Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement Tunnel

[Bruce]

An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

[Rothman]

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

How would you add grade-separated transit?

[Bruce]

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

How would you add grade-separated transit?

By handing over some money to Sound Transit to build their proposed light rail extensions to Ballard and West Seattle (detailed list here) that is going on the ballot in November anyway. In the interim, I'd extend bus-only lanes on 15th Avenue (towards Ballard) and the West Seattle Bridge/SR 99 (towards West Seattle) and boost RapidRide frequencies on those corridors.

Losing the viaduct for a few years while it's demolished and replaced by a surface boulevard (which everyone isn't too happy about...especially the pedestrian and bike groups, since the Port is demanding an 8-lane highway near the ferry terminals) will be painful, but it's a lot better than gambling lives on the viaduct when the next earthquake comes.

[roadfro]

More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha
The Seattle Times, 1/14/2016

Gov. Jay Inslee ordered Highway 99 tunnel contractors Thursday to suspend drilling the deep-bore tunnel along the Seattle waterfront, until a sinkhole that formed this week is fully investigated.

Even though contractors filled the hole, the ground above the tunnel-boring machine Bertha is continuing to sink, according to the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT).

The problem is limited to the area immediately around the machine, and has not spread to the nearby Alaskan Way Viaduct, said WSDOT spokeswoman Laura Newborn.

But in calling for the work to stop, the governor aired the worry shared by many citizens – that if Seattle Tunnel Partners (STP) continues to dig too much soil as Bertha proceeds north, the viaduct and downtown buildings could be threatened.

[Bruce]

More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha

Already reported: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12173.msg2119725#msg2119725

[roadfro]

More trouble...

Inslee orders tunnel dig halted as soil sinks above Bertha

Already reported: https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=12173.msg2119725#msg2119725

Hmm... Must've put that post out of my mind...

[Kacie Jane]

An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

[jakeroot]

An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

I remember reading somewhere that the Alaskan Way Viaduct is an important link for the Port of Seattle to points north, and vice-versa, and that a tunnel would keep heavy trucks off of the surface street. Is this true?

[Bruce]

An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

That is the multi-billion dollar question: how to serve the different nodes of West Seattle effectively. Personally, I'd prefer a short light rail line up to Alaska Junction and then several branching BRT routes (with actual BRT features, e.g. exclusive lane, signal priority, limited stops, pre-boarding payment) to serve different areas of the peninsula. Perhaps ST4 could then extend the light rail line further south if demand is high enough on those bus lines.

[Kacie Jane]

Jake, you're not wrong. I wouldn't call the viaduct "unimportant" for Port traffic.  But I wouldn't call it "absolutely essential" either.  Especially because the Port might actually be served better by a good surface solution than the tunnel, since (1) it would allow hazmats, and (2) it would allow access to Western/Elliot/15th, not just Aurora.

[jakeroot]

Jake, you're not wrong. I wouldn't call the viaduct "unimportant" for Port traffic.  But I wouldn't call it "absolutely essential" either.  Especially because the Port might actually be served better by a good surface solution than the tunnel, since (1) it would allow hazmats, and (2) it would allow access to Western/Elliot/15th, not just Aurora.

Very good points. My only remaining concern is a rather selfish one: will the waterfront be as inviting with all the semi trucks? I suppose it won't be a mess of trucks, but certainly a noticeable amount more so than if the tunnel existed.

[kkt]

An I-5 lid would be a great addition to the eventual rebuilding of that freeway in the next 50 or so years.

There is no way anyone would want to have kept or rebuilt the viaduct. The tunnel will be borderline useless to anyone who used the viaduct anyway, so there's no point in delaying the inevitable closure and demolition.

Disclaimer: I'm part of the "tear down the viaduct yesterday, scrap Bertha and add more grade-separated transit" school of thought here.

To be honest, I'm kind of with you on your disclaimer at this point, though I wasn't until relatively recently.  The only group of people that the viaduct is absolutely essential for is commuters from West Seattle, and that could be solved with significant transit investments.  The biggest problem however is that West Seattle is so spread out that it's tough to serve with transit (particularly mass rapid transit, i.e. light rail) efficiently.

I remember reading somewhere that the Alaskan Way Viaduct is an important link for the Port of Seattle to points north, and vice-versa, and that a tunnel would keep heavy trucks off of the surface street. Is this true?

Yes, at least I don't know the traffic count but a lot of trucks go to and from the ship terminals on Harbor Island and if they're heading north of Seattle it's easier for them to get on the Viaduct north than I-5.  If the only option was the Alaskan Way surface street, they'd probably get on I-5 instead, and add to the already-horrible bottleneck at the Convention Center.

[The Ghostbuster]

Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.

[jakeroot]

Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.

The tunnel is getting completed. There's no going back. It'd be way too expensive to turn around and bail. Keep in mind that this project is about more than just the tunnel.

[Kacie Jane]

Will the tunnel ever be completed? They keep running into problems. I wonder if the whole project might eventually be scrapped, and the tunnel will remain uncompleted.

The tunnel is getting completed. There's no going back. It'd be way too expensive to turn around and bail.

I know I said I agreed with Bruce two days ago.  But I think you're mostly right here as well.  Sort of.

I think your first sentence is true...almost certainly... probably.  It remains true as long as your last sentence as true.  Bailing on the project would cost a lot of money.  But delays, repairs, crashing into piers, and who knows what else also cost a lot of money.  At some point, there's a break even point.  In hindsight, I agree with Bruce and I would have rather this project not be started.  But given where we are, I agree with you that we're probably be better off seeing it to completion, and I hope we never see that break even point.  But I don't think your second sentence is true, that there's no turning back ever.

[jakeroot]

The Washington State Senate voted not to confirm the Secretary for Transportation, Lynn Peterson (head of WSDOT) today, which basically means she's on her way out.

I think the governor could veto the dismissal but I doubt he will, even though he chose her to begin with Looks like the governor isn't pleased, but it doesn't look like there's much he can do.

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/05/state-senate-fires-washingtons-transportation-secretary/79899292/

My guess is that this is tied to the tunnel and the 405 ETL, among other things.

[Alps]

The Washington State Senate voted not to confirm the Secretary for Transportation, Lynn Peterson (head of WSDOT) today, which basically means she's on her way out.

I think the governor could veto the dismissal but I doubt he will, even though he chose her to begin with Looks like the governor isn't pleased, but it doesn't look like there's much he can do.

http://www.king5.com/story/news/politics/state/2016/02/05/state-senate-fires-washingtons-transportation-secretary/79899292/

My guess is that this is tied to the tunnel and the 405 ETL, among other things.

The tunnel isn't her fault, but she's going to bear the cost of it.

[kkt]

Taking the head job means taking responsibility, even if she didn't actually initiate the projects.

[Tarkus]

Watch her end up in Oregon.

[jakeroot]

Watch her end up in Oregon.

Funny you should mention that. She used to be the transportation adviser to Kitzhaber before Inslee appointed her head of Transportation in Washington.

[Tarkus]

She's extremely well-connected down here--before her advisory role, she was a Clackamas County commissioner and was toying with a run for governor in 2010.  I suspect if Brown is re-elected, there's about 100% chance she'll be in charge of another DOT.  Matt Garrett dates all the way back to the Kulongoski days.

[mcarling]

Bertha has reportedly reached a planned maintenance chamber and will be stopped for about a month.

[The Ghostbuster]

If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

[Bruce]

If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

[707]

If this keeps up, it should be named the Stop-And-Go Tunnel.

We already have a Stop-And-Go Tunnel. It's the one the buses and trains use downtown.

Well, now you have another.