Has the flashing yellow left turn signal made it to your state?

[jakeroot]

Ditto.  I find red arrows on a green ball to be extremely annoying.

Like when an FYA display goes protected-only? Said scenario is incredibly uncommon. Of the hundred or so FYAs in Federal Way, WA (sorry I keep bringing this city up, but I know a lot about it), only maybe three or four have any sort of TOD setting.

My preference for FYAs is rooted in my ability to turn left when the through traffic cannot. In theory, there's more "green time" with FYAs. Here's a video of me turning left at a lagging FYA. Although I was not able to turn until well after the through traffic received its green, at least I was able to pull forward and prepare, which you can't do with a doghouse (at least when it's red).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_idz1QzWQtg

[Ace10]

In Washington County, Oregon, the FYA on NB NW 185th Ave onto WB Baseline Rd never seems to come on during the day. I've seen the FYA on maybe once, and I go to that intersection at least twice a week. The intersection is near the MAX Light Rail tracks and the signal is pre-empted, but I've seen other pre-empted signals in the area with a FYA for left-turning traffic facing the rail crossing but turning onto the cross-street (parallel to the tracks) while through traffic facing the crossing gets a red light. The protected left phase is programmed to lag for both the NB and SB directions.

One time, in the range of about 5 minutes, three separate trains tripped the signal and I had to sit through three full traffic light cycles never getting a green or flashing yellow arrow. The guy in front of me decided that was too long to wait and turned against the red light. I don't blame him. Luckily a fourth train didn't come by and we got a green arrow.

[MASTERNC]

Protected-only is very useful for double left turns for many reasons. Similarly, if visibility is limited or the turn is across more than two lanes of traffic, protected-only should be considered for safety reasons. Very few intersections anywhere have a doghouse for turns across 3+ lanes. An FYA is the best of both worlds, as a protected-only signal is often installed if opposing traffic for a portion of the day is heavy enough to prevent left turns.

Ask Delaware about that one.  There are several intersections on US 202 with doghouse signals that require crossing 3 lanes of cross traffic.

Are you referring to the Concord Pike portion? I dunno when the last time you were on the road but most if not all of their turn signals are of the protected variety these days. In fact at the big circle-that's-not-a-circle in Talleyville you'll find protected arrow signals pointing in all sorts of directions and they confuse the hell out of novices.

Yes, but the section between Powder Mill Rd (Old DE 141) and Mt. Lebanon Rd Talleyville is still all doghouses.

[MASTERNC]

New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

[jakeroot]

New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.

[paulthemapguy]

New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.

It DOES look really nice.  I'm also a fan of any state in the Eastern time zone moving toward steel mast arm construction   Is this the first FYA in the whole state?  Is this part of a US15 freeway upgrade?

[cl94]

New FYA in PA is now operational as of today.

http://www.penndot.gov/RegionalOffices/district-8/Pages/details.aspx?newsid=114#.VyqwZ2abJow

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cho92MmXIAAnbbF.jpg:large

Looks like a great first install! Is it PennDOT standard to use median-mounted left turn signals? It looks really nice.

It DOES look really nice.  I'm also a fan of any state in the Eastern time zone moving toward steel mast arm construction   Is this the first FYA in the whole state?  Is this part of a US15 freeway upgrade?

PennDOT has been using masts sporadically for a while. Those masts are at least 10 years old. The median-mounted signal is not standard, unless they've changed things very recently. Likely installed that way so they didn't have to replace the mast. Typical PennDOT cheapness. Yes, it is the first FYA in Pennsylvania. Has nothing to do with any freeway upgrade.

[busman_49]

West Chester, Ohio, installed one a little while ago and it appears there's one getting ready to roll at OH 741 & Bethany Rd. outside Mason.

[US71]

Carthage, Missouri has a lot of "non green" FYA's:

[JJBers]

If no one as mentioned it, I believe there are a few in Connecticut

[rickmastfan67]

Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736

We are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.

[tradephoric]

This has been discussed before, but here is a good video of a FYA that doesn't have an all red interval.  This type of operation presumably increases the throughput of the intersection but in theory may also increase the accident rate.  However, I don't believe the potential increase in accidents has been well proven.  I wouldn't mind seeing more FYA's operate like this....
   

