

Hey now. CT uses a thicker black border than ME/MA!

[brownpelican]

It seems to me that the new shields will look essentially identical on guide signs.  The "green" SD shields are really just green borders, so the fact that the border is green does nothing to differentiate the shield on a guide sign, and I can't imagine that the "North Dakota" text will make it onto a guide sign either.  Looks too much like a banner in that circumstance.

In any case, it strikes me as similar to how every New England state (except Vermont and New Hampshire) use the exact same square (save for Rhode Island including "RI" at the top).  Of course, it wouldn't be this way if ND and SD weren't in the heart of rectangle state territory.

True, but no one else uses state shapes.

Ahem...

[yakra]

ID, AL...

[J N Winkler]

"No one else uses state shapes" has to be read in the context of the earlier statement that ND and SD are "in the heart of rectangle state territory."

[froggie]

It appears route markers aren't the only things North Dakota is about to change:

http://www.aashtojournal.org/Pages/12232015ndakota.aspx

[SD Mapman]

It appears route markers aren't the only things North Dakota is about to change:

http://www.aashtojournal.org/Pages/12232015ndakota.aspx

Those look a little too crowded for my taste, but as I live south of the border it's not my problem.

[J N Winkler]

NDDOT project SNH-2-013(054)262 (Job 3 in the just-advertised letting for February 5, 2016) appears to be the first to call for the new route markers in the eastern half of the state, near Kulm.  The route marker sheet includes a drawing for four-digit routes, for which Series B digits are used.  Oddly enough, the final sign layout sheet marks two Indian head shields (for ND 13 and ND 56) as "Existing to remain."

(Kulm is the German exonym for a Polish town, Chelmno, which was in Prussia 1772-1920 and became the site of an extermination camp during World War II.)

[Brandon]

It appears route markers aren't the only things North Dakota is about to change:

http://www.aashtojournal.org/Pages/12232015ndakota.aspx

Not bad.  A hell of a lot better than the state route marker redesign.

[jhuntin1]

The re-design makes me sad. I've always thought that North Dakota's state routes had the most attractive signs.

[paulthemapguy]

I always like it when states mix it up with their state highway symbols.  There are too many states using circles, squares, squares with the state name, and state shapes.  Any distinctive name or color scheme is nice.  Like the yellow sunflowers of Kansas, or the Colorado state flag, or the busts of George in Washington.  So the conversion of ND's signs to a hum-drum state shape would be a step down in originality.  Though I also hope that they don't use SD's green background so they remain distinct. (something more colorful than black-and-white might be pretty cool though? like blue?)

[vdeane]

Regardless of what color the background is, they'll still look the same on guide signs, unless North Dakota decides to pull a NJ.

[paulthemapguy]

So has anybody seen one of these used in the field yet?  Any photos they'd like to share?

[SD Mapman]

So has anybody seen one of these used in the field yet?  Any photos they'd like to share?

To do that, someone would have to go to North Dakota... and I can't think of anyone who would want to do that when they could go to South Dakota .

[SD Mapman]

More evidence that this is the new way of doing things (probably overkill, but what the heck).
http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20160318-0930/Job%2010/SS-1-806(050)031_Final%20Plans_ED.pdf
http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20160318-0930/Job%2010/SS-1-024(021)008_Final%20Plans_ED.pdf
While they are not correct specs (unlike the diagram earlier), they are very similar to SD's "stylized" route markers in South Dakota plans.

[J N Winkler]

Probably the first guide-sign use of the new shield is in a regionwide sign retroreflectivity upgrade contract, also in the March 18, 2016 letting.  Sign panel detail sheets are in these two files:

http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20160318-0930%5CJob%2048%5CSHE-9-999(346)%20Final%20Plans%202of3%20ED.pdf

http://www.dot.nd.gov/business/bidopenings/20160318-0930%5CJob%2048%5CSHE-9-999(346)%20Final%20Plans%203of3%20ED.pdf

There are a total of 262 pattern-accurate sign panel detail sheets.

As an aside, it is not too often that I find not one, but two, really large pure signing contracts when I do the weekly run of my downloader controller script on Monday night.  The other was for permanent signing of a new motorway segment of Danish Route 15, a northern bypass of Silkeborg (grading and some paving now visible in Google Maps satellite view) that closes a gap between two other motorway lengths of Route 15.  The contract includes not just fixed permanent signs for the new motorway, but also patches and overlays regionwide, since the Danish highway authorities are also updating the control city network to exploit the coming availability of a continuous motorway from Herning to Aarhus.  There were a total of 259 sign panel detail sheets, 77 for "Tavler" (signs on Route 15 itself) and 182 for "Følgevejvisning" (regionwide sign modifications).

[vdeane]

Doesn't North Dakota know that shield backgrounds aren't to be used on guide signs?  Yuk.  Looks like we have a new New Jersey on our hands.

[mariethefoxy]

So what was the issue with the native american head design? Didnt they use a similar design for decades?