Northern Virginia HOT Lanes

[1995hoo]

I've been on both a number of times.  IMO, SR 635 (Hume Rd) is more scenic than SR 647 (Crest Hill Rd...the "straight on the road from Marshall"), though SR 647 would be faster.

Thanks. We'll probably go that way, then, since timeliness isn't too important. Or I might skip both on the way down and instead use them on the way to Linden on the way home on Sunday (plan is to stop at Fox Meadow Winery to pick up a shipment they're holding for us).

[cpzilliacus]

I've been on both a number of times.  IMO, SR 635 (Hume Rd) is more scenic than SR 647 (Crest Hill Rd...the "straight on the road from Marshall"), though SR 647 would be faster.

Thanks. We'll probably go that way, then, since timeliness isn't too important. Or I might skip both on the way down and instead use them on the way to Linden on the way home on Sunday (plan is to stop at Fox Meadow Winery to pick up a shipment they're holding for us).

I have "done" Va. 688 (Leeds Manor Road) from U.S. 211 (Lee Highway) to Va. 55 and then immediately to I-66 at Exit 18 in Markham as part of my job (I had field staff doing work along U.S. 29/U.S. 15 at Remington and along I-66 at Markham). 

Va. 688 is a reasonably scenic road, but it does not parallel 647 and 635 (indeed, it intersects 647 and 635).

[1995hoo]

I've been on both a number of times.  IMO, SR 635 (Hume Rd) is more scenic than SR 647 (Crest Hill Rd...the "straight on the road from Marshall"), though SR 647 would be faster.

Thanks. We'll probably go that way, then, since timeliness isn't too important. Or I might skip both on the way down and instead use them on the way to Linden on the way home on Sunday (plan is to stop at Fox Meadow Winery to pick up a shipment they're holding for us).

I have "done" Va. 688 (Leeds Manor Road) from U.S. 211 (Lee Highway) to Va. 55 and then immediately to I-66 at Exit 18 in Markham as part of my job (I had field staff doing work along U.S. 29/U.S. 15 at Remington and along I-66 at Markham). 

Va. 688 is a reasonably scenic road, but it does not parallel 647 and 635 (indeed, it intersects 647 and 635).

I've used the segment from Route 55 north to Route 17 when I've wanted to go from Linden to Middleburg a couple of times. There's another winery along there (Naked Mountain) that a friend says is good, but I've never gotten around to stopping there. I have never used Leeds Manor south of Route 55, never had reason to do so. A couple of years ago we visited Narmada Winery near Amissville and then went to Linden Vineyards, so Leeds Manor would have worked, but my sat-nav sent us up Route 522 to Hume Road, then up Fiery Run Road, which was a narrow, twisty gravel road for part of the way. The latter segment was a nice drive to have done ONCE, if you know what I mean.

Going back to the purple lane markings, I rather doubt most drivers (and by most I mean "the vast majority of American drivers," not just local drivers or drivers from E-ZPass states) associate purple with electronic tolling or managed lanes. Outside of the E-ZPass states, there's no real reason why most people would associate purple with such lanes when you consider the logo colors employed by the various ETC brands around the country. Even in the E-ZPass states, most people with whom I've ridden as a passenger tend to look for the flashing yellow light (in the places where it's used to denote E-ZPass Only lanes), rather than looking for the purple sign, in part because you have the problem of places like the Dulles Toll Road where they have purple signs on just about every lane (and no flashing yellow light).

[cpzilliacus]

Going back to the purple lane markings, I rather doubt most drivers (and by most I mean "the vast majority of American drivers," not just local drivers or drivers from E-ZPass states) associate purple with electronic tolling or managed lanes. Outside of the E-ZPass states, there's no real reason why most people would associate purple with such lanes when you consider the logo colors employed by the various ETC brands around the country. Even in the E-ZPass states, most people with whom I've ridden as a passenger tend to look for the flashing yellow light (in the places where it's used to denote E-ZPass Only lanes), rather than looking for the purple sign, in part because you have the problem of places like the Dulles Toll Road where they have purple signs on just about every lane (and no flashing yellow light).

