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710 Extension to 110 in San Pedro?

Started by The High Plains Traveler, May 25, 2015, 12:13:28 PM

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The High Plains Traveler

This appears to be a separate discussion from the other active 710-related threads, so I will keep it as its own topic.

There is an excellent Facebook group, "Freeways of Los Angeles", managed by Caltrans engineer Arturo Salazar. He posed a question for discussion, "Is 710 north of I-10 considered Interstate or California 710?" (This is not the question for this topic). In researching the question, I and other contributors determined that the only FHwA-approved Interstate segment currently is between CA-1 and I-10. AASHTO long ago approved extension of the Interstate south to Ocean Blvd. However, some interesting facts came out of the research (in-field observations, GSV review):

1. While the I-10 exit on 710 is Exit 22, the postmile marker at that location actually reads 26.nn.
2. Mile 0 for 710 would have once been Harbor Scenic Drive in Long Beach (the statutory south end), but now the postmile on the Seaside Freeway on Terminal Island where it intersects Route 47 is 3.2.  I got the impression from the commenter that this is a 710 PM. This additional mileage is consistent with the higher PM observed at I-10. Thus, the postmiles along the route have been revised.
3. The distance from the I-110/CA-47 interchange (west end of Vincent Thomas Bridge) to the Route 47 interchange with the Seaside Freeway is about 3.2 miles.

So, either California is going Arizona-style on some of its postmile readings, continuing the miles from the highway where the route begins rather than making that junction mile 0, or there may be a plan to designate 710 all the way over the Vincent Thomas Bridge. It actually makes sense from a route alignment perspective. It's also interesting that, apparently, Caltrans has erected 710 postmiles along a segment that has not yet been added to that route.

Has anyone seen anything to support this?

"Tongue-tied and twisted; just an earth-bound misfit, I."


sdmichael

All my Caltrans data points to a mere coincidence. Yes, Route 710 mileage doesn't hit zero where it should. However, the mileage for Route 47 does get close enough to "match" the Route 710 mileage where it ends at Route 47. I don't think there is much else to read into it. The Vincent Thomas Bridge certainly doesn't meet Interstate Standards either.

TheStranger

At one point, Route 47 between 110 and 710 was part of Route 7 (though likely never signed as such), from the 1963 route definitions that led into the 1964 great renumbering, to 1965:

http://cahighways.org/001-008.html#007

The postmiles reflecting that though, when the designation was changed so early on, would be really unusual though...

Chris Sampang

DTComposer

Quote from: TheStranger on May 26, 2015, 02:28:06 AM
At one point, Route 47 between 110 and 710 was part of Route 7 (though likely never signed as such), from the 1963 route definitions that led into the 1964 great renumbering, to 1965:

http://cahighways.org/001-008.html#007

The postmiles reflecting that though, when the designation was changed so early on, would be really unusual though...


This was my thought as well - the milepost sign at Willow Street is still from the CA-7 days and is 7.98 (no letter prefix), which is consistent with I-10 being at 26.nn. The most recent Caltrans bridge log (October 2014) confirms these numbers, but also has the annotation "000 is 680" in the postmiles column, which which is left over from the route beginning at CA-1.

I-10 as exit 22 would be consistent with the route beginning at the Terminal Island Freeway junction, although that should make Anaheim Street exit 3 and Shoreline Drive/Downtown Long Beach exit 2, and they're currently exits 1 A-D.

The High Plains Traveler

Using Google Maps "Directions" feature, from the CA-47/Route 710 junction to I-10 is 23.1 miles. That's close enough to have this location be the basis for I-10 being Exit 22. Add 3.2 miles and you get 26.3 miles, close to the postmile (26.47) at the Route 10/710 separation. And, from the aforementioned beginning point to the Anaheim St. overcrossing it's 3.0 miles; thus, the first exit numbers along 710 are likely erroneous. Either that, or the former mile 0 point is slightly east of the 47-710 intersection.

I didn't realize Route 7 was originally defined from Route 11.

As far as the Vincent Thomas Bridge not being interstate standard, the most southerly part of 710 could be CA-710, either up to the interchanges in downtown Long Beach or CA-1. It's possible that, if the tunnels north of I-10 are built, that part of the route would be state highway as well.
"Tongue-tied and twisted; just an earth-bound misfit, I."

admtrap

Well, Route 7 had three different termini/spurs though.  Equally possible is that the postmile zero is based on somewhere due south (the spur down towards the Queen Mary along Harbor Scenic Dr) or Shoreline Drive into Long Beach proper.  Those roads have all changed quite a bit.

