Northwest Observations (with some Canada too!)

[corco]

In my experience, turnout signs (which have now been added to the national MUTCD) do not work well unless drivers are already familiar with them.  I still remember being the first car behind another with Iowa plates on the twisty stretch of US 34 just east of Estes Park, Colorado in 2003.  There were multiple turnouts and signs indicating that they had to be used, but the Iowa car drove past at least a dozen of them without slowing down, while a queue of at least 20 cars built up behind it.  I finally lost patience and put my foot to the floor in an area of marginal visibility, and once I finished my overtaking maneuver, there were no cars in my rearview mirror for about 15 minutes.

In Washington, turnout signs were state-specific standard signs for at least a decade before they were added to the national MUTCD.  In California, they have been standard signs since the Great Redrawing of 1971 at the very least.  But in both states (and also in Idaho, in my experience), turnout signs are not used unless paved turnouts are actually provided and topography makes it impractical or expensive to provide continuous full-width shoulders.  US 101 in the Olympic Peninsula has a very constrained alignment for much of its length (essentially mountains to one side, the Pacific Ocean to the other), and it also has a much higher volume of interurban bicycle traffic than most rural state highways.  In fact, there are special warning signs which cater specifically to cyclists.

That's definitely the case in Washington and Idaho.

In my experience, Idaho's signage for those turnouts is much more extensive than other states. Typically as you enter a corridor with them, there is a sign, and then half a mile and a quarter mile before every turn out is a sign indicating that there is a turnout ahead and vehicles with more than three cars behind them must pull out.

Washington's signage is much more vague- I'm not sure that I would know what exactly it meant had I not already been familiar with Idaho's law. There definitely aren't nearly as many "VEHICLES DELAYING X CARS MUST TURN OUT" signs.

On multiple occasions on Idaho 55, I've seen cars behind cars that fail to use pullouts start to pass those cars anyway, and then those vehicles quickly realize they need to get in the pullout. That's pretty dangerous though.

On a related note, Washington has some setups on the Olympic Peninsula (definitely on 109 and 112, maybe 101 too) with a full shoulder where the shoulder is designated as a passing lane but still striped as a shoulder with a daylight only restriction.

[sp_redelectric]

WSDOT's also planning on widening the four-lane portion between Centralia and Olympia at some point.

The widening is now complete to the north end of Centralia, just north of the Harrison exit, with active construction starting south of there.  The Grand Mound interchange (U.S. 12 West) is substantially complete; at least it was the last time I was there a few weeks ago.

[sp_redelectric]

Washington's signage is much more vague- I'm not sure that I would know what exactly it meant had I not already been familiar with Idaho's law. There definitely aren't nearly as many "VEHICLES DELAYING X CARS MUST TURN OUT" signs.

My experience is that in Oregon the law is virtually ignored; in Washington it's largely ignored.  Oregon 6 has a few pullouts but even ODOT doesn't consistently mark the pullout (sometimes it's marked as a shoulder with an "entrance" and an "exit", sometimes it's marked as a passing lane, sometimes it's a hybrid of the two).

[sp_redelectric]

I would also be curious to see if Oregon continues the practice of centering exit tabs because that has become a no-no according to the latest MUTCD.

Actually, no, that is not quite true.  What the latest MUTCD now bans is the use of anything but a left-aligned tab for left exits.  Ordinary right exits can continue to have center-justified exit tabs, though the MUTCD shows part-width right-justified exit tabs.

ODOT installed some new signs on U.S. 26 (Sunset Highway) in Hillsboro that have right-justified exit tabs.  Looks odd.

The new "LGS" (little green sign) for 185th Avenue also looks odd, it's a very small sign for a major north-south arterial.  But this is because "PCC Rock Creek" is removed from the exit signs and shows up only on a secondary sign.

[sp_redelectric]

Using Salem as a control city is so much better than Oregon's use of Oregon City, rather than Seattle, as the control city for the southern end of I-205.

[xonhulu]

Using Salem as a control city is so much better than Oregon's use of Oregon City, rather than Seattle, as the control city for the southern end of I-205.

That change at the southern end happened when they replaced the signs recently.  I wondered when they changed the control city to Oregon City if ODOT decided that either no through traffic was using 205 to avoid downtown Portland, or that there isn't really much advantage to doing so, since traffic on 205 is really no better than I-5 anymore.

[sp_redelectric]

either no through traffic was using 205 to avoid downtown Portland, or that there isn't really much advantage to doing so, since traffic on 205 is really no better than I-5 anymore.

Which is why ODOT needs to install a "Travel Time via..." sign down there...or at least use the existing VMS to display that information.  I-205 is often the better alternative on some weekends if there is a major event going on downtown and if you're travelling opposite the direction of the Vancouver to downtown commute (i.e. in the mornings northbound).  But if traffic is good, why bother with 205?