MdTA has (somewhat recently) put in yellow flashers over the E-ZPass only lanes at at least some of its plazas, consistent with New Jersey and Delaware.

But purple is the standard MUTCD color for all transponder-based toll collection, across the entire nation, not just in E-ZPass territory.

[1995hoo]

Sure, but the MUTCD saying it doesn't mean a damn thing as to whether drivers are aware of it (much less whether it's been adopted anywhere!).

[froggie]

It can be argued that drivers are unaware because it's still a relatively new concept.  But with the increasing proliferation of toll roads, toll lanes, and ETC, something had to be done in an attempt to standardize signage and markings...

[1995hoo]

We are in Little Washington. Used Hume Road. Thanks for the tip, very interesting drive. Felt like a different world.

Edited on Sunday after getting home to follow up: Yesterday we bailed off I-66 at Nutley Street (actually at the westbound ramp marked for the Metro stop) due to stopped traffic and I took Blake Lane/Jermantown Road to Route 29 on the west side of Fairfax City. Followed that out through the battlefield to pick up I-66 at Gainesville, then west to Marshall. Initially I missed the turn for Crest Hill Road, which wasn't well marked and I didn't have the destination loaded into the sat-nav, but I realized the mistake quite quickly and turned around in the driveway of what the sign said is a Buddhist temple south of Marshall. (It was not visible from the road and I chose not to explore.) Followed Crest Hill down to Hume Road and made the right turn. Both were nice roads, the type of roads on which 20 years ago I'd have been the idiot going inappropriately fast and enjoying the hills and twists but on which I now just like to take it easy and look at the scenery. Hume Road requires a bit of concentration west of its namesake village due to the blind curves and the risk of someone coming the other way cutting the corners too tightly. When we reached the end of the road, I turned south on Route 522 to Flint Hill (cops were out enforcing the 25-mph speed limit) and I made a right on Fodderstack Road, which I'd seen on a map. It's the back road down to Washington instead of taking 522 on down to Route 211 and then turning on US-211 Business. Nice way to go as well. It's such a short trip from Fairfax County, yet it feels like being in a different world altogether. The one downside about taking Fodderstack is that you come up from the back side of the Inn at Little Washington. There's something cool about arriving on Middle Street and coming around the curve and bam, there's the Inn right there in front of you (with no big sign or other overt marking, just a small sign next to the valet-parking dropoff spot).

Coming home we changed our plans took the direct route, up 211 to Warrenton and then up 29/66/Beltway. Skipped the winery and Leeds Manor Road.

Anyway, to return this to the thread topic, I didn't find the purple stripes on the Inner Loop near the Robinson Terminal to be especially noticeable even at about 11:30 AM on a Saturday. Of course I saw them, but then of course I knew they were there and was specifically looking for them. I really doubt they'd be visible at night (as Mapmikey noted). They start roughly beneath the first of the toll-rate signs at the same point where the first E-ZPass logo pavement marking appears. What I thought was maybe a bit odd is that the purple stripes don't go all the way up to where the pylons begin. They end where the right-side short skip lines end. I thought it might have made sense to run them all the way to the point where the lanes separate.

Others may disagree on them being noticeable, and I must note the ones near the Robinson Terminal were the only ones I saw. On the way home today there was just enough traffic on the Outer Loop that I didn't really get the chance to look for similar markings along the left side (especially since I was over towards the right). The markings seen in the Twitter picture linked further up the thread are definitely clearer to my eye than the ones I saw yesterday. So perhaps their clarity varies in different locations.

[1995hoo]

So we were southbound in the I-95 HO/T lanes early this afternoon heading out to Linden (why that route? Wanted to avoid PGA traffic near Gainesville). I planned to exit at either the truck stop slip ramp to take Route 234 or the Quantico flyover to take Route 619, whichever posed less of a traffic backup in the mainline (the latter option won).