As a side note, i don't see what the car did wrong in this video.  The driver was past the stop bar when the signal changed to a solid yellow arrow and were well within their rights to proceed through the intersection.

[jakeroot]

As a side note, i don't see what the car did wrong in this video.  The driver was past the stop bar when the signal changed to a solid yellow arrow and were well within their rights to proceed through the intersection.

That sort of narration and lack of understanding drives me crazy. But he's not alone. A lot of Seattleites (incorrectly) believe that yellow means stop. Fortunately, the rest are like me and keep going until the oncoming cars set off.

Anyways, most of the FYAs in Seattle are phased like this (the video is from Seattle). I'll make another less annoying video of another example and post it here. I too prefer this phasing. I have yet to notice any uptick in collisions since they're phased just like doghouses would be.

[jakeroot]

Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM

[MASTERNC]

Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736

We are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.

At least they have a timeframe, unlike the 2 years it took to add any more 70 MPH zones beyond those selected for the initial test.

[thenetwork]

Some more info on FYA lights in PA:

https://twitter.com/PennDOTNews/status/732240379202932736

We are performing a 6-month evaluation. After that, we will have more direction regarding deployment in other locations.

Will the arrows be in Clearview as part of the 'test'??  <Ducking>

[tradephoric]

Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

I didn't know FYAs with no interim red interval was commonplace around Seattle.   From my experience the minimum green at FYA's can be extremely short (as low as 4 seconds).  A typical red interval is roughly 3 seconds long.  By eliminated the interim red interval you could nearly double the minimim green time without adversely effecting other movements.  So here are your two options for running a short FYA left turn:

With red interval:  4 sec green, 3 sec yellow, 3 sec red = 10 sec
Without red interval:  7 sec green, 3 sec yellow, no red = 10 sec

Drivers are only being displayed a green during 40% of the left-turn phase when a red interval is included (4 seconds green, 6 seconds clearance interval).  That's extremely inefficient.  Without a red interval you increase that percentage to 70% (7 seconds green, 3 seconds clearance interval).  You are going to push a lot more traffic through the intersection if you eliminate the interim red interval.

[tradephoric]

Can anyone cite the benefit of having a red interval at the FYA?  If your argument for a red interval is safety based, is there any literature to back it up?

[jeffandnicole]

Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

https://youtu.be/dmoD0aX4wJM

The majority of NJ lights don't have a interim red phase after a yellow arrow when they then have the permissive ability to turn left, and we don't have a flashing yellow here either.  I can cite a number of intersections where there isn't an interim red phase after a left turn light goes to a red arrow as well.

[tradephoric]

A little unrelated to the FYA discussion, but here is a signal that skips the yellow interval.  Without the yellow drivers have no indication when the permissive phase is ending (it goes straight from a flashing red ball to a solid red ball).

[rawmustard]

A little unrelated to the FYA discussion, but here is a signal that skips the yellow interval.  Without the yellow drivers have no indication when the permissive phase is ending (it goes straight from a flashing red ball to a solid red ball).

This was a fairly common practice in both leading and lagging setups where the left-turn phase was skipped. Although in much of the setups I've witnessed during my childhood, it would be common for the flashing red to stop when the adjacent through phase turned yellow regardless if the opposing through movement were still green for an opposing left-turn movement, although in more fully actuated setups the flashing red might continue until the opposing yellow.

[jakeroot]

Alright, so here's my video on Seattle's peculiar FYA phasing. Driving around Seattle, I can't really recall seeing any FYA's with an interim red phase. Certainly my preferred phasing style:

The majority of NJ lights don't have a interim red phase after a yellow arrow when they then have the permissive ability to turn left, and we don't have a flashing yellow here either.  I can cite a number of intersections where there isn't an interim red phase after a left turn light goes to a red arrow as well.

Of course they don't feature an interim red phase. 4/5-section signals cannot feature an interim red phase, because the circular indications apply to the through lanes (the only interim red phase with a 4/5-section signal is when the through lanes are still red, and the protected left turn ends).

