AARoads Forum

Regional Boards => International Highways => Topic started by: Chris on May 03, 2009, 07:08:56 AM

Title: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on May 03, 2009, 07:08:56 AM
Let me present to you the German Autobahn.

The German Autobahn is similar to the Interstate Highway system, and is also layed out in a grid pattern, rather unique for Europe, where most networks are radiating from the capital and other larger cities. The first Autobahn opened in 1935 between Darmstadt and Frankfurt, modern-day A5. It was mostly used as a high speed racetrack in the first years. Many more Autobahns were build in the 1930's, similar to the Parkway development in and around New York.

The current Autobahn network is about 12,500 kilometers or 7,800 miles, which would put it fourth or fifth in the world, behind Spain, China and the United States, and is similar in length to the network of France.

The entire Autobahn network is toll free for cars, but trucks do have to pay a toll electronically. Most Autobahns have 4 or 6 lanes, but stretches with more than 6 lanes are rare, and Texas style Autobahns do not exist. Major upgrading works are underway on busy truck corridors, to six-lane most long distance Autobahns, but these works are gonna take years.

The most famous part of the German Autobahn is the general lack of a speed limit, it's indeed possible and allowed to drive over 120 miles an hour, or even more. However, the general perception is that everybody drives at the speed of light, due to high fuel prices and heavy traffic, most people do not drive faster than 90 or 100 miles an hour. About 60% of the Autobahn network is limited at 80 mph or less.

I have made thousands of pictures in Germany. You can find all sets here, on my Flickr account (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/collections/72157612744939495/)

Some examples of signage:

1. First announcement of the exit: name, number and distance.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3262%2F3213884284_48a2a0dd44.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=5dee65b2018e29cd577137959995f445984dd480)

2. Overhead signage. Not all exits have overhead signage.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3527%2F3213884408_851d49f988.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=110bb0a00a074c278dd4548610efed240eb57d92)

3. At the exit. A road number of an intersecting Bundesstrasse may be shown, not in this example.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3099%2F3213884494_3b82a6047c.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=992dc5a757249c460d666acd9c5a8c2627e672f5)

4. A distance table follows after the exit, showing the A-number, E-number and major cities.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3393%2F3213038585_edef44e734.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=dcb6fed78bde26e0d9f97e24d804cedfb8ee007e)

5. Touristic signs are common along the roads.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3128%2F3213038777_f31cb6bb89.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=55759df5fc27d9f3d5dbcb05f346e0bdd63eabd3)

6. River crossing (minor river)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3421%2F3213885152_bc3cf22f9c.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=3b8a97a7bec924d045894c05ec19b6f110b7bf89)

7. Rest areas are announced more in advance.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3396%2F3213885298_d66ff06eb5.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=93044bff0d798b43ab4b08229a1eaa60c6d31ec9)

8. This overhead shows the two different fonts used in Germany. Hannover is in the regular "mittelschrift" , Rheda-Wiedenbrück is too long, and shown in narrow font ("engschrift").
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3342%2F3213039801_db6dd4766d.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=d9a7b71d99d8eab8e6dd6351bacd7b3a16edb73c)

9. General view of a high quality Autobahn.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3456%2F3213886338_c66e1c59a1.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=42a2f1d1ab5765fd26e8f030073967244d2ff262)

10. An SOS phone in case of an emergency. Less used these days with everybody owning cell phones.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3414%2F3213886470_0456648704.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=f123cd35a2a38d8546b8354e95b624ad956d3325)

11. Announcement for road works with lanes shifted. In this case, there are still 3 lanes, but the left one narrows to two meters only.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3267%2F3213886552_ac1fc8fd0f.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=0b856c405b588b0d81fabce398d6717ecccdda2c)

12. Yellow markings show the temporary road situation.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3084%2F3213886638_1bb6002da5.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=f9bf56e014e9fd981e720c5f33c8c676ffee3dae)

13. This is the first announcement of a major rest area with services. Unlike the United States, services are always along the Autobahn, and not near exits (except for some truck stops called an "Autohof"). It also shows the distance to the next gas station.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3400%2F3213040777_7727079812.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=e1cf61541846c4c97866423d164eb137c0d54b1f)

14. First announcement of the actual exit to the rest area.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3128%2F3213041265_7f0cffc285.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=a70f7b532b8c6f65e593c7d12b3436839b42adec)

15. It's repeated after 500 meters.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3455%2F3213887584_ee13e12010.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=881fdbcdea484c85abf05f251aa3de2a3e8a10ee)

16. And at the actual exit. This one is an Aral gas station plus services like a Burger King. It also features a bathroom for the disabled.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3419%2F3213041471_1323d6b8d8.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=463c4c4c37f4b4f02e670a8c78e7da0903f79585)

17. Now the interchange. Interchanges between different Autobahns have a name. They can be a "Kreuz"  (Cross) (4-way) or a "Dreieck" (Triangle)(3-way). The name of the interchange is named on the signs at the last exit before the interchange.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3342%2F3213887882_5796c23d3a.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=9f7420169a10be8e9c9be4079396e03a0aa42a7f)

18. This distance table also shows a destination for the intersecting Autobahn, in this case the A33.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3513%2F3213041937_52da0abdd9.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=e8ea5462f60be832dcbc1e988c51a6895a6f4234)

19. These signs are used when exits are in rapid succession, like two exits or interchanges in two to three kilometers or less.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3409%2F3213888470_053ebcb798.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=2e3c48d7d39ba9c194fa2b159b41a320a4e592b1)

20. First signage shows the layout of the lanes ahead.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3463%2F3213042553_92d2f53e11.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=3e9e34b231b860ee9b5cf84745f562b380e0d683)

21. This is repeated at 500 meters.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3301%2F3213042645_ab16a80320.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=23a7714c0a25fb65bde65b211e53e4ff344237c0)

22. And the exit to A33. This is a relatively simple interchange.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3301%2F3213042645_ab16a80320.jpg%3Fv%3D0&hash=23a7714c0a25fb65bde65b211e53e4ff344237c0)

Many consider the German signage to be one of the best in Europe, although it has some flaws, I think the German signage is indeed the best in Europe, and maybe even the world.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: njroadhorse on May 03, 2009, 08:53:40 AM
The autobahns are great pieces of engineering.  I've only been on a select few, but the ones I have were awesome
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on May 03, 2009, 12:40:46 PM
I've been on the Autobahns a few times. Last year I drove to Hungary and was stuck in a jam between Nürnberg and Regensburg. Traffic jams are something else the Autobahn is famous for. I believe traveling on a Friday afternoon in July wasn't the smartest thing to do :cool:

As my car has a top speed of only 130 I only took it up to 120.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mightyace on May 04, 2009, 04:49:14 PM
Quote13. This is the first announcement of a major rest area with services. Unlike the United States, services are always along the Autobahn, and not near exits (except for some truck stops called an "Autohof"). It also shows the distance to the next gas station.

The only exception to this are older current and former toll roads.  The NJ, PA, OH, IN, IL, NY, MA, ME, DE pikes all have service areas as well as some (most? all?) in Oklahoma as well as some of Kentucky's parkways.

NOTE TO ALL: This is not an exhaustive list.

However, IIRC, these are grandfathered into the interstate system and no new (insterstate) highway may have them.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: ComputerGuy on May 04, 2009, 06:57:51 PM
The History Channel's Modern Marvels did a whole documentary on the Autobahns, aka Adolf Hitler's Highway.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on May 05, 2009, 04:53:54 AM
Adolf Hitler did certainly not invent the Autobahn, he didn't like them at all at first, but saw the propaganda value of them after a while.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mightyace on May 05, 2009, 01:43:27 PM
Quote from: Chris on May 05, 2009, 04:53:54 AM
Adolf Hitler did certainly not invent the Autobahn, he didn't like them at all at first, but saw the propaganda value of them after a while.

Did he also see the military value in them?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on May 05, 2009, 01:57:14 PM
That's why he didn't like them at first, enemy troops would be able to advance too fast with the Autobahns.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on May 05, 2009, 07:11:21 PM
And that's exactly what happened.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: 74/171FAN on May 05, 2009, 11:02:58 PM
QuoteThat's why he didn't like them at first, enemy troops would be able to advance too fast with the Autobahns.
And this is not in the history books??????????(at least none that I know of)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on May 11, 2009, 04:30:54 AM
A59 in Duisburg, industrial city, part of a 10 million metropolitan area (Rhine-Ruhr)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39DB1JhS7UE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39DB1JhS7UE)

A3 near Köln (Cologne). Population: 980,000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXl86iCW6uk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXl86iCW6uk)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on May 12, 2009, 01:12:52 PM
QuoteAnd this is not in the history books?????????? (at least none that I know of)

Ian Kershaw's biography of Hitler has some detail on Hitler's initial lack of enthusiasm for motorways.  Richard Vahrenkamp also has some working papers which go into considerable detail on pre-1933 German thinking on motorways in the context of the wider road versus rail issue.  The Nazis were divided on the motorway question for a long time.  Fritz Todt, who supervised German motorway construction under Hitler, was a party member since 1923 and had been pitching motorway schemes since the mid-1920's at least, but his opinion was initially in the minority--it was not until later that he was taken into party headquarters as an advisor on economic and industrial development.

In the late 1920's Gregor Strasser (who represented the socialism in National Socialism) was opposed to motorways and helped scuttle HAFRABA's attempts to introduce legislation to allow motorway construction, but by 1933 the party had moved around to the idea of motorways as a job creation program/prestige project/propaganda coup/spur to motorization.  The passage of an enabling law for motorways was one of Hitler's first acts in office, and the various groups of motorway advocates (of which HAFRABA was probably the most well-known) were among the earliest targets for forced amalgamation under Party supervision (Gleichschaltung).  The resulting organization was called GEZUVOR, an acronym of the German for "Society for the Preparation of the Motorway Work," and its principal work product was 387 volumes' worth of plans and profiles for a 10,000-km motorway network.  These 387 volumes have never come to light (it is not known whether they survived the war).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on May 12, 2009, 01:44:04 PM
For those who don't know: "HAFRABA" is short for "Hamburg - Frankfurt - Basel", a major north-south corridor, consisting of todays A7 and A5, although I believe it was originally to be A5 all the way north of Gießen to Bremen as the HaFraBa corridor.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Bryant5493 on May 12, 2009, 11:02:00 PM
The Autobahn looks amazing. I saw a special on the History Channel about it. Cool special.


Be well,

Bryant
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 20, 2009, 09:28:07 AM
The earliest German Autobahns date back from the 1930's, and were called a "Reichsautobahn" (Empire freeway).

These used to have concrete, no shoulders, and very tight exits that looked more like a 90 degrees turn than an offramp. Some of these still exist, but most interchanges have been modernized with longer exit lanes. Still, some rest areas still have a stop sign when entering the Autobahn, which usually has a speed limit of 130 km/h (80 mph) in those sections.

The following video was taken on a sunday on the A9, which is a major Autobahn from Berlin to München (Munich). This is the last part of the entire 529 km A9 that hasn't been modernized/widened to 6 lanes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGY-EUGnUY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fGY-EUGnUY)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on August 20, 2009, 10:53:23 AM
Is the jerking of the camera caused by the rough surface? It reminds me of the road near Eupen and many US concrete roads :cool:
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 20, 2009, 12:41:42 PM
that's just amazing.  not only the old road (reminds me of the oldest sections of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, 1940 - same basic principles of roadbuilding) but the fact that the speed limit there is 80.  In the US, a road like that would never get anything above 65!

too bad the signs on the Reichsautobahn aren't white with glass cateyes.  They always find a way to modernize the signs!

are there any other autobahns in former East Germany that are this decrepit?  If so, I need to get over there and drive them before it's too late.  I've heard that in 1990, a lot of the East German roads were just like they were left in 1945! 
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 20, 2009, 01:03:17 PM
Most Autobahnen are rehabilitated by now.

Reichsautobahnen also extended into what is modern-day Poland, such as the A4 to Wrocław which was horrible in 2003 (longest stairs of Europe due to the gaps between the concrete) but renovated in 2006. As of today, no more bad-quality freeways exist in Poland.

A11 in Germany is that last Autobahn that's still in old conditions as far as I know. It connects Berlin with Szczecin in Poland. I think it will be renovated in one or two years.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iv.pl%2Fimages%2Fl5h60xjtf946fwbi6fd.jpg&hash=97f5935878a0ab2bcd822aacb1661c0225f1107f)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iv.pl%2Fimages%2Fzx4gcgvqisuwsp084mvh.jpg&hash=0a6480ad55f802adca0f45c60c01fc23abd5bd6f)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iv.pl%2Fimages%2F1dpgs61s7wzf7lz19xl0.jpg&hash=a774768884407af36fc9598d96b03b54d99a6878)

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 20, 2009, 01:12:34 PM
is that A11 that's undergoing renovation in those photos?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 20, 2009, 01:56:40 PM
Yes it is.