Approaching the flyover near Potomac Mills ("95-DALE") around 1:00 PM, the toll rates were posted as $1.00 to Dumfries, $2.00 to Quantico, and $13.95 to the lanes' southern end. Wow! It makes me wonder why anyone would pay that toll. I think I'd take the Quantico flyover, exit immediately onto westbound Route 619 since the flyover becomes the exit lane, then cut a U-turn and head over to Route 1. (If you don't mind illegally driving on the shoulder you could go eastbound on 619, but I don't like doing that.) The express lane VMS was warning people to exit at Quantico but it looked to me like most people ahead of us didn't do so. What I don't know, since they were ahead of us and I was only going 70 mph, was whether they were HOVs who needn't worry about the toll. If it's free that might change your thought process on whether to stay in there.

[cpzilliacus]

This did not get much attention when Virginia Gov. Terry McAuliffe was on WTOP Radio last week, but it seems relevant to our topic here.

[Emphasis added below.]

But the governor also wants to add tolled express lanes to river crossings into D.C. and Maryland. McAuliffe said state transportation officials are negotiating to extend the 395 Express Lanes and address congestion as commuters enter the District.

Today the tolled lanes stop before the Arlington County line forcing cars that don't meet HOV restrictions back into the main lanes.

"We need to fix this problem because it's creating tremendous amount of congestion."

[cpzilliacus]

So we were southbound in the I-95 HO/T lanes early this afternoon heading out to Linden (why that route? Wanted to avoid PGA traffic near Gainesville). I planned to exit at either the truck stop slip ramp to take Route 234 or the Quantico flyover to take Route 619, whichever posed less of a traffic backup in the mainline (the latter option won).

Approaching the flyover near Potomac Mills ("95-DALE") around 1:00 PM, the toll rates were posted as $1.00 to Dumfries, $2.00 to Quantico, and $13.95 to the lanes' southern end. Wow! It makes me wonder why anyone would pay that toll. I think I'd take the Quantico flyover, exit immediately onto westbound Route 619 since the flyover becomes the exit lane, then cut a U-turn and head over to Route 1. (If you don't mind illegally driving on the shoulder you could go eastbound on 619, but I don't like doing that.) The express lane VMS was warning people to exit at Quantico but it looked to me like most people ahead of us didn't do so. What I don't know, since they were ahead of us and I was only going 70 mph, was whether they were HOVs who needn't worry about the toll. If it's free that might change your thought process on whether to stay in there.

As I think you know, the original plan for the Express Lanes, before Arlington County fired suit against the Commonwealth and against the Federal Highway Administration, was for the tolling of the I-395 Express Lanes to go as far north as the Pentagon, or maybe as far north as the Virginia shoreline of the Potomac River (both were discussed).  Now that D.C. has officially said it is interested in tolling its part of the express lanes across the river, it makes the objections raised by Arlington County look pretty foolish, and the main source of those objections is no longer on the Arlington County Board anyway.

If Transurban is granted a contract to convert the rest of the corridor to HOV/Toll lanes  north from Turkeycock Run to the Potomac River, then IMO they should be required to extend the lanes at least as far south as U.S. 17 (Exit 133, Warrenton Road), and ideally to  U.S. 1/U.S. 17 at Massaponax (Exit 126).

[Mapmikey]

So we were southbound in the I-95 HO/T lanes early this afternoon heading out to Linden (why that route? Wanted to avoid PGA traffic near Gainesville). I planned to exit at either the truck stop slip ramp to take Route 234 or the Quantico flyover to take Route 619, whichever posed less of a traffic backup in the mainline (the latter option won).

