Tailgater gets brake checked... and loses control of his car in the process

[wanderer2575]

Just because tailgating is wrong doesn't mean brake checking is right.

But tapping the brakes is harmless unless someone is tailgating.  The reverse is not true.  Thus, the creator of the danger is the tailgater, upon whom the burden of safe distance rests.

The tailgater is certainly not the person in the right here. But "tapping" your brakes puts you in a legally questionable bind: on one hand, you want the driver to back off to create a safe following distance, but in order to achieve that, you have to effectively scare them into backing off. That "scare" only exists because you made a sudden, dangerous movement. What if they aren't paying attention and hit you? Instead of playing chicken with them, speed up and get out of their way. Certainly it's not legal to exceed the limit, but it's far less dangerous than brake-checking, and is far less likely to incite road rage. Like I said before, I don't have run-ins with tailgaters because I speed up and get out of their way.

What if somebody's in front of you and you can't speed up?

[jakeroot]

Just because tailgating is wrong doesn't mean brake checking is right.

But tapping the brakes is harmless unless someone is tailgating.  The reverse is not true.  Thus, the creator of the danger is the tailgater, upon whom the burden of safe distance rests.

The tailgater is certainly not the person in the right here. But "tapping" your brakes puts you in a legally questionable bind: on one hand, you want the driver to back off to create a safe following distance, but in order to achieve that, you have to effectively scare them into backing off. That "scare" only exists because you made a sudden, dangerous movement. What if they aren't paying attention and hit you? Instead of playing chicken with them, speed up and get out of their way. Certainly it's not legal to exceed the limit, but it's far less dangerous than brake-checking, and is far less likely to incite road rage. Like I said before, I don't have run-ins with tailgaters because I speed up and get out of their way.

What if somebody's in front of you and you can't speed up?

Are you suggesting that the next viable option is brake-checking? If there's someone in front of you, I don't think there's much you can do. Following closely in heavy traffic is a cherished part of driving in America. Get over it. And if traffic isn't heavy, put on your blinker or something. Tell them you know they want by. Keep them calm.

Unless you're a hemorrhoid, get the fuck off my ass.  I don't care what lane I'm in or what is the speed limit.  Get.  Off.  My.  Ass.

Having said that, I'm generally not looking to deliberately piss off someone or incite reckless driving.  I don't camp out in the left lane.  But if I'm there because I'm passing someone or my exit (within the next mile or so) is on the left, and I happen to not be going fast enough for you, that's tough shit on you.  Life is full of disappointments.  I will take my foot off the gas and coast, and then tap my brakes if that doesn't get your attention.  I don't need you plowing into my back seat if someone cuts me off and I have to brake suddenly.

I actually had some a-hole pull this on me just a couple days ago when I was in the RIGHT lane -- freeway carriageway was two lanes wide with heavy traffic volume in both lanes, I was in the right lane which actually was moving a little faster than the left lane.  A-hole was right on my bumper.  I know it's not right, but that's a situation where I deliberately slowed way down (but not slamming on the brakes) to get the message across.

These are the people who should be handed tickets related to aggressive driving.  They are only concerned about the car behind them, but fail to see, or care about, the others in the vicinity.

When the car behind me will plow into my back seat if I should HAVE to stop suddenly, yeah, I'm concerned.  Sorry about that.

You mean like when you brake-check them and they crash into you? You're creating the situation that you're trying to avoid. And even if they don't hit you, you've probably pissed them off. Problem solved? Not likely.

[Pete from Boston]

Are you suggesting that the next viable option is brake-checking? If there's someone in front of you, I don't think there's much you can do. Following closely in heavy traffic is a cherished part of driving in America. Get over it. And if traffic isn't heavy, put on your blinker or something. Tell them you know they want by. Keep them calm.

When someone is tailgating me at 70 mph, they are not calm to begin with. They are engaging in the "cherished part of driving in America" that equates to waving a loaded pistol in my direction. 

And as has been noted plenty in this thread, one can flick one's brake lights without slowing down, without inducing a rear end crash.

[jemacedo9]

Interesting (and probably unrelated) timing:

Press Release by PennDOT today:  http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-6/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=349#.VvK8r3fD_mI

65 Police Departments Across Southeast Pennsylvania to Target Aggressive Drivers During Spring Mobilization

Municipal police departments from Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery counties will target motorists exhibiting aggressive-driving behaviors such as running red lights, speeding and tailgating.