I remember the A13 (Berlin - Dresden) to be so bad we all got seasick with our caravan behind the car. It was merely a concrete road that was more like gravel. Most of these Autobahns have been renovated, but still have that 1930's alignment, although that's not so much of a problem in the rural areas they run through.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 23, 2009, 02:28:49 PM
There is actually not that much difference between Bauanweisung Nr. 3 standards (1933) and current design standards.  The problem, as I understand it, is that the Nazis showed a deliberate preference for mountain routings (which attract a different design class) because they did not want the popularity of the Autobahn program to be compromised by more economic but also more obtrusive routings through populated valley floors.  As a result, many segments of the Autobahn network are crippled by bad winter weather whereas parallel sections of Bundesstrassen remain functional.

Modern Autobahnen also tend to have flowing alignments.  The practice of perspective evaluation of prospective alignments was developed and rolled out in response to the unsightly visual kinks and twists in the alignments of early Autobahnen.  It was subsequently imported to Britain, and allowed the British to capitalize on their late start to sidestep some German mistakes, but it never quite made its way across the Atlantic, though Tunnard and Pushkarev promoted it heavily in Man-made America.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 23, 2009, 03:04:19 PM
I think the A8, München (Munich) - Salzburg is the prime example of such a mountain Autobahn. It could've run somewhat further north, through flat lands, but no, the nazi's constructed it through a mountainous area with sharp curves and grades up to 7%. It's now a pain in the ass with a lot of truck traffic going 25 mph uphill.

I happened to drive there last wednesday, and I took pics of course, since it was my first time clinching that part of A8.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3625%2F3849599206_70991233b7_o.jpg&hash=6a4a33663c8c32bfaee5b3e902383b744c37f3ee)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2483%2F3849600082_6b341f567c_o.jpg&hash=b50f0baa9d05093eaddd03e3af76b138c611b14b)

This is actually an unsigned exit. Notice the merging lanes are no longer than 4 dashes of paint!
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2488%2F3848803853_6008cd2135_o.jpg&hash=6ec873a0fe2b30aae5818d7c7fd13d457809a954)

No shoulders + breakdown = traffic jam.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2640%2F3849600330_5b7890a4a5_o.jpg&hash=6912c7e937310c490e7e7db363524f3ec59223cb)

narrow alignment.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2663%2F3848805107_62b8dba0b7_o.jpg&hash=f6c83bf2ca93717b1708def875ce6bd7e8afab03)

It's better after Dreieck Inntal (Interchange Inntal)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2445%2F3849628824_dcef440362_o.jpg&hash=d17059746751511e5c1173e1c42a05693fbfc604)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2009, 03:18:02 PM
where does the unsigned exit go to?  I cannot seem to find it on google maps.  Is it the customs lane just before the Austria border?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 23, 2009, 03:19:11 PM
It's the exit of Anger (Gmaps) (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Anger,+Bavaria&sll=51.019275,11.120366&sspn=0.009624,0.01929&g=Anger,+Germany&ie=UTF8&ll=47.800343,12.855678&spn=0.010277,0.01929&t=h&z=16)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 23, 2009, 03:21:16 PM
Oh yeah, the speed limit on this road is mostly 80 mph.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on August 23, 2009, 03:30:26 PM
how come Anger didn't get a sign?

also, the eastbound lanes seem to have a far more modern ramp system than the westbound.  Were the two built at different times?  A lot of the exits seem to be of 1940s specification!
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: treichard on October 12, 2009, 05:53:17 PM
Recently I took a close look (in Google Maps, not in person) at the autobahnen system.    There's also a great hobbyist reference site at
http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html (http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html) 

There are lots of plans to "finish" much of the system now and in the next decade, to fill in the gaps between pieces of like-numbered freeways and add a handful of new ones. There are a few routes still in many pieces, like A44.

A98 is another.  A new piece popped up on Yahoo Maps:
http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=47.562944&lon=8.018065&zoom=15 (http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=47.562944&lon=8.018065&zoom=15)
But it's marked in a thin, gray line like it's the quality of a minor city street.  Is that piece already opened and also designated A98?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: allniter89 on October 12, 2009, 08:13:51 PM
QuoteThis is actually an unsigned exit. Notice the merging lanes are no longer than 4 dashes of paint!
Yep, and notice the dual tire (truck) skid marks  :pan:
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: DAL764 on October 14, 2009, 05:14:09 PM
Quote from: treichard on October 12, 2009, 05:53:17 PMThere are lots of plans to "finish" much of the system now and in the next decade, to fill in the gaps between pieces of like-numbered freeways and add a handful of new ones. There are a few routes still in many pieces, like A44.
Though when, or IF, those gaps are filled still remains to be seen, because a) they cost a sh!tload of money, and b) the number of NIMBYs and treehuggers is ever growing in this country. Hence why I predict that the A44 will NEVER be completed as one Autobahn.

Quote from: treichard on October 12, 2009, 05:53:17 PMA98 is another.  A new piece popped up on Yahoo Maps:
http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=47.562944&lon=8.018065&zoom=15 (http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=m&lat=47.562944&lon=8.018065&zoom=15)
But it's marked in a thin, gray line like it's the quality of a minor city street.  Is that piece already opened and also designated A98?
It's open to construction crews  :-P . Actually, that part of the A98 isn't supposed to open before summer 2011, and even then it will only be as a Super 2 instead of a full Autobahn. And what I said about the A44 never being completed applies even more so to the A98.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: NJRoadfan on November 15, 2009, 03:07:55 PM
Driving the A8 is kinda like driving around NJ/NY on the older (non) freeways. No shoulders, lots of traffic, sharp curves, and everyone is doing 75mph (even though the speed limit is 45-50mph).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: simguy228 on November 15, 2009, 08:09:23 PM
You have taught me something. As I look at those Autobahn pics, Germans are RHD! I am German and went to Germany to see my unknown cousins. The last time I went there was about 2-3 months ago... :clap:

[Removed excess smileys. -S.]

[Fixed spelling.  Changed your purple to something more readable. -S2.]
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Scott5114 on November 17, 2009, 12:05:43 AM
You, uh, didn't notice while you were there?  :hmmm:
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: shoptb1 on December 22, 2009, 07:21:47 PM
I love driving the A8, especially down in lower Bavaria near Austria.  And yeah, it does remind me of the older sections of Turnpike in PA/NJ. 

One thing that I also really like about the Autobahn systems are the Interchange Countdown markers.  I'm surprised that this feature wasn't mentioned in the initial posting.  Since the Autobahns were designed for higher-speed driving, these markers are arranged so that you can know (in a glance) how far you are from the next exit. 

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gettingaroundgermany.info%2Fg_imgs%2Fz45x.gif&hash=fd11f3bed1759f7aa10b7973f39b71188a88499c)

These markers are placed 300 meters (3 stripes), 200 meters (2 stripes), and 100 meters (1 stripe) before each exit.  In addition, the interchange number appears atop the 300 meter marker.  It's a very well-designed feature...and every time I'm in Europe I always think this would be a great addition to the American MUTCD.  I just won't hold my breath.   :spin:

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: njroadhorse on December 23, 2009, 01:28:46 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on December 22, 2009, 07:21:47 PM
One thing that I also really like about the Autobahn systems are the Interchange Countdown markers.  I'm surprised that this feature wasn't mentioned in the initial posting.  Since the Autobahns were designed for higher-speed driving, these markers are arranged so that you can know (in a glance) how far you are from the next exit. 

These markers are placed 300 meters (3 stripes), 200 meters (2 stripes), and 100 meters (1 stripe) before each exit.  In addition, the interchange number appears atop the 300 meter marker.  It's a very well-designed feature...and every time I'm in Europe I always think this would be a great addition to the American MUTCD.  I just won't hold my breath.   :spin:

They do this in Britain along the motorways and motorway-grade sections of roads.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on December 23, 2009, 02:14:54 PM
Ireland have them also. There may be other countries that use them I've never been to.

In Britain there is a tendency to place them a bit further ahead of where they should be. The final sign with one stripe is often placed more than 100yds before the exit lane appears in recent installations.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: yacoded on December 23, 2009, 04:15:18 PM
Most countries in Europe do the countdown numbers.  We should have them here.  The UK uses the imperial system so that's why they use yards instead of metres.  Personally I like the Metric system but that's a whole new can of worms. 
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 23, 2009, 04:42:17 PM
The A38 Autobahn has now been fully completed. It is one of the major public works projects to connect Eastern Germany with Western Germany, the A38 runs from Göttingen via Halle to Leipzig. It will shorten the distance from southern Poland to the Ruhr metropolis by 30 kilometers (20 miles).

It is also a much better road in terms of design criteria, as the A4 between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach is still a 1930's antiquated Autobahn with lack of shoulders and low bridges.

some pics of A4:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2671%2F3840104442_161cbbc065_o.jpg&hash=855334d148702b90bdf1c6f2ad150c2b4852bace)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2522%2F3839315629_06c88400d6_o.jpg&hash=0328b0facadb91195c4508f95de81daaca2696ae)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2577%2F3840105042_c809e2c8fd_o.jpg&hash=924ac92efbf8adbfc0eea1a6d49b85604752cb34)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3447%2F3840105168_eff2f6143c_o.jpg&hash=60d3c5a6cf918d8cf54fa5adb4d4626e5fca6883)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2548%2F3840105238_6c1659c2f3_o.jpg&hash=d2f792e1165d24a202c01a2ff6e47276ae067459)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3456%2F3840105290_484c6be5ce_o.jpg&hash=d1c0f31dba9b26af4ad4c7a653e06155e4baac86)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2674%2F3840105832_246b906831_o.jpg&hash=3d7f329526781f212289cfafe4dc202ee0e86f87)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3479%2F3839317083_2efb881c43_o.jpg&hash=c842e9317cf7bcbc9c2834b0514f673b5dd5dd93)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3549%2F3840107304_974bf166f7_o.jpg&hash=11472887037d02e19fe3dc58ebc31c3ca3e25da8)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2557%2F3839318639_b085a670e5_o.jpg&hash=337310bfeadafa92784e9f0937c6237261eb4eb7)

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 23, 2009, 06:48:17 PM
I love how the speed limit is 120 (about 72mph) on the A4.  In the US, they'd slap a 55 or a 50 mph on there in no time.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 24, 2009, 04:57:01 AM
130 km/h (80 mph) is also common on such roads, but it depends on which state you're in. Some states have 120 km/h, others have 130 km/h. I don't really know why this difference exists.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 24, 2009, 05:34:57 AM
how much independence do the German states have?  I know it's a federal republic but beyond that I have no idea.  In the US, all states are, I believe, free to set speed limits as they see fit.  There was a federal speed limit of 55mph from 1973 to the late 90s but as far as I know, all the restrictions are off.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 24, 2009, 05:39:24 AM
There is some freedom, for instance the 120/130 km/h difference, and signage can be somewhat different, especially the state of Hessen is known for this. But the general speed limit outside city limits is 100 km/h unless posted otherwise and 50 km/h within city limits unless posted otherwise. Some people can see which state an Autobahn is in just by it's crash barriers, although I don't notice that.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 24, 2009, 06:06:22 AM
do you have any examples of Hessen signage?  I'm familiar with the general German blue signs so now I'm curious how different Hessen is.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: shoptb1 on December 24, 2009, 06:32:25 AM
I love the sign denoting the historical inner-German border (between East and West).  cool stuff!
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 24, 2009, 08:52:19 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on December 24, 2009, 06:06:22 AM
do you have any examples of Hessen signage?  I'm familiar with the general German blue signs so now I'm curious how different Hessen is.

For instance;

1. Hessen: left aligned and note the arrows:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3265%2F3215713260_0cffb54c34_b.jpg&hash=b9c264b5e46e621b24a0695c9285c2a39eb22ca6)

2. Rheinland-Pfalz: center aligned.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3647%2F3434358906_6a1519016c_o.jpg&hash=d0fc9da7e5d4d2a045fa81069e9a1f4a8f12e417)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on December 24, 2009, 12:58:12 PM
thanks for the picture!  not as radically different as I had envisioned; there are similar amounts of variety in the US.

here I thought you'd show me a black sign or something  :-D
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on December 24, 2009, 03:43:27 PM
Quote from: shoptb1 on December 24, 2009, 06:32:25 AM
I love the sign denoting the historical inner-German border (between East and West).  cool stuff!
The A4 crossed that border three times in quick succession in that area.  Two of those crossings were cut off by the 'Wall' with traffic having to detour around it on local surface roads while the third was the official 'transit' checkpoint.  Reconnecting it was one of the first priorities of the German Federal Transport Ministry after the reunification while the checkpoint was, IIRC, converted into a pair of service plazas.  It is fascinating to check out on Google's aerial images.

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 24, 2009, 03:58:47 PM
The watchtowers and customs are still there:

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3578%2F3840106350_1ca84306dd_o.jpg&hash=a9ee23258462faef86e85c34a305261bed469982)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 29, 2009, 08:37:43 AM
A few more Reichsautobahn pictures of the A9: Berlin -> München (Munich). This section is the last in the A9, as far as I know, and is approximately 15 kilometers (10 miles) long.