Approaching the flyover near Potomac Mills ("95-DALE") around 1:00 PM, the toll rates were posted as $1.00 to Dumfries, $2.00 to Quantico, and $13.95 to the lanes' southern end. Wow! It makes me wonder why anyone would pay that toll. I think I'd take the Quantico flyover, exit immediately onto westbound Route 619 since the flyover becomes the exit lane, then cut a U-turn and head over to Route 1. (If you don't mind illegally driving on the shoulder you could go eastbound on 619, but I don't like doing that.) The express lane VMS was warning people to exit at Quantico but it looked to me like most people ahead of us didn't do so. What I don't know, since they were ahead of us and I was only going 70 mph, was whether they were HOVs who needn't worry about the toll. If it's free that might change your thought process on whether to stay in there.

The disparity on the toll rates between Quantico and Garrisonville is always like this whenever the toll starts to go up.  On Mondays the toll to Garrisonville was under $6 and on Thursday it was $18 but the Quantico toll is always around $2 or so.  Sometimes the toll can be $15 to the end and it is still 15 minutes faster to use the lanes.  If the VMS signs say the delays begin at a location equivalent to MM 148, it is still faster to stay in the HOT lanes but not by much.  Anything further back is about a wash and then if the lanes are backed up to close to the SR 619 flyover it becomes noticeably faster to go to the main lanes. 

I am still learning the nuances of whether staying or bailing os better, and whether the toll is worth it...

Mike

[1995hoo]

So we were southbound in the I-95 HO/T lanes early this afternoon heading out to Linden (why that route? Wanted to avoid PGA traffic near Gainesville). I planned to exit at either the truck stop slip ramp to take Route 234 or the Quantico flyover to take Route 619, whichever posed less of a traffic backup in the mainline (the latter option won).

Approaching the flyover near Potomac Mills ("95-DALE") around 1:00 PM, the toll rates were posted as $1.00 to Dumfries, $2.00 to Quantico, and $13.95 to the lanes' southern end. Wow! It makes me wonder why anyone would pay that toll. I think I'd take the Quantico flyover, exit immediately onto westbound Route 619 since the flyover becomes the exit lane, then cut a U-turn and head over to Route 1. (If you don't mind illegally driving on the shoulder you could go eastbound on 619, but I don't like doing that.) The express lane VMS was warning people to exit at Quantico but it looked to me like most people ahead of us didn't do so. What I don't know, since they were ahead of us and I was only going 70 mph, was whether they were HOVs who needn't worry about the toll. If it's free that might change your thought process on whether to stay in there.

As I think you know, the original plan for the Express Lanes, before Arlington County fired suit against the Commonwealth and against the Federal Highway Administration, was for the tolling of the I-395 Express Lanes to go as far north as the Pentagon, or maybe as far north as the Virginia shoreline of the Potomac River (both were discussed).  Now that D.C. has officially said it is interested in tolling its part of the express lanes across the river, it makes the objections raised by Arlington County look pretty foolish, and the main source of those objections is no longer on the Arlington County Board anyway.

If Transurban is granted a contract to convert the rest of the corridor to HOV/Toll lanes  north from Turkeycock Run to the Potomac River, then IMO they should be required to extend the lanes at least as far south as U.S. 17 (Exit 133, Warrenton Road), and ideally to  U.S. 1/U.S. 17 at Massaponax (Exit 126).

Yes, of course I remember. It's one of the reasons I thought the residents of Landmark Mews (the large and expensive townhouses just off I-395 near Turkeycock) were directing their ire at the wrong outfit when they were protesting the new exit flyover from the reversible lanes to the northbound mainline at that location. They were angry at VDOT instead of Arlington–although, in fairness, I think a northbound exit ramp should have been built there back when the reversible lanes were extended south in the 1990s, so perhaps Arlington shouldn't carry all the blame for that one.

[cpzilliacus]

Yes, of course I remember. It's one of the reasons I thought the residents of Landmark Mews (the large and expensive townhouses just off I-395 near Turkeycock) were directing their ire at the wrong outfit when they were protesting the new exit flyover from the reversible lanes to the northbound mainline at that location. They were angry at VDOT instead of Arlington–although, in fairness, I think a northbound exit ramp should have been built there back when the reversible lanes were extended south in the 1990s, so perhaps Arlington shouldn't carry all the blame for that one.