The only reason we're having this discussion, is because FYA's normally feature a red arrow after the protected phase (when the left turn is leading), followed by a flashing yellow arrow. This phasing style is preferred because it created a visible jump between "protected phase ending" and "permissive phase beginning". The problem (beyond a slight decrease in green time) is that, at intersections with red light cameras, this creates a sort of dilemma where traffic is required to, after the protected phase, stop behind the line, wait for the flashing yellow arrow, and then move forward, even if the through lanes have a green signal. A comparable 4/5-section signal would allow traffic to stop in the intersection, so long as the through lanes had a green light.

[roadfro]

From my experience the minimum green at FYA's can be extremely short (as low as 4 seconds).  A typical red interval is roughly 3 seconds long.  By eliminated the interim red interval you could nearly double the minimim green time without adversely effecting other movements.  So here are your two options for running a short FYA left turn:

With red interval:  4 sec green, 3 sec yellow, 3 sec red = 10 sec
Without red interval:  7 sec green, 3 sec yellow, no red = 10 sec

Drivers are only being displayed a green during 40% of the left-turn phase when a red interval is included (4 seconds green, 6 seconds clearance interval).  That's extremely inefficient.  Without a red interval you increase that percentage to 70% (7 seconds green, 3 seconds clearance interval).  You are going to push a lot more traffic through the intersection if you eliminate the interim red interval.

Are the interim red intervals really 3 seconds in this scenario? Any FYA installation I've seen in Reno area where a protected left leads into a permissive phase, that interim red time is a second or less.

As to your other question: I don't know that there is any real benefit to having a short red display before the FYA turns on. Definitely haven't seen any studies or anything one way or the other. I can only speculate that some practitioners feel it is appropriate to have there as part of driver expectation (i.e. green-yellow-red is the norm).

[tradephoric]

Are the interim red intervals really 3 seconds in this scenario? Any FYA installation I've seen in Reno area where a protected left leads into a permissive phase, that interim red time is a second or less.

MDOT uses the following formula to calculate the all red interval (the same formula found in NCHRP Report 731):

R = (W + L) / v

Where:
R = red interval (s),
V = design speed (ft/s),
W = width of stop line to far-side no-conflict point (ft), and
L = length of vehicle, typically 20 f

The all red time use to be capped at 2.5 seconds but from my understanding that cap no longer exists (and depending on the width of the intersection the all red can become quite large).  For an example, a 110 ft wide intersection with a 30 mph design speed would have an all red of 3 seconds (110+20)/44 fps.

[jakeroot]

Puyallup, Washington has been installing some new flashing yellow arrows. They mostly replace 5-section heads, but some are new outright.

The biggest catch with these new signals is how pedestrians play into the phasing. Check out this snippet from the formal document according the city $530k in federal grants:

...replace traffic signal controllers, conflict monitors, and cabinets; modify peak hour signal timings to disable the flashing yellow arrow when a pedestrian call is placed; and do incidental work required to accomplish this.

I've brought up disabling the flashing yellow arrow during pedestrian phasing prior to now. While the idea has been dabbled with by cities outside of Seattle, namely Bellevue and Redmond, Puyallup appears to be the first major city, at least in Washington, to outright ban permissive phasing during times when the pedestrian crossing phase is activated, at all intersections. I actually wasted a bunch of time today, going around and checking out the current FYA's around Puyallup. Sure enough, the red arrow pops up when the crosswalk is activated. I'm not really sure what they mean when they say "peak hour", because all of the crossings I tested disabled the phase in the middle of the afternoon. I'll need to go back and check later, at different times of the day, to see whether or not the time of day plays into whether or not the red arrow or flashing yellow arrow is called.

I'm really not sure how I stand on this. On one hand, it makes sense. It's one thing to fail to yield to cars, but failing to yield to a pedestrian is almost always worse for the latter. On top of that, pedestrians are harder to spot than oncoming vehicles, and can sometimes be hidden behind a line of cars (at which point, the turning driver goes and, well, conflict!). On the other hand, it can potentially increase the amount of time that the signal is activated, because it has to let both the pedestrians and cars cross at separate intervals. It's one thing if there's a long line of oncoming cars, and you can't go anyways, but if there's no one coming, you feel like a sitting duck.