Using the postmiles on Wikipedia against the exit numbers (postmiles minus exit number, ignoring letter suffixes), it appears they're all consistently about 5 miles off.  (The average "error" is 4.956 miles).   


NE2

Quote from: admtrap on May 27, 2015, 02:08:33 AM
Well, Route 7 had three different termini/spurs though.
[citation needed]
pre-1945 Florida route log

I accept and respect your identity as long as it's not dumb shit like "identifying as a vaccinated attack helicopter".

DTComposer

#7
Quote from: admtrap on May 27, 2015, 02:08:33 AM
Well, Route 7 had three different termini/spurs though.  Equally possible is that the postmile zero is based on somewhere due south (the spur down towards the Queen Mary along Harbor Scenic Dr) or Shoreline Drive into Long Beach proper.  Those roads have all changed quite a bit.

CA-7/I-710 has always been routed along Long Beach Freeway/Gerald Desmond Bridge/Seaside Boulevard/Vincent Thomas Bridge, although the terminus has moved to different points along that route.

Erroneous singing and map markings aside, the Queen Mary Spur (south Harbor Scenic Drive) and Downtown Long Beach Spur (Shoreline Drive) have never been part of CA-7 or I-710.

mrsman

Quote from: DTComposer on May 27, 2015, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: admtrap on May 27, 2015, 02:08:33 AM
Well, Route 7 had three different termini/spurs though.  Equally possible is that the postmile zero is based on somewhere due south (the spur down towards the Queen Mary along Harbor Scenic Dr) or Shoreline Drive into Long Beach proper.  Those roads have all changed quite a bit.

CA-7/I-710 has always been routed along Long Beach Freeway/Gerald Desmond Bridge/Seaside Boulevard/Vincent Thomas Bridge, although the terminus has moved to different points along that route.

Erroneous singing and map markings aside, the Queen Mary Spur (south Harbor Scenic Drive) and Downtown Long Beach Spur (Shoreline Drive) have never been part of CA-7 or I-710.

The harbor area routing definitely need some cleaning up.  Some consistency with the routings of 47, 103, and 710.

Here's how I would do it:


710: Long Beach Freeway, continuting down to Queen Mary (n-s)
47: From 110 to 710.  One east-west roadway.
103:  From 47 along the Terminal Island Fwy to Sepulveda, then continuing up Alameda to the 91 freeway (n-s)

Business 103:  Along Alameda and Henry Ford Avenue between Sepulveda and the Henry Ford ramps onto the Terminal Island Freeway (n-s)

I am not a fan of having both 47 and 710 changing their direction so dramatically.



DTComposer

Quote from: mrsman on May 31, 2015, 08:27:16 AM
Quote from: DTComposer on May 27, 2015, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: admtrap on May 27, 2015, 02:08:33 AM
Well, Route 7 had three different termini/spurs though.  Equally possible is that the postmile zero is based on somewhere due south (the spur down towards the Queen Mary along Harbor Scenic Dr) or Shoreline Drive into Long Beach proper.  Those roads have all changed quite a bit.

CA-7/I-710 has always been routed along Long Beach Freeway/Gerald Desmond Bridge/Seaside Boulevard/Vincent Thomas Bridge, although the terminus has moved to different points along that route.

Erroneous singing and map markings aside, the Queen Mary Spur (south Harbor Scenic Drive) and Downtown Long Beach Spur (Shoreline Drive) have never been part of CA-7 or I-710.

The harbor area routing definitely need some cleaning up.  Some consistency with the routings of 47, 103, and 710.

Here's how I would do it:


710: Long Beach Freeway, continuting down to Queen Mary (n-s)
47: From 110 to 710.  One east-west roadway.
103:  From 47 along the Terminal Island Fwy to Sepulveda, then continuing up Alameda to the 91 freeway (n-s)

Business 103:  Along Alameda and Henry Ford Avenue between Sepulveda and the Henry Ford ramps onto the Terminal Island Freeway (n-s)

I am not a fan of having both 47 and 710 changing their direction so dramatically.

Couple of things with this:

-Plans are on the table to convert the Terminal Island Freeway between PCH and Willow/Sepulveda to a surface street (this portion is already no longer in the state system), as well as upgrade the connection between the Heim Bridge (which is also being rebuilt) and Alameda Street. My guess is once those are done the state would give up the remainder of the TI Freeway, effectively eliminating CA-103, and CA-47 would be a consistent freeway/expressway from I-110 to CA-91.

-If I were to change the routing of I-710, it wouldn't be the Queen Mary spur - that's the least traveled of the three spurs. I'd put it on the downtown spur, although there are also plans to convert the freeway-like portion along the riverbank to a surface street portion.



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