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Amazon HQ2

Started by Bruce, September 07, 2017, 05:45:59 PM

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MaxConcrete

Quote from: briantroutman on September 22, 2017, 09:17:20 PM
That's why I have doubts that any smaller dark horse candidate cities really have a chance. No matter how much money could be saved on land and building costs, the fear would be that they would lose far more by failing to attract the most talented candidates–that top few percent who will come up with the billion-dollar ideas.

You've perfectly identified the major flaw in Amazon's approach. Are they going to locate this HQ2 to please the top few percent, or to please the other 95% (or at least a large majority)?

The Amazon specification says "The jobs will likely be broken down into the following categories: executive/management, engineering with a preference for software development engineers (SDE), legal, accounting, and administrative."

This suggests that the vast majority of people at this campus will not be liberal millennial software engineers who like to live in trendy urban areas. They will be ordinary folks doing routine business work - accountants, business majors, managers and lawyers. If a majority of the workforce is family-oriented and prefers to live in a suburb with affordable housing and good schools, then does it make sense to place all these functions in one location in a downtown area just to satisfy the pre-family-phase millennials?

It seems like it makes more sense to have two or three hubs, each with a specific focus. The software hub would be in a place attractive to the top few percent, like San Francisco, Boston, NYC, Austin, Denver or maybe Raleigh-Durham. A logistics business hub would be in place like Atlanta or DFW. And the executive/legal/finance hub would be in a regional business center, and many cities could qualify (Chicago, numerous cities in the northeast, Atlanta, etc.)

Who knows, maybe they'll realize one-place-fits-all can't be done, and end up at multiple locations to optimize their position.
www.DFWFreeways.com
www.HoustonFreeways.com


Bruce

Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2017, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2017, 01:50:47 PMIn addition to cheaply building their campus, they want to live the urbanist dream.
When the story of Amazon looking for a 2nd city first broke out; one news station did a quick synopsis of how its presence changed Seattle over the past decade.  Two things stood out (to me anyway): 1.  Increased/inflated real estate prices (already discussed here) & 2.  Increased traffic/congestion along the region's highways.

Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways. The population of the Seattle Metro continues to grow, no thanks to Amazon, but there's no way you could single-handedly blame Amazon for all of our real-estate and congestion woes. Right off the top of my head, Weyerhaeuser recently moved its headquarters from Federal Way (south of Seattle by about 30 minutes) right into Pioneer Square (downtown Seattle). That's several thousand people that now commute into the city that previously did not. This is in addition to the dozens (hundreds?) of other large businesses operating in the city. Surely they are just as much to blame.

Most new arrivals are choosing transit, instead of driving, so it's being offset. And there's tons of new housing oriented towards Amazon employees (and their high salaries) being built within a 10-block radius of the campus.

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2017, 10:23:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2017, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2017, 01:50:47 PMIn addition to cheaply building their campus, they want to live the urbanist dream.
When the story of Amazon looking for a 2nd city first broke out; one news station did a quick synopsis of how its presence changed Seattle over the past decade.  Two things stood out (to me anyway): 1.  Increased/inflated real estate prices (already discussed here) & 2.  Increased traffic/congestion along the region's highways.

Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways. The population of the Seattle Metro continues to grow, no thanks to Amazon, but there's no way you could single-handedly blame Amazon for all of our real-estate and congestion woes. Right off the top of my head, Weyerhaeuser recently moved its headquarters from Federal Way (south of Seattle by about 30 minutes) right into Pioneer Square (downtown Seattle). That's several thousand people that now commute into the city that previously did not. This is in addition to the dozens (hundreds?) of other large businesses operating in the city. Surely they are just as much to blame.

Most new arrivals are choosing transit, instead of driving, so it's being offset. And there's tons of new housing oriented towards Amazon employees (and their high salaries) being built within a 10-block radius of the campus.

I seem to recall a stat that suggested three-quarters of all downtown commuters use transit? That's impressive if true. And ideal, since there's no room to expand roads. Not that we should consider doing so, given how much room the family wagon takes up compared to a full bus or train. But there will always be those who insist on driving, so naturally, congestion will always rise as a population center's economy booms (such is the case in Seattle -- back during the Boeing Bust years, traffic was great, but downtown was empty!)

PHLBOS

Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PMTraffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways.
Newsflash: other cities, particularly older ones have the same exact problem.

Quote from: ParrDa on September 22, 2017, 03:08:13 PMBased on this argument, it would be in Amazon's best interest to pick a city with cheap land and spare highway capacity. Rochester has both  :sombrero:
And yet, there's serious discussion/consideration going on about removing one of its core highways (I-81 in Rochester) that would be beneficial to Amazon if they were to pick your city.
Edit: realized the I was mistaking Syracuse for Rochester (it was a long week).  My bad.
GPS does NOT equal GOD

hotdogPi

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 23, 2017, 12:01:58 PM
And yet, there's serious discussion/consideration going on about removing one of its core highways (I-81 in Rochester) that would be beneficial to Amazon if they were to pick your city.

You're thinking of I-81 in Syracuse. I-81 does not go to Rochester; Rochester's freeway removal (of the Inner Loop) already happened.
Clinched, minus I-93 (I'm missing a few miles and my file is incorrect)

Traveled, plus US 13, 44, and 50, and several state routes

I will be in Burlington VT for the eclipse.

jakeroot

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 23, 2017, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways.

Newsflash: other cities, particularly older ones have the same exact problem.

No shit. It's the reason why any city with a booming economy suffers from traffic congestion. Not enough room to cope with demand. Amazon is simply part of the cog.

Bruce

Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2017, 03:36:15 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2017, 10:23:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2017, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2017, 01:50:47 PMIn addition to cheaply building their campus, they want to live the urbanist dream.
When the story of Amazon looking for a 2nd city first broke out; one news station did a quick synopsis of how its presence changed Seattle over the past decade.  Two things stood out (to me anyway): 1.  Increased/inflated real estate prices (already discussed here) & 2.  Increased traffic/congestion along the region's highways.

Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways. The population of the Seattle Metro continues to grow, no thanks to Amazon, but there's no way you could single-handedly blame Amazon for all of our real-estate and congestion woes. Right off the top of my head, Weyerhaeuser recently moved its headquarters from Federal Way (south of Seattle by about 30 minutes) right into Pioneer Square (downtown Seattle). That's several thousand people that now commute into the city that previously did not. This is in addition to the dozens (hundreds?) of other large businesses operating in the city. Surely they are just as much to blame.

Most new arrivals are choosing transit, instead of driving, so it's being offset. And there's tons of new housing oriented towards Amazon employees (and their high salaries) being built within a 10-block radius of the campus.

I seem to recall a stat that suggested three-quarters of all downtown commuters use transit? That's impressive if true. And ideal, since there's no room to expand roads. Not that we should consider doing so, given how much room the family wagon takes up compared to a full bus or train. But there will always be those who insist on driving, so naturally, congestion will always rise as a population center's economy booms (such is the case in Seattle -- back during the Boeing Bust years, traffic was great, but downtown was empty!)

Commute Seattle reports that 47 percent of downtown commuters use transit, followed by 30 percent driving alone, 9 percent carpooling/rideshare, 6 percent by foot, and 3 percent by bicycle.

jakeroot

Quote from: Bruce on September 23, 2017, 03:54:45 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2017, 03:36:15 AM
Quote from: Bruce on September 22, 2017, 10:23:25 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 22, 2017, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: vdeane on September 21, 2017, 01:50:47 PMIn addition to cheaply building their campus, they want to live the urbanist dream.
When the story of Amazon looking for a 2nd city first broke out; one news station did a quick synopsis of how its presence changed Seattle over the past decade.  Two things stood out (to me anyway): 1.  Increased/inflated real estate prices (already discussed here) & 2.  Increased traffic/congestion along the region's highways.

Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways. The population of the Seattle Metro continues to grow, no thanks to Amazon, but there's no way you could single-handedly blame Amazon for all of our real-estate and congestion woes. Right off the top of my head, Weyerhaeuser recently moved its headquarters from Federal Way (south of Seattle by about 30 minutes) right into Pioneer Square (downtown Seattle). That's several thousand people that now commute into the city that previously did not. This is in addition to the dozens (hundreds?) of other large businesses operating in the city. Surely they are just as much to blame.

Most new arrivals are choosing transit, instead of driving, so it's being offset. And there's tons of new housing oriented towards Amazon employees (and their high salaries) being built within a 10-block radius of the campus.

I seem to recall a stat that suggested three-quarters of all downtown commuters use transit? That's impressive if true. And ideal, since there's no room to expand roads. Not that we should consider doing so, given how much room the family wagon takes up compared to a full bus or train. But there will always be those who insist on driving, so naturally, congestion will always rise as a population center's economy booms (such is the case in Seattle -- back during the Boeing Bust years, traffic was great, but downtown was empty!)

Commute Seattle reports that 47 percent of downtown commuters use transit, followed by 30 percent driving alone, 9 percent carpooling/rideshare, 6 percent by foot, and 3 percent by bicycle.

What I must have read was that around three-quarters of those who work in Seattle do not drive themselves (instead opting for public transit, carpooling, biking, walking, etc).

If I am reading it correctly, that report also mentions that 95% of new commutes between 2010-2016 were absorbed by things other than driving alone. That's crazy! Though, it's representative of how much money we've pumped into our non-driving infrastructure just in the last decade. Glad to see it paying off.

PHLBOS

Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2017, 03:40:44 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 23, 2017, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways.
Newsflash: other cities, particularly older ones have the same exact problem.
No shit. It's the reason why any city with a booming economy suffers from traffic congestion. Not enough room to cope with demand. Amazon is simply part of the cog.
Whoa there!  The only reason I replied to your comment the way I did was it appeared (to me anyway) that you were insinuating that Seattle was the only city that couldn't widen its highways; Amazon or no Amazon.  If such wasn't the case; I apologize.

Quote from: 1 on September 23, 2017, 12:03:16 PMYou're thinking of I-81 in Syracuse. I-81 does not go to Rochester; Rochester's freeway removal (of the Inner Loop) already happened.
Yeah, I realized such about 2 hours after I logged off (it was a long week).  I've since lined out my prior post.

Anyway & FWIW, the Philadelphia Inquirer posted another article regarding Amazon's effect had on the real estate market in Seattle (the article doesn't state that Amazon was solely responsible but it did light the fuse as it were).

Beware, Philadelphia: Amazon could drive up housing prices
GPS does NOT equal GOD

jakeroot

Quote from: PHLBOS on September 25, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 23, 2017, 03:40:44 PM
Quote from: PHLBOS on September 23, 2017, 12:01:58 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on September 22, 2017, 02:32:48 PM
Traffic congestion in Seattle has gotten steadily worse due to the lack of available space to improve or widen existing highways.

Newsflash: other cities, particularly older ones have the same exact problem.

No shit. It's the reason why any city with a booming economy suffers from traffic congestion. Not enough room to cope with demand. Amazon is simply part of the cog.

Whoa there!  The only reason I replied to your comment the way I did was it appeared (to me anyway) that you were insinuating that Seattle was the only city that couldn't widen its highways; Amazon or no Amazon.  If such wasn't the case; I apologize.

I think Seattle does suffer from a slightly unique problem. High housing costs force a lot of people out of the city, but the city is surrounded by water and lots of hills, so there's little space for new roads, and widening existing roads is expensive due to ROW costs. There are other cities with this issue (the Bay Area comes to mind) but it's certainly not a common situation.

The Nature Boy

Why not a place like Detroit? Lots of open land, highway capacity and it'd be a good feel good PR story for Amazon.

And also, it's not that far from Toronto and Chicago.

kkt

I think they want someplace with walkable downtowns with a lot of entertainment options, also excellent outdoor recreation areas within day trip range.

Brandon

Quote from: kkt on September 26, 2017, 01:14:31 PM
I think they want someplace with walkable downtowns with a lot of entertainment options, also excellent outdoor recreation areas within day trip range.

Again, why not Detroit?  All of those things are there.  There's plenty of land near New Center and Midtown (which effectively are extensions of Downtown).  It's walkable in those areas.  There's entertainment options nearby (it's the only city to have all four major sports play in/near downtown - NHL, MLB, NFL, & NBA).  And outdoors options are close by, starting with the Metroparks, and nearby state parks.
"If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention." - Ramsay Bolton

"Symbolic of his struggle against reality." - Reg

Max Rockatansky

Quote from: Brandon on September 26, 2017, 01:20:12 PM
Quote from: kkt on September 26, 2017, 01:14:31 PM
I think they want someplace with walkable downtowns with a lot of entertainment options, also excellent outdoor recreation areas within day trip range.

Again, why not Detroit?  All of those things are there.  There's plenty of land near New Center and Midtown (which effectively are extensions of Downtown).  It's walkable in those areas.  There's entertainment options nearby (it's the only city to have all four major sports play in/near downtown - NHL, MLB, NFL, & NBA).  And outdoors options are close by, starting with the Metroparks, and nearby state parks.

The Metroparks are actually a pretty nice feature to the Detroit area, I actually went to a couple on my recent trip for old times sake.  Belle Isle has more or less become the defacto trendy city park near downtown Detroit.  Imagine my surprise after almost 20 years of not living there to see cycling groups in downtown on their way to Belle Isle, I never thought I'd see that when I lived there.

Rothman

Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position(s) of NYSDOT.

jeffandnicole

Quote from: jeffandnicole on September 20, 2017, 03:21:10 PM
Camden, NJ is also considering wooing Amazon.

I believe they're going with the tagline "We'll plow this entire fucking city into the river and start over if you choose us".  :-D

http://www.phillyvoice.com/camden-plans-make-play-new-amazon-headquarters/

There are a few plusses:  For a city of 77,000, it has subway access (PATCO), a light rail line (NJ Transit), ferry access from Philly, highway access (I-676) and a non-highway that functions as a limited access route and is actually wider than I-676 for much of its distance (US 30).

The big minus: It's Camden.  A lot would need to be knocked down to create the campus setting or towers needed for their buildout.  Amazon could definitely change Camden if they chose the city in many positive ways (I highly doubt they will choose Camden though).



An article in the Philly Inquirer highlights some these qualities that Camden has going for them. I still believe Camden is a long shot though.

http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/kevin_riordan/what-scrappy-camden-offers-amazon-others-cant-a-chance-to-lift-up-an-entire-city-20171014.html?mobi=true

BigRedDog

I've not really followed this closely, beyond our local news. That said, the local news here in SW PA is making a big deal about Pittsburgh's push to get Amazon here. The big reference points are space at the old Mellon Arena site (and potentially space at Pittsburgh International Airport) that Allegheny County has control over; the growth of the tech sector, including the presence of Google, Facebook, and driverless car programs; and the city's higher education pipeline, notably, among others, Carnegie Mellon.

kalvado

Quote from: BigRedDog on October 15, 2017, 12:02:01 AM
I've not really followed this closely, beyond our local news. That said, the local news here in SW PA is making a big deal about Pittsburgh's push to get Amazon here. The big reference points are space at the old Mellon Arena site (and potentially space at Pittsburgh International Airport) that Allegheny County has control over; the growth of the tech sector, including the presence of Google, Facebook, and driverless car programs; and the city's higher education pipeline, notably, among others, Carnegie Mellon.
I wonder what this could mean in terms of Turnpike tolls: Amazon wants good transit, and we know why that is a sour point for Turnpike users...

sparker

On top of all the US cities pitching their stuff to Amazon, it seems, at least according to the news reports I've been listening to (primarily KCBS out of S.F.) 3 Canadian cities: Calgary, Hamilton, and Ottawa -- have been actively campaigning for "Amazon II" as well.   No front-runner among these as of yet -- although Hamilton, being close enough to Toronto to avail one's self of that city's amenities,  would seem to be the selection that would most fit Amazon's criteria. 

jakeroot

Ottawa doesn't seem like such a bad choice. Puts Amazon in a nice position to be able to easily schmooze the Canadian Parliament. Good transit and a well educated populace as well.

My only reservation is the relative isolation of the area. Unlike Hamilton, Ottawa is basically by itself out in Eastern Ontario.

kalvado

Quote from: jakeroot on October 19, 2017, 10:12:11 AM
Ottawa doesn't seem like such a bad choice. Puts Amazon in a nice position to be able to easily schmooze the Canadian Parliament. Good transit and a well educated populace as well.

My only reservation is the relative isolation of the area. Unlike Hamilton, Ottawa is basically by itself out in Eastern Ontario.
I would be more concerned about political aspects of choosing Canada. Future is not very certain, and getting a second headquaters in area having about 10% of the market may be not so wise. Unless they would consider brexit and UK-Canada relations as a potential to have UK-Canada as a separate region...

english si

Tech's a global business. If part(s) of the world build walls around them, then you don't want to be trapped inside those walls - you want to have presence inside them, for sure, but you also want to be outside them too.

Thus the best way to deal with a more insular US and a breakdown of NAFTA isn't to avoid Canada, but to go there.

roadman

QuoteTech's a global business.

Except that Amazon is principally a retailer, not a tech company.
"And ninety-five is the route you were on.  It was not the speed limit sign."  - Jim Croce (from Speedball Tucker)

"My life has been a tapestry
Of years of roads and highway signs" (with apologies to Carole King and Tom Rush)

kalvado

Quote from: english si on October 19, 2017, 10:51:18 AM
Tech's a global business. If part(s) of the world build walls around them, then you don't want to be trapped inside those walls - you want to have presence inside them, for sure, but you also want to be outside them too.

Thus the best way to deal with a more insular US and a breakdown of NAFTA isn't to avoid Canada, but to go there.
This is also about market size - 36M  population in Canada, 65M in UK, and 323M in US. How much that relates to headquarters location, associated cash flow and taxes is a whole different story..
Just saying that HQ2 in another country can become a wise step towards business diversification or a source of major headaches.... And how it would turn out - it would probably be apparent 20 years from now... Hindsight is 20/20 as usual.

kkt

If being near a national capital was important, they'd probably be in DC or its suburbs.  I expect Amazon will have lobbying organizations in every capital regardless.



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