If you encounter an aggressive driver, PennDOT offers these tips:
- Get out of their way and don't challenge them;
- Stay relaxed, avoid eye contact and ignore rude gestures; and
- Don't block the passing lane if you are driving slower than most of the traffic.

[jeffandnicole]

Municipal police departments from Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery counties will target normal, everyday behaviors such as running red lights, speeding and tailgating.

Fixed

[jakeroot]

Are you suggesting that the next viable option is brake-checking? If there's someone in front of you, I don't think there's much you can do. Following closely in heavy traffic is a cherished part of driving in America. Get over it. And if traffic isn't heavy, put on your blinker or something. Tell them you know they want by. Keep them calm.

When someone is tailgating me at 70 mph, they are not calm to begin with. They are engaging in the "cherished part of driving in America" that equates to waving a loaded pistol in my direction. 

The "cherished part of driving in America" is driving closely in heavy traffic, Pete, not at 70 mph (though perhaps that's true back East anyways).

That said, if they're not calm, why challenge them with a brake-check? How is that suddenly going to make them behave? My opposition to brake-checking stems from how often brake-checking not only fails to force the person to back-off, but actually gets them to follow closer.

And as has been noted plenty in this thread, one can flick one's brake lights without slowing down, without inducing a rear end crash.

It still has a worse safety record than my solution: speeding up and merging over, or on a single-lane road, pulling off into the shoulder.

[jemacedo9]

Municipal police departments from Bucks, Chester, Delaware and Montgomery counties will target normal, everyday behaviors such as running red lights, speeding and tailgating.

Fixed

HA!  It's funny 'cause it's true.........

[SP Cook]

IMHO, neither running a red light nor so-called speeding are "agressive driving".  Running a red light is stupid driving.  So called speeding can be anything, depending on to what degree the SL varies from the science based 85th %ile.

Agressive driving is things such as weaving in and out of lanes, especially passing on the right in a short space  before bobbing back left and setting up a lane change where the left driver has no option but to hit you or let you back in.   True tailgating can be a part of that.

None of these behaviors are generally the target of traffic cops, because these are subjective.

[Ned Weasel]

It still has a worse safety record than my solution: speeding up and merging over, or on a single-lane road, pulling off into the shoulder.

Aside from unwarranted, sudden braking, speeding up is the worst thing one can do when being tailgated.  Not only does it reinforce bad behavior, it could jeopardize one's driving record if one is exceeding the speed limit.  I don't think speed cameras really care why a person is speeding, and I'd imagine the discretion cops use varies from situation to situation.  If one is being tailgated and has through lanes to the right, the correct procedure is to drive the speed limit, if possible, until it is safe to move to the right lane, signal, and then move to the right lane.  If one is driving the speed limit in the far-right through lane, or the only through lane, there is no obligation to speed up or move over for anything other than emergency vehicles, except in special cases such as when turn-outs are implemented.

Furthermore, speeding up can worsen one's ability to react to situations ahead, which is an important ability to have when one is being tailgated, as the person doing the tailgating will not have much of it.

[kkt]

And as has been noted plenty in this thread, one can flick one's brake lights without slowing down, without inducing a rear end crash.

It still has a worse safety record than my solution: speeding up and merging over, or on a single-lane road, pulling off into the shoulder.

Exactly.  Tailgaters know they're tailgating.  Brake checking just brings on even more road rage than they already had.  It's not my job to make other drivers conform to my ideas of appropriate speed and distance, no matter how right I am.  Let them by as soon as it's safe to do so, and let them get into an accident with some other poor schmuck.

IMHO, neither running a red light nor so-called speeding are "agressive driving".  Running a red light is stupid driving.  So called speeding can be anything, depending on to what degree the SL varies from the science based 85th %ile.

Running a red light is aggressive, in my opinion.  It's deciding that saving a cycle of the light is more important than the other person's right to go, and daring them to run into you if they don't wait.

Speeding can be aggressive if there's a fair amount of other traffic on the road, so that you're weaving or tailgating in order to maintain your speed faster than other traffic.

[jeffandnicole]

And as has been noted plenty in this thread, one can flick one's brake lights without slowing down, without inducing a rear end crash.