1. First, it looks like this. At exit Lederhose.  :)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4008%2F4224462319_96580eac77_o.jpg&hash=8b34d9069be5b7467727853910798a5cd33a400c)

2. End of the six-lane section.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4009%2F4225232252_e16cf406e4_o.jpg&hash=0b48c2c561d115b68da12720e4fd5fa6e9fe77c0)

3. This is the road layout for the next few miles. No shoulder, but they have constructed a barrier in the median.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2695%2F4225232380_a96f136404_o.jpg&hash=fc492e23ca9bda1025b2a00871d7f9c5366b9a82)

4. Typical 1930's design; long straight sections, with similar curves every now and then.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2655%2F4224462771_48b1fb637a_o.jpg&hash=171dc2683a52b19ad007a9dba25976eac9e5d47e)

5. Interchange Dittersdorf. In Europe, interchange names are more well-known than their numbers in most countries. Most countries have unique exit names for every interchange. Some countries do not number freeway-to-freeway interchanges though (like France and the Netherlands)
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2650%2F4224462859_90c1edffd2_o.jpg&hash=9c2163ca8461907152943f5e3851ccd9f4ab0570)

6. A slightly improved exit ramp. They used to have a very tight turn directly from the Autobahn with no space to decelerate but on the right lane.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2685%2F4225232676_3b8715a62b_o.jpg&hash=7619d67f1a473fe6d96c16e626919dc64e5c7ccf)

7. Birches along the Autobahn.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2506%2F4225232770_fb424aa27d_o.jpg&hash=f6789327503b280d012cd289a7b193c13be6c3dd)

8. Yes, that's an 80 mph speed limit on a shoulderless freeway with substandard pavement!  :spin:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4030%2F4224463101_acaab7378d_o.jpg&hash=d7ff55a4cbc18f733c7b72bf0abf0a4a284f3559)

9. The Autobahn widens up to six lanes again.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2701%2F4225232854_dd8b94a8b3_o.jpg&hash=39a980e64bcb01f97c5a99b49ed93486c94bce6e)


Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: shoptb1 on December 29, 2009, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: Chris on December 29, 2009, 08:37:43 AM
A few more Reichsautobahn pictures of the A9: Berlin -> München (Munich). This section is the last in the A9, as far as I know, and is approximately 15 kilometers (10 miles) long.

Thanks for the photos...this brings back memories.  I remember that the A9 is notoriously congested...so much so that a lot of people prefer to make their trips between Berlin and Muenchen at night to avoid the ridiculous traffic.  Do you know if there are any plans to upgrade this remaining 15km section to 6 lanes?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on December 29, 2009, 10:39:47 AM
I think so.

Generally speaking, the A9 flows very well, but on holiday peak traffic in the summer, it becomes notoriously congested, also in the winter south of Nürnberg (Nuremberg) when half of Germany and the Netherlands go skiing in Austria.

Traffic volumes are generally between 40,000 and 70,000 AADT outside the major urban areas, so that's not so bad for six lanes, but the increase of truck traffic is a problem, especially south of Nürnberg, a lot of truck traffic from A3 joins A9 south here. Sometimes the right lane is occupied by trucks for miles and miles in a row.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on February 18, 2010, 05:38:27 PM
Hi guys. I'm new to this forum and I come with a lifelong interest in highways, directional signing and traffic safety. This is an excellent thread on Autobahn design and signage. I have some questions about Autobahn signing that I hope you guys can help me with.

In every reference I've seen to Autobahn signing, people attest to how good it is. But I note some substantial differences with American signing and in some cases I think the American way is better.  For instance the standard distance for the first advance exit sign on the Autobahn appears to be 1000m or about 6/10's of a mile. That seems very short for a highway where people are routinely going 80mph. American Interstate practice is 1 or 2 miles or a shorter distance if the exits are closely spaced, which seems a little better.

Another oddity about German signing is the arrow on the cantiliever sign at the beginning of the deceleration lane. American practice puts the arrow on the exiting side of the sign, usually to the right of the legend. But I see common German practice is just the opposite; the arrow is located to the left of the legend for a right-hand exit.

I'm also curious why no compass direction is shown with the route symbol on the Autobahn. It seems that European signing is oriented mostly to place names instead of route and compass direction. Does anyone know what the rationale is for these practices?  Like they say: It's all good. And it makes highways interesting. I kind of miss the earlier period in Interstate history where the major toll roads in the American Northeast each had their own specific sign system. But thats a topic for another thread.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 18, 2010, 05:47:34 PM
Cardinal directions are almost never used in Europe. It is indeed city focused, as many countries do not have a grid system, but a national centered one (on the capital, for example, or several larger cities). The geography of Europe (mainly a bunch of very large peninsulas) and socio-economic structure does not allow an extensive grid system.

Good observation about the distance signed to the exit, this is 1 km for regular exits, and 2 km for Autobahn-Autobahn interchanges. Regular exit distance indication in Germany is probably the shortest in Europe, other countries use something between 1.2 and 3 km. I don't know exactly what the motivation behind this is.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: shoptb1 on February 18, 2010, 08:05:50 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 18, 2010, 05:38:27 PM
Hi guys. I'm new to this forum and I come with a lifelong interest in highways, directional signing and traffic safety. This is an excellent thread on Autobahn design and signage. I have some questions about Autobahn signing that I hope you guys can help me with.

Welcome to the forum!

Quote from: SignBridge on February 18, 2010, 05:38:27 PM
I'm also curious why no compass direction is shown with the route symbol on the Autobahn. It seems that European signing is oriented mostly to place names instead of route and compass direction.

I have to agree with you on this one....  As Chris explained, European highways really aren't designed on a grid system.  Even more so, I've noticed that Europeans don't think of geographical directions as much as Americans when driving.  I personally feel that part of this is due to the history of travel in Europe.  Even though the Autobahnen are relatively new, various routes between these historical locations are thousands of years old.  When people would give directions to a certain location, directions were given with a major emphasis on the "via cities" part.   "To get to Stuttgart, take the A8 via Augsburg and Ulm", as opposed to "take A8 West".  I think the cardinal directions are easier, but maybe that's because I was raised in the US.  
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 19, 2010, 03:19:12 AM
European cities are not based on E-W/N-S grid systems. If there is a grid system (which is rare), they are not necessarily E-W or N-S. People in Europe generally don't think in terms of east and west, when traveling, but indeed via control cities. That is also why many Europeans have a hard time adjusting to the American system, when you only see a sign that says "I-405 south", they have no idea where it leads, because we are used to have control cities on the signs. Cardinal directions are not completely absent in Europe though, I know the UK and Portugal sometimes use cardinal directions such as "The North" or "Sul". But they are rare. What is also much more common in Europe than the United States are freeways which run diagonal, southwest to northeast for example.

For example, Spanish A-6 (Madrid - A Coruña) can be seen both as a N-S as E-W route, as is also the case for the German A3 (The Netherlands - Austria). Not to mention many European countries where the road system is built in a spider-web, like in Hungary, Spain, Austria, Czech Republic, United Kingdom, France, etc.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Bickendan on February 19, 2010, 05:27:10 AM
It makes the E routes interesting, because they are in a grid, more or less.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: english si on February 19, 2010, 06:45:29 AM
The cardinal directions in the UK aren't that rare, but they aren't universal. Then again, most of them are pointing to The NORTH, The NORTH WEST, The MIDLANDS, The SOUTH, The WEST, The SOUTH WEST - vague areas of the country (and you can be directed to two on one sign).

The main places where you get things like M1 (South) or M6 (N) are when there's two different turn-offs for one road and there's not an easy way to sign it in a short way.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on February 19, 2010, 12:43:00 PM
Actually, the American Interstates don't always run in a strict grid pattern. Some of them do run diagonally, but are always designated as an E-W or N-S route. However, sometimes it can be misleading. There are situations where the German system might be more advantageous. As is often true with a lot of stuff, you can make a good case for either system.

Some diagonal Interstates are: I-15 (N-S) from Los Angeles to Salt Lake City,Utah................. I-44 (E-W) from Tulsa, Oklahoma to St. Louis, Missouri................. and I-81 (N-S) from Knoxville, Tennesee to Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 19, 2010, 02:14:56 PM
Quote from: Bickendan on February 19, 2010, 05:27:10 AM
It makes the E routes interesting, because they are in a grid, more or less.

Yep, that's true. I have to add the E-system isn't used very much outside those few countries who use it as their main numbering system (Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden). Some countries don't post E-numbers at all (United Kingdom), or limited (Germany). As the amount of cross-continental traffic is low in Europe, there isn't much need for E-numbers. Some E-number routes don't make much sense anyway, look at E25 in the Netherlands, nobody would follow that route from Rotterdam to Maastricht.

I don't think E-routes are posted at all in central Asia. E40 takes a weird route through Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan to Kazakhstan, which may be a detour of over 1,000 miles.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on February 20, 2010, 12:48:54 PM
I'm suprised there are E routes in central asia.  Aren't they European routes?  It would be like having a US highway in Canada.

Why is the amount of cross-continental traffic low?  I would think it would be fairly high, since there isn't customs between the countries.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 20, 2010, 01:18:31 PM
The Schengen area is only a part of continental Europe (40%), plus large areas of Schengen (Scandinavia) are hardly populated. It's not like we have a lot of traffic that covers the distances like you see in the U.S., coast-to-coast. Most truck traffic stays within the 1,000 miles range, although I must add you do see trucks from countries over 2,000 miles away, like Turkey or Russia, in Western Europe.

The socio-geographic circumstances are different in Europe. Most of the population is centered in central, western and southern Europe, with large areas which do not see a lot of international traffic (Russia, Scandinavia) like you see in Western Europe. In the United States, there are large concentrations of population in the opposite sides of the country.

The busiest border crossing in Europe is between the Netherlands and Belgium, which sees 60,000 AADT, but most other border crossings do not exceed 20,000 - 30,000 AADT in Western Europe. There are many freeway border crossings that have traffic volumes below 15,000 AADT.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: aswnl on February 21, 2010, 04:34:55 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on February 18, 2010, 05:38:27 PM
It seems that European signing is oriented mostly to place names instead of route and compass direction. Does anyone know what the rationale is for these practices?
It has already been mentioned that most Europeans don't think in cardinal directions. Most common is thinking within their own country, and in alle those countries it is common that a region is represented by a large city within that region. A large city, which has importance to the road network. A control-city system. There is a difference however between the cc-systems in countries: some are line-based, just showing the next and the last city on the highway you're driving at, and some are network based, some are even mixtures. In Germany for instance the system kowns Hauptfernziele (major cities far away which are in line of the road you're on, but can be located on another crossing highway) and Fernziele (the major cities more nearby along the road you're driving on).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on February 22, 2010, 05:48:43 AM
In the UK there is a hierarchy of signposted destinations.

Regional destinations--These refer generally to parts of the country and are sometimes used (incorrectly) on signs as equivalents to cardinal direction words on American signs.  Examples:  "The NORTH," "The SOUTH WEST," "The Lakes" (this last was retired in 1994, IIRC).  (Regional destinations are very England-centric.  For example, if you see "The NORTH WEST" on a sign, it is referring to "motorway country" in Lancashire and environs.  Similarly, "The NORTH" refers to the north of England--Newcastle, etc.  You shouldn't really see "The NORTH" between Edinburgh and Inverness, for example.)

Super-primary destinations--These are large cities which are signed from far away on motorways and on the primary route network (essentially, all roads which receive green-background direction signs).  Examples:  "London," "Leeds," etc.

Primary destinations--These smaller cities are signed on the motorways and primary route network but from shorter distances.  Examples:  "Oxford," "Coventry," etc.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: english si on February 23, 2010, 08:09:45 AM
It's worth pointing out that there's a hierachy on primary destinations too. The M40 is signed onwards at junction 1 as Birmingham, Oxford, Beaconsfield. Birmingham is super-primary, Beaconsfield the next primary destination, but Oxford is on there over High Wycombe (the primary destination after Beaconsfield) because it's considered more important.

Ditto Portsmouth and Bournemouth beating Ringwood and Fareham on signs around Southampton (eg on the M271), despite those being the next Primary Destinations along the south coast route.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2010, 08:08:50 AM
80 people were injured in a massive pile-up on A8 near Augsburg. 100 cars and 30 trucks collided on the Autobahn due to a combination of ice and fog.
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.welt.de%2Fmultimedia%2Farchive%2F1268386578000%2F01041%2Fmmund_autobahn6_DW_1041169g.jpg&hash=f09e6aa0bd7f34a6a2c33fab944cc821353f5fdc)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi43.tinypic.com%2F23r0itt.jpg&hash=719692241b6d16c755136d52ef4409e845d5489b)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Brandon on March 12, 2010, 11:14:25 AM
^^ Looks like there weren't any plows or salt trucks along that stretch.  How well does Germany plow/salt its autobahns?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: yanksfan6129 on March 12, 2010, 03:56:14 PM
That's what those $#%! get for going 85 miles per hour...
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2010, 04:15:13 PM
I think this section is limited to 75 or 80 mph. Busy 4-lane Autobahns are often limited to 75 or 80, depending on state. That said, winter tires are de facto obligatory in Germany, but they also give a false sense of safety. People get audacious.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mightyace on March 12, 2010, 04:58:26 PM
I noticed that some of the windshields of the wrecked vehicles have snow on them, so at least some of the snow happened after the wreck.  In other words, the conditions in the photo may not have been the same as what it was when the accident occurred.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on March 12, 2010, 05:18:05 PM
Did that crash happen in the last day or two? Here it's been several days since we've had wintry conditions. What gets me with crashes there is the severity of the damage as the cars are all over the place. I dread to think the insurance costs of that lot.