Or...ODOT can do what WSDOT does with SR 500 - no control city at all.

[kphoger]

Regarding the gas attendant policy, I don't like pumping gas, and when I lived in Washington, I purposely sought out a station where I didn't have to do self-serve--it also happened to be the cheapest station in town, coincidentally.  It doesn't really bother me that we have that restriction, and it doesn't seem to really affect the prices.

I am not foolish enough to imagine that Oregon or, for that matter, New Jersey will abandon compulsory full-service because out-of-staters dislike it.  Indeed, I suspect that each bit of criticism from out of state only strengthens Oregonians' and New Jerseyans' determination to keep it.

This said, however, I prefer self-service even though I dislike pumping gas.  First, I am deaf, so it is infinitely more cumbersome for me to get out of my car and start negotiating with an attendant than it is to pump my own gas.  Second, I have owned cars which trigger pump shutoffs prematurely when gas is pumped in at full volume, which most attendants do by default since they think, incorrectly, that that will get me in and out faster.

The one gas station attendant I have met in Oregon who seemed clued in to the possibility of premature pump shutoff was a retiree working in Baker City, and if all pump attendants in the state were like him, I could live happily with a full-service policy.  But it was more usual for me to drive into a station with just a pint left in a 15.5-gallon tank, request a complete fillup (leaving Bend for Burns, say), and then be presented with a chit to sign for just 2.5 gallons because that was when the pump shutoff tripped.

I've read that the auto-shutoff thing is especially annoying for motorcyclists, since the tank might only be half-full at that point.  My experience with statewide full-service gas stations is limited to México.  I actually tell the attendants to stop at the click, because gas tends to spill out when you go past that point in our car.  Sometimes they say yes and then forget by the time it's done filling up, so they keep going anyway.  It seems to be common procedure there to squeeze every possible drop into the tank.  I keep half-expecting them to shake the vehicle to get the foam to settle just so they can put in one more dL.

Personally, I have no preference between self- and full-service gas.  I will say that truck station diesel pumps usually pump fuel at such a high rate that you'll get sprayed when it clicks off, and I'd rather have someone else get sprayed.  Never had that problem with octane pumps, though.

[agentsteel53]

Diesel is OK for self-service.  Go figure.  Apparently the driver of a Volkswagen Jetta TDI is smarter than the driver of a gasoline engined Jetta.

diesel fuel is much less flammable.  if it's the fire marshal who wags the green finger at gas stations, then Oregon is assuming that drivers do not know how to pump gas without setting themselves on fire. 

just another wacky Oregon nanny-state policy.  even here, in fire-paranoid southern California, we're allowed to pump our own gas.

[agentsteel53]

In my experience, turnout signs (which have now been added to the national MUTCD) do not work well unless drivers are already familiar with them.

California has had them since 1971 (if not earlier), and I've had maybe two cars obey them in my entire history of driving in the state, which is many hundreds of thousands of miles.

slow drivers tend to be the "can't be arsed" sort of personality style that doesn't give a shit about other people who may be impeded by his obnoxiousness.

[kphoger]

Diesel is OK for self-service.  Go figure.  Apparently the driver of a Volkswagen Jetta TDI is smarter than the driver of a gasoline engined Jetta.

diesel fuel is much less flammable.  if it's the fire marshal who wags the green finger at gas stations, then Oregon is assuming that drivers do not know how to pump gas without setting themselves on fire. 

just another wacky Oregon nanny-state policy.  even here, in fire-paranoid southern California, we're allowed to pump our own gas.

Interesting how, in México, attendants wear long-sleeved fire-retardant uniforms; whereas I've pumped gas at stations in Nevada and Colorado that didn't even have any employees on-site at all.

[mp_quadrillion]

btw, native reservations in Oregon are self-serve.  and cheaper!

"Where's the freakin' att -- oh, right! I'm not actually in Oregon when I'm on the rez!" I try to buy tribal whenever I can -- but noticing exactly what you did (last year when I was there) is even more incentive. It's bad enough everywhere else having to go inside for just the receipt when the printer won't print.. but you end up with this drawn-out ordeal just to pump and pay at some of the busier stations in Portland. When it works it works; when it doesn't it really doesn't.

I've never had a dirtier windshield than the time I've passed in "full service" states.

Also: NO U-TURN in Oregon unless it says so! A policeman in Lake Oswego politely explained the state's clear-as-mud policy without ticketing me. But basically unless there's a sign on the signal stating "U-TURN PERMITTED" it's a no-no. I forget what the rule was at intersections controlled by a sign rather than a signal.. but I remember the whole thing being a nuisance.

[Bickendan]

Yep, if it ain't marked, don't U-turn. There are a few that specifically forbid it, though (iirc, Barbur at Terwilliger, may be mistaken on this one).

[CentralCAroadgeek]

Last installment to this...