It still has a worse safety record than my solution: speeding up and merging over, or on a single-lane road, pulling off into the shoulder.

Exactly.  Tailgaters know they're tailgating.  Brake checking just brings on even more road rage than they already had.  It's not my job to make other drivers conform to my ideas of appropriate speed and distance, no matter how right I am.  Let them by as soon as it's safe to do so, and let them get into an accident with some other poor schmuck.

IMHO, neither running a red light nor so-called speeding are "agressive driving".  Running a red light is stupid driving.  So called speeding can be anything, depending on to what degree the SL varies from the science based 85th %ile.

Running a red light is aggressive, in my opinion.  It's deciding that saving a cycle of the light is more important than the other person's right to go, and daring them to run into you if they don't wait.

Speeding can be aggressive if there's a fair amount of other traffic on the road, so that you're weaving or tailgating in order to maintain your speed faster than other traffic.

Running a red light well after the light has turned red is aggressive.  Running it because it just barely turned red, or because the yellow is too short, isn't really all that aggressive, and many times (especially with a short yellow), it's the fault of the DOT, not the driver.

[jeffandnicole]

Are you suggesting that the next viable option is brake-checking? If there's someone in front of you, I don't think there's much you can do. Following closely in heavy traffic is a cherished part of driving in America. Get over it. And if traffic isn't heavy, put on your blinker or something. Tell them you know they want by. Keep them calm.

When someone is tailgating me at 70 mph, they are not calm to begin with. They are engaging in the "cherished part of driving in America" that equates to waving a loaded pistol in my direction. 

The "cherished part of driving in America" is driving closely in heavy traffic, Pete, not at 70 mph (though perhaps that's true back East anyways).

I was going to say...traffic is just so heavy, you can have the entire highway moving at highway speeds of 70 mph and greater, but everyone would be considered 'tailgating' if you take into consideration what should be normal gaps between cars.

The biggest issues I see are those that aren't used to the rush hour traffic...or a slow vehicle going well below the speed limit.  In both cases you have people moving over towards the left that aren't used to the fast, heavy traffic without speeding up to what had been the flow of traffic.  Then think they're being tailgated, and start brake checking...which then compounds the problem for everyone.

In my carpool, I see them often times get upset at being tailgated, or having someone move into the gap between my driver and the car in front of us.  I will also see them do the exact same thing to others...but because they're doing it, it's OK.

[Jardine]

The tailgater got off very easy.  In a perfect world . . . .

[roadman]

It's simple, really.  Car A is tailgating car B.  Car B slams on their brakes, knowing that car A will be unable to stop in time.  Because the rear car is legally at fault in any rear end accident, car B then collects insurance money from car A.  Anything other than "car A hit car B" is theoretically "he said, she said", so in the absence of dash cams, it's a flawless plan.


I don't know if that's ever happened, but people backing into the cars behind them definitely does.  It's the reason why dash cams are so popular in Russia.

Not sure about other states, but in Massachusetts the driver who strikes the front vehicle in a rear-end collision is presumed to be at least 50% at fault, but not 100% at fault.  However, if a driver is backing up and collides with another vehicle, they are 100% at fault.

[mgk920]

I didn't rely on the video in the article. Instead, I went to the actual YouTube video.

I pinpointed it to near the Vandenbroek Road overpass, Interstate 41 in Little Chute, WI. The video must be new, since the mile markers signs on Google Street View still showed US Route 41 on them. 

As I mentioned upthread, that is on southbound (compass westbound) I-41 at County 'N', interchange 146, in Little Chute, WI, continuing westward to Vandenbroek Rd.  The FHWA laid hands upon US 41, conferring it as I-41, a couple of years ago, with their solemn blessing being administered last spring.  The signs went up over the mid to late summer of 2015.

The Village of Little Chute, WI shares a common border with the northeast side of my home town City of Appleton, WI.  The next interchange from that clip is the WI 441 Appleton beltline freeway, interchange 145.

From what I can tell, the clip was shot about two or three weeks ago.

Mike

[thenetwork]

This would be the one time you do NOT want to brake check in the left lane:

Surprised the cop let the van play Brake Check for that long...

[Brandon]

This would be the one time you do NOT want to brake check in the left lane:

Surprised the cop let the van play Brake Check for that long...

Cop shouldn't be tailgating either.  If there's a dashcam that can be reviewed by his supervisor, he should be reprimanded for it.