In the first picture it appears almost every car is a Beemer if you include the Mini. The local repair shop is going to be busy over the coming days/weeks :cool:
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on March 12, 2010, 05:47:50 PM
It happened just this morning (European time).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on March 13, 2010, 08:36:56 AM
Do the Germans have a bare-pavement policy?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: algorerhythms on July 18, 2010, 02:56:18 PM
Imagine the fury that would result if something like this were attempted on a busy Interstate highway... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10676728)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 18, 2010, 02:57:46 PM
Quote from: algorerhythms on July 18, 2010, 02:56:18 PM
Imagine the fury that would result if something like this were attempted on a busy Interstate highway... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10676728)

my level of forgiveness is directly proportional to the quantity of beer available at this party.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on July 18, 2010, 10:47:18 PM
Did anyone get to see the massive party/festival that took place on the autobahn today?  I wouldn't know about it if I weren't informed by BBC News.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10678074
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Bickendan on July 19, 2010, 02:58:20 AM
Quote from: algorerhythms on July 18, 2010, 02:56:18 PM
Imagine the fury that would result if something like this were attempted on a busy Interstate highway... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10676728)
Something similar happens every year in Portland. On I-5 and I-405.

It's the Bridge Pedal -- and the entirety of southbound I-405 gets shut down.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Brandon on July 19, 2010, 08:43:25 AM
Quote from: algorerhythms on July 18, 2010, 02:56:18 PM
Imagine the fury that would result if something like this were attempted on a busy Interstate highway... (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10676728)

Huh?  Every Labor Day, I-75 gets half shut down for over 5 miles so people can walk on it.
Then there's Bike the Drive in Chicago on busy Lake Shore Drive.  On a Sunday morning, the road is shut down so people can bicycle it.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on July 19, 2010, 09:02:40 AM
Well, this road closure was 40 miles...
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Alps on July 19, 2010, 08:14:08 PM
Quote from: Chris on July 19, 2010, 09:02:40 AM
Well, this road closure was 40 miles...
And with 3 million people walking on it, traffic along the corridor was probably plenty light for the day.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on July 20, 2010, 04:06:48 AM
It is summer vacation in Germany, and it was a Sunday. However, A40 usually carries around 120,000 vehicles per day and is considered the most problematic Autobahn in all of Germany. It's called "the biggest parking lot of Germany".

A40 is among the most urban freeways you can find in Europe, it runs depressed, no shoulders, a lightrail in the median, tall apartments and skyscrapers around it. I really need to make a video there in the city of Essen.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mightyace on July 28, 2010, 06:17:04 PM
Quote from: Chris on July 20, 2010, 04:06:48 AM
a lightrail in the median

:hmmm: By lightrail, do you mean the modern version of trolleys/tramways (transit) or a lightweight (read guardrails) in the middle separating the lanes?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: aswnl on July 28, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
The first.
There's also a part of the A40 with a "Spurbus" (automatic guided bus) in the median:

Lightrail:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autobahnatlas-online.de%2FBildergalerie%2FA40_005_Vor_AS_E-Frohnhsn.jpg&hash=5eee4390e11d010d18f6d9ed30eaeed631156130)

Spurbus:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fcommons%2Fthumb%2F8%2F89%2FSpurbus_Essen1.jpg%2F300px-Spurbus_Essen1.jpg&hash=64ea14dc51c8814a79141702b9359655d896917c)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on July 28, 2010, 08:05:31 PM
I like the idea of putting transit in the medians of roads.  It saves money (the ROW is already owned), and minimal modifications to the road are needed.  Of course, the median would have to be wide enough. 
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mightyace on July 28, 2010, 11:41:50 PM
Quote from: aswnl on July 28, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
There's also a part of the A40 with a "Spurbus" (automatic guided bus) in the median:

What is the point of this versus a rail line?  I see the concrete "tracks" (guideways) in the ground.  IMHO A railcar is less likely to get off track (derail) than one of those buses.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Alps on July 29, 2010, 12:06:22 AM
Quote from: aswnl on July 28, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
The first.
There's also a part of the A40 with a "Spurbus" (automatic guided bus) in the median:

Lightrail:


Spurbus:


Question:
How well do these four-lane urban freeways work, especially during rush hour?  I'm under the impression Autobahnen and Italian Autostrada are generally two lanes each way, whereas some other countries (like the Netherlands) have more six to eight lane freeways in their midst.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on July 29, 2010, 01:05:19 AM
Quote from: AlpsROADS on July 29, 2010, 12:06:22 AM
Question:
How well do these four-lane urban freeways work, especially during rush hour?  I'm under the impression Autobahnen and Italian Autostrada are generally two lanes each way, whereas some other countries (like the Netherlands) have more six to eight lane freeways in their midst.

Just as many urban autobahns are six or more lanes wide as are freeways/motorways in other countries.

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on July 29, 2010, 03:22:38 AM
This Autobahn is the biggest parking lot of Germany. It needs 6, but better 8 lanes. If they really want to improve things, they should bring the transit facility underground and pave the median for extra lanes.

However, I have to add there are 4 east-west freeways within ~10 miles in this area, altogether with 20 - 24 lanes depending on location. But this A40 is the most problematic one.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: aswnl on July 29, 2010, 05:12:30 AM
Quote from: mightyace on July 28, 2010, 11:41:50 PMWhat is the point of this versus a rail line?  I see the concrete "tracks" (guideways) in the ground.  IMHO A railcar is less likely to get off track (derail) than one of those buses.
Lightrail needs a complete railinfrastructure for only 1 line. The "guided bus tracks" are laid for the major section of many buslines, which operate as a normal bus when they leave the special tracks, making a vast network possible without laying railtracks everywhere.

By the way: if the median would have been used for extra lanes instead of this public transport, there would be significantly less traffic jams on the German A40.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: shoptb1 on July 29, 2010, 09:48:12 AM
Quote from: Chris on July 29, 2010, 03:22:38 AM

However, I have to add there are 4 east-west freeways within ~10 miles in this area, altogether with 20 - 24 lanes depending on location. But this A40 is the most problematic one.

The Rhine-Ruhr area is probably one of the most densely-populated and congested areas in Europe, and probably the world.  With 4435 km² and a population of some 7.3 million, it is the largest urban agglomeration in Germany. There are a lot of autobahns in the region, but none are 8-lane.  Traffic congestion is an everyday occurrence, but far less compared to Randstad, a metro area in the Netherlands.

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on July 29, 2010, 11:44:18 AM
It is actually not as congested as many people think. Sure, there are bottlenecks, but gridlocks like in Paris, London or Randstad are pretty rare.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Bickendan on July 29, 2010, 06:39:51 PM
Quote from: aswnl on July 29, 2010, 05:12:30 AM
Quote from: mightyace on July 28, 2010, 11:41:50 PMWhat is the point of this versus a rail line?  I see the concrete "tracks" (guideways) in the ground.  IMHO A railcar is less likely to get off track (derail) than one of those buses.
Lightrail needs a complete railinfrastructure for only 1 line. The "guided bus tracks" are laid for the major section of many buslines, which operate as a normal bus when they leave the special tracks, making a vast network possible without laying railtracks everywhere.

I was thinking this. I wonder how feasible it would be to create a hybrid ROW -- that is, essentially the SpurBus running on the light-rail tracks.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: english si on July 30, 2010, 07:36:01 AM
Quote from: Chris on July 29, 2010, 11:44:18 AM
It is actually not as congested as many people think. Sure, there are bottlenecks, but gridlocks like in... London... are pretty rare.
How can London have 'gridlock' - there's no grid? :P

While they aren't wide, at least the Rhine-Ruhr area has freeways. South London (taking it as Greater London south of the Thames, pop 2917900, area 645.78 and thus a density 4 times that of the Rhine-Ruhr area) is a fairly large, highly populated desert of roads - the only freeways are at the edge (A2 and A3, though the A206 along the Thames and a bit of the A20 can also count, plus the M25 isn't too far away) - in fact even at grade divided highways are hard to find. North London is a bit better, and at least has some radials and the north circular is nearly decent (some bits are iffy).

If you want to see what must be the worst major radial in the developed world, try the A23 through south London. The worst orbital is even worse - the South Circular Road (A205) - basically a set of roads declared to be major in the 1920s and the only work done on them since is a collection of one-way systems at some of the busier areas, making it even more confusing to follow.

The Rhine-Ruhr area at least has freeways and stuff to get onto, even if they aren't wide enough - it's not shopping streets and such like that are main routes.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Brandon on July 30, 2010, 12:14:41 PM
Quote from: aswnl on July 28, 2010, 07:06:34 PM
The first.
There's also a part of the A40 with a "Spurbus" (automatic guided bus) in the median:

Reminds me of the Kennedy, Eisenhower, and Dan Ryan Expressways here (albiet with heavy rail rapid transit in the median instead).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on April 08, 2011, 05:15:49 PM
8 people were killed and almost 100 injured in a massive crash on Autobahn A19 in Northern Germany during a dust storm. A large fire broke out. Over 250 firefighters and emergency personnel attended to the scene.

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201322-galleryV9-amsg.jpg&hash=3b4ee3d60456035fc03ea1ac53a05aa2b139a9e6)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201411-galleryV9-btyv.jpg&hash=22971882710d678fdfbb63fe8bd824fbafa5cffb)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201362-galleryV9-lfmm.jpg&hash=d4ea13ba9cdd6f50c6bbe4ab4fd302a8d5246458)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201403-galleryV9-opaw.jpg&hash=c1cdc8093e479b1c718aab2921647cb13e347a83)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201339-galleryV9-xlrd.jpg&hash=c6d1dc6f0af0454ec358e900b5dd3eb7ac7c93cc)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201338-galleryV9-zinp.jpg&hash=da96baf9fc0c16617220e99316ef88d601d72daf)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201347-galleryV9-gpkv.jpg&hash=d73d45561fa856ef271128c3a4179316800bc24f)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201336-galleryV9-kmyo.jpg&hash=2f706f9be568070b54057c3392c64d8185c9c3a9)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201346-galleryV9-rhwd.jpg&hash=3c3a482f6b7426cfc32e50291013c38f11aa79bd)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201345-galleryV9-xkuu.jpg&hash=fac75a506bd36c34c05eac505096eb4c096b4a9b)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201343-galleryV9-buei.jpg&hash=aae2a5fe4c1fbbd1eb613bd9df5a4c9d3d790fec)

(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiegel.de%2Fimages%2Fimage-201472-galleryV9-wbob.jpg&hash=b2b10739847028ce96095b7ccd86e11cd83cd408)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: iwishiwascanadian on April 08, 2011, 05:41:01 PM
Wow, that's crazy, it seemed like something out of the UAE or something.  Where did all of the dust come from anyway?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: conekicker on April 08, 2011, 06:06:12 PM
Ouch, you wouldn't want to be the first emergency service vehicle to arrive at that one! Thankfully, such large incidents are relatively rare. I wonder how much damage the road took - burned asphalt, wrecked safety barrier, etc.?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: 3467 on April 08, 2011, 09:32:32 PM
My mother was born in the Ruhr valley many years ago (1920s) and even though she left in WW2 ,she never recalls a dust storm in Germany but does recall transit lines in the middle of the new autobahns. One was near her house
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on April 08, 2011, 11:13:56 PM
This area was nowhere near the Ruhr Valley, it is near the Baltic coast in former East Germany, just south of Rostok.  The dust is from from recently-plowed nearby farm fields and a month+ long period of drought.

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on April 09, 2011, 03:59:36 AM
Quote from: 3467 on April 08, 2011, 09:32:32 PM
My mother was born in the Ruhr valley many years ago (1920s) and even though she left in WW2 ,she never recalls a dust storm in Germany but does recall transit lines in the middle of the new autobahns. One was near her house

A40 in Essen has an S-bahn in the median. It also happens on A100 in Berlin, but otherwise it's rare. These were built in the 60's though.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: pctech on June 04, 2012, 11:19:27 AM
I've always liked the signage of the Autobahns. I think the up facing arrows are better depicting the direction/destination and splitting of lanes. Can this be used on interstates here in the U.S.? Is it allowed in the MUTCD?

