Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

Started by NJRoadfan, June 17, 2010, 10:58:35 AM

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Ace10

Quote from: realjd on June 28, 2011, 03:51:11 PMI haven't seen a FYA installation here personally, but it's not like Florida to sign something like that. There are no "Left Turn Yield On Green (ball)" signs or "Left Turn Signal" signs or "Left On Green Arrow Only" signs here like there are in other states.

The only FYA signal I've seen so far is on County Road 535 in Orlando/Windermere/Winter Garden, just north of the Magic Kingdom and near the intersection of 535 and Reams Rd. The signal went active maybe a month ago. There is a sign in the median that states something along the lines of "LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING ARROW".

Now since this part of 535 is a county road, Orange county probably handled the construction and configuration of this traffic signal, so the state of Florida's policy may not be to put a sign next to the FYA, but Orange County probably will. With all due respect, I think the people down here who have no idea where they are going would benefit from knowing what the signal means, but I highly doubt anyone would get their head out of their ass long enough to read the sign and follow its instructions.


SignBridge

I'm surprised that any jurisdictions are posting signs saying to yield on FYA. First, because the whole purpose of the FYA concept was to eliminate the confusion that causes the need for such a sign. Second, I can't find any provision in the 2009 MUTCD even permitting such a sign. So it seems that any states or counties that do this are doing so on their own, outside the Manual.  But if anyone finds different, please correct me.

Also, contrary to what someone said in an earlier post, I don't believe the left turn yield on green ball sign is required when using a doghouse. It is optional and many places do not use it.

corco

Heh, that's crazy! Yeah. I'm 92% sure I've never seen that sign before.

Mr_Northside

Quote from: roadfro on June 29, 2011, 10:37:22 PM
Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 29, 2011, 12:21:22 PM
You'd think something as counter-intuitive as a FYA would require a sign explaining it's operation.  
Obviously, someone who lives in an area where these have become commonplace will no longer need it for themselves, but those from areas without them probably need some explanation.

The National research studies indicate the FYA is more intuitive than the old MUTCD 5-section display (doghouse, horizontal or vertical) and other methods of displaying PPLT operations, which is why FHWA adopted it as the standard PPLT display in the 2009 MUTCD. The research also indicated drivers understood the meaning fairly intuitively without the need for an explanatory sign...

In some ways that really amazes me, though the way a lot of people drive anyway, maybe it doesn't.
I'm not sure what all other states' drivers manuals include, but even the current PA (the online .pdf) one doesn't even mention a FYA (or I somehow missed it).  
While I obviously follow this stuff, and because of that, am now aware of what these things are...

If I hypothetically had never read anything about these, and encountered one for the first time WITHOUT a sign like posted above, my driver training (that flashing yellow = green, but with more caution; and an arrow meant I could turn without yielding to oncoming traffic) + logic would tell me to treat a FYA just like a green arrow, but to proceed with more caution... So I would definitely turn, even with oncoming traffic.  I suppose if I proceeded with more caution (since it would be flashing yellow instead of green) an accident might be avoided, or it wouldn't be as serious.

I suppose what really matters is that they get the job done without increasing accidents...  I just think they should all probably have signs like the one above for at least a couple of years to let potential unaware motorists know what the deal is.  And as a matter of opinion/preference, I'm still happy PA isn't using them for now.
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Scott5114

Norman in particular has gone the education route on the FYA. They even put in a pamphlet with the water bill about six months back explaining what the FYA means, and the local paper has run articles on it. I don't see how the sign hurts; it reinforces the message and explains it to people from out of town who didn't see those.
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roadfro

Quote from: SignBridge on June 30, 2011, 05:21:59 PM
I'm surprised that any jurisdictions are posting signs saying to yield on FYA. First, because the whole purpose of the FYA concept was to eliminate the confusion that causes the need for such a sign. Second, I can't find any provision in the 2009 MUTCD even permitting such a sign. So it seems that any states or counties that do this are doing so on their own, outside the Manual.  But if anyone finds different, please correct me.

Also, contrary to what someone said in an earlier post, I don't believe the left turn yield on green ball sign is required when using a doghouse. It is optional and many places do not use it.

No standard sign is called for the FYA operation. FYA signs fall into the category of "agencies may create word message signs for specific situations not covered by the manual" clause.  The FYA graphic on the sign in the picture Scott probably violates the MUTCD due to the symbol not being adopted by them (unless FHWA approved that through a state supplement, interpretation, or experimentation process)...but I like it.

As to the R10-12 left turn yield on green sign, I could've sworn that was a requirement. It's standard practice in Nevada, and I've never seen a 5-section signal display without the sign anywhere else I've been. Both the 2003 MUTCD Revision 2 and 2009 MUTCD list the sign as an option in chapter 2, and the 2009 version specifically states in chapter 4 that the sign is not required. The 2009 manual does show the R10-12 sign in a figure, however--some practicing engineers tend to take the MUTCD figures as gospel...
Roadfro - AARoads Pacific Southwest moderator since 2010, Nevada roadgeek since 1983.

froggie

QuoteIn upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare

In the rural areas, this is mostly the case.  But the Syracuse and Albany areas both have a large number of protected-only left turn signals.

Regarding signs with the FYA, here's what MnDOT uses (R10-X12).

PAHighways

Quote from: Mr_Northside on June 30, 2011, 11:33:23 PMI'm not sure what all other states' drivers manuals include, but even the current PA (the online .pdf) one doesn't even mention a FYA (or I somehow missed it).

Give them time.  They changed the entry for RAs from "although not used in Pennsylvania" when I was learning to drive to "although not common in Pennsylvania" in the recent editions.

agentsteel53

I just saw a flashing yellow in Nebraska.  I think it was Beatrice but didn't pay much attention exactly where.
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deathtopumpkins

Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.
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Scott5114

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.
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J N Winkler

Revive 755 has already previously noted that MoDOT has been installing flashing yellow arrows, but I can add some detail from a recent cull of MoDOT sign design sheets preparatory to archiving two years' worth of MoDOT construction plans.

MoDOT has been accompanying its FYA installations with a text-only sign reading "LEFT TURN YIELD ON FLASHING ARROW."  The design is the same from one plans set to another, but is always presented as a "special" sign, which means that MoDOT has not added the design to its Standard Sign Detail Manual or a standard plan sheet.
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jjakucyk

Still waiting for Ohio to get onboard with red arrows, let alone flashing yellow.  In unincorporated areas on state-maintained roads around Cincinnati they've started a very aggressive signal replacement program.  They've gone from all yellow signals to all black with backplates and the reflective yellow tape framing the backplate.  I assume this is in conjunction with LED upgrades as well.  But seriously, the state is still installing protected-only lefts with red balls, and in some cases with no explanatory sign. 

deathtopumpkins

#213
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2011, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.

Yup, it's fixed now, but that is NOT the sign Virginia uses. A quick search turned up a local news article from when the signals were installed, that includes an image of a sign, but I don't recall this being the one I saw when I checked out the signals in person. Unfortunately I was attempting to do video, however, so I do not have photos.

EDIT: I think this is close to what VDOT used, though ground-mounted in the median:


And I might be crazy, but I really think that the arrow lacked a black circle and had little "flash" lines around it.
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1995hoo

Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 05, 2011, 02:15:55 AM
Quote from: Scott5114 on July 04, 2011, 05:32:54 PM
Quote from: deathtopumpkins on July 04, 2011, 02:19:02 PM
Virginia is another state that uses signs for FYAs and, although for some reason I can't see the picture Scott posted (Chrome says the site is down), I'm willing to bet we use something similar because we use a graphic of a flashing yellow arrow.

It would help if the idiot that posted the photo actually funded his hosting account :P

Should be fixed now.

Yup, it's fixed now, but that is NOT the sign Virginia uses. A quick search turned up a local news article from when the signals were installed, that includes an image of a sign, but I don't recall this being the one I saw when I checked out the signals in person. Unfortunately I was attempting to do video, however, so I do not have photos.

EDIT: I think this is close to what VDOT used, though ground-mounted in the median:


And I might be crazy, but I really think that the arrow lacked a black circle and had little "flash" lines around it.

It may vary depending on location. The City of Alexandria uses the one shown in the link below, which has both the black circle and the little "flash" lines. You'll find this one outside the Harris Teeter on Duke Street (there is an identical sign going the other direction). But those signs are put up by the city, not by VDOT. Off the top of my head I do not recall seeing any installed by VDOT in my routine driving, but I haven't been on many Virginia roads outside of Northern Virginia in the past couple of months.

Notice this sign doesn't say "flashing yellow." I think using that word would be more effective, perhaps coupled with the lines.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.811757,-77.112404&spn=0.006379,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.811702,-77.112392&panoid=50APsGjItaLfvzMXxWe_IA&cbp=12,52.87,,0,-5.73
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vdeane

Quote from: froggie on July 04, 2011, 08:59:34 AM
QuoteIn upstate NY the doghouse is everywhere and fully protected left turns are rare

In the rural areas, this is mostly the case.  But the Syracuse and Albany areas both have a large number of protected-only left turn signals.

Regarding signs with the FYA, here's what MnDOT uses (R10-X12).
It's the case in the Rochester area as well (using doghouses and not fully protected turns).  But even with fully protected left turns, they use arrows rather than balls (the only ball type protected only left turn that I know of was removed), so there's no way a NY driver would interpret a ball as "I can turn left regardless of traffic").

I don't understand why fully protected left turns are used in many areas.  IMO, they should be outlawed unless an engineering study of the intersection shows they're required.  They typically just hold up traffic (including non-turning traffic due to the extra light phase) for no good reason.

Don't even get me started about the bad timing of the lights on NY 441 west of Penfield or NY 8 in Sidney.
Please note: All comments here represent my own personal opinion and do not reflect the official position of NYSDOT or its affiliates.

jjakucyk

Quote from: deanej on July 05, 2011, 07:11:22 PM
I don't understand why fully protected left turns are used in many areas.  IMO, they should be outlawed unless an engineering study of the intersection shows they're required.  They typically just hold up traffic (including non-turning traffic due to the extra light phase) for no good reason.

Multiple turn lanes, poor visibility, high pedestrian volume, possibly protected opposing right turns.  There's a lot of scenarios where they make sense, even when it's not obvious.  Some places do go way overboard with it though, California for instance. 

SignBridge

"Protected only" is useful in areas with high traffic volumes, where left turns are especially dangerous. Even more true with signalized divided highways with 3 or more thru lanes in each direction. Check out NYS Routes 24 and 27 in Nassau County, Long Island or Hawthorne Blvd. in Torrance, Calif. which has 4 thru lanes in each direction on a signalized, divided boulevard.

Yes California does go overboard in some cases, notably in the San Francisco suburbs of San Mateo County. I think every signalized intersection I saw there had "protected only" left turns, even where traffic was not especially heavy and would not even have turn arrows in many other places.   

Brandon

IMHO, protected only is stupid and wasteful in these times of high gas prices.  If you need to protect the left turn, adopt something sensible, IMHO, like the Michigan Left.
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SignBridge

Brandon, a little closed minded are we? (chuckle!) BTW, what is a Michigan left?

Re: the signs for flashing yellow arrow. Besides that we shouldn't need them if the meaning is supposed to be intuitive, the one that I like best is the photo from Norman, Oklahoma, with the lines indicating the flashing.

Also, I tried Googling "flashing yellow arrow signs" and found several Youtube videos of new FYA systems in operation. Does anyone know why:  when it goes from green arrow to steady yellow arrow, it then goes to steady red arrow for a second or two, before going to FYA?  

Ace10

SignBridge, as far as the light cycle, I think it goes from solid green, to solid yellow, to solid red, and then to flashing yellow to provide for clearance in preparation for opposing through traffic to get a green. If it went straight from solid green to flashing yellow, people making that left turn may not know to yield if opposing traffic hasn't gotten a chance to start moving through the intersection.

I'll have to park and see what the FYA intersection near my house does.

SignBridge

Astare, you missed my point. My question was: why the brief steady-red arrow between the steady-yellow and FYA? I watched a few more of those videos and different installations operate differently. Some have that brief steady-red and some do not. It seems to me it should go from steady-yellow to FYA, not steady-yellow to steady-red, to FYA.

Ace10

The only rationale I can come up with is to force the left turners in the intersection to clear the intersection and not allow any more into it so that the opposing traffic can be sure to go when it's green.

I realize this doesn't happen in doghouse signals, or five-head signals with a green and yellow arrow. But maybe with the novelty of the FYA and not a lot of people knowing what it means, having that one or two second red arrow to get them to stop, and then yield, may lead to fewer accidents.

Of course, it would make sense for a signal dedicated to a left turn lane to have a red phase after a solid yellow phase. That just goes with normal traffic light operation.

jjakucyk

I think AstareGod is probably right.  With doghouses or inline-5 signals, people keep turning well through the end of the yellow arrow, knowing that the next phase is going to be green balls.  That ignores the fact that for a brief moment they're turning left on a red ball with no other indicators, but the red ball was always there from the beginning, thus people probably figure, "so what?"  By making a 4-section FYA signal briefly turn red, rather than just being red but ignored while other things are going on, it's a better way to get turning vehicles to actually stop turning when they're supposed to.  I suspect it's also a case of proper sequencing, as there's no other situation where a signal would go from green to yellow to anything but red.  To go from green to yellow to flashing yellow would tend to miscue people, so including a short red is a way to sort of reset the signal phase, both literally and in people's minds too. 

deathtopumpkins

Quote from: 1995hoo on July 05, 2011, 07:53:05 AM
It may vary depending on location. The City of Alexandria uses the one shown in the link below, which has both the black circle and the little "flash" lines. You'll find this one outside the Harris Teeter on Duke Street (there is an identical sign going the other direction). But those signs are put up by the city, not by VDOT. Off the top of my head I do not recall seeing any installed by VDOT in my routine driving, but I haven't been on many Virginia roads outside of Northern Virginia in the past couple of months.

Notice this sign doesn't say "flashing yellow." I think using that word would be more effective, perhaps coupled with the lines.

http://maps.google.com/?ll=38.811757,-77.112404&spn=0.006379,0.016512&z=17&layer=c&cbll=38.811702,-77.112392&panoid=50APsGjItaLfvzMXxWe_IA&cbp=12,52.87,,0,-5.73

I'm sure it does vary, and likely the reason you haven't seen any is that the only VDOT-installed ones I know of are down here in Hampton Roads (US 60 WB around Busch Gardens). They might not have had the text "flashing yellow" either. I really need to get back up there and check them again.
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