I agree that their anger was misdirected.

But as was pointed out some time ago, the ramps at Turkeycock Run were little changed since the 1970's, when the I-95 Busway (as the HOV roadway was then called) was built, and terminated a short distance south of Va. 644.

The ramp to enter the managed lanes roadway from the southbound conventional lanes was pretty easy to build, so it was there from the start, I think so that buses which had stopped at Landmark Center (as many of the I-95 Busway runs did, especially in the off-peaks).

The other ramps (entering the managed roadway from the northbound conventional lanes and exiting the managed roadway and entering the southbound conventional lanes) were needed for express bus service to the Pentagon and to downtown Washington (and the location at Turkeycock Run was not perfect, as buses running on Va. 236 and wanting to enter the managed lanes had to fight their way up a very congested part of I-95 and later I-395 to Seminary Road).

So the objection by Arlington County got users on I-395 a way to exit when the managed lanes are pointed north.

[cpzilliacus]

So we were southbound in the I-95 HO/T lanes early this afternoon heading out to Linden (why that route? Wanted to avoid PGA traffic near Gainesville). I planned to exit at either the truck stop slip ramp to take Route 234 or the Quantico flyover to take Route 619, whichever posed less of a traffic backup in the mainline (the latter option won).

Approaching the flyover near Potomac Mills ("95-DALE") around 1:00 PM, the toll rates were posted as $1.00 to Dumfries, $2.00 to Quantico, and $13.95 to the lanes' southern end. Wow! It makes me wonder why anyone would pay that toll. I think I'd take the Quantico flyover, exit immediately onto westbound Route 619 since the flyover becomes the exit lane, then cut a U-turn and head over to Route 1. (If you don't mind illegally driving on the shoulder you could go eastbound on 619, but I don't like doing that.) The express lane VMS was warning people to exit at Quantico but it looked to me like most people ahead of us didn't do so. What I don't know, since they were ahead of us and I was only going 70 mph, was whether they were HOVs who needn't worry about the toll. If it's free that might change your thought process on whether to stay in there.

The disparity on the toll rates between Quantico and Garrisonville is always like this whenever the toll starts to go up.  On Mondays the toll to Garrisonville was under $6 and on Thursday it was $18 but the Quantico toll is always around $2 or so.  Sometimes the toll can be $15 to the end and it is still 15 minutes faster to use the lanes.  If the VMS signs say the delays begin at a location equivalent to MM 148, it is still faster to stay in the HOT lanes but not by much.  Anything further back is about a wash and then if the lanes are backed up to close to the SR 619 flyover it becomes noticeably faster to go to the main lanes. 

I am still learning the nuances of whether staying or bailing os better, and whether the toll is worth it...

Transurban has to jack-up the toll high enough to provide free-flow service through that one-lane ramp where the 95 Express Lanes currently come to an end.

Only way to do that is with an excessive price.

[Mapmikey]

Transurban has to jack-up the toll high enough to provide free-flow service through that one-lane ramp where the 95 Express Lanes currently come to an end.

Only way to do that is with an excessive price.

Then it's not high enough...2 days a week the HOT lanes back up more than a mile from where the 2 lanes merge to one in advance of the end of the HOT lanes.  Regularly it is 2 miles toward the end of the week.

Mike

[cpzilliacus]

Transurban has to jack-up the toll high enough to provide free-flow service through that one-lane ramp where the 95 Express Lanes currently come to an end.

Only way to do that is with an excessive price.

Then it's not high enough...2 days a week the HOT lanes back up more than a mile from where the 2 lanes merge to one in advance of the end of the HOT lanes.  Regularly it is 2 miles toward the end of the week.

You should complain to VDOT.  If I understand it correctly, those lanes are supposed to be free-flow all the time.  No matter how high the tolls have to go.