[Zeffy]

I got tailgated by a cop yesterday and when I got over to the right lane he blew by me, and the speed limit was 40 MPH. I'm pretty sure he was doing near 50. Then I witnessed him roll by a stop sign (but you know what would've happen if he saw someone else do that).

I'm pretty sure that if cops are going to uphold these rules they should have to obey them as well...Unless they are responding to an emergency.

[MisterSG1]

I got tailgated by a cop yesterday and when I got over to the right lane he blew by me, and the speed limit was 40 MPH. I'm pretty sure he was doing near 50. Then I witnessed him roll by a stop sign (but you know what would've happen if he saw someone else do that).

I'm pretty sure that if cops are going to uphold these rules they should have to obey them as well...Unless they are responding to an emergency.

And well, the cop was probably texting as well. The real question is, why should they obey them when nobody polices the police. I learned all of this when I saw what happened (on TV and Youtube videos) downtown Toronto back in June 2010, and I have had a totally different opinion on the cops since then.

To make a long a story short, just tell me how often you see a police officer go to jail when he is accused of doing something bad, or even at the very least fired. You'll have to do a lot of research to find that.

[SP Cook]

The cop, like all traffic cops, is scum.  Out random taxing motorists for something he does himself every day.  The lowest form of hypocrite on the earth.  And, probably the first to take cover when actualy police work needs done. 

[jeffandnicole]

So, for all you law abiding people out there, there's a law call Keep Right Except to Pass.

The cops can come right on up to you and stop you immediately.  Instead, they provide discretion.

In the van video, the van driver finally figured it out after 90 seconds (and that's just what we see on the video).  The cop is running video, gathering evidence.  No doubt the van driver gave the cop the middle finger when he passed by.  The cop may have been willing to ignore the infraction, but decided to stop the guy once he got the middle finger.  If the van driver wants to claim he didn't get a chance to move over, the video has it shown he had plenty of opportunity.  Maybe, the cop did hang back for a while, but we don't see that on the video.  Because people will start up their own video when they see something wrong...not when they see something right. 

In Zeffy's case, he was ignoring the Keep Right Except to Pass law too.  The cop didn't stop him.  Yet, he quickly criticizes the cop when the cop is going over the speed limit and rolls thru a stop sign, and that if he's going to uphold others to the law, he should do the same...except he didn't uphold the law in Zeffy's case.  And he's already admitted he speeds, but "only by 5 mph", which somehow makes it right.

Trust me - if the cops obeyed every law, then you would all be bitching at the cops going 25 in 25 zones when everyone could be doing 40, 55 in 55 zones when everyone could be doing 70, and a host of numerous other laws that in many cases you don't even know exist.

I know, I know...cop bashing is cool.  Sadly, the cops tries to give leniency as much as possible, and people still want to aggravate them.  There are reasons why cops turn on their lights, and don't.  Just like I'm sure in every one of your jobs, there's reasons why you do things the way you do them, even though to an outsider those rules seem stupid.

[SP Cook]

If fascism has a religion, it is worship of the police.

"leniency" ????  How is randomly taxing ANYONE for something you do yourself (and do yourself because you know it is a safe thing to do) lenient?  Ever?  It is not.  It is hypocracy.   

"cops obey every law".  Name another job (other than POTUS) where you don't expet people to obey the law?
  Of course cops should drive at the SL 100% of the time when not responding to an emergency.  Period.

And, yes we need cops.  And it increasingly evident that traffic cops and actual productive cops are two different things. 

[MikeTheActuary]

Not sure about other states, but in Massachusetts the driver who strikes the front vehicle in a rear-end collision is presumed to be at least 50% at fault, but not 100% at fault.  However, if a driver is backing up and collides with another vehicle, they are 100% at fault.

...unless the driver is backing up and collides with another vehicle that is also backing up.

(It happens more often than you might think.)

[kkt]

Sometimes there's an emergency that requires quick response, but no sirens or lights.  They sometimes have a better chance of catching a perpetrator if they don't announce they're coming from blocks away.

[Pete from Boston]

The cop, like all traffic cops, is scum.  Out random taxing motorists for something he does himself every day.  The lowest form of hypocrite on the earth.  And, probably the first to take cover when actualy police work needs done.

Adults really speak in these terms?