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Signage Question

Started by jcn, August 29, 2017, 04:45:34 PM

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jcn

Here's something I don't get.  If I-69 is actually signed East-West in Michigan, then why isn't I-26 signed North-South from Asheville to its western terminus.


jp the roadgeek

From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

Brandon

It seems to vary by state.  I-69 is signed north-south from Indiana to Lansing.  From Lansing to Port Huron, it is signed east-west.

From what I've seen, some states (NC) are more anal about it than others.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

SectorZ

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.

I'm curious if that's rule or just accepted convention.

hotdogPi

Quote from: SectorZ on August 29, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.

I'm curious if that's rule or just accepted convention.

Well, except beltways, obviously.

NY 7 changes in the middle, but it's only a state route.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

Flint1979

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.
I don't see how that's the case when I-69 does indeed change direction in Lansing. Lansing is about 70 miles from the Indiana/Michigan border where I-69 enters Michigan. It changes at exit 91 (I-96) and exit 81 (I-69). From exit 81 east it's signed east and west.

Scott5114

By default, the cardinal direction is based on whether the route number is even or odd. Any deviation from that is decided by a particular state DOT.

So I-69 is east-west because Michigan decided to sign it that way, and I-26 is east-west because North Carolina decided to sign it that way.
uncontrollable freak sardine salad chef

vdeane

I'd go so far as to say that all of I-26 could be signed north-south... which begs the question of why it has an even number in the first place.  I guess if they have have an odd east-west interstate they can have an even north-south one (arguably two, with I-74).
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

ilpt4u

#8
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.
In IL, the ISTHA used to sign the I-94 section of the Tri-State North/South, but IDOT signed the Edens/Kennedy/Dan Ryan/Bishop Ford sections of I-94 East/West

Personally, I think I-94 should be signed North/South completely in IL, but the state went the other way, with ISTHA joining IDOT in signing I-94 uniformly East/West, and I believe it even has consistent Mileage Markers along the route, WI to IN, following the 94 designation, not the individual Roadways

Of course, the lack of nominal Cardinal direction aligning with actual Cardinal direction, might be part of the reason Chicago Traffic reports refer to "Inbound" and "Outbound" for each Expressway...90/94 runs more N/S and signed E/W, and at least from the Plainfield area into the City, I-55 runs more E/W than N/S. I-290 is more N/S from the Schaumburg area to the Strangler, then E/W from the Strangler into the City, but is signed E/W the whole route...etc etc

hbelkins

This seems to be as good of a place as any to ask this question.

How does each individual state through which US 52 passes sign that route?

ND: ???
MN: N/S
IA: N/S
IL: E/W
IN: E/W
OH: E/W
WV: N/S
VA: N/S
NC: N/S
SC: ??? I've seen it both ways in my limited experience with the route in South Carolina. It's mostly signed E/W between Cheraw and the NC line, but there are some instances of it being signed N/S. Which is more prevalent?


Government would be tolerable if not for politicians and bureaucrats.

jp the roadgeek

Quote from: 1 on August 29, 2017, 07:43:19 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on August 29, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.

I'm curious if that's rule or just accepted convention.

Well, except beltways, obviously.

NY 7 changes in the middle, but it's only a state route.

I would imagine state routes could change at county or town lines.  RI 138 changes from E-W to N-S on the Newport/Middletown town line.
Interstates I've clinched: 97, 290 (MA), 291 (CT), 291 (MA), 293, 295 (DE-NJ-PA), 295 (RI-MA), 384, 391, 395 (CT-MA), 395 (MD), 495 (DE), 610 (LA), 684, 691, 695 (MD), 695 (NY), 795 (MD)

Quillz

Quote from: SectorZ on August 29, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.

I'm curious if that's rule or just accepted convention.
I feel like it's just convention, rather than a solid rule. For example, US-101 is nominally a south-north route through California, but many on-ramps in the S.F. Valley sign it as west-east due to its local orientation, as the 101 doesn't really start to turn north until near the Gaviota Tunnel. So it's an instance where signage basically implies north/west and south/east. I would imagine other states might do something similar.