Mark
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: NE2 on June 04, 2012, 11:43:55 AM
Quote from: pctech on June 04, 2012, 11:19:27 AM
I've always liked the signage of the Autobahns. I think the up facing arrows are better depicting the direction/destination and splitting of lanes. Can this be used on interstates here in the U.S.? Is it allowed in the MUTCD?
Actually, yes. The most recent MUTCD allows (and in some cases requires) these "arrow-per-lane" signs. http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/htm/2009/part2/part2e.htm#section2E21
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on June 04, 2012, 03:08:55 PM
Re: the large up-arrows, I think the German design is better. The MUTCD spec has too much wasted space at the bottom of the sign. This will result in some unusually large sign panels. But it's only the first attempt in America at this type of design. The Germans have been using this set-up for many years and have refined it.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2012, 03:32:09 PM
Quote from: Chris on August 20, 2009, 01:03:17 PM
Reichsautobahnen also extended into what is modern-day Poland, such as the A4 to Wrocław which was horrible in 2003 (longest stairs of Europe due to the gaps between the concrete) but renovated in 2006. As of today, no more bad-quality freeways exist in Poland.


this is not correct, as of November, 2011.  the first few miles of A4 in Poland are, I believe, the original 1943 concrete mainline and cobblestone RI-RO exits.  speed limit is 50 km/h and that is pushing it.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on June 04, 2012, 03:37:18 PM
I think you mean the A18 in Poland? The border crossing of A4 with Germany near Görlitz/Zgorzelec didn't open until 1994. The A18/DK18 runs from the Olszyna border crossing (towards Berlin) to A4 near the village of Krzyżowa. The north/westbound direction is in good condition, the east/southbound is not (and it doesn't have motorway/freeway status).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2012, 03:55:55 PM
you are right, it is A18.  I had misremembered.

I did not pay much attention to the westbound carriageway.  I wonder if that is a unique situation in the world - a road where one carriageway is autobahn status, and the opposite carriageway is not.

looking at Google Street View, it seems that just before the German border, westbound trucks are all stopped, occupying all three lanes.  I would assume the trucks are at rest due to the German ban on Sunday commercial traffic ... but what about car traffic, are they expected to pass the trucks by driving on the median or shoulder?

the A15 autobahn in Germany, between A13 and the Poland border, is pretty narrow and old-looking as well.  The road surface is well maintained, but the layout might be as old as the 40s.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on June 04, 2012, 04:07:38 PM
The imagery of that section dates back to 2000, when Poland was not in the EU yet, and there were strict border controls with Germany, waiting times for trucks were many hours back in those days (even a day or more was not uncommon). Usually the cars bypass the trucks. Such waiting lines of miles and miles can still be seen at the Belarussian and Russian borders (the waiting line at the Finnish-Russian border once reached 50 kilometers).

About A13, it was constructed in 1938-1940 with one carriageway (the eastbound one), but all bridges were prepared for 2x2, but the war prevented any further construction apparently. The westbound carriageway didn't open until the 1990's.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 04, 2012, 04:18:45 PM
really?  even the higher-resolution imagery stamped "(c) 2011" is 2000 vintage? 

I am sure glad I took A13 and A18 eastbound!
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on June 05, 2012, 06:36:09 AM
The border crossing is just at the edge of two different satellite images. As Poland and Germany are currently both in Schengen, there are no border controls either way. I suppose the Sunday truck driving bans are not much of a problem due to the relatively low volumes at this border crossing, and the giant truck parking area to the north.

The border station has been demolished for through traffic, as is evidenced by this photo:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.panoramio.com%2Fphotos%2F1920x1280%2F61747458.jpg&hash=c517e6d7604482abec7053667b4f3d0afecfcf70)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on June 07, 2012, 05:46:38 AM
Some observations about that last picture. The road surface deteriorates on the Polish side and those streetlights have a very communist look about them, maybe it's the 45 degree angle of the brackets.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 07, 2012, 11:05:05 AM
when was that photo taken?

I finally uploaded some photos from Nov 2, 2011 here:

https://www.aaroads.com/blog/2012/06/07/the-last-reichsautobahn/

here is the photo I got, with at least five "capitalist style" light gantries added on the German side.

(//www.aaroads.com/shields/blog/photos/121151.jpg)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on June 07, 2012, 05:44:18 PM
The lanterns look like Trafficvisions, a fairly common design used in Britain. Looking at the perspective of both pictures I'd imagine the five columns in Agentsteel's picture are the same as in Chris', it's just that Chris' picture was taken much further ahead. Trafficvisions aren't exactly a new design as many British examples were installed in the late 90's.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 07, 2012, 06:06:40 PM
you're right; Chris's photo appears to show the bottom of the stem of the last post in Germany.  his photo is taken almost exactly at the border, while mine is taken from further away.  also, mine is zoomed in more, so the perspective is different and the poles appear to be closer together in mine.

so from that, it makes it - upon my first glance - look like the posts were not there in Germany when Chris took the photo, but a new investigation shows that the one that would be visible is, indeed, visible.  so the German posts may very well be just as old as the Polish ones, even if they have a more modern-looking design.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: RoadWarrior56 on June 07, 2012, 08:46:22 PM
Here is a link to a website in German that has numerous pictures of an old Autobahn that is now in Poland, I think the one discussed in this thread.  There used to be a really good site called "Abandoned Autobahns in Poland", that was active about 10 years ago, but it appears to have been taken off the web.

http://www.berlinka.pcp.pl/berlinka_de.htm
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 07, 2012, 09:22:33 PM
the Berlinka is a different road than A15/18.  Berlinka goes east with a bit of a north tilt out of Berlin towards Gdansk, Poland (aka Danzig), and Kaliningrad Oblast, Russia (aka Konigsberg). 

I can vaguely parse the German, but the Polish pages on the site are pretty incomprehensible to me, so I think I'll run them through an auto-translate.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 07, 2012, 09:31:49 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.berlinka.pcp.pl%2FKreuzburg1991.jpg&hash=4993b46c68248a570a6b20a8cc9f7b3ce8be3487)

now that is a Reichsautobahn!  1991 photo, though.  I believe a fair bit of the Berlinka has been modernized in recent years, so very little of that kind of abandoned infrastructure is still around.

I titled my blog post about highway 18 as "the last Reichsautobahn" because I believe that 80km or so stretch replete with lots of old cobblestone exits is the only extensive surviving stretch of 1930s-1940s infrastructure.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on June 08, 2012, 05:02:32 AM
Some "impossible" exits and entrances in Germany:

A8 Salzburg - Rosenheim:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2488%2F3848803853_cf7fe7d346_z.jpg%3Fzz%3D1&hash=7752627ae1bb0d04dbf01cf54fbbcfd6eb0466da) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/3848803853/)
pic 745 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/3848803853/) by Chriszwolle (http://www.flickr.com/people/chriszwolle/), on Flickr

A4 near Jena:
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2579%2F3840112542_60bbf7381c_z.jpg%3Fzz%3D1&hash=0179a6c83ddfc06755d69c30a6b379dc4ca092a9) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/3840112542/)
img 263 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/3840112542/) by Chriszwolle (http://www.flickr.com/people/chriszwolle/), on Flickr

A8 near Neunkirchen
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.staticflickr.com%2F2723%2F4558222793_0ebdbf9a88_z.jpg&hash=75ff7bd695b9351e2661f71fb7983760a1367d95) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4558222793/)
A8-33 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/4558222793/) by Chriszwolle (http://www.flickr.com/people/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 10:06:00 AM
that last photo reminds me to ask - what do the U-numbers mean?  two signs: U8, and U12/U13: what does that mean?  I never quite could glark that from context when I was in Germany.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 10:34:27 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 10:06:00 AMthat last photo reminds me to ask - what do the U-numbers mean?  two signs: U8, and U12/U13: what does that mean?  I never quite could glark that from context when I was in Germany.

"U" stands for Umleitung--German for "detour"--and these signs are trailblazers for permanent marked detour routes which are available for use when certain lengths of Autobahn have to be closed in an emergency.  A similar approach to signing permanent detours is used in Austria.  There are separate orange-on-white signs (the orange design being a pentagon regular about its long axis which is heavier on one end) which are arrow signs for workzone detours and are called Umlenkungspfeil in German.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on June 08, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 10:34:27 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 10:06:00 AMthat last photo reminds me to ask - what do the U-numbers mean?  two signs: U8, and U12/U13: what does that mean?  I never quite could glark that from context when I was in Germany.

"U" stands for Umleitung--German for "detour"--and these signs are trailblazers for permanent marked detour routes which are available for use when certain lengths of Autobahn have to be closed in an emergency.  A similar approach to signing permanent detours is used in Austria.  There are separate orange-on-white signs (the orange design being a pentagon regular about its long axis which is heavier on one end) which are arrow signs for workzone detours and are called Umlenkungspfeil in German.

Here, I'm seeing increasing numbers of 'ALTERNATE' major highway route markers on nearby side roads, the same concept.

Can I safely assume that those substandard autobahn entrances and exits are on roads that have not been recently rebuilt?

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Truvelo on June 08, 2012, 11:34:05 AM
Quote from: Chris on June 08, 2012, 05:02:32 AM
Some "impossible" exits and entrances in Germany:

At least you don't have to come to a complete stop like those on the Merritt Parkway where there's a stop sign at the end of each on-ramp.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: NE2 on June 08, 2012, 11:41:18 AM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 08, 2012, 11:07:44 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 10:34:27 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 10:06:00 AMthat last photo reminds me to ask - what do the U-numbers mean?  two signs: U8, and U12/U13: what does that mean?  I never quite could glark that from context when I was in Germany.

"U" stands for Umleitung--German for "detour"--and these signs are trailblazers for permanent marked detour routes which are available for use when certain lengths of Autobahn have to be closed in an emergency.  A similar approach to signing permanent detours is used in Austria.  There are separate orange-on-white signs (the orange design being a pentagon regular about its long axis which is heavier on one end) which are arrow signs for workzone detours and are called Umlenkungspfeil in German.

Here, I'm seeing increasing numbers of 'ALTERNATE' major highway route markers on nearby side roads, the same concept.

It's much closer to Pennsylvania's colored detours.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 12:20:54 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on June 08, 2012, 11:07:44 AMCan I safely assume that those substandard autobahn entrances and exits are on roads that have not been recently rebuilt?

Generally, yes.  The usual giveaway is the lack of a full hard shoulder (1930's standards called only for a narrow paved strip on either side of the traveled way, whose German name was frequently translated to "bankette" in British publications).  The Autobahnen shown in Chris' pictures have been overlaid with asphalt, so the original Portland cement concrete pavement is no longer visible, but otherwise they have their original 1930's cross-sections, as is demonstrated by the lack of lateral clearance between shoulder stripes and roadside safety hardware.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 08, 2012, 02:38:42 PM
Quote from: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 12:20:54 PM(1930's standards called only for a narrow paved strip on either side of the traveled way, whose German name was frequently translated to "bankette" in British publications)

do you happen to know what this German word is?  I'm just asking out of idle etymological curiosity.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on June 08, 2012, 03:58:43 PM
The term I am familiar with is Leitstreifen, with a full hard shoulder being called Standspur (at least in colloquial usage).  German Wikipedia has a page on the elements of a typical highway cross-section:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra%C3%9Fenquerschnitt

It insists that Seitenstreifen is the correct term for a full shoulder and uses the adverb fälschlich ("wrongly") to describe the popular use of Standspur ("standing lane"), Notspur ("emergency lane"), and Pannenstreifen ("breakdown lane") to refer to this highway feature.  (I think this level of pedantry is comparable to English speakers calling each other pond scum for using the word expressway to refer to freeways.)

For roads which do not have a full hard shoulder, modern German terminology makes a distinction between the hard strip immediately adjacent to the traveled way which is paved (Randstreifen) and a vegetated verge which is relatively level up to a ditch lip (Bankett).  1930's publications used the word Grünbankett to refer to the latter.  British publications (notably the Road Research Laboratory's reports from postwar reconnaissance of the German Autobahnen) used the cognate English word "bankette" just to refer to the paved hard strip--"verge" was used instead to refer to the Grünbankett.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on June 11, 2012, 02:32:55 PM
thanks!  my German is not so great that I can read most of that, but it is sometimes interesting to attempt to break down the German words into roots and translate those literally to English.  for example, I know what "straßen" are, but "querschnitt" looks to me like "quer and "schnitt", neither of which I can translate.

(also: German alphabet has "q" in it?)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on June 11, 2012, 03:02:35 PM
I probably know even less German than you do, but the nice thing about road-related terminology is that when it is accompanied by diagrams, it more or less explains itself.  Google Translate provides multiple glosses (dict.leo.org style) for both quer (adverb with the general meaning of "crosswise," possibly a loanword from some other European language given the qu part) and Schnitt (noun meaning "section," with considerable semantic overlap with English "section"--cutaway of a three-dimensional object, excerpt from a written work, etc.).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on June 11, 2012, 04:12:26 PM
Yep. The full name is a Regelquerschnitt (RQ) which is a cross section of a road. The standard cross section is RQ 29,5 for a 4-lane Autobahn. The German Wikipedia has more on it:

Richtlinien für die Anlage von Straßen — Querschnitt (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richtlinien_f%C3%BCr_die_Anlage_von_Stra%C3%9Fen_%E2%80%93_Querschnitt)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Special K on July 03, 2012, 11:32:11 AM
Just had my first experience with driving the autobahn last week.  Cologne to Munich via A3 and A9.  I thought it might be fun, but it just ended up being exhausting.  So many vehicle speeds to be aware of.  Constantly looking ahead for slower traffic that might pull into my lane and looking back for traffic that might run me over.  I've never changed lanes so often in my life.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on July 03, 2012, 03:28:44 PM
I have the same feeling when doing a long-distance trip in Germany. Especially if you just want to drive about 130 km/h (80 mph) you're constantly sandwiched between trucks and slower cars and BMW's, Mercedeses and Audi's. Driving fast is fun for about an hour or two, but on longer hauls it's tiring.

