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Non-Road Boards => Off-Topic => Sports => Topic started by: bugo on September 14, 2012, 09:24:33 PM

Title: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 14, 2012, 09:24:33 PM
Does anybody think that professional wrestling was better 15-20 years ago than it is now?  I used to love wrestling when I was a kid.  I liked the WWF, but my favorite federation was always WCW.  I also watched World Class, USWA, AWA, Mid South, and other minor feds.  I quit watching it in 2000, and since then I've watched it a few times, and it's simply terrible.  The wrestlers - I mean "sports entertainers" are boring and interchangeable.  The gimmicks are stupid and the angles are lame and boring.  And there's Vince's penchant for trying to piss the fans off by showing them something they don't want to see (Mae Young, Big Dick Johnson.)  Back in the day, I watched guys like Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Junkyard Dog, Randy Savage, Dusty Rhodes, Big Van Vader, Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, and other legends.  The only two wrestlers of the last decade would have a place on that list: Edge and CM Punk, and Edge is retired now.  Wrestling is truly in a sorry state.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: DAL764 on September 16, 2012, 08:00:20 AM
Wrestling only sucks if only watch the WWE. Want better wrestling, watch ROH (preferrably from 2004-2007), any current CHIKARA shows, on most occasions TNA, and these days especially PWG. Of course, it is always worth it to check out Japanese wrestling as well, be it for puro and high flying (Dragon Gate, NOAH), or absolute comedy (DDT).
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on September 16, 2012, 10:54:33 AM
Most certainly wrestling was better during the 1995-1999 time frame. I refer to it as the second glory year period of wrestling, the first being the mid to late 80s with the rise and fall of NWA, the overall popularity of WWF and Hulk Hogan, and the brief national stage that WCCW and AWA received with their ESPN television broadcasts. Throw in one of my favorites, UWF too, as they had a syndicated tv show.

In 1995, Bischoff came up with Monday Night Nitro that usurped the ratings from WWF's Raw for an almost two year period. The back and forth had me, among many of my friends, flipping back and forth, or later taping one and watching it the following day (whichever was the weaker show). Nitro even got to a three-hour time period it was so popular.

When ECW was brought to the forefront with their show on TNN, that was the peak, and things started to collapse for both it and WCW. WCW's problem was bad bookings and inflated salaries.

It was a sad day when McMahon bought out WCW, killing a legacy going back to the NWA days. This and the eventual trend to move WWF/E from the Attitude Era to PG-based programming, and the constant dual marketing with WWE Studios and marketing wrestlers as actors, has diminished the quality of mainstream wrestler, er Sports Entertainer to what it is today.

In 2004 I discovered NWA-TNA and watched several of their weekly $10 ppv's with a friend. I was quite impressed with what they had, and they put on a good uncensored show with many matches and good promos. The switch to regular TV degraded the show quite a bit, as it corresponded with Bischoff and Hogan taking over. They brought you their typical booking style, which was later exacerbated by Vince Russo during the early days of the Impact Wrestling rebranding of TNA.

These days Bruce Prichard, aka Brother Love, is the head booker, and while I have read a lot of flack he has gotten from wrestlers that have worked with him in the past, the most recent programing of Impact Wrestling has improved, though they still have a way to go.

Regarding Ring of Honor (ROH), they only recently started broadcasting matches with their weekly show on Sinclair Broadcasting based channels. One of our local affiliates is a Sinclair station and once I saw a promo for the show, I started watching and have been overall impressed with the ringwork and some of the wrestler promos.

When CM Punk did his renowned promo last summer on Raw and mentioned ROH, I had never seen it. I see that he, Bryan Danielson, Samoa Joe, and even AJ Styles are alumni, and have watched Kenny King recently jump from ROH to Impact. Old ECW stars Steve Corino and Rhino are in it as well. Am hoping that they get more attention as they are the closest to old school wrestling and the original ECW that is available to long time fans like myself. My brother and I started watching wrestling in the early 80s, with my first memory being our grandfather having it on when the Missing Link was in the ring, and flipping it because "we were too young to watch it".
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: hbelkins on September 16, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 14, 2012, 09:24:33 PM
Does anybody think that professional wrestling was better 15-20 years ago than it is now?  I used to love wrestling when I was a kid.  I liked the WWF, but my favorite federation was always WCW.  I also watched World Class, USWA, AWA, Mid South, and other minor feds.  I quit watching it in 2000, and since then I've watched it a few times, and it's simply terrible.  The wrestlers - I mean "sports entertainers" are boring and interchangeable.  The gimmicks are stupid and the angles are lame and boring.  And there's Vince's penchant for trying to piss the fans off by showing them something they don't want to see (Mae Young, Big Dick Johnson.)  Back in the day, I watched guys like Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Junkyard Dog, Randy Savage, Dusty Rhodes, Big Van Vader, Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, and other legends.  The only two wrestlers of the last decade would have a place on that list: Edge and CM Punk, and Edge is retired now.  Wrestling is truly in a sorry state.

I guess it was Mid-South that I watched on Saturday late mornings-early afternoons on one of the Lexington TV stations when I was in my early 20s. One of the biggest rivalries was Jerry Lawler and Joe LeDuc. I think WCW was something of the big-time extension of that. I remember one of the announcers/commentators ("Lance" something) later showing up on WCW. I always preferred WCW to WWF, and for awhile "Nitro" was must-see TV in our house. We never got into WWF or "Raw."
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Duke87 on September 17, 2012, 08:11:51 PM
The thing about professional wrestling is that it has a lot of fad factor to it and so its popularity will vary from one generation to the next. Currently it is in a down cycle.

Though, I don't see it every being as popular as it once was simply because TV is not as prominent a source of entertainment for young people as it used to be. Younger generations now are more concerned with the internet and their gadgets.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 17, 2012, 11:10:55 PM
I think once Vince dies and Levesque takes control of the company that it will continue declining.  Vince comes up with a lot of stupid angles and characters, but he produces something that (some) wrestling fans want to see.  HHH doesn't have the same knack that Vince has. 

I read a wrestling newsgroup and everyone on there thinks current WWE is terrible outside of CM Punk and a few others.  So it's not just me.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 18, 2012, 08:24:35 AM
Quote from: hbelkins on September 16, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 14, 2012, 09:24:33 PM
Does anybody think that professional wrestling was better 15-20 years ago than it is now?  I used to love wrestling when I was a kid.  I liked the WWF, but my favorite federation was always WCW.  I also watched World Class, USWA, AWA, Mid South, and other minor feds.  I quit watching it in 2000, and since then I've watched it a few times, and it's simply terrible.  The wrestlers - I mean "sports entertainers" are boring and interchangeable.  The gimmicks are stupid and the angles are lame and boring.  And there's Vince's penchant for trying to piss the fans off by showing them something they don't want to see (Mae Young, Big Dick Johnson.)  Back in the day, I watched guys like Sting, Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, Junkyard Dog, Randy Savage, Dusty Rhodes, Big Van Vader, Rick Rude, Arn Anderson, and other legends.  The only two wrestlers of the last decade would have a place on that list: Edge and CM Punk, and Edge is retired now.  Wrestling is truly in a sorry state.

I guess it was Mid-South that I watched on Saturday late mornings-early afternoons on one of the Lexington TV stations when I was in my early 20s. One of the biggest rivalries was Jerry Lawler and Joe LeDuc. I think WCW was something of the big-time extension of that. I remember one of the announcers/commentators ("Lance" something) later showing up on WCW. I always preferred WCW to WWF, and for awhile "Nitro" was must-see TV in our house. We never got into WWF or "Raw."

I think you were thinking of Lance Russell, who did do some commentating on 'NWA World Wide Wrestling' and 'NWA/WCW Pro Wrestling' shows in 1989-91.....

I preferred the NWA 'wrasslin' style back in the day over the cartoonish showings of the WWF......and considered Ric Flair the REAL World Champion, and Hulk Hogan was a pathetic excuse who couldn't wrestle his way out of a paper bag (Couldnt tell a wristlock from a wristwatch, but then most of the current guys can't either....)

I preferred NWA and WCW until they committed the fatal mistake of signing Hulk in '94 then they fell into the abyss of 'sports entertainment'.....

Closest now to the old NWA style is ROH  (Helps that Jim Cornette is running the show, where the emphasis is on the ring action, and not stupid back-stage skits...)
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 18, 2012, 08:31:58 AM
Quote from: bugo on September 17, 2012, 11:10:55 PM
I think once Vince dies and Levesque takes control of the company that it will continue declining.  Vince comes up with a lot of stupid angles and characters, but he produces something that (some) wrestling fans want to see.  HHH doesn't have the same knack that Vince has. 

I read a wrestling newsgroup and everyone on there thinks current WWE is terrible outside of CM Punk and a few others.  So it's not just me.

The best wrestling period i saw was the NWA in 1989 where they had a committee of bookers (JIm Ross, Jim Cornette, Kevin Sullivan, Ric Flair, and a couple of others....)....some terrific storylines and great action to make the stories even better.....then they brought back Ole Anderson to run the bookings and things fell apart in early 1990.....

The only guys worth even considering watching in the Worthless Wrestling Environment is Punk and Paul Heyman (Paul E Dangerously to us old-timers)....Michale Cole will NEVER replace Bobby Heenan as a heel announcer, and it seems everyone else knows only kicks and punches....nor how to tell a story in the ring anymore...and feuds used to build over a 6-month to a year in time frame until one could declare victory over the other.....nobody has that patience anymore for the payout that satisfies the fans....
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: cpzilliacus on September 18, 2012, 08:38:04 AM
Anyone remember "Mr. Wonderful," Paul Orndorff?

Or Bruno Sammartino?
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 18, 2012, 08:52:57 AM
Quote from: ctsignguy on September 18, 2012, 08:24:35 AM
I preferred NWA and WCW until they committed the fatal mistake of signing Hulk in '94 then they fell into the abyss of 'sports entertainment'.....

Actually signing Hogan was a home run, because of his later heel turn and induction into the nWo.  Hogan's heel turn was big money.  There were many mistakes that led to WCW's demise, but hiring Hogan wasn't one of them.  I went to a Nitro in 1996, and the nWo were OVER, including Hogan.  The fans loved them, even though they threw stuff at them in the ring at the end of the show (I got popped in the shoulder by a Coke.)  If they had somehow been able to keep the momentum they had in the mid-'90s, they might still be around.  Hiring Russo and Ferrera were bad decisions. and giving Bischoff too much power helped run things into the ground.  But I don't blame Hogan at all.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 18, 2012, 08:57:15 AM
Quote from: ctsignguy on September 18, 2012, 08:31:58 AM
The best wrestling period i saw was the NWA in 1989 where they had a committee of bookers (JIm Ross, Jim Cornette, Kevin Sullivan, Ric Flair, and a couple of others....)....some terrific storylines and great action to make the stories even better.....then they brought back Ole Anderson to run the bookings and things fell apart in early 1990.....

Those were the days, weren't they?  Wasn't the Sting-Flair time limit draw on Clash Of The Champions around 1989?  The Flair-Ricky Steamboat feud was epic as well.

Quote
The only guys worth even considering watching in the Worthless Wrestling Environment is Punk and Paul Heyman (Paul E Dangerously to us old-timers)....Michale Cole will NEVER replace Bobby Heenan as a heel announcer, and it seems everyone else knows only kicks and punches....nor how to tell a story in the ring anymore...and feuds used to build over a 6-month to a year in time frame until one could declare victory over the other.....nobody has that patience anymore for the payout that satisfies the fans....

NOBODY will replace Bobby Heenan and Gorilla Monsoon.  They were funny, and even non-wrestling fans appreciated their humor.

The most underrated wrestler of all time must be Arn Anderson.  A great wrestler, terrific on the mic, and funny.  His only handicap is that he didn't have the typical "look" even though his no-nonsense look matched his personality.  I wish WCW had given him at least a short world title reign.  I guess he was more of a character actor than a leading man, but he was a damn good one.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 18, 2012, 08:58:42 AM
Quote from: cpzilliacus on September 18, 2012, 08:38:04 AM
Anyone remember "Mr. Wonderful," Paul Orndorff?

Of course.  I still remember when he heeled out against Hogan back in the late '80s.  He was a very good wrestler and not bad on the mic.  Here's a toast to Mr. Wonderful.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: nyratk1 on September 18, 2012, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 17, 2012, 11:10:55 PM
I think once Vince dies and Levesque takes control of the company that it will continue declining.  Vince comes up with a lot of stupid angles and characters, but he produces something that (some) wrestling fans want to see.  HHH doesn't have the same knack that Vince has. 

I read a wrestling newsgroup and everyone on there thinks current WWE is terrible outside of CM Punk and a few others.  So it's not just me.

I think it might end up being a bit better. When McMahon goes, so will Kevin Dunn and a few other hangers on. Triple H has a decent eye for talent, isn't absolutely insane like Vince (Vince's fingerprints were all over 1995 WWF with cartoon characters and stale programming) and won't go into so many ego/vanity projects that drag the company down (WBF, XFL, Linda for Senate -> PG shift, WWE Films, WWE NY/The World, WWE Network). Steph may have the ego but she won't have the long lasting power.

The WWE definitely has the talent to do well, it's just the writers/producers and Vince are so far up their own butts, they're not willing to cater to the fans' changing interests and just want to show their vision and theirs only.

The wrestling business is the Special Olympics and Vince McMahon is a perennial gold medalist.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 19, 2012, 08:38:27 AM
Quote from: nyratk1 on September 18, 2012, 03:01:45 PM


I think it might end up being a bit better. When McMahon goes, so will Kevin Dunn and a few other hangers on. Triple H has a decent eye for talent, isn't absolutely insane like Vince (Vince's fingerprints were all over 1995 WWF with cartoon characters and stale programming) and won't go into so many ego/vanity projects that drag the company down (WBF, XFL, Linda for Senate -> PG shift, WWE Films, WWE NY/The World, WWE Network). Steph may have the ego but she won't have the long lasting power.

The WWE definitely has the talent to do well, it's just the writers/producers and Vince are so far up their own butts, they're not willing to cater to the fans' changing interests and just want to show their vision and theirs only.


That is also true......they are currently pushing wrestlers as heels when the fans want to cheer for them, and making others faces when the fans dont like them....or they dont want to be faces.   i dont think CM works as a true heel, he would be better as a tweener....Orton wants to be a heel......Bryan could be a monster face given how he crowds respond to him....

Reminds me of one the worst booking choices made in the NWA when the Great Muta passed through in 1989....he was fresh and exciting, fun to watch with a dazzling variety of moves and it was obvious the fans WANTED to cheer for him, but the NWA kept booking him as a heel with Gary Hart until he left in early 1990...

Other thing about the WWE i cant stand.......the guys know NOTHING about cutting good promos...the last good talker they had was the Rock....

You want good talkers who didnt need a script to tell them what they were gonna say?  Ric Flair......Jim Cornette (I still crack up when i hear him refer to Ronnie Garvin as the "Barney Rubble of professional wrestling"....i remember an interview where he stated his main goal in cutting promos wasnt always to make fans mad at him...he wanted to see if he could make Big Bubba Rogers or Bobby Eaton break character and crack a smile)....Arn Anderson ("I'm not saying we are going to toot our horns, but 'toot, toot!")... .and THAT was the way you cut promos!

.....today's so-called wrestlers need to crack open and watch some classic NWA shows from the 1980s and see some REAL talkers in action...maybe learn a thing or two, but on second though, cancel that....WWE shows are so tight, the writers would freak if they gave the wrestlers any freedom to actually say something new and fun...
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: NYYPhil777 on September 19, 2012, 08:07:37 PM
Quote from: nyratk1 on September 18, 2012, 03:01:45 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 17, 2012, 11:10:55 PM
I think once Vince dies and Levesque takes control of the company that it will continue declining.  Vince comes up with a lot of stupid angles and characters, but he produces something that (some) wrestling fans want to see.  HHH doesn't have the same knack that Vince has. 

I read a wrestling newsgroup and everyone on there thinks current WWE is terrible outside of CM Punk and a few others.  So it's not just me.

I think it might end up being a bit better. When McMahon goes, so will Kevin Dunn and a few other hangers on. Triple H has a decent eye for talent, isn't absolutely insane like Vince (Vince's fingerprints were all over 1995 WWF with cartoon characters and stale programming) and won't go into so many ego/vanity projects that drag the company down (WBF, XFL, Linda for Senate -> PG shift, WWE Films, WWE NY/The World, WWE Network). Steph may have the ego but she won't have the long lasting power.

The WWE definitely has the talent to do well, it's just the writers/producers and Vince are so far up their own butts, they're not willing to cater to the fans' changing interests and just want to show their vision and theirs only.

The wrestling business is the Special Olympics and Vince McMahon is a perennial gold medalist.
Vince McMahon- that's also the same person behind the ill-fated Xtreme Football League, which attempted to combine wrestling with football. It sucks because it turned out to be more wrestling than football and NBC apparently hated the idea.
Once the "Million Dollar Game" (in which Los Angeles defeated San Francisco) was played, the league was ended.
Though I don't remember the name of it, McMahon also founded a short-lived hockey league, too.

I've also enjoyed watching "D-Generation X". Coincidentally, that was also the name of a bowling team I was on.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 19, 2012, 08:25:05 PM
Degeneration X was just a bad ripoff of the nWo.  I don't know who came up with the concept of the nWo (Bischoff, Hogan, Hall, Nash, or somebody else) but it was brilliant.  And the wrestlers playing the roles did a great acting job as well.  When Hall and Nash first appeared as the Outsiders, they almost made you believe that they were not a part of WCW and were dangerous thugs. 
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: hbelkins on September 19, 2012, 09:04:09 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 19, 2012, 08:25:05 PM
Degeneration X was just a bad ripoff of the nWo.  I don't know who came up with the concept of the nWo (Bischoff, Hogan, Hall, Nash, or somebody else) but it was brilliant.  And the wrestlers playing the roles did a great acting job as well.  When Hall and Nash first appeared as the Outsiders, they almost made you believe that they were not a part of WCW and were dangerous thugs.

"You know who we are .... and we're takin' over."

I remember that. Had me actually believing it was a "shoot."

Hall's in very bad shape, from what I hear. I think I saw a documentary about him that showed how down on his luck he'd gotten. Nash was a benchwarmer for the Tennessee Vols basketball team, but I don't remember him.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 19, 2012, 09:26:11 PM
I never thought it was a shoot, but it was more believable than most wrestling angles.

And yes, Hall is in bad shape.  Decades of drug abuse has ravaged his body.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 19, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Right on.  I watched 1986 til about 2009, just before Mania, which I went to.  They don't have the huge larger than life stars they used to, instead we get Dolph Ziggler et al, stupid storylines that have been rehashed with nothing original, no managers to talk for the bland guys or tag teams to offer something different.  Squash matches served a purpose too.  I want it to be good so badly, but it just never is.  Not even worth watching and hasn't really been "good" since 2001.  Watching my old tapes and missing the "good old days"
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 19, 2012, 11:32:03 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on September 19, 2012, 10:36:07 PM
Right on.  I watched 1986 til about 2009, just before Mania, which I went to.  They don't have the huge larger than life stars they used to, instead we get Dolph Ziggler et al, stupid storylines that have been rehashed with nothing original, no managers to talk for the bland guys or tag teams to offer something different.  Squash matches served a purpose too.  I want it to be good so badly, but it just never is.  Not even worth watching and hasn't really been "good" since 2001.  Watching my old tapes and missing the "good old days"

They had a tag team that COULD have been different...the Prime Time Players were fun to watch (That goofy entrance dance and their catchphrase "Millions and Millions of dollars!") and AW could have been a latter-day Jim Cornette with street attitude, he was that good a talker....but he said something impolitic on RAW in Cincy (the risk of live TV), and was let go shortly afterward...and now the PTPers are just an ordinary heel tag team with nothing to set them apart from the other teams.  Too bad....wasted potential....
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 20, 2012, 10:28:51 AM
They don't have good characters anymore and that's no excuse.  ECW was a blast to watch 1995-1997 and Paul Heyman did it with people who couldn't draw flies anywhere else.  It's all about good writing of what people want to see.

DX was actually a fairly effective ripoff of the nWo, far better than fake Razor & fake Diesel (Kane)
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 20, 2012, 12:52:12 PM
I dont mind if they recycle storylines....there is only so much original stuff you can do...but at least add a twist to the angle, and allow the wrestlers to show some real personality. 

Cena has the personality of a wet dishrag....Marella is more of a clown character with that damn sock he calls a cobra, not anyone serious.....Bryan has potential but the thing with Kane is getting old already....Cody Rhodes was derailed by his 'obsession with masks' gimmick...

The only real good characters they have now are Punk in his 'rebel without a clue' persona, and Paul Heyman, but he was always a terrific character who could draw heat, as a manager or commentator...and i am having a hard time thinking of anyone else other than the Miz, whom at times is more annoying than anything else....he is another with potential, but he has got to be allowed to use it...

frankly, i think WWE needs to step away from the current creative teams and bring in people who KNOW how to plot wrestling storylines and get the wrestlers to tell them well....not Hollywood hacks with a couple of retreads in the mix...............oh, i forgot...the McMahons dont want to acknowledge they got rich on wrestling and are trying to distance themselves from it as much as they can from that reality
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 20, 2012, 01:26:00 PM
I hold out hope.  Wrestling was awful in 1994 and rebounded the next few years.  But there hasn't been much memorable in the last 11 years, been a long drought.  The local indy is pretty good but they put on 5-6 hour shows on Sunday nights and I get up early for work.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: NYYPhil777 on September 20, 2012, 05:38:03 PM
Quote from: texaskdog on September 20, 2012, 10:28:51 AM
They don't have good characters anymore and that's no excuse.  ECW was a blast to watch 1995-1997 and Paul Heyman did it with people who couldn't draw flies anywhere else.  It's all about good writing of what people want to see.

DX was actually a fairly effective ripoff of the nWo, far better than fake Razor & fake Diesel (Kane)
Yes, D-Generation X was a ripoff of the nWo, but it was one of the most controversial groups in WWF/E history. And their gimmicks were crude and unforgettable.
I haven't watched wrestling since the group disbanded in 2010.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 20, 2012, 06:39:50 PM
What I miss was how you couldn't wait to see what happened next week and the shows were always full of suprises.  Now the shows are boring.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 22, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
What i miss was the old NWA World Wide and NWA Pro shows where the show would end in a near riot in the ring as various faces and heels would be going at it as Tony Schivone would be saying "Fans, time is up!  We have to go!" and David Crockett would be pleading "No, no!  We cant go!"  as the camera fades to black.  You kept tuning in even though you would almost never find out what happened from that near-riot on last week's show.....

And the BEST heel faction of ALL time...they were so bad they had fans cheering for them....the Four Horsemen!  Unlike DX, the NWO and other, more recent heel groups, the Horsemen understood that to generate heat, it was good for business to occasionally suffer a beat-down or loss on TV...this would keep fans coming hoping that when they were at the house show, they would see the Horsemen get their comeuppance.....why come out if you knew the NWO or DX would always win?
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: hbelkins on September 22, 2012, 04:11:26 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 19, 2012, 09:26:11 PM
I never thought it was a shoot, but it was more believable than most wrestling angles.

And yes, Hall is in bad shape.  Decades of drug abuse has ravaged his body.

I haven't watched wrestling in so long, nor have I read r.s.p.w, so I used the wrong terminology.

Instead of saying that I thought it was a shoot, I should have said that I marked out.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on September 22, 2012, 08:43:32 PM
Quote from: ctsignguy on September 22, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
What i miss was the old NWA World Wide and NWA Pro shows where the show would end in a near riot in the ring as various faces and heels would be going at it as Tony Schivone would be saying "Fans, time is up!  We have to go!" and David Crockett would be pleading "No, no!  We cant go!"  as the camera fades to black.  You kept tuning in even though you would almost never find out what happened from that near-riot on last week's show.....

And the BEST heel faction of ALL time...they were so bad they had fans cheering for them....the Four Horsemen!  Unlike DX, the NWO and other, more recent heel groups, the Horsemen understood that to generate heat, it was good for business to occasionally suffer a beat-down or loss on TV...this would keep fans coming hoping that when they were at the house show, they would see the Horsemen get their comeuppance.....why come out if you knew the NWO or DX would always win?

Wow John, you hit the nail on the head with all of your NWA posts. I was an avid fan of the show on TBS. Knew to tune in at 6:05 every Saturday. Always found the TV title as my favorite, from Tully Blanchard of the Horseman, with his $10,000 challenge to the Great Muta (another all time favorite). I still have Halloween Havoc '89 on tape, where Ric Flair and Sting teamed up vs. Great Muta and Terry Funk with Gary Hart as manager. I loved how they still used popular music at the time, as the late Flyin' Bryan used Def Leppard's Rocket and Doom (Ron Simmons and Butch Reed), managed by the late Woman (aka Nancy Sullivan), came out to Bob Segar's Her Strut.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: amroad17 on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 PM
The NWA, specifically the Mid-Atlantic area, had some of the best shows in the mid 80's.  The "closed-circuit" (how's that for an old-time term?) Starrcades and Great American Bashs were very entertaining, especially the two-ring cage matches involving the Horsemen vs. any babyfaces with Dusty Rhodes.  Also can't forget the Bunkhouse Stampede matches.

The heyday for the WWE was from 1996-2003.  Stone Cold, the Rock, Mankind, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H along with "Mr. McMahon" had my attention.  Matches were very good and storylines were tight.

The WWE now has boring storylines, many bland wrestlers, and matches that are not interesting at all.  And if there is going to be a divas match, let it last for 8-10 minutes instead of the 3-4 minutes they have now.  Allow them to tell a story too.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 22, 2012, 10:44:04 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 PM

The heyday for the WWE was from 1996-2003.  Stone Cold, the Rock, Mankind, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H along with "Mr. McMahon" had my attention.  Matches were very good and storylines were tight.

Some of those guys spent time in the NWA/WCW but were misused or not pushed properly by Ole and the guys who booked after him.  Stunning Steve Austin, Cactus Jack Manson, Mean Mark Callous, and Jean Paul Levesque (originally billed as Terra Ryzing.....who dreamt up THAT one?)   Shawn was in the old AWA as half of the Midnight Rockers....on that list , there was only one 'home-grown' star, the Rock....

Quote from: amroad17 on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 PM


The WWE now has boring storylines, many bland wrestlers, and matches that are not interesting at all.  And if there is going to be a divas match, let it last for 8-10 minutes instead of the 3-4 minutes they have now.  Allow them to tell a story too.

Not under the current WWE bookers.   You want to see decent ladies wrestling, go to TNA....the Knockouts there at least seem to be accorded respect to their product, and they get some pretty solid minutes in a show to tell a story in the ring.  Myself, i would rather trade five stupid backstage skits for a decent ladies match where they get to tell a story and sell each other....Gail Kim is solid when it comes to selling in the ring, but her last WWE stint, she was eye candy for the background...you never saw her except in 8 and 10-women tag matches that they somehow made to last under 3 minutes....



Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on September 22, 2012, 11:07:20 PM
Quote from: ctsignguy on September 22, 2012, 10:44:04 PM

Some of those guys spent time in the NWA/WCW but were misused or not pushed properly by Ole and the guys who booked after him.  Stunning Steve Austin, Cactus Jack Manson, Mean Mark Callous, and Jean Paul Levesque (originally billed as Terra Ryzing.....who dreamt up THAT one?)   Shawn was in the old AWA as half of the Midnight Rockers....on that list , there was only one 'home-grown' star, the Rock....


Remember a lot of that. They also briefly had Adam Copeland (Edge) as a jobber and then there was the infamous mess-up where Bishoff fired Brian Pillman so he could go to ECW and retool himself as the Loose Cannon, only to sign instead with WWF vs. coming back to WCW.

Quote from: ctsignguy on September 22, 2012, 10:44:04 PM

Not under the current WWE bookers.   You want to see decent ladies wrestling, go to TNA....the Knockouts there at least seem to be accorded respect to their product, and they get some pretty solid minutes in a show to tell a story in the ring.  Myself, i would rather trade five stupid backstage skits for a decent ladies match where they get to tell a story and sell each other....Gail Kim is solid when it comes to selling in the ring, but her last WWE stint, she was eye candy for the background...you never saw her except in 8 and 10-women tag matches that they somehow made to last under 3 minutes....

The unfortunate thing is that TNA has let go of Angelina Love, Velvet Sky, Winter and Rosita, leaving them with pretty much just six knockouts. Hard to base a division around so few, especially when they have not officially dropped the Knockouts tag titles.

Shifting gears, glad to hear that the TNA TV title will be brought back after Devon left the company when his contract expired. AFAIC, Bully Ray can go with him though I would likely mark out for a reunited Dudley Boyz in WWE, should they go that way for a reinvented tag team division. Also the comments about the Prime Time Players was spot on. The release of AW for his Kobe Bryant remark was pretty lame, but at the same time Vince has stated that he dislikes managers and feels that they are not needed. So I am not surprised.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: amroad17 on September 22, 2012, 11:20:46 PM
That's another reason why the WWE sucks.  The lack of excellent tag teams.  They have seemingly started giving more attention to the tag team division, however, the teams they have now have not consistently been together.  Most tag team matches now have the two babyfaces who are in singles feuds with the two heels.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 24, 2012, 02:29:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo8SRfv9k5c  ahhhhhhhh
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on September 25, 2012, 11:56:11 PM
IMHO, the biggest issue with wrestling today is - as noted by others - there simply is not enough time devoted to the storyline aspects. It's all short-attention-span "crash TV".

Way back when there was only 5 PPVs a year (one each season plus Wrestlemania for WWF/E), you had plenty of time to build a storyline and make it MEAN something. Today with a PPV every 4-5 weeks, there's not enough time to get the viewer interested in the storyline. Plus, not everyone can afford 13 PPVs at an average of $50 a pop each.

Today, just about every performer on the card is an "A" or "B" list guy - long gone are the days of the lowly jobber getting TV matches against the big-name stars - and that's a shame. There really is no "Barry Horowitz" or "Iron Mike Sharpe" today.

Been watching almost religiously since 1983 - plenty of good performers, storylines, angles, and gimmicks - and plenty of not so good performers, crappy storylines, stupid angles, and unbelievable gimmicks.

"Managers" and "valets" SHOULD come back. They add an element to the show that can make or break the performers they work with. Not everyone can be a physical wrestler, but there are folks that perform well on the mic and can get the crowd to pop or instantly add more heat to their "guy" by their actions.

Agree that tag teams are almost a lost art. Today when you've got a roster filled with talent and are trying to figure out what to do with them and how to fill a 3 hour show, well that's what tag team matches are for - even more so when you do as they once did and have actual titles for the 6-man and 8-man tag team groups.

Both TNA and WWE have their moments, but then they also put stuff on the air that makes me wonder what they are all smoking. Both rely on a couple of key performers way too much - and it's worse in TNA with Hogan. Yes, he's still a draw, but they should not be promoting the whole show around him - that's a slap in the face to the other guys that can actually go out and perform.

I recall being in Atlanta on a business trip, sitting in the hotel room watching TV and coming across - IIRC - a SIX HOUR block of nothing but pro-wrestling shows from the WWF, NWA, AWA, WCCW, and others - as I recall, it was hosted by "The Round Mound of Sound" Joe Pedicino. Barely slept as I stayed up watching the whole block of shows - nothing stands out as being overly great, but I was interesting in watching how each group built and promoted their stars and storylines.

If I had to pick a favorite overall, I think I would choose William "Lord Steven" Regal. The guy could cut a great promo, had the perfect snotty English attitude, and could carry just about anyone to a good if not great match.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on September 26, 2012, 01:53:26 PM
They treat it like they did during the wars.  Why do "quarter hours" even matter when no one is turning over to Nitro.  Work on TELLING A GOOD STORY.  they've lost their way and can't figure out how to get it back.  Case in point when a good worker comes in and can't work their boring style they say they "don't know how to work".  At least with Nitro there were many different type of matches.  Now they are all required to rassle the same match.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 26, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
At least TNA has good matches.  The storylines suck and the production leaves a lot to be desired, but the matches are way better.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on September 26, 2012, 07:22:31 PM
Quote from: bugo on September 26, 2012, 06:29:28 PM
At least TNA has good matches.  The storylines suck and the production leaves a lot to be desired, but the matches are way better.

One thing that was good that happened was the Claire Lynch storyline was immediately dropped once the actress (Julia Reilly) who played her was found out.

I do like the Aces and 8's storyline FWIW.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on September 26, 2012, 11:23:49 PM
I liked Beer Money.  I heard they broke up.  They had the best tag team name of all time.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 27, 2012, 08:14:02 AM
The real problem is simply this:  Vince wont change things unless someone  (TNA, ROH or some other promotion we dont know about) becomes a CREDIBLE alternative promotion and starts to suck away fan interest and dollars.....TNA had their shot and botched it as badly as a Sin Cara match (even if the action is compelling, there is seldom storylines that make sense over the long term, and i am waiting to find they choked on the Aces and 8s angle by revealing the gang is made up of Iron Mike Sharpe, Barry Horowitz,  Mike Jackson, Barry O, and the Mulkey Brothers....)

ROH has its strong points, but i dont know how credible they can be at this point
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on October 07, 2012, 06:22:40 PM
Quote from: amroad17 on September 22, 2012, 09:11:10 PM
The NWA, specifically the Mid-Atlantic area, had some of the best shows in the mid 80's.  The "closed-circuit" (how's that for an old-time term?) Starrcades and Great American Bashs were very entertaining, especially the two-ring cage matches involving the Horsemen vs. any babyfaces with Dusty Rhodes.  Also can't forget the Bunkhouse Stampede matches.

The heyday for the WWE was from 1996-2003.  Stone Cold, the Rock, Mankind, Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, and Triple H along with "Mr. McMahon" had my attention.  Matches were very good and storylines were tight.

The WWE now has boring storylines, many bland wrestlers, and matches that are not interesting at all.  And if there is going to be a divas match, let it last for 8-10 minutes instead of the 3-4 minutes they have now.  Allow them to tell a story too.


i was lucky to have picked up the WarGames (Bash 87) for 10 bucks.....sat down and watched it one night this last week...man, the War Games matches were action pretty much from start to finish....Dusty out-did himself with that concept, and i recall reading where the wrestlers involved afterward thought it was the most fun they had in quite a while.....
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on October 07, 2012, 09:12:40 PM
One would think with 3 hours on Monday night to fill, then 2 hours on Friday nights, then the new hour on Ion with Main Event, plus the NXT and Superstars shows, they could actually do that - tell some decent stories and give matches a bit more time.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: jp the roadgeek on October 08, 2012, 12:13:00 AM
Eh, I gave up watching WWE years ago.  However, I will be supporting the CEO's wife for US Senate.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on October 08, 2012, 07:54:42 AM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on October 07, 2012, 09:12:40 PM
One would think with 3 hours on Monday night to fill, then 2 hours on Friday nights, then the new hour on Ion with Main Event, plus the NXT and Superstars shows, they could actually do that - tell some decent stories and give matches a bit more time.

Nahhh, they still place too much emphasis on the stupid back-stage skits instead of the in-ring action.....
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: amroad17 on October 09, 2012, 05:46:30 PM
I'd rather see backstage action where someone gets attacked or a free-for-all between two feuding wrestlers instead of "comic relief".
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on February 23, 2013, 08:40:20 PM
I am restarting this old thread to note something i found amusing last night...

Went to my new SO's house for dinner along with her two teenage sons (15 and 19).  Both boys are wrestling fans, so i thought i would show them what wrassling USED to be like, and showed them two old NWA tapes.... Starrcade 86 (Night of the Skywalkers), and Great American Bash 87 (War Games)

While they only recognized a few of the wrestlers (Flair, Dusty, Arn, and the Roadies), and mistook Big Bubba Rogers for the Undertaker or Kane (huh?  O_o!  Jim Cornette would have a small-sized cow over THAT one!), overall they enjoyed the tapes and admitted there was far more action than a typical WWE effort anymore (and they were shocked at all the blood, and that often both faces and heels would bleed profusely......ahhh, the joys of modern corporate wrestling eh?)

At the end of the evening, the younger one asked how many more such tapes I had....so i guess they may want to see a few more of the REAL Golden age of Wrestling...
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on February 23, 2013, 10:52:28 PM
Flair's bladed so many times he can bleed just by wiping the sweat off his brow.

But yes, classic NWA (pre-WCW) stuff was pretty wild.

Health risks are a much bigger reason for the lack of blading today.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on February 23, 2013, 11:56:08 PM
WCW was good up until the nWo fizzled out.  WWF hasn't been good since the Austin era, and it wasn't that good then.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on February 24, 2013, 09:59:31 AM
Quote from: ctsignguy on February 23, 2013, 08:40:20 PM
I am restarting this old thread to note something i found amusing last night...

Went to my new SO's house for dinner along with her two teenage sons (15 and 19).  Both boys are wrestling fans, so i thought i would show them what wrassling USED to be like, and showed them two old NWA tapes.... Starrcade 86 (Night of the Skywalkers), and Great American Bash 87 (War Games)

While they only recognized a few of the wrestlers (Flair, Dusty, Arn, and the Roadies), and mistook Big Bubba Rogers for the Undertaker or Kane (huh?  O_o!  Jim Cornette would have a small-sized cow over THAT one!), overall they enjoyed the tapes and admitted there was far more action than a typical WWE effort anymore (and they were shocked at all the blood, and that often both faces and heels would bleed profusely......ahhh, the joys of modern corporate wrestling eh?)

At the end of the evening, the younger one asked how many more such tapes I had....so i guess they may want to see a few more of the REAL Golden age of Wrestling...

The Skywalkers match was revolutionary for its day. IIRC Jim Cornette broke his leg because Big Bubba Rodgers (Ray Traylor) failed to catch him from the fall.

I have introduced my son to some of the glory days of wrestling as well. I have a VHS of Halloween Havoc '89 that we watched, and a number of WCW ppv's from the 1990s, including the horrible nWo Souled Out ppv from 1997 that I showed him as well. He got me the Best of Nitro Vol. 1 last year, which is actually well put together for a WWE-made collection. So he's versed in the glory days of wrestling, both before 1990 and the mid-1990s resurgence.

These days I still watch WWE (though with massive disappointment and complaints), Impact (not a whole lot better) and Ring of Honor (where Jim Cornette was until August). My wrestling DVD collection is growing and I plan on dubbing 20 or so tapes of 90's ppvs, Raws and Nitro's onto disc this year before the tapes succumb to age.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on September 29, 2013, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: Alex on February 24, 2013, 09:59:31 AM
Quote from: ctsignguy on February 23, 2013, 08:40:20 PM
I am restarting this old thread to note something i found amusing last night...

Went to my new SO's house for dinner along with her two teenage sons (15 and 19).  Both boys are wrestling fans, so i thought i would show them what wrassling USED to be like, and showed them two old NWA tapes.... Starrcade 86 (Night of the Skywalkers), and Great American Bash 87 (War Games)

While they only recognized a few of the wrestlers (Flair, Dusty, Arn, and the Roadies), and mistook Big Bubba Rogers for the Undertaker or Kane (huh?  O_o!  Jim Cornette would have a small-sized cow over THAT one!), overall they enjoyed the tapes and admitted there was far more action than a typical WWE effort anymore (and they were shocked at all the blood, and that often both faces and heels would bleed profusely......ahhh, the joys of modern corporate wrestling eh?)

At the end of the evening, the younger one asked how many more such tapes I had....so i guess they may want to see a few more of the REAL Golden age of Wrestling...

The Skywalkers match was revolutionary for its day. IIRC Jim Cornette broke his leg because Big Bubba Rodgers (Ray Traylor) failed to catch him from the fall.

I have introduced my son to some of the glory days of wrestling as well. I have a VHS of Halloween Havoc '89 that we watched, and a number of WCW ppv's from the 1990s, including the horrible nWo Souled Out ppv from 1997 that I showed him as well. He got me the Best of Nitro Vol. 1 last year, which is actually well put together for a WWE-made collection. So he's versed in the glory days of wrestling, both before 1990 and the mid-1990s resurgence.

These days I still watch WWE (though with massive disappointment and complaints), Impact (not a whole lot better) and Ring of Honor (where Jim Cornette was until August). My wrestling DVD collection is growing and I plan on dubbing 20 or so tapes of 90's ppvs, Raws and Nitro's onto disc this year before the tapes succumb to age.

Somehow i have managed to acquire most all of the tapes made of NWA shows prior to WCW in 1991 (only one i am missing is the tape for the Crockett Cupo 86 which is really hard to find and pricey when it does appear!)
Ringmasters (GAB 85, the longer version)
Starrcade 85
GAB 86
Starrcade 86
Crockett Cup 87
GAB 87
Starrcade 87
Crockett Cup 88
(all five Clashes released on VHS... Clash V from Cleveland was pretty wild when Steamboat and Flair went at it!)
GAB 88
Starrcade 88
ChiTown Rumble 89
Wrestle War 89
GAB 89
Halloween Havoc 89
Starrcade 89
Wrestle War 90
Capital Combat (the worst PPV done until the GAB 91....somehow seeing the Horsemen cower in front of a guy in a robot suit destroyed the credibility of the NWA...one of Jim Herd's lousy ideas....i coudnt picture Tully and Arn cowering the way Sid did...JJ Dillon would have had a plan in place to deal with a mere actor!)
GAB 90
Halloween Havoc 90 (at this point, you started hearing a lot less of NWA and far more WCW)
Starrcade 90 (supposedly the winner of Sting/Black Scorpion was to be the first WCW champion...but i do recall the Starrcade PPV advertising still mentioned 'stars of the NWA').


Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on March 30, 2015, 09:56:18 AM
1.5 years later and it's still awful. 
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on March 30, 2015, 05:24:34 PM
I read that last night they jobbed Sting out to the vastly overrated Hunter Helmsley. I knew they would do it, to "prove" that WWF was better than WCW.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on March 31, 2015, 09:49:26 PM
If Sting was going to have a long meaningful WWE career, then I might object to HHH going over. But the guy is in his mid-50's and likely doesn't have that many more matches in him.

He got his moment on the big stage, he's now got the WWE hype & marketing machine behind him, and can now put in a light schedule and get paid well for it on his way to retirement and the Hall of Fame.

It was an attraction match. Nothing more.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on March 31, 2015, 10:04:37 PM
Levesque isn't much younger than Borden. Levesque is a terrible wrestler with horrible mic skills and a douchebag look and attitude. He's the booker, and he constantly books himself to win despite the fact that he's washed up and over the hill and never was that good to begin with. Sting is a living legend, and while he is in the twilight of his career has far more charisma than the boring Helmsley. Helmsley is washed up. Sting is not. If Sting were the booker and had wrestled in the WWF for many years and Helmsley were a WCW import then Sting would have won the match. HHH is at the stage in his career where he needs to be jobbed out to young rising talent, not booking himself to win meaningless matches. Fuck the WWE, Jean Michael Levesque, and Vince McMahon.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: ctsignguy on March 31, 2015, 11:39:32 PM
Worse than awful...it is like since there is no competition, why bother trying?

Having read scuttlebutt that some high-powered investors are unhappy with the current WWE product, returns for investment, etc; and supposedly, a couple of such have filed suit with the notion of stripping control of the WWE from Vince and Co....

*muses* it would be such fun to see the McMahons thrown out and the Crocketts coming in to take over!!
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on April 01, 2015, 12:20:02 AM
It will be Step-On-Me Mac Mahon and Hunter Michael Levesque who will be running the WWE after Wince kicks the bucket. I give it 5 years before either power will be stripped from them or it goes out of business.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on April 01, 2015, 08:04:05 AM
Guy runs in with a briefcase for a cheap win.  THAT'S your championship match at your premier event.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on April 01, 2015, 10:42:06 AM
I haven't caught much of WWE in the last couple of months due to being too busy with other things, moving, etc. But I do keep up with it on my Twitter feed, and while the card at WM31 seemed to go over well, I did gather that the Sting/HHH match was more of a fiasco than anything else. UT appeared to have wrestled well, and the main even had a swerve that seemed very good.

The lack of competition continues to be a detriment to professional wrestling, though the indie scene appears to be more robust. I am still partial to ROH and caught a fantastic show of their's in FL back in November. TNA needs to rebrand a bit more and do less talking segments and more matches. Until they get that down, they'll be treading water. Going to see them at Universal next month either way.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: DeaconG on April 01, 2015, 06:48:02 PM
Wrestling's dead, folks...listen to Jim Cornette on the subject...

https://youtu.be/IOjzJMuXpGo

I remember watching wrestling from the time I was a little boy (All Star Wrestling at 1 PM at Championship Wrestling at 4 PM on Saturdays on UHF TV in Philly), through the 80's and 90's (when at one time we had five wrestling groups in the country [WWE, WCW, AWA, World Class, UWF]) and stopped watching around the early 2000's when ECW went away.

Even with the "dirt sheets" and "kayfabe" I still appreciated good wrestling and a good work.  Incompetence killed the biz and it ain't coming back.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: bugo on April 01, 2015, 08:42:51 PM
Jim Cornette is awesome. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back. I hated him when I was a kid but now I realize that it was because he was such a great heel.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: DeaconG on April 01, 2015, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 01, 2015, 08:42:51 PM
Jim Cornette is awesome. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back. I hated him when I was a kid but now I realize that it was because he was such a great heel.

Go find his five part series on why he left Ring of Honor.  You'll alternately laugh your ass off and make you want to shoot someone.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: texaskdog on April 02, 2015, 10:55:39 AM
Quote from: DeaconG on April 01, 2015, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 01, 2015, 08:42:51 PM
Jim Cornette is awesome. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back. I hated him when I was a kid but now I realize that it was because he was such a great heel.

Go find his five part series on why he left Ring of Honor.  You'll alternately laugh your ass off and make you want to shoot someone.

must...find...

ROH is so boring
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: DeaconG on April 02, 2015, 11:50:29 AM
Quote from: texaskdog on April 02, 2015, 10:55:39 AM
Quote from: DeaconG on April 01, 2015, 09:06:42 PM
Quote from: bugo on April 01, 2015, 08:42:51 PM
Jim Cornette is awesome. He tells it like it is and doesn't hold back. I hated him when I was a kid but now I realize that it was because he was such a great heel.

Go find his five part series on why he left Ring of Honor.  You'll alternately laugh your ass off and make you want to shoot someone.

must...find...

ROH is so boring

Here's Part 1:

https://youtu.be/Db_AcJIRe6M

Incompetence, whiny-ass bullshit and some straight up stupidity...it basically put Jim's health at risk and he decided to walk away before he became a statistic.  Unfortunately I've worked for a few companies like this, and yeah, it ain't fun at all.

EDIT: Apparently Parts 2 thru 5 have disappeared from YouTube...damn shame, because he gets into serious specifics on what happened.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on April 04, 2015, 03:08:34 PM
When you have the time, I highly encourage fans to listen to the podcasts of Jim Cornette and Jim Ross (as well as Chris Jericho, Steve Austin, and Colt Cabana). So much of the "hows and whys" are explained, along with the commentary on why some things shouldn't be done they way they are. Cornette's easy to dislike, but you learn that despite that he's hard-headed and "old-school" to some, he cares way too much about the business to be involved while others screw it up.

Part of me wishes ROH was available to view in my area. Then part of me is glad I can't.

I won't sit and argue over if HHH is a hack over Sting or not. That match at WM31 was more of an excuse to capture older viewers familiar with Sting, and bringing out the DX and nWo factions at the end (never mind that for the most part Sting was at war with the nWo in WCW) and it becomes clear - it was a way to get a bunch of guys from the Attitude Era and the Monday Night Wars on the show - and to drive interest in the Network. My wife and I figured that out as soon as they announces the match was "no DQ."

The Undertaker match...left me underwhelmed. There was far too little storyline build-up, there was no reason for me to care about it. If I'm booking Undertaker, it's to have him give a promo about how "this current vessel has become weak and frail, and when the time comes the spirit of the Undertaker will return." And then walk away. Does two things - one, "the Undertaker" hasn't failed or given up - just the "body" he was using. Two, it sets it up for the character to return in the future, once they find someone good enough to play that role.

The whole cashing in the MITB thing was new - no one before had cashed it in DURING a match and had that match become a triple threat. It did set up the future pretty well - Brock didn't lose, Roman gets screwed, and a Rollins/Reigns program runs through the summer while Brock takes his time off.

(Yes, I'm fully aware I'm a nerd about this.)

One idea that was bouncing around in my head in the realm of "providing content for the Network" - license or sell network "airtime" to ROH or TNA or OVW or any of the other groups that produce TV content.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: stormwatch7721 on April 04, 2015, 03:56:55 PM
The part I hated about WrestleMania 31 was Stephanie McMahon and Triple H claiming the own the stadium. I just wish "The Authority"
storyline would somehow end.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on April 04, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
Lance Storm made a great point on (I think) Jim Cornette's podcast (it might have been Chris Jericho's - he did both recently) - the Mr. McMahon/Corporation/Authority storyline has been in play for over 20 years. The fans have been conditioned to "hate" those in charge. So why is there surprise when they book something to happen or someone to go over and the fans react negatively? They've only been pushing that reaction for 20+ years.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: SSOWorld on April 05, 2015, 01:47:19 AM
WCW did and TNA does the same damn thing due to having to keep up the competitive nature and keep up with WWE.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 09:50:27 AM
Have listened to just about every one of Jim Ross' podcast. The two interviews with Jim Cornette were especially good. Listening to them does make one long for the old territory days, but that concept cannot exist in today's world of instant information due to social media.

Like bugo, I also hated Cornette as a kid. That's definitely a testament to how good of a heel he was.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on April 05, 2015, 07:19:09 PM
Crappy booking and storylines can still be overcome.

I'm interested in how they are booking Sheamus' return as a heel. His face run went on for far too long and made the character soft.

Bring back managers for the heels and let THEM draw the heat and break the rules (of course, there have to be rules to break in the first place) instead of "the authority." The trouble with that is there are very few good managers around - because they've not had any for so long.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Alex on April 05, 2015, 07:58:43 PM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on April 05, 2015, 07:19:09 PM
Crappy booking and storylines can still be overcome.

I'm interested in how they are booking Sheamus' return as a heel. His face run went on for far too long and made the character soft.

Bring back managers for the heels and let THEM draw the heat and break the rules (of course, there have to be rules to break in the first place) instead of "the authority." The trouble with that is there are very few good managers around - because they've not had any for so long.

That and Vince generally hates the concept of managers.

Not everyone can be Paul Heyman, but you don't have to be at that level to help offset someone who lacks in their mic work.

Truth Martini does a good job in ROH and at one point was managing five wrestlers (He even briefly managed the rebranded Head Bangers who wore masks as the Guardians of Truth). I like his work with the heel turn of Jay Lethal.

Valets still have a place too, look at how Maria Kanellis works well in drawing heat with the Kingdom.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Stratuscaster on April 05, 2015, 09:21:50 PM
Agreed (taking your word for ROH, because Sinclair doesn't have an affiliate in Chicago.)

Really, overall, they just need to slow the heck down and craft some stories that run for more than 6 weeks.
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: DeaconG on April 05, 2015, 09:32:04 PM
Quote from: Stratuscaster on April 04, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
Lance Storm made a great point on (I think) Jim Cornette's podcast (it might have been Chris Jericho's - he did both recently) - the Mr. McMahon/Corporation/Authority storyline has been in play for over 20 years. The fans have been conditioned to "hate" those in charge. So why is there surprise when they book something to happen or someone to go over and the fans react negatively? They've only been pushing that reaction for 20+ years.

It was with Jim Cornette and I remember listening to it.  Gee, they wonder why the crowd tried to disrupt the matches with the chants?  They want what they want and WWE isn't giving it to them, and if they're being encouraged to do it, then why be surprised?

They need to go back to booking instead of scripting, as Jim Cornette described it the way it used to be: "The booker tells the guys 'Look, this is the guy who wins, I need ten minutes, work it out', then they get together with the ref and figure out how they're gonna work the match; if they want to do something different they run it by the booker and if he approves they go with it. That way the wrestlers figure out what they're supposed to do and what works instead of having their every move scripted."

To quote the late Rick Rude, "White hat...black hat...what more do you need?"
Title: Re: WWE sucks
Post by: Billy F 1988 on April 15, 2015, 12:15:25 AM
WWE to me is a joke now that we all know how that is. I've only watched the "true" WWF Monday Night RAW on several occasions, some Nitro and Thunder here and there, but then afterwards, about 2003 on forward, I never watched WWE again. It's junk. There's no real sense of pride in the championships they bill. I mean, sure, if one wins a certain title, it's an accomplishment, but back in the WWF vs. WCW days, championships meant way more than they are now. Sadly, we lose out on the greatest champions of this sport like Mark Callaway (The Undertaker), Glenn Jacobs (the BEST performer as Kane), Paul Bearer, their legendary manager, Ravishing Rick Rude, "Nature Boy" Ric Flair, "Macho Man" Randy Savage, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Shawn Michaels, Stone Cold Steve Austin and a whole bunch of other GOOD WWE wrestlers to fucking filth and vermin of so-called "WWE Superstars" and greedy sons-of-bitches like one Vinny Mac? Yeah. Don't like him. HHH? Phooey. Flat junk. He was so in his prime when he fought against HBK, but now he's nothing but a duplicitous, power hungry sloth. Shane McMahon? Don't know him. Vickie Guerrero...snooty bitch is all I can think of her. And for good ole Chavo, Eddie's uncle, hypocrite! I mean, I can list a whole bunch more that I can easily name them as filthy vermin. I'd pay to see Stone Cold lay the stunner on Brock Lesnar because the bottom line on him is that he's too far gone from bottom line. He just killed every fitting piece of Undertaker's legacy, even his 21-0 winning WrestleMania streak. If 2015 is the last time we see the Dead Man walk to the squared circle, then let him lay Brock Lesnar six feet under! Rest in piss, WWE! These legends are fading thanks to filthy vermin like the McMahon's, HHH, and others sending the product far beyond bottom line.

Personally, if the WWE fell under, I would laugh. It deserves the laughing stock hat! It's people like Vince McMahon, Brock Lesnar, HHH and the fat pig, a la Paul Heyman, that are bringing the company under deep water. They've pretty much killed whatever legacy is left for professional wrestling. Jim Ross is out, and we're stuck with a former CBS war reporter in his place, a la the man of whom he quotes a nobody of an anonymous RAW/SMACKDOWN general manager, Michael Cole (and yes, he worked for CBS before heading to WWE). I guess Jerry "The King" Lawler is next in line to hit the road soon. Too bad. I kinda liked The King's color commentary when Vince was doing it and even with JR after the fact.

Oh, what about them...divas? Diva my rear hind skin! Give me back the true divas like that of Chyna, Sable, and Trish Stratus...and those before them!