This is one of the reasons I think there should be diagonal signage, if that would even be possible. I had the idea of basically including something like (NB) | West. The former indicating the overall orientation of the route (northbound), but the immediate direction (west). For routes that like to change direction, such as I-69, it might be useful.

Flint1979

Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
By default, the cardinal direction is based on whether the route number is even or odd. Any deviation from that is decided by a particular state DOT.

So I-69 is east-west because Michigan decided to sign it that way, and I-26 is east-west because North Carolina decided to sign it that way.
It's the direction you are traveling in anyway. I-69 took over for M-21 which use to go all the way to Port Huron as a two lane highway, it ends in downtown Flint at I-475 now.

I read somewhere that they kept it east-west because that's the direction it goes in across the state. I think the whole thing should be an odd number and signed north-south but with it being in between I-75 and I-77 it would have to be either a long three digit or out of order in the numbering system. It's a diagonal route but runs more north-south so I really don't understand the number or direction of that highway. It could very easily be a spur off many routes such as I-95, I-20, I-85, I-40 and I-81. Strange one there.

JJBers

Except for oddball signage, I've never found this problem in New England and New York.
*for Connecticut
Clinched Stats,
Flickr,
(2di:I-24, I-76, I-80, I-84, I-95 [ME-GA], I-91)

KEVIN_224

I've seen US Route 1 in coastal Connecticut signed as East/West a few times. It does happen in New England. :(

JJBers

Quote from: KEVIN_224 on August 30, 2017, 05:00:04 AM
I've seen US Route 1 in coastal Connecticut signed as East/West a few times. It does happen in New England. :(
Quote from: JJBers on August 30, 2017, 02:11:45 AM
Except for oddball signage
*for Connecticut
Clinched Stats,
Flickr,
(2di:I-24, I-76, I-80, I-84, I-95 [ME-GA], I-91)

Mapmikey

Quote from: hbelkins on August 29, 2017, 10:26:48 PM

SC: ??? I've seen it both ways in my limited experience with the route in South Carolina. It's mostly signed E/W between Cheraw and the NC line, but there are some instances of it being signed N/S. Which is more prevalent?

E-W is more prevalent.  N-S seems to be more prevalent in just Florence County, though when I was growing up I seem to remember some N-S postings closer to Charleston.

TheHighwayMan3561

Quote from: hbelkins on August 29, 2017, 10:26:48 PM
This seems to be as good of a place as any to ask this question.

How does each individual state through which US 52 passes sign that route?

ND: ???

ND signs it E-W.

Not sure if MN signed it entirely N-S or if the part now absorbed by I-94 changed over to E-W somewhere.
self-certified as the dumbest person on this board for 5 years running

Eth

Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2017, 12:59:52 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
By default, the cardinal direction is based on whether the route number is even or odd. Any deviation from that is decided by a particular state DOT.

So I-69 is east-west because Michigan decided to sign it that way, and I-26 is east-west because North Carolina decided to sign it that way.
It's the direction you are traveling in anyway. I-69 took over for M-21 which use to go all the way to Port Huron as a two lane highway, it ends in downtown Flint at I-475 now.

I read somewhere that they kept it east-west because that's the direction it goes in across the state. I think the whole thing should be an odd number and signed north-south but with it being in between I-75 and I-77 it would have to be either a long three digit or out of order in the numbering system. It's a diagonal route but runs more north-south so I really don't understand the number or direction of that highway. It could very easily be a spur off many routes such as I-95, I-20, I-85, I-40 and I-81. Strange one there.

Interstate numbers in the Carolinas make much more sense if you reinterpret the meaning of "north" to be "parallel to the coast". 85 and 95 (and 87, I guess) are roughly parallel to the coast, so they're north-south. 26, the new 42, 40 (at least east of Winston-Salem), and even 74 are roughly perpendicular to the coast, so they're east-west.

Mapmikey

Quote from: Mapmikey on August 30, 2017, 06:47:39 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on August 29, 2017, 10:26:48 PM

SC: ??? I've seen it both ways in my limited experience with the route in South Carolina. It's mostly signed E/W between Cheraw and the NC line, but there are some instances of it being signed N/S. Which is more prevalent?

E-W is more prevalent.  N-S seems to be more prevalent in just Florence County, though when I was growing up I seem to remember some N-S postings closer to Charleston.

Virginia used to sign US 52 as E-W...



Quillz

Quote from: Eth on August 30, 2017, 08:28:28 AM
Quote from: Flint1979 on August 30, 2017, 12:59:52 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 29, 2017, 07:47:16 PM
By default, the cardinal direction is based on whether the route number is even or odd. Any deviation from that is decided by a particular state DOT.

So I-69 is east-west because Michigan decided to sign it that way, and I-26 is east-west because North Carolina decided to sign it that way.
It's the direction you are traveling in anyway. I-69 took over for M-21 which use to go all the way to Port Huron as a two lane highway, it ends in downtown Flint at I-475 now.

I read somewhere that they kept it east-west because that's the direction it goes in across the state. I think the whole thing should be an odd number and signed north-south but with it being in between I-75 and I-77 it would have to be either a long three digit or out of order in the numbering system. It's a diagonal route but runs more north-south so I really don't understand the number or direction of that highway. It could very easily be a spur off many routes such as I-95, I-20, I-85, I-40 and I-81. Strange one there.

Interstate numbers in the Carolinas make much more sense if you reinterpret the meaning of "north" to be "parallel to the coast". 85 and 95 (and 87, I guess) are roughly parallel to the coast, so they're north-south. 26, the new 42, 40 (at least east of Winston-Salem), and even 74 are roughly perpendicular to the coast, so they're east-west.
Quebec autoroutes use a similar system where north/south are generally perpendicular to the St. Lawrence River.

thenetwork

Quote from: Mapmikey on August 30, 2017, 08:38:10 AM

Virginia used to sign US 52 as E-W...




And I thought Virginia always used cutouts until the last 15 years or so.

In re: I-26, it was given the even number as the original segment was moreso east/west. 

TheStranger

Route 70 in California changes from north-south to east-west after reaching Route 191, IIRC.  (I haven't been that far north on the highway, only up to Route 149)

Route 2 IIRC has been signed as east-west primarily but the Glendale Freeway portion, which is north-south, is signed north-south at times.
https://goo.gl/maps/MF7MyXYoNNp

US 6 was originally signed east-west for its entire run in California, back when it ran north-south all the way to Long Beach.  However, the truncated portion still left is now signed as north-south

Chris Sampang

cl94

Quote from: 1 on August 29, 2017, 07:43:19 PM
Quote from: SectorZ on August 29, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.

I'm curious if that's rule or just accepted convention.

Well, except beltways, obviously.

NY 7 changes in the middle, but it's only a state route.

Nowhere near the middle. Change is at Bevier St in Binghamton. Under 13 miles of the 180 mile route are signed N/S and it's the only change I know of that isn't at a major intersection or county line. NY 28's two changes are at county lines (Ulster/Delaware and Hamilton/Warren). NY 3's two changes are at the NY 264 intersection and Jefferson/Oswego line.
Please note: All posts represent my personal opinions and do not represent those of my employer or any of its partner agencies.

Travel Mapping (updated weekly)

jwolfer

Quote from: jp the roadgeek on August 29, 2017, 05:06:04 PM
From what I've seen, Interstate and US routes can only change directions at state borders.  Examples are US 62 and US 202.  US 62 changes from East/West to North/South at the OH/PA border.  US 202 changes a couple times; N-S to E-W at NJ/NY border, back to N-S at the CT/MA border, then E-W once again at the MA/NH border.  So for I-26 to be signed N-S on that stretch, it would have to be for the entire NC stretch.
US 98 is Florida is EW from Alabama line to Perry.. It is NS from there to around Lake Okeechobee( i am not sure where) and then EW in Palm Beach County

LGMS428




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