British Columbia Observations

First of all, what is this custom font that BC used on their older signs?

This picture has quite a lot in it. Why doesn't Canada use the blue hospital signs? Also, it seems that Canada uses slightly different symbols for the service (blue) signs. I see that BC also likes using their Helvetica/Arial.

Does the rest of Canada use decimals (as in 2.2 km) instead of fractions (as in 2 1/4 km) on their mileage signs?

I like the Canadian "city limit" signs. I wonder what they'd look like in green and with population an elevation like in California...

I wonder why Canada uses these jagged borders on signs like this instead of a solid border...

This sure is a variation on the APL (arrow-per-lane) diagrammatics. I'm not sure if the arrow is supposed to be that short. I also like that the airport code (in this case, YVR) is highlighted in yellow. Seems like a nice touch.

Are signs like this cut out for any special reason? (Also with one of the few BC-99 shields I've seen in Highway Gothic)

So are the flashing green lights in Canada similar to the flashing yellows I've mentioned earlier?

Is this the Canadian version of the "no parking" sign?

This sure is unique. I wonder what the leftmost sign would say... If you're wondering, this is approaching the George Massey Tunnel south of Richmond.

[Brandon]

BC uses different signage than Ontario for some of this.  Some of these signs may be BC-specific.
1. I've never seen dashed borders in Ontario.  I may be wrong about them not being there.
2. Ontario tends to stick with the FHWA series more often, or Clearview on newer signage.
3. Ontario uses a lot more down arrows than up arrows.
4. The MTO drops the word "exit" from the BGSs and just uses the number in a tab.

[sp_redelectric]

Yep, if it ain't marked, don't U-turn. There are a few that specifically forbid it, though (iirc, Barbur at Terwilliger, may be mistaken on this one).

U-Turns are permitted by sign at Terwilliger (both northbound and southbound), as well as at Bertha (northbound only, for access to Fred Meyer).  I think you are right in that there is a NO U-Turn sign somewhere but I can't think of where it is.

What's more common are the U-Turn Permitted/"Cars Only", or U-Turn Permitted/No Trucks (symbol).

[national highway 1]

Last installment to this...

Are signs like this cut out for any special reason? (Also with one of the few BC-99 shields I've seen in Highway Gothic)

It's a Canadian thing, primarily used in Ontario as demonstrated here. The angle on the sign refers to which way the split goes.

Angled exit signs were common in Ontario until the late 1970s or so when their use was phased out.  A few still exist.  Not the best photo (and the old king's highway crowns have been covered over as a result of highway downgrading), but a contender nevertheless:

Is this the Canadian version of the "no parking" sign?

I believe that the P in a green circle does allow 2 hour parking between 9am and 3pm from Monday to Saturday in that direction.
Notice how the red crossed-circle signs have the stop-sign octagon inside? I'm pretty sure they're for 'No Stopping' between the times indicated.

[Brandon]

Angled signs like that are/were not just a Canadian thing.  The Ohio Turnpike had them until the 1980s, and the Indiana Toll Road used to have them at least until the late 1970s as seen here.

[kphoger]

I'm not aware of any metric countries using fractional distances.  Usually they're expressed in tenths of kilometers or whole meters.  Anyone have pictures of fractional kilometer signs, especially in Canada?

[The High Plains Traveler]

Last installment to this...

So are the flashing green lights in Canada similar to the flashing yellows I've mentioned earlier?

Flashing green is exactly equivalent to a U.S. green arrow. Fully protected turn. Short interval after the flashing stops before oncoming traffic gets their green, but no yellow arrow equivalent.

[dmuzika]

BC has slightly different signage than other parts of Canada, so things like the white city limits signs, dashed borders, and overhead cutout signs would be considered things that are more-or-less unique to British Columbia.  Canada does have both "no stopping" and "no parking" signs and other provinces have started using blue hospital signs (for example, they're used in Calgary).

Flashing green is exactly equivalent to a U.S. green arrow. Fully protected turn. Short interval after the flashing stops before oncoming traffic gets their green, but no yellow arrow equivalent.

That is true for all other provinces in Canada (more-so seen in Ontario, Quebec, and points east), however this is not the case in British Columbia.  BC uses flashing greens at pedestrian controlled signals (i.e. the cross street has a stop sign, not a red light) and so you will not be protected from oncoming traffic when you see a BC flashing green.  You can debate the wisdom behind being different from virtually the rest of North America, but that is the case in BC.

This sure is unique. I wonder what the leftmost sign would say... If you're wondering, this is approaching the George Massey Tunnel south of Richmond.

The George Massey Tunnel on Hwy 99 has Counterflow (i.e reversable) lanes during rush hour, so on weekdays from 6 am-9 am it's 3 NB lanes, 1 SB and from 3:20 pm-6 pm it's 3 SB and 1 NB lane.  The variable signage will reflect these changes and the blank panel likely refects the 3rd lane.

[JREwing78]

Also: NO U-TURN in Oregon unless it says so! A policeman in Lake Oswego politely explained the state's clear-as-mud policy without ticketing me. But basically unless there's a sign on the signal stating "U-TURN PERMITTED" it's a no-no. I forget what the rule was at intersections controlled by a sign rather than a signal.. but I remember the whole thing being a nuisance.

Interesting. In Wisconsin, it's U-turn permitted unless a sign says otherwise.

[mgk920]

Also: NO U-TURN in Oregon unless it says so! A policeman in Lake Oswego politely explained the state's clear-as-mud policy without ticketing me. But basically unless there's a sign on the signal stating "U-TURN PERMITTED" it's a no-no. I forget what the rule was at intersections controlled by a sign rather than a signal.. but I remember the whole thing being a nuisance.

Interesting. In Wisconsin, it's U-turn permitted unless a sign says otherwise.

Wisconsin just changed that as of 2011-01-01, too.  Before then, U-turns were prohibited at all signalized intersections statewide.  That law was being increasingly ignored, so the legislature changed it.

Mike

[1995hoo]

....

Does the rest of Canada use decimals (as in 2.2 km) instead of fractions (as in 2 1/4 km) on their mileage signs?

....

Metric is a decimal (base-10) system, so the use of quarters and thirds and the like is deprecated and uncommon. As "kphoger" said, usually distances under a kilometre are posted as a whole number of metres; distances over a kilometre are usually posted as a decimal, although off the top of my head most such signs I've seen use half-kilometre intervals (for example, an advance sign for an exit reading either "1.5 km" or, in Quebec, "1,5 km" because in French the comma is used as the decimal point).

I don't ever remember seeing a fractional metric measurement anywhere. There's really no point in it when everything is in tenths anyway.

...

Is this the Canadian version of the "no parking" sign?

....

As "national highway 1" noted, the green circle is used to indicate that something is permitted. For prohibitions they normally use the red circle with the slash. I've seen things like a green circle containing an arrow indicating "straight or left." It means it's OK to turn left or go straight out of that lane, but not turn right; I've also seen a green circle with just a right-turn arrow, which is the functional equivalent of "right-turn only" because the only movement the sign is allowing is a right turn. To a lot of American drivers those sorts of signs are alien because the signs here are tailored more towards telling you what you CANNOT do, rather than the approach of "you can do what the sign allows and nothing else."

At least in Quebec I'm sure part of the theory behind that kind of sign comes from the French civil-law tradition, under which you are allowed to do only what the law says you are allowed to do. In common-law countries like the USA, Australia, UK, and most of Canada, the basic principle is that an action is allowed unless the law prohibits it. (Both of those sentences are way oversimplified to make just the basic point.)

[mgk920]

....

Does the rest of Canada use decimals (as in 2.2 km) instead of fractions (as in 2 1/4 km) on their mileage signs?

....

Metric is a decimal (base-10) system, so the use of quarters and thirds and the like is deprecated and uncommon. As "kphoger" said, usually distances under a kilometre are posted as a whole number of metres; distances over a kilometre are usually posted as a decimal, although off the top of my head most such signs I've seen use half-kilometre intervals (for example, an advance sign for an exit reading either "1.5 km" or, in Quebec, "1,5 km" because in French the comma is used as the decimal point).

I don't ever remember seeing a fractional metric measurement anywhere. There's really no point in it when everything is in tenths anyway.

In much of Europe, IIRC, they post 'meters' on many signs, such as interchange approach signs, up to 10km and 'km' above.  For example, an exit ramp that is 3.5 km away will be signed as "3500 m".

...

Is this the Canadian version of the "no parking" sign?

....

As "national highway 1" noted, the green circle is used to indicate that something is permitted. For prohibitions they normally use the red circle with the slash. I've seen things like a green circle containing an arrow indicating "straight or left." It means it's OK to turn left or go straight out of that lane, but not turn right; I've also seen a green circle with just a right-turn arrow, which is the functional equivalent of "right-turn only" because the only movement the sign is allowing is a right turn. To a lot of American drivers those sorts of signs are alien because the signs here are tailored more towards telling you what you CANNOT do, rather than the approach of "you can do what the sign allows and nothing else."

At least in Quebec I'm sure part of the theory behind that kind of sign comes from the French civil-law tradition, under which you are allowed to do only what the law says you are allowed to do. In common-law countries like the USA, Australia, UK, and most of Canada, the basic principle is that an action is allowed unless the law prohibits it. (Both of those sentences are way oversimplified to make just the basic point.)

I like the European logic of 'red circle' = 'prohibited', 'green circle' = 'permitted but not mandatory' and 'blue disk with white image/lettering/numbers' = 'mandatory action'.

Mike