[Rothman]

Transurban has to jack-up the toll high enough to provide free-flow service through that one-lane ramp where the 95 Express Lanes currently come to an end.

Only way to do that is with an excessive price.

Then it's not high enough...2 days a week the HOT lanes back up more than a mile from where the 2 lanes merge to one in advance of the end of the HOT lanes.  Regularly it is 2 miles toward the end of the week.

You should complain to VDOT.  If I understand it correctly, those lanes are supposed to be free-flow all the time.  No matter how high the tolls have to go.

What exactly constrains them to provide free-flowing lanes?

[jeffandnicole]

I believe as per the agreement, the lanes are supposed to move at 45 mph or greater. 

Maybe what they need to do is provide some sort of incentive to exit the HOT lanes into the general purpose lanes at an earlier point in time to reduce the congestion at the end of the HOT lanes.

Or...instead of dicking around with a 1 lane flyover ramp, just left-merge the lanes into the general purpose lanes and gently taper them down beyond the Garrisonville Rd interchange.

[1995hoo]

Seems like there's a good reason to provide a left-side merge provided it's barrier-separated to ensure people using it have no opportunity to try to cut across all lanes to access Exit 143. If there were no barrier, it'd pretty much be a given people would try to avoid the line for the flyover and then cut across no matter how much traffic it'd hold up.

[jeffandnicole]

If there was a left-sided merge, there would be no reason for through traffic to use the slower flyover ramp. That ramp could be signed for traffic wanting to use exit 143.

A similar setup can be found in Delaware on 495 South, merging into 95 near 141.

[Mapmikey]

I believe as per the agreement, the lanes are supposed to move at 45 mph or greater. 

Maybe what they need to do is provide some sort of incentive to exit the HOT lanes into the general purpose lanes at an earlier point in time to reduce the congestion at the end of the HOT lanes.

Or...instead of dicking around with a 1 lane flyover ramp, just left-merge the lanes into the general purpose lanes and gently taper them down beyond the Garrisonville Rd interchange.

In a way they kinda already do.  The disparity in tolls between the last two exits can be as much as $14-16.

They also explicitly put on their VMS to "Exit now to avoid delays" whenever the HOT lanes are backed up more than 2-3 miles.

if the 45 mph requirement is over the entire distance of the lanes, that would allow for quite a long queue and still comply...if you were averaging 70 mph for the first 20 miles you only have to average 23 mph over the last 9 miles to get a 29-mile average of 45 mph.

Mike

[Rothman]

I believe as per the agreement, the lanes are supposed to move at 45 mph or greater. 

Agreement between whom?

[iBallasticwolf2]

I believe as per the agreement, the lanes are supposed to move at 45 mph or greater. 

Agreement between whom?

Trans-Urban and VDOT?

[cpzilliacus]

I believe as per the agreement, the lanes are supposed to move at 45 mph or greater. 

Agreement between whom?

The concession agreement (.pdf) between the Commonwealth of Virginia (in the form of VDOT) and Transurban.  See this on physical page 17 (emphasis added):

(a) The  Concessionaire  will  impose  congestion  pricing  on  the  HOT  Lanes,  which may include dynamic tolling with potential toll rate changes at frequent intervals and there will be  no  restrictions  on  toll  rates,  except  as  set  forth  in  this  Article  5.    The  Concessionaire's congestion pricing methodology:

(i) will  not  be  inconsistent  with  the  Department's  plans  and  programs  for highway system management of the overall transportation network in Northern Virginia;

(ii) when implemented, will assure that the Project will not become a federal Degraded  Facility (as   defined  in  23  U.S.C.  §166),  as  set  forth  in  the  Technical Requirements; and

[02 Park Ave]

Transurban has to jack-up the toll high enough to provide free-flow service through that one-lane ramp where the 95 Express Lanes currently come to an end.

Only way to do that is with an excessive price.

How do they achieve free-flow service when the lanes are functioning in the northbound direction?