What day did you drive? Usually Fridays are the worst but all work days have high truck volumes. Saturdays and Sundays are generally better as long as you avoid a few busy Saturdays in July and early August.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Quote from: Chris on July 03, 2012, 03:28:44 PMDriving fast is fun for about an hour or two,

at which point... you're there!  :sombrero:

I was comfortable doing about 170-180 km/h, at which point I think I found a good balance between slow and fast vehicles.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Special K on July 05, 2012, 08:00:22 AM
Quote from: agentsteel53 on July 03, 2012, 03:32:57 PM
Quote from: Chris on July 03, 2012, 03:28:44 PMDriving fast is fun for about an hour or two,

at which point... you're there!  :sombrero:

I was comfortable doing about 170-180 km/h, at which point I think I found a good balance between slow and fast vehicles.

We traveled on a Tuesday.  I found that 180km/h was still an inadequate speed to maintain in the left lane.  Plus, it seemed that any time I could let loose, there was another interchange looming ahead with another speed reduction.  I tended to maintain 150 in the center lane and then latch on to a line of speed demons after they passed on the left.

I should also mention the difficulty with reading guide and warning signs at these speeds, especially when some of the text is ~6" high and often there is foliage that comes right up to the guardrail, obscuring the sign's message until you're almost on top of the sign.

The interesting thing was being passed by the ICE train when we paralleled the tracks for a short time.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on October 09, 2017, 02:28:24 PM
A section of A20 collapsed in Northern Germany. It was built on a bog using piling. The Autobahn started to subside and they closed one half soon after it. But before the investigation was completed, the whole thing collapsed. The thought is that the piles have broken off. This section is only 12 years old.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DLsuHUSW4AAdpH3.jpg:large)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on October 09, 2017, 07:46:13 PM
I always thought the Germans built better than that. I'd expect this on the New York Thruway.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Rothman on October 10, 2017, 12:38:26 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on October 09, 2017, 07:46:13 PM
I always thought the Germans built better than that. I'd expect this on the New York Thruway.
Heh.  After the Schoharie bridge collapse, I believe the Thruway updated its procedures to prevent just a thing like this from happening.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on August 05, 2018, 04:17:20 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw3ijj78E7o


DSZumaher does a film of the A9 in Germany.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
Quote from: bing101 on August 05, 2018, 04:17:20 PM
DSZumaher does a film of the A9 in Germany.

The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Road Hog on August 05, 2018, 07:55:41 PM
Having lived in Deutschland for 5 years of driving age, I'll tell you autobahns are slightly overrated by Americans. They're great freeways for sure, but still dominated by old-school cloverleafs. And most people still cruise at 80 mph – never once got my doors blown by a 911 in the left lane.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 05, 2018, 08:24:51 PM
V-e-r-y I-n-t-e-r-e-s-t-i-n-g...........
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 06, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 06, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
I don't think full-width left shoulders are default provision on Chinese expressways either.  At the moment I am going through a set of construction drawings for a new segment of expressway north of Chongqing, and the narrowest typical cross-section calls for vestigial paved left shoulders with a mall 2 m wide between guardrail that is to be planted with shrubbery.  Since the topography is mountainous and the route will have a number of tunnels and valley viaducts, there are some segments with separated carriageways and these too have narrow left shoulders.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on August 06, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.

And I have zero doubt that USA interstates are held in a similar regard by many German road and driving enthusiasts, including dreaming of trips to the USA just to drive them.

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 06, 2018, 11:18:51 AM
This recently expanded expressway from Chengdu to Pengzhou in Sichuan also features no left shoulders:

(https://i.imgur.com/rnHCUmW.jpg)

A2 Utrecht - Amsterdam in the Netherlands does feature left shoulders, pretty wide ones as well. These are probably designed to add a sixth lane if traffic volumes require it. Present-day volumes are between 190,000 and 200,000 vehicles per day, it is the busiest intercity freeway in Europe.

(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/906/41812250442_2a8f2bee54_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/26GNHkG)
A2 Utrecht - Breukelen (https://flic.kr/p/26GNHkG) by European Roads (https://www.flickr.com/photos/chriszwolle/), on Flickr
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Joe The Dragon on August 06, 2018, 12:48:47 PM
Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 11:18:51 AM
This recently expanded expressway from Chengdu to Pengzhou in Sichuan also features no left shoulders:

(https://i.imgur.com/rnHCUmW.jpg)



Different speed limits per lane?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on August 06, 2018, 01:16:28 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 06, 2018, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 06, 2018, 08:47:14 AM
Quote from: Kniwt on August 05, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
The thing that stands out most to me is the near-total (and sometimes total) lack of a left shoulder. At autobahn speeds, that seems somewhat ... unnerving.

Left shoulders appear to be a North American thing. Very few freeways in Europe have them.

And I have zero doubt that USA interstates are held in a similar regard by many German road and driving enthusiasts, including dreaming of trips to the USA just to drive them.

Mike
It's ironic that speed limits are so much lower in the US when engineering standards are so much higher.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 06, 2018, 08:55:10 PM
Vdeane, except for the question of left shoulders, in what ways are American engineering standards higher than European standards? I've read a lot about the Autobahn System and it seems to me their engineering is more painstaking than ours, at least in what was West Germany. The East is another story. The Germans are willing to spend more money for a better road. Our Interstates are as cheaply built as the states can get away with and the New York Thruway is a prime example. Remember the Schoharie Creek bridge disaster or was that before your time? The New Jersey Turnpike however, is a notable exception to American practice and is probably the closest thing in America to the Autobahns.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 06, 2018, 09:22:08 PM
German standards for horizontal curvature on the Autobahn are much stricter than those that apply to Interstates.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on August 06, 2018, 09:29:30 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 06, 2018, 08:55:10 PM
Vdeane, except for the question of left shoulders, in what ways are American engineering standards higher than European standards? I've read a lot about the Autobahn System and it seems to me their engineering is more painstaking than ours, at least in what was West Germany. The East is another story. The Germans are willing to spend more money for a better road. Our Interstates are as cheaply built as the states can get away with and the New York Thruway is a prime example. Remember the Schoharie Creek bridge disaster or was that before your time? The New Jersey Turnpike however, is a notable exception to American practice and is probably the closest thing in America to the Autobahns.
I wasn't talking about pavement depth and whatnot (though Michigan tried using a Euro-style roadbed for a while and it didn't work... I suspect weather/climate is a bigger factor, since Europe has MUCH milder winters than we do), but about roadway geometry.  Take a look at the service plaza in the video, for example.  You take what is practically a 90 degree turn and then are immediately on the autobahn, with a merge area that is, at best, the size of the merge areas on much straighter ramps on roads built in the 50s here, for a road that probably has a speed limit of 81 mph if it has one at all.  Much narrower median, too.

As for the Schoharie Creek Bridge collapse... my parents weren't even married yet when that happened!  Also too young to have even the slightest clue where the boundary between East Germany and West Germany was, other than Berlin being on the East side.

It's for the short merge area and narrow to non-existent shoulders that I would find European freeways VERY intimidating to drive.  The fact that the signage is completely alien to what I'm used to (in particular, having to navigate by control cities rather than route number/direction) doesn't help.  Italian autostradas in particular look like the what the interstates would look like if they were built to the design standards of the Pulaski Skyway.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 06, 2018, 09:41:31 PM
Hey, (LOL) the Pulaski Skyway was a modern engineering marvel in its day! (1932) But seriously vdeane, some of your points are well taken. And I agree with you about the different signing system used on the Autobahn. It is a different orientation than our system and I actually think ours is better.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 07, 2018, 03:21:54 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 06, 2018, 09:22:08 PM
German standards for horizontal curvature on the Autobahn are much stricter than those that apply to Interstates.

There is still some Reichsautobahn alignment here and there. Sometimes they just expanded the existing road without major changes in alignment. And then there are still a a few original 1930s style Reichsautobahnen remaining, most notably portions of A8 in Southern Germany. They have no shoulders and tight curves.

From a Dutch perspective, it's a bit perplexing to see the unlimited speed with the design choices of German Autobahns. Interchanges are designed with much lower design standards in Germany than in the Netherlands, tight curves, 40-50 km/h ramps, no shoulders on ramps or acceleration lanes, two-way traffic with no dividing barrier on ramps, etc. Some of the design standards appear to be stuck in the 1950s. Germany still builds Autobahns brand new with features that were eliminated from Dutch motorway design 50 years ago.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
^^
The most perplexing part of the Autobahn, from my perspective, is the use of cloverleafs at so many junctions. I don't know if they're still installed, but I think there might be more in Germany per motorway-lane mile than in the US. Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

IMO, for a country that seems to despise the automobile, the Netherlands builds some wicked-crazy freeways. Probably some of the nicest in Europe. Too bad NL doesn't have any plans for unlimited sections! Maybe 140 limits should be considered.

Unless I'm mistaken, a full width shoulder is not required on Interstates with only two lanes in each direction (only three and up). In this way, our standards are not that far off from Germany, except for horizontal alignment and pavement thickness standards (two, ultimately, very important things). I believe the pavement quality of TX-130 near Austin has been called into question, but despite its 85 (135 km/h) limit, it only has basic inside shoulders. A very wide median, ultimately, but narrow shoulders.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Scott5114 on August 07, 2018, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Rothman on August 07, 2018, 09:32:10 AM
Regarding the Schoharie bridge collapse, that was not due to being cheap, but rather just poor engineering and not supporting the pedestals deep enough into the crappy soil under the bridge.  I would consider that mistake much more grievous than simply choosing the cheapest alternative, which may actually be a good thing if chosen properly.

I also think of the Big Dig roof collapse, which was due to a contractor going too cheap on the materials involved and not meeting the specs.  There is a circle of Hell waiting for them.  Again, not about cheapest viable alternative, but, in this case, insidious rogue cost-cutting.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jemacedo9 on August 07, 2018, 10:33:51 AM
Quote from: vdeane on August 06, 2018, 09:29:30 PM
It's for the short merge area and narrow to non-existent shoulders that I would find European freeways VERY intimidating to drive. 

Come south to PA for a little while and build up your tolerance...!   :D
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 07, 2018, 11:30:44 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 07, 2018, 03:21:54 AM
Quote from: J N Winkler on August 06, 2018, 09:22:08 PMGerman standards for horizontal curvature on the Autobahn are much stricter than those that apply to Interstates.

There is still some Reichsautobahn alignment here and there. Sometimes they just expanded the existing road without major changes in alignment. And then there are still a a few original 1930s style Reichsautobahnen remaining, most notably portions of A8 in Southern Germany. They have no shoulders and tight curves.

I have personally never driven the A8, so I don't really understand what people are talking about when they say it has tight curves.  The 1933 engineering standards called for minimum horizontal curve radii of 1800 m (1200 m), 1000 m (800 m), and 600 m (400 m) in flat, rolling, and mountainous terrain respectively (values in parentheses refer to absolute minimum values that could be used only exceptionally).  In comparison, Interstate standards in 1944 called for maximum curvatures ranging from 2.5° to 9° depending on design speed and terrain type--this corresponds to minimum radii of 200 m to 700 m.  So the A8 cannot be anywhere near as twisty as Interstates were permitted to be, unless exceptions even to the exceptions were granted for some reason.

In Germany, 1942 standards were stricter than in 1933, and I suspect the current standards are even stricter.  The US does have some facilities designed to better than Autobahn standards, such as the New Jersey Turnpike, but these are generally flat-country roads where an objective was to provide much more slack in the design than was called for in minimum standards.

Quote from: Chris on August 07, 2018, 03:21:54 AMFrom a Dutch perspective, it's a bit perplexing to see the unlimited speed with the design choices of German Autobahns. Interchanges are designed with much lower design standards in Germany than in the Netherlands, tight curves, 40-50 km/h ramps, no shoulders on ramps or acceleration lanes, two-way traffic with no dividing barrier on ramps, etc. Some of the design standards appear to be stuck in the 1950s. Germany still builds Autobahns brand new with features that were eliminated from Dutch motorway design 50 years ago.

I agree these features--especially the parsimonious provision of speed-change facilities--are hard to understand.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 07, 2018, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.

Wow. Not surprised at all. Even more embarrassing for me, since I'm a Choctaw Indian!
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Brandon on August 07, 2018, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 07, 2018, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.

Wow. Not surprised at all. Even more embarrassing for me, since I'm a Choctaw Indian!

What did you expect from the "CraIG CoUNty" state?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 03:09:29 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 07, 2018, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 07, 2018, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.

Wow. Not surprised at all. Even more embarrassing for me, since I'm a Choctaw Indian!

What did you expect from the "CraIG CoUNty" state?

Yeah, no shit. Although your comment reminds me that the only "new" one I knew of (until now) was the rebuilt 55/80 interchange outside Joliet. Sure, it was a cloverleaf before, but rebuilding it presented new opportunities for a new configuration. Kind of an IDiOT move, right?
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Brandon on August 07, 2018, 03:30:01 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 03:09:29 PM
Quote from: Brandon on August 07, 2018, 01:24:28 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 01:16:32 PM
Quote from: Scott5114 on August 07, 2018, 07:33:30 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

Oklahoma is still building them (are you surprised?). They put one in on the Durant bypass sometime after 2010.

Wow. Not surprised at all. Even more embarrassing for me, since I'm a Choctaw Indian!

What did you expect from the "CraIG CoUNty" state?

Yeah, no shit. Although your comment reminds me that the only "new" one I knew of (until now) was the rebuilt 55/80 interchange outside Joliet. Sure, it was a cloverleaf before, but rebuilding it presented new opportunities for a new configuration. Kind of an IDiOT move, right?

Yeah, that's IDOT for you.  Why fix it when we can just make the ramps a bit straighter?  There were those of us arguing that the interchange should have flyovers (even back when it was rebuilt in 2000 or so) from east 80 to north 55 and west 80 to south 55.  Now IDOT, in their infinite wisdom wants a flyover from south 55 to east 80.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 07, 2018, 08:26:09 PM
JNW, you made a reference to Interstate standards in 1944 in your above post. Is that maybe a typo? I'm sure you know the Interstate System wasn't legislated into existence until 1956. But thanks for an otherwise very informative post.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 07, 2018, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 07, 2018, 08:26:09 PMJNW, you made a reference to Interstate standards in 1944 in your above post. Is that maybe a typo? I'm sure you know the Interstate System wasn't legislated into existence until 1956. But thanks for an otherwise very informative post.

You are welcome.  The Interstate standards quoted ultimately come from the 1944 interregional highways report, and the Interstates were first authorized (but not funded) in the Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1944.  What happened in 1956 was agreement as to the ultimate form of the system to be built out and establishment of a dedicated funding stream for its construction.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 07, 2018, 10:08:06 PM
Okay JNW: thanks again. I had not known that history of Interstate planning.

As far as other above posts re: construction features of the Autobahns, I'm surprised to learn from some of the other posters about those antiquated design features of interchanges and Service Areas on the Autobahns. Once again the New Jersey Turnpike seems to do it best.

One area though where the Autobahns shine is in system-wide median barrier protection, with their double guide-rail design. Too many American Interstates (including the NY Thruway) were built in the 1950's and 60's with somewhat wide medians that were thought to provide enough of a buffer to deter crossover accidents. Regrettably that turned out not to be the case and numerous unnecessary fatalities have happened over the years. History has proven that even a narrower median with a Jersey Wall or steel guide rail is the more effective choice.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Revive 755 on August 07, 2018, 10:08:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
^^
The most perplexing part of the Autobahn, from my perspective, is the use of cloverleafs at so many junctions. I don't know if they're still installed, but I think there might be more in Germany per motorway-lane mile than in the US. Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

The interchange at the west end of MO 364 at US 40-US 61 in the St. Louis area counts as a recent install, although it would have been a 3/4 with a semi direct ramp for the EB to EB movement  if funding wasn't an issue.  There is a stub at the interchange for this unbuilt ramp. (https://goo.gl/maps/mPVJQywy7f32)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 08, 2018, 02:30:17 AM
Quote from: Revive 755 on August 07, 2018, 10:08:49 PM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 07, 2018, 05:15:27 AM
^^
The most perplexing part of the Autobahn, from my perspective, is the use of cloverleafs at so many junctions. I don't know if they're still installed, but I think there might be more in Germany per motorway-lane mile than in the US. Even here in the US, where cloverleafs ruled for so many years, I don't hear about new ones being installed almost ever. In fact, I don't know of any recent installs.

The interchange at the west end of MO 364 at US 40-US 61 in the St. Louis area counts as a recent install, although it would have been a 3/4 with a semi direct ramp for the EB to EB movement  if funding wasn't an issue.  There is a stub at the interchange for this unbuilt ramp. (https://goo.gl/maps/mPVJQywy7f32)

Damn! I didn't think that was gonna be the 'permanent' layout (didn't realize the flyover was cancelled, for the time being). Last I was in STL, the 364 didn't go that far west (it ended at Pitman Hill Rd), but knowing traffic in the city, I doubt the cloverleaf will wreak havoc anytime soon.




Looking around Germany, I realize there are slightly less cloverleafs than I originally thought. But they are definitely fans of loopy interchanges. There seem to be many 3/4 cloverleafs with one high-speed ramp.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 08, 2018, 08:33:20 AM
The outside shoulder on the Autobahn is also a bit narrow, in many cases only 2.5 meters (8.2 ft). This, together with many stretches having guardrails almost on the edge of the shoulder, results into broken down trucks standing really close to traffic. Serious crashes where traffic collides with a stopped vehicle are a rather frequent occurrence.

It doesn't help that some drivers park their truck overnight on the shoulder near rest area due to a lack of parking. There is a severe truck parking shortage. They are expanding many rest area with additional truck parking but it isn't enough. The lengthy procedures don't help either.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 08, 2018, 08:12:55 PM
Really, only eight ft. shoulders on the Autobahn? A book I have shows the Autobahn hard-shoulder specification as ten ft. the same as U.S. Interstate shoulders. Maybe on the original East German Autobahns, there were narrower shoulders?  And the New Jersey Turnpike I think has twelve ft. shoulders, a full lane-width. (If anyone knows different, please correct me.)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on August 13, 2018, 05:50:58 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qg_Y3aRs_nY

Another tour of A9 by DSzumaher.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: DAL764 on August 19, 2018, 10:24:14 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 08, 2018, 08:12:55 PM
Really, only eight ft. shoulders on the Autobahn? A book I have shows the Autobahn hard-shoulder specification as ten ft. the same as U.S. Interstate shoulders. Maybe on the original East German Autobahns, there were narrower shoulders? 
Germany has many different Regelquerschnitte (cross section regulations) for all our roads, and just for the Autobahn alone there are like half a dozen. Those rules were last updated and partially replaced in 2008.

- RQ 31 is the current standard for 2+2 Autobahnen with a shoulder width of 3 meters, replacing the previous RQ29.5 which had the 2.5 meters. RQ28 is quite similar in overall width, though it only applies to Gelbe Autobahnen, as in roads built like the Autobahn but not offially part of the network, similar to  the non-Interstate freeways in the US

RQ36 and RQ43 apply for 6 and 8 lanes, respectively, though those also only feature 2.5 meter shoulders.

Quote from: Chris on August 08, 2018, 08:33:20 AMIt doesn't help that some drivers park their truck overnight on the shoulder near rest area due to a lack of parking. There is a severe truck parking shortage. They are expanding many rest area with additional truck parking but it isn't enough. The lengthy procedures don't help either.
Yeah, the situation is pretty disastrous due to a multitude of issues, most notably the governments being too f'n slow to realise the severity of the issue despite it getting blatantly worse for decades now. More and more cargo is being put on the roads, less and less on the rail, partly because direct rail connections have disappeared, partly because rail is way too expensive/unflexible. Hundreds of smaller parking spots along the Autobahn were also closed over years (small as in could maybe park a dozen trucks only) because the government 'couldn't guarantee the safety of truckers overnighting there', local governments/municipalities have blocked trucks from overnighting in industrial areas (same reason, plus noise), and the fact that Tank&Rast, the company running all the rest areas on the Autobahn, have a near-monopoly and are too busy ripping off tourists needing drinks for their kids after 10pm to focus on actually building new rest areas where they are needed because they wouldn't immediately make a boatload of profit, even if construction licenses have been granted and any objections resolved.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 19, 2018, 09:14:58 PM
Sounds as messed up as our country.........
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on September 01, 2018, 04:40:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXZ-p9Ibsfw


Here is a shot of the A10 under Construction back in May 2018.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on February 11, 2019, 01:26:57 PM
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/03/world/europe/germany-autobahn-speed-limit.html?fallback=0&recId=1H2nIzmcB5JdAiMkEJTgCBaegYh&locked=0&geoContinent=NA&geoRegion=CA&recAlloc=story&geoCountry=US&blockId=signature-journalism-vi&imp_id=193634662

Here is another take on Autobahns done by NY Times and its over speed limit talks.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 11, 2019, 02:11:05 PM
Driving in Germany is not as fast as it is often suggested. There are people that drive really fast, but it's not like 'everyone' drives 120 mph.

A study in the state of Brandenburg showed that the average speed on a rural six lane Autobahn is 142 km/h (88 mph) among passenger cars. The V85 was listed at 167 km/h (104 mph). And this was measured on A9 south of Berlin, which is one of the best Autobahns in all of Germany to speed: flat, light traffic and through a forested area.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on February 11, 2019, 02:11:34 PM
I found this paragraph interesting:

Quote
"Germany is terribly regulated, for reasons which have to do with the past, with a fear of uncertainty, a fear of being overwhelmed,"  Mr. Kornblum said. "But then people look for their little spaces of freedom and the autobahn is one of them."

While the lack of speed limit on 70% of the autobahn is, in itself, a freedom, the dangers that come along with it seems to have influenced the behaviour of Germans behind the wheel, and other rules as well. For example, the mental-attention to lane discipline, or rules against breaking down. Here in US, while many states now have left lane laws, too many Americans still don't take high speeds anywhere near as seriously as the Germans, so we screw around a lot more. Whether this has a direct influence on our much higher per-capita road death index, I don't know.

Could Germany lower the limit to 120 or 130? Yes, and I'm sure the Germans would stick to it hard and fast. But, I suspect it may lead to be a bit more road rage than today, as people take too long to pass each, a huge source of road rage here in the US (left lane hogs going 1 mph faster than the other cars, for example).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 11, 2019, 03:03:48 PM
A real danger in Germany is the number of semi trucks that plow into traffic jams. These result in fatalities almost on a daily basis.

In 2017 there were 409 fatalities on the Autobahn: 101 of those were truck occupants, to compare: in Denmark only 2 fatalities were truck drivers (1% of all fatalities).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on February 11, 2019, 05:21:03 PM
Quote from: Chris on February 11, 2019, 03:03:48 PM
A real danger in Germany is the number of semi trucks that plow into traffic jams. These result in fatalities almost on a daily basis.

In 2017 there were 409 fatalities on the Autobahn: 101 of those were truck occupants, to compare: in Denmark only 2 fatalities were truck drivers (1% of all fatalities).

Yikes. Perhaps Germany should consider a more robust ATM system? Something to alert drivers of slowdowns ahead.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 12, 2019, 03:42:10 AM
This is pretty much daily business on the Autobahn. Just in the state of North-Rhine Westphalia there were 197 of such crashes on the Autobahn in 2017, which means it happens every second day in this state alone.

(https://i.imgur.com/q7x5hsH.jpg)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on February 12, 2019, 07:01:05 PM
Wow.

Any idea what the causes have been? Or at least what the police have said?

Crashes like those in the US are typically blamed on inappropriate speed (such that the driver was unable to stop in time), or inattentive driving (mobile phone usage primarily).

Seattle was having a lot of rear-end truck crashes on I-5 south of Seattle. WSDOT installed a bunch of speed-limit-per-lane signs that decrease prior to a slow down, which are tracked with in-pavement detectors. Hasn't had a massive impact but, ignoring some specious reasoning, it seems to have helped a bit.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on February 13, 2019, 04:09:54 AM
Distracted driving is usually cited as the main factor. Speeding is not possible since all trucks in the EU are governed, so they can drive only a few km/h over the speed limit.

Driving in Germany is very monotonous for truck drivers. The speed limit is 80 km/h (50 mph), truck traffic is generally heavy so you are basically always driving in a slow-moving caravan. The surroundings of the Autobahn are often filled with trees, so there isn't much to see either.

Another tricky thing is that truck traffic jams could start several kilometers earlier than that of car traffic. It's not uncommon to see a 3-4 kilometer lineup of stopped trucks on the right lane while car traffic is still free-flowing on the left lanes.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 10:09:53 PM
(^^acknowledged)

Quote from: Chris on February 13, 2019, 04:09:54 AM
Speeding is not possible since all trucks in the EU are governed, so they can drive only a few km/h over the speed limit.

I don't mean speeding over the limit. I mean, speeding when environmental factors dictated that a lower limit would have been more appropriate. In the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed. I suppose the equivalent in Germany would be a truck travelling at 80 in lane 2, next to a line of stopped trucks.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: abefroman329 on February 14, 2019, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 10:09:53 PMIn the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed.
I don't see why tickets couldn't be written for "driving too fast for conditions" when there isn't an actual accident, but maybe that becomes more difficult to prove when there wasn't a negative result of driving too fast for conditions, such as an accident.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on February 14, 2019, 02:38:53 PM
Quote from: abefroman329 on February 14, 2019, 10:26:19 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on February 13, 2019, 10:09:53 PMIn the US, you are generally only hit with this kind of ticket when involved in an accident that could have been avoided if travelling at a lower speed.
I don't see why tickets couldn't be written for "driving too fast for conditions" when there isn't an actual accident, but maybe that becomes more difficult to prove when there wasn't a negative result of driving too fast for conditions, such as an accident.

I think that's the idea. Too hard to prove. It's easy to prove if an accident occurs, although the reasoning is still "hindsight 20/20".
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: webfil on February 26, 2019, 11:41:33 AM
Having only driven 15-20 hours on the Autobahnen in Germany, I might have unclear memory if this dispositive is existent or not. I know for sure the southern neighbour has ,,Bei Nebel'' speed limits on its Autobahnen, where one must adapt its speed to the number of dots visible on the shoulder through fog clouds. That makes speeding in these bad conditions, at least, pretty easy to prove.
(https://i.imgur.com/K9tpdOc.jpg)

Not talking about the variable speed limits, with motives of lowering that go from CO2 reduction to presence of black ice or jams that impose a strict speed limit, but a somewhat measurable bid to adapt.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Tito_zz on June 28, 2019, 08:31:11 AM
Well, we have it when it's wet.
(https://www.schwaebische.de/cms_media/module_img/7039/3519989_1_tablet_3419989_1_org_B995432434Z.1_20170324183926_000_G684ESHFR.1-0.jpg)
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on July 03, 2019, 11:58:11 AM
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: D-Dey65 on August 12, 2019, 08:37:29 AM
Quote from: Chris on December 23, 2009, 04:42:17 PM
(https://www.aaroads.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2548%2F3840105238_6c1659c2f3_o.jpg&hash=d2f792e1165d24a202c01a2ff6e47276ae067459)
The curves in this picture reminds me so much of I-75 at the Pasco-Hernando County line. Add some extra lanes and shoulders, and replace foliage and the bottom of the hill with a bridge over a small creek and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.


I saw the old episode of "Modern Marvels" that covered the Autobahn like everyone else, but I also saw something recently on the overall evil of the Third Reich on the "American Heroes Channel," which had an episode about the Autobahn with a few more details. It mentioned the fact that car ownership and culture was practically non-existent in Germany compared to the UK, and ours left both countries in the dust. It also gave more details about the refusal to let the workers use construction machinery at first. The Nazis wanted to make them build it by hand as a propaganda tool to prove the "superiority of the Aryan Worker," but the work was kicking the asses of the Aryan worker. They even had a memorial to employees who were killed for complaining about the conditions.

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 12, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
That last photo looks a lot like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. LOL With those woefully inadequate shoulders it would not even meet U.S. Interstate standards.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 13, 2019, 12:29:19 AM
Quote from: SignBridge on August 12, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
That last photo looks a lot like the Merritt Parkway in Connecticut. LOL With those woefully inadequate shoulders it would not even meet U.S. Interstate standards.

This is true, and such is brought up quite often when comparing Interstates to Autobahns. But I don't fully understand why us Americans are so proud of our visible standards, when the "invisible" standards are, arguably, more important: deeper pavement depths, gentler slopes, gentler corners, etc; plus, driving rules are far stricter, making simple things like shoulders almost go unused due to how well-maintained the average German car is (or, so it would seem).

I like shoulders as much as the next guy, but all they do is afford the average American driver more room to screw up, which is apparently an inevitability. I'm not saying our standards shouldn't make it easier for idiots to survive, but the German standards are proof that our lane width and shoulder standards are basically airbags, required only because our drivers are just. that. bad.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: J N Winkler on August 13, 2019, 11:48:23 AM
Quote from: jakeroot on August 13, 2019, 12:29:19 AMThis is true, and such is brought up quite often when comparing Interstates to Autobahns. But I don't fully understand why us Americans are so proud of our visible standards, when the "invisible" standards are, arguably, more important: deeper pavement depths, gentler slopes, gentler corners, etc; plus, driving rules are far stricter, making simple things like shoulders almost go unused due to how well-maintained the average German car is (or, so it would seem).

The Germans have historically had much stricter standards for horizontal and vertical alignment, with one exception--during the Nazi period grades of up to 8% (exceptionally 8.5%) were allowed.  The stylized fact is that the Germans also insist on more thorough preparation of the subgrade (dewatering, attainment of a minimum bearing capacity, etc.) before they lay down base and surfacing, but they have had their share of wick drain failures.  Thicker pavement is partly a response to heavy truck traffic--on a mass-distance basis the modal share of trucks in the EU generally is about 80%, versus 30% in the US.

Quote from: jakeroot on August 13, 2019, 12:29:19 AMI like shoulders as much as the next guy, but all they do is afford the average American driver more room to screw up, which is apparently an inevitability. I'm not saying our standards shouldn't make it easier for idiots to survive, but the German standards are proof that our lane width and shoulder standards are basically airbags, required only because our drivers are just. that. bad.

For all their (usually quite expensive) training, Germans screw up too, especially at high speeds where there is very little margin for error.  Interurban congestion on the Autobahn network is now so bad that Germans are not noticeably better off than coastal Americans in terms of journey time reliability.  Provision of full paved right shoulders has been the norm since at least the early 1960's and makes possible certain incident management techniques, such as the creation of a Rettungsweg to allow emergency vehicles to reach the scene of an accident by straddling the line dividing the overtaking and driving lanes.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: SignBridge on August 13, 2019, 08:57:13 PM
I should have also mentioned that I believe that photo was of a former East German Autobahn. If I remember right, they were built to more primitive standards than the West German ones were.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM
That photo was taken between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, which is in former West Germany. It was built in the 1940s as a Reichsautobahn but not upgraded much until the 2010s. There was an inner German border checkpoint until 1990, so there wasn't much traffic using it. This section has recently been improved (curvature, shoulders), but not widened to six lanes as A4 in former East Germany has, because future A44 to Kassel is supposed to siphon off traffic from A4. However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: mgk920 on August 14, 2019, 11:09:21 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM
That photo was taken between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, which is in former West Germany. It was built in the 1940s as a Reichsautobahn but not upgraded much until the 2010s. There was an inner German border checkpoint until 1990, so there wasn't much traffic using it. This section has recently been improved (curvature, shoulders), but not widened to six lanes as A4 in former East Germany has, because future A44 to Kassel is supposed to siphon off traffic from A4. However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.

Agreed, it was a pre-War route (BTW, Eisenach was in the East).  I mentioned upthread about ten years ago that the A4 crossed the former Iron Curtain border three times in quick succession on that section, the westernmost two of those crossings were cut off by the 'Wall' and traffic had to detour around it via local surface roads while the easternmost one is where the 'transit' checkpoint was located, just east of Herleshausen.  That was the last city in the 'West' along the A4.  Restoring the A4 over that section was one of the first priorities of the German Federal Transport Ministry after the reunification (October, 1990), while the checkpoint itself is now a pair of service plazas and a Cold War museum.

It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )

An aside, I've always thought that the 'no mans land' strip on the former innerdeutsche/Iron Curtain border would make an amazing historic, scenic and recreational linear park, complete with a pedestrian/bicycle pathway running down its length.  Perusing those aerial images tells me that the vast majority of it is still intact and a few parts of the no-mans land strip of the Wall in Berlin are in fact being used as such.

Mike
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on August 14, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 14, 2019, 11:09:21 AM
It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )
It's legal now, but Google decided not to go back for a while.  That said, this may be changing, as Google's street view page identifies locations in the country where they'll be driving this year.
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/11/alas-there-will-be-no-more-google-street-view-in-germany/
https://www.google.com/streetview/explore/
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 14, 2019, 08:34:28 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: mgk920 on August 14, 2019, 11:09:21 AM
It is fascinating to explore that entire Berlin Wall/Iron Curtain border area on Google aerial photos.  (Man, I wish that Germany would get over its lingering 'Stasi' privacy fears and let the Streetview camera cars back in - the Wall fell nearly 30 years ago already!  :banghead: )
It's legal now, but Google decided not to go back for a while.  That said, this may be changing, as Google's street view page identifies locations in the country where they'll be driving this year.
http://techland.time.com/2011/04/11/alas-there-will-be-no-more-google-street-view-in-germany/
https://www.google.com/streetview/explore/

That's great news! I always wondered if they'd go back. Had not heard that any laws changed. Can't find anything on Google about that fact either, though.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: vdeane on August 14, 2019, 08:48:53 PM
It was actually a ruling from a judge (from first link of previous post):
QuoteA recent court decision has made street photography legal, so Google has no current reason to pull away.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: jakeroot on August 14, 2019, 11:17:38 PM
Quote from: vdeane on August 14, 2019, 08:48:53 PM
It was actually a ruling from a judge (from first link of previous post):
QuoteA recent court decision has made street photography legal, so Google has no current reason to pull away.

I saw that link. I thought you were implying that the ruling was more recent. There were further legal challenges. Perhaps they've been wrapped up...

https://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/23/germanys-complicated-relationship-with-google-street-view/
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: bing101 on August 24, 2019, 09:55:37 AM
European Roads does a segment on the A8 Autobahn.

Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: DAL764 on September 15, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
StreetView cars are very much active in Germany. Saw one myself at a traffic light in Wilhelmshaven, and had two pics from friends recently who encountered them as well.

Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM
That photo was taken between Bad Hersfeld and Eisenach, which is in former West Germany. It was built in the 1940s as a Reichsautobahn but not upgraded much until the 2010s. There was an inner German border checkpoint until 1990, so there wasn't much traffic using it. This section has recently been improved (curvature, shoulders), but not widened to six lanes as A4 in former East Germany has, because future A44 to Kassel is supposed to siphon off traffic from A4. However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.
The latter can sadly be said about pretty much EVERY Autobahn project in Germany these days.

What is also interesting about this part of the A4 is that it easily has seen the most realignments of all Autobahns in Germany. There's a 2-mile stretch near Friedewald, the bypass around Eisenach (around 14 miles), and the Jagdbergtunnel near Jena (7 miles).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on September 15, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
Quote from: DAL764 on September 15, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM
However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.
The latter can sadly be said about pretty much EVERY Autobahn project in Germany these days.

In the Netherlands we are baffled by;

1) the duration of construction projects. Most projects require 2 - 3 times longer than similar projects in the Netherlands
2) the inability to keep deadlines. Years of delays are the norm for most major projects. And by that I mean delays after construction has started (not the political decision-making process).
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Tito_zz on October 11, 2020, 07:37:26 AM
Quote from: Chris on September 15, 2019, 10:22:12 AM
Quote from: DAL764 on September 15, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
Quote from: Chris on August 14, 2019, 04:07:25 AM
However the completion of A44 is very much delayed.
The latter can sadly be said about pretty much EVERY Autobahn project in Germany these days.

In the Netherlands we are baffled by;

1) the duration of construction projects. Most projects require 2 - 3 times longer than similar projects in the Netherlands
2) the inability to keep deadlines. Years of delays are the norm for most major projects. And by that I mean delays after construction has started (not the political decision-making process).

Yeah. My local Autobahn, the A 98, has been in planning since the 70s.. and about a third has been built. A bit of it is classified as "A 98"  but is more of a Schnellstraße, with the 2+1 system.
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Plutonic Panda on February 24, 2023, 10:24:12 PM
Tons of upgrades are planned with some beginning this year:

QuoteExtensive road work projects will be carried out in Germany in Rhine-Main, Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate. Widening works as well as maintenance will be carried out.

A healthy budget of €315 million will be spent in 2023 to upgrade and rebuild highways in the Rhine-Main region. Southern Hesse will see a budget of €180 million for highway works, while Rhine Hesse will receive €135 million for highway improvements.

A budget of €180 million has been set for 2023 to build highways in Saarland and Rhineland-Palatinate. Of this, Rhineland-Palatinate will benefit from €135 million while Saarland will receive €35 million for the works.

https://www.worldhighways.com/wh9/news/road-works-planned-germany

Another article on it: https://www.worldhighways.com/wh8/news/german-road-expansion-programme

And a new major tunnel project: https://www.worldhighways.com/wh10/news/new-german-road-tunnel-proposed
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Bruce on September 17, 2023, 07:19:46 PM
An interesting issue: Autobahn transport of wind turbine blades have become more and more difficult.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-17/aging-autobahn-thwarts-germany-s-plan-to-erect-massive-windmills
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Rothman on September 17, 2023, 09:25:59 PM
Quote from: Bruce on September 17, 2023, 07:19:46 PM
An interesting issue: Autobahn transport of wind turbine blades have become more and more difficult.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-09-17/aging-autobahn-thwarts-germany-s-plan-to-erect-massive-windmills
Paywalled
Title: Re: German Autobahns
Post by: Chris on September 18, 2023, 04:20:25 AM
This is a huge problem for any oversize load in Germany. There are so many bridges that have a 40 - 44 ton weight limit (some much less) that planning is complex and requires lengthy detours. A trip that would normally be a 6 hour drive turns into three overnight stages.

I've recently heard a story at work where they had to ship wind turbine components from Denmark to the Netherlands, which means a trip through Germany. They had to apply for a permit over 2 months in advance and it took them 3 days (nights) to cross through Germany.

Even bridge replacement projects in Germany suffer from this, because the steel needs to be transported by road.