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Unnecessary control cities

Started by dvferyance, June 23, 2016, 08:12:40 PM

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briantroutman

Quote from: GaryV on February 01, 2017, 06:38:21 PM
Quote from: tckma on February 01, 2017, 04:07:06 PM
Quote from: kkt on January 24, 2017, 06:21:43 PM
Yreka is, umm, good for word games?

Zzyzx is better for word games, I think.

Too bad Scrabble has only 1 Z.

Yes, but two (albeit non-scoring) blank tiles.

Of course proper names aren't allowed, but...


kphoger

It's more of an improper name, if you ask me.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Roadgeekteen

All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
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Current Interstate map I am making:

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/edit?hl=en&mid=1PEDVyNb1skhnkPkgXi8JMaaudM2zI-Y&ll=29.05778059819179%2C-82.48856825&z=5

mwb1848

#128
Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?

:clap:

Even more so, those which exist solely because of a junction with a US highway. (Santa Rosa, NM; Van Horn, Texas; and McComb, Mississippi I'm looking at you.)

Here's my running list of ideal control cities. Let me know what you think:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11NPi2nTWI5mBt0FWx2x3RSscQsnKPMrs_qdzJqvEKo0/edit?usp=sharing

SP Cook

Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
All control cities that are there just because of an Interstate junction. How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?

Agree.  While the standards need to be flexable due to the very long distances in some parts of the country between towns of any significance, being a JCT of  two interstates, or worse yet of an interstate and some lesser road such as an Appalachian Corridor, is a dumb reason to be a control city.  People that are navigating by route numbers already know that.  Cambridge, and a lot of other similar places, if the JCT was one exit up or down the road, would never be considered.   

I would think that control cities should be towns of enough significance that a person of reasonable education would know of their existance just as a matter of being a functioning part of society.  Generally that is population, but other factors can be educational (college towns), tourist destinations, transportation hubs (which is more than two interstates crossing in a corn field), historical significance,  political (state capitals) or military (major bases). 

Of the roads in my area, IMHO, on 77 I would use Wytheville because it is a major cross roads and a regional services hub.  Then Bluefield, then Charleston, then Parkersburg because Cleveland is too far, then Cleveland or Canton-Akron-Cleveland.  On 64 from Lexington they should use Huntington because the road only skirts Ashland and Ashland is a smaller town of little significance, the Charleston then I think you have to go with Beckley and then Lewisburg, even though both are small.  The next city of any more significance is maybe Lexington VA, which would cause confusion with Lexington KY, and really it would be Richmond, which is just too far, although the secondary use of Charlotte and Richmond at the 64 77 split is helpful.  79 should just use Morgantown, then Pittsburgh.  Clarksburg and Fairmont are insignificant and Washington PA is little more than Cambridge and confusing with DC.  Really the best control "city" for 68 at Morgantown is just "Maryland".  Cumberland is not significant, and "Baltimore" or "Baltimore-Washington" is too far. 

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

amroad17

And Norfolk along I-64 East.

Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.
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TheHighwayMan3561

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Quote from: Roadgeekteen on April 17, 2017, 02:29:41 AM
How is the average Joe supposed to know where Cambridge Ohio is?
They don't. Ohio uses Columbus/Wheeling W.Va for control points on I-70, and Cleveland/Marietta for control points on I-77. You only see Cambridge on the local roads.
Please, don't sue Alex & Andy over what I wrote above

The Nature Boy

Quote from: amroad17 on April 17, 2017, 04:18:01 PM
And Norfolk along I-64 East.

Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.

I'm assuming that you're referring to the I-80/90 multiplex, no?

There are plenty of noteworthy places along I-90. Cleveland, Buffalo, and Albany are all pretty useful control points for eastbound I-90 traffic.

paulthemapguy

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 18, 2017, 10:29:31 AM
Quote from: amroad17 on April 17, 2017, 04:18:01 PM
And Norfolk along I-64 East.

Also, any control point for I-80 and I-90 east of Chicago.

I'm assuming that you're referring to the I-80/90 multiplex, no?

There are plenty of noteworthy places along I-90. Cleveland, Buffalo, and Albany are all pretty useful control points for eastbound I-90 traffic.

Not if you're in northern Indiana.

There aren't really many useful locales along I-80/90 through Indiana.  Here in Joliet, IL, the eastern control city shown is either Gary, Toledo, or simply "Indiana."  The tollways through Ohio and Indiana are mainly intended as a route long-distance travelers, hence the heavily-limited access.  I always kind of wondered why no signs in the Chicago area mention anything about Cleveland.  Toledo is good enough I guess.
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kkt

If there aren't well-known control cities in Indiana, they should use cities outside of Indiana.  I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

Of course I-5's control cities here are Vancouver BC and Portland OR.

Bickendan

Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
If there aren't well-known control cities in Indiana, they should use cities outside of Indiana.  I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

Of course I-5's control cities here are Vancouver BC and Portland OR.

At least it's not Blaine and Vancouver.

jaehak

Quote from: SP Cook on April 17, 2017, 02:24:41 PM

Agree.  While the standards need to be flexable due to the very long distances in some parts of the country between towns of any significance, being a JCT of  two interstates, or worse yet of an interstate and some lesser road such as an Appalachian Corridor, is a dumb reason to be a control city.  People that are navigating by route numbers already know that.  Cambridge, and a lot of other similar places, if the JCT was one exit up or down the road, would never be considered.   

I would think that control cities should be towns of enough significance that a person of reasonable education would know of their existance just as a matter of being a functioning part of society.  Generally that is population, but other factors can be educational (college towns), tourist destinations, transportation hubs (which is more than two interstates crossing in a corn field), historical significance,  political (state capitals) or military (major bases). 

Of the roads in my area, IMHO, on 77 I would use Wytheville because it is a major cross roads and a regional services hub.  Then Bluefield, then Charleston, then Parkersburg because Cleveland is too far, then Cleveland or Canton-Akron-Cleveland.  On 64 from Lexington they should use Huntington because the road only skirts Ashland and Ashland is a smaller town of little significance, the Charleston then I think you have to go with Beckley and then Lewisburg, even though both are small.  The next city of any more significance is maybe Lexington VA, which would cause confusion with Lexington KY, and really it would be Richmond, which is just too far, although the secondary use of Charlotte and Richmond at the 64 77 split is helpful.  79 should just use Morgantown, then Pittsburgh.  Clarksburg and Fairmont are insignificant and Washington PA is little more than Cambridge and confusing with DC.  Really the best control "city" for 68 at Morgantown is just "Maryland".  Cumberland is not significant, and "Baltimore" or "Baltimore-Washington" is too far.

I totally agree with your first two paragraphs, but you lost me on the third one. I'm a roadgeek, and I've never heard of Wytheville, Bluefield, Parkersburg, Ashland, or Lewisburg. No rank and file motorist from outside the region will have any clue where those places are. As an outsider, I'd go with (from Charleston) Morgantown, Huntington (or even Lexington KY), and Beckly (only because of the long 64-77 concurrency), and then from Beckly I'd go Charleston, Charlotte, and Richmond. I agree that 79 out of Morgantown should be Pittsburgh.

kphoger

Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

Amen!
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

Brandon

Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

You mean it doesn't?  And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

kphoger

Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

You mean it doesn't?  And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.

People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi.  They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.

bzakharin

Quote from: kphoger on April 19, 2017, 01:53:36 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

Amen!
Or on the other side of the state line, see Morrisville on US 1 in NJ or Del Water Gap on I-80 in NJ

GaryV

Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

You mean it doesn't?  And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.

People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi.  They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.

As opposed to New Yorkers, who see the world as New England, New York, New Jersey, [some something], California.  All of them roughly the same size.

briantroutman

Quote from: GaryV on April 20, 2017, 08:37:49 PM
As opposed to New Yorkers, who see the world as New England, New York, New Jersey, [some something], California.  All of them roughly the same size.

About like this?


inkyatari

Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

You mean it doesn't?  And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.

People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi.  They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.

Don't you mean the Fox River and South of 80?
I'm never wrong, just wildly inaccurate.

The Nature Boy

I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.



Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.

SP Cook

Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.

Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.

Agree.  And, since you brought up the subject, while not as formalized as interstates, other major roads, also should have informative control cities that a reasonabably knowledgable person might actually have heard of, expecially if exiting from an interstate onto another level of highway is something a major portion of the traffic is going to do at that exit.

The Nature Boy

Quote from: SP Cook on April 21, 2017, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: The Nature Boy on April 21, 2017, 10:11:33 AM
I was driving down I-95 in NC today and noticed that the US 64 interchange is a mess of unnecessary control cities.

Rocky Mount - Nashville - Tarboro are a line of neighboring towns. It quite literally tells me nothing about WHERE US 64 goes beyond this small, geographic cluster. Since US 64 gets me to Raleigh, I'd use that. I'd keep Rocky Mount but Nashville and Tarboro are useless here.

Agree.  And, since you brought up the subject, while not as formalized as interstates, other major roads, also should have informative control cities that a reasonabably knowledgable person might actually have heard of, expecially if exiting from an interstate onto another level of highway is something a major portion of the traffic is going to do at that exit.

There should definitely be a test of "would the average person know of this destination?" Control cities are ultimately supposed to be informative. NC DOT misses that point so often.

The only area where they get it correct (in my mind) is signing Richmond as a control city on I-95 north of Rocky Mount.

kphoger

Quote from: inkyatari on April 21, 2017, 09:14:53 AM
Quote from: kphoger on April 20, 2017, 01:03:06 PM
Quote from: Brandon on April 19, 2017, 06:00:18 PM
Quote from: kkt on April 18, 2017, 12:20:06 PM
I have no sympathy with state DOT's pretending the world ends at the state line.

You mean it doesn't?  And here we thought the whole world just stopped being once you hit the Mississippi River.

People in Chicago know there's a world west of the Mississippi.  They just think it's one huge field of corn till you get to California.

Don't you mean the Fox River and South of 80?

No, if the corn starts at the Fox River, then they can no longer make fun of Iowa.
Keep right except to pass.  Yes.  You.
Visit scenic Orleans County, NY!
Male pronouns, please.

Quote from: Philip K. DickIf